The LoCo Experience
The LoCo Experience is produced and sponsored by LoCo Think Tank - and sometimes others! Our mission is to uncover as much business education as possible while getting to know the founders and leaders of amazing organizations. You'll feel like you really know our guests after each episode, and if we're doing our job well, you'll learn business principles and tips from them along the journey and be both inspired and entertained. Episodes feature a range of local and regional business and community leaders as guests in a conversational interview format. The more interesting the journey, the better the experience!
The LoCo Experience
EXPERIENCE 178 | Body, Neurology, and Smart Business with Chantill Lopez, Author, Podcast Host, and Co-Founder of the Embodied Business Institute
A few weeks ago, longtime friend and local musician Max Mackey joined me in studio for a wonderfully authentic conversation (Episode 174), and afterward he mentioned that I really should have his girlfriend on my show because she’s so smart and experienced and I would just love her - and she was coming to visit in a couple weeks! And so I did - and I’m smarter for it, and glad to add another friend.
The entrepreneurial journey for Chantill Lopez seems to have started with a move to Hawaii, when she and her partner went there to be part of the crew on a start-up mushroom farm. With the farm caught up in red tape for over a year, Chantill worked odd jobs including a snack shack before re-finding her love for Pilates from high school, and soon after becoming a Pilates teacher.
A fateful statement from a friend that “you’ll never make any money teaching Pilates” preceded her own business launch, and she went on to prove them wrong, and with a partner built a highly successful group of studios in the Napa Valley region. She continued from there to build a teacher training business, and further studied both business practice and neuroscience - on top of her body-focused foundation - and with a Co-founder built The Embodied Business Institute to provide business training, coaching, and education focused on health businesses - yoga studios, physical therapists, gyms, pilates studios and more don’t need to be in it for the passion - they can also make money - and here’s how!
I learned so much in this conversation, and we laughed a lot and I asked a few dumb questions - but I came away very much understanding why my friend Max loves this woman - and you will too. So, please join me in getting to know a new friend, Chantill Lopez.
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Music By: A Brother's Fountain
A few weeks ago, long time friend and local musician Max Mackey joined me in studio for a wonderfully authentic conversation, episode 174, and afterwards he mentioned that I really should have his girlfriend on my show because she's so smart and experienced and I would just love her, and she was coming to visit in a couple weeks, and so I did, and I'm smarter for it and glad to add another friend. The entrepreneurial journey for Chantel Lopez seems to have started with a move to Hawaii, when she and her partner went there to be part of a crew on a startup mushroom farm. With the farm caught up in red tape for over a year, Chantel worked odd jobs including a snack shack before refinding her love for Pilates from high school and soon after becoming a Pilates teacher. A fateful statement from a friend that you'll never make any money teaching Pilates preceded her own business launch, and she went on to prove them wrong, and with a partner built a highly successful group of studios in the Napa Valley region. She continued from there to build a teacher training business. And further studied both business practice and neuroscience on top of her body focused foundation and with a co founder built the Embodied Business Institute to provide business training, coaching, and education focused on health businesses. Yoga studios, physical therapists, gyms, Pilata studios, and more don't need to be just in it for the passion. They can also make money. And here's how. I learned so much in this conversation, and we laughed a lot, and I asked a few dumb questions, but I came away very much understanding why my friend Max loves this woman so much, and you will too. So please join me in getting to know a new friend, Chantal Lopez. welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guest today is Chantel Lopez and Chantel is the co founder of the Embodied Business Institute. Uh, she's also a podcaster and author of Mom and More. Let's just start with, welcome Chantel. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Um, so you were referred by my friend Max. I know. Who was just on a couple few weeks ago. I know. And during the show he said, you know, you should really, I think it was during the show, did he say it actually live and on air, or was it just afterwards? Uh, he talked about me a little bit, I think, during the podcast, but I don't think. He didn't say that at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It must have been right after. He was like, dude, you should totally have my girlfriend on. So I'm glad you're out. You're out from where? California. Sacramento. Okay. Yeah. Um, I guess just set the stage. What, what does the Embodied Business Institute do? I understand you've had a lot of chapters, uh, yeah, a lot of chapters building all this stuff together. Yeah. It's a question I typically. Um, dread and love at the same time. Um, I was thinking about it a lot in the last few days, and today I realize, like, My entire career, I've been an entrepreneur for 25 years of not worked for anybody else, which has been really awesome. And I feel like if, when I'm looking back at it, it really, it's like, what passion or interesting thing could I do? Or what urge could I follow that I could make money doing? Okay. It's been like, it kind of wraps it up, but there has, there has been a A very natural, organic progression. But there's been quite a bit of progression. So right now the Embodied Business Institute, I have a co founder, Anne Bishop, who is a brilliant, uh, woman and a brilliant partner. Um, have you been obviously together from the start? Was started one your idea more than the other? Well, we started, we started working together back in 2011. Okay. We met each other in like 2002, and then we made a real go of the business in 2016. Oh, wow. So, um, yeah, we've known each other for a long time and we've had kind of parallel paths, but in 2016 we jumped in, uh, with a project. And then we slowly developed it over time. And then when COVID hit, we went all in 100%. So it was a side hustle for both of you. It was a side hustle, because that's exactly the way we describe it. A passion project is the way some people say it. Totally. Um, and so Fast forward right now, the way I talk about it is we essentially work in three different realms. We work in education, we work in business, and we work in behavior change, which is the thing that's kind of most elusive to people. Um, the foundation of all of these, uh, areas of work is really neuroscience and, and nervous system science. So I think backing up is probably super helpful. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. Um, I have a degree in journalism, creative writing. So I did that, you know, for about two years before I thought it was probably going to kill me. Okay. Um, I worked for, uh, tiny newspapers, weeklies, three of them. Um, and I. I just, it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Right. Uh. Well, and it was, that was even before the real decline of the newspapers. Yeah, but it was like, it was already a pair. It was happening. Yeah. Gotcha. Um, and it was intense. I mean, I was working with great people, but old newspaper people, like real old school newspaper people. Right. And there was an interesting gender dynamic and age dynamic. Like I was, I think 20 when I started. Yeah, just a little, you know, like, uh, you know, maybe not quite so good natured jabbing at like, well, you have, you know, nothing, you know, you're 20, you have no experience. And, you know, when you're surrounded by all these old white guys who've been in the journalism business for a long time, it's an interesting place. And probably the young white guys got picked on a lot too, but maybe not as much. There were no young white guys. Oh, really? No, they were, they were all. Everybody, probably, in the newspaper staff was 50 plus, so it was by far the youngest. And there was one other woman, her name was Patty, I remember, she was, gosh, she must have been in her 40s, uh, and she was great, but that, that was just like her and I. Yeah, yeah. And so that was just an interesting place. Um, but I did that for a while and then I, we, my, my ex husband and I, we weren't married at the time, but we moved to Hawaii to help some friends start a business. Okay. And, uh, that business. Yeah. Organic mushroom farm on the big island of Hawaii. Okay. Um, we were, uh, And I still am, like, a total yes person. It was just like, I was, I had been working 70 hours a week as a journalist. I had been doing, uh, page layout. I was taking photographs. I was writing. I was getting paid beans. Yeah, I was working 70 hours a week. And, and really, I was only getting paid for 40. Right. And the whole deal was, well, whatever hours you work over, you'll get eventually in, in vacation time. Which is just a total fucking rip off. I mean, it just never transpired, obviously. So, um, yeah, that was just a really You're like, oh, you have something else for me to go and do? I'm into it. Yeah, so How do you grow mushrooms? Right. We were just like, whatever, let's, let's do anything else. So we moved to the Big Island and, uh, floundered in the farm. In Hawaii, everything moves by hand. It's so slow, so slow, it's like ridiculous. So we were there for a year and the farm never broke ground. Oh, wow. Um, and we ended up working in random jobs and, um, I had always been an athlete and I was a dancer in high school, so I basically did everything. I mean, I played softball, volleyball, I ran track, I played, uh, you know, everything and I was a dancer. I was just like, I had to like, I gotta, I gotta rest a little bit. So I started, um, in college I was dancing and I had taken a Pilates class. I don't know if you know much about Pilates. Not really. Yeah. It's a, it's like my neighbor doing it. Yeah. I mean, whatever. It's, it's fantastic and not worth probably explaining, but, um, I, I was just like, I want to kind of like semi aerobic yoga. Well, it's like fun. It's more based in functional movement and, and posture and alignment. So really it's like Tai Chi or something like that. Yeah. A little bit more pace to it. Think about like. There are many versions of it, um, but the whole point of Pilates is to really like build a very versatile, very, I don't want to say flexible because I don't necessarily mean like flexible. But a high functioning body. Do exercises that have reach in them because you have to reach for stuff a lot. Yeah, squatting and Things to get up from the ground, whatever. And Joseph Pilates actually, yeah, Joseph Pilates was, was Fucking genius and he had like 650 patents. He was a German man. He came over During the war. He was he came over his brother was in New York as a manufacturer and he was a really cool, dude Yeah And he studied martial arts and he had studied yoga and he had studied all of these things and he kind of grew up created his own system and it it really became popular during the era of modern dance because he was in a Building in New York with Martha Graham. I don't know if you know who that is. She's like the madam of modern. Okay, so So all of the dancers were would be injured and they would go to Joseph and his wife Clara and do this You funny thing that they were doing. Yeah, yeah. This system he had created. So, it is quite, um, Well, and preventative too, I assume. Preventative, but also, Rehab, rehabilitative, Totally. but also preventative. Yeah. Interesting. You know, I've, you know, interestingly, Pilates is one of those topics, like, I've done yoga and stuff. I got a sense of that. I've done some other stuff, but I just, It is a gap in my knowledge, so thanks for filling it in a little bit. Yeah, it's quite beautiful, actually, and, and powerful, like it builds strength and flexibility, but the real heart of it is like this balance. I think this is why I was attracted to it. I was not only already an athlete and very physical, so being in my body was very familiar and felt kind of like a, a really important thing. So, and then as a dancer, I was willing to do anything that. improved my ability, um, to perform, but it is. It really is this beautiful kind of, um, the goal is like to bring the mind and the body together. So there's harmony. So you're not like fighting against your body, but the body is strong and vital and functional and can do all of the things, you know, breathe. Some of those thematic things around yoga, but also maybe a higher emphasis on daily functionality and especially with sport and things. Yeah. And just a different perspective. I mean, he was a German guy, he came from like, he was taking stuff from like German calisthenics, you know, and circus performers. And he definitely took from yoga, but he was also a pugilist. So he was a boxer. Like, it's a really interesting body of work. So I had done that in college. And when we moved to Hawaii. Uh, it was a little bit of a shit show. It was just like not You're waiting for this job to come together that never materialized. Right, but you gotta work. Right. If you wanna eat. Yeah. So I ended up, uh, we joke because I ended up working at like a glorified snack shack. It was like a little, little, little Like, we're literally just a Snack Shack place like attached to an art gallery, like flinging ahi burgers and, and chili out of a can. It was so weird. It was so strange, but that was just what there was. And then I ended up getting a job in human resources at one of the observatories called Gemini. Okay. And that was not my like, I mean, I don't give a fuck about this, but I, it was, it was like, well, I'm waiting, right? We're just waiting. So while we were waiting and having a blast, I mean, it was a blast. I mean, the Big Island is pretty spectacular. We were doing, but my wife and I went to, Kauai and Maui for our 20th last year. It's really, it's really great. They've got something like 13 out of the known 15 ecosystems on that island. So you just get such a huge variety. Um, but while we were kind of waiting, I started taking Pilates classes again. And I was like, you know, I think I was just also super fatigued from my time in journalism, even though it was only two years and I was like, I don't really want to do anything petty. And so, um, I decided I would become a Pilates teacher. I was like, well, why the fuck not? There's nothing else to do really. And so I started that process. I was also performing. So I was still dancing and performing with the company on the big island. So it was all this cool stuff. Like, is this on like a pirate boat thing or something? Like, what are we talking about here? There was actually a, a dance collective on the big island. Um, And I think I was just like, just restore my body, you know, like rest my mind and, and give me something to like land in that didn't feel so fucking terrible. I mean, really, I learned a lot. And I'll tell people like I learned more in two years as a journalist than I did in every single day of my life. School right from, from Kay to the end, just right into the hot plate right from the start. Oh my God. Seriously. So I do appreciate that a lot because I do love writing and I do a lot of writing now. Um, so yeah, I just, we ended up leaving the Big Island because it must been partner never came together and Well, it did Okay, but it hadn't, right. So, uh, so we left and I got formally trained as a Pilates teacher. Um, and I opened a studio, and then I was like, oh, this. Workin for myself. Businesses real good. So I opened a studio and then I opened another studio. When you got back to. When we were back on the mainland. And, and did you go back to where you were from in some capacity or whatever, or where did you simply decide to land? Um, yeah, not really. We, we went to Sonoma County. So wine country. Yeah, yeah. Um, when I graduated high school, my whole family, my mom and my siblings, they moved to Sonoma County. So I was kind of uprooted. I didn't really have a, like I grew up in the Central Valley. Yeah, yeah. Um, so like, um, south of Sacramento is where I grew up. Um, hot. It's where they grow all the vegetables. Hot as fuck. Yeah. Right. Um, so, no, we didn't go back there. I was not going back there. So, my mom. I'm from North Dakota. Yeah. And that was kind of like after college. It was not really like, my wife would be like, if I was like, honey, we're moving to North Dakota. She'd be like, yeah. You're moving to North Dakota, huh? Yeah, great. Have fun. Yeah, so we moved to Sonoma County, which is great. Um, and I, that's where I finished my training and then I built two businesses. Wow. And, uh, Did you have capital? Was your now husband able to chip in? I mean, it seems like you should have been pretty broke by the time you left Hawaii. Yeah. Did you get a loan from a bank? No, actually what I did was I started really small. So I started renting a space. Nice. from somebody and, um, saved some money and then I rented a, another space, a little bigger space. And I got, I had just a lot of support. I mean, I've just always had a lot of support in my life. So, um, I had two people who basically did like a friends and family loan to help me buy equipment because Pilates is quite expensive. It's all this big, fancy custom made equipment. Yeah. I thought it was body movements mostly. Well, there is mat work. So just floor work like yoga, but then So Joseph Pilates, all these inventions, he, there are, that's the 650 patents. Yeah. So there are these like five or six key, big pieces of equipment. And so I needed to. buy those things. And I had two very generous people in my life who were like, we'll buy them and you pay us. And it was no interest. And so I did that. It was a year. Um, and I was just making money hand over fist. I was like, this is fucking great. It basically is a function of if you have pretty full classes, you got one instructor that's you in the beginning and then you hire other instructors and yeah, you're getting a bunch of money. Yeah, it was just great. It was a tiny space. And I actually shared it with one other teacher and, um, But I just I just, my classes were full. That's just as easy. I was doing, yeah, I was doing lots of private, lots of private sessions and private sessions are quite expensive, so I had zero, I mean, my overhead That's wild was probably$500 a month. And you're literally like two years into this craft. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was probably like 25. Yeah. Yeah, 25. Was it leading edge at the time, or was Pilates already kind of known? Yeah, it, no, you just did it good. It was a little tough. It was a little tough because. Uh, I started training in 99 and then by the time I had my second studio, you know, it was still like people, you had to really educate people as to what it was, but we also lived in a community that was very active and kind of like, and had a lot of discretionary income and stuff too. Which was super helpful. Right. So that was great. And I think that was just like, why would I ever, ever, ever work for anybody else? I'm also just like, pretty contrary person, so I don't like to be told what to do. Yeah. Um. I'd like to say I'm helpful, like if you ask me, I'll probably help. Yeah. I'll probably do it. If you tell me what to do, then I'm probably going to do it. Tell you where to go. Yeah, totally. It doesn't work that way for me. I'm not always so helpful But yes, I am helpful, but yes, so that was like that was just great I think I got a taste for it and I was making a lot of money and it provided us a lot of Freedom so we could travel a lot and then we had a baby and I just brought I just brought him to work Oh, I mean, I just would bring him to work with me and he would be hanging out in the studio and is whatever, you know, um, so that, that was like the start of it. And then I, I was ready to grow. And then I, I was looking at a space downstairs and I was like, well, this is too big for me. I can't really accommodate that. I can't justify that, you know, the cost and yeah. So I basically like put out a note to some people and I was like, anybody interested in. You know, expanding and building a business and having a partner. And one woman that I had met one time from down the street was like, fuck yeah, I'll do it with you. I was like, great, let's do it. We just jumped in. We did not even know each other. Like from down the street, like in the neighborhood. Like literally down the street. I had taken a class with her when I was pregnant and I like, liked her okay. I mean, first impressions, you know, I was like, eh, it's okay. Pilates is not really my style. You know, I'm pretty picky and, uh, you know, obviously pretty opinionated. Um, but she said yes. And I was like, well, I love that. Like, let's do that. And so we did that for, I think, seven years together. Oh, wow. And it wasn't just a space share. You like partnered up. Oh yeah. We figured out how to split the monies and all that. And it was. Quite the learning. There was so much good about it. I mean, so much good about it. I evolved in incredible ways during that period. So, um, the business partnership was really rough and eventually pretty toxic. Um, but. I, we, we had huge, we had two, we ended up with two spaces. We rented the space next door. We had a retail section at our highest peak. We had 12 teachers working for us. We were offering teacher trainings. I was creating my own teacher trainings. At that point I had become, uh, I had kind of specialized in functional anatomy. And so I was teaching anatomy workshops, um, and I was, I had developed a mentoring program for teachers, both for yoga teachers and Pilates teachers. So the yoga and Pilates gig is like, you go through training. Some are good. Some are not so good. The trainers or trainings. Like, they're, you know, some of them are quite short. Some of them are quite extensive. What I began to notice is people were coming out of the trainings with no sense of how to run a business, no sense of how to build a business, no sense of like how to build a business with integrity, how to market themselves, how to scale, how to plan. Right. And so I was like, there's a huge missing gap here. And I, I now have like, totally, I have some experience, my, my wife, uh, in her. She's a dean of faculty and they have a massage program. Yeah. It's one of the most affordable massage, uh, certification programs in the hands on. Yeah. And a lot of them want to be self employed and stuff, but there's, here's your massage skills. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, and people who I think gravitate toward, uh, professions like this are very much like helpers. They want to, you know, they like, They have this desire to help people. Verbalists, uh, acupuncturists, uh. Yeah, but they don't give a fuck about it. They don't care. They don't know. They're terrible at it. All these things, so. We've had a number of, um, medical profession folks in our local think tank chapter. Yeah. Cause they're really great at their medical profession stuff and they're super valuable. Like their knowledge of whether it's sometimes psychology or mental health or, or actual health, you know, with acupuncture things, like it's great to have them in there and they can actually. Pick up a lot of good practical business type skills from people that are more business focused, not craft focused. Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So I just saw a gap and I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm doing pretty good. Like, I think I'm, I could support people. And I really, I think for me, I just. I've always had a desire to help people, like, live better, like, live more fully. I'm like, if you're going to do this thing, like, why don't, why wouldn't you want to like, really know how to do it well, like, make some money? Yeah. You know, I had a mentor who told me, she said, you'll never make money teaching Pilates. And I was like, fuck you. I mean, I don't think I said that to her face, but inside, I was like, I'll show you. It just can't be true. Right. You know? I think I just had this desire to like, I'm going to support people. Well, and it's psychological too. Yeah. Because especially in that health profession, what I call profit guilt is abundant. Oh, totally. 100%. Like, if somebody would start making 10, 000 a month teaching Pilates classes, they're like, Oh my God, I must be charging my customers too much. Too much. 100%. Well, no, it just means you're helping a lot of people at results. Yeah. Shut up. Yeah. And, and the truth is. Like Pilates teachers, this is the thing that I think, you know, always was a little bit of a grinding spot for me is like, we are more educated on the body and functionally how the body moves than most medical professionals. Yeah. I mean, and I have, every time I have gone to see a doctor, it's like, well, how does, how does everything work? It's like, I know how it moves. I know all the systems. I know how the systems work together. Like, so anytime I have had an injury, like I went, I was in a car accident, somebody hit me in 2020 and I had a knee injury and I went to see a doctor. A general practitioner. She wasn't my doctor, but it was like whoever was available. And I, I go in there and I'm like, here's what I think is happening. And I'm using anatomical language because I've had 10, 000 hours of, you know, training and teaching other people and And she just was like, what do you do again? She was so demeaning and so, I mean, I just, What makes you think you can tell me how to do my job? Yeah, it was just, it was, I was, I was like, okay. So tell me about functional anatomy. Like you were saying that was kind of your specialty. Yeah. What's, what's that mean? Like, I think about anatomy, it's just like naming all the bones and muscles and stuff. Right. Well, it's essentially like, how does it all work? Okay. Because this, you're, you're like human system is so complex. When I say arm bend, it bends. Yeah. Right. Except for, your arm bends and there is something else that's helping or happening to make the arm bend. Like, you bend your elbow. Something's happening at your shoulder, and something's happening at your shoulder blade, which means something's happening at your rib cage, which means something's happening at your thoracic spine. So there is, particularly when we're talking about like walking, basic movement, so functional movement. So you take a step and the way your foot hits the ground, the way the bones of your foot and your toes and your ankle and your tibia and your fibula and your knee, like how those move and work together is important. It's a complex system, the bones have rhythms, they don't just move linearly, they move in multi dimensions and each joint has a very complex pattern of movement. And then that pattern of movement, so if it's an optimal pattern of movement, when you're you know, like a little person, you, you start de optimizing it by whoever you learn to walk from. So let's just say you were raised by your mom and dad, and so you learn to walk by watching them. So whatever patterns they have, you immediately take on. So, and their patterns are based on Injury, illness, you know, like, I'm told I have an unusual gait, kind of, like people can recognize me across the street, even if they can't see my face, because I walk kind of funny. Yeah. You probably learned it from my dad. Or whomever. Right. Yeah. And then, and then your gait is impacted by, did you ever sprain an ankle? I heard you, I think I was listening to the show. Yeah, knee injury. Yeah. Yeah. So. So. So. Your gait is changed by that. It's like, I learned in my physical therapy, trying to rehab my knee. My, my physical therapist is a pretty sharp young man and he videoed me running on a treadmill and that and another couple of other things. He identified that my left arch is far less. strong than my right arch. And so even though I had a bad bum right knee, my balance was still stronger on my right because my left foot doesn't have the right kind of foundation. Yeah. It's so it's all of that functional anatomy is like looking at how the body works and understanding that there are so many systems at play. There's also the history at play. There's the learned behavior that's at play. Um, so it's this just super dynamic concept. So when you go to try to improve somebody's movement patterns, you've got to understand that even like, even the way your viscera is sitting, like your gut, like literally if you're having like gastrointestinal, don't do that. Gastrointestinal issues are going to impact the way you hold your self, your spine, and that's going to impact the way you walk. And if that, if you have GI issues for a long time, you're going to, you know, like there's just all of these implications. Right. And we're just talking about basic. You were, when you get into like, I'm a dancer and I used to be able to do this move and it's on the edge of my capacity and then I've lost that edge and I need to get it back. Yeah. I mean, I worked with cyclists. I worked with, uh, ice skaters. I worked with runners, like, you know, triathletes, like all kinds of folks. I also worked with people who were not athletes, you know, um, Yeah. So that, that's it. Like, you know, we could talk about that for six hours or more, but, um, yeah, totally. Let's not do that. Um, yeah. So you asked me what that meant, I think. Yeah. Yeah. The functional medicine. So, um, so to get back to maybe your business journey, you had, uh, this book. partner, some friction, successful business, which usually friction comes from, uh, not making any money. Yeah. We did. We did. We did really well for a long time. And then at the end we were not doing well. And, um, It, it, it ended. What do you think, what, what, what caused the decline? Like, was it competition entering the marketplace and doing a better job? Was it, it wasn't new anymore? I don't think so. I think it was more toxic environment. Nobody wanted to. No, we had a group. We had so many people. Okay. Yeah. I mean, business was really booming. I think ultimately it was that we just had different ways of, of running the business. Like I wanted to stick to like the very practical. Like, this sounds super silly, right? Like, how would you not want to just like, you can only spend what you make. Like you gotta, you know, and, and she unfortunately was kind of this magical thinking kind of person. I mean, I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to like talk down about her because we, we still have a friendship and we've kind of recovered, which has been sweet and wonderful. But, um, Yeah, we just had different ideas, you know, she, she wanted a lot. She had like, yeah, she was a big dreamer She was like, yeah wanted to buy more equipment. She thought she was like, oh this will work because this I was like It's not gonna fucking work like and we can't We can't afford it actually. Like we've got to, so we had very, just like divergent ideas. And, um, so I extricated myself from the business and I actually stayed and worked in the business, uh, as an independent contractor for a year. Um, I, and I. I basically like gave the business to her, uh, which was a bummer. But, um, I had at that point, that was 2013. I had already written a book. I wrote a book about teaching called moving beyond technique. Okay. Um, which was kind of based on my mentorship process. Um, you know, theory, um, and the mentorship program I had developed was a 12 month program. So teachers would go out of their training and then they would go into a 12 month mentorship where we would talk about business strategy and planning. And um, like we were also developing, uh, like more high end skills for like, how do I optimize the teacher student relationship? So I had been doing a lot of study around like humanistic psychology and motivational science. And so I was bringing that into the work and, and that was kind of like the thing that kept pulling me along. So you're really drifting over to the mind now instead of the body. Well, I was like, there's more to the body because there's a thing for Pilates teachers. And I don't know if it happens for yoga teachers, but, um, where they will say, uh, I teach the body in front of me. I'm like, well, that's great. You know, like meaning they're attentive and it's individual attention and they're watching and they're, you know, it's highly customized to the person in front of them, which is all fine. We don't want to take that away. But my sense always was like, There is not just a body in front of you, right? There is there is a history in front, right? There is a spiritual. It's a human being and doing. Yeah, the bio Psychosocial spiritual like there is more to this and I was never even though I was very body oriented Um, I was just like this is kind of bullshit Like I'm not just teaching the body in front of me and and it's not that interesting Honestly, like I don't Which is why I don't teach Pilates anymore, because, uh, like, eh, this is not, it's not, it's not enough, like, there's more here, like, the brain is doing something, the nervous system is doing something, like, there's all of these components that we're ignoring, so, uh, that's, when I sold the studio, or when I left the studio in 2013, that's when I had, I really started kind of down that path. Yeah, yeah. Well, it felt like, you know, You were starting to describe Pilates as a little bit of a mind body connection earlier. I was thinking about comparing it to like martial arts and things like that, or the Tai Chi, but it's less of that than I mean, I wish it were more of that. People pay a lot of lip service to like body mind spirit is the whole thing. I'm like, that is also bullshit because people, people like don't talk about spirituality. Don't talk about like anything that's not physical. It, cause it just, Pilates got this like very strong, it's like a fad, you know, awareness. It's what Madonna did. I mean, seriously, that's when it kicked off, like in the nineties, Madonna was doing it. So all of a sudden it was like the coolest, you know, fitness thing. It was like a fitness. Yeah. So yeah, no, a lot of lip service to that, but not a lot of like richness in the actual now. No, There are the groups of people and teachers and organizations that lean in that direction a little bit more Yeah, but it's like five percent. Okay, so yeah, so I I had written a book about teaching and I was, I was, I think I had been writing a lot as a business owner. And you know, I was writing marketing. I was writing emails. I was like, oh, maybe I'm not done. More production writing, not book writing. Yeah. But I had been writing. Right. And I really, when I left the newspapers, Uh, my, my, um, publisher said, he gave me a card and he said, all orbits come full circle. And it was another like, fuck off moment. I never doing this again. I'm never doing it again. Like, if I never write another word, I would probably be fine, which ended up not being true. Then the book started coming together. Well, then I was like, Oh, if I write for myself, if I'm writing to share, you know, education, because I had really started to identify as an educator, I loved educating people, not just teaching people. but educating them about their bodies. Um, so I had written the book and I left the studio and I had started already, uh, uh, educational company called skillful teaching, which I think Max mentioned. Yes. And so it was the book. And then the mentorship I took online. And so I was working with people from all over the world and, um, facilitating lots of cool education, you know, both anatomy education, but also, uh, business education and still with some emphasis on those other Pilates folks. Yeah. It was still drawing from, but, but the audience was growing. So it was like not just Pilates, but it was yoga. It was massage therapists. It was people who were in health and wellness and nutritionists. And all kinds. I was like, this is really cool Right. You know, and I had, I had been really fatigued with teaching Pilates. Yeah. Um, and so I started a podcast with a colleague called The Thinking Pilates Podcast, and that ran for six years. Okay. And I was like, oh my God. I just kept like following that whatever the tug was, you know, it's like, I love writing. I'm writing a book. I loved that process. I loved it. I was like, I'm fucking in heaven. I love it. Like I want to do more of this. And then I started the podcast and I was like, this is also really great. And is this, uh, circa like 2014 or something like that? Um, I think the podcast started probably in 20, Fifteen, yeah, 2015. So this is approaching your reunite. Reunition with Anne. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was doing the podcast and Anne actually approached me because she decided to go to Harvard. She, she started a Pilates studio when she was 23. Okay. And she's just a super smart gal and real curious and for her the draw was like, it's not just the body, it's the brain. What's happening in the brain? And so she found a program at Harvard that's no longer there, unfortunately, which is a master's program in brain mind education. Okay. And, um, she took it and she built a, a company called Brain Body Connect. And it was, uh, continuing education for people in the, Movement and healing arts. Okay. So anybody who was working with the body Yeah, who wanted to know like what's actually happening up here? Yeah before we see it in the but it counted as a continuing education kind of a thing Yeah, that's who she was and she was working with a lot of physical therapists and I said started, you know Pulling in physical therapists. So she was but I had started my business and left my studio before that and she was like Oh, well, you're gonna give me a little what's up here. You know, I don't how do I do this? Oh, I see. So, so we had a couple of, uh, chats. And, um, we ended up sharing a small office in Sebastopol, which is where I lived at the time in Sonoma County. And we were like, just totally geeking out with each other is so great. It was so great. We both just, you know, We love to be educated. We love to be informed. We love science. We love research. We were like, let's bring some meat to this like thing that, you know, people don't necessarily think that highly of and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So, um, yeah. And then we started a project together. Um, so I was running my mentorship program and, uh, doing the podcast. Did you make any money on the podcast? No. Yeah. I never did. Yeah. I just, it was like, I also was having a baby. You know, I was raising my son and, excuse me, there was just a lot going on. Yeah. You know, it was like, yeah. We got a lot of traction. Yeah, you got a lot of clients from it. We did. And it's, you know, it's so interesting. I still have people say, Is that your podcast? Thinking Pilates podcast? I was like, yes, people still talk about the book. Still people are coming. Yeah, 20 or 10 years later after the book virtually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 11 years. So Yeah, it's very cool. Um, and we really just did it because we had a desire to expand the conversation beyond like the, in Pilates, it's just so strange sometimes it's like, who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong and who's better than who it's like, Oh God. And what did you talk about? Was this like a weekly show? Was it? We, we recorded kind of inconsistently, but we probably did three to four shows a week. Okay. Yeah. And we talked about, really, we talked about like human connection, you know, like how do we, how do we take this thing that we know how to do and how do we help people improve not just their bodies, but their lives, you know, because when you start to improve your body, you know, you're breathing better, you're moving better, like your mood changes, your nervous system gets settled, you communicate better, right? Like, there's Yeah. So many positive ripple effects. If you're kind of chill in some ways and have a healthy body, it's just a lot easier to be a nice person. Yeah. And we wanted to really like, we wanted to open up the dialogue around what it meant to be a teacher and like, what is the responsibility and how do you, how do you get better at it? Because there's so many shitty teachers, you know, that it's like, it's not just about the subject matter. Right. And if it's just about the subject matter, you're fucking failing. And so, it was like that kind of Right. Well, and that's It kind of harkens back to your early kind of business pursuits of trying to turn these Pilates people and other health practitioners into proper business people because like too many of them, their, their finances are a train wreck and so they can't really show up and teach the best class, give the best massage. Really be in a right place of mind to be a leader a teacher a hundred percent. Yeah So we had really rich conversations and we were that was about the time. I got exposed to something very fancy called the polyvagal theory and It was developed in 1994 by a neuroscience and researcher named. Dr. Steven Porges. Okay, and It's It's basically like the idea that your nervous system is way more complex than we have ever thought, and it has a direct impact on your behavior, and particularly the way you socially engage and interact. And I, it was like a drop in the hat. I was at a continuing education seminar, and This woman said something in passing about, um, vocalization, like making sound or laughing or singing or something and its impact on the vagus nerve. Well, your vagus nerve is like your primary conduit for your parasympathetic nervous system. Um, and I was like, Oh, I, I really want to know more about that. Like, that seems like what I've been looking for. You know. This, I was like, if we can open up the main pipe, yeah, it just, it's somehow ties everything together. Yeah. And so it is about that time that I started to study the polyvagal theory and I sought out Dr. Porgeson um, and a woman named Evdaina who had studied with him and was producing lots of material and, and education around it. So, um, Yeah, my just my business and my life kept, you know, I just kept like following the thing. Yeah. Yeah, and and were you like Making a sustainable income in all these seasons or like I was always I mean I I was the primary breadwinner for my family for a very, very long time. Interesting. What's your husband doing along this way, by the way, because you mentioned you had a second child near that time. Yeah, so we had our son in 2005. He's 18, I think that's the right math, 2005, um, and then we had our daughter, Sydney, in 2013. Okay. Right? She's going to be 11. Yeah. I can never quite remember. Um. Yeah, so we were raising kids. I had, you know, I had had my own business all these years. He was kind of on and off again at this time. He was, he had his own business. He was like a, he was doing website development. Okay. Um, and it did really well for a little bit and then just did not do well. He is a lovely human. We are no longer married, obviously. And, um, it'd be weird if you had a boyfriend in Fort Collins and you were still married. Just making sure we know we, we, we were, we were following the story. That's good. That's good. Um, in case you haven't listened to the other podcast, um. Yeah, so he just wasn't quite, he wasn't cut out for running his own business, unfortunately. So it was really up and down. So if I wasn't like the main financial contributor, I was definitely pulling my weight. Yeah, yeah. Um, there were, I mean, I won't lie. I mean, there were times where it was I mean, book writing is usually not very popular. Yeah. I mean, I never made any money. It was really the teaching. It was the teaching. Yeah. The teaching and the mentoring. And sure. Cause I was doing lots of private mentorship. So that's lucrative. Yeah. And then I was doing big group mentorship and that was lucrative. And then as we kind of went toward 2017, 18, 19 before COVID, I was traveling internationally teaching. Oh wow. And that was very lucrative. And are you like, Um, talking from stages and stuff like that at conferences or more, more of the specific teaching? Some of that. Yeah, some of that, but mostly like going into, uh, like boutique studios and teaching workshops like weekend workshops and then, you know, getting a huge cut for that. You know, people pay you, they, they fly you out, they host you, they pay you. I mean, you set the terms. That's the reason I love being a business owner. Yeah, yeah. And then you would just stick around and you would. Train people privately for a lot of money. And so, Oh, wow. Almost like a celebrity guest trainer. 100%. So that was great. And so I could lean on the book and I can lean on the podcast and I was developing my education. I mean, and that's just the truth. I mean, I was like at the top, I mean, I had gone as far as I was going to go and I was leveraging it for everything I could. Um, Which is great. Yeah, know, it was, it was great. But then I just was like, I don't, I really, really just don't want to, I want to like keep expanding. Right. So I was learning more and more about the polyvagal theory and the nervous system and its impact on behavior and behavior change. And um, that was like, you know, and Anne and I. Hmm. And that's like, Yeah. Here's the thing that could unlock doors for so many people. People just pissed. Stuck. So many people. Every human being it really In every domain. Yeah. I mean,'cause it applies to. And are you still a big, big proponent of the Polyvagal Theory? That's the drive. This is what I do. This is what this is like. You're an evangelist about the Yeah, wait for it. Wait for it. We're getting there. Okay. We're gonna have a moment. I'm finally, finally I'm a Polyvagal Theory advocate. Yes. Is what my business does. Well, that's interesting. I've never thought of it that way, but it's true. We say Polyvagal Informed, um, so that, you know, Anne and I are doing this thing. We were, we had. created something called the master's program. It was the science and psychology of teaching master's program. That was our side hustle. And it was a five month program and we brought together, um, her, her expertise in curriculum design that she learned at Harvard, and, um, our huge body of knowledge and experience as, as teachers of the body and of teachers and educators. And she had been kind of following the same path and was at the top and had been presenting research at conferences all over the world. And, um, so we had this little thing called the master's program and it was really like motivational science, humanistic psychology, brain science. I were bringing it all together to teach teachers how to Create better education in their studios. And, you know, we taught a lot of, Just stuff that people will receive better. Like their members, their students, their people that attend their classes. Well, most of the people who were coming to us at that time were teachers of teachers. Oh, right. So we're now like teachers of teachers who are teaching teachers. Right. Which is rad. It's like, it's a great place. Very dynamic. Very fun place to be. Did it come with, like, pressure? Or discomfort? No. Because you kind of knew you were at the top of the field in some ways, I suppose. I've never really been the kind of person that's struggled with, like, imposter syndrome or anything. I think, I'm like, I'm just like more of a big vision, like big picture, like, Oh, this thing sounds like I get impassioned and I'm like, I'm going to fucking do this thing. So it might as well be me. No one knows more about this shit than I do. Well, and even if they do, they're not doing anything with it. They're just going to sit there and hide it under a basket. I don't want it. Because the truth is right. You don't always have to be the smartest person in the room. You just have to be smart enough and be willing to do the thing. And my experiences. Lots of people are not willing to do the thing. That's fair. Yeah. So it's a real truth. It is. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. So I never really felt like, I felt like I had a lot of insight. I had a lot of education. I had a lot of experience. I didn't have all the answers. Yeah. But I've also been very comfortable always with saying, I don't know. And I would joke when I would teach, you know, to these big groups of people, I would say, I know more today than I did yesterday and less today than I'll know tomorrow. I was like, so, you know, you just got to take me at face value. And it's like, if you don't, if you don't believe me, or you're having a hard time getting on board, good for you. Go, go, go, go. Prove me right. Prove me wrong. If I don't have an answer, I'll try to get an answer for you. Let's learn together. Like, I'm not afraid of being wrong. Yeah. I mean, I don't love it, but so, um, did you guys do this kind of project together for a while and then kind of formalize the partnership on it? Yeah, we did it from 2016 to 2019. Um, and it was a five month program people would do online. So. I started creating online education back in like 2014, 2015 when I wrote the book and started the podcast and, um, So I was already creating education and putting it online, which was really before the market got saturated. You know, by 2019, 2020, people were like, Oh, another online course. Um, but you had a ton of content and a program. We had a ton of content and Anne, actually it was one of her specialties was online curriculum design. This is something that she had learned at Harvard and it was all neuroscience based. Like how does the brain learn? How do we optimize learning, particularly in the online space. So when COVID hit, We fuckin skyrocketed. Blew up. And we, literally, we, we were running a program. We had launched a program. You're like, I think something's wrong. The online subscription thing, billing thing is gonna send us 120, 000 from yesterday's sales. I mean, it was crazy. Or whatever. It was, it was crazy. Um, and so exciting. I mean, because we, we're just hustlers, you know, we're just like following our hearts and we're super driven and, you know, we weren't like making tons of money off this side hustle. But, um, I was like, I'm willing to go all in. And so I mean, literally COVID hit and we were like, let's pivot quick. We spent all of our money. We invested in a coaching program and we redesigned our whole program and put it out there and we made almost a hundred thousand dollars on the first launch. Wow. And this was, it was simply because we had a very specific skill set and everybody had to go online. We were just like, yeah. Every Pilates teacher in the world, yoga teacher, massage therapist, nutri, like everybody who was doing anything in person Yeah. All of a sudden was like, how do I keep making money and not be in person? One of our, and we were like, okay. One of our long term members had a spin studio. Yeah. Uh, at the time, or actually the, the wife of one of our members and. They had all these Peloton spin bikes with loans on them and stuff, and they ended up like selling their bikes to all their members so that they could pedal from home and then doing the online classes and all these people had the same gear as they did at the headquarters and stuff and their, their members really saved them, um, through kind of spreading the liability of all those bikes around. Yeah, that's super smart. I mean, people were just obviously like super creative. Or not. Or not. So we, we just got, I think, you know, we got lucky, you know, in a way we were just positioned well and, and we did, we made a lot of good choices and we, we just took off. And so, um, the last few years has been interesting. And I think for a lot of people, right, businesses change, the world is changing, it's so complex. It's harder to make those kind of buying decisions when nobody's mailing you 1, 200. Debit cards. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been, it's been fun and it's been great. And we keep evolving. And I think since then, um, well, and sold her studio finally after 20 years. So she was still running her Pilates studio and she's, man, she's just a baller. She, she got it through like, you know, the recession, she got it through COVID. She sold it and made some money. Like, yeah. I feel really proud of her, you know, she has just such a nice, she's so gritty, um, which is great in a business partner and she's super savvy. Um, so, but we really were like, so after, you know, after that kind of slowed down, we were like, all right, we got to keep pivoting. We've got to keep, what do we do now? Yeah. What's our big value proposition for the world? Yeah. What do we take from all of this? Yeah. And how do we keep moving in a direction that is lucrative and also feels like, well, high leverage too. Right. Like that's part of it. Like the, I could see the pride in your eyes when you were like, well, we were teaching the teachers of teachers, you know, and our knowledge was trickling down to many thousands. Yeah. And that's, you know, I think about, you know, people talk about purpose and everything. And I think for me, I really like, I am at the heart, like a teacher. I just, I love teaching. I get so excited about it. Like, and not just teaching, but really educating, like helping people like sink into some depth of understanding about what's possible, especially when you can guide them to change their thinking or get a new bit of information that just like. Blows their mind. Yeah. Yeah, it's so it's what I'm all about. I mean everything that I do I feel like it comes back to that and so Yeah, not to interrupt. I find that very interesting. I describe myself as a as an inch deep and a mile wide So I know so I didn't know much about Pilates and it was one of those very Small number of relative gaps where I just don't really know much but usually I know a little just enough. Yeah And Alma who you met just yeah, you're here She's been really working on this software called monday. com lately. Oh, yeah. I've heard of it. She's got, you know, the promise to be a very strong operations Executive someday if she wants to like she's just really got a Great brain. Yeah, and she's a you know, she went to like one semester of college. She's a high school graduate She's 21 years old and just seeing her and and she worked for like two hours today on a hard problem that she Showed me the string of fail fail fail and then she figured it out finally right before I got back from lunch And I'm just like dang you grew in your skills so much, so exciting, you're gonna be marketable to other people soon here. Yeah, it's great. What makes me overjoyed. To totally be a part of helping her find her special talent and expand upon them. Yeah, I mean, when you help people expand their capacity for being special. fully integrated, awesome humans. There just really is nothing better. And so like, that's, you know, that's like the essence of our business now. We, we, that's why we kind of say like, we work in three lanes. So education, business and behavior change. And still mostly with the health. Provider types? Well, our, just our audience keeps expanding, expanding, expanding, which has been the goal. Um, and that's not particularly easy. Um, right. Well, if you stay with the nutritionists and the chiropractors and the stuff like that, it's kind of a narrower scope, right? So we've been, um, businesses. It's evolving kind of is serving now different groups of people. Our education is still targeted at, um, primarily people who are in somatics, so body based stuff, whether it's, you know, Pilates, yoga, What physical therapy, you know, occupational therapy, who have a body of expertise, they have a body of knowledge, and they want to take it and create online education for their clients or for their staff. Um, and we have very, very specific, very unique way of helping people do that because we know how the brain learns. We also know the value of having an embodied experience, so you're not just thinking about things intellectually, but you're tapping into like, well, how does it feel to me in my body to, you know, learn a thing or be, do I like to learn individually? Do I like to learn in a group? How do I, It all kind of comes back to like psychological safety and creating containers of, um, curiosity and safety where people feel like they can learn and they can contribute and they can be in discourse with others. It's like a very special recipe to make learning really poignant and with what we talk about is transformative. Like, we don't want to just get Right. We actually want you to be transformed by the information. Well, and that was, the word I keyed on there was the discourse. Yeah. So there's like some interaction between the students and one another or different ways? Totally. Or just them to the school, them to the teachers? All, all of the things. So it's a just, again, it's like a very specific, special recipe on how, so we lean on something called universal design for learning, which is based on how the brain learns. And it has a lot of different components. Um, and one is like, how do we learn, you know, we need to create. So usually when a, a student fails or a person who is in the learning position fails, it's not because of them. It's because of the, it's because of the container that's been created for them. The information. Yeah. And so. It's really important that you're building these containers for education in a specific way that offers, as an example, variability for the learner. So the learner has to feel like they have choice and advocacy as to how they learn. So, uh, one simple example of that would be if you. make a video, you should have a transcript also available and you should have an audio file also available. And so that's learner variability. There's a, there's a very common myth about like, I am a kinesthetic learner or I am a visual learner. We talk about like, what kind of learner are you? The truth is you are all the learners. You're all the types. And it depends on the context and the, and the information that's being given to you and any particular given day as to what. kind of learning mechanism is going to support you best. Interesting. So we do tend to kind of over time develop, uh, tendencies toward learning more visually or auditorily or, you know, kinesthetically right through, through hands on, um, but. The truth is we are learning in all of the ways, all of the time. So that's like our secret sauce. So we still are doing that. We help people turn their expertise and bodies of knowledge into really poignant education so they can increase their revenue and profit. So it all comes back to, you know, how do we create an ecosystem for your business, which includes education? And how does that education support your other offers? So everything becomes, you know, It's a program to turn your content into good online stuff. Yeah, which supports people then doing whatever else you want them to do. Because when you can really provide a transformation for somebody, when you can clearly say you started here at point A, and now you're here at point B, and you can see the difference. It's in motivational science that's called discrepancy. So I have to be aware of where I'm at, or where I was. And where I am now. And that motivates me to take the next step. If I don't have that clarity, I, I'm like, I'm going to lose interest. There's too many competing, you know, desires and, and, uh, you know, responsibilities. So the goal is like when you can transform somebody, then, then they're hooked. Well, and like, I'm thinking back to a conversation I had with a strategic planning guy and one of the really hard things. about strategic planning in general is a, a fair minded assessment of the actual where we are today. Yeah. Right? And I guess the question I would spring from that is, like, are you taking some sort of an assessment when you, when you're trying to say this, this future self is different than the current self, that's that transition or transformation that we accomplished? Are you, like, uptaking a certain amount of data as far as who they are, how their business is working now, what are the goal, goal stakes or whatever? Yeah, so that's actually a very interesting component because assessment is one of the key components of universal design for learning. Okay. So you have to assess, and there are so many ways to assess, and there are so many ways to gather metrics and data, and we lean on all kinds of things depending on what the data is. Like what kind of education it is that the person is doing and what the outcome is. And, um, but it is a hundred percent it's from the beginning. You're having people assess in different ways. And then we have built as a business, we just do so many cool things we have, we have built, um, assessments for the business owners that we work with to evaluate their, um, strategy from a nervous system perspective. So, that, right? That's like, open up that can of worms. Like their business strategy from a nervous system perspective? Yeah, so how do they react and respond to different, um, areas of their business. And so what it helps us to assess, um, and make them aware of is where what are they leaning into? And what are they turning away from? Right? Because your nervous system, basically, like, the truth is, and we know this via science now is that your nervous system is this thing that is working all the time, under the surface, unconsciously. And it is primarily gathering information from how your body is reacting to stimulus. And it's sending your brain a message that says, I'm safe, I'm safe, I'm safe. And therefore, I can be relaxed, I can make eye contact, I can communicate well, I can facially express, I can creatively problem solve. I can be in conflict and not be aggressive. Like when our nervous systems feel safe, the fucking, the world is our oyster. Okay. You know, we have greater capacity for joy, for compassion, for empathy, for being with others, for connecting. But when the nervous system says, and I'm talking about unconscious, you're not thinking this, you're feeling this, when your nervous system is not feeling safe, you're, you. Like, literally, if you notice, this will be an interesting experiment, your voice will become more monotone. You will stop making expressions through your face. You will often, like, retract or remove yourself from a situation. You'll literally sit back in your seat or move away from the person. You, um, see, when your nervous system is not safe, it says something to your brain. And your brain, it's like information is coming up to your brain and your brain is going, okay, how do I, I need to be defensive because I'm now at risk. And so what happens like at the prefrontal cortex is that your capacity for, um, cognitive like problem solving and, um, analytical thinking is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And so, because When your nervous system, it's so, it's, it's so, um, fundamentally evolutionary. And so, just think about, like, thousands of years ago, if there was an animal that was about to eat you, and The only thing you want to see or hear is the animal. It's almost like a large language model, a little bit. Like it's learning from all these kind of like, based on this word and the ones before it, the next one is this. Yes. And the nervous system is saying, well, based on these stimuli and these responses that I've created, Accumulated the data from yes, I you know, I I don't enjoy it when I'm slogging through email and I've got too much communications Yes, it makes me avoid going to work on time. Yes, or feeling good about going to work. Yes. Yes Podcast. Oh good. I get to have a podcast. I get to meet somebody new today, right? And so that's one reason I have a administrative assistant that turns my hundred daily emails into 20 20, right? And that takes a lot of cognitive load off of my brain. No, I've got to get rid of 60 or 80. Cranky emails and yeah, right, especially like, especially if you have had an experience somewhere in your life that makes you averse to the email thing. Right. Not everybody has that. Most of us do because it is tedious and it does feel like, you know, you're going to open an email and there's a problem there. Right. Well, we, well, I certainly had problems where I like, even just today I got, I dug back down to an email where somebody said they would love to be on the podcast on July 16th. Well, I was back in June, I didn't reply to them, it's like I booked somebody else for tomorrow. Oh shit. You know, so, like, so there's this, and he's one of my members besides, so there's a person that pays me every month to be in my little club thing. And then I'm like, Oh, sorry, I dissed you on that. Yeah. Email conversation. Yeah. So it's all, that's just such a great example though, because it's just unconsciously always dictating behavior. Right, you don't want to do that. And so it's not so fascinating because it's not just, so a lot of the way we behave is, this is the, this is the thing I always say. So when you were a child. Right. You're learning to behave to stimulus in the world and you're literally your neuroanatomy is shaping. So your brain is shaping. The function of your brain is shaping and it's shaping through this lens of the stimuli that you are being exposed to. So what gets me a pat on the head and what makes me feel shamed, what makes me feel guilt, what makes me feel loved, what makes me feel accepted, internal stimuli, more, no, it's definitely, it's primarily, but from people, you feel it based on your perception of them, but it's. Internally, rather than like, you're not, you're not performing for the crowd so much as you're performing for your own feelings, the way that other people's stimulated comes from external to you comes into you, but it's not, it's how the makes you feel. Yeah. So you actually drives. Yeah. So what happens is like you, you are exposed to something, somebody says something and it's not like the thing, you know, we've heard a lot is like, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Yeah. Yeah. We now have like. Actual science that says that's the your body responds to tonality. Yeah, and something called prosody Which is like it's a combination of things. It's Tona. It's intonation and and like volume you think so exactly Like I love you Versus like I love you, you know, so we are we are taking in all of this stimulus And we're making meaning out of it, but we're making meaning out of it from our tiny child brain. But basically it's like, okay, now I have this, I have this like stained glass and I'm interpreting the world through. Right. I'm, I'm, there's a stimulus, I'm responding to the stimulus, I'm making meaning out of the stimulus. And then, oh, there's another color, there's another shape, there's another, it's like, so what happens as we get older, is we're perceiving through this stained glass. Our nervous system is responding and it's going through this stained glass of interpretation and perception and the brain's going, Oh, that means that person is. This and that, or that means I'm this and that, or that means now I'm gonna, I have to be defensive and I'm gonna respond this way, you know, like in my family, my, there's a, there is a learned behavior that I am just, I think, on the other side of, which is just incredible defensiveness, which I learned from my mom, love her to death. And what I know now is it was a mechanism of defense for herself. And I learned it. It's, I don't want to be that way, but I literally learned it. I could feel it in my body because I was responding to her body language and her, and then I learned how to say a thing that sounds defensive. And so we learn these behaviors and it's automatic. It's unconscious until we bring it up to the consciousness. Until we literally go, Oh, Oh, I can, I can feel my heart racing. I can feel my, you know, stomach gripping. I can feel myself tensing. I can feel myself backing away. Oh, I'm doing that thing. I'm about to be defensive, I'm about to say a thing, but that's like, that takes a lot of awareness. Mostly it's like, Oh, I'm fucking freaking out. And then you have a little awareness in the background and you're like, Oh, I'm fucking freaking out. I wish I wasn't doing that. But you're still doing it because your whole body is like attuned to freaking out over this particular stimulus and you don't actually have control over it. Because it's such a learned behavior. But the learned behavior is rooted in how your nervous system has historically responded. Yeah. And even just like that funny walk you learned from your dad or whatever that you can change that. Yes. Similarly. Yeah, you can change the way your nervous system, so the interesting thing is like, you got to become aware of it so that you can create a little bit of space between the way you're used to behaving and reacting and saying, Oh, look, this is just my body doing a thing. Oh, that's going to like make me freak the fuck out in a second. Or I can take a couple of deep breaths or do these like simple things and I can support myself by Yeah. Walking out of the room, taking a moment and saying like, I can't have this conversation with you right now, or I love you and I need a, I need a moment, I need a break or whatever the strategy is. But it starts with recognizing like, because your body is like, yeah, it's so much wisdom and so much intelligence. If you just listen to it, then, then you can do something to start to change it. Because the truth is like, if we take trauma for, like, this is the biggest example, right? somebody has a trauma. Um, and so like my car accident in 2020. Um, I had been riding motorcycles for six or seven years and, you know, driving for a very long time. Sure. And sure. It was, it was intense and it was traumatic and it was like kind of a car accident, car accident, but, and then I, you know, like I processed it and I had already this body of knowledge of like, Oh, my body is doing this thing. And I'm aware of like, I'm in a trauma response and I could. Notice it, but it still, it's still there. Like I still, like my experience of riding motorcycles now is a little different than it was before the accident. There's a little bit more, I can feel my body just like, I'm a little more tense. I'm a little bit more worried than I was before. Even though, I'm a very safe rider. I'm in safe circumstances. Like I am safe, but my body is like, Oh, but there's something that happened to us that gets triggered when I'm in a car, not so much when I'm in a car anymore, but sometimes when I'm on the motorcycle, but I know now, I mean, like, I know I have the awareness, like, Oh, this is not accurate. Like I'm not accurately responding. So I have to like, calm myself down. Yeah. So, when we have trauma, right, it colors that stained glass even more and then we can get stuck when there's serious trauma. We can get stuck in the trauma loop, you know, where we're just, we're reliving the experience even when there is not stimulus or stimuli that is accurately putting us in danger. So, I'm thinking of a song lyric right now. Uh, it might be sublime. Okay, I'm so bad at this, I'm not going to know. I saw red, I saw red, one more And it's that, that notion of seeing red. Totally. Right, you can't actually see clearly. We, we had a speaker in a loco chapter years ago that talked about kind of the getting up on the balcony. Mm hmm. Like leaving the reptile trauma response brain behind. Yes, I've heard that, I've heard that. And kind of create enough separation so you can try to see clearly. And that's kind of just the, it's basically the same thing that you're talking about and it's the opposite of Yes. Like we've seen, especially videos on the internet these days and stuff, where some Karen goes and gets herself pushed out because she's being a crazy bee or whatever. Like they just can't think rationally because of the circumstance. Yeah. I mean, that's the, that's, so that's like kind of the domain we're really working in these days. It's like, how do we, so we, we, How do we find those blocks? Well, the newest emergent piece of our business is working with, with people who are, um, working in organizational development, change and transition and working with founders and working with entrepreneurs who are scaling and preparing for selling or whatever they might be doing. And, um, How do you leverage this knowledge of the nervous system and its link to behavior so that you can help a leader navigate change and lead their team more effectively and, and manage all of these things? Because we were just talking to, we're working with a really great company right now. We're doing nervous system training with them, and they work directly with leaders who are in change and transition and One of them was sharing with us like we we've got one leader Who's very flexible who's like bringing new ideas to the table who is you know? Kind of super on board and I was like, oh, yes, it's because they're They feel safe in this environment, you know, they, they, the change does not make them feel vulnerable. Does it? So, so they're like experience is optimized. They're like fully creative, they're energized there. But then they have another leader who is like combative and resistant against anything new. Yeah, because so this is the interesting insight was their experience of this leader is like It's a death of something. It's like, their business, they weren't, they didn't disclose the business, so I don't know what the domain is. But, um, They, it's like, it's everything to them so that it's the death of something and they're moving into some other transition. And so I was like, yes, of course. Like when you see it that way, your nervous system goes into high defense mode, which I'm not learning nothing new right now, which is like, I, I can't, my brain can't return. Yeah. So what's interesting is like, literally we see less. We hear less, our capacity to problem solve is less, like literally all of our capacities physiologically shrink, including the way our brain is able to work. Huh. So. Almost like a constriction of blood vessels would shrink off your, your heart's capacity. Yeah. To do stuff or whatever. Well, and it has impact on the heart. It has impact on all of our six major physiological, you know, systems. Yeah. And so. So. It's just fascinating. It's like, well, how can this information, you're not going to like necessarily teach your leaders this, although we do teach people how to do this work with their teams and whatnot. But it's like, how does this information help you better understand the process that they're going through, which is not just systems. It's not just about, you know, strategy. It's not just about frameworks. It's like, I love, I listened to a couple of the podcasts, um, and I was listening to the one with Jill Simmons. Jill Simons. Simons. Yeah. And she said something about EOS, which I, I was like, I kind of, uh, grabbed onto, which is something about managing human something. Yeah. Capability or capacity. Yeah. I was like, Oh my gosh. She's like totally speaking my language. Yeah, yeah. Well, you get people to want to do the things. Yeah, but how does it, we just have such an antiquated way, I think, in my opinion, of dealing, we think about it so much from this intellectual, strategic framework perspective. It's like, but you're ignoring. 90 percent of the intelligence that actually exists within you that can help improve the way we create systems, how we implement, how we integrate, how we create, you know, better culture within our businesses and organizations. So we were asking this group, these women, like, how does this information better support you? You have this understanding. Does it give you? You more empathy, more compassion. Does it open up different ideas for you to work with this leader and not just think he's an a hole, but like, like, how do you get his brain to work better? Right. You, you're not trying to be an a hole. No. Poor guy. He's like, you know, he's like, from feeling threatened, under equipped in some ways, you know, industry has changed. He's still got to be the leader. And he's super defensive and he's, he's struggling. So how do we. How do we, if you have this body of knowledge, if you have this information, you can do incredible things to get, to help. I mean, on every level, as I said before, but what we're really doing and interested in right now in our business is working with. Yeah. Um, you should definitely listen to my podcast episode number 41 with Allison Seebeck. Okay. Uh, she's my facilitator of the, kind of the right hand employees of our larger. Okay. clients, but she joined a company called ProSci based here in Fort Collins. It was, they did change management before that was a thing really, before it had a name. And uh, she ascended to become the, the president to take over from the founder when he sold a private equity when she was 29. Oh my gosh. And the company was like a bunch of old 55 year old white dudes, just like your early career. Yeah. Um, and Allison really isn't scared of nothing. And she's so open to other people's ideas and things whilst knowing a bad idea when she hears it. Um, and uh, Sounds like a very settled nervous system to me. Yes. Flexible. Well, and she was a linguist by education and just kind of the knowledge of, of, of of how we interact with each other's, what the words that we use, um, and you guys should connect like next time you come visit Colorado or something, I should, I'll make an introduction and I would love that. You would probably love each other quite a bit. Yeah, I love that. Well, I'm here, I'm here all the time. So yeah, and do listen to that episode, but I'll make an introduction shortly. I'd love it. That's great. Um, If there were like a couple, three things like hot tips for people trying to change themselves, you know, uh, your, your programs and topics are very kind of teaching teachers kind of thing, but just an average listener that's like, you know what, I'm convinced she's right. The nervous system does indeed drive my behavior and that's what makes me succeed or fail more than I care to admit. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I think the first thing I would just invite people to do is be curious. Thanks. Hmm. It's just to be curious, like, you know, without getting into a lot of the science that there, there are, I mean, you know, the fight or flight state, you know, the rest and digest state. Like it was a very primitive way of understanding the nervous system. But, um, we basically are in a position from a nervous system perspective to connect. And so it's called social engagement. It's actually the newest evolutionary, um, aspect of the vagus nerve and it, it, it radiates like kind of from the chest up. So literally the nerve innervates the face, the eyes, the larynx, the pharynx, the middle ear. And things like eye contact feed that. Yes. I suspect. Yes. And so when, yeah. When we, we, when we are in a. So when we feel safe, we can do that. You know, we can smile, we can laugh, we can be present, we can connect. And then we move toward fight or flight, which is a sympathetic response. It's mobilization. Uh, so we're either gonna run into the thing or we're gonna run away from the thing. Yeah, yeah. Right. From front of the dragon. Yeah. So, so there is this, we sometimes talk about it as like an I can energy. It's like, I'm gonna. I'm going to do something. I'm highly mobilized. And there's actually a really healthy range of that where we need that. We need to be mobilized. We need to have, feel confident. We need to feel like I can tackle a problem. I can, you know, do what needs to be done. But there is that is rational behind it, too. Yeah. So you but your brain is still like, you're good. You know, you can think you can slow down, you can be creative, all these things. But it is still a sympathetic aspect is still mobilized. But that's a that's a flavor of fight or flight. Right? So So that's starting to narrow your focus, your available options kind of down, right? So the more, the more urgent something becomes or the more at threat we become, then we get into fight or flight and, um, that's, you know, aggression or, um, retracting. We call it like our, in our work, we always are like our clients retreating. Or are they rebelling? And so those are fight or flight responses. Like is somebody like kicking up dirt for no reason? Are they complaining? Are they just being a total turd? You know, or have we haven't we not heard from them in three months? So retreating and rebelling are both mobilized. you know, kind of characteristics or behaviors. And then when we get really dysregulated, when we get into life threat, it's called, it's immobilization. And so we become disassociated. We turn away, we don't connect. It's disconnection. It's like, literally we, we can't, we don't want to be with other people. We can't be, it can be depression can be a response to that. Um, apathy, disassociation, like now we're kind of getting into like, Oh, very interesting mental health. Right. You know, behaviors. Chemical dependency. I imagine. Yeah, that can be, you know, um, you know, self medicating. Sometimes that's just the chemicals. Yeah. Well, self medicating is like, I think a thing we do to soothe, soothe the nervous system. That's what I'm saying. It's like a disassociating thing. Yeah. Yeah. You got something. Right. And, and I, you know, that can, that can happen when we're in the mobilized state. Right, right. You know, or it can happen when we're in that disconnection state. So it can happen at any range. It doesn't necessarily. Just kind of depends. So I would just invite people to get curious of like, when they become agitated, stressed, overwhelmed, you know, when you start not feeling great. You know, you start becoming bitchy or whatever you do, you know, like my, my word always is like, I'm so annoyed. Like I'm so annoyed at this thing or irritated. It's like, Oh, I roll. How am I? I'm just, I'm just curious. Like, how am I behaving? I am also a mobilizer. Like I, I fucking go into high gear. I go into action. Yeah. I don't run away from things. I know this about myself only because I have. attended, you know, so I would just invite people to get curious about like, when they're in tough situations, what are they? What are they thinking? What are they feeling? And what's happening in their body. So we always, the way the work unfolds for us is you wanna start to attend on the level of the body. Like do you sweat? Do you, does your heart race? Do you get like, you know, all tied up in your gut? Yeah. Do you like whatever? Do you, does your eye twitch? Right? Like what happens physiologically? Yeah. I think Jill was talking in her podcast about how she has a lot of test anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. That's a nervous system response. Whereas mine has always been pretty chill. Yeah. You know, in comparison. Yeah. I love tests because they showed me how smart I was compared to all the other I love tests. Well, I was only five kids in my class growing up, so, but it was like a validation thing for me. Very different experience. Whereas she might have been like, I should have, I'm the smartest, I'm very smart, but I missed these two dumb questions that I just got nervous about. Right. And it just creates that anxiety loop. What's so interesting about that, right, is like, that's the way you made meaning out of it. And that's versus the way she made meaning out of it. The stimuli is the test, and your body does the thing, which makes you probably better at test taking. And so it's like this, like, self fulfilling process. Yeah, but I'm shit at execution, like, I'd way rather hire Jill than me for any job just about. Yeah. Yeah. Not an exaggeration, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, curiosity's a big thing. You just start to notice. Examination. You know, a lot of times we invite people if they're, if they're, on board enough. You know, the way we deliver this work really depends on the domain and it depends on how much buy in there is. Yeah, because sometimes it's just enough to know if you are an integrator or you're implementing or you're actually the support for the leader. It's just enough to know because it informs your strategy and your style, like how you coach and how you, you know, are going to guide a person. They don't always need to know, because if you're a good enough educator, teacher, facilitator, you can work some magic on them without them knowing it. They don't need to know it's corrective behavior, uh, engagement, it's actually just, hey, here's a nice tip. Yeah. Or you just change the way you, you do, and then they, so that's the other cool thing about the nervous system is that unconsciously, immediately I change you and you change me. Because it's, I'm responding to the way you look, the way you behave, the way you look at me or don't look at me. Like, so subtle and under the surface. So like if I did something like this, I forget how to do that. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, if you were shouting at me when I walked in the door, I'd probably, Have a very different response. Right, right. So, um. Okay. Yeah, noticing. Well, I was gonna say, you know, we sometimes have people, like, write it down. You know, like, when they have a triggering moment, you know. It could be like, I spill my coffee, and I freak the fuck out. Right. And, and like. I did this thing, and then I thought this thing, and I felt this thing, and then I was a total shit to my, you know, kid or my spouse, and just kind of bringing the dirt up to the surface can be so revealing. So that would be my biggest, like, do that. And then the other, like, simplest thing is just, And when you notice you're, you know, there's lots of language we can use around it. Like you're activated or you're stressed out. It's like just, yeah, triggered. Yeah. Probably a little bit too big a word. Well it's an interesting word because I think it has like a negative connotation. We also teach this flip side of like, how do you optimize stress? The regulated experience, like how do you because the goal is not just to come back to neutral, like I'm so steady, regulated and unfazed. It's like, how do you dance between the two? How do you transition between handling stress and returning to steadiness? And we want to minimize the cost of that. And we want the transition to be smooth. Because the world is complex and it's not getting less complex. So, you know, it's like, we want to be able to dance between the two. Sorry, I kind of cut you off, but so, so it was when you noticed that you're getting this anxious thing or this triggered thing, then you do, yeah. Three deep breaths. Oh, I mean, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. We call it, so our strategy is like, you have to stop and listen. Right. So when you notice. You're starting to spin out, you know, whatever language you use, whatever, it's stressed, overwhelmed, triggered, whatever, you, you stop and you go, what's happening? And we kind of support people and coming up with a question that feels relevant to them, you know, whether it's how am I feeling? How am I doing? What the fuck is happening? Like, whatever. It's just going to be there. Jam. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, yeah, I'm really I'm about to do a thing or I'm really not feeling like I'm, I'm in a good space to have this conversation or whatever. And then three deep breaths. But after three deep breaths, then I will be. And it's really interesting because when you stop and you ask a question of yourself, you're automatically triggering your parasympathetic nervous system. You're like literally creating enough space to calm yourself down just a tiniest bit. And that starts to create the space. For doing something different. Yeah. That's the, that's the crack and you only need a crack. Right. Like a tiny crack, a bunch of times a day. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you feel better. Totally. I mean, It's, it is so simple and it is also not that easy. Well, like yoga has been described at least, uh, to me as like a, almost like a preparation for meditation. Well, I mean, yeah, historically that's, that's what it is. Right. So definitionally, and people use it as exercise or whatever, but it's really more of a get your body kind of square and that same kind of thing. Like the preparation for meditation. Responding rationally is being curious and taking a little pause. Yeah. Take a pause. Yeah. And a lot of our, a lot of our clients, they like that word pause. Like you just pause. And then how so much magic can happen in the pause because you don't have to just keep tripping over your own shitty behavior all the time. I mean, you can change it. Like, you can change that stained glass, you know, neuroplasticity, like, you can change it. It's so groovy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's so powerful. Did I talk to Max about HALOS, relational intelligence, on my podcast with him? I don't think we have time to unfold it now, but, um, it's kind of a disk like, uh, Uh, if you've studied disc or Enneagram or some of those things, this is a Brazilian platform and it's built on a, like a yin and a yang. I've got my two essentials for me are the thinker, uh, which is like lots of ideas, philosopher type. Uh, full inbox, uh, so there's positives and negatives. And then the social relational is my secondary type. That's kind of the people first always. Um, and each of those colors and types has positive and negative polarities. So you were talking about kind of avoiding the negative, but also spending a lot of time in the positive of your responsibility. Yeah. And it's like, I tell people like, I don't believe you'll ever truly get rid of your triggers. Right. You just form a different relationship with them. So like, I might always just have to work through this thing of like, it's somewhere in my body is stored the trauma of being hit and, and there's fear in that. And so like, I, I have to really like, It's not like I work hard to manage that, but there is a hypervigilance and shift that's kind of what's necessary. Like I, we, I don't usually two up with Max, but I, but I do really like to, and he's just a fucking phenomenal writer. So, you know, yeah. I trust him, and we two upped on Saturday up to Glenhaven, and I was like just so aware that there was a little, little piece in me that was hypervigilant. It's better if I don't look, and I just trust him. You're not trying to watch for deer, or whatever. Yeah, I just, I'm like, I gotta just trust him. I just, I just got to like take some deep breaths and let him do it. That never was the case before. And my friend Gina and I just motorcycled because I bought a GS from our buddy Jack here. I got it, had to get it home. So she had ridden from Louisiana to Colorado a couple weeks ago. She's like my moto buddy. We've crushed, you know, tens of thousands of miles together. So we rode from Colorado to Sacramento, um, in three days. And I mean, I love it. Obviously. I love it. And. Man, I have to, there's just moments where I have to really manage myself because I can feel that hypervigilance. It's almost like my brain, it triggers my brain. Like when you're in, we were going through Utah, I think it was Utah, and you know, just get these valleys where there's so much crosswind. Yeah. We had hit a nasty spot, you know, my whole body is tense and I'm just leaning and I was like, like literally deep breathing and making I'm like, it's fine. I'm not gonna fucking crash. It's gonna be fine. You know, it's not. I don't know if that will ever go away. Yeah, I don't know. But I'm, I'm But because I'm aware of it, I can manage it and I can still, I can like find steadiness and I can still find enjoyment rather than like letting it overtake the experience. And oftentimes when we're hyper, hyper vigilant and responding inaccurately to stimulus, it's a real bad situation. So many people quit riding motorcycles, for example, because They had a friend or something and they just can't quite get out of that kind of risk of trauma Yeah, I I broke my leg in a motorcycle crash. Yeah, like a week before I graduated high school I remember hearing about yeah, and in you know, our trip a few weeks ago. I missed a deer by that much Um, and And I don't think about it still. Like, I, I don't think any way. I don't feel like I have an anxious response to those. It'd be something to just be curious about. And I'm kind of sideways. I've, I've. Um, no, I didn't actually go down, but I've taken the motorcycle all the way sideways to up. Oh, geez. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah. Oh God. Yeah. That's no fun. Yeah. But I didn't crash. You know, uh, except for that very first time. Yeah. Yeah. What's another piece that's interesting to me is like the way we either do or don't have Yeah. Uh, these defensive responses to different domains in our life. Right. And I'm sure like I'm a defensive person. Sometimes there's things in my life that create that, that's just, that's one of my trigger responses. Right. Somebody criticizing me. Yeah. But maybe it's not on the motorcycle. Maybe you're just like, maybe your nervous system is way more regulated and healthy. in relationship to motorcycling than it is to. Kind of. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I love it. I can just think about motorcycles. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that's like, go way back to like the diagnostics that we've created. And I said, remember I said, we've created this assessment for people to understand how they respond to different areas of their business. And so this is where it's so fascinating. You know, somebody might be. Um, really like pretty consistently steady and able to be flexible and responsive in relationship to, um, you know, client delivery, but when it comes to finances, this is not uncommon, right? Particularly from the realm I'm coming from, people fucking freak out, they, they become, they can't look, they don't respond to emails. It's like, Oh yeah, that's, it's okay. Yeah. You know, like let's depersonalize it. Like let's not let it be a thing that we feel shame and guilt about, but like, notice that you just, you have a physiological response to this particular domain or situation. Like don't blame yourself, right? Because. It's just, it's just what's happening in your body, and if we can kind of pull it up to the surface, we can handle it differently. Seems like so much of this, and we're going to have to break here, because you've got a party to go to here. Yeah. Oh my God. And we've got some standard sections and stuff. But what I was going to say is, it seems like a lot of this would be so transferable to like, Uh, marriage counseling or just personal counseling and stuff like that. Like all the responses that I don't know where that came from, whether it's a defensive response or you know, frankly, I, I flashed to like women who've been assaulted in some capacity and so for them to like overcome that lack of that weird trust thing when this is a little bit like that other thing that wasn't good. Yeah. Well, we all, I always say to people. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, you know, there are just some things you can't think your way through. You got to feel your way through them. And I believe that with all everything that I am. And it's not just anecdotal, it's not experiential. It's like it's their science, you know, it's like if you just keep thinking about the thing, you're just reliving the trauma. Like you can do, you can have, there's great therapists out there. Don't get me wrong. But there is a place for this. body based work. You know, there's just a different intelligence and wisdom in us that we don't rely on that could change every domain. I mean, we actually have a program called NSIF, which is Nervous System Integration Facilitator. It's a certification program, a licensing program. So we train people to come in and learn How to facilitate this work in whatever capacity they're in. So we have executive coaches, we have health and wellness coaches, we have somatic people, and they're using the work and they're integrating it into what they do. And it's, You know, we've had people who are applying it to like end of life, you know, hospice to, um, you know, in California, particularly sports teams, anything, well, right. Sports teams, particularly. Um, I did a training recently through the Polyvagal Institute, uh, with a guy who's a professional tennis coach, you know, so people are bringing it to bear on so many domains. Right. It's powerful. I think it's kind of leading edge of high performance coaching, right? And just being a high performance human. 100%. Alright. Well, I'm going to call it potty break and a wine refill. Oh, that sounds good. And we'll wrap this thing up. Okay. Me, me, me, me, me. And we're back. We are back. You sing a whole song? Enthusiastic for the last half of this. Kind of. It's not what you say. It's not what you say, Kurt. It's how you say it. I have a, uh, I have a Tarzan yell that is among the best you've ever heard, but I don't know if I can do it in here. We might have to wait until we're outside. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, we'll do that when we leave. Um, so, uh, mandatory topics, uh, for any open minded thinker, curious person. Okay. Uh, faith, family, and politics. Yeah. Uh, where would you prefer to start in those three? Well, I got a lot to say about family and a little bit to say about the other two, so you choose. Fair enough. Well, let's start with family. Okay. Um, a lot of our guests, we jump in the time machine and go back to first grade or something, find out how, uh, little Chantel was, uh, behaved and stuff. But let's just do kind of a, a flash forward on your parents. Your parents, siblings, things like that, if there is anything, your upbringing, just a touch in the Central Valley. Yeah, yeah, uh, well, I have, I just have a great family. I love my mom and dad so much. Um, you know, they, they were They did the best they could, you know, what were they doing? Well, you know, they, yeah, my dad, my dad is just a lovely human and also just really struggled. And so I feel I always tell my sisters like the version of our folks that I got. I got the best. Well, you know, I got through a rose colored glasses. Yeah, just they were, they were happy and healthy and doing cool shit. And, you know, it was great. And then, and then it just was like, they weren't really a good fit, you know, and they, and they struggled. And, um, I have two sisters, two younger sisters, I'm the eldest of three. And, um, I think by the time I was in third grade, I think I remember, I can remember my mom and dad sitting me down and saying like, we're, we're gonna. We're separating, we're divorcing. Um, they didn't actually get divorced officially until I was 16. So that was a fucking roller coaster. Uh, you know, How old were your sisters comparably? So my sister, my middle sister, Anna is about two years younger. Okay. And then my youngest sister, Amber is seven years younger than me. Um, And yeah, it was just, you know, it was a rocky ride. My dad, I think, you know, freaked out. Talk about nervous system dysregulation. He was angry and, um, didn't, he was always loving and kind to us. There was nothing like that. But he, he just made some bad choices and wasn't around a lot. all the time. And, but, you know, for me again, like when he was around, I have very fond memories. You know, he was always at sports events. He coached my soccer team. He was there. My, I tell this story about, uh, I ran track. I didn't, I don't know why I did that. Didn't. Liked running Um, you were your distance. I went to high. I went to high Jump. Okay. And so, but my coach was like, you can't be on the track team without running. So she forced me to run the one thing that nobody wanted to run, which was the 400 meter meter hurdles. Mm-Hmm. And, uh, you know, my dad and my uncle, his, his older brother, they were there. It was a, a home meet and I was doing pretty good. That's doing pretty good for somebody who's, no, I don't have speed, you know, I have agility, coordination, but I don't have speed. So I think maybe I was coming in second or something and I hit the last hurdle and I fell straight on my ass at, uh, like in front of my dad and in front of my uncle and I yelled fuck so loud. Oh shit. And I was not only mortified that I had fallen, but I was also so deeply humiliated that I had said a cuss word because my dad was like, no cussing. Interesting. Yeah. So, you know, I love my dad. He's great. He's supportive. He lives with me, actually. Oh, wow. Um, and he's just, he's a go getter. He was in construction and. Yeah. A foreman for many years. He's super handy. He's taught my son all kinds of things and, um, so I feel very lucky. Yeah. Uh, and my mom is just, she's a fucking kick ass woman. She basically raised us, you know, I was her parental partner for most of my young life because my dad wasn't totally involved in that way. You know, we had, I have all my friends, all of my like lifetime friends. There's a handful still, uh, that I'm close with. They remember her always like in her overalls working on the cars. You know, we had this old pickup truck and we had an old Volkswagen. Uh, she just was always, she just did whatever fucking was necessary. Yeah. She was like always under the hood. Well, for a lot of females, even in like the enlightened present, Working on cars isn't part of their job description period. She just did everything right. She did everything. She's fucking great. I always describe her too as like a big heart with legs. She's just the kindest, sweetest, most loving, gushing, beautiful human. And despite a lot of years of turmoil, what I am so grateful for and what I, what I, what informed the way I ended my marriage was, how my parents are now, not the way they did it. Cause I was like, I don't want to fucking do it the way they did it. Like they, they couldn't make a decision. I think they were so torn about it, but, um, The way they are now is so sweet and just delightful. And my mom comes down, she lives up in the mountains in California, kind of on the West coast and she'll logger or something like that. They live up on a fucking mountain. She, she's like basically a homesteader in a lot of ways. You know, she's, she's retired, but has a garden and they live out in the middle of fucking nowhere. I never go there cause I'm lazy hassle, but I, I, she comes down and, I just recently, uh, last week they were there and, um, they're just so sweet together. They go out and they garden in my garden. I'm a huge gardener. I have like 90 house plants and we have a beautiful backyard. They just, they're just so sweet. I just love them so much. And they're so supportive and seeing them together is like. And then, you know, they're so involved with the kids, so my son is 18, Charlie, just graduated high school. He's the older, I guess. He's the older, and my daughter is 10. Okay. And, um, they're so different. You know, I'm, I'm in an interesting phase of like, uh, gosh, just like, really. Like, my heart breaks a little bit for the fact that my son is no longer a child. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's becoming a man. He's just like, off. He was here a couple weeks ago. We brought him with his girlfriend and we went to see Max play in his Grateful Dead band, Peak to Peak, in Boulder. Um, some of my other best friends from Sacramento had come into town because they had never seen Max play. They've met him, you know, lots and lots of times, but they've never seen my life here. Um, and we were, we were, you know, partaking in lots of delightful things. Um, here come the kids out from the, in the green, they came out of the green room and into the, you know, music space and I was like, Oh my God, they are so fucking stoned. And the, it was just so interesting, you know, The kids. Both of them? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Your 10 year old? No, the 18 year old. Oh, and his girlfriend. Okay. I'm like, No, I left my 10 year old at home. I was like, no, this is an adults only kind of situation. Um, but you know, it's just like, so interesting and fabulous to see him emerging as a, as a human being, you know, and also like, Some yeah Coming here. We you probably heard we do one word descriptions. Oh, I did hear this. Oh my gosh. I thought I should Charlie. Oh Hmm delightful. That's sweet. He's just a delightful human. He really is. He's fucking wicked smart and also Struggles, you know, he just like, you know, you know, yeah, he'll find his way, you know, he'll find his way. Uh, my daughter is, she's a pistol, a pistol. She's a pistol. What's her name again? Sydney. Sydney. Yeah. Sydney with a C. She's, she's a firecracker. She's just, everybody teases me and says, Oh, she's just like, you know, she's sassy. She's like me as a, as a realized adult. You know, I was never like that when I was a kid. I was like, Well, she probably learned that from you though. Yeah. Like you were becoming that as she was just a baby. Yeah, I think so. Although I do joke with people like, Whereas Charlie took 26 hours to be born, he fucking would not come out. Sydney was like, she shot out like a fucking warrior. I mean, maybe that's too much information. I'm here. I'm ready. She pulled herself out. I got the head out of my little fingers. It's really pretty, um, phenomenal that they're very different, but they, they have this thing. Uh, they have this thing I think that we all have is they're just super big hearted, lovely, empathetic, beautiful little, little humans. Well, I'm imagining that mom has been talking about all the stuff she's been learning about for years and stuff like that. And that really helps to bring somebody along, you know, outside of your zone. I try to practice it too, you know, they don't give a fuck. I mean, Charlie is interested. He's always been interested in my, in my work. Um, But, you know, Sid's just like, she's much more of a, you know, yeah, she's just like making waves. Do it. Do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're great. Um, and then of course there's Max and yeah, he's, he's, where did you guys meet? Well, we have a mutual friend. Oh yeah. He's mentioned that. Yeah. Yeah. So my dear friend, Gina, who I known since high school, her previous boyfriend, um, Um, That's how we know Max. So Max and Vinny play music together. And I heard him say this on the podcast, so it'll be a little bit redundant. But, um, you know, they, they both were like, Oh my God, Max, this and Max, that, and you guys are so similar. And I was just separating and getting divorced and he was, He was ending, uh, um, engagement and, uh, so we really kind of know, yeah, we've known each other, uh, of each other for probably nine or 10, 11 years. Um, but we only came together, you know, about six years ago and, um, Yeah, it was just, I was smitten immediately. Were you guitar goggles or just his character? No, just, he's just, he's a delight. Oh yeah. I mean, as you know, you know, we had been talking and chatting, you know, via phone and text for a little bit. And I, I was, I used to come out to, um, Colorado every summer to teach. I was teaching at a big conference and, um, the kids and I was all road trip. So we're big road trippers. We're big travelers. And, um, And I was like, Oh, yeah, the kids and I are coming out and he's like, Oh, you drove out? I was like, Yeah. He's like, You camped? I'm like, yeah. He's like, Oh, that's really cool. And so we made plans to meet up and he was coming down out of strawberry from a music festival and he, we, he met us for dinner and it's the first time I'd ever seen him in person. Oh, wow. And He walked in the door and I was like, I'm so fucked. I'm just, I just, I was immediately smitten. Is that right? Yeah. And, you know, it, it, Uh, he said something in the interview with you about boundaries and, you know, I say this in the, in a very constructive, loving way, like he really made me work for it. Really? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because his heart was hurting from his relationship still? Well, because he just had, yeah, I think he, you know, he had just really become clear about what he would not do. Tolerate again. And he also just from the beginning was such a huge, huge advocate for me to like take my time and not rush into a relationship and figure out who I was going to be and make my life rad. And he was like, you don't need somebody else in it. And intellectually, I really was on board with that and physically you wanted to jump his bones. Well, I just was like, totally. Yeah. I was like, and also, I mean, I had been. I got married when I was in my mid twenties, I had met my previous partner when I was 19. So coming out of a relationship, it's like, you don't really realize the last time I was in a relationship when I was a fucking 19, like I got a lot to sort out. So I appreciate, and I think our relationship is so good because not that he made me work for it. Like, like I had to prove something to him, but. Um, he really was like, you gotta figure that out. You gotta figure that out. Like your life can be rad and it cannot be dependent on another person, whether that's me or somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that was, seems like part of a thing that he learned for himself. 100%. Right. Uh, relatively. Yeah. Um, I was going to ask a question and then I forgot what it was. Oh, um, you know, Max had this like. heavy motorcycle, uh, not crashed because somebody ran him over or whatever. Right. But he really got into a tough place, presumably, you know, some depression and stuff. And then kind of had the turnaround moment there, whatever, a year and a half ago or something. Yeah. Last summer. Just last summer. Yeah, last June. How was that? Like, yeah, you're like studying up on all this neuropsychology and stuff like that And he's like just leave me alone No, he was he leaning into that really so he's just he you know, he's really just an incredible Impeccable human. I just think most people would not have been able to navigate The way he did it was very interesting for us because we were like Friends Yeah. You know, and so I was coming into town a lot and we were traveling a lot together, motorcycling a lot together, and it was just like, this is my friend. You know, we were just definitely friends and having sex, which was fucking great. With benefits is what we call that. Yeah. And yeah, and, and it was fine because. But deep friends. Yeah. Obviously. Well, like intentionally building something. Yeah. Um, and I, At the time of the accident, my ex and I were still living together because we had decided that instead of doing the typical, let's have two homes, make the kids go back and forth. That's fucking bullshit. You're the adults. You should do the hard work and the kids should have it easy. So we stayed living together and you know, we had a whole system in place, but whatever we were. Yeah. My ex and I and the kids were all watching a movie and it's so sweet. My daughter, she even now, she, every time we watch, there's a silly movie called Jungle Cruise with The Rock. We were watching that. And when I got the call from his older daughter, his oldest daughter, Emma, and I just thought, I mean, I just, she told me he was in the hospital. She had told me what happened. And You know, we stopped the movie and I was like, I got to go to, I'm going to Colorado. Like, can you figure it out and be with the kids? And my daughter still, every time we even talk about that movie, she's like, she's like, I will never forget that we were watching that movie when Max got into his accident. Yeah. And I came, I, I, I asked permission From the girls to come because it's just such an intense and sensitive Moment. Yeah, and I we were not like, oh, we're in love and I'm your partner and there was no assumption, right? So there was like can I come and can I be how can I be supportive? And how can I be helpful and I? I I traveled. What an honoring question to those girls that are, you know, young adults of their own. Yeah, well, I just love them. Your claim is a little stronger on Max than mine so far, you know. Maybe not forever, but right now. Well, forever. 100 percent forever. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean. Yeah. In my, in my point of view. But daughters grow up and become their own people and stuff, too, to a certain extent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true. Whereas you might be with Max for 30 years. Yeah. Well, I just, I was so aware of, like, my place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was, it was a very special thing to just, Emma was like, yes, please come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please come. And so I was on a plane the next morning. Yeah. And then I traveled back and forth for, you know. That was the end of July, August, September, October, for three straight months I was here every other week. Wow. And, um, Disrupting all kinds of stuff that you had going on with your business partner and plans for the summer. Yeah, I mean, but luckily I could, you know, my work was flexible. I could work from anywhere. It was, Could you? Yeah. Oh, you did? Yeah. You can separate pretty good like that and just like, okay, I got to put six hours in working a day. Yeah. Well, I mean, one thing I have always really been good at is I have never like compartmentalized myself or my life. And so I flow pretty easily from work to living to, you know, um, wishes came in real handy because there's a lot of intensity and caretaking and, um, yeah, it was just a real honor. Yeah. Yeah. To be a part of that. And then to be a part of it, you know, he did struggle, man, he struggled. Yeah. And it was hard sometimes. to, you know, to show up and, uh, after that October, I was like, I just, I need to stay home for a little bit. I need to, I need a break, you know, I'm like, I'm coming here and I'm caretaking and supporting and then I'm, and then I'm going home and I'm caretaking and supporting my own tribe. And, well, and really from there, you kind of, you know, slowly trickled downhill really in his physical health for the next six or nine months. Yeah, it was such a challenge. It was such a challenge, but it was a pivotal moment as these things are, you know, for our relationship. And, um, Oh yeah. Once you walk through the fire together, you're galvanized kind of. Yeah. And we just learned a lot about each other and sure. Yeah, now, now it's just so sweet and wonderful, and I really love, I'm starting to say and I feel like I have a life in California, which I love and is rich and is with my children, and then I really feel like I have a life here. Yeah. Which is really beautiful. Yeah. Would you ever move here? Um, I don't really think that's a thing we're going to do. I mean, you know, we're still, we're still like fiercely independent. Yeah. I'm in Sacramento for the next eight years. And, um, I think we will continue to walk our own paths for a long time. And, you know, Max has his career and his own ideas about, you know, what he wants his life to be like. And I'm a hundred percent in support of that. So wherever that takes him, you know, and his folks are getting older and, you know, my folks are getting older. So at some point I think we'll, we'll converge, we'll cohabitate, but it won't be for a while. It's just so great the way it is. I think, you know, having a long distance relationship has really worked for us. It made it, made our relationship pretty fucking great. We always just say, he always says like, I just always want you to think I'm cool. Like if you spend a little more time away from me, it'll be easier. Well, it's just good. It's just good. It's just healthy. No, a hundred percent. Yeah. No. And I think he's fucking rad. Right. And he thinks I'm rad. Right. So, you know, if we can just keep that going, yeah. I dig it. Anything else you want to touch on in family? Um, Is there anything more on your girl, your daughter, your son? Um, I mean, they're just, it's just great. You know, it's just all really great. And, you know, being a parent is not particularly easy. So I'm getting better at it. Yeah. That's good. Good. You'll be perfect at it. Maybe you could adopt one. No. Fuck no. Wow. No. I mean, kudos to folks who do, but that's not for me. Uh, faith or politics? Okay. Yeah. Uh, faith. Um, yeah, I think, um, You mentioned your dad didn't want you cussing out there when you said, yeah, my dad, yeah, my dad, my dad's family, um, was protestant is my dad. My dad is really fascinating. He's like deeply, uh, I mean, I guess he's religious or spiritual. I say faith instead of religious because I think religion is kind of gross. I know. And faith is kind of awesome. Well, I think, I think, yeah, I mean, I think if I were to categorize him, I would say he has a lot of faith, but he, he definitely sees it through the lens of Christianity. Yeah. He's like, he prides himself in the fact that he's read the Bible like 20 times. Right. He has his own interpretation of it and I like, I love that about him. I believe the Bible and I do whatever the hell I want. Well, it's not like that. He's like, here's what I believe the Bible is saying. Right, right. Um, he's like, I don't believe I have to go to church in order to believe in God and worship God and have faith and gratitude and Well, that's the religious stuff, kind of, to some extent. So it's kind of, it's quite beautiful and sweet and But that wasn't, hasn't become your faith? No, I just, uh, you know, uh It was the, my, well my mom, uh, so I'm part Greek, my mom comes from kind of a Greek, Greek Orthodox background more. So we did that for a little while, that was interesting. That wasn't her jam either, but she was, yeah she tried. And I tried the Christian thing. I'm part Greek too, actually. Oh, cool. My, uh, my dad's My grandfather was adopted from Lutheran social services as a Greek immigrant, probably. Uh, yeah. My dad's got black hair, blue eyes, which is pretty rare among Americans, except for among the Greeks. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my grandfather was a full blooded Greek, although he was born here in the States. Okay. Um, and, uh, Yeah, it's beautiful. My mom's maiden name is Besotis. Oh, nice. Uh, and, um, yeah, so, anyway, Greek Orthodox thing we did for a little while. You checked it out a little bit. But I grew up in a tiny little town where there were more churches than there were of anything else. Yeah. Like, stoplights. Oh, interesting. So, a very Protestant, very, you know, farmer. There were a lot of Dutch folks in our community. Okay. Um, I tried. I just, I tried again and again to like, you know, Do the thing and I went to the teen youth groups and you know, I just, when I got into college, I was like, Oh God, just doesn't like, I don't, I just don't think this is the, this is not the right thing. So what, uh, like. Some of the questions I like to ask are like, is there like a creator force? Is there a conscience behind the design of the universe that said, okay, go big bang. Yeah. I mean, think of myself, I think loosely as an agnostic. I'm definitely not an atheist. I don't, you're not here to say Jesus never existed or, well, I don't know. I mean, I think it's a, it's a sweet bit of mythology, you know, whether he was a person or not maybe, but, um, Yeah. I don't really, I don't really buy into all that. I do think there is a energy, there is a, there's some kind of universal force. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I just think there is no possible way. We know all the answers. Right. I agree with that. And I also think when you die, like your current consciousness just dissipates, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, I do. I mean, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about this honestly. Because I'm focused on like just living well, you know, and and but why like why don't you just feel because it feels good Okay. Yeah, so that's that kind of nervous system response feels feels good to be good feels good to love Where do we get a conscience from do you suppose is that internally created or is it externally? Uh, I don't know. I mean, I think consciousness comes from your physiology. Well, not consciousness, but conscience. Oh, conscience. Oh yeah. Like, is that from inside you or is it almost external? I kind of think it's like ancestral. I think it's like passed down. There's a rightness and, um, and, uh, Like do no harm thing that is passed down. Like I've, you were one of the episodes I listened to, you were talking about previous guests and you were saying, saying something about like people are inherently good. Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think that, I think people are just doing the best they can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He said most people are trying to do the best they can most of the time or something like that. Yeah. You know, so I, I kind of, I believe in that and I, I don't know if that's true. I'm a slacker ass a lot of times. You what? I'm a slacker. Like I'm not doing the best I can most of the time, I'm doing the best I can some of Well, I think this is such an interesting conversation that we definitely do not have time for. Yeah, we got to cruise. I don't want to rush us, but I think it's like, um, But are you though, like, are there factors at play that are preventing you from taking a particular kind of action? Or are you literally just saying like, I could actually be a good person or I can be a total shit and so I'm gonna choose to be a total shit? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Um, And I've, you know, to quickly go back to the moment, like they say, our, our, our brains kind of logically justify doing the things that we feel like doing. Yeah, well, that's a thinking, when you're always just thinking about a thing, right? Yeah, I don't know. I wish we had two more hours. I know. All right, politics. Uh, good that the would be assassin, uh, shot. Were he shot or could have just as soon popped him? Oh, gosh, sorry. I shouldn't put a question like that. Yeah, rude. Yeah. Well, not, I don't know. So let me, let me tell you that it was pretty crazy though. Right? Like, I bet everybody's going to remember where they were when they heard that Trump got an assassination attempt. Well, I will just be really transparent and say, it's, it's just, it's definitely a thought I have had, like, if somebody would just take care of this, then we move. Oh, I get it. I mean, I don't actually want I shared that thought with my dad last spring, and he'll almost certainly vote for Trump. Yeah, my dad too. But he was like, it might just be the better thing, best thing for our country if that crazy fucker was killed. I wish we had DeSantis in there or somebody less crazy. I know. I know. I get it. I, I have had Although we don't want to set a precedence like that, I think. No, God, no. And we also just don't want to advocate for killing people we don't like. Right. Exactly. Well, and so there's a question for you in the political realm, then. There's a lot of narrative being generated by the Republicans right now, especially like, hey, um, just so you know, you guys calling Donald Trump Hitler and an existential threat to this democracy every day, a hundred times a day, it has consequences. Yes, it's true. It's true. And, um, how do you feel about that? Well, I just think it's all just so fucked up. I mean, honestly, it's like, uh, I heard Max say in the, in the interview with you, like the thing I really think something I believe strongly is that words matter and it just, it just, you know, just keeps taking root, you know? And we, we are fearful. Yeah, we, we are fearful. I mean, not to keep, keep respond, you know, going back to the nervous system, but we all respond differently when we're afraid, you know, and it's unreasonable and irrational and you're trying to make sense out of something that you just, I think, cannot make sense out of, you know, do you think, uh, Trump derangement syndrome is real? Oh, I've not heard of that. Oh, that's like when people get almost like visibly like orange man bad to the extent that they couldn't even accept that he might be not Hitler. Hmm. I mean, I think anything is possible and people are having incredibly strong responses. Huge traumatic responses. Yes. In both in general. Yeah. They're either like, he's the fucking God or he's the fucking devil. Right. I mean, really, it's so interesting. And I am much like Max, which is why we're partners. I just try to, mitigate my exposure. I, I lean into people that I trust to like help me interpret things I don't understand that are too politically complex. I try to make wise decisions based on the information that I have. I don't want Trump to be president, but I think he might be. And so it seems likely, you know, at this point, you know, I just, I'm like, well, what, okay. So if that's, if, if that's a possible outcome, even possible, what can I do right here, right now for myself, for my family, for my community to like stabilize. And, and keep doing, like, just keep being a good human. Keep doing good work. Well, it probably won't affect your day to day life very much. No, but it's going to affect my kids and their kids and, you know, that's a thing I, I am thinking about and I still just always come back to my number one, the, the place that I can make the most impact is by raising beautiful children. I'll do one more question in politics and then I'll move on. Okay. That debate with Biden kind of almost proved that he should be a dementia care facility instead of the president right now. Such a bummer. Why do you think, like, I don't, like, they're all pretending, oh, we just found out kind of, but they didn't just found out. Like, there's a whole lot of people that knew that he was, losing his capacity Mojo way before. Like, why did the Democrats run him instead of letting kind of a normal democratic nomination process run out? That is a good fucking question. Like they blackballed Kennedy out of the democratic process. Basically. Yeah, which is crazy. Right. Yeah. So why did they do that? Like, this just doesn't make any sense. Because they'd like to have a dementia patient as the president? Is that, that's kind of what I've come to believe is that they kind of like having somebody very moldable. And I don't know who the president is. Is it Jill? Is it Barack Obama? Is it his cabinet? But the cabinet says they haven't met with him for months, nine months since he met with any of his cabinet members. Yeah, so you're, you're, you're propositioning this idea that maybe it's because he's more malleable. Right. Yeah. I would like to have a robot of sorts. I mean, I am very undereducated in the realm of politics, but to me that makes a lot of sense. I mean, why wouldn't you want to have a puppet? But whose puppet is he? Like, that's the scary thing to me about, frankly, where the Democrats, like, I get, I get the Trump thing and whatever, but also the, the process by which the Democrats came to nominate Joe Biden to be the president for four more years terrifies me. Yeah, it's pretty, yeah. I mean, I wish I knew. Right. What that was. I wish I knew. Who were the deciders? Yeah. I mean, none of it, honestly, just none of it makes sense. Totally. I, I just, you know, I just. It's a shitstorm. I keep just like, I, I. It's a flaming dumpster fire. Yeah. And best if we just look away and I, I like go in because I want to be informed, but then I step right back out because I'm like, I don't know how to make sense of this. Like, I gotta just work to make sense out of what I can touch and what I can see. So, uh, you're going from here to a party. Yes, we're having a party. Tell me. Yeah, so Max is so sweet. So this is the fourth year and he's been throwing a party for me and our friend Mike McDonald. We share very close birthdays. And this year we've added our friend Allison, whose birthday is like in between the two of us. Nice. Nice. He hosts this beautiful backyard party and we potluck and we have a great time and we drink bourbon and I like it. It's really great. Yeah, it's so sweet. I love my life here, I, I'm glad. Yeah. I'm really glad. Yeah. Um, so last question. The Loco experience. Yeah. I've been thinking about this, this experience. I'm sure. I mean, I think. I think it just has been like being, gosh, I don't really know how to articulate this well. Uh, the craziest thing that has happened that has been rooted here has been Max's accident. Yeah, sure. I mean, that's both that it happened here on, you know, Taft, like I can drive by the place and know when it happened. I can being here and driving to PCH and doing all the things for so many months. It really anchored me here. I mean, this, this place is the place where it happened. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's the craziest thing. Right. Almost like a magnet that sucked you. You kind of had the option of being a part of this Northern Colorado region before that, but yeah, after that you're like part of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and also just the, the way and the level on which I got to know people and, and really love people. Know and trust the community that he is a part of or the communities that he's a part of. So many people fucking love him. Totally. Really, uh, incredible. So that's crazy too. Like, this, this is crazy. The community that radiates out of him is something that I have never experienced before. So that's kind of crazy too. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Um, well, I guess tell listeners how to find the, uh, embodied, what was it? Embodied Business Institute. Business Institute. I'm sorry. You gotta fucking simplify. No, it's been, and by the way, this has been like, I don't go 90, wait, no, 105 minutes. We pretty much went on nonstop, mostly just me learning about. stuff you know about. So thanks for that. Oh, you're so welcome. I love talking about it. I'd love nerdy now. I get really excited about it. Um, so thanks for the platform and the opportunity. It's nice to be on the other end of the podcasting platform. Um, yeah, the Embodied Business Institute. You can find us, that's our like URL. You can find us on, you know, we have a website. Yeah, yeah. Um, You can find me, Chantel Lopez, yeah, on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and, uh, find out about the cool shit I'm doing. And podcast now too? We sure do. Okay. It's called Embodied Business Inspired Brain. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it is fucking cool. It is not two hours long an episode or two and a half. Oh my God. You got to go set up for a party. If you're still listening, you are a fucking trooper. Our episodes are 30 minutes. Check it out. It's Embodied Business Inspired Brain. It's really cool shit. Thanks, Chantel. I think you're cool shit. You're welcome. See you next time. Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye.
