Raising Financially Savvy Kids: An Intimate Conversation with Lindsey + Doug Vestal

More about my guest:
Doug Vestal, PhD, is my husband of 20 years and business coach for 10 years join me for this intimate conversation. 

Doug Vestal is a former finance risk manager turned entrepreneur.    He is the owner of Freedom of Practice where he helps OTs break the shackles of the insurance world by starting their own private pay practice.  He is helping OTs reclaim their time freedom, money freedom and treatment freedom by becoming the courageous therapist who creates jobs, not just has a job.  The best job he's ever had is being a Dad to 2 wonderful kids.  He and his wife run their businesses around prioritizing family time, not the other way around.

He is the author of the upcoming book, Financial Freedom for Ots: your stress-free guide to money. 

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Transcript

Lindsey Vestal Today's episode is kind of a special, unique episode where I get very personal because I am joined by my husband of 22 years, Dr. Doug Vestal. He is a former finance risk manager turned entrepreneur. He is the owner of Freedom of Practice, where he helps OTs break the shackles of the insurance world by starting their own private pay practice. Just like he helped me do over a decade ago in New York City. He is helping OTs reclaim their time Freedom, money, freedom and treatment. Freedom by becoming the courageous therapist who creates jobs, not just has a job. The best job he's ever had is being a dad to our two wonderful kids, Avery and Liam. Doug and I really enjoy running our businesses around prioritizing family time, not the other way around. Doug is also the author of his upcoming book, Financial Freedom for OTs Your Stress Free Guide to Money. I am so excited to share this conversation with you today where Doug and I get really personal and really specific around our own personal philosophies around money, wealth and sharing those conversations with our children. New and seasoned OTs are finding their calling in Pelvic health. After all, what's more ADL than sex, peeing and poop? But here's the question What does it take to become a successful, fulfilled and thriving OT in Pelvic health? How do you go from beginner to seasons and everything in between? Those are the questions and this podcast will give you the answers. We are inspired OTs, we are out of the box OTs, we are Pelvic health OTs. I'm your host Lindsey Vestal and welcome to the OTs and Pelvic health Podcast. Welcome to the Autism Pelvic health podcast. I'm really excited that you're here. I cannot wait to have this very personal conversation with you today. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. 

Lindsey Vestal You know, I was just reminiscing. I've been an entrepreneur for ten years now and we have been married 22 years in about a couple of months. Yeah. And when I became an entrepreneur, we had very young children. I think they were zero and two at the time. Yeah. And so it's been a pretty interesting journey given that our kids are 12 and ten now, just to think about sort of how we now have two entrepreneurs in the family, which was not the case when I got started ten years ago. You were still on Wall Street at that time? Yeah. And now we have a 12 and a ten year old who are very interested in money, very interested in exercising agency over choice and how they spend their money. And so I really wanted to talk today a little bit about personal finance as it relates to raising children. Of course, this is under the lens of us, the fact that we are entrepreneurs. It doesn't have to be. That's just sort of where what we're bringing to the table. But you have to see, as your wife, you're a little obsessed with this topic. And I want to know why. And before we get into that, though, I'd love to share with the audience a little bit about kind of like our personal philosophy and why and what it is that you want the kids to know. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah. So I think that I mean, money is a huge topic in our household and it's really important to me. So our 12 year old, our daughter and our son is ten and it is really important to me as their father that I am raising financially capable and confident little humans. I think, you know, I'm working on a book for personal finance for OTs that's going to be coming out in a few months and financial freedom for OTs. And the more I peel back these layers of onion as it relates to money. The more and more I see that the way we are raised in the conversations that we have with our children and the conversations that we had as kids really shapes our viewpoint on money. Is it something to covet? Is it something to avoid? Is it something to be scared of? Is it something to to aspire to? And many times as we get to our adult life, the money fruits that we see or the lack of money fruits comes from the money roots that we had experienced as a child. And so it is really, really important to me to raise financially capable and confident kids because, you know, let's be honest. Right. When they leave the house. I read a statistic the other day, which is that you have about 19 years with your kids, eight years when they're living with you. And then if you add up the total sum that you're going to spend with your kids throughout the rest of your life after they leave your home, it's about another year. So you have 19 years. And for me, this dealing with money, being confident around money, knowing what to look out for and knowing how it works really goes to the root of being a fully capable and functioning adult. Because at the end of the day, money just gives you choices and it gives you the ability to act from a place of confidence and a place of abundance rather than a place of fear and scarcity. And that's that's what I want for our kids. I don't want them getting out of the house and taking out tons of credit card debt or not knowing how mortgages work or being behind on their retirement savings or having to stick with a job that really doesn't fulfill them because they don't have the financial means to be able to to leave that situation. To me, like as a parent, that would be the worst situations that I didn't give them and teach them how to have agency over their own choices. 

Lindsey Vestal I absolutely agree. And I've really enjoyed co-parenting with you and having the same philosophy on this, but I'd love to share with everyone a little bit like Boots on the Ground. What does that look like? What are things that we as a couple are actively doing to help them grow with this exact set of ideals and ethos that you've just described? 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah, so we've done some really practical stuff on a day to day and week to week basis, but I think the biggest philosophy is that I find so many times as adults like The Oats that I support through Freedom of Practice and private MBA, who want to take back more freedom of their time and treatment, freedom and in money freedom is there's this over arching sense of guilt about charging for your services, about charging for your labor. And I think a lot of that starts when we're younger. And one of the ways that I find that starts is that when we're younger and we're asked to do things by either parental figures or other people of authority in our life, we're told as children, your contribution doesn't really matter. You have to do this because you're a good person and so therefore I'm not going to pay you for it. So the most classic example is our daughter, who's 12. She started a dog walking business and she mentioned this to one of her teachers. And the teacher said to her, look, maybe I'll have you walk the dog, but I'm not going to be able to pay you. And the immediate conversation we had with her was, Avery, your labor is valuable, your contribution is valuable. That is not a good customer. And I think we need to have these conversations very early on so that we raise confident children who feel that, yes, I do really good work and I deserve to be compensated for it. And it has no bearing about whether or not a good person or a bad person it is okay to receive money for our labor because I just like you and I don't want our children to feel undervalued and that their contribution doesn't doesn't matter. And so and I think that starts at a really, really young age. And so one of the things that we've instituted is just a simple point system in our house. So we have normal chores that the kids have to do, and that's just part of being in our family unit, you know, cleaning their room and and things like this. But I want them interested in earning money and I want them interested in getting that satisfaction and a reward for receiving compensation for for for their labor. And so one of the things we have is a point system where we've designed a variety of different activities that are outside the normal set of chores, and they will get paid a certain amount of money for this certain amount of points. They are responsible for keeping track of what their activities are. They're responsible for keeping track of their number of points. We pay them every Saturday. And the way that we pay them is interesting because they don't get the full amount, so we will pay them, but they have to save a certain percentage of that money. And we've actually set up a Roth IRA. So these individual retirement accounts for our kids and because it's active compensation, you can have a Roth IRA for for minors. It's just in a custodial account. And so we put about 50% of what they earn into that Roth IRA. So they're left with another 50%. And then to incentivize them around savings, because we want to make saving and investing an exciting topic and something that they really feel rewarded for because let's be honest, you know, you save and invest for four decades to reap the fruits of the labor. And for kids, you know, who want the candy now, who want the satisfaction now, like delaying this gratification can be really, really tough. And so we want to. But that's the key to building wealth long term is getting into the habit of delaying your gratification. And so we pay them the 50%, we save the 50%. But then as the reward, the instantaneous reward for saving that 50%, whatever amount they save, we will match that amount and add that on to their savings. And so they it's almost like an employee match for a 401K or 403B? Yeah, because we want to we want to show them that, hey, these things can add up really, really, super quickly and that there's an advantage because right now at ten and 12, it's hard for them to see what the advantage. Is. But if they know, Hey, I earned $100. I don't get to see 50 of it because it immediately gets, say, if I get another 50. Well, mom and dad are going to tack on another $25 that I can immediately start using. They start to get excited about it because then it becomes like, well, let me earn even more money because I want to get more of that match going. And the more they earn because it's set up on a percentage system, the more they're actually saving for it for a long term. So that's one of the concrete things that we've done and in our household. 

Lindsey Vestal I am so curious because full transparency here. When we first met 22 years ago, I was in debt. I was very much into the habit of putting gas on a credit card, you know, any sort of shopping, shopping excursion on a credit card. And I think I had 7 or $8000 in in debt when I first. 

Dr. Doug Vestal I remember. 

Lindsey Vestal When I first met you. And, you know, I, I did not we did not have these kind of kind of conversations in my household growing up. In fact, money felt like something that was really off limits, that was very, you know, coveted and precious and and scarce, sparse. And so I, you know, through this journey of our 22 years together, really have made quite a few changes and seeing things really differently. But I feel like even though I. What were you, 20 when I met you? 

Dr. Doug Vestal What was I know I was 22. 

Lindsey Vestal 22, 22. Just a baby when I met you. But you always kind of had this clarity of thought. Like, it's definitely grown. It's advanced in your, your vast variety of of business opportunities and growth. But for the most part, Doug, you definitely had this strong vision regarding savings and delaying gratification. Can you tell us a little bit about where that came from? I have some super exciting news for you. OT Pioneers Intro to Pelvic Floor therapy is opening for enrollment January 13th through the 17th 2025. This is your chance to dive into a 100% online course. With lifetime access, you'll get five group mentoring calls with me and two free months inside our off social media private community Pelvic OTP's United. Plus, we're hosting an optional in-person lab in Cleveland on February 21st and 22nd. Please come join over 1500 other OTs who have already taken the leap. I can't wait to see you inside OT Pioneers Enrollment January 13th through 17th 2025. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Well, it's a good thing you didn't meet me when I was 16 or 17. It would have been very it would have been very different. I think it really comes from my parents and not probably in the way that you think. I mean, I mention all this stuff as as kids, but my parents got divorced when I was very young. I was seven, I believe, when they got divorced. My mom wasn't working at the time. She was a stay at home mom. My dad was the primary breadwinner. They were just in the process. I think he had gotten a couple of promOTons at work. And so, you know, we were living in North Carolina and he was in the process of moving us to a larger house. And then they they got divorced. And so growing up in a in a split family, going back and forth between my mom's house and my dad's house, money was always a major source of stress. My mom went back and became a middle school teacher, and my dad's career had never really recovered from all of the stress and trauma of of the divorce. And so money was a constant source of stress. And I lived with my dad for the last three years of of high school. And on the outside, he looked very successful. So he had a good job. He worked in pharmaceutical regulatory affairs, so getting drugs and stuff approved by the FDA. We lived in a nice neighborhood for for the area. He always drove a new car. And so on the outside, things looked great. But then we would go out to dinner and his credit cards would get declined and he would pull out the second credit card and that would also get declined. And then by the time he got to the fourth or fifth credit card, it would go through. And I just I couldn't figure out, like as a 15 year old, 16 year old, the person that you look up to that supposed to have it all figured out, right? You always put your parents and adults on a pedestal. Like, why was this so hard? Why was it stressful? You know? And he would have debt collectors who were calling. He took out a second mortgage on his house. At the time, he had remarried a woman who eventually had to go on Social Security disability. And so we were getting $1,000 a month for me as a dependent and. It was told to me that that money was being set aside for my college. So it was like, Hey, we'll have college paid for you and everything. And lo and behold, I was about to go away. I was going to go to Georgia Tech and in Atlanta facing out of state tuition. And he pulled me aside and he was like, that money's gone. And that was really like the straw that broke the camel's back. And I was like, how could that be? How could that be gone? You're supposed to be setting aside. And so was all these financial missteps that I was in. And at the time, I was incredibly angry at him and everything, but I just I couldn't figure it out. And so I started reading up a lot about personal finance or I should say, like all along the way, money was one of these things that was always held over you, right? Especially coming from a divorced family where both parents, I think, wanted to, you know, do the best they could for the kids. But there was always kind of a quid pro quo when they would buy things like you act a certain way. So therefore, you get this. If you don't act that way, you don't get this or I'm buying these things because I want you to do b, c And so I always felt under the thumb of someone else, for lack of a better word. And so I was like, wait a minute. Like you're controlling me for for from a stance of, of money, but at the same time you're mismanaging all of your money. And so it was really confusing, quite frankly. And so that like made me dive into the world of personal finance, which was like, how could someone so smart be so bad, had money. And, and unfortunately, that's like, you know, most of us. And so from that, from that time, like really when I was 17, I was like, I want agency, I want choice. I don't want to be controlled by somebody else. I want to be able to make my own decisions and live the life the way that I want to. And so that led me down that rabbit hole of going like, okay, how does money actually work? Like, how do people save and invest who are just normal, everyday Joes? And it was around this time that I really influential book came out called Millionaire Next Door, where they really, through data and through surveys analyzed that people who become wealthy just delay their gratification. They don't have super high paying jobs. They're not smarter than anybody else. They're not living in big, fancy homes. And so it really for me, at a really key pivOTl point in my life, through a lot of stress, the light bulb went off. I'm like, okay, I need to change my relationship with finances and with money and start prioritizing the long term, you know, the next ten, 20 years versus what I want today. And so I think when you go through that sort of situation, it really sort of it's the catalyst to to make you see the light at the end of the tunnel. 

Lindsey Vestal That's that's an incredible story. And I've I've obviously heard you we've actually talked about it many, many times, but kind of heard it in a new way in light of the fact that, you know, we're talking about this publicly on the podcast. And I think what really stood out for me was how in this is like a microcosm of how we've all experienced some some trauma or stressors with money is like for many people, money and their relationship with money is so strained. Either it's like in your case, a matter of control and a matter of performance. We want you to do this and so we'll give you this. And I think so many of us have our own unique stories regarding how money has changed our not only our perception of what's possible, but like our relationships with people, whether we stop to analyze it or not. And I think, you know, one of my favorite stories that I think you might have told at the second annual Oats and Pelvic health Summit was about the janitor. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah. 

Lindsey Vestal Ronald Read, Can you tell us? 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah. So Ronald Read was he lived in Vermont and he passed away in 2014 at the age of 92. And for his entire life, he was either a gas station attendant or he was a janitor. So blue collar worker never made a lot of money. He lived in the same house that he bought when he was 37. He drove used cars, lived a very simple life. His favorite occupation was chopping wood. But then when he passed away at age 92, he surprised everybody in the town because he had an estate worth $8 million and he contributed it. At the time of his death. He donated, I think it was $6 million to his local hospital. Little and $2 million to the library. And so he is he epitomizes what they talk about in the book Millionaire Next Door of just everyday people who are prioritizing, you know, living below their means, living a more simple life that comes with a lot less stress. But saving 20% of their paycheck, 30% of their paycheck and doing that for decades, you know, they're doing it slowly. It's not an overnight thing. It's not a risky thing. It is not. But it's about as exciting as watching paint dry, you know, which is what it should be. And I just think he's the perfect example also, because we tend to confuse spending and what we see publicly from a money perspective versus with the way money actually works. And so we see people driving really fancy cars and living really fancy and living in really fancy houses and we go, they must be doing really well. But you just look at the data and most people are still living paycheck to paycheck. They are maxed out on a monthly basis, which I mean, we know creates lots of stress. Like financial stress is the number one leading cause of divorce in America. You know, 72% of Americans say that they're stressed about money every single month. And I think a lot of that is because we have this vision of somebody else's life that we need to live, you know, versus living our own life. And Ronald Read is a great example because he was able to do the things that he wanted to do and he was able to build, you know, this great financial security and ultimately give back to his community. $6 million to a local hospital, $2 million to the to what library? What an amazing legacy to leave. 

Lindsey Vestal Doug, what are one of the top professions that actually comprise millionaires in our country? 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah, like we always think that it's somebody who works on Wall Street or an entertainer or a CEO. But there's been numerous studies on this. And one of the top professions, top five professions that become millionaires in their lifetime is a teacher, a schoolteacher, which I love that because, I mean, unfortunately, we know schoolteachers are not as well compensated as they should be. Right. And that generally they're actually below that threshold. But they have very long careers and they diligently save through those careers, you know, and they're taking advantage of the eighth wonder of the world, which is compound interest. They're letting their money work for them. And so I think also the average age of the millionaire is around 59 or 60. So these are not people, you know, in their early 20s or 30s, but it's the actions they took in their 20s and 30s that set them up to become that in their 50s and that's where they delayed gratification comes in and that's where operating from our future self comes in. And I think it's incredibly inspiring because if you look, you know, at the average compensation for like your patient or therapist, you know, it's well above the average teacher salary. And so, you know, if we can find a way through budgeting, through unique monthly strategies, through cutting down, through having a side hustle to earn some extra income, to start seeing clients privately through your own practice, you know, this is something that is incredibly achievable for all of us. And let me just be clear. It's not going to happen next year. It's not going to happen five years from now, but you're going to look back 15, 20 years from now. Just absolutely thinking to yourself that you got started today, won't it? 

Lindsey Vestal When you think back at our last 22 years together, even though when I met you, you had this clarity of thought, You know, you had these experiences that really helped you see the world through this way. What's one thing that one or 1 or 2 things that comes to mind for you that really move the needle for us? A change we might have made, something that we might have done that kind of propelled us forward in this direction. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah, we're not perfect. And so when the thing that I always talk about is when we were living in New York City and we, you know, as you mentioned, Avery was two and Liam was six weeks old, basically, and we moved into a neighborhood and we moved into an apartment that slowly over time, over about a year or a year and a half, just we realized that we were living way above our means. We were living in Battery Park City. It was a one bedroom with they couldn't call it a two bedroom because the second room didn't have a closet in it. But the. That's where we were, both kids in daycare there. My parents came up to help us out with the kids. And so you and I went off to a hotel room and we woke up the next morning and we were looking around and we were talking that night about how stressed we were and how tough things were financially. I was building my career on Wall Street. We were trying to get functional pelvis off the ground. We were trying to make rent every single month. And we looked around the hotel room and we said like. Isn't this size enough for what we need right now? And we envisioned sitting there like, that charging table could go over here in this corner. We can have a dining room table that folds out from the wall. You got to remember, this is Manhattan. So spaces are always going to be very small. And couldn't we have, you know, this other place for some bunk beds eventually. And so we went back with, like, this new energy. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, we don't have to stay stuck in that apartment and in that daycare. Yes, it sure it's familiar. We like the neighborhood. There's nothing the matter with that. And so then we started investigating and we found a really, can I say, crappy one bedroom. 

Lindsey Vestal It's a modest I don't know. It was crappy. 

Dr. Doug Vestal I can show your audience the pictures and let them be the judge. One bedroom apartment and in Chinatown. And so we made the switch and we moved ourselves with two kids into a one bedroom apartment in Chinatown. We sent the kids to day care in Chinatown, which was absolutely fantastic daycare. And between those two things alone, we reduced our overhead and monthly expenses by 50% overnight. And then what we did was we sent all of that extra money to your student loans to pay off your student loans as fast as possible. In the meantime, I think I made managing director at the investment bank. I made I was working it. And I know for sure I was the only managing director on Wall Street who lived in a really crummy one bedroom apartment with with two kids. But we didn't care. We didn't care what people thought about it at the time because we were working on these bigger goals. And I think that just not feeling the pressure to keep up with the Joneses and to prioritize saving for retirement and paying off your student loans and doing really whatever it took. You know, we stayed in that apartment for, what, almost four years. 

Lindsey Vestal Before moving to Paris, where we stayed up until that point. 

Dr. Doug Vestal And what was amazing through that experience was we really realized that we don't need as much space, that actually having a simpler life made us closer as a couple because now money wasn't as stressful. Each month we had a little bit of breathing room, so we finally started going out on date nights on a regular basis. And on those date nights we would talk about finances. It was really dorky. We'd bring out like this binder and, you know, talk about like finances and planning and everything, and I'd be like the first half, and then we go on the actual day after, after that. And it was really great for the kids because even though we had transformed the living room, we put up a temporary wall. If anybody lives in New York City, you can you can picture this perfectly. We put up a temporary wall where the kids were, which really shared a wall with our bedroom. Our kids still thought we were too far away, you know, And we just I have such amazing memories from that apartment because we were so close knit and the kids were just at the perfect age to be able to do it. And I think sometimes we just have to think creatively and realize that these things we do are not forever like. And I think we get really stuck thinking this one decision is going to be for the rest of our life. But in many cases, these things are just temporary and you can recover from them even if you make a mistake, even if you make the wrong decision. If we decided that we didn't like this apartment or we didn't like that neighborhood, we could have just moved back. It wasn't like they closed the gates of the neighborhood. You know, we could have gone back very easily. And so I think, like just realizing that things are not final allows you to to to open up to some of these possibilities. 

Lindsey Vestal Yeah, I love that. I love that story. And one of the things, too, that you had said, which is I think a big part of our personal philosophy too, is like, what can we change that really moves the needle? You had mentioned that rent as well as childcare enabled us changing those two variables enabled us to save 50%, and I will be the first to tell you that we don't clip coupons. You know, we we aren't. Someone is looking. We're not sweating the small stuff when we need to make a change. We've always kind of look at looked at the big ticket items. And that has enabled us also, I think, to to be able to move the needle forward and not feel like it's death by a thousand cuts. Because the other thing that I want to point out here is that during the process of all of this, none of this felt like sacrifice, at least not to me. I don't know what your experience was, but all of it felt like a common goal that I immediately felt the reduction of stress and that that made the world of difference for me. Feeling confident continue to do house calls to continue doing building my business was because I knew that a little bit of stress and as a couple I had never felt closer to you because I really knew. That we were aligned and that whatever I had lost in square foOTge, I'd gained in closeness and comfort with you. And that to me was a very eye opening moment for me because living in Manhattan, you can spend your money 1001 ways. You know, it's I think I've heard it described as like the playground for adults, You know, like there's just so many temptations that just walking down the street, you can you can be tempted by. And so another thing that I'd like to ask you is how important is it for a couple to be on the same page regarding these goals? 

Dr. Doug Vestal I think it's incredibly important. I mean, you just mentioned it like one of the things that was very palpable was our level of stress went down dramatically. So like we cut our monthly expenses by 50%. But I think our level of stress went down by 80 or 90% because now we weren't sweating the small stuff and we weren't feeling like we had to constantly count every single thing. And I think that that's the trick or the secret or whatever from a couple's perspective, or at least what worked for us was really looking at the long term vision of where we wanted to be as a couple. What were the things that we wanted to be able to do five years from now? What was the type of retirement we wanted to be able to have? What were the opportunities we wanted to be able to give our kids? What was the travel that we wanted to do? What were the things that were really actually meaningful? Because I think at the end of the day, you know, life takes over, right? We get into routines. We get into just a way of living that we never really step back and bring a lot of awareness to. And sometimes it can be out of alignment, you know, and not like a huge out of alignment, but just like, is that thing that I'm spending the money on really that important to me? Or is it more important to me that I can take off two weeks without stress and take our kids somewhere and create memories? And it was those bigger things that we shared in common as as a goal that I think allowed us to make some of those short term sacrifices. And so I think, you know, sitting down as a couple and really a going through your money stories from you as a kid so that there's more of an understanding of of where books people are entering the relationship and that foundation but then operating from the future as a couple of the things that are really important to you, I think is really have it really I'm contagious. You know, otherwise money fights will continue. You know if you're not on the on the same page. 

Lindsey Vestal Are there any resources or any places you can point people to learn a little bit more about that? Because I think it's just not something we're talking about enough, as you know, as a society. So either from the aspect of relationship and kind of getting on the same page or just learning about sort of this overarching philosophy. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Yeah, I would say there's two things. I'll make a shameless plug. So one is I have the book coming up. So Financial freedom for What's your stress free guide to money that should be available this, this fall? So I would highly recommend everybody check that out. We I go into detail about money stories and money, trauma and roots and really understanding that so that then we can focus on all of the more, you know, practical aspects of paying off your student loans and budgeting and investing. But then I also have a couples guide for discussing money. And so some exercises to walk couples through that so they can meet on equal terms and without judgment to start talking. You could link it in the show notes if you if you want to, if it's of interest to people. 

Lindsey Vestal Okay. Awesome. And then just to bring things full circle, when we're imagining our kids are just 12 and ten now, but imagine them in their 20s, you know, they're starting their first careers. What are some of the core principles or philosophies or takeaways you hope they have from this point system and from, you know, these these really candid conversations that we're having with them now? 

Dr. Doug Vestal Well, I think we didn't really touch on it, but one of the big things that we talked about with our kids now that we're trying to raise entrepreneurs, but just because we're both entrepreneurs, it comes up so much in the House is, you know, particularly our daughter. She's starting to get up the age where she really is interested in making money and she's observing the jobs that are around her. And she's going, you know, it's kind of like a hat, like she's trying it on like, does this fit? Like, what would this be like? What would it be like to be a barista? What would it be like to work in this other other environment? And so one of the things that we keep talking about with the kids is, yes, find your passion. But also at the end of the day, you have the skills and the ability to generate income with those. Skills. So our daughter is a great photographer. I don't know how she developed the skills. She's just she's one of these people who has a natural eye for it. And so we've been talking to her like, yes, you could go as a teenager. And my first job was bagging groceries. So I'm not above that. You know about groceries for three years in high school? Yes. You could go and you could work in a grocery store. You could work as a result. But you also have a skill in photography. And why not create little small business where you're going into homes that are just listed and doing the fantastic photos for the listing? You know, a real estate agent will pay you 400 $600 to get really classy photos. And that's a great business for a high school student to pursue. And so as we're raising the kids and as we're talking with them, we want to make entrepreneurship an option for them in the sense that they feel like it's not out of reach for them, that they have some agency if they want to do that. They want to work for someone else. That's fantastic. But it's really demystifying it from a really early age so that they are aware this is even a possibility. And that I always like to say an entrepreneur is just someone who solves problems for money. You know, And so get really good at solving problems and go find people who have that problem and would gladly pay you for it. Like a real estate agent who is alternatively just clicking really dark photos using their iPhone and their listings. Just going to sit there for months versus having really beautiful photographs that the listing moves in a couple of weeks. 

Lindsey Vestal Supporting a local kid. Exactly. Etc.. Yeah. That's awesome. Why? Why would you why why do you think entrepreneurship is so important to you? 

Dr. Doug Vestal I mean, I could. I could. That's probably like a whole Podcast because I could go on for it forever. Well, I think I really enjoy solving problems. And so for for me personally, I get really excited about the level of agency and autonomy and independence to be able to solve problems. And I think that you can make a tremendous impact from entrepreneurship, you know, and I think that it's something that once you experience it, it's very hard to go go back. And I mean, look, I like you don't have to own a company to be an entrepreneur. You know, when I was I mentioned I bagged groceries, right. So when I was in high school, I worked at Winn-Dixie. If anybody anybody's from North Carolina, you know, the type of grocery store Winn-Dixie is, it was not a classy grocery store in the midst of everybody else. If we didn't have customers, everybody else, all the cashiers would just gossip, talk amongst themselves, go out for a smoke break, and I would go to the end of the aisles and start organizing stuff and doing everything cause I just couldn't stand still. I would see a problem and I'd have to jump in and start doing it. And over time, the manager of the store saw that and then put me in charge of accounting for the grocery store. So I was in charge of counting all the money and making the big deposit. I was 17 years old and had a key to the to the safe, but it was like that's the mentality of an entrepreneur. Like you don't have to work for yourself to do that. But if like that's the type of roll up your sleeves and like, let's get this done, then I think it's a perfect personality fit. 

Lindsey Vestal And I will say that even well before you knew you were going to be an entrepreneur, you've always enjoyed solving problems, your background. You have a master's in financial math. Yeah. And a Ph.D. in statistics. 

Dr. Doug Vestal And applied probability. 

Lindsey Vestal High probability. So you've really you've always enjoyed kind of, you know, looking at something that's fairly complex and demystifying it and making it really approachable and enjoying sort of unraveling the layers that are there that can then maybe result in the simplicity of a solved equation. I don't know. I have a background in English. This is very foreign to me. But I as I'm talking to you now, I'm kind of putting pieces together just from what I know about your background and hearing you talk now full circle and, you know, getting the the pleasure of seeing you become an entrepreneur because, you know, I know like myself, neither one of us had family members that were entrepreneurs. It was not in the cards for for me, if this was it for you, did you ever aspire to to be an entrepreneur? 

Dr. Doug Vestal No, I don't. I don't think so. I mean, coming up in North Carolina and in the 80s, it was you didn't know entrepreneurs like you. You went and you worked for someone else. And that was the standard sure path to to to greatness was you need to go work for for somewhere else. But I think, you know, for you it was kind of, well, if I want to pursue pelvic health, the best way to do it. And sometimes the. 

Lindsey Vestal Only, only way to do it. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Is to do it as a note, especially a decade ago, is I need to carve out my own path for this and work for myself and build it from the ground up. And then for me, it was like through the corporate career, you start to realize there's I was put in charge of more and more projects and teams and everything. It's like, Wow, I'm doing all of the business building myself, but I'm doing it for someone else, so why wouldn't I just not do it for myself? Because all of the problems that I faced on Wall Street, they basically hand you crazy monkey on your desk and they're like, Go figure out how to do this, you know? And that's a lot like entrepreneurship is just. Seeing the problems that need to be solved and taking the initiative and going out and doing it. 

Lindsey Vestal Amazing. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share with the audience about any of the topics we've been discussing? 

Dr. Doug Vestal I mean, I think just start the money conversations very early. Kids are super interested in how money works and you can make it age appropriate. But starting them on learning that they should save a part of their money, give away a part of their money, spend part of their money, and having those conversations set up those individual retirement accounts for your kids, set up those brokerage accounts because we mentioned the eighth wonder of the world compound interest. If you have, you know, kids who are ten or under ten or even in their teenage years, the more money they can save right now and get into that habit and realize that the number one rule of becoming financially successful over time is that you have to pay yourself first. If you get $100, you need to set aside $20 for the future year. So you really only have $80. And just that one simple lesson right there can dramatically change their relationship with money and what's going to be possible for them as they get older. 

Lindsey Vestal Speaking of which, you got really excited. Was it a couple of days ago you ordered a game for the family about finance and money? What was that? What was it? 

Dr. Doug Vestal It's called cash flow. And it's a great it's a great game for for kids because unlike Monopoly and some of those other things, this you there's actually strategy involved. You have to work for it. It's not based purely on luck. Yeah. Which I think is really important because if you're teaching kids that money is lucky, then how do you ever compete with that? It's impossible to replicate. You know, whereas this focuses much more on real estate and investing and understanding your monthly cash flow, understanding your expenses, so it's much more applicable to the real world. 

Lindsey Vestal Awesome. I can't wait. I hope it comes this weekend. Me too. I know we can check it out with the family. Thank you so much. Doug, where can people find you if they want to learn more? 

Dr. Doug Vestal So my website Freedom of practice.com where I help occupational therapists start thriving private pay practices. I'll also be posting how to purchase my book there. You can follow me on IG under Vestal Doug. And those are the two best places. 

Lindsey Vestal Awesome. Doug, thank you so much for being my guest today and sharing so much of our experience with my audience. Absolutely. 

Dr. Doug Vestal Thank you. 

Lindsey Vestal Thanks for listening to another episode of OTs In Pelvic health. If you haven't already, hop on to Facebook and join my group OTs for Pelvic health, where we have thousands of OTs at all stages of their Pelvic health career journey. This is such an incredibly supportive community where I go live each and every week. If you love this episode, please take a screenshot of this episode on your phone and posted to IG Facebook or wherever you post your stuff and be sure to tag me and let me know why you like this episode. This will help me to create in the future what you want to hear more of. Thanks again for listening to the OTs and Pelvic health podcast.