The Thalamus and Spiritual Health: The First Stage of Brain Development

What does the Thalamus have to do with spiritual and emotional health. Is there something about how the brain develops that gives us insight into the way we go about maturing and growing? And what happens is we miss those things? Join Joshua and Ken Hoffert as they talk about the layers of the brain, spiritual and emotional health, and that weird layer of the brain characterized by the Thalamus.

For more about Josh and Ken, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

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00;00;02;02 - 00;00;20;03
Joshua Hoffert
I.

00;00;20;06 - 00;00;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. And when we look at the brain, we're going. We'll actually know there's a way of walking that God hardwired right into your neurochemistry that will actually help to transform you. That if you know about this, why not just explore it in first place? Got it. you know, we have, you know, it's things like, I'm just thinking off the cuff.

00;00;38;15 - 00;00;40;26
Ken Hoffert
But then we're coming back to that issue of trust.

00;00;40;29 - 00;00;41;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we're coming back to the.

00;00;41;23 - 00;00;45;09
Ken Hoffert
Issue of trust. That's right. It's one of those things the thalamus is trying to develop.

00;00;45;12 - 00;00;54;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Exactly.

00;00;54;11 - 00;01;00;20
Joshua Hoffert
Right.

00;01;00;22 - 00;01;25;26
Joshua Hoffert
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of the Winter ministries podcast. I'm your co-host, Joshua Orford, and I'm joined by the man on the other side of, the the southern side of North America from the northern side of North America. I'm on. And he is my policy.

00;01;25;28 - 00;01;26;17
Ken Hoffert
Yes. Hello.

00;01;26;17 - 00;01;37;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, he is also on. He is here. He is a co-host. Ken offered to be specific. So welcome to the Board the Broadcast podcast.

00;01;37;24 - 00;01;39;17
Ken Hoffert
What is it? Is it a podcast.

00;01;39;23 - 00;01;48;16
Joshua Hoffert
Or a brand? I guess when you're you're broadcasting the podcast. So maybe you could call it a broadcast.

00;01;48;18 - 00;01;49;12
Ken Hoffert
Let's not.

00;01;49;14 - 00;02;32;07
Joshua Hoffert
No. Let's not. Let's not I did I invented a new, term today. For me, anyway. Maybe someone else has invented it. I saw a picture of a revival slash church slash meeting thing, and the people had unrolled what looked to be about a 50ft long American flag. And that was part of the meeting, and I saved a picture of it as a as an American, but also as a, American, as a, as a, an American living abroad.

00;02;32;09 - 00;02;53;03
Joshua Hoffert
You know, Canada is about as close you can get when it comes to living abroad, but it's still abroad. Yeah. And looking in at a church service where they've unfurled a 50ft American flag and everybody's holding a piece of it, and they've stretched it across the whole meeting room. Okay, if you can picture that.

00;02;53;05 - 00;02;54;24
Ken Hoffert
I'm just not going to comment. Yeah.

00;02;54;28 - 00;03;07;18
Joshua Hoffert
And I texted it. I took I texted the photo of it to my wife and I said, this is, peak American vanity and, American vanity. So.

00;03;07;20 - 00;03;09;07
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, I don't think that's going to catch on.

00;03;09;08 - 00;03;13;10
Joshua Hoffert
No, it could it could it be Chris chicken.

00;03;13;12 - 00;03;17;01
Ken Hoffert
So it's a.

00;03;17;03 - 00;03;29;24
Joshua Hoffert
Well, it's this, it's this kind of weird form of Christianity that's in, in, in wrapped itself and become totally conflated with, the Americas.

00;03;29;24 - 00;03;32;04
Ken Hoffert
Become Christian nationalism. Yeah.

00;03;32;04 - 00;03;54;27
Joshua Hoffert
The the technical term is Christian nationalism. Yes. And which, which, you know, we're I'm nationalism is not a bad thing. And Christian nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing either, in the sense of we care about our nation, we care about. Right? the godly values being present in the, the laws of the land, right.

00;03;54;29 - 00;04;03;02
Joshua Hoffert
But it it obviously takes on a whole different meeting. Yeah. And a whole different impetus in American Christianity.

00;04;03;05 - 00;04;11;22
Ken Hoffert
Well, yeah, because you have people that that try to say it with a sneer. Yeah. Recognizing that there's some, that there's value to it.

00;04;11;22 - 00;04;42;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. There. Yeah there is. But but those kind of displays just make me shake my head as an American living abroad, going, come on, guys, when you're having a church service, do you really need to unfurl a 50ft long flag and proclaim how amazing America is? Yeah. It's it's and and you know it. To be fair, you get the whole, the whole the, the subculture of Christian nationalism of God first chose Israel, and then he chose America.

00;04;42;24 - 00;05;08;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And that's the that's where I'm going. No, that's that is not the case. And I think you forgot that there's 2000 years of chosen countries in the midst of that, that did horrible atrocities in the name of Christianity. So, true. So anyway, I, I, I'm just saying I did create a term, but you're right. It might not American vanity.

00;05;08;12 - 00;05;10;08
Joshua Hoffert
No, it's probably not catchy enough.

00;05;10;15 - 00;05;11;04
Ken Hoffert


00;05;11;07 - 00;05;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Chris, chicken.

00;05;12;17 - 00;05;14;28
Ken Hoffert
That's a point. I wouldn't try to market that one.

00;05;14;28 - 00;05;38;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, I have heard some friends. They put out a, documentary a number of years ago. They called it the end of Church Unity, and that was it. You know, that's a bit of a catchy one. Church unity. Yeah. Christianity. That's just kind of codified by your typical evangelical worship service. yeah.

00;05;38;19 - 00;05;40;23
Ken Hoffert
You define your Christianity by your church, right?

00;05;40;23 - 00;05;56;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, totally. That's what they meant. Yeah. So anyway, but that's not at all. Again, we're not a political podcast, although we've started off the last couple episodes, maybe making some maybe we'll get their political stuff, maybe we'll have a whole version of the win.

00;05;56;17 - 00;05;57;09
Ken Hoffert
Oh, that's not.

00;05;57;10 - 00;06;09;09
Joshua Hoffert
That's not on. Yeah. Yeah. That's not, that's right. We'll turn our podcast into reaction videos to politicians. So there's a lot of fodder out there. I'm telling you though. So

00;06;09;11 - 00;06;15;21
Ken Hoffert
Well, you know, and we were talking about, because we're going to talk about, about, trauma and pain and.

00;06;15;24 - 00;06;19;27
Joshua Hoffert
Really plays in actually, it really helps you understand the, the way I.

00;06;20;00 - 00;06;42;27
Ken Hoffert
I was thinking that there was this, this thing that happened in, in the US Congress last week where, right, members were yelling at each other and all this kind of stuff. And I'm thinking, well, well, okay, so so we got some breakdown here. Yes. Are people not getting along? And there's issues that are separating them and they can't find ways to connect.

00;06;42;27 - 00;06;46;16
Ken Hoffert
So Yeah. Mean that's part of it.

00;06;46;23 - 00;07;19;17
Joshua Hoffert
That's true. Well I think it is it's it's definitely part of it. And I think as we go through this, these episodes talking about the stages of formation, and we're not seeing the stages of formation as they apply to Christian maturity. We're talking about the stages of formation as they apply to being a human right and the ultimate vocation of the human is to bear the image of God, which is to be human.

00;07;19;19 - 00;07;35;03
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And so we're not necessarily separating Christian ideals from the way a mature the way a person would mature. And because I don't think you can I don't think Jesus does. I don't think the Bible does. You're just like.

00;07;35;03 - 00;07;36;24
Ken Hoffert
Being you're making them part and parcel.

00;07;36;24 - 00;07;40;03
Joshua Hoffert
Of the we're making it part and parcel of it. Yeah. That's right. Exactly.

00;07;40;05 - 00;07;42;10
Ken Hoffert
And that was a lot of peas in there just so.

00;07;42;10 - 00;08;08;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Well and I like we said there's a distinction between the kind of emotional maturity we expect from someone who is richly attached to the father in a, in a deep and profound way, and the kind of emotional maturity we expect from someone who has the right tools and has been given a stable environment to practice them in.

00;08;09;00 - 00;08;42;07
Joshua Hoffert
Right. There's there's a different there's a different kind of maturity we expect, but there's definitely crossover between the two. Yeah. Yeah. And one of our, one of our good friends, Ron Huxley, said at one point in a course that we did, seminar, an online seminar we did a couple years ago, he said, there's, there's a big difference between being able to understand how a breathing exercise impacts your level of anxiety, and how knowing the father's perspective impacts your anxiety.

00;08;42;10 - 00;09;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
And, both of them can reduce anxiety. But there's a much different means process, an end to both of those things. And so as we talked about earlier in these episodes on the wind podcast, we've talked through the, the issue of, of,

00;09;11;24 - 00;09;14;19
Ken Hoffert
Kind of thought. Yes.

00;09;14;21 - 00;09;20;09
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Well, my, my computer wasn't charging, so.

00;09;20;11 - 00;09;36;11
Joshua Hoffert
That'll be on a cut out. That part. what was I saying? So gaining the father's perspective on. Yeah.

00;09;36;14 - 00;09;38;12
Ken Hoffert
You're not Saint.

00;09;38;15 - 00;09;40;18
Joshua Hoffert
What is instinct?

00;09;40;20 - 00;09;42;22
Ken Hoffert
Your voice and your mouth.

00;09;42;23 - 00;09;52;13
Joshua Hoffert
That's fine. Doesn't matter for the recording because it's recording it locally, so don't worry about it, okay? Okay. It just it's probably your internet, so.

00;09;52;16 - 00;10;00;26
Ken Hoffert
Could be okay. Are you good? Yeah. Well. Or else you're just out of sync. I mean, that's a good. Yeah, it could be.

00;10;00;26 - 00;10;03;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. It's it's synced on my end, so.

00;10;03;25 - 00;10;04;21
Ken Hoffert
Okay.

00;10;04;23 - 00;10;34;07
Joshua Hoffert
Okay. So there's a difference between, the, the anxiety that's diminished because, you know, the father's perspective and the anxiety just diminished because you have a breathing exercise. And, and so we're just working through, you know, we talked we talked earlier in an episode about can you stumble into emotional health and spiritual health, right. And the the resounding answer to that as well, it seems like you do.

00;10;34;07 - 00;10;57;08
Joshua Hoffert
It's actually the right set of factors comes into your life. And and oftentimes what we see, the result of those factors as the result of the influence of the Spirit of God in your life, bringing the right kind of people around, connecting you to the right kind of, the right kind of healthy community, awakening you to his affection and fondness for you.

00;10;57;08 - 00;11;22;01
Joshua Hoffert
These kind of things. And and we're going to dive even more into that. The last episode we recorded, we talked about the four levels of the brain. And in these next few episodes, we're going to dive into each one of those, each one of those levels. And so this episode is, the episode of, where we talk about the attachment center of the brain, which is, centrally located in the thalamus.

00;11;22;03 - 00;11;26;07
Joshua Hoffert
And, and so when we when.

00;11;26;09 - 00;11;29;25
Ken Hoffert
The talon's was that interesting? Well, first part of the brain.

00;11;30;00 - 00;11;36;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yes, yes, it would be called, would I be right in saying this, that it would be called subcortical.

00;11;36;27 - 00;11;39;20
Ken Hoffert
That's what. Yeah, that's what I heard it called. Yes.

00;11;39;21 - 00;11;48;23
Joshua Hoffert
Because you have the, the the court the court cortices or that the plural for that word. Probably. So it'd be before the cortex was.

00;11;48;24 - 00;11;49;20
Ken Hoffert
No. This if we're.

00;11;49;20 - 00;11;50;05
Joshua Hoffert
Talking about.

00;11;50;07 - 00;11;50;29
Ken Hoffert
Brain. Yeah.

00;11;50;29 - 00;12;10;16
Joshua Hoffert
The, it's, it's the part that's formed before the cortex is or formed or comes into maturity. It's the first part of the brain that really starts develop, developing in the brain of an infant. Now obviously when an infant is born, their whole brain is there. Some like you have a brain. Yeah. They do have a brain and they have all the parts of the brain.

00;12;10;16 - 00;12;12;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. But the brain goes.

00;12;12;21 - 00;12;13;21
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;12;13;24 - 00;12;28;14
Joshua Hoffert
So you hope. Yeah. The brain goes through layers of intense formation and, different parts of the brain form at different stages of development. it's just like.

00;12;28;17 - 00;12;31;11
Ken Hoffert
You might want to say they, they, they come online.

00;12;31;11 - 00;12;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
They come online. Yeah. They come online and they're useful.

00;12;34;10 - 00;12;38;04
Ken Hoffert
More functional. Yes. The things that that the brain is doing that the body is doing.

00;12;38;04 - 00;13;00;06
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And it's just like I mean, it's just the it's the same as the human body. Right. That's why we as we separate a, a toddler stage is, you know, a, an infant is, a baby that's a certain age. And why do we separate that into a certain age? Because that's the the growth of the body.

00;13;00;06 - 00;13;24;14
Joshua Hoffert
And then you've got the, the toddler stage, the terrible twos, all kind of stuff. Right? You've got the toddler stage, and then you have the child stage, because the body of the child is developing in different ways at different ages. There's a, a baby's legs are short and stubby, and a nine year old's legs are not short and stubby anymore because the the legs have grown that kind of stuff.

00;13;24;14 - 00;14;00;14
Joshua Hoffert
The brain is doing the same kind of things, and so we can separate the, the, the, the stages of maturity into. And we're going to talk about this more. We can separate the ages of development into different, general periods of time, ages for children. So and we're going to talk more about that in a separate episode. But just so you know, the attachment center of the brain, the thalamus of the brain is really, it's coming online and developing in the first, especially in the first 18 months of the child's life.

00;14;00;16 - 00;14;05;12
Joshua Hoffert
So was it stages 0 to 2, we'll say, to make it easier instead of.

00;14;05;14 - 00;14;06;03
Ken Hoffert
You know, months.

00;14;06;04 - 00;14;36;22
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah 18 months. Yeah. So 0 to 24 months. Right. The Attachment Center is really developing and the attachment center is it's the deepest, but the thalamus, the attachment center is the deepest part. It's the deepest part of the brain. It's it's really the the most basic guttural thing about you is what the attachment center brings. And it is characterized in its formation by the fondness and the affection.

00;14;36;24 - 00;15;03;27
Joshua Hoffert
A mother would have for their child. Right. Yeah. And, so thinking of things like the, the closeness like, example exhibit A, I have three children. Yeah. And my wife breastfed the first two children, and, that was a she loved that period of time with the kids and the kind of connection that she had with them because of that.

00;15;03;27 - 00;15;30;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. Deep affection and deep tenderness, between the first two children in her and and so that was a, that was something that she cherished. And she could feel this really deep spiritual connection with the kids. And then when the third child came along, he had an undiagnosed tongue tie, which is when the bottom part of the tongue is, to connected to the lower part of the mouth.

00;15;30;06 - 00;15;48;05
Joshua Hoffert
And so that was undiagnosed on unrecognized. And he had a hard time breastfeeding. Right. And so we went back and forth with the nurses and all and the doctors and all that, and eventually they realized what was happening. So we had to go have that taken care of to go to a specialist, the little tiny snip. But you need to go to a specialist for it.

00;15;48;07 - 00;16;06;05
Joshua Hoffert
And by the time by the time that was taken care of, he was born in May, and I think it was early August when it was finally, when it was finally fixed. So what happened was that he could never when he was, when he was trying to nurse, he could never put enough pressure to actually get milk.

00;16;06;05 - 00;16;25;04
Joshua Hoffert
Right. So eventually what happened? You know, for any woman that's listening, you know, what happens is the your body adjusts supply and demand to the supply and demand. He can't get the milk. Your body stops producing the milk. And she could never get it back. And so he ended up being bottle fed for most of his life, for most of his, growing up years.

00;16;25;04 - 00;16;48;09
Joshua Hoffert
Right? His first two years, he was bottle fed. So all that to say, there was there was a, it's not to say that he didn't receive nurture affection and attachment. It's to say that she recognized the difference between what was happening here and that a fondness and affection and what was happening there. And she really she I don't.

00;16;48;09 - 00;16;50;04
Ken Hoffert
Think the natural flow of it, the.

00;16;50;04 - 00;16;51;17
Joshua Hoffert
Natural flow of it, work.

00;16;51;19 - 00;16;52;23
Ken Hoffert
On making sure.

00;16;52;23 - 00;17;00;28
Joshua Hoffert
That exactly. Now you have to work on a different way of the natural development of, the thalamus or the attachments, what.

00;17;00;28 - 00;17;07;24
Ken Hoffert
We might call a rhythm. Yeah, but that rhythm doesn't happen. Then you have to find another way to produce it.

00;17;07;26 - 00;17;10;02
Joshua Hoffert
And, and, you know, all, all kinds of and there are.

00;17;10;02 - 00;17;11;01
Ken Hoffert
Other ways to produce it.

00;17;11;01 - 00;17;35;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. For sure. All kinds of mothers and fathers struggle with connecting with their kids in those first few years. And, and especially dads, right. Like that. The dad is less responsible for the growth and development we can't well, we don't have like, well, I can't breastfeed a child, right? I mean, maybe eventually they'll probably discover some way of making men even more women.

00;17;35;20 - 00;17;36;22
Joshua Hoffert
You hope not. Right.

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;42;17
Ken Hoffert
So not no, we're not going to get back to the holidays. Yeah, yeah.

00;17;42;19 - 00;18;20;19
Joshua Hoffert
So, so the attachment centers on overdrive. It's developments on overdrive in the, in the, 0 to 2 years phase, the thalamus is on overdrive. And the way the thalamus, ultimately works is the thalamus is the it's the, it's the initial point of contact through with reality, basically. So the thalamus is the part of the brain that, that responds to external stimuli and begins to send what it's seeing, witnessing, experiencing to the rest of the brain.

00;18;20;22 - 00;18;48;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. So if you imagine, as we talked about last time, you have four levels to the Brain Attachment center, Attunement center, fight or flight. And the, the executive center. Right, right. And so once the thalamus sees something, right, the think the child looking into the eyes of the mom who's breastfeeding it, or the the child looking into the ferocious dog that's charging down on it.

00;18;48;27 - 00;19;12;20
Joshua Hoffert
So the the thalamus or the child that's seeing the dad throw it into the air and catch it. Right. So the the experience, the external stimuli comes, is channeled through the thalamus. And now it filters what the, the life model guys would talk about the fourth, the elevator of the brain. Right, right. It comes into the thalamus and it begins to move up through each one of the levels.

00;19;12;23 - 00;19;34;10
Joshua Hoffert
And so what the thalamus is essentially saying is because it's the attachment center, what the thalamus is essentially saying is, is there someone more mature than me, more resourceful than me, who delights in me even though I can't take care of myself? And so that's the kind of thing the thalamus is, the attachment center the brain is crying out for.

00;19;34;13 - 00;19;44;27
Joshua Hoffert
Right? In terms of it's it's just, functional reality. It's going, what's happening to me? And how do I send that up to the other levels to get access.

00;19;45;02 - 00;20;08;18
Ken Hoffert
To and I healthy. And we'll talk about this more as we go along. But yeah, healthy development in that in those first 18 to 24 months is that this part of the brain that's going to affect every other part of the brain? because it's all connected. Is it that we're learning to live in joy, that joy being looking into the eyes of one who wants to be with me at all times?

00;20;08;20 - 00;20;34;00
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. we're developing trust because we we have to learn to trust someone, right? We've developed. We're learning how to receive. Yeah. And and we're beginning to organize, ourselves into a person through our relationships. We're connecting with people, attaching to people. Right. We're learning how to return the joy from all the unpleasant kinds of emotions that we that that we experience as babies.

00;20;34;03 - 00;20;59;10
Ken Hoffert
So these are tasks that that brain is developing. If it's not developing it correctly, there are ramifications and there are things that disconnect us. And so we'll talk a little bit about that. but that those are the things that the brain is that that part of the brain is doing. Yes, actually has a very good function, a very powerful function that affects us through the rest of life.

00;20;59;10 - 00;21;10;08
Ken Hoffert
Which is why when you say you get into the elevator, that, that that's the B, that's the, you know, the ground floor of the elevator. Yeah. It's it's that I can trust.

00;21;10;11 - 00;21;11;00
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;21;11;02 - 00;21;13;07
Ken Hoffert
If I can't trust, I can't even get in the elevator.

00;21;13;10 - 00;21;24;23
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yes. And and that. And if I can't trust right then the, the the attachment center and the rest of the elevator is totally broken down.

00;21;24;25 - 00;21;28;28
Ken Hoffert
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I know which floor we're going to at any point in time, I guess.

00;21;29;00 - 00;21;55;18
Joshua Hoffert
So thalamus is developing in, you know, its initial stages of development are 0 to 2. And it's response, it's responsibility as a portion of the brain in a in a mature individual is to process external stimuli to the rest of the brain. Right. Yeah. And so yeah. And the reason why we call it the attachment center is because it is responsible largely for our attachment level of attachment love.

00;21;55;25 - 00;21;58;12
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so when we talk about we're going to talk about attachment.

00;21;58;12 - 00;22;02;03
Ken Hoffert
Learning how to attach to people. Yes others yes other human.

00;22;02;04 - 00;22;27;28
Joshua Hoffert
And and we're going to go through attachment theory in a, in a later, episode. but suffice it to say, at this point that, you know, brain science, a, the psychological development of a person, the, the, the theory of attachment probably makes the most amount of sense when it comes to, how we will relate to each other later in, later in life.

00;22;27;28 - 00;23;01;15
Joshua Hoffert
So attachment theory basically says you learn, ways of attaching through your parental figures and other people that are more resourceful than you, that interact with you from a young age. And the there are three basic attachment patterns that secure attachment, anxious attachment and then fearful avoidant attachment. And and so when it comes to the attachment center, it's called the attachment center because it directly relates to how we attach to others and the way that it processes information.

00;23;01;18 - 00;23;31;19
Joshua Hoffert
So if the thalamus is responsible for feeding, you can see this very clearly. If the thalamus is responsible for I see something. And now whether it's a dog, a person, a bottle of milk or whatever, right. My computer in front of me, it shows me like like, for instance, if I had an error message show up while we're recording this, my thalamus would immediately take that stimuli, feed it up to my attunement center, which would feed it to my fight or flight, which would feed it to my executive center.

00;23;31;19 - 00;23;37;10
Joshua Hoffert
So it's the initial point of contact. And then I would have to figure out, oh, how do I respond to this? Right. Yeah.

00;23;37;18 - 00;23;40;23
Ken Hoffert
So based on what I already experience.

00;23;40;23 - 00;24;02;12
Joshua Hoffert
Based on what I've already experienced now, because when I was younger, I worked in a computer store, and even younger than that, I was very involved in computers and computer building when I was really young. Now, now, because if I had an error message, my thalamus doesn't go, oh, like some people, right?

00;24;02;14 - 00;24;03;03
Ken Hoffert
Right.

00;24;03;05 - 00;24;03;23
Joshua Hoffert
And,

00;24;03;25 - 00;24;10;16
Ken Hoffert
When we get the blue screen. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So do we even get those anymore? But we used to get the blue screen of Death BSOD.

00;24;10;16 - 00;24;33;14
Joshua Hoffert
The blue screen of death. That's right. So so based on how your brain is developed over time will play a part in how you respond to the external stimuli because your thalamus goes I see an error message. Right. What what do we do with error messages? Let's send this up to the Attunement Center. Have we ever seen this before?

00;24;33;16 - 00;24;52;00
Joshua Hoffert
Right. What what happened when we saw this before? Fight or flight? Is this a thing to be concerned about? Do I need to send a sig. Because then the send the signal goes back down into the hippocampus. Yeah. Which releases cortisol to respond to a stressful situation. Yeah. All right. Have we seen this before? Yes we have. We know what to do.

00;24;52;00 - 00;25;11;22
Joshua Hoffert
Executive function. How did we respond in the past. Right. So we go through the stages. And the the thalamus is the deepest stage as the place that either is sub formed, malformed, unformed, depending on how, especially depending on how your, your.

00;25;11;27 - 00;25;12;27
Ken Hoffert
Well-Formed.

00;25;12;28 - 00;25;40;27
Joshua Hoffert
Or well formed. Yeah. Or. Well form. Yeah. Largely depending on how you're treated as a child and then how what kind of relationship you have around you. Do I have strong, resourceful, emotionally healthy people around me can help develop my thalamus and my attachment center. And so now when a stimuli hits, do I have an initial panic or do I go, actually, I'm loved, I'm cared for.

00;25;40;27 - 00;26;11;25
Joshua Hoffert
There's other people more resourceful than me, and I can actually filter the filter the information in a way that's helpful and in a way that, invites a, a good response rather than an anxious or a fearful response. So if my if my thalamus, if my attachment center is, well formed, then when I see someone I don't, I don't, you know, I see someone who I, I either recognize or don't know.

00;26;11;28 - 00;26;45;16
Joshua Hoffert
I in my initial flash is not one of concern, but of either excitement. curiosity, anything like that. Right. so, so you can see where if a thalamus is unformed or an attachment center is not unformed, but if there's, if there's if there is trauma, pain or wounding that happened in those stages of life or on a relational level, the the pain of rejection, the pain of, abandonment, these kind of things stick deep in the brain.

00;26;45;18 - 00;27;07;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and break down the system of processing stimuli. So now I'm stuck in rejection. I'm stuck in abandonment. And and the thing that we do when we are confronted, then with the pain of abandonment is we tend to externalize it and say, well, it's now that person in front of me, even though they're not related to the pain of the past, are going to abandon me and reject me because I'm used to that.

00;27;07;20 - 00;27;09;11
Joshua Hoffert
It's my very first response.

00;27;09;11 - 00;27;10;02
Ken Hoffert
Anticipation.

00;27;10;02 - 00;27;11;15
Joshua Hoffert
Of that I have in anticipation of it. Right.

00;27;11;16 - 00;27;15;17
Ken Hoffert
And I will see that pattern whether it's there or not.

00;27;15;18 - 00;27;17;08
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. Yes, exactly.

00;27;17;14 - 00;27;25;26
Ken Hoffert
And so and I will respond. And so I create this self-fulfilling, pattern.

00;27;25;29 - 00;27;26;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Exactly.

00;27;26;26 - 00;27;28;09
Ken Hoffert
And abandonment.

00;27;28;11 - 00;27;56;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and this is why see, sometimes I think when it comes to church discipleship, Christianity, all of the above. we wait like, I think we have an idea where we're waiting for the fix to come from. God, like, well, you know, he'll fix that relationship as long as I ask him to. Or. And it just doesn't happen.

00;27;56;02 - 00;28;38;15
Joshua Hoffert
Right. And and the bad things keep happening. And and that's what we talk about when we talked about stumbling into maturity doesn't happen. Do you think you may have stumbled like why did that person mature in that person didn't will they? There's the right set of factors in their life that produced maturity. Right. And so when it comes to Christian development, if we are waiting for God to fix the situation rather than walking in the spirit and and explore offering life giving opportunities to mature and to develop and to attach to other people that are good, healthy and will help me grow, rather than just like I've had so many people just go, well,

00;28;38;15 - 00;28;50;00
Joshua Hoffert
I'm just waiting for God to fix the situation, whether it's their broken marriage, whether it's their failing friendships, whether that's their own level of anxiety or fear, they're just waiting for something magical to happen.

00;28;50;03 - 00;28;51;19
Ken Hoffert
Like magic. Jesus.

00;28;51;21 - 00;29;09;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, exactly. And when we look at the brain, we're going, we'll actually know there's a way of walking that God hardwired right into your neurochemistry that will actually help to transform you. That if you know about this, why not just explore it in the first place? And, you know, we have, you know, things like, I'm just thinking off the.

00;29;09;24 - 00;29;12;13
Ken Hoffert
Cuff, like, then we're coming back to that issue of trust.

00;29;12;15 - 00;29;13;27
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, we're coming back to that issue of trust.

00;29;13;27 - 00;29;16;27
Ken Hoffert
That's right. It's one of those things the thalamus is trying to develop in. And.

00;29;17;01 - 00;29;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Exactly. So, so, Dan, you had said something really interesting and maybe we could jump into that for a little bit. and it is the experience to you, I think you said to understand the attachment center, and it in it's working and it's dysfunctional. elements you just don't you don't look any further than Cain and Abel.

00;29;40;04 - 00;29;44;15
Ken Hoffert
Well, yeah. Oh, yeah. So you start, right? You start with Adam and Eve.

00;29;44;17 - 00;29;45;13
Joshua Hoffert
Right?

00;29;45;15 - 00;30;19;28
Ken Hoffert
Because they they seem to have this, this healthy attachment to the creator. Yeah. They walked and talked and all this sort of thing. This is what's described in in Genesis. And then you have this introduction of, of a third party coming in the questions. It questions. So there's doubt, there's this is that so the questions are about doubt.

00;30;20;00 - 00;30;26;21
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. Is it really is that really the truth. Is that are these the things that we really need to pay attention to and,

00;30;26;24 - 00;30;32;20
Joshua Hoffert
Does he really love you? Is he really out for your best interest? Does he really care about you issues.

00;30;32;20 - 00;30;45;25
Ken Hoffert
Which is surprising because, you know, Adam and Eve having no other real experience as far as we know. I mean, we don't know anything. You know, it's it's a little short story. Could have been 10,000 years, for all we know.

00;30;45;27 - 00;30;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
Could have been one hour.

00;30;47;25 - 00;31;30;17
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. Exactly. Right. We don't know. and so, here you have these two that are connected, attached in this sense to the creator who then separate themselves out of so they become disconnected or dis attached. Unattached. Yep. Yeah. From from the creator or and and choose to accept something else. And in doing so they, they stymie the very developed development, the very growth, the very, human aspects of themselves.

00;31;30;20 - 00;31;33;01
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. Are, are supposed to be developing.

00;31;33;08 - 00;31;34;05
Joshua Hoffert
Now this is where I.

00;31;34;06 - 00;31;35;10
Ken Hoffert
Lose something.

00;31;35;12 - 00;32;05;02
Joshua Hoffert
This is where, by the way, the the, the patristic, patristic theology is, is kind of adds a little bit of insight. Yeah. Where some of these early authors, the early church authors, essentially what they had to say about Adam and Eve is Adam and Eve were really in the infant stage of human development, right? When all this happened, that that's the the Jesus came and showed what it meant to be fully human.

00;32;05;02 - 00;32;08;17
Joshua Hoffert
Adam and Eve show what it means to be a developing human, because.

00;32;08;21 - 00;32;36;13
Ken Hoffert
And part of the reason that they can say that is we you know, we talk about the two trees, right? Yeah. One of them being that the knowledge of good and evil and. Right. And they haven't participated in that knowing good versus evil yet. Right. Something that all of us seem to know far too much about. Yes. And but but not but have a very poor,

00;32;36;15 - 00;32;40;03
Ken Hoffert
Background. Yeah. To really deal with it.

00;32;40;06 - 00;32;40;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;32;40;28 - 00;32;42;27
Ken Hoffert
I mean, back to this whole attachment thing. Right.

00;32;42;27 - 00;32;43;18
Joshua Hoffert
Because well.

00;32;43;24 - 00;32;48;02
Ken Hoffert
So with good and evil very well, because we don't deal with each other very well.

00;32;48;08 - 00;33;03;26
Joshua Hoffert
So Adam and Eve, the way they deal with it is they, they immediately reject right before they can be rejected. They assume God is going to reject them. And so they read rejection and withdrawal into the situation and then reject and withdrawal. They go and hide themselves.

00;33;03;29 - 00;33;04;14
Ken Hoffert
Exactly.

00;33;04;14 - 00;33;06;09
Joshua Hoffert
And and so you see. Right.

00;33;06;11 - 00;33;07;08
Ken Hoffert
We're in trouble.

00;33;07;14 - 00;33;08;20
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. Right from the get.

00;33;08;20 - 00;33;09;20
Ken Hoffert
Go to do right.

00;33;09;20 - 00;33;33;11
Joshua Hoffert
There. Yeah. That's exactly what a little child would do. So right there, right there we see a breakdown in the thalamus. If we could be so bold to say that with Adam and Eve, a breakdown in the thalamus that impacts attachment, love that causes. And we see it in both Adam and Eve, a anxious response, anxious, anxious attachment response, and a fearful avoidant attachment response.

00;33;33;14 - 00;33;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
The secure attachment would response would be to go to God the Father and say we messed up. Yeah, that would be a secure attachment response. We messed up an anxious response, says, I don't know what's going to happen. I need to hide a fearful.

00;33;48;15 - 00;33;48;25
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.

00;33;49;01 - 00;33;50;02
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, go ahead and.

00;33;50;03 - 00;34;18;05
Ken Hoffert
Well and we can we can, take this concept and just look at the interactions of the creator with creation, with all humanity. Yeah. First of all, with humanity in general, and then humanity specifically as a chosen people. Yeah. And and over the course of, of this, what how does how does one party act and how does the other party act?

00;34;18;05 - 00;34;39;25
Ken Hoffert
Right? One party acts and they come to me, come to me. Everything is okay. We can we can work this out. We can find a way to work this out. The other party says, I don't know. I'm not so sure it's going to work out so well. Okay. Yeah, I maybe I need to protect myself. And then we come into that first brother relationship that we get in this in the scriptures, which is Adam and Eve.

00;34;39;26 - 00;34;42;00
Ken Hoffert
I mean, an ape candidate. Yeah.

00;34;42;06 - 00;34;43;01
Joshua Hoffert
That's right.

00;34;43;03 - 00;35;08;18
Ken Hoffert
And, Abel seems to have some level of relationship of that is that's viable. You know, he's he seems to be doing things well, okay. Not so much. Right. And and so much so that this disconnection between the two of them creates violence and then murder.

00;35;08;20 - 00;35;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. That's right.

00;35;09;27 - 00;35;38;25
Ken Hoffert
So that that that inability to have this secure attachment, this good, that this viable relationship. Yeah. Creates an a place of violence. That's right. And there and out of that violence comes murder. Yeah. And then it's part of that murder. You can follow this thing even further. Forms. Cain. God comes to him, that Yahweh comes to him and offers to protect him.

00;35;38;28 - 00;35;43;05
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. I'll be the one who protects you. yeah. In which.

00;35;43;09 - 00;35;46;29
Joshua Hoffert
Which is the kind of language that would be healing, attachment.

00;35;46;29 - 00;35;48;04
Ken Hoffert
Pain. Exactly.

00;35;48;08 - 00;35;53;21
Joshua Hoffert
That kind of language. Right. This is this is thalamus. This is addressing the formation of the thalamus directly.

00;35;53;24 - 00;36;18;22
Ken Hoffert
Exactly. And and what does Cain do? He says he makes this kind of, you know, almost see him like juggling this thing here. Yeah. Yeah. And he says, you know what? I'm going to take care of myself. I'm going to build a wall. Oh, has any of us ever done that? I'm going to build a wall around my little city that I'm making here, and I'll protect myself because I'm not sure you will.

00;36;18;25 - 00;36;28;26
Ken Hoffert
Right. So he creates a city right? Well. And builds a wall right?

00;36;28;28 - 00;36;30;28
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. And then.

00;36;30;29 - 00;36;33;00
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. What do we do? We build a wall around ourselves. Right.

00;36;33;04 - 00;36;48;10
Joshua Hoffert
And you see, you see. Well, here's the thing. Right. And this is we could probably explore this talk topic for, ad nauseum. Really. You see, you know, you see the different you see a secure attachment in Cain, right.

00;36;48;13 - 00;36;49;10
Ken Hoffert
Right. Where.

00;36;49;17 - 00;37;00;08
Joshua Hoffert
And enable sorry. Enable you see a secure attachment. Enable where he can right as far as we know. Right. He's content in trusting that what he offers is good enough.

00;37;00;11 - 00;37;01;21
Ken Hoffert
Correct. Right.

00;37;01;23 - 00;37;17;28
Joshua Hoffert
And there's no question of motive or anything. He just does what's expected of him. Yeah. And just this is what you do when you have a, you know, what's my father expect of me? Okay. Well he's I believe that he has my best interests at heart. I believe that he loves me. I believe that he cares for me.

00;37;17;28 - 00;37;25;07
Joshua Hoffert
So I'm going to give what's required to give Abel. I don't know if he has the best out for me. I don't know if he thinks this. I don't know. Right. So I'm.

00;37;25;09 - 00;37;25;15
Ken Hoffert
Not.

00;37;25;15 - 00;37;53;10
Joshua Hoffert
I'm not sorry. Yeah, I got Cain. Sorry. I keep getting mixed up. Abel. Secure. Cain. Not so. So then he builds walls, right? Based on a a breakdown in the attachment center and breaks because of rejection and abandonment in the in a relational sense. Yeah. And it it here's the thing then also is that these kind of attachment styles are can be handed down from one generation to the next very easily.

00;37;53;10 - 00;38;17;02
Joshua Hoffert
And you see in the line of, Cain sink, it's seven generations down. You have Lamech who says God protected Cain for killing one person. Well, I've killed many people, and and, nobody can get me. Right. So you've got you've got the the style of relational pattern handed down from one generation to the next, which is where.

00;38;17;03 - 00;38;20;27
Ken Hoffert
You then go on to, to build Nineveh.

00;38;21;00 - 00;38;22;15
Joshua Hoffert
Yes. I think it is like magnet.

00;38;22;15 - 00;38;24;19
Ken Hoffert
Does that right. Walled city at the at the time.

00;38;24;19 - 00;38;56;08
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly right. So now you've got it entrenched as a pattern in the family. Yeah. Based on relational abandonment and rejection that breaks down the formation of the thalamus on it from an infant stage. Right. And you've got it go proceeding from one generation to the next, which is actually where I think when the Bible says things like the, the sins of the father will be handed down unto three and four generations, I really think that's what the Bible's getting at, is a pattern that develops, is a pattern that develops.

00;38;56;08 - 00;39;09;25
Joshua Hoffert
That's very difficult to break without supernatural intervention. Yeah. Someone coming in that demonstrates a whole different pattern of being, which is what Jesus does, right? Jesus at the demonstrates to us.

00;39;09;27 - 00;39;15;13
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, what it looks like to walk in a love relationship with the creator.

00;39;15;15 - 00;39;33;19
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And this is John 15, right. This is where Jesus says I'm going to quote John 15 nine and ten. It says, actually, I'm going to quote it in the passion for those people that I think it really captures it well. I'm not always a fan of the passion, but there's certain passages that there are just it just evokes really good imagery, he says.

00;39;33;19 - 00;40;04;03
Joshua Hoffert
I love each of you with the same love that the father loves me. You must continually let my love nourish your hearts. If you keep my commands, you'll you will live in my love, just as I have kept my father's commands. For I continually lived, nourished, and empowered by his love. All right. My purpose for telling you these things is verse 11 is so that the joy that I experience will fill your hearts with overflowing gladness, so that that in in the language of Jesus, Jesus is talking about the deepest place of rejection and abandonment, the deepest place of your being.

00;40;04;05 - 00;40;25;00
Joshua Hoffert
This is attachment language. Come, be attached with me. See a different way of being. I will heal. Your thalamus, in a sense, is what he's saying, and you're going to see things from a totally different perspective, because we'll talk about the the joy center of the brain in a later podcast, in a later episode of the podcast. But you can't have a well developed Joy center with a malnourished thalamus.

00;40;25;02 - 00;40;25;19
Joshua Hoffert
You can't.

00;40;25;19 - 00;40;27;00
Ken Hoffert
That's true. That's very true.

00;40;27;02 - 00;40;28;09
Joshua Hoffert
You have to have.

00;40;28;09 - 00;40;32;28
Ken Hoffert
You have to learn that exactly is of exacting and having joy.

00;40;32;28 - 00;40;39;01
Joshua Hoffert
Trusting, receiving, being nourished, being loved, being celebrated with.

00;40;39;01 - 00;40;44;26
Ken Hoffert
Those so that you can create the parts of you that that that are relational.

00;40;44;26 - 00;40;46;12
Joshua Hoffert
And yeah, that's right.

00;40;46;14 - 00;40;47;13
Ken Hoffert
In their very core.

00;40;47;16 - 00;41;08;08
Joshua Hoffert
When you have a hard time being celebrated and loved, it's probably reflective of a breakdown in your attachment center because of how you were treated as either a young child, young adulthood, or you had a string of broken relationships that created a deep sense of attachment, pain. Yeah. attachment pain is some of the most attachment trauma, especially from a young age.

00;41;08;08 - 00;41;16;10
Joshua Hoffert
At some of the most difficult one, it's difficult for people to articulate attachment trauma because it's pre-verbal. Right. and so how do you.

00;41;16;10 - 00;41;19;04
Ken Hoffert
Try languages develop forth in that exactly, child.

00;41;19;04 - 00;41;23;05
Joshua Hoffert
Right, exactly. So it's pre-verbal before language is developed.

00;41;23;07 - 00;41;25;03
Ken Hoffert
To say anything. I don't know how to describe.

00;41;25;03 - 00;41;47;05
Joshua Hoffert
When I try and describe it, I'm fail for words because I, I actually don't. I experienced this pain before I could articulate what it is right. And then it it crops up in all kinds of ways that I try and relate to people, because as soon as I see them, my thalamus is malnourished. I have attachment pain, I see someone I should attach to, and the immediate response is pain that I can't community.

00;41;47;05 - 00;41;48;22
Ken Hoffert
I'm not going to do that because I'm not.

00;41;48;22 - 00;42;06;18
Joshua Hoffert
Going to do that right. And I and I don't even know. It's some it's like it's you may call it, some people may call it, well, you need deliverance because you feel something has overwhelmed you. And here you have what we would use and heart sink language. Side note if you want healing, we have we offer that as well.

00;42;06;27 - 00;42;28;04
Joshua Hoffert
through the the heart sink modality. Yeah. Hard heart sink would say, well, you can't have a cosmic attachment with that layer of attachment kind of attachment trauma. So there can be spiritual influences there. But what needs to be healed is the attachment pain, which we see experienced in Adam and Eve transferred down through Cain and Abel, you know, specifically Cain.

00;42;28;04 - 00;42;50;03
Joshua Hoffert
And then we see Jesus going, well, actually, let me love you at the deepest place of your being so that you receive my gladness. He's talking a he that directly relates to brain science. Right. And what's interesting, flowing from that is that when you start reading the Christian mystics, right, the contemplative authors, you know what, you can go back as far like you can in Scripture.

00;42;50;03 - 00;43;19;04
Joshua Hoffert
They call Paul a mystic, right? John and John, John the beloved is a mystic. So the the in terms of the the classification of a mystic is not just people that came after the, people in Scripture, people that had a sense of the divinity, permeating their personhood would be probably a, a a a way that we could define Christian mysticism, a sense of the divinity of God permeating their personhood.

00;43;19;04 - 00;43;47;22
Joshua Hoffert
But with that said, I don't think you can find very many of them that would not articulate a profound sense of being loved. As one of the initial drawing points in their relationship with God, the contemplative literature is full. I mean, like lots of the the, the authors titles of their books are On the Love of God, The fire of the Love of God, the Divine Sweetness, the embrace of the Love of God.

00;43;47;22 - 00;44;39;18
Joshua Hoffert
Right. This kind of language is permeates the Christian experience, being saturated with the pleasure of God, being saturated with the love of God. And this somehow creates and then a whole new way of being for these men and women. And so it's interesting when you start thinking about relationship wounding and rejection at the deepest level that forms the brain, and that when God comes and reveals himself in a, in a, you know, a supernatural or basically when I say supernatural, I mean greater than expected within the natural means in that kind of way, the, the change of of disposition in the, in the person is astronomical, right?

00;44;39;18 - 00;44;40;02
Joshua Hoffert
To say the.

00;44;40;02 - 00;45;12;19
Ken Hoffert
Least. Right? But if I, if I were so so I, I think if I could say this correctly. Yeah. If, if I am having a hard time connecting to humans and therefore probably a hard time connecting with the creator, then I'm going to have a difficult time seeing love in any capacity. Yeah, I'm I'm going to distrust love.

00;45;12;21 - 00;45;37;17
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, more than likely, because love has that as a as a basic free flowing component, the ability to connect one to another. Yeah. That's right. If I'm having a hard time doing that and I have some of this, as you said, some pre lang lingual pre-verbal right. Pain that just that gets in the way and it's like a big it's like this this the roadblock here.

00;45;37;19 - 00;45;54;10
Ken Hoffert
Yeah. It says no you need to turn left and or right and you can't go straight on ahead. If I have that then I'm, I'm going to keep missing that ability to connect both to other human beings and then to God. And I won't see God as loving me. Loving.

00;45;54;12 - 00;45;54;21
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah.

00;45;54;22 - 00;45;59;19
Ken Hoffert
That's right. I will see God as somebody I can't. Yeah, something I can't trust or someone I can't trust.

00;45;59;26 - 00;46;22;16
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And and with that said, I think that God does have a unique way of either putting people in our path, that demonstrate a kind of trustful love. Right? That, that begins to heal those broken places. Right? Like where they, they can put up with our junk and our rejection and start to love us like I had.

00;46;22;19 - 00;46;41;18
Joshua Hoffert
I remember one guy saying, love the orphan out of you, right? Like like, you know, deep thalamus wound. We would we would call an orphan spirit would be the kind of language we might use for that as well. Yeah. That a person has a sense of a sense of abandonment. Right. that that lingers with them through adulthood.

00;46;41;18 - 00;47;04;20
Joshua Hoffert
A lot of times that has to do with how you were loved when you were young. but but God has this unique way of either bringing someone along that demonstrates this kind of deep nurture and care and affection, or himself breaking in beyond, your woundedness and revealing himself as a God who loves, cherishes, and cares for you.

00;47;04;22 - 00;47;06;26
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah. And so he he has this unique way of.

00;47;06;26 - 00;47;12;02
Ken Hoffert
Bringing a lie. Yes. The deception that happened very early on.

00;47;12;02 - 00;47;12;28
Joshua Hoffert
That's right. Yeah.

00;47;13;03 - 00;47;19;26
Ken Hoffert
Into something that's true. So would you say that,

00;47;19;28 - 00;47;33;07
Ken Hoffert
Because I think that this is probably core to it, is that that healthy community is a is a foundational place to begin to develop this sort of, yeah. New connection. Yeah. Healthy community. I'm. Yes. Very healthy.

00;47;33;09 - 00;47;51;27
Joshua Hoffert
So let me say this. Yes, absolutely. Let me say this, though, the, the the issue isn't and I just want to I'm not trying to correct something you said. I just want to bring clarity to it. The issue isn't that God is addressing a lie because sometimes we get so binary, right? So we get so binary. And how we hear that, right?

00;47;52;04 - 00;47;52;17
Ken Hoffert
Yeah.

00;47;52;20 - 00;48;15;06
Joshua Hoffert
It's that the lie, the the lie that you believe is the twisted way you've learned to perceive reality. Right? So that's what deception is. I've learned to perceive reality in a way that's not reflective of how it really is. Right. This person in front of me could be a deep, loving person, but when I see them, I see them through the the lens of abandonment rejection.

00;48;15;13 - 00;48;37;08
Joshua Hoffert
So I don't perceive reality as it is because I believe what I believe about the world is false. It's a lie, but the issue isn't addressing. And this is something that has to be said for people because people think I need to address the lie. No, the lie isn't what you need to address. The lie is the result of a wound, which is either we'll talk about different types of trauma too.

00;48;37;08 - 00;49;04;26
Joshua Hoffert
So just bear with us on this whole thing. A wound of neglect, a wound of intent where someone intentionally harmed you. Now I've got a now I have something of pain that I'm carrying. I have to learn how to address that. And so my perception alters because of the pain. And so I'm not. When I'm trying to deal with a lie, I'm always I'm like, I'm cutting the branches off of the tree, but never dealing with the tree itself.

00;49;04;28 - 00;49;05;27
Joshua Hoffert
And so the.

00;49;05;27 - 00;49;09;18
Ken Hoffert
So, not so not a rational lie versus truth.

00;49;09;25 - 00;49;10;15
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly.

00;49;10;15 - 00;49;21;20
Ken Hoffert
Relational. wounding. Yes. That needs to somehow be set, right? Yes. So I can then see the world the way that it's supposed to be.

00;49;21;22 - 00;49;27;01
Joshua Hoffert
Exactly. So I could, I could expose the lie and try and believe the truth all I want.

00;49;27;05 - 00;49;28;22
Ken Hoffert
Yeah, if I know what I mean.

00;49;28;22 - 00;49;38;24
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, if I have, if I have a malnourished thalamus and my attachment center is broken, I'll still have a hard time connecting with people in my community.

00;49;38;26 - 00;49;40;18
Ken Hoffert
So wouldn't don't people get sick.

00;49;40;19 - 00;49;42;24
Joshua Hoffert
And that's what I that's very thing I would need to be healed.

00;49;42;24 - 00;49;48;08
Ken Hoffert
I think people get told sometimes, I told you what was true. Why don't you just believe it?

00;49;48;11 - 00;49;52;18
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah, I can't. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

00;49;52;18 - 00;50;03;15
Ken Hoffert
That's right. And, and and there's so much misunderstanding on this and then more pain because of it that, So anyway, I'm done this.

00;50;03;16 - 00;50;29;12
Joshua Hoffert
Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's. Yeah. Well, with that said that, I think we need to wrap up this episode and, there's lots we could say about, you know, without without going too much further into the infant stage of development and attachment theory. Those are all things we're going to cover more completely. But, you know, suffice it to say, your thalamus when when your attachment center is, underdeveloped, it can lead to all kinds of pain and relationships.

00;50;29;12 - 00;50;53;22
Joshua Hoffert
Later, when it's really well developed, it tends to lean towards trusting, healthy, integrated people in their community. And those things can be hurt in childhood. They can be healed in adulthood. They can be hurt in adulthood and healed in adulthood, too. and so, so when when we're thinking through the formation of a person, we have to take into account, how we love and how we're loved and how we let ourselves be loved.

00;50;53;24 - 00;50;57;28
Joshua Hoffert
And we can see right in the story of Scripture, all those things taking place. Right.

00;50;57;28 - 00;50;59;26
Ken Hoffert
So it's an amazing story, actually.

00;50;59;26 - 00;51;16;04
Joshua Hoffert
It really is. It really is. So, with that said, everybody, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for joining us on the journey. And, we will be talking more about the Attunement Center next week. And, the amygdala, I think is what we're going to be diving into. Yes.

00;51;16;05 - 00;51;17;07
Ken Hoffert
I always like that.

00;51;17;09 - 00;51;21;25
Joshua Hoffert
Yeah, yeah. Both part of the limbic system. Yeah. Your brain and your brain almost.

00;51;21;26 - 00;51;22;27
Ken Hoffert
I like to say.

00;51;22;29 - 00;51;45;03
Joshua Hoffert
There we go. So we go. I doubt I'll have more to say next episode. Yeah. So without without further ado, thanks so much, everybody for tuning in until next week. God bless.

00;51;45;06 - 00;51;45;22
Joshua Hoffert
You.