Fight, Flight, Freeze, Appease: The Amygdala, Healing, and Spiritual Growth

We've talked about the thalamus as the smoke detector of the brain, now its time to move on to layer 2: the amygdala. Once we have detected that external stimulus is happening, how we respond is largely influenced by how our amygdala has been formed since childhood. Tune in as Josh and Ken talk about the role of the amygdala and how we learn fight, flight, freeze, and appease responses.

For more about Wind Ministries, visit: https://www.windministries.ca/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

00;00;02;02 - 00;00;08;08
Speaker 1
I.

00;00;08;10 - 00;00;28;16
Speaker 1
When you're looking at the numbers across the board and you're tracking the trends, and I don't have this question in front of me, but I could find them. And look at the research that I've done. What you're looking at across the board is the trends. But the people that have a faith to rely on tend to have a greater level of emotion.

00;00;29;03 - 00;00;47;02
Speaker 1
okay. So you're right about that. That makes more sense because then there's a foundational, yes structure that you live with that says, I'm not going.

00;00;47;05 - 00;01;16;00
Speaker 1
And hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Wind Ministries podcast. And, yes, that's right. I'm Joshua Offutt, and I'm here with, my co-host. Hello. Ken Horvat. And, somehow related somehow. Same last name, same last name. I wonder where that came from. I wonder where that came. It doesn't even seem last name. Doesn't mean that you have to be related, but know Hoffer.

00;01;16;02 - 00;01;42;29
Speaker 1
It's not necessarily a common last name, so. Not so common. No. Yeah. That's right. And so but in your, in your we were in your birth name is John, but you know, you go by Ken because you're so no initials are j offered just like your. And my initials. That's right. Yeah. That's right. So this is a there's a conspiracy.

00;01;43;03 - 00;02;06;01
Speaker 1
There is. Yeah. We should go, you know. Well you didn't catch you didn't catch my good joke that you, you go by Ken because you're so knowledgeable. So that's, you know, that's a that's what I am. I will say this, I am I am enjoying a lovely cup of my personally roasted row pond and coffee and I.

00;02;06;01 - 00;02;27;13
Speaker 1
And the mug is nice. I want to thank Lisa, Teresa's cousin, for giving the mug. And and Teresa gave me permission to use this mug. Me. So I just want to. Okay, there you go. That. Well, let's say, you're one of your burgeoning passions. Is coffee roasting you. I am enjoying coffee after you got the roaster for your birthday.

00;02;27;13 - 00;02;52;02
Speaker 1
Is that what it was? Or for Christmas? Christmas? Yeah. So, you've been. He's he's been bragging. I've been on the journey. He's been bragging about his coffee roasting skills to me. Yeah, they're growing. Oh, they're growing at an exponential rate. Maybe eventually we'll have the Wind Ministries coffee roast. I could do that. Yeah. you don't mind having, like, a half a pound of coffee and that's it.

00;02;52;02 - 00;03;16;12
Speaker 1
But. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. So I guess it's the natural evolution of coffees with Ken. What? You you know that? Yes. Yeah. Coffee with Ken. Yeah. Coffee roasting with Ken. That's right, that's right. Coffee roasting and drinking with Ken. Yeah. Coffee tasting. Right. We could just keep going. You could just keep going. You're like. You're like, Forrest Gump.

00;03;16;15 - 00;03;44;28
Speaker 1
I know, like Forrest Gump. Do all the shrimp there. Yeah, yeah. That's right, that's right. The Bubba Gump shrimp company, right? Yeah. Well, we've been doing these episodes for the last, this is our sixth episode actually talking about, what it looks like to move into a place of spiritual and emotional health. Yeah. So we're calling that this this the, the spiritual health series or spiritual maturity series.

00;03;45;01 - 00;04;07;08
Speaker 1
Okay. And how do we mature and how do we go about growing? And we've we've talked about, is it is it is it do we just kind of by random happenstance and luck, do we happen to mature? Is it because, well, I guess God only has, you know, maybe it's the elect, only the elector. Oh, my God, you only those.

00;04;07;09 - 00;04;37;09
Speaker 1
I mean, you watch how you're connected. It might be only 144,000. I will say this. You know, the, the, the quote unquote elect in the, in the, the tulip Calvinistic sense, the reformed sense. Yeah. You know, I, I one of the, I would think you could characterize the fruit of the spirit in Galatians five around a lack of anger and an increasing affection or tenderness for God's creation.

00;04;37;11 - 00;05;00;19
Speaker 1
I think you could probably say that right. I think that's a fair assessment. That's surprising to me that the elect in the quote unquote reformed circle seemed to be more angry all the time and more critical. So anyway. Well, but only at the bad people. Only at the bad. That's right. Only at the bad people. Bad people. That's right.

00;05;00;21 - 00;05;24;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's right, isn't it? Isn't it, isn't it? you know, maybe it's maybe it's characterizing the words of Jesus, but could you say something like, if you just love the people that love you, that's just liking people with a like mind. You know, love is loving. Your love is love when it's loving your enemy. Yeah. And I think that's kind of what Jesus said in the sermon on the Mount.

00;05;24;12 - 00;05;52;27
Speaker 1
How dare you bring up that kind of biblical. Yeah. Truth stuff. You know, I was thinking about I was thinking about this where, Paul in Colossians one commends the church of Colossians, closet, colossi, colossi, colossi. Call us say, okay, there we go. Commends the church of call of say and says, the the plant of the gospel is taking root and bearing fruit.

00;05;52;29 - 00;06;20;07
Speaker 1
And the evidence of that is that a path for us has come to me and told me of the love that you have, right and not the right doctrine, not the right practice, not the right leadership principle. But it's the love that they have, the tenderness and the affection that they have for each other. And that's another interesting thing we could talk about on a at a different time is the in the, in the Greek there's three particular terms for love, right for Leo agape and arrows.

00;06;20;09 - 00;06;53;29
Speaker 1
And we, we tend to translate those as the same word love. But in the Greek they're three distinctly different concepts. They're not just different forms of love. They're actually very different concepts. You know, themselves, but but so anyway, so that's the that's expressions of affection up in some degree but varying varying kinds of expressions. Yeah. So just saying love is not really a, a helpful way of expressing what those particular.

00;06;54;06 - 00;07;12;12
Speaker 1
It's so it's such a limited concept. Yeah. In, English. Yeah. There's not the, the words aren't related to each other. Agape is not related to fellatio. And so I mean, if you. Yeah, if you are speaking Greek, you would not ever think I'm saying the same thing. Exactly. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Identifying a completely different concept. Yeah. Yeah.

00;07;12;12 - 00;07;43;18
Speaker 1
So so Paul. So anyway, that's a thing we could talk about for those of you who don't know, my dad, his degree is in classical languages. So, it's always good to bring up the Greek things to him. so, Paul, Paul says the, the evidence of the gospel is the love that they have, right? Yeah. And then one of the ways you see that so clearly, so clearly laid out, is actually in the book of Philemon.

00;07;43;18 - 00;08;11;03
Speaker 1
Philemon by Leman. What am I thinking? Yeah, is in the book of Philemon, where Paul tells or or Paul tells Philemon to treat Onassis as his slave. That's run away and most likely stolen stuff from him and wronged him. Yeah. And left him in the lurch. His his slave, this runaway. Paul is asked for Philemon to treat Onassis as if Paul is that Onassis.

00;08;11;10 - 00;08;32;26
Speaker 1
Is Paul, right? Right. Which is? Forgive him. Restore him now, not just give him work again, but now he's your equal. He's your brother, right? Yeah. Treat him right. Treat him as your equal. So? So this is the gospel. Really really astonishing. Never going amount. Oh yeah. It's significant not just go. Yeah. It's not just well would you forgive him.

00;08;32;26 - 00;09;02;04
Speaker 1
And then, you know, you guys can live on other sides of the city right. Yeah. He's saying actually no, I, I'm my expectation is that the way the gospel takes root is that tender affection is restored between the two of you. Yeah. And, and that's a significant thing, you know, because when we're looking at spiritual maturity, the, the mark and the aim, which Paul says is to first Timothy and to Timothy in first Timothy, he says, the aim of our charge is love.

00;09;02;06 - 00;09;24;21
Speaker 1
That's what the aim, the aim is love from a clear conscience, a sound mind and, and a devout faith basically is what he says, which all those things, actually, the word sound mind literally means mental health. And, a mind that's functioning clearly and properly. So the aim of our charge is love and not the aim of our church is not sound doctrine.

00;09;24;23 - 00;09;55;00
Speaker 1
The aim of our charge is love and then the result of sound of love should be sound doctrine. We're not saying we we're not about sound doctrine, which is said, by the way, and this is probably important to point out these days in, and in Western culture that this, this concept of a sound mind or mental health is spoken about within the context of a belief structure in a deity.

00;09;55;02 - 00;10;27;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a vision that creates and much of of our current, culture, considers that a sign of a lack of mental health. Yeah. When you are actually having a belief structure or a system of looking at the world or way of looking at the world, that includes your an engagement with the creator. Well, it's it is, it is almost and actually, I think he talks to you, the creator.

00;10;27;29 - 00;10;58;24
Speaker 1
But talk to me it's an in it's an it is an incontrovertible fact that a robust the the the more solid a person's faith in the sense of, I have a belief structure. Right? There's different ways we can use that word faith, but in the sense that I have a belief structure, a belief in a deity, the more subtle it and robust a person's faith, the more consistently in the in the statistics.

00;10;58;24 - 00;11;16;19
Speaker 1
That person is a emotionally healthy person. And it is. It can even be. I think you're going to have to define that a little bit more than that. Just okay. So because could because a lot of people would say, I have a lot and that you would think that they have a lot of faith but they somehow they're wonky.

00;11;16;19 - 00;11;39;17
Speaker 1
Okay. So when you're when you're looking at the numbers across the board and you're tracking the trends, and I don't have the statistics in front of me, but I could find them in the in the research that I've done. When you're looking across the board at the trends, the, the people that have a faith to rely on tend to have a greater level of emotional, okay.

00;11;39;19 - 00;12;04;25
Speaker 1
So they will help, right? Oh, that makes more sense because then there's a foundational, yes structure that you live within that says, I'm not alone in this world. Yes, exactly. And so those those that you can find, study after study after study after study that will show that that in terms of emotional health, faith can be one of the factors that contribute to that.

00;12;04;26 - 00;12;31;24
Speaker 1
Right. And it's well, because it's controversial. If someone feels all alone and disconnected, yeah, it's going to take a toll on their mental health, as we say. So. Well, so those are those are all kind of precursors to what we're talking about today. because we're talking about emotional and spiritual health. And we've defined emotional and spiritual health, as they're not two sides of the same coin.

00;12;31;28 - 00;13;08;27
Speaker 1
The emotional health is, we're defining as the ability of the human being to to not lose sight of themselves when they experience strong, difficult emotions. Right. That's where we see emotional health in action, is there. Right. And that's kind of the that gives us the the measuring line for it. And spiritual health we would define as the ability to convey in a functional way how aware I am of what God is like, what his thoughts are about me, and how I can communicate that to others.

00;13;09;00 - 00;13;33;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, that's that's kind of just to try and localize it a little bit. So, we're not saying spiritual health is I, you know, I think it's it's fair, it's simple, it's easy to grasp. And, so that's what we're saying. So the question when it comes to, spiritual maturity, maturity in general, spiritual maturity, the ability to convey those things in increasingly clear ways.

00;13;33;09 - 00;14;10;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. this is what the father's like. And now I have a level, a measure of, a a measure of reducing anxiety and increasing peace because I understand what he's like, that he's for me, that I have that base to draw on, that I'm not alone in the world. Right. So, one of the questions that I, I, I find people asking and thinking about, especially on this journey of self recovery, is why is there such a large gap between who I am and who I want to be?

00;14;10;22 - 00;14;33;17
Speaker 1
And and that's essentially why we're doing a series like this. So why is there a gap there? And because everybody experiences a gap in, in that space. Every single person on the face of the earth does, we have an idea of who we are, and then we have the reality of who we are. And, yeah, sadly, yes.

00;14;33;19 - 00;14;56;28
Speaker 1
And the more those two things do not square with each other, the more cognitive dissonance you will wrestle with in your life. And, my, that that, and cognitive dissonance I would describe as that the vague, unsettling feeling of not belonging, not fitting in and not knowing why things aren't functioning the way they should function in my life.

00;14;56;29 - 00;15;20;28
Speaker 1
Well, yeah, because if you have dissonance, you can have it's the infinite musical perspective. It's the lack of harmony, the lack of a, of a tune that flows together. Exactly. Yeah. When you have dissonance, your brain, your cognitive function. Yeah. Is is not playing the same notes. Yeah. There's discordant notes in there and you're like like, so why am I taking this thought over here?

00;15;20;28 - 00;15;37;15
Speaker 1
And then over here I've got this one and nothing seems to connect. Yeah. And we look for and it's one of those things in music that you, you might go off, I love jazz and you might go off on a, on a tangent and go over here and go over here. But the beauty of it is when you bring it back to resolution.

00;15;37;15 - 00;15;59;28
Speaker 1
Right? And it's it's not that the that the tangent has to be too awkward. Is that it, that you're waiting for it to be resolved? Right. It's back in with the rest of things. And when it's not resolved, I feel like I got left behind and I don't know what's going on. And that's sad dissonance. And some great composers take advantage of that right there.

00;16;00;04 - 00;16;27;05
Speaker 1
They leave you lingering on that note and you're going, why? It's not finishing. Yeah, it's not there. Right. It's the discordant note. It's a, it's a it's a really brilliant way of manipulating someone's emotions. Yes. In a, in a musical setting. In a good way. so I've got a quote, as we're because today we're dealing with the second layer of the brain, moving on from when we talked about the first layer of the brain, the first stage of development being the attachment center.

00;16;27;13 - 00;16;44;25
Speaker 1
Now we're going to talk about. Yeah. Right. So that's the part of the brain that develops first and foremost. And as the brain is, it's not that you don't have a brain is that these these parts of the brain have the most industry happening around them at this. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And so there's certain ages of this all happened.

00;16;44;28 - 00;17;08;00
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. That they're formed in. So we're talking about the assessment center today which is characterized by the amygdala and what we typically call your fight or flight response. Right. And we're going to tease that out a little bit. There's a here's I got this quote from a Greek Orthodox, scholar. Of course you do. Yes. Callisto, where I'm trying to learn from all kinds.

00;17;08;03 - 00;17;35;00
Speaker 1
Okay, Callisto, swear. Yeah. Hey, you raised me like this, so it's my fault. Yeah, and he's talking about a various of Adria's. was an early, an early monastic figure in the, It's not a big deal about, you know, evergreens. Zagreus of Pontus Zagreus, a solitary. He was an early, you know, fourth, fifth century church, desert father, church father, monastic father.

00;17;35;02 - 00;18;03;17
Speaker 1
And it says he's it is talking about his concern for his disciples. And so Callisto wrote this about the various there is no doubt that a various was deeply concerned with the quest for Hezekiah, which is the the the life of a peaceful spiritual person. The Hezekiah is the word for peace, quiet, stillness. It's transient throughout the, New Testament for inner stillness or silence of the heart.

00;18;03;19 - 00;18;33;18
Speaker 1
He wanted his disciples to advance when praying for multiplicity to simplicity, from discursive argumentation to unitive awareness, from talking and thinking about God to being with him. Okay. And I read that and I thought, yeah, that's pretty much, you know, we might not use the same language, but that's pretty much what our goal is, is to move from arguing about God to being aware that he's I'm in a union with him.

00;18;33;21 - 00;19;05;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so to thinking about God from thinking about God to being aware that I'm present with him. And and part of the reason I bring that up is because a, there is a, there is, you know, we have because I maybe it's less so, today, but cultural Christianity is a thing, right? I'm, I am Christian because I like I was listening to an interview with, a guy named Alex O'Connor who's an atheist.

00;19;05;29 - 00;19;29;27
Speaker 1
Agnostic, I think. And he was, being interviewed, interviewing slash, interviewing Jordan Peterson. Yeah. And, it was a fascinating interview. Was like two hours long. And they I love listening to that kind of stuff. But what was interesting is this kind of this idea has entered into our lexicon. That and people have been pointing it out with, a statement Richard Dawkins made.

00;19;30;09 - 00;19;57;16
Speaker 1
not that long ago, how he's come to the conclusion that society is better off with religion, but he doesn't like that. So he lives as if he's Christian, but he doesn't consider himself Christian. All right. Right. And and so this kind of idea has entered into the public consciousness. Is that, well, yeah. And and Jordan Peterson was essentially making the case that Alex O'Connor is basically a Christian because he's fighting for the truth.

00;19;57;16 - 00;20;20;10
Speaker 1
He's expressing his logos through ordered speech and all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, no, but it's but I get what he's saying. That's not what makes that's not that's not what defines a Christian. Right. Yeah, but it is so what defines a. Human being that is looking towards a moral. Yes. Or a nation of life. Yes. So yes.

00;20;20;13 - 00;20;53;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. So we're that's what I'm trying to say is that in doing this, our goal is not that we create people that talk more about God, but that recognize he is with us and we are with him. So anyway, and, and I think more in more than just a feeling sort of a way. Yeah. So become you become, spiritually aware of that, but you also become your brain begins to change so that you become a cognizant cognizant of that presence as well.

00;20;53;26 - 00;21;15;09
Speaker 1
Like, for instance, we we hit my wife and I have some big decisions we're trying to work through right now. Right. And our in the backdrop of all these decisions is, will the father provide for us? Not the father is in you, but will the father provide for us? And and what is the thing that he would have us do?

00;21;15;09 - 00;21;46;24
Speaker 1
Right. So I'm I'm not I'm not like, going I'm having a an experience of his presence. But I am, aware I'm, I am, you know, like, this is where it says unitive awareness. Right? I'm aware that my life revolves around him and every decision that we're making revolves around him. And so what spontaneously erupts in our conversation is, you know, trust God will provide these kind of things, right.

00;21;46;26 - 00;22;11;03
Speaker 1
This spontaneously comes into the conversation because it's a part of our awareness of who we are and where we're going. And so it's not so much having a cognizant awareness of the the sweetness of God's presence, as it were. But it's I'm I that does happen. But it's my whole life revolves around him in my life. And, that's part of what we're talking about.

00;22;12;09 - 00;22;31;01
Speaker 1
so as the what we've been talking about in spiritual maturity and, defining that and looking through that, and periodically revisiting it, which is what we did in the first we're doing in the first part of this episode, we want to talk about is the second stage of brain development, building off of our last episode with the first stage of brain brain development.

00;22;31;01 - 00;23;14;04
Speaker 1
Right. And, because the and the reason we're talking about this, too, is that, the, the factors that produce spiritual maturity are not, are not, random and haphazard, but they are intentional and they are predictable. All right. And so where we talked about in the last episode that the Attachment Center, which is responsible for, those first few years of learning to recover yourself and be a person who has a strong sense of identity, that other people are caring for me and I can receive.

00;23;14;11 - 00;23;40;11
Speaker 1
And in receiving, I can learn to relax and be myself. Right. Because I can trust in the receipt. Exactly right. Yeah. So the attachment center is that I live from a place of trust. I yeah, I want to say this about that trust and that's that, we learn to trust in that because it's not associated with pain that that doesn't or rejection that doesn't get resolved.

00;23;40;13 - 00;24;05;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. So when I have a need, right, like I'm hungry and I express that as an infant, I have a parental figure who comes and helps me recover and fit and fix that need not fix that, but and I could and I find that if I cry out, yeah, I, I will have somebody respond to me and, and not just respond to me in anger, but respond to me in love and and resolve my need.

00;24;05;27 - 00;24;28;10
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. So I know not everybody gets that. Yeah. That's right. And now I'm a now I'm attached in the sense of I'm attached to my humanity. I'm attached to other humans, and I trust that I'll be okay. Trust that human right there. Yeah. And so we have then we we'll get into later attachment theory and how that how the, the the different experiences growing up develop different types of attachment.

00;24;28;13 - 00;24;51;19
Speaker 1
So the next stage that begins to develop in the childhood stage, and we'll talk more about the factors of the childhood stage in another episode is the is the assessment center, which is, like I said, what we call the fight and flight response of flight. Fight or flight. Yeah. And it's it's characterized by the amygdala. And so now we're still talking about back of the brain, back of the brain, back of the head.

00;24;51;23 - 00;25;21;25
Speaker 1
We're not talking about the prefrontal cortex. Right. We're not talking about the higher those the brain develops through stages. And the amygdala is called the assessment center. it's called fight or flight because it is and it's called the assessment center because it assesses the nature of the thing in front of you. and basically what happens with, with the first stage of the brain is, is where that's the very first place you interact with the world, like it's the first state place an infant interacts with the world.

00;25;21;25 - 00;25;48;10
Speaker 1
That's the first stage. We interact with the world in adults. It's the first part of our brain that makes us aware that we exist in our present. Right. And and so now it's now what happens is I'm faced with a stimulus, meaning some kind of thing happens, which is happening to me constantly. And, and I'm aware of it happening because I'm my attachment center is has established itself.

00;25;48;17 - 00;26;10;12
Speaker 1
And now the attachment center says, hey, I'm seeing this thing. what do you think about it? Right. So, so I love, the, the Jim while there and Marcus Warner and those guys, they talk about the elevator in the elevator. Right, right, right. And so the the, attachment center goes, I've got I'm aware of something, right?

00;26;10;12 - 00;26;29;19
Speaker 1
I'm aware of something. There's a Kleenex box in front of me. Right. So now it shows. It flows it up to my assessment center. I my assessment center looks at the Kleenex box and goes, well, what do we use this thing for? Right, right. And it's searching its memory, searching emotions, trying to figure out how do I connect with that thing.

00;26;29;19 - 00;26;54;21
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. And and if I'm have a runny nose, then I'm very happy to see that thing. Right, right. My assessment center is assessing my response to the things in the world. Right. And and so it my assessment center tells me, is this thing a threat or is it not? Right. So I look at the Kleenex box and I go, oh, that's not a threat.

00;26;54;23 - 00;27;17;22
Speaker 1
And so now I can feed it up past my assessment center and go, this isn't a threat, guys. What do we need to use this for? Right. So so this is what this is the this is where we're stuck at now is the amygdala is the assessment center. And basically what happens when the assessment center is well developed.

00;27;17;24 - 00;27;45;16
Speaker 1
And and well developed in the sense that it hasn't been hindered in its developmental process through either. Well, the different kinds of trauma that we can and that can impact us in the childhood stage. Right, which we haven't been really discussing, but we will. Yeah. It's basically saying when it comes across a stimuli, a thing coming towards it, it's going, okay, calm down.

00;27;45;18 - 00;28;07;21
Speaker 1
This is okay. Right? We're going to be fine. You know, all these chemicals that that, you know, someone rushed up behind me and grabbed me on the shoulder and immediately my body goes, what's right? What's going on that's happening? Sees the face and goes, okay, that's my best friend. Yeah, that's my best friend. We recognize this person now.

00;28;07;21 - 00;28;33;09
Speaker 1
It's feeding, feeding the the assessment up the chain. Right. And so in a healthy way, it helps us to, to to respond properly. If someone cuts us off in traffic and we need to. What just happened right now I've got you can't say that in Western culture, but people you can't. I mean, if someone cuts you up in traffic, what are you supposed to do?

00;28;33;11 - 00;28;55;28
Speaker 1
And tailgate them, flash your lights out. right. And your horn yells or any other story for three days when you get home, if you're in Florida or Texas, pull your gun on. Oh, you got on them. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wait, wait. Oh, yeah. That might have some issues. This part of the brain. Yeah. That's right. So the assessment center is going I've just been cut off.

00;28;56;03 - 00;29;17;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well I need to and it's you know, my chemicals are on overdrive. I'm not hyper aware. And now I need to respond to this particular the threat of the looming vehicle in front of me by pressing the brakes. Right, so that when the assessment center is working well, it warns us of threats. Right. And and, Tulsa and then all the rest of you have to navigate those right.

00;29;17;05 - 00;29;39;15
Speaker 1
It says it looks at the car and says this is a threat, you know, tail lights. And then it goes up to the attunement center. And what do we do about it? Yeah. What do we do about it? We press the brakes. Right. so it says this is a threat. We need to respond. Right. And all of that's happening in just nano nanoseconds, nanoseconds before that happens, before conscious thought.

00;29;39;15 - 00;30;11;00
Speaker 1
It's pre conscious thought, not even subconscious thought. It's pre conscious thought. Right. so that let's see just changing something there. So so that's when it's working in its functional operation. Right. When it's, you've got a strong healthy attachment. And so now you're out of that outer strength of that attachment, I can now look at something and determine, is it safe or is it not safe.

00;30;11;02 - 00;30;44;25
Speaker 1
Yes I can I can at least make some determination, out of a healthy, attachment. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So, the amygdala is where essentially where emotional memory is stored. And, and this is where, where we get into trouble. well, because emotional memory is very different than what we typically describe as memory, because emotional memory doesn't have language necessarily.

00;30;44;27 - 00;31;05;28
Speaker 1
It has emotions. It's the language of emotions, but it's a very different kind of language. it's it's it's a feel. It is a feel. Yeah. And so, and this is where we can respond to it. We talked about this last week Pre-Verbal trauma. Right. And again, we're going to talk more about types of trauma and impact of trauma.

00;31;05;28 - 00;31;29;17
Speaker 1
But it's germane to the conversation. So it keeps coming up. so say I have a well let's go extreme case. I have a physically abusive parent, and I don't think that's as extreme as we think. No, it's not, it's it's far too common. Yeah. The statistics on let's hope let's hope that you're in a situation where that's not true.

00;31;29;17 - 00;31;50;20
Speaker 1
But if you are right, you know, I think it's what is it. It's at least the, the the statistics. At least 1 in 4 children have are a victim of sexual abuse of some kind. I would imagine that's true. and it changes based on the gender. It's more dramatic or less traumatic, but it's it's a significant amount.

00;31;50;20 - 00;32;20;13
Speaker 1
Right. It's there were not people tend to think it doesn't happen as much as it does, but it it happens a lot. Yeah. We'll say it's physical abuse. Right. Let's just go. There's a physically abusive, spouse. That's right. Damaging hurting. you know, not calming the child down, but responding in anger and lashing out. Right? Right. So so what happens is your body begins to learn, that that person is a threat, right?

00;32;20;16 - 00;32;51;12
Speaker 1
And so now when your, assessment center sees that person right off the bat, you've got an autonomic nervous system response because they've been assessed as a threat. Right? Right. Because they hurt me in the past and they'll continue to hurt me. Right. And so, and the problem that the I mean, there's so much we could say about this, but the problem most people I think about when we talk about trauma, most people think of trauma as the triggering event.

00;32;51;15 - 00;33;14;21
Speaker 1
But trauma isn't the triggering event. Trauma is the lingering impact on the brain and the body that the event had right. And so trauma is actually the the cortisol that's injected into my system that never discharges. my body learns to function with a heightened awareness of danger and fear. So it's not the event. The event triggers it.

00;33;14;21 - 00;33;37;05
Speaker 1
It's the actual the actual response that never gets discharged. And worked through this. So you wrote that book The Body Keeps the score. Yeah. Bessel van der colon. Yeah. Which which is a great book. because it talks about how we store these things and how they. Yeah, just in our body. Yeah. That's right. And how that affects how we interact with the world around us.

00;33;37;05 - 00;34;14;12
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And and actually there's another, another good, book that pulls that stuff apart called Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. Both these guys are not we're not talking about Christian authors, right? We're just seeing trends that biblical truths help us address that wisdom. because, yeah, there's just us. Yeah. So, so the basically when when you've assessed a threat because of circumstances, the emotional memory takes over and, and fear is present and your palms get sweaty, your face gets flushed, your body's responding as if there's a threat in front of you.

00;34;14;15 - 00;34;39;27
Speaker 1
Right? It's it's trying to give you a hyper awareness so that you have the, the, the, your nervous system response, and you can respond kind of get the, the camera reflexes, you know, reflexes. That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah. So your reflexes are on overdrive, right. So you there's four typical responses that human beings, have and share.

00;34;39;27 - 00;35;06;05
Speaker 1
Actually, three of them with animals and, animal kingdom fight, flight. Freeze. Appease. Those are the four, right. appease is something humans do appeases and something animals do. so in fight or flight, right. You think of a, there's a, there's a great video, where a, a deer is being attacked by a cheetah.

00;35;06;08 - 00;35;26;26
Speaker 1
And the the deer initially sees the threat of the cheetah and tries to try as flight. Right, assessing the threat, going. I'm not going to win this battle. Right, right. So I'm going to fight. I'm going to fight. Yeah. And then when the cheetah catches the deer, now it's moved on to a freeze response. Because the freeze response basically is called an immobility response.

00;35;26;29 - 00;35;55;14
Speaker 1
The immobility response discharges certain chemicals into the body. Right. So that the body of the deer will will, lay itself down and prepare to die. Okay. It's basically deadening the feeling and numbing the feeling in the sensation. So I'm going to die. My body's preparing me for death and, there's a video. Where then in this video, I'm thinking of the deer is attacked by the, the, the cheetah.

00;35;55;14 - 00;36;32;00
Speaker 1
And then some hyenas show up and chase the cheetah away, and they all get into a fight and forget about the deer. Few minutes go by and the deer starts to get back up, and the deer is shaking wildly, like, visibly. Or what the deer is doing is it's discharging the, the chemical reaction that came into its body, one to give it the adrenaline that it needed for the flight response, and two, the chemicals that deadened its nerves so that it wouldn't feel the pain of as much of the pain of the, jaguar's response, or the cheetah's response.

00;36;32;02 - 00;37;02;00
Speaker 1
Cheetahs bite. And, and so it shakes them all off and then gets up and runs off to go join his pack. None the worse for wear, right? Basically in a, in a, in a kind of cognitive emotional sense. Right. you know, maybe they've been scratched and bitten and all that. So there is some where there. And the difference between the deer and the human is that the humans shaking off process is far more complicated.

00;37;02;02 - 00;37;32;06
Speaker 1
And, and without the, the supportive, loving community, without the kind of wise, loving parental units, without supportive friends that can build the person up. you know, there's it's next to impossible to discharge the traumatized, the trauma response. And so the deer has it baked into themselves. And you might it may be like humans get tired after having an event like that.

00;37;32;06 - 00;38;01;29
Speaker 1
Right? The body is on overdrive. There's certain things that are bio biochemical responses, and then we don't listen to those. We don't pay attention to those. We don't have the people that help us walk through that. Now you have a whole generation of traumatized individuals. And so you have this advent of, pharmaceutical care and, the helping, you know, the help of the therapeutic industry, that kind of stuff is, is all because people have, discharge trauma.

00;38;02;01 - 00;38;28;10
Speaker 1
Right. And, and and there and so now what happens is that later in life. Right. You never had someone help you work through that later in life. Now your body is learned that when these kind of people come into my my circle. All right. I'm my assessment center, my amygdala, because it's been damaged. My or it's just the way that it's developed has been hindered by the way people have treated me right.

00;38;28;28 - 00;38;51;25
Speaker 1
it's not really damage in that sense, because recovery is always a thing. now I see a person. Maybe that person is a little bit older than me. There are. They could be a father figure. But my as my assessment center, the amygdala goes, they're a threat. Because I remember in my emotional memory how they treated me and how I felt.

00;38;51;25 - 00;39;12;07
Speaker 1
And all of a sudden my face is flushed, my palms are sweaty, I'm nervous and I don't know how to respond. And I freeze right. Well, and then later I go, why did I respond that way? What happened to me? What happened to you was that your amygdala assessed that as a threat based on your experience, your history, and your memory, and you don't even realize it.

00;39;12;07 - 00;39;36;05
Speaker 1
And you had a fear response and you froze right? Because I don't know what to do. Nobody helped me learn that I could. Fighting and fighting it, fight or flight is actually a better response because those typically discharge the emotions. Right? discharge the chemicals. So the flight response is adrenaline. I use the adrenaline when I run, and then I have discharged it by running.

00;39;36;07 - 00;40;01;02
Speaker 1
Right. But when I freeze, I'm stuck. And all that, all those chemicals stay right there. Right. A piece is very similar. I respond very, subjective or not, subjectively subjugating Lee. Right? I try and appease the situation rather than actually respond to the situation. And so so you can see in describing that attachment trust. I'm doing good now.

00;40;01;02 - 00;40;18;10
Speaker 1
I've got a trauma. I don't have anybody to help me process this. Something bad has happened. My assessment center has learned this kind of person is bad. When this kind of thing happens, I need to respond. And now it feeds it up through the attunement center into the executive center. And and the executive center is already going well.

00;40;18;11 - 00;40;37;24
Speaker 1
Wait a second. Guys. Like, it's just a person, but it's too late, right? There's the executive center is the realm of conscious thought. That's just a person. They're perfectly fine. But down here I've already. I've already committed. you've already committed exactly that. My body and that part of my brain is already committed. So the thought doesn't make.

00;40;37;25 - 00;40;58;13
Speaker 1
Doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Without addressing that, the best you can do is try and convince yourself it's okay. There's no skill you do on tools to walk yourself backwards. But yes, but it's still a process of having to get rid of what you and like how you initially responded. Yes, you know, the opposite of a lot of that is true too.

00;40;58;16 - 00;41;23;02
Speaker 1
So it's because we focus on the negative a lot of times because of how the doubt, the damages. But I remember right, I was doing I was interpreting dreams at a, outdoor event. I won that one time. And, this this couple came in and they had their, their young son with them, and I guess their young son didn't have a lot of social interaction.

00;41;23;03 - 00;42;00;14
Speaker 1
It didn't it was not fully developed, in every way. And, and, but he, he really, really began to enjoy hanging out with me. Right. And, you know, the parents were kind of amazed. And there and then they, they finally realized that I looked like his grandfather because of my white beard and all this and that. And so it it was a so, so though we associate some things with a fear of fire, he could come and take his brain.

00;42;00;15 - 00;42;25;06
Speaker 1
Could say to him, even though he wasn't fully, you know, wasn't really developing completely developed completely. His brain could say, hey, I, I know that my experience with that kind of person right there has been that they have been kind to me and they have been growing me. And I can trust that. And so we come to that place of fight or flight.

00;42;26;03 - 00;42;52;23
Speaker 1
but that's our emotional response for trying to determine whether we can trust that thing. And if we can't trust it, then we don't have to do either of those things. We can just rest. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah, we can just get that. But sadly not every there's, there's a large percentage of our population that all of us really at some to some degree are going to react first and foremost.

00;42;53;18 - 00;43;19;04
Speaker 1
out of these, this lack of, of Healthy. Approaches because, because of trauma. Yeah. Let me go back to the trauma. We talk about trauma a lot. We just, you know, there there are good and and bad responses to all of this. So. Yeah. So here's something here. I'm just gonna read a quote from Bessel van der Kolk from The Body Keeps the score.

00;43;19;07 - 00;43;40;04
Speaker 1
He's he calls the amygdala the smoke detector of the brain. We've said that before. but that's where we're saying is the assessment center, right. and starts developing, starts, it's starts, it's, what was the word you used it. It's it's developed. I can where you used a particular word. That was really good. Anyway, around the age of two is when it really starts to develop.

00;43;40;16 - 00;44;05;20
Speaker 1
he said while the smoke detector is usually pretty good at picking up danger clues, trauma increases the risk of misinterpreting whether a particular situation is dangerous or safe. Yeah, you can get along with other people only if you accurately gauge whether their intentions are benign or dangerous. Straight you right? You know, woman walking down the street at night looks at a stranger and goes right, immediately assessing that this is a danger.

00;44;05;20 - 00;44;25;03
Speaker 1
Risk, right? Because of what's happened, the stories I've heard all that stuff. Right? Maybe it's happened to them right. And so I, I if I can't accurately gauge whether they're benign or dangerous, I'm going to respond in a way, from my heightened awareness. Right. And in that sense, it's good. You know, you need to be on aware for that.

00;44;25;03 - 00;44;49;27
Speaker 1
And in that, in a situation like that, that's your body's right. Why you have it. Right. That's that's why you have it. Yeah. So then he said this. Even so, he says even a slight misreading can lead to painful misunderstandings in relationships at home. And at work. Yeah, right. So say that person that's walking towards you is actually your husband or your boyfriend, and you can't see him because of the shadows on the street.

00;44;49;27 - 00;45;16;17
Speaker 1
You can't tell, right? Yeah. So you pull out your town of mace and mace him down, right. Without realizing. Kind of mesa, right? Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Right. So now we've we've inaccurately assessed the situation because of a way that our amygdala, the smoke detector, has assessed the situation because of memories and emotions, right? That have been fed into the amygdala.

00;45;16;20 - 00;45;47;25
Speaker 1
And now, because I've done that, I've actually ticked someone off versus it could be a, an actual abuser. And now you actually are prepared to fight could be a dangerous situation. It could be a dangerous situation. So the ability to accurately assess whether a threat, whether that's a threat or not, is really important, and especially for maintaining, deep, intimate relationships where I can grow and thrive in relative stability if I can't accurately assess their their intention to me.

00;45;47;27 - 00;46;14;07
Speaker 1
And part of that is because of trauma that's stored in the amygdala or other parts of the brain. You know, you know, it doesn't have to be just the amygdala. The amygdala is the place that assesses that. I'm going to have a really hard time maintaining functional relationships, right. I'm going to assess they didn't they know that that the my, significant other boyfriend girlfriend spouse hasn't texted me in three days.

00;46;14;10 - 00;46;41;03
Speaker 1
Right. Well, they don't love me anymore. The last time someone did this to me, right now, I've got emotional memory coming in. I'm assessing them as a threat. I'm responding accordingly. Right. So all that stuff can can hinder our ability to walk and maintain healthy, integrated relationships, which, in order to rewire, reframe our assessment center, requires healthy, committed relationships.

00;46;41;05 - 00;46;58;07
Speaker 1
Like I can't do it without actually seeing other people do it and learning a whole different way of being. I need other people in my life to be able to, because I can't see myself in light of who I am without other people around me, I can't, I don't, I don't know who I am without other people interacting with me.

00;46;58;12 - 00;47;28;13
Speaker 1
You literally, as a human, can't define yourself without other people. It's pretty much impossible. Not an island. You're not an island? No. That's Thomas Merton or not Thomas. Yeah. Thomas Merton, no man is an island, right? You're not an island. Yeah. And so I actually need the support of a healthy community to be able to recover. And therein lies the genius of what we were saying earlier, with Paul's expectation of what happens when the gospel takes root in the city of Colossae.

00;47;28;14 - 00;47;56;16
Speaker 1
Colossae is now. We've got a vibrant, loving, affectionate, tender, forgiving, supportive community helping people recover themselves so Paul can send a pessimist to file them on. For Neiman, because he can go. The gospel is flourishing. They're not because they know, not because all of them have said the sinner's prayer, but because the fruit of the spirit is is evident in their midst.

00;47;56;23 - 00;48;22;23
Speaker 1
And the love that that Jesus came and expected and then gave us the pathway to a to appreciate through the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Now that's taking root. And so now I'm recovering myself because I see what it's like to participate as a human being in a healthy, vibrant community. Right, right. So the amygdala that the omega, the attachment center.

00;48;22;25 - 00;48;51;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. of the brain assessment or attachment, the attachment center. Yeah. Attachment. Yeah. That just helps us. Yeah. What the. Yeah. So the attachment center, that which is that first part that develops helps us to see the to see whether we can trust people in the world. How do we trust, how do we engage. Yeah. So then then you're saying that the assessment center helps us to see what's safe and what isn't safe in the world.

00;48;51;03 - 00;49;13;18
Speaker 1
So exactly. So, so in the the genius of God creating human humanity, we first learn to trust. We second learn to determine whether things are safe or not. Safe. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So we don't know if it's safe or not safe. First, we learn to connect and out of our connections. It's just I think that's the beauty of it.

00;49;13;18 - 00;49;38;26
Speaker 1
Out of our connection, out of healthy connections. We can then assess the situations in the world around us to determine if there's what, what are, what the, and so that we can then make a determination further up the road what what a response would likely be. But one flows into the other. Would you say that's true. Yeah. And actually you can see that, reflected in the story of creation in Genesis one, two and three.

00;49;38;29 - 00;50;03;03
Speaker 1
Right? The first the first thing is God creates Adam. And then, gives him instruction, walks with him and gives him provision. Right. It says here's you can eat of any tree in the garden. Right. So now I can trust that take, I'm being taken care of, I'm being nourished. Right. And now and now I'm given another a partner and Eve.

00;50;03;06 - 00;50;25;18
Speaker 1
Right, right. And now I'm assessing myself in light of her. Right? Right. So you can see you can actually see the stages of brain development in the creation narrative. And, and then you've got attunement with the snake and executive function in overwriting what God said would be good. So you can see the, the, the various stages of maturity happening.

00;50;25;25 - 00;51;07;23
Speaker 1
All right. Yeah. Yeah. Well where it breaks down, right where it breaks, right. and it's a, it's a well, it's incredibly helpful to recognize and understand that, my responses to certain situations are, oh, that's simply how I've learned to be right. And now I need to learn another way of being. Well. And I think when we when we kind of as in our relationships in the world, we look at someone and say, man, that that person is acting in such an immature fashion.

00;51;07;25 - 00;51;40;04
Speaker 1
Sure. When we think that we don't always say it, but when we think that or some rendition of that, we're recognizing that they have, they are not responding to the world in a healthy way. Yeah, that's right. And we see that in ourselves as well. Like, why do I do the things that I do? I'm not responding to the world and the relationships around me that I know cognitively when I, when I, when my brain starts working on the other side, that these are people I can trust.

00;51;40;06 - 00;52;04;19
Speaker 1
But when I, when I first see something I don't trust. Yeah. You know, and I think that happens to a lot of people is, I, I don't trust and I don't know why, but when I think about it, I should trust. And then I can't understand why I break these relationships on a regular basis. These are going to be some things we talk about over the coming weeks.

00;52;04;19 - 00;52;23;24
Speaker 1
Is that right? how how we get there and how we get out of there. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But it does have to do with how the brain develops and why it develops the way that it does develops, so that we can help ourselves walk into maturity. And there are ways to watch it, to learn how to walk in maturity is not true.

00;52;23;25 - 00;53;14;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. otherwise, this whole endeavor, the whole endeavor of human life is, you know what? Eat, poop and breathe and then die. That is some philosophies of us. Yeah. I mean, that's when you when you pull the creator out of the equation. Yeah. Interesting. It's interesting what you're left with that. My first point of contact with in in a, in a Christian sense, spiritual formation since my first point of contact with healing, the, the kind of healing the, the kind of responses I have is with my point of contact with God.

00;53;14;16 - 00;53;35;17
Speaker 1
Sure, he begins to reframe what that's like, which is why, you know, in a way, going back to what we were saying earlier, it's, it's a travesty that God has been communicated to people as being full of wrath versus being full of love. Right. And, and, and that being the thing that's emphasized to bring people into an awareness of the gospel.

00;53;35;17 - 00;53;57;01
Speaker 1
Well, you need to be afraid of God because he's going to send you to hell. Yeah. when my first point of contact with him is his love and his tenderness and, because if I, if my first point of contact is, again, fear, you know, it's no wonder that we have certain people that are elected. Well, I was elected because their amygdala is a bit healthier.

00;53;57;04 - 00;54;24;13
Speaker 1
And I think that's, when when John and his gospel writes in, in, chapter three and he's having this conversation with Nicodemus, that God loved the world in such a fashion that he sent his only son. Yeah, but but we always, we not always, but we often just pay attention to that. God so loved the world that he gave his only son.

00;54;26;02 - 00;54;50;18
Speaker 1
and he goes on to say. Yeah, exactly. He didn't come into the world to condemn the world. Yeah. He didn't come into the world to to create a wrathful situation. let me read that, because I think it's just, Yeah, go for it. I mean, I grab that real quick. Give me a second here.

00;54;51;23 - 00;55;15;27
Speaker 1
and there's so many different translations. Read it. But it says God loved the world so much that he gave his only son. So that everyone who believes in him may not perish but have eternal life. And that we quote that we put that up on signboards at football games. Right? Messed up. indeed. God did not send the son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him and saved is what it said.

00;55;15;27 - 00;55;38;06
Speaker 1
Sozo word, which is, a word for healing and restoring, bringing to help other. Yes, it's so when we say saved through him not it's not this thing of salvation that people talk about where I'm either going to heaven or I'm not. I'm going to hell. One of those two. That's not what he's saying here. Yeah, he said he didn't come to the world.

00;55;38;13 - 00;56;07;15
Speaker 1
That so the world might be saved and go to heaven, he says, so that the world might be restored in a fashion that is healthy and whole set. And that's what happens through Jesus, because he comes in and restores it. Those who believe in him are not condemn, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the Son of God, which is the one that restores the world in such a way so that it's healthy.

00;56;07;15 - 00;56;29;13
Speaker 1
But if I refuse a healthy world, I've already condemned myself because I say that I don't like the world that's healthy. I want the one that's broken, right? That's right. And and that's a powerful statement that John makes. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Well, and the thing is, when it comes to Sozo, you know that word for. Yeah. Right.

00;56;29;13 - 00;56;55;05
Speaker 1
Putting putting everything back together is for the human being. And this is where salvation is characterized as a in, in our contemporary context as a, a moment in time, the sinner characterized by the, the sinner's prayer, a choice that one makes, a choice that one makes, you know, largely and largely, functioning in the evangelical world. This isn't really how it works in the Catholic or the Orthodox world.

00;56;55;08 - 00;57;28;07
Speaker 1
And and they and I and I, you know, I think they have a much better thought process in approaching that because the, the, the idea of sozo is not a one time transaction, but it's the human being takes a lifetime to be put back together. And that in in fact, when we reach whatever the, the quote unquote ever after looks like and it's like you're, you're finally going to go, this is what it's like to be put back together.

00;57;28;07 - 00;58;03;21
Speaker 1
And then and so the human, the human journey is a journey of being put back together. The Christian journey is one of being put back together by God. And it's not a moment in time. It's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong endeavor. one of the things I want to say just to, observation that I've had a number of times is when you think about the stages of brain development, the way that we get stuck and the way that we get healthy again and and the way people think when they've been impacted at those various stages.

00;58;03;24 - 00;58;36;03
Speaker 1
I've often wondered if you could track the overall, you know, if you were to kind of distill theological dispositions into maybe four categories, you could probably go, oh, yeah, well, that theologian developed that system because of that trauma and that in that part of the brain, I would think that that's very I, you know, I, I think theological systems in that sense are a reflection of man's attempt to understand a journey to God.

00;58;36;06 - 00;59;17;07
Speaker 1
And you can't so, like, you know, going Lutheran. Calvin. Yeah. Catholic whatever. Right. You're going all of them are man's attempt to characterize the journey through the lens of brokenness and a lack of integration. Right on some level. Right? Right. And some of them are better than others. But, you know, this this one of the things I've been thinking about lately is this whole concept of, having an experience of God that is so characterized, a large part, a large portion of Christianity is it's not I don't know that because we're so central to the story, like in our own lives.

00;59;17;07 - 00;59;44;29
Speaker 1
Right. Like, is there anybody else that's that's more central to my story? Yeah. That's how I see myself. I'm the center. Yeah, exactly. And and I mean, Existence is Fun is on a in a way, it's fundamentally narcissistic. Right. Right. On, on on some level, what you're saying is that, yeah, I have it's all about me. I can't see my I can't see I can't see my dad as the center of the story because I've never experienced that right.

00;59;45;01 - 01;00;09;14
Speaker 1
And so I live my life as if I'm the center of the story. And the what's amazing about the gospel is the gospel says, actually, you're not the center of the story. God's the center of the story, and this is his creation and this is his story. So we talk about experiencing God, but we should really be talking about God experiencing us, because that's what we're talking about when it comes to the human experience, is actually the human experiences that God experiences us.

01;00;09;16 - 01;00;30;18
Speaker 1
And he created people that would experience him. Right. And this is the story of the garden. This is a story of the gospel. This is the story of the bride. Like like Ephesians five, the the Great Marriage chapter. It says that Jesus gave himself to the bride. Yeah, cleansed and purified her and then presented and presented her back to him as a gift.

01;00;30;18 - 01;00;54;14
Speaker 1
It's all about him. Yeah, yeah. It's not about her cleansing and purifying herself. It's about he gave himself to her, cleansed and purified her in order to give her to him. Yeah, it's all about him. He's the story, right? Well, and it would sound and it can sound egotistical, but me, God wants everyone to experience him. I mean, what's so.

01;00;54;16 - 01;01;21;26
Speaker 1
Well, there is something great about that. Yeah, there is a creator that that made all of these things. And within the context, I know this is now we're getting into some more. We're within the context of a created order. Yeah. Of a of a whole of creation. And, and the people that are listening to us are, are engaged in trying to find their way through this created order to the one that that ordered it all.

01;01;22;24 - 01;01;51;11
Speaker 1
and that's that if we engage with the one that is that put the whole creative created order together than it is and and and phenomenal and experience for the human being, a part of creation to be able to engage with the very one that put us together. That's right. We sting when you're like you were saying a minute ago, if I'm the center of the story, I don't really care what else goes on.

01;01;51;14 - 01;02;10;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm more concerned about what happened, what I do and what I'm thinking about and how I engage with things. But if I stop for a second and realize I'm part of a created order and and as I look at that created or greater part and I'm given an invitation to engage with the one that put the order together.

01;02;10;16 - 01;02;34;22
Speaker 1
So yeah, ordered everything. So that it would be in, in a way that, worked for all of us. Yeah. Then I, I can be impressed with that and celebrate that in such a way that I'm now reflecting that celebration back to others, which is the very essence of what humanity is about. Yeah, that's holding, reflecting. Take up your cross and follow me.

01;02;34;23 - 01;03;01;09
Speaker 1
Right, right. This, that, that. The antidote for life as narcissism is taking up your cross on a daily basis and following him. Right. You're not the center of the story. He is. And all of those things flow better when we have a healthy way of of engaging with the world and recognizing that there's a process for for being healthy and whole and mature that can get waylaid.

01;03;01;12 - 01;03;19;07
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's right. And often does. And I guess that's what we're trying to say. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. In our roundabout way. But that's why we like podcasting things because we could talk through it and we can cut it out or we don't like. Yeah, that's right. If we don't like it. That's right. Yeah. So well I think with that dead, we'll call this episode to a close.

01;03;19;07 - 01;03;44;01
Speaker 1
All right. And, we will, continue in our next episode talking about the, the attunement center. who are my people and what are they like? And, how do we respond? So. So we're going to talk about teenagers. Yeah. Basically that's that is the attunement Center. Yep. That's right. And if you wonder what we're what we mean by that, join us next.

01;03;44;10 - 01;04;07;09
Speaker 1
yeah. Join us next time. That's right. So everybody, thank you so much for joining. And, tell everybody else about the podcast and, leave us a review on your whatever podcasting platform you're on, Apple, Google, Spotify, whatever it is. we have some good. But let's everybody else. No, we're wrong. So go for. So anyway, thanks, everybody.

01;04;07;09 - 01;04;11;14
Speaker 1
And until next time, God bless.

01;04;11;17 - 01;04;20;17
Speaker 1
You.

01;04;20;20 - 01;04;21;07
Speaker 2
You.