
OTs In Pelvic Health
Welcome to the OTs In Pelvic Health Podcast! This show is for occupational therapists who want to become, thrive and excel as pelvic health OTs. Learn from Lindsey Vestal, a Pelvic Health OT for over 10 years and founder the first NYC pelvic health OT practice - The Functional Pelvis. Inside each episode, Lindsey shares what it takes to succeed as a pelvic health OT. From lessons learned, to overcoming imposter syndrome, to continuing education, to treatment ideas, to different populations, to getting your first job, to opening your own practice, Lindsey brings you into the exciting world of OTs in Pelvic Health and the secrets to becoming one.
OTs In Pelvic Health
Can You Treat Vaginismus Virtually?
- OT Pioneers: Intro to Pelvic Floor Therapy opens Sept 16-20, 2024
- Introducing the Functional Pelvic Practitioner Levels and Certification - for OTPs Craving a Structured and Recognized Path to Specialize in Pelvic Health
- Trauma Informed Pelvic Health Certification with Lara and Lindsey
More about my guest:
Jess Seitz is a trauma-informed pelvic floor occupational therapist and founder of Pain-Free Intimacy, where she works as a vaginismus recovery coach to help women from around the world break free of the pain and frustration of vaginismus to enjoy intimacy the way it was intended. She has a background in nervous system regulation and chronic pain management and uses this to offer a unique approach to vaginismus recovery. Jess was inspired to help others after having healed from a long journey of vaginismus herself- a journey full of set-backs, poor advice, loneliness, and inconsistent progress. Wanting to help other women see the progress they’re desiring, with genuine support and care, she developed a comprehensive vaginismus program that has helped dozens of women turn pain into pleasure.
Where to find her:
- Facebook page with free resources
- Jess' Website
- @painfree.intimacy
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Pelvic OTPs United - Lindsey's off-line interactive community for $39 a month!
Inside Pelvic OTPs United you'll find:
- Weekly group mentoring calls with Lindsey. She's doing this exclusively inside this community. These aren't your boring old Zoom calls where she is a talking head. We interact, we coach, we learn from each other.
- Highly curated forums. The worst is when you post a question on FB just to have it drowned out with 10 other questions that follow it. So, she's got dedicated forums on different populations, different diagnosis, different topics (including business). Hop it, post your specific question, and get the expert advice you need.
More info here. Lindsey would love support you in this quiet corner off social media!
Lindsey Vestal Jess, I am really excited to be talking with you today. I have to say that the timing is pretty amazing. Today was the day that you officially receive news that you are graduated with a complete certification for the trauma informed Pelvic health Certification. Bravo to you for this incredible endeavor. You were. You were absolutely incredible to work with. Laura and I were just blown away with your case studies and just your contribution over the last few months in this inaugural cohort. So I just can't thank you enough.
Jess Seitz Thank you. I'm so excited. And it was such an amazing, amazing experience to be able to not just like learn all the amazing content, but even to be able to meet other teachers in the space was really sweet and special. So thank you for creating such an amazing resource.
Lindsey Vestal Incredible. Well, I look forward to continuing learning alongside of you. I think that's one of the best things about this specialty is just the fact that we can deepen our understanding and then just keep sitting in that and growing with it. And you're an awesome example of that. So thank you for all of that. And I was just I was just so inspired by all of the insights that you not only shared during our in-person retreat, but just through your workbook, reflections throughout the certification, as well as your case study. So I was just really dying to bring you on the podcast to kind of like share the breadth and with of your expertise and this incredible niche that you created for yourself. So I'd love to just kind of start off by asking, tell us who you work with the most often kind of like diagnoses demographic. Just kind of give us a general orientation to to the work that you do.
Jess Seitz Yeah. So I work pretty much exclusively with Vaginismus. And personally I went through Vaginismus myself and learned a lot of what worked and what didn't work and just felt a burden for being able to really come beside women well in this space. And so that's, that's my specialty and kind of the really targeted niche that I get to work with. And then within that, I do tend to kind of draw in Christians within that space because I have a faith background and I think a lot of us have just faced a lot of not so great teachings over the years with purity, culture and our own kind of limitations and our understanding, our body. And so to really be able to come beside women in that space has just been such a passion of mine. And I'm so grateful that I get to now kind of from my own personal experience and now my background is in OT, be able to partner well with these women and help them flourish in their intimate lives.
Lindsey Vestal And I'm absolutely blown away by that. I think that is such important work. And when you first shared those with me, you know, my first intuition was like, you know, I think a lot of OTsand I was the same way. Just it was like I felt like I needed to see all of the clients. I needed to serve all of the people in order to have a viable business to make a go of it. And I'm wondering, just from like a personal standpoint, did you ever have those thoughts or were you pretty clear, especially after your own personal experience, that this is what you really wanted a niche down to?
Jess Seitz That's a hard question. Yes and no to both. I knew in my heart that I wanted to reach down to specifically working with women of faith, and it all kind of started when I had a conversation with a friend from church over coffee, and she asked her, How can I pray for you? And she opened up and said that she's been married for three years and she's still not been able to have penetrative sex. And I about lost it because I have a similar story. I had Vaginismus for eight years before we were able to kind of move on to enjoy sex. And so when she shared that with me, I just my heart went out to her and I got to share some of my experience. And she just opened up and the things that she had been told that she needed to do in order to get past this were similar to what I heard. Things like, You need to watch pornography together. You need maybe you're just not interested in or into your husband or attracted to him. And you know, you just need to drink wine. We all get told these things, but, you know, it really just spoke to my heart in that I felt like I had to compromise my own morals to be able to heal from sexual pain. And she felt similarly. And so when she shared that story, my husband is actually the one who was like, Jess, I think, I think we need to be able to help women better feel supported in this space. And so initially it's like, Well, I can't, I want to help everyone. And I do. I still work with anyone. And I it's brings me joy to work with anyone and everyone, but specifically being able to speak into these women who just have don't feel very supported in this space and their faith is often neglected to be able to come beside them and just like whisper, you are worthy and you don't have to compromise who you are to heal from this. And so, yes, in the beginning, a little nervous about kneeling down. But since then it's been so beautiful and I love it. And I do work with everyone. But yeah, yeah, I love it.
Lindsey Vestal I, I think that's such a beautiful I think a lot of us come to Pelvic health through our own experiences, but I feel like this is incredibly special in a sense. Like you were just recounting that story that I haven't heard before with your friend who had a similar experience. And then I love even more that you shared it with your husband, and you both kind of had this epiphany. And I met him at the retreat. He's like one of the most supportive people I have ever met. And so I could just imagine that conversation. By the way, quick side note, he actually runs workshops with you, is that right?
Jess Seitz He does. He leads a kind of a partner support group once a month to help partners, help their wives kind of navigate through this. And he also has a partners mini course within my program. That is for the guys to be able to understand more about Vaginismus, how we can support them and their fears and questions, and then how they can support their partner better in this journey. So he's he's amazing. So he's so incredible.
Lindsey Vestal My gosh. Is there anything better? I'm just like, smiling ear to ear. I love that. Do you see clients virtually or just in person?
Jess Seitz Virtually, actually. Just virtually. Beauty of OT and the the. Yeah. The perspective I take the vaginismus is I really feel I really want to empower the client to be her own therapist in a sense. Yeah. I from my own perspective and from the kinds of worked with have found that there is such a barrier to in-person because for most of us the gynecologist has been unfortunately a pretty traumatic. And so it's really hard to try and convince someone that a public fourth therapist in person is going to be any different. I know we are, and most of us are very aware and very approachable and understanding in that sense. But for the woman who's facing vaginismus, it's scary. And so I wanted to be able to create a safe space for her to feel comfortable in her own home, her own bed, to be her own expert on her body. So I do really just virtual.
Lindsey Vestal Amazing. Amazing. And how do you find you get most of your clients.
Jess Seitz Social media
Lindsey Vestal Wow.
Jess Seitz Social media. Yeah.
Lindsey Vestal Yeah. It's such a powerful it's such a powerful, I think, medium for for people to find you. And then if it's anything like the work that I've done in the 80s that I support, like we then your clients talk and those are the best word of mouth referrals you can get.
Jess Seitz Yes, I do have a lot of word of mouth, A lot of churches find out that, yeah, there's a resource to help women.
Lindsey Vestal Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I'd love to, to kind of turn the page a little bit more to like the type of the type of work you do. And, you know, I think when most of us think about vaginismus, we're thinking about dilation, we're thinking about manual work. And here you are, you know, a purely virtual practice focusing on pretty much, you know, just that diagnosis. I'm curious what you do. And I'm also curious about how you would respond to the question, why can't we just address vaginismus with dilators and manual work?
Jess Seitz Yeah. So vaginismus is I can say this now because I've healed from it and passed it, but I love it. It's fun. A fun diagnosis. And if you have it, you hate it. I get it. But it's so, so intricate and it's there's so many avenues to it. And so die leaders are just like the public facing view of vaginismus. It's the the thing we all know to go to. But it is one honestly small aspect of pageants is recovery. Because women who have vaginismus where we're complex, there's many, many layers there. And if anyone's ever treated it, you kind of know that there's there's this hope that the dilator is going to work, but oftentimes it's not that easy. And so when you do just treat vaginismus from a dilator perspective, you're really like kind of minimizing what this experience is to something physical. And I find vaginismus is at the smallest scale, honestly physical. But it is mostly a bio psychosocial concern. It is a nervous system, regulation, mindset, concern. And then we need to pair a positive stimulus with hopefully with the dilator. So be that with these. And so I, I used highlighters had found a great way around needing are not needing them. We do need them but so much happens before we even get to the dilator like we we need to address. I have a kind of concentric circles we work through, but first and foremost, we have to address the nervous system. We if you're going to stick a dilator in in a dysregulated state, I 100% guarantee you that is not going to be a positive experience and might even in re invite in some re traumatization, which is what we're really trying to avoid. So you have to get that nervous system regulated and she has to know what her body needs to get there. Is she at a hyper regulated state, a hypo regulated state? How do we get to that? That I call it zone of regulation, which is we talk about the window of tolerance. And so we how do we get to that window of time is under regulation. And I give my clients so many different strategies to help understand their bodies to be able to get there better. And only once we get to that zone of regulation can we then step into the mindset, the cognitive piece, where we can start understanding the fears and the frameworks and the expectations or perceptions that we have, the the rigidity that we have and be able to work through that. And so I quit my clients to be able to handle. I have scripts for them to be able to understand and speak through. And then only then can we start talking about the pellet floor. And so then the dilator might come in handy as a way to try. And once we've done the foundation steps, we integrate a dilator into this. But we also do that for the stretches and the releases and the pelvic floor drops and the breathing. But that all comes after the nervous system in the mindset stuff.
Lindsey Vestal Oh yes, it's such a relief. And it's it's so incredibly empowering, I think, as a practitioner to be able to hear someone talk about it like this. And obviously you've been through the trauma informed Pelvic health certification just but this it that's new and you've been practicing for a while. So I'm curious how you came to this, you know, because most of the coursework we go to, as you said, most of the common vernacular that we're hearing around how to support women with Vaginismus is around this manual work. And so I'm curious how you kind of came to this in your journey.
Jess Seitz A lot of it came, you know, from my own personal journey with vaginismus .. And I had been through pelvic floor therapy over four years. I had done I actually had gotten through all of the dilator is to the largest size twice. And I couldn't transition to my husband, which is so defeating, defeating, especially when you're a therapist yourself and you're like, What the heck? I did all my ATPs, I did all my exercises. Why can't I make this actual function instead of just dilator? And so just and then, you know, I'd go to counseling and it was a lot of talk about anxiety and stuff, but nothing that really transitioned into the functionality of it. So to be honest, I had to take a step back and really use my brain. I got to that point, just because our marriage is really hurting my husband, as you, as you know, is the most incredibly supportive person. I had become so internally angry and bitter and I had become mean to him to push him away, to protect him from being married to someone like me. And realizing our marriage is not in a good spot. I had something had to change. I couldn't just go back to college for therapy or counseling again because it didn't work. So I decided I got in. My head was like, okay, yes, you can do this. You are an O.T. We are like a masters of the body. What is wrong here? What is the disconnect? And that's when I really started seeing that I had been siloing my care and then siloing my approach to either just the brain or just the public flaw. And realizing vaginismus was more of a nervous system, involuntary response. It was that word involuntary was the key for me is I'm doing voluntary stuff with my pelvic floor, voluntary and stuff with the brain. But involuntary is still calling the shots. How do I get to the involuntary? And so I had previously worked in chronic pain with patients with complex regional pain syndrome, using kind of chronic pain approaches for helping with sirups and fibromyalgia and these other things, and realized I think vaginismus is more of a diagnosis like sirups these complex, you know, pain symptoms rather than a biomechanical pelvic floor approach or a cognitive dissonance with a psychological approach. Once I made that connection that we need to treat this like we would see Aaps was when I kind of switched gears, switched approaches, started targeting the nervous system, and then the scales just started falling off and it started making sense.
Lindsey Vestal I love the way you talk to yourself about this. I love that you said you're an OT Jess like, right. Is it's just so it's so powerful. I think sometimes as occupational therapists, we're aware a little bit of maybe some of the limitations that we that we have, maybe some of the lack of exposure to biomechanical skills or, you know, lumbar pelvic assessment, you know, styles. And actually actually what you said was just so paramount and powerful. And anyone listening to this episode right now who does have some of that feeling of imposter syndrome or self-doubt, like, please try to talk to yourself the way that we've just heard you are just because it is so powerful to take that step back. I love that you mentioned that you felt like you were siloing care and that you were equipped to stop doing that. And I also really resonated with the fact that you thought about it through this lens and thought, wait a second, it works for that, you know, And you got curious and you tried and you were you were a pioneer in this. You know, you really sat down and thought, I'm going to try this from a different way. And so that being said, would you mind sharing some of the techniques and strategies that you do use that you have found helpful with your clients?
Jess Seitz Well, the nervous system stuff is like the backbone and the foundation for a lot. Getting getting a client aware of her own body, her own nervous system, giving her the language to be able to express that, understand that is huge. We do a lot to help partners understand and to be able to help like her partner, be able to co regulate with her and help her in that. Because sometimes we're so far in our own spiral, we can't we can't come out of that very easily. And it helps when you can have someone else help with that. And then, yeah, so then we do a lot also with curiosity mindset. I, I think, I think that's very rare that I have someone who has a win to share with me that didn't involve the curiosity mindset. The curiosity mindset might be my favorite avenue of helping women progress and see growth in this because a curiosity mindset takes basically switches your brain centers, so you're no longer acting out of like this, this fear base, like limbic center kind of brain and a curiosity mindset allows you to exit that and enter into like the frontal cortex and just like get creative and wonder and experiment. And so it's in that area that we find our body relaxes and it's kind of regulates the best. And so I try and help my clients. Foster In a curiosity mindset. And, you know, I wonder, for instance, like, I wonder what it would feel like if I did this physician with dilating or I wonder what it would feel like if I tried, you know, warming up the dilator first. Or I wonder what would happen if I apply pressure here and so that I wonder if or what would happen if kind of mentality can just it's magical. It it opens doors like nothing else. And I a lot of times the way my clients transition from dilator to like penetrative sex is. I thought. What? I wonder what would happen if we just try it right now and then? It's amazing. Incredible. And so it's always it really like 99% of the time, I the curiosity mindset is what wins. You have to get out of that limbic primitive fear base response center of our brain to really allow our body to do what it wants to do.
Lindsey Vestal Oh yeah I, I love cultivating that and I think the thing that's really magical to use, to use your word there is that it can spill over into all of the other areas of our life and now I can't think of a single area in our life where curiosity doesn't actually support us and provide that stepping stone for whatever action we need to take next. So I love that you're using this really emotionally charged topic as a launching pad for healing. And then I have no doubt that your clients are able to segway that into so many other areas of their life. And what a beautiful what of a beautiful headspace to be and what a beautiful way to approach life.
Jess Seitz It's so cool when we can learn. Like vaginismus for me changed my life, changed our marriage. I understood how to support my body better, to support even like now, conversations that might be more heated. I understand how to exit out of, you know, this visceral response kind of thing into that curiosity mindset and be able to allow my body to thrive in a more complicated situations. And many of my clients would say, like the stuff in this program. Yes. I mean, our goal is for most of my clients to achieve pain free, pleasurable, penetrative sex. But most of them would say this this work has transformed their lives in ways that they didn't even know they needed to, whether it's even just their irritable bowel syndrome symptoms have come down. But even their ability to relate within their family is is a lot better. So, you know, I always say like, you know, the goal is pain free, penetrative sex. But when we show up our body, our body does a better job at showing up for us and across the board and various functions. And that's that's how we thrive as humans.
Lindsey Vestal I couldn't agree more. I am so curious. Just how do you share like chronic pain science or pain management information with your clients? I'm always so curious about that because there's so many ways to to approach it. And I always feel. Like like I struggle with the right words sometimes. So I'd love to hear how you share that information.
Jess Seitz Yeah, I use a visual that's helpful for me. I don't know how helpful it is for others, but I envision so with chronic pain, a lot of times the tension and the stress that comes in from our outside world comes into our body and then we need to do something with that. So I envision this tension from the outside world, the stressors that come in which these are negative stressors, but also positive stressors. It's just our everyday environment is full of sensory input and that tension as it enters our body. And so I envision that as like a ball, this like glowing ball and it comes into our head and then we have to do something with that kind of energy, all that tension. Ball And so for if you have not great coping mechanisms are not great ways of supporting your nervous system, that energy ball is going to go somewhere into your body in a way that it's going to bring your to bring your attention to it. And so for some of us with budget dismiss and painful sex, that's pain with sex. And so or it could be chronic back pain, it could be knee pain, it could be shoulder pain, it could be migraines. But specifically for me, it's like pelvic floor dysfunction. And so that energy ball kind of sinks down into the pelvic floor and just sits there. And whenever you have an event that, you know, is a heightened stress event like intimacy, we it manifests in pain. And so what we'd like to do is take that energy ball as it comes into our head and find a very healthy, appropriate way to use that energy in a more effective way that serves us better. And so this is any kind of coping strategy that, you know, exercise, journaling, talking it out, all of the 30 plus nervous system strategies I do with my clients like different ways to help that ball of energy to be able to be used in a better way that doesn't kind of move down towards wherever the pain is going to be. And then if we experience the pain, it's usually your body saying, I'm not safe. There's a lot of stuff going on. I need your attention and I'm going to get your attention and the loudest way I possibly can. And that's going to be pain. And so the pain is for us as a signal, we got to do something with our body. Our body needs our help right now. And so then my clients would know, okay, when I feel this symptom, I need to do X, Y and Z because that's what works for me individually. So it's how I've kind of envisioned is this pain ball or like this energy pain ball kind of coming in and then realizing we've got to do something. We got to dump it somewhere, but hopefully not in our pelvis.
Lindsey Vestal Yeah, I think that's such a relatable way. I really I love that language you've come up with. I it's also just very visual, you know, There's just so much room for creativity there for, for the client to make it their, their own. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Jess Seitz Yeah.
Lindsey Vestal I'd love to kind of wrap up our conversation with if, if possible, just maybe kind of sharing like a case study to illustrate how a lit with a little bit more clarity how you work with your clients.
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Jess Seitz Okay. I think my favorite case study is the one I submitted for the trauma informed certification.
Lindsey Vestal Oh Yes. I was hoping you'd share this one.
Jess Seitz I love it because I got to work with this client for a while and she there's so many elements to her story that are really fun to kind of work with. But she has been battling vaginismus for many, many years. And by the time she had come to me, she had been in and out of pelvic floor therapy and just exhausted and tired and beside herself. There's a lot of reasons why. But essentially, when she had come to me, she had gone through the first half of her die liters and didn't really see a lot of success, gave up. And then when she started back with me, she's back at square one, essentially. And so we were able to do or she'd go through this program that I have and she would learn and we talk and we grow. And she she'd make her way up and she gotten to the second two largest dilator. Unfortunately, she had read on Reddit that the second largest dilator was like the most difficult, the most impossible, that no one could get passes. And she just had that in her head. She also I love her brain because it's very different than mine. She had measured out every like the diameters of each dilator in her set, and she knew the percentage increase between each dilator. And she also knew how long it took her on each dilator to get to the next one is So the jump between the second to last one and her last one, her gold dilator, was the greatest percentage increase she would need the most percentage of time. I mean, the numbers, it was impressive, very impressive. And so that was a huge mental block for her. And she was just stuck like she could get her. We call or comfort in our growth time later. She could get her comfort dilator in, no problem. But it was a last growth dilator that she couldn't even get the tip of it in. Didn't make any sense at all, which vaginismus rarely does, which I love. But she was just so in her head about this, this jump in size. And so we talked about we broke down her her dilator section. We broke down in the start of it. And then we kind of worked our way out from there to figure out like, okay, in the middle of dilating, you are so disregulated. Why are we so disregulated right now? We have a lot of beliefs and thoughts and fears in our head that are leading us. Our nervous system is hyper regulated. We are having a hard time coming down. So let's talk about what happens before the session. So we took we would just keep backing up earlier and earlier, earlier in the day from her dilator session to figure out at what point did we exit out of the zone of regulation into a hyper regulated state, and at what point was there like no return or we weren't going to be able to get our body to operate come dilator time? And so we actually ended up going all the way into the morning before work. And so she realized that by the time she got to the parking lot of her job and she closed her door to walk and she immediately had jumped into a hyper regulated state, and she started feeling her heart in which she labeled what that symptom was like, like looks like for her with a heart rate fluttering. She felt this this pang of this twinge of pain in her stomach. And so we talked about what was it about work and the way her shift was set up at work. She worked a little bit in her manager came in a few hours after she had worked and usually really critiqued her in a negative or she perceived a negative way and she would be on edge for the rest of the day trying to please her boss. And then she would leave work, head home and then just didn't ever come down from that. And so we talked about like, okay, well, it's going to be really hard for you to focus in on your vaginismus work. If we're already hyper regulated, like your body doesn't want that, it doesn't need that, and it's not going to help, especially if you have a bunch of fears and lives already in place. So we talked about what we could do to help her start regulating her day earlier on, and we had a bunch of strategies and different activities that she could do, mindfulness stuff she could do at work. And so she comes back to me like three days later and she's like, okay, yes, I did it. Like, what do you do? She's like, I asked to get my shift changed at work and now I don't come into work until after my boss is there. And I told her I didn't want to do the task in the morning because I felt like I wasn't equipped well enough for it. And so now I have a much better work experience and much better relationship with my boss, and I've been able to get that dilator in 50% of the way and we've been working on that damn dilator for like probably four months now with Mindset set. And she's like, I got it in 50% of the way. It's like, my goodness. Just from shifting and understanding your body better, what your needs were advocating for yourself, recognizing the tiny people pleasing tendency there, we were able to kind of make a lot of progress. So super cool. We did a whole bunch of like strategic nervous system stuff too, that really helped her out. Mindfulness stuff that it was. It's so cool when you can see someone understand their body better and meet that need. You start flourishing in so many ways.
Lindsey Vestal I. There is so much to that case that you that you shared with us. And I think it what I love specifically is that it exemplifies the spillover effect that the occupational therapy approach has to everyday life. Because, you know, in your case study, which of course you you went into to so much more depth on, you know, you had explained how she really felt that tension as she was approaching work. And so I'm not sure that if it wasn't through your holistic lens and and framework and guidance, she would have been able to really piece the symptoms to that sense of advocacy and agency for her needs. And again, this is that beautiful, you know, sense of empowerment that we can impart on our clients and that ripple over effects because we are not humans that are operate in these individual robotic silos. Everything we do affects all aspects, all roles, all of our routines. And so you were really able to empower her to, obviously in that very beautiful strategic mind, she had to get, you know, 50% of that dilator and that she had been angst ING over. But also she was able to start to speak up for her needs, rearrange her schedule and just have that harmony spill over into so many aspects of her life.
Jess Seitz I love how you summarize that so well. Yes, it was so fun. So beautiful. Yeah. So encouraging to see that that happened. When we get that kind of understanding of our bodies.
Lindsey Vestal Where can people find you? I would love I love I love what you're doing on social media. I'm such a big fan of your work. Just where can people find you?
Jess Seitz Yeah, I'm on I'm on the Instagram a lot and it's at painfree.intimacy on Instagram. I try to put a lot of educational content out there for both clients and providers. I also have a website Pain free intimacy.com. We do have a free public Facebook group that I try to have training videos and stuff in to help clients out. So I'm there, I'm on TikTok to you, but I'm so bad at TikTok. So, please don't judge my TikTok.
Lindsey Vestal What is the name of the Facebook group in case people want to be able to share it with their clients?
Jess Seitz It's a long name. It's Vaginismus Recovery: Tips and tips, tricks and resources for pain free intimacy.
Lindsey Vestal Absolutely perfect. I cannot thank you enough for leading the charge on this and just encouraging us to really step into who we are as coaches, see it through that lens and then watch our clients thrive. Jess, thank you for all the work that you do.
Jess Seitz Well, thank you, Lindsey, and thank you for making space for really awesome conversations to happen that we can continue to grow.
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