EXPERIENCE 182 | Drink with Your Dog - Every Dog Owner Should Listen! - Training Dogs Since 10 Years Old! with Amber Quann, CEO and Lead Dog Trainer at Summit Dog Training in Fort Collins

Amber Quann joined me in the studio this week to share her business journey, which started at the age of 13 after she’d built notoriety since she was 10 by winning many local and regional competitions in the 4 H community for her dog training skills!  Several neighbors and family friends got puppies around the same time, and so Amber started group training lessons in her front yard!  She’s been training dogs ever since, eventually founding Summit Dog Training 9 years ago - and in the last few years she’s scaled the business, built a training team with specialization, and recently moved to a larger location with property!  

We talk a lot about Tucker in this one - my 11-year-old Schnocker - and Amber shares abundantly with me and our listeners about how dogs (and people) think and learn, and especially about how to create better behavior for your dog - even as a self-implementor.  Don’t teach your dog not to bark when there’s a knock on the door, for example - that’s really hard.  Instead, teach them to go sit on their sleeping pad and be ready for an introduction. Give them something to do - not something not to do.  

A propellant to Summit’s recent growth has been her “Drink with Your Dog” training program, which brought Amber to national attention - DWYD is a program centered around creating dog-friendly breweries, and brewery friendly dogs.  The growth of the business has required Amber to spend less time training dogs, and more time working on the business and becoming a capable CEO.  We talk a lot about that journey, her hopes and plans for the future, and about those who’ve been a part of her journey so far.  She’s perhaps the most smarty-pants about dogs person I’ve ever met, you’ll learn a lot and love her personality, so please enjoy my conversation with Amber Quann.  

The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/

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Music By: A Brother's Fountain

Transcript

0:41

Amber Kwan joined me in the studio this week to share her business journey, which started at the age of 13, after she'd built notoriety since she was 10 by winning many local and regional competitions in the 4 H community for her dog training skills. Several neighbors and family friends got puppies around the same time, and so Amber started group training lessons in her front yard. She's been training dogs ever since, eventually founding Summit Dog Training nine years ago. And in the last few years, she's scaled the business, built a training team with specialization, and recently moved to a larger location with property. We talk a lot about Tucker in this one, my 11 year old schnocker. And Amber shares abundantly with me and our listeners about how dogs, and people, think and learn together. and especially how to create better behavior for your dog, even as a self implementer. Don't teach your dog not to bark when there's a knock on the door, for example. That's really hard. Instead, teach them to go sit on their sleeping pad and be ready for an introduction. Give them something to do, not something not to do. A propellant to Summit's recent growth has been her Drink With Your Dog training program, which brought Amber to national attention. DWYD is a program centered around creating dog friendly breweries and brewery friendly dogs. The growth of the business has required Amber to spend less time training dogs and more time working on the business and becoming a capable CEO. We talk a lot about that journey. Her hopes and plans for the future and about those who've been a part of her journey so far. She's perhaps the most smarty pants about dogs person I've ever met. You'll learn a lot and love her personality. So please enjoy my conversation with Amber Kwan. welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guest today is Amber Kwan and Amber is the CEO and lead dog trainer at Summit Dog Training. Welcome Amber. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Um, so I guess, uh, tell me about dog training. Like how did you get into the sport? It's not a sport really. The profession, the profession actually comes back to, uh, dog sports as my origin story. I, uh, was. the typical ten year old and really wanted a dog and my parents gave the proverbial answer of you can have a dog if you you know do the work to take the dog to training class be responsible and as a Overachieving ten year old I said absolutely and got a pound puppy Ended up at a local dog training class and loved it so much that I joined a 4 H dog club Shortly thereafter and um, It's like, I, I, I came to California, uh, to play a little bit. I really wanted to, uh, I, I, I wanted to, I wanted to, I, I, I, I wanted to learn, I, I wanted to learn how to be a, uh, a, Uh, this was before any sort of DNA testing for dogs was, uh, standard. So we just called her Heinz 57, like all American, but she was wonderful. She put up with a lot of, um, mistakes that I made as a 10 year old, uh, learning how to be a dog trainer. And was just a wonderful family dog and she lived to be, I want to say 14 and, uh, was just like a really great starter dog. One of those dogs that, uh, comes around once in a lifetime, uh, as far as how easy they, um, were temperament wise and, uh, makes you feel like you weren't the best trainer ever, but she responded very well to it. Absolutely. She was a great, um, a great, uh, And did you like win prizes and blue ribbons and stuff like that? I'm pretty sure there's still a box of ribbons in my parents attic somewhere. And how long did this go on? Like you, like all through middle school, high school even? So I, uh, really quickly caught the bug. I was, uh, competing with my dogs at a high level by, you know, age 12, 13, high level for like 4 H in the area. Um, and at age 13, I had enough family friends who knew I was so into dogs, uh, and got puppies all around the same time. And so then they were like, well, Amber knows about dogs. Uh, could you teach us how to raise, you know, our new family member? And so I started teaching my first group training classes at age 13, uh, for our family friends in my parents front yard. And then I was also involved in that 4 H dog club through. Um, through graduation from high school and then I was a, um, I came back as a volunteer for, um, for the duration of time. So you've been, like, ever since that 10 year old pound puppy, like, right up in it. Yes. I often joke that I have been working, since I've been working in my career field for, you know, over 20 years at this point, I joke that I'm like, Oh, wow. Uh, overdue for a midlife crisis, you know, pretty much every day. It doesn't seem like you're not having fun to me. It's definitely been a learning experience, finding, uh, like renewed passions in the industry. Like, especially over the last few years as my business has really taken off and now I'm doing different things. Less training, uh, more managing of people and Uh, client engagement, I imagine, but less actual hands on dogs, I suspect. Although you want to keep your craft good. I do, yes. So talk to me about, oh sorry, uh, talk to me about Summit, like, uh, you had an expansion or you were in the midst of that or had just relocated when we first met? Yes. So, Summit has been in Fort Collins for a couple of years. almost nine years now. Okay. And we just relocated to a beautiful new facility. We had kind of been outgrowing our previous location for a while and just looking for the right spot to, um, move, you know, our operations to. So we purchased a, um, one acre, Piece of property in Fort Collins in April and then has spent the last four and a half months renovating, building out the facilities for what we need for our dog training operations. And we had our grand opening event on, um, In the middle of July, and it was a huge success. Our clients were so excited about all the work we've been putting in. And so now we're just kind of like settling in there and, um, and just back to training dogs. I noticed you mentioned, uh, it was a one acre facility. Does that mean there's a lot of like outdoor space and stuff too? Yes, so excited about our outdoor space is a big portion of our brand and passion is getting folks out doing things with their dogs. And we have always had classes out and about around town. And we still do, but we didn't have any outdoor space at our last school. location. We just had an indoor classroom spaces. And so we could take dogs out for a leash walks and stuff around the neighborhood, but no like sniff areas really, no off leash areas. So now we do have that. We have. a whole acre that has just two buildings on it. And we're, uh, some of it is fenced already and then we're working on getting the rest of it fenced so that we have a really large, um, outdoor play and learn space for our dogs. Um, my, my little dog, like he's, he's 11 or so now, but when we first got him, like he would have been excellent at the agility dogs and those, could you tell Train dogs to do that? Or will you build one of those eventually? Absolutely. So we had I want one. I just like watching dogs do that. Right? It's so fun. All right. We had One of our team members was offering agility that we were renting from a space from someone else to offer those classes. And that was, we're so fun. Now we, she has her own space and we refer to her. So we bring her in for some of the intro classes and so we'll continue doing that. We have, now we have a big outdoor space that we can do. And then we're also going to be bringing back, um, hopefully next year. We used to offer these classes called dog parkour, which is like agility, but more urban focused Okay, so using obstacles that you would find on your normal wall Oh, yeah, and teaching your dog how to navigate those safely and successfully and so those were we love doing those It's it's really fun been a few years since we've offered those classes. And so I'm really excited to build a parkour obstacle course that will probably be like early next year. One of the projects that we, um, uh, reveal. Talk to me about the, the building infrastructure, like, and the team a little bit too, as, as you would, but, uh, like, what do you need to really have a great training facility in those buildings? Yeah. So for what we need, we needed. a, um, a large classroom space. You need, um, uh, enough space to because you're teaching people really more than you're teaching dogs. Right. I mean, both, right, right. You need, uh, both your human learners and your dog learners to be set up for success. And so we have now a 2, 100 square foot warehouse building. Um, and a key component for us is we needed good flooring, um, to help, uh, make sure that there's. It's not overwhelming amounts of noise and like barking, echoing, and then also to make sure that the surface is, um, not slippery for our dogs. Yeah. Polished concrete is like super clicky and slippery and nobody's having any fun. Clean's easy. Right. But also it can absorb, um, water and pee and things into the concrete if it's not sealed properly. So, uh, the floor of the warehouse, when we first moved in was, Concrete. It had not been sealed recently. And so we just, um, at the beginning of July, finished installing a really nice rubber floor. So it's, it's sealed. It's, um, water resistant is, um, cleanable easily. And it also is grippy and it helps cut down on some of the echoing, um, noises. It's probably even padded a little bit in comparison to concrete, at least less knee problems and whatnot for you guys and the dogs. It's much more comfortable to stand on And how many, like, uh, in the classroom? Like, can you do like 20 learners at a time or 10? So when we're having humans and dogs together, we really, um, like to focus on, um, a quality of experience for the dogs and their people. So we have, uh, in our previous space. We were, had slightly smaller classes. We're, now that we're getting settled into the new space, gonna have classes of six to eight dogs, depending on the, um, topic that we're covering. Um, obviously if we're doing something that requires a little bit more support, we will have lower numbers or have, uh, multiple instructors. Sure. Uh, but that's, That's a very hands on, very intimate kind of thing. Yeah, it's a big difference than other, um, Um, petco or something where you might be one of 12 to 15 dogs in a class. Um, can we talk about, Oh, let's talk about your team a little bit. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, well, where do you find dog trainers? Oh my goodness. So I love my team. They're wonderful. And they help so many dogs. Uh, and we. are really selective, uh, in who we hire because we're not just looking for great dog trainers. We're also looking for great people, instructors and great people, people. So, um, I'm really, uh, picky when it comes to who I add to my team because I really want them to be, um, kind. We have a set of core values that all of our team members hold to, but number one on the list is a kind communication. And that is something that's really hard to teach humans. Um, but it's such a core value to us that we would rather hire someone who has excellent teaching skills for people. And then, um, And then work on developing their dog skills because that's, uh, the people interactions are the core of everything that we do. Our clients are Yes, we, we care so much about the dogs, but the human components of those teams are a big, um, big factor in how we train. We want them to have a great experience and to get what they need, the humans need out of, out of the equation. So, uh, if there was a generic human tied to a train track and a generic dog tied to a train track and you had the power to flip the switch, uh, Would you have a choice there? Like which one would I save? Would you? Yeah, that's an impossible choice. I won't ask it though. That's an impossible question. I mean, obviously human life is, uh, you know, Trump's everything. So yeah, that's right. That's actually out of the blue. Do you have anybody, um, aside from trainers, do you have anybody that helps you like manage the business business? Right. Cause I imagine that's the. The customer delivery is one thing and then it's like. The billing and all the website things, whatever. Absolutely. I have, um, two awesome admin team members. We have a, an office manager who handles, um, a good portion of our like administrative tasks, everything from talking to new clients, getting, um, uh, clients, uh, Connected with the services they need, handling, um, enrollments, handling, um, you know, phone calls, emails, all of the volume of client communication that we get on a daily basis. And he is fantastic. And, um, our clients love him. Our staff loves him. And then you can shout him out by name if you want to. Nick, Nick, you're fantastic. Nick's also a great rapper. And so he's, uh, he's always out there. Um, play in local shows, and, uh, we love supporting him. Does he get to, to bop around, or play some tunes at the, at the facility sometimes, or is it a little quieter? We haven't done that yet, but that's a, we should do that, um, but we have been using You're welcome, Nick. Yeah, we've been, uh, using some of his music on some of our social media posts and things, so that's always fun. Um, uh, do you, does he go by a stage name or anything? Um, he's a part of a duo, um, I and Team. Team. Okay. Um, so they're, uh, and then I think he has, he has solo projects as well, but, um, they often open for local, um, uh, they're, you know, part of the local music scene. Yeah. Other traveling rappers coming through might have them open for them. And they, uh, big part of the, um, I don't know, we, we just always love going and seeing their shows. They're so fun. They're like fantastic. They played focal MX the last few years. They're yeah. Just like, you know, Always a great time. Do it right. Yeah. So, Nyx, uh, keeps us in line, keeps us, uh, And then, um, we also have a special projects manager who kind of does everything from our social media to our, um, curriculum projects to, uh, she runs our marketing events. So if you see, um, a summit booth at one of the many dog events around town, you might run into Taylor and she's, um, Just a great face of the business and keeps keeps me in line on so many Projects so her her title is special project when you think of things then she does it for you. Is that kind of what I'm hearing? Things that I can pass off then absolutely she'll execute on them dig it and then as is all also coming up with ideas and and helping Implement our team members ideas as well. Like if someone's like, I want to do this, the first one they, um, should loop in is Taylor because she'll help get that rolling. Dig it. Um, well, how would, how would you describe your job? Uh, aside from, you know, HR, finance, everything under the sun. So it's changed a lot in the last couple of years and I'm still kind of trying to figure out where, um, what it's going to look like in another two years, but I Three years ago, I was teaching, um, probably 25 hours of client facing, uh, work a week plus managing the business and I was extremely burnt out. I, you know, was working 60 hours a week, uh, on the regular and, uh, Um, not executing on any of the things, you know, The special projects manager came on for a reason because I wasn't getting the special projects done. Exactly. So then I kind of gave myself this mindset shift of like, okay, my, my responsibility is more directing the business as a whole and, um, empowering my team, uh, and continuing to train because I do still care about that. But now I teach, um, seven to 10 hours a week. And then the rest of my time is, um, team management, hiring, um, plans, uh, special projects, like planning. Like right now, I, um, a big thing on my plate is I am speaking in March at one of our industry's biggest conferences. And, um, I'm presenting two discussion, or two learning labs at that, uh, event. Okay. And so, a big part of my Next few months is going to be curating the content for that, working on that. And so I'm thinking about my role as like, not just How can I, um, you know, support dogs and dog trainers here locally, but how can I support dogs, um, around the world through, you know, bringing education that, um, to that stage. Why did they choose you? I mean, I'm sure there was like a process of application and stuff, but you must have developed some sort of special sauce or something that people want to hear more about. Well, I have, um, this project called drink with your dog. That's a kind of, uh, um, become a national project. I have, uh, it's a, it's a, uh, multifaceted project, but it is geared to teaching here locally. It's teaching dog owners how to go into breweries successfully. And then we had so much interest in that class concept that I just made a course for dog trainers. So I have like almost a hundred dog trainers around the country that have taken my course on how to implement these types of classes in their, uh, programs. And so as part of that, Uh, this organization that, uh, I'll be speaking at their conference in, um, next year, like had me come on and teach some, um, four week courses for, um, for their students. So I did, uh, two years of teaching for them in a kind of a different format and through that I think, uh, they just, they were able to, yeah, able to see the, um, the ways that my. So is this content on the brewery thing or is this more like you? So the classes that I taught for them the four week were, uh, focused on the brewery manners piece. Okay. And then the topic presentations are the topics of the presentations I'm giving in, uh, the conference format are going to be like really kind of small subsets of that. It's going to be, uh, like we're going to talk, uh, one of the topics is on polite greetings, uh, people and some different ways to think about that. And then the other, uh, topic is on relaxation in public for our dogs. So, uh, we work on both of those topics in under the umbrella of our brewery manners in a very specific way for those environments. And so this conference, I'm just kind of pulling out little bite sized pieces of those basically, which are. useful beyond breweries. Absolutely. As well. And the, I often say the drink with your dog project, like kind of gained momentum and, uh, enthusiasm. Made you semi famous. Right. Because of this, uh, really big emphasis on breweries in this area, but those skills, I use them every day with my dog, whether I'm going to a brewery or not. And so they're applicable, you know, across all, all needs. How do you, uh, how do you feel about giving your dog, actual beer. I mean, they do make beer for dogs. I'm sure it's not alcoholic. No, it's not. It's, it's like usually just, it's a really beer for dogs, for humans. It's like, uh, um, it's a, uh, beer shaped bottle. That's usually like chicken broth or something like that. So it just like, it makes you feel like you're giving your dog a beer. Um, generally I, you discourage folks from sharing large portions of their alcoholic beverages. I've actually accidentally, uh, my dog got a small piece of marijuana edible one time and it knocked him out for a while. Yeah. Yeah. I know he was, he was, he was out for a half a day, you know, like turn the lights off. Yeah. Just chill dude. You're fine. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which shame on me. And if that's a felony, then I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to, I put it on the, put Couch arm for Paul, not for Tucker. Um. Our dogs don't, uh, sometimes they're not aware of the, have some self destructive behaviors, just like humans. For sure. I have a, so, uh, Tucker is my little dog and he's a miniature schnauzer and Cocker Spaniel. Awesome. He is a very adorable. Like all shagged out right now, but then he's getting his crew cut here soon. Um, he's got one interesting quirk. I'm just going to ask about my own dog's quirks in here, but, um, so he, he's very friendly, um, not intimidated by big dogs and stuff, but nobody sniffs Tucker's butt. Like if somebody tries to sniff Tucker's butt, as soon as he detects them there, then he spends a 180 and faces up to him. And some dogs consider that kind of. And, and, but for Tucker, he's just like, nope, nobody, nobody sniffs my butt. Do you know what's going on there? Is he sensitive or is there, there can be a lot of things going on. Is this something that's been, he's had, uh, this tendency his whole life. Yeah. It's developed more recently. No, ever since we got him, he's 11 now and we got him at almost one. Um, he did have. He hadn't been fixed yet when we got him and he had like an undescended testicle. So it was like an expensive neuter. Yeah, sure. Um, so I don't know if there was maybe some pain there for a season of life or something. He hasn't ever like grab him in that region and it doesn't like doesn't appear to be any pain things. Well, and whenever we see our dogs doing something that obviously has, you know, a long standing pattern, I always like to think about like why, um, or the ways that. Our dogs learn early on in life or don't learn. Um, I mean, nobody sniffs my butt either. And so maybe he just learned it from me, right? There's some default dog behaviors. Like generally that's a generally a more dog behavior than a human behavior. So, um, but they can learn on, uh, early on that. something may not be comfortable. Like, who knows, you know, in that first year of life, maybe there weren't, um, opportunities for him to rehearse that. Um, and it could have been no opportunities. It could also have been, you know, a few dogs that he was exposed to early on sniffed and then jumped on him. Um, and he learned early on that that was an uncomfortable experience. Um, and so unfortunately when we don't. We can't ask our dogs, like, what was in your history that made you uncomfortable? We can see that they are uncomfortable with something and if it is something that's causing challenges like in my line of work when we have a dog that's like really socially awkward and gets aggressive in some fashion or whatever, uh, you know, kind of escalate. It's not, doesn't sound like he's escalating his behavior there, but, um, we may work on teaching a dog how to stand comfortably while another dog comes up and sniff him. And typically that's going to, we're going to start doing that on either side of a, barrier so that the dog feels comfortable, uh, if it's not something they're normally comfortable with. So like having a fence and we'll teach them to put their butt up against the fence and then, um, have another calm dog come and sniff and let the dog that's nervous about it. Um, move away in a kind of more natural way. But then reward them when they allow the sniff kind of thing, is that right? Yep. Interesting. I was just working with a dog this morning, um, and I used my dog as, um, a helper dog cause the, uh, my student dog is very nervous around new dogs. And, um, I have taught my dog to stand and stay. while another dog comes up and sniffs him. So, uh, this dog who's very fearful about meeting other dogs was able to come up and sniff my dog and get information about him. Um, and my dog had a trained, like stand there and let, let this dog sniff, um, that allowed that dog to practice confidently coming up and sniffing without, uh, having a dog that, you know, was not comfortable with it. Kind of grow confidence just that it's okay if I go sniff somebody, they're not going to like. Chew on my face. Right. Exactly. What do you think? Um, Are the drivers it's insecurity mostly right like that causes dogs to get aggressive in a like a dog park setting Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of different factors, but I think it really depends on the type of Some dogs are bullies, right? A lot of it. It comes down to kind of emotional regulation that wasn't, the dog wasn't given an opportunity to learn early on. So we work with our students a lot on how to Take deep breaths and how to go and sniff something when they're feeling big feelings, or how to walk away when they're feeling big feelings, and how to emotionally regulate. And that's something that especially dogs that have been going That the dog park is maybe one of their primary sources of socialization is they're learning from other dogs who might also be reactionary. So instead of learning like, okay, when we have big feelings, we all just take a breath and we walk away. They're learning like, okay, when we have big feelings, we all bark at each other and we like escalate things. Right, right. It's kind of like a, Um, you know, yeah, it's, it's behavior of crowds and whatever else. Right. So it's really, each dog is gonna want a different thing from the dog park or, or similar setting. And so understanding how to support our dogs in those environments, we could talk about that for, you know, hours just on that, that one, I have one more, uh, interesting Tucker So it maybe happened like at least five or six times at a dog park where, where a big dog was picking on a less big, but still twice as big as Tucker kind of dog. And Tucker charges in and like, slams his, he turns his head. So he's not bitey, but he slams his body into the side of the aggressor dog. Like he's a justice enforcer. Like, Hey, you can't pick on this other dog, even though that dog's a stranger. Um, and it's totally fascinating to see as the owner. You're like, dude, what are you doing? Um, so is that, I mean, it's hard to speculate, of course, but it seems probably trauma informed as well. Like maybe he got picked on as a little guy or something like that. I don't know. I think it's hard to describe why he would do that. Right. I think as humans, we like to come up with human centric reasons for why that's what He is a human as far as he's concerned, Amber. Um, and so we often, as much as I value our dogs is like really, um, key contributors to our family dynamics. Uh, we often think about, you know, the, like I was picked on as a child, so now I'm going to react. And now that's not to say that our dogs can't have learned experiences that inform how they behave today. That is absolutely 100 percent the case. Um, it has probably more to do with like, The dog has a history of like when I see something about to go down. I need to react in this way Yeah, this way However, I react is what makes me feel safe or makes me feel like I'm in control And so you might have some dogs that have learned from an early age Like if I feel uncomfortable I butt in in front of the dragon. Yeah, that makes me feel. Yeah Yeah, say if you have other dogs who have learned like I react with barking and lunging and that's what makes me feel Yeah, or you have you know other dogs that have learned If I sense conflict, I run away and I go away and that's what they, so it's, Well, uh, not to interrupt, but, uh, Tucker's cousin, my, my brother in law's dog is Marshall and he's a cockapoo with the same coloring. So they're Marshall Tucker together. Um, and he's a, He's very poodley and he like literally will bark, bark, bark, and then hide when anything goes down. So it's just an interesting dichotomy. They look the same, almost these two dogs, but they behave so much different. Absolutely. And you also have to think. To what our dogs were bred for as well. Mm-Hmm. So when you have, um, yours is a, a schnauzer. A schnauzer and a cocker. Okay. Yeah. So, and the other one's a cocka, poo poodle and a cocker. Sure. So I, what I know about Schnauzers is they are, um, like pretty tough little dogs. Oh yeah. They're, um, bred, they go into holes and dry badges out into like some, right. Something's going down and our first reaction is to get in there. Oh, sure. So, like, uh, that's, you know, genetically totally. Like, what, what that. Genetic profiles telling him to do right and probably reinforced by his learned experiences over many many years We're like the dog of royalty. There's like princess. Don't you dare go down that hole? But different not in the holes they're going after the birds or they're going after right in the in the water they're gonna swim it and get the the Carcass, that's a very different It's Uh, genetic makeup then go into the hole and grab out whatever that thing is in there. Yeah, good point. That's really fascinating. Isn't it fascinating how much variety has been created? Absolutely. I mean, just as much variety as like humans have needs and interests. For sure. Well, and, and when I have a controversial statement, I said this at a party one time I've been drinking too much, but that it was a shame that we hadn't put the same diversity into our intentional breeding of humans. We could have little Chihuahua size, good stuff from under the couch people. We could have like literally 20 feet tall people probably, like we probably could. Um, although it would make car manufacturing really complicated. Yes. Couches would be lots of different sizes. Yeah, and there, I mean, it's interesting, you'd have to go ask, you know, folks that study genetics and study the, um. The human genome. Right, and figure out what amount of variety, like, was even, you know. like possible. Well, weren't all dogs from wolves pretty much originally? I mean, there is, I thought that was the theory. So there's also other canid species as well, like foxes and, um, uh, coyotes and, but chihuahuas and mastiffs can breed. Yes. You know, by some crazy thing, usually IV, I suspect these days. Yeah. Yes. But, uh, at some, yeah, there's just been, you know, selective. breeding and, uh, intentional selection by humans, but also just evolutionary selection by humans. Like as, as dogs have evolved. Sure. What do they want them to do? What do they want them to do? But also like which dogs survive the most? Like, Um, early social ability with humans was genetic, uh, was evolutionarily reinforced by like, you know, those, uh, those dogs that hung out by the trash heap were more likely to get, you know, human handouts if they were friendly with the humans than not, like, so that's like, you're not friendly. Then you get shot with a bow and arrow, right? So you have the, the micro evolution piece, uh, and so. and then more humans get involved and then start to do the intentional selection, you know, over many hundreds of years to get where we are today. Can we, uh, can we like do some giveaways, like some train your own dog, some principles, things, whatever, three or five things or something, even though that, you know, you probably won't make as much progress as if you signed up for some classes, but, uh, like just out of curiosity, like, like when you were that. 10, 11 year old or whatever, 12 year old. Like what were those foundational things? Where did you learn it? Like, did you go to the library? We didn't have, do we have internet? You, yeah, you're, we did, but you're younger than me, but yeah, yeah. Um, I would say so like the biggest thing that I can, um, tell any person at any point when they're trying to change the dog's behavior is, um, step number one is really Uh, learning how your dog communicates. Because, When we're thinking about changing their behavior, we first have to understand that for dogs, their behavior is how they communicate. And there, if we're going to change that behavior, let's say, you know, change that our dogs are barking out the window at the mailman. And we want to change that. We have to understand like, this is the dog communicating about something that they're feeling. Hey, the mailman's here. Mailman's here. Mailman's here. Right. And so if we understand how our dogs are communicating, and then, um, we also have to, really understand like how our dogs communicate, um, pleasure, discomfort, stress, uh, because some of the things that we as humans interpret as misbehavior, uh, or like disobedience are actually our dogs telling us that they're stressed. in different situations. And so if we are just focused on, you know, my dog's not listening when I tell it to sit, but we haven't really zoomed out a little bit to say my dog is uncomfortable in this situation. So if I'm really, you know, trying to enforce a sit or a down stay, but not really addressing the fact that my dog is feeling for strangers here that he hasn't been allowed to sniff yet or whatever, I am not really, Helping the dog feel more comfortable about the situation, which is what is going to help the dog be more obedient to those cues. So really understand, uh, our dog's behavior. There are a lot of great resources out there on dog body language. Um, that is their dog body language for dummies. I'm sure there is. Um, and we have, we have, uh, like a, just a foundational webinar going over that, that we give to our students that, um, really, because that is the foundational piece of learning. Um, so then kind of like one step beyond that, once we understand our dog's behavior and we understand that our dog's behavior is functional, they're doing it for some reason, then understanding how to change behavior. And this, uh, is where. We really want to be thinking about like, what do we want our dogs to be doing in these situations? Like, uh, if your dog is, let's say jumping on guests as they come in the front door, a lot of people call us and they're focusing on like, I need my dog to stop jumping. And so our first question to them is always, uh, after. After we ask, can you tell us, you know, what it looks like and what, what the context is. Our next question is always, well, what do you want your dog to be doing in that situation? Because when we think about what we want, it's a lot easier to teach the dog to do what we want to do versus just focusing on what we want the dog to stop doing. Interesting. And some people might want them to. Sniff a hand to lay quietly in the corner and ignore the guests whatever that looks like and oh, that's so interesting If I have to substitute something right I can give up smoking if you put exercise in there instead Exactly if I just yelled at you every time you picked up a cigarette Right. But didn't give you something else to do. Right. Instead, and didn't, like, give you other behaviors that could be reinforced. Right. Or other things. Well, fine, I'll just snort a line of cocaine then. Right, exactly. You're going to find other things to That's also destructive. Right. To do. And so, the absence of behavior is not realistic picture. That's really interesting. Yeah. Oh, so it's, it's very much a goal oriented thing, not a stop this kind of thing. I think people are like that too, right? We want to think about what do we envision and now it's not like it's bad to say, like, I don't really care what my dog does if, as long as they stopped doing this, but we're going to have because that's a real place to be. Um, but. As part of getting our dogs to stop doing that, we are going to spend a decent amount of time thinking about how can we meet their needs in other ways with behaviors that are happy, uh, to us. And an example I like to use is, um, I have a small dog. Small dogs are Um, whether correctly or incorrectly, often labeled as very barky. Um, and I knew this, uh, kind of trope that, uh, and breed, breed tendency when I got my small dog. And so I made a really intentional effort. from early on in raising my puppy that I knew that barking a big function of barking. It often starts off as asking for something like I, the dog is small. A big dog might come and put their head on your lap, but a small dog might not have that as an option. And so they are going to sit there and be like, Hey, notice me. I need your attention. I want to go outside. I want to be fed. My water bowl is empty. Right. And so as a, um, uh, an early, um, training plan, I made a really clear, um, goal to reward my dog for any other way they asked for attention. Besides barking. So one, I kind of let them pick it in a way. Let them pick it. I'm just really noticing, and maybe any other way is an exaggeration, but I really started noticing, Pee on the floor. Right. There are limits, but I really tried to notice when he was asking for attention in ways that I found acceptable before he had to use his force. Come over and put your little paw on my toe. Right. Or whatever. Exactly. And one of the ways that he. He chose early on in his puppyhood was to lay on his back and kick his legs. And that was his like, please come over and give me a belly rub. And so we, I was like, okay, I like that as a, please come over and give me a belly rub rather than bark, bark, bark or, um, you know, anything else that he could come up with. So I reinforced it and anytime he offered it, I would get up from what I was doing and go and belly rub. And now he has an adult dog. He doesn't ask for that all the time, but when he wants something, often he will go and lay on his back and kick his legs. If I can provide it at that point, I do, but if I can't, I'm like, thank you, bud. I see you. I acknowledge it. I'll be over there for you in a minute. I'll be there in a minute, but he has such a long reinforcement history with asking for things that way. Yeah. He doesn't bark. He knows he gets on the cue by doing that, basically. Yeah, so people always ask like, oh, Papillon's like, I heard they're kind of barky. I'm like, well. Yeah. I, I knew that going in and so I really intentionally reinforced a lot of other things besides barking. And so he doesn't really have That's almost like cred for you. Like, yes, and I've got a puppy on that's not barking. Yes, I have a wonderful dog. He's wonderful. I mean, he still has his, his quirks and things that we work on and things that other dogs can do that he can't. And, um, but I'm really, really happy with, with him. The way that he, um, you know, integrates into it. Are you a one dog woman? I am. Um, people are often surprised by that. But, I have really high standards for my dog's behavior, and I acknowledge that it's a lot of work to train a dog to the standards that I have and not everyone has to have those high standards like that's it's just me. I want you know my dogs to integrate into my life a certain way and plenty of, um, people can do that with multiple dogs. And I just have come to realize that I really enjoy having one, one dog that is highly trained and gets a lot of specialized attention. And, um, I also, you know, have the opportunity to work with a lot of interact with a lot of, you get, you get, uh, not foster dogs per se, but at least, uh, you're, you're, Right. Right, and when I had four dogs at a time before, I lived in a very different setting than I do now. I am in a very small condo with no yard currently, and so my situation Papillon is the right thing. Right, my situation is different than when I lived on four acres and could have four dogs. you know, for dogs and happily, um, meet their needs. Is the, uh, is there other kind of foundational things that you would take somebody through? Um, so once we have kind of an understanding of behavior and, uh, body language and how dogs communicate, and then kind of an understanding of how we are looking generally about, um, meeting dogs, um, needs with behaviors that we like. I'm also going to be talking to folks about enrichment and exercise and just general health and wellbeing. So many dog behavior problems can be solved, uh, maybe not exclusively with that, but, uh, with. enrichment, mental, physical, um, enrichment and meeting our dog's needs there, as well as a really close look at health and wellness and making sure that, um, you know, nutrition is, uh, balanced as well as our dogs are, don't have any underlying health issues. Uh, many, um, times when we have. especially behavior cases come to us, um, that's the first thing that we often recommend is that they get health and wellness, uh, evaluated at their vet just to make sure there's not underlying factors there, because that can absolutely affect behavior. Pain, thyroid, um, other, other medical conditions are big. Yeah. Kidney things, whatever else. I'm, I'm just starting to think about, like, How sometimes when people come to you for dog behavior problems, probably it's owner behavior problems a lot and it's almost probably verges on abuse or neglect or things like that. Do you ever have those cases or is that not really so? No. Those people don't really turn up. Yeah. Our clients are wonderful. Okay. And uh, by and large. Seem like a weird social worker kind of thing, like child protective services almost, but no, they're, if people are, if Hiring you they're trying to do the right thing. Absolutely. Our clients are by and large like very invested in their dogs Success and well being and are coming to us with some with that at the center. Yeah certainly, there are our places where cases of Abuse or neglect But those are not typically the cases that we see well and we're we're not And Fort Collins, you know, not Albuquerque necessarily or whatever. And I think a lot of those, um, like our wonderful colleagues in shelter, um, medicine, I think are probably on the front lines of that in the way that, um, the private training companies are not as much unless they're, um, you know, putting themselves in those situations. Yeah, do they do that? I, we, we just had the Humane Society come to my Rotary Club the other day, uh, uh, to Gosh, I spaced the lady's name who I've known for 20 years, but, um, talked about the merger with Weld County Humane and stuff. I imagine they probably have some, at least Like after trauma kinds of training kind of things that they try to do with dogs to make them more adoptable. Uh, is that true? I mean, a well, uh, rounded shelter and, uh, rescue program will absolutely be, including a behavior department or behavior resources. Um, and whether every shelter is doing that is, you know, there's limits. I hadn't really thought too much about that. Right. It's like, but you can't just dump, you know, dangerous dogs into people's homes, you at least have to mitigate somewhat whatever trauma it is that's got them doing their thing. Very specialized care, I imagine, in comparison. Can you teach dogs how to do tricks and stuff too? Yeah, absolutely. So a good portion of our Uh, business is our behavior cases, our dogs that are adopted and then come to us for behavior support. But we love those, uh, clients that are come to us and are like, we just want to do fun things with our dogs. Uh, and also Trix can really support behavior, uh, programs as well because we're getting our, those dogs thinking differently about how to interact with their environment and thinking very, um, have giving them other options for how to get the outcomes they want I'll see you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So teaching a dog how to do one of our favorite tricks that most of our students learn at some point in our program is how to put two paws up on an obstacle. And this is really useful for practical purposes, especially for hiking in Colorado. Like when you're hiking. We're hiking on a narrow trail. You need to get your dog out of the way, but there's not really room to step off completely while someone comes by. We teach them to put two paws. Oh, here's this rock. Put two paws on that rock. So it keeps them from jumping up on someone that's coming by. It gives them a place to feel safe and secure out of the way. And it's also just good body awareness for navigating the trail safely. Oh yeah. I kind of want to come take that class. I mean, we teach it in a lot of different classes. It's so, um, it's so important. So that's a good example of kind of the. crossover between like a trick behavior and, um, a practical life skill. And we also then find it's really something our reactive dogs really like to do as well because it gives them a really clear, like, this is my safe place to be. Um, it elevates their head so that their humans can be kind of holding onto their collar as if they're in a situation that's going to be a little bit more challenging for them. I used to mountain bike with Tucker up at, uh, Oh, just past Poudre Park there, uh, I forget the name. Uh, like Gray Rock or something? Yeah, kind of past there, but there's one that's, um, Oh, Hewlett Gulch. Hewlett Gulch, yeah, and Young's Gulch. Both of those are, are voice control allowed, uh, and, uh, Um, when Tucker is with me, he's all cool if I'm mountain biking and he's running along behind or whatever, um, but other times when I've just went hiking with him, one of his other bad behaviors, sorry, Tucker, I'm talking about all your bad behaviors here. We won't tell him. Uh, he probably doesn't listen. Yeah. Um, but he will occasionally, when mountain bikers come by and we're hiking. He'll occasionally like try to lunge for their shoes on their pedals I don't know it's defensive in some capacity, but it's like hey You're not supposed to be here on this weird machine or something. But when I'm on my mountain bike, he's never done it It's the weirdest thing like he he recognizes the other mountain bikers as like me when I have mine Anyway, it can also be kind of a bad habit bit of a, depending on the situation, bit of a startle response to, um, probably they come on pretty fast. So it's usually that like where they come around the corner, you're like, Oh, and he has, you know, with, with you, he has time to, he's like, Oh, yep, this is right, right. This is what we're doing. Right. Versus the one that's coming around the corner is it's a little bit, Well, he's got to confront the dragon kind of mentality in general. Um, so, uh, uh, what, how do you, do you teach like off leash behaviors as well, like for a situation like Hewlett or Young's Gulch there where you're like, yes sir, my dog is under voice control. I mean, I told him to be 150 yards away chasing the deer. We do, um, love to teach our students components of being successfully off leash with their dogs from a really early on in our curriculum. So like some of our early focus exercises that we're working on on leash, we try to teach in such a way that They, uh, the dog isn't dependent on the leash to be performing those skills. And so that the human is getting used to queuing their dog without using the leash as a cue. That's a big part of our education, because I think we as humans tend to handicap our dogs off leash skills, uh, by relying on it too much as the, the cue to get our dogs to stay with us. And so we, from an early on in our program are really trying to, um, encourage. from the dog independently of whether they're on or off leash. And then, um, in our recalls class at our level two, we are working on off leash recall, um, skills and components in a, um, contained environment. So in our training facility, but we're, we're starting to, um, give the dogs a little bit more freedom, give them the chance to, um, to practice those skills without the leash on and showing the human how to do that. And then our, um, Um, level three and level four classes kind of build towards, uh, off leash actual legit off leash, uh, and that's really, we're excited to build, um, offense that are spaced because we were, it is, uh, for dogs that are not ready to completely go off leash, it can be hard to find safe places to practice. Well, and you're just off Mulberry, right? Or whatever. And so we, um, are, that's one of our hopes for that off leash or for that, uh, future half acre fenced in and so we're gonna be using it in our classes. Right now we take our students, you know, out to the wilderness areas, uh, when we have our adventure dog classes. One of those classes is usually in a place where we can legally be off leash and, uh, we are That's, you know, it's a little bit hard to find those locations, especially for a group of, you know, four to six dogs. Sure. Um, Tucker and I went along with the, uh, wild west relay into some mobile podcasting and my ambulance rig, um, a couple of weekends ago and, uh, at some of the exchanges, um, like for example, chapel of the pines up in red feather. Um, I was talking to people doing podcasts and stuff and had a nice bowl of water for Tucker, but I just kind of let him, um, you know, Ramble? Be a dog. Yeah, be a dog. And he was, you know, basically the only dog and he became kind of the mascot by the end of the event. People were like, Hey, it's Tucker, you know, um, and there were, you know, 5 percent of people that were very judgy about me being the kind of terrible dog owner that would let my dog just run around off leash in a situation like that where there's a highway only. 50 yards away. Sure. From the parking lot. Yeah. Um, like, how do you approach that kind of? Off leash, uh, politics, as we call them, is a really hot topic. Just say, I'm sorry, Karen, but I'm going to leave my dog be the way he wants? I mean, so I have kind of students on both sides of this. I work with a lot of dogs that well, and Tucker's a prince, like that's the other part is he's just, I have no fear that he's going to bite anybody, but you know that, but not everyone else. Totally. Right. So, um, we have, that's what makes it ethically complicated, right? It is. It's a complicated issue. I, at the, at my core believe that dogs are, Um, healthiest, if they are given off leash opportunities to explore their environment. And I think with urbanization and suburbanization and stuff, we have those opportunities for our dogs to be, you know, unrestricted off leash have diminished at an incredible rate over the past 30 years. Sure. So the town I grew up in was a town of like a hundred people and there were 10, 15 dogs that were just. Right, and so we can see that a lot of our dogs you know, behavior problems that we, our students come with us today are, you know, because they are not, their needs are not being met with off leash time and their social ability to communicate with other dogs is not, um, natural because they are, um, restricted by a leash. So they've never had it. Right. And if you think about like you going into a social situation, dogs fight so much more if they've. Is there both on leashes and if they're both not, because if you think about like going into like a social setting, like a bar with your arms tied behind your back, right? You're not going to be able to do your normal, like handshake. So when our dogs are both on leash greeting nose to nose, there is a lot higher likelihood that they're going to have some sort of conflict than if both dogs were off leash. So I, that is, you know, I do believe on the one hand, However, we do live in a society where there are more dogs and more dog owners than ever before, and we have Occasionally a child gets their face chewed up by a pit bull or whatever. There's, yeah, there's more children involved, um, and we Also have to acknowledge that not every dog and not every family not every individual person walking down the street Is going to be comfortable with your off leash dog approaching them totally and it could put your dog if yours dog is the off leash Dog it could put them in a dangerous situation And so while we also have you know, I feel like we've we've Had maybe a little bit of deterioration in our expectations for off leash dogs as well in that In other places where I see more off leash prevalence There's also a pretty heavy emphasis on keeping your dogs with you and not letting them approach other people and other dogs unless they're invited And that's not really what I see in normal Like the average person, even a good dog is a hard time not going to check out new stuff. So there's still an element of training required there. Um, but I know that I have a lot of awfully, or I have a lot of reactive dog students or dogs that, you know, have had bad experiences with off leash dogs, been attacked by off leash dogs who have a lot of trauma there that when they see an off leash dog approaching them, that's the source of a lot of anxiety for the human and, and or the dog. And so I am both an advocate for off leash places, safe off leash situations, and also respecting the folks in other places where leashes are required, respecting the folks that you encounter. And if you're going to make the decision to have your dog off leash in a place that leashes are required, uh, then going above and beyond to make sure your dog is not, um, approaching anyone that has not invited them to is a really key piece to avoiding conflicts in those situations. Fair enough. I probably fell short of that, uh, but it's Redfeather too. So it's a little different. It's in the country. You know, it's a little different setting and runners, people that are willing to run from Fort Collins to steamboat in a relay race, that's a pretty extreme. They're probably not. It's a little, uh, high, uh, risk averse personalities and it's a complicated and I, We could, again, that's another one of those topics that we could talk about for an hour and capture all the nuances. And so I really try to hold space for people on all sides of that because I do, you know, I love taking my dog off leash places and also I have a small dog. So if I see a large breed dog off leash running up to me, I'm a little bit more anxious about it. For sure. For sure. Um, and, you know, there's So I really think that there's, um, the more grace we can have with other people and the more courtesy we can have with folks who are in an on leash place with their dog on leash, like it's pretty understandable if they're not okay with your dog running up to them. No, it's pretty interesting. Like walking around with Tucker in old town, for example, like three quarters of people. Probably half of people are like, oh, can we meet your dog? Like if they have small children, especially or whatever, a lot of people just don't care and then maybe 10 percent of people Like will cross to the other side of the sidewalk even with older kids, you know Because they're just you know, presumably have had bad experiences with dogs in some capacity We had a friend who's petrified of dogs and like real Phobia. Right, right. And on a hike one time, um, we were kind of standing off to the side to let some folks come down, um, the, the trail, and, uh, these people had, uh, like a, I don't know, eight month old lab puppy who immediately jumps up and of course jumps on my friend who's petrified. Of course. And they. Almost fell over the cliff trying to get away from this dog. Oh my gosh. And the, the person whose dog jumped said, Oh, it's okay, they're friendly. And that, my, my friend was like, It doesn't matter to me. Right. He didn't have, doesn't have any, I don't care that it's just a puppy. Right. No, that matters. It's a, It's a phobia at that point. Yeah, well. Um, exposure to those conditions. Like, it took, Um, him, I think, probably a year of side by side interactions with my dog, completely not to be like, Let me touch him. And my dog is 10 pounds and completely fluffy Yeah. You can grab it and throw it off the cliff. Right? It is very, very fluffy and un unimposing, very un unthreatening, right? A big cotton ball. And so, and that was, so this was like a, a really legit flu. And so in that. moment, like the human's response of, Oh, he's, don't worry. Yeah. Yeah. I've said that to people when Tucker's running up to them to meet their dog or whatever. And that's can, if you are a person who has that phobia or your dog has a phobia hearing, Oh, don't worry. He's friendly is the last thing you care about for sure. For sure. Um, let's talk about your business evolution a little bit. Um, uh, like do you, um, Like you have your high school kind of thing going on here. Actually, let's go back even further. Let's, let's go back even before that, that 10 or 11 year old girl that got her first dog and like, where are you in first grade? I am reading every, like, about the breeds dog book that I can find. Really? Like dog encyclopedias and different things like that? Yes. All of those, like, 500 dog breeds around the world. Like, I think I had probably I have that book, actually. I think I had all four of them. Four different versions of the same book. Um, and I have a collection of stuffed animal dogs. And, um, Are you here in Colorado? No, I'm in Virginia. Okay. Yeah, which is where my family is. Tell me about, uh, tell me about your family setting there just a little bit. We jumped in the time machine. We didn't even notice it. That's okay. We like zoomed back to, uh, I mean, you're quite a bit younger than me. I don't know. Are you, is this, uh, This is like the mid 80s or late 80s? This is, um, so I'm 32, so Oh wow, you're way younger than me. Yeah, this is, um You've accomplished a lot for a 32 year old person. I have been busy. I have been very busy. So this is, I guess, uh, I'm, you know, late 90s. Yeah, sure. I'm sorry, by the way, I did not. Um, I have, uh, I'm 32. All the stuffed dogs. I have all of the, um, dog paraphernalia like, uh, and you're in like urban Virginia? Rural Virginia, like, uh, just south of DC. Okay. So like an hour south of dc. Is your father or mother a government, St. Doge or what were you, dad, what was your family doing there? Dad? My dad worked for the, as a civilian contractor for the governments do is kind of a funny word for the Department of Defense. Okay. So, um, he worked on has for a long time or did for a long time. Yeah, he is. Has retired at this point three times from, and just keeps going back to work for different, uh, positions at this point. Does he have like a specialty area or expertise? As far as I understand it, um, he works in, like, submarine technologies. Okay, they just sent some submarines over to the Middle East today. Yeah. He may be involved, but there's a whole lot of Hoping to keep the ship from hitting the vent over there. There's a whole lot of classified information that I just, I get the, I get the high level. So he was doing that, that's why you guys were there. Was he from there? My parents are both from Virginia. Okay. Um, different parts. Sure. But, uh, the, he moved, yeah, we were there. But that was home for them effectively, or extended family, or grandparents were around and stuff like that. My grandparents lived in the, um, In the town that, within 30 minutes of me, my mom's parents and my dad's parents lived about three hours away. And siblings? I have two younger siblings. Okay. So, a younger sister and a younger brother. And So you were like this dog crazy girl from the time you were like going to kindergarten. Yes, very much so. Anything else in your life like where you, you, you were a high achieving student sounds like in general. So you were like coasting to get good grades and stuff like that while you were spending all this time dog crazy. And my education was kind of, um, in a way is kind of tied with my dog experience because I was, uh, my siblings and I were home, all homeschooled. And so we had the opportunities to do extracurriculars in a different way from our student, our peers. More experiential education. Yeah. And it wasn't that we didn't do, you know, all of the, it was just, you know, We had more flexibility, more customization. And so, you know, finish your, are you glad for that? Yeah, I am actually, because I was able to do like kind of dive into dogs. really deep way at a really young age. And then I was able to get, you know, a job at a veterinary clinic at age 16. And, um, it wasn't just an afterschool, uh, it was like, I could go, you know, as long as I got my schoolwork done, I could go, um, at different, you know, times than my peers. And so I really, um, like learned a lot that way. And then I started, um, community college in my senior year of high school. And so I graduated high school already having one year of my bachelor's degree done. And, um, So really, I think for me, it really set me up for a lot of success in my chosen career. I was able to do a lot of things a little bit more creatively because I wasn't in the same setting. Yeah, you were constrained by it. You could learn as fast as you wanted to, to some extent. Did you, All the way through high school, too? And then so community college was kind of your first experience with a bunch of people that weren't your neighborhood and family friends. Yeah, I mean we did different things for, for our yearly school education ranging from like co ops, homeschool co ops. Oh, so you had other homeschool kids that you were friends with. And then I did an online year of high school online, um, I want to say my junior year. Okay. Yeah. And then, or maybe my sophomore and junior year. And so I like was learning from different, different sources. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, had, you know, a lot of my four H group was Oh, right. Uh, like I was, that was a huge part of your social circles. Probably. I was at four H, you know, four, four nights a week went in blue ribbon and stuff. Oh wow. Um, and a person doesn't necessarily think of four H when you think about. Washington, D. C. Well, we were in, we were in rural Virginia, just outside of Washington, D. C. It just, it just, I don't know, it seems, uh, when I think about 4 H, I think about Kansas, you know, and Sterling, Colorado, and different things like that. So that's really cool, uh, to have that combination of influences of kind of real urban, your dad's work and all that, very Top level stuff and then you know getting to hang out with farm kids and people raising You know ducks and rabbits and stuff to take to the shows And in our county 4 H works a little bit differently depending on where you are But in our county they were it was broken up by projects. So I was specifically most involved in the dog project Oh sure, and so, you know While we did do other things you weren't quilting and stuff necessarily I wasn't that into that. I did do some quilting I did so quite a bit as a child, but it was always dog foot. So it's still tied back into, um, our, our dog projects. Um, so you get out of high school, you start community college, uh, what's the, I mean, you were kind of prepping to be in dogs the whole time. Like, what did your career education journey look like from there? So I had been. Kind of, uh, teaching and also apprenticing with different, in different kind of formats like all through high school. And then I graduated high school and enrolled in, um, the Care and Prayer Academy, which is, uh, a well respected, uh, Uh, training education course and, uh, so pretty much like started working towards that. Almost like a technical degree for auto mechanics or something like that. But it's a six month program and it's not the only one. There are others as well. But, um, this was one that had been recommended as a good starting place. And I think I, um, I think I took a, finished up my community college degree or associate's degree and then enrolled in this. Um, but pretty much as soon as I was 18, I incorporated my business into an LLC and got my first like insurance and really started. Um, trying to, uh, to formalize things instead of, um, piecemealing, at the same time. You were going to build an enterprise the whole time, like Yeah, I mean, I was working on it, but I was also, I was in school full time taking 18 credits a semester. I was working part time at the vet clinic. I was teaching piano lessons. Oh! And I was teaching, I was a certified Zumba fitness instructor. Oh, wow. So, I had like, pretty much five classes. jobs and, um, also going to school full time. And so it wasn't until like, kind of, I don't know, a year or two later, I realized I really needed to kind of focus on one of those areas. I couldn't be, you know, continue to do. Couldn't be a concert pianist and the best dog trainer in the world. Tell me about the piano. Where did that, uh, was your family into music and stuff like that? Your mom? My mom is, uh, was, uh, a pianist, uh, for since she was a child. And so I took 12 years of piano lessons, not with her, but, um, she does teach piano now, but that, uh, at the time of us growing up, we took from a few other teachers. So I was a, um, really into some classical and jazz like competitions and things, uh, and ultimately just kind of taught a few lessons here and there for some folks in our community. And, um, Could have done more but it wasn't I knew I needed to focus on on one area But I do have I did really Benefit from 12 years of lessons. Yeah still play occasionally. Although I have lost Quite a bit of like the finesse on So I had years of like, some of the more complex, like I pull out my books and be like, Oh, I played this for my senior recital and I'm like, Oh man, I do, my fingers have definitely lost some of that muscle memory. But I'm sure, you know, given six months of practicing regularly, you'd probably be pretty strong. Yeah, and I can still read music and see things Pick up, you know, a chord sheet and play and you can do something with Nick, uh, do some kind of, uh, working together with rap and piano. Um, so, so you're incorporated, you're doing business. How long before you like hired a first employee or a helper, what did that, what did scaling look like for you? And when did you come to Colorado? Was that part of this journey? So I was in Virginia for, um, until I was. 21 and I so I had a couple years of Incorporate having incorporated my business and did some education and then I moved to North Carolina Or I got I got married at 21 and moved to North Carolina for my husband's job his first job after his Finishing his degree and I worked for someone else there for that period because I We weren't really thinking that was going to be where we were long term. I didn't really want to, um, rebuild my business. It's not Virginia, but it's too close to Virginia to really stay here. Right. And also I was like early on in my education career and I wanted to learn from other people. So, um, the place we ended up in North Carolina didn't have any great dog trainers. So I commuted an hour, um, to Raleigh. Um, and worked for a dog training company there, learned a lot. Um, and I was there for about a year when, um, my husband got into, um, a master's degree program at CSU. Oh, okay. So CSU pulled you out to Colorado. Where'd you find him along the way, by the way? Uh, we didn't hear about that. That's a long story, but, um, we, our families were friends and so we kind of grew up together and, um, weren't, we weren't really, he and I weren't really friends until. we were in college and we started dating. Um, so, and then we dated for three years. Oh, well, um, and then got married. So he's a mechanical engineer. then went back and got his master's degree in mechanical engineering with a focus on, um, environmental sustainability. And, um, CSU has a great program for that. And, um, he's, you know, now, uh, awesome consultant working to help, um, corporations reduce, Um, what's his name by the way, Charlie, uh, we'll, uh, we'll talk more about Charlie here in a later segment. Um, so then is that like a rival here? You're like, okay, well, we're in Colorado. I could work with him. This place or that place or that place but none of them are really top flight Why isn't there a top flight place in town? So I wasn't originally intending to reopen my business when I relocated to Colorado I was kind of in the same like let me you know, he's gonna be in grad school I kind of need a stable job Let me you know Go work for someone else get some more years of experience and then who knows if we'll be here after he finishes grad school or not, and then I'll reopen but I got a job and it very quickly realized it was not It was a terrible job with a terrible person. It was not going to be a sustainable, um, long term position. Um, and a key piece for that was, um, that, you know, I was a credentialed dog trainer at that time already. I had a, uh, you know, still a lot to learn, but also I had invested a lot of money and time into that. And this position wasn't for a dog trainer, but they, it was at a company that did offer dog training. And during the hiring process, they made it really clear. We're not hiring you for dog training. I was like, that's great. I'll, you know, come work. I need a job. I need a job. I'll come work. I'm skilled in veterinary. I'm skilled in other places, but I will come doing that. But I also made it really clear that I'm a credentialed dog trainer. And so if they were not hiring me for dog training, I was also planning on looking for other opportunities to do dog training. And that during my hiring process, that was just fine. And then they handed me a non compete on the first day. And I was like, I'm not signing this. Yeah. So, um, I It's kind of shady. Whatever. I mean, it could have been a miscommunication between different pieces of their staff, but I did take it back to the hiring manager. That wouldn't have been legal anymore. Like, that kind of non compete stuff is no longer really allowed. Nine years ago, so. Yeah, yeah. Um, I Like took it back to the hiring manager. I'm like, I are you this isn't what we talked about and if this is a condition of be Working here, then I'm sorry. I'm gonna have to you know, put this Because you've been like shopping for this job before you even moved A lot of my previous bosses knew the people that I was That were hiring me and had given me a glowing review. Like I was you know Right an asset to this team But that was a, a condition of continuing employment there. And so I said, okay, thank you. And then, um, so then I went and opened my company. Yeah. Um, what was that first, uh, six months like, like nobody knows you, right? Like you're just fresh in town. And it was a lot of work. Um, I did a lot of like boots on the ground. I had a few connections here already from, you know, Um, just folks that, because it's a, a veterinary college, I had met folks in, um, Did some networking within the CSU community and stuff, whatever. Well, and I had met folks in Virginia and North Carolina who had connections here. And so, um, everyone was super generous and being like, Oh, you need to talk to this person and this person. And so I just kind of, you know, knocked on doors and talked to a lot of people. Um, got a few clients, like a website and a flyer kind of thing to the doggie, uh, back when doggie Olympics was an event, I had a booth there and met a lot of awesome people and that was, you know, it was at Corgi fest and stuff like that too. I think, uh, tortoise Corgi didn't start until the next year, but I was at the first one or, um, but doggie Olympics, like, I think I opened my, business on like, I don't know, the second week of September or something, or maybe the first week and found out about the doggy Olympics. I was able to get a booth that year. So like, literally I have like business cards that just got in from different, um, and so 18 baby. Right. And so that's like my marketing materials at doggy Olympics and just kind of being, um, uh, just meeting people. And then I did get connected with a, um, a local, um, They're no longer here in Fort Collins, but they were a dog agility company and they had a location that, um, they did dog agility mainly, but also had a space for other types of classes. And so I started teaching out of there. And then I want to say about six months ago. Four months into that they announced that they were closing and selling the building and the new owners of the building Offered to well, we didn't didn't offer but we approached them about renting Subletting a portion of that building So they the building was kind of three pieces and the new owners rented two of the pieces to another business Um, and then I rented like one third of that, which was what, like a thousand square feet or 2000 or something. Okay. So it was a little bit, um, it was a, it was a jump for us getting, getting started. I mean, that's only six months in, right? And it really, it kind of helped catalyze, uh, folks awareness of us because we were, um, you know, got a for real location and we had, it was a place that dog people had already been coming. Um, but it was. not, um, it was not like how I would recommend someone doing it. We were going to look back. It was quite the build the airplane while, while you're flying. Yes, exactly. So I spent the first, um, year there paying Uh, independent contractors to teach, to fill up the space and really, um, paying way too much rent and overhead for the size of your business yet. Yes. But also I didn't have things structured in a sustainable way with what I was paying people and what I was charging. So I hadn't dialed in those levers. Um, that that's my space. Now I look back on what we were paying for rent. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's so cheap for what that space was. But at that time, like I was still trying to build your customer base, probably not charging enough, paying your contractors too much because you needed somebody to help pay for this building, all the things. And so after a year, um, the, um, A couple of things came together. One, Charlie had graduated, um, his master's program and well, and he wasn't, we weren't sure if he was going to get a job here or somewhere else. And so we were dragging our feet a little bit on renewing our lease because we weren't, he wasn't sure if he was. getting a job here. He had a job offer for something in Salt Lake City, so we weren't sure, like, if he was gonna, if we were gonna stay in the area. So we didn't, like, jump to renew the lease, like, you know, six months ahead of time. And then, as it got closer, our landlord at the time, um, the business that had the other two units, which was a some sort of manufacturing business, wanted to expand. And so they made the decision to not renew our lease and to, um, to lease that third space to their other tenant, which is, you know, I understand reasonable, reasonable thing. We drug our feet and also they had one tenant who wanted that space. Uh, and so we kind of went back from having a big facility to a homeless, uh, like untethered business again, which really allowed for the opportunity for us to take a step back and be like, let's center our. branding. Let's center our, um, goals around this business. Let's really, um, think about what we want to offer. And, uh, and then we taught, I had a few core team members at that point, um, folks that weren't just independent contractors that were actually part Okay, yeah, yeah, and uh, the contractors are mostly kind of dispersed for a season kind of just didn't have the facility I didn't need um, you know as much as I I loved having those type of auxiliary courses Like I couldn't host an agility class with you know, no in your backyard host a nose work, um, uh class So we kind of really focused on our core services, which is our, our pet dog manners and advanced manners classes, our hiking, um, classes, our, um, you know, other kind of lifestyle focused for our pet dog folks. And then, um, I did teach a fair amount of, um, Dog parkour in different parks and things at that time, but we kind of float around. We had awesome Well found awesome partners who can host us for classes So we taught I think we taught classes four or five nights a week in five different locations Well ranging from pet supply stores Like wags downtown was an awesome host for us We taught in there in their store tiny tiny space. We had like a For students, you know, after hours, um, we made it work. We taught in Chrysler's, um, and Betty's who, neither of which are, uh, are in business in Fort Collins anymore, but, um, we taught in breweries. Um, we had, we cultivated several different brewery partners who could host us for basics. And then also from that, our brewery manners class that, um, kind of came into existence in 2018. Um, so we, and then, uh, we had, you know, so many different range of places that we taught classes and we just made it work, but it allowed us to kind of see what did we want for from a facility. What do we need? And, um, and then in 2020. Now in 2019, September 2019, we had the opportunity to purchase our first, um, facility. And it was small, but mighty, but it, we had been teaching in, you know, very tiny spaces. So, uh, Made you more efficient and things like that. And I guess, uh, Charlie, you got a job locally and that kind of cemented that opportunity to kind of stick around. Was that, were you excited about that? I was, I think at that time in 2017, when we were like, are we leaving Fort Collins or not? Neither of us really wanted to leave at that point. Um, I think. We have, you know, kind of tested out several different like opportunities to leave Fort Collins over the years and none of them have panned out. And some we've been more excited about than others. Um, and, but always when they don't work out, we're like, great, now we don't have to, we always come back to like, really, you know, enjoying this place that we live. So you relanded in a physical location just in 2019. And then. What, three, four short. Four or five short years later, you're outgrew that. Yeah. So we, in 2019 we bought the first of our like, um, small industrial units and then in 2020 we bought the second. Okay. In the same building. Yep. So we had two classrooms in the same, um, industrial warehouse building and they were small but mighty. Yep, yep. We, um, like to tell people that like. You know, we kind of, I, at that point we're starting to formulate a vision for like a bigger space, but also wanting to do it in a sustainable way and having had the experience of going and doing a huge space and it not being sustainable, really wanting to build back towards it in a way that, um, would make sure that it was going to last long. You communicated that with your clients and your trainers and everything, or more internally kind of thinking that way. Right. Not like a. This is, you know, what our strategy is. But also when someone would be like, Hey, your space is kind of small. I'd be like, I know we are aware of it. We are, we are working hard to be building towards something bigger, but we needed this time in those small spaces to catalyze that in a way. Cause, uh, our most recent move to this. One acre property, you know, wouldn't not have been possible from zero. Could have never done it. You didn't have a big enough machine to pay for that. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. For the bank to be like, yes, we'll lend you a lot of, a lot of money to do that. Well, and now you own a couple of units from the former business that you can rent out and you've got the new space. So, uh, successfully rented. Awesome. Love it. Um, you know, I need to call a short break cause I'm been drinking water and I'm squirming and we'll be right back. And we are back. So, like, you've really been pretty authentic about kind of the, uh, I guess learning what the machine, you know, both between margin and pricing and paying staff. And then also just acknowledging, you know, how much space can my machine afford and taking the next place. What would you say were some of the, the big learning moments along, you know, toward not being a dog trainer, but becoming, being a business owner? I think, uh, I'm always learning something, but I think, uh, a big part for me has been. allowing myself to view like being an expert business owner as a chosen career path. Yeah. An achievable goal. Because you know for a lot of my life it was like be an expert dog trainer, be an expert dog trainer, be an expert doctor, which I still care a lot about. But also I had to realize at some point that my business had grown to a large enough size that it needed me to focus more on the business aspect of it and let my team take some of the, um, the dog training piece. So I have, you know, five other dog trainers on my team who are all wonderful experts and that's what they focus on. And I do still do continuing education on training. But not nearly as much as I used to. I used to, you know, do so many, um, webinars and read so many dog training books and read, uh, this and that. You know, you go to this conference and learn from this person and do this certification course. And now a lot of my recent education has been on how to be an expert business owner. So I'm reading business books. I'm going to, um, you know, business focused webinars. I'm talking to people about, um, about business more. And so I think for me, that was a kind of a milestone and I want to be clear. I'm not like saying it's not important to be a good service provider, but also I have. Now, sometimes clients will come and be like, I'm going to work with Amber and I will have to say like, honestly, based on what you're trying to do, like if you have a severe behavior case, like you really want to work with Angela or Sarah, Danny on my team, because they are the people that are doing that day in and out. And if you have a puppy, you really want to work with Shea or Meredith on my team because they are managing puppies in our adventure camp program. Day in, day out. And so the letting them be the service provider experts and, um, And like knowing a little bit about, you know, a lot of things so that I can communicate about it. I can write curriculum on it. Um, I can, you know, support my team when they want to brainstorm about things, but really like, I don't have time to continue learning. like all the things in every modality and every, you know, thing, and also run the business in a way that's going to be sustainable for everyone. So that's kind of been a big learning shift for me. Um, how would your team describe you? Some of the folks have been with you for a while, especially, uh, if, if, if you weren't here and they were just telling me, I think, I suspect, you know, you have to ask them because I bet they tell you. I think that I, I do, um, hear a lot of appreciation for my team on, um, the management style that I try to adopt and that I'm trying to, I try to be supportive. I try to be, um, collaborative, not micromanaging, letting them like do their thing, but also, yeah, but like also having the structure and support to, to do that. And I do think that they, um, I don't know, I think they would maybe tell you that I'd Try to do too much and so maybe I don't don't always give all of the things that they need but but I don't know I I do love my team and I love the Collaborative working relationship that we try to have how did you Because I think you found loco think tank or were introduced to me in some capacity before we got a coffee How did you find us? I'm a member of an organization called entrepreneurs. Oh, yo A is what I'm in the entrepreneur organization accelerator, so that's for Growing businesses under a million demographic, but getting there getting there. I'm working to get there and the You Uh, I was at an EO event in May and met someone who was like, oh, like I know some, um, business folks in Fort Collins. I'll introduce you. And so, oh, right, he had, was it Bill? Bill? Yeah. Oh yeah. Bill Poole, I think. Hey, bill through a regular listener. Yeah. Shout out to Bill. Yeah. Thanks for the, the intro. So, yeah, he, uh, set up a few. Um, connection points for me. And that's how we get. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Now I, now I'm recalling, um, and, uh, yeah, well, I'm going to keep chasing you a little bit here, uh, local membership as we go along, um, anything else, like from a business standpoint, you know, maybe that you would share with a, with a young aspiring entrepreneur that's wondering, you know, do I want to just do not just, do I want to be a great dog trainer or do I want to develop a dog training business? Yeah, I. Would say like think about what You Want from your life and or professional Existence Right, but think about like your objectives like are you Someone who wants to just kind of show up be a great service provider Go home. Are you someone who wants to be? You growing something that grows beyond you. And are you willing to put in the work? Um, I think that there are And it depends on when you would ask me, but right now I think there are more days where I'm happy to have a big business than not. There are, have certainly been other periods in my business journey where I have been Had more days where I wish that I could burn it all. Why the hell did I ever read this stupid space? There have been some, a lot of times in my business history where I've been like, let's burn it all down and I'll just go back to just being me. But ultimately I've had to come back to, that's not what I want from my right now. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I won't be back there again in the future. But, um, So I would tell someone just starting out to really be clear with yourself on like what your, um, what your objectives are. Where do you want to try to get to? Yeah, fair enough. Because if you're just looking for Some people think like, Oh, I'm going to get employees and stuff and I'll have passive income. If you're just looking for passive income, there are way easier ways. You know, uh, my, actually my current podcast guest, the one that just came out this morning, uh, Don Cooper talked to quite a bit about it in our conversation about, uh, avoiders and pursuers. You know, we think about entrepreneurs mostly as pursuers of the goal. You know, I want to deliver, you know, more dog training to more people. And so that's part of the reason that I'm growing this team and, and whatever. And then there's also avoiders that are like, I want to avoid working for somebody else. And so that's why I'm starting this business. And, uh, you know, sometimes they're caught flat footed by how much, uh, work they don't avoid. Right. And how much more work they create for themselves. Exactly. Yes. Um, well, I'm ready to jump into our, uh, closing segments if you are. Sure. All right. Uh, faith, family, or politics. We, uh, any order and, and any content that you'd like to, uh, share in that. Faith, faith, family, or politics. Yep. Okay. Um. Yeah, just in general, we can, uh, I can prompt you a little bit, I guess. Here's one, um, we can go to politics. We got Donald Trump and Elon Musk having a interview and the, uh, European union warned Elon that he better be a good mediator, otherwise they're going to like, don't let our, don't do misinformation, don't let Donald Trump misinformation our populace. Cause you'll be in super big trouble. Uh, how do you feel about that whole crazy, uh, uh, situation in global politics and Yeah, so I'm not super, uh, I did see the headlines about that they were gonna be having a discussion and, um, I have to really ration the amount of emotional energy I can spend on either of those individuals. All right. In my life. I, um, really, So yes, I am glad that there are people like the EU who are out there like trying to figure out how to be how to be safe on a global scale with whatever information they're gonna put out there, but Um, I just have a lot of other fish to fry Okay, fair enough. So you think that's very excited to tune into the donald trump. Um, Harris debate. Oh good. Yeah. Um, so you would come in line with kind of Yes, the government in general, whether it's the EU or the American media or the government has a responsibility to be the policer of free speech, then I, I think I'm, don't have enough well formed thoughts on that particular issue. Um, but I think that both Donald Trump and Elon Musk have a huge amount of power in the What they tend to put out there, and a big platform. True. And I feel strongly that they are also very very emotionally charged individuals. Yeah, they're, uh, impulsive, we'll say. Very impulsive, and so if I think about, like, a reactive dog reacting, you know, widespread to like, I'm gonna react to this, I'm gonna react to that, and I'm gonna, you know, pull behavior out that may not really be. What's going to serve the whole society. They're going to just like react to things. I am going to be like, so I think something that they could say in this conversation could cause people to react and do things that are bad for the world. Absolutely. Okay. Already seen that. Um, how so? Like the, there's many, many examples, but we have, uh, you know, Donald Trump's lack of peaceful transition of power. And, uh, and by either what he overtly or by omission said in, with the, um, with the January 6th rioter kind of situation. Like that caused big flare ups and big actual physical consequences for, um, our nation. There's a lot of people in prison right now. Right. And so, that, you know, I do think is, you know, So you're presumably enthusiastic of the swap out of Harris for Biden? I am. I am. Um, I mean, I think How do you feel about the way it was done? Do you feel like that's comfortable? I felt like at least they should have done it at the convention so that it was some semblance of vote rather than kind of the power brokers saying, Biden's out, Kamala's in, that's just the way it's going to be after all these people voted, you know, I was uncomfortable with that. I'm sure it, a lot of things about the Biden administration could have been done better. And, um, I do think that it, it took quite a bit of, um, like public sentiment getting sour. You had to see how the wind was blowing for a while before Um, like it's a, it's a big step for an incumbent president to step down from reelection and abdicate that, um, position of being a candidate. And that's, I, I definitely think it could have been done better. Do you feel like it was reasonable that he was run in the primary or should he have just stepped down before the primary and had the next? If I was, if I was, uh, in, in charge of those decisions, um, He should have definitely have stepped down before the primary. Right. It seemed like most people that saw videos and stuff, you're like, uh, four more years, like even in 2020, honestly, absolutely. And I am a big, um, like, I definitely believe that the democratic parties have. Their head in the sand for a long time. Well, and it begs the question, who's actually been making the decisions for the country too, right? Like, Oh, let's withdraw Afghanistan. Joe, what do you think? Is it right? Are we ready? There's, you know, so many, I'm a cynical libertarian. So I criticize. Everybody, including Trump, including Kamala. Yeah. Um, so anything, I guess, from a, on a political standpoint that you kind of do focus your lens on? Um, I really try to think about like what policies would impact, um, me and my team as a small business. And, um, that definitely informs my politics because, you know, I have long said that one of the, like for a country that is such, um, you know, the economy is based so, you know, strongly on small businesses and we like, you know, that's a big part of our marketing brand. We're small businesses. I do not find this to be a small business friendly country and a big, you know, that, that can range from, well, look at the market share that the big companies took from small businesses because of the COVID response. There's, you know, that, and then there's also like the amount of every other. quarter, there's more hoops that we have to jump through to have employees. You know, I, you know, spend a lot of money paying people to keep us, uh, in compliance with all because it's too much to do family medical leave acts. Uh, and I am not saying that there aren't valuable programs. I'm just saying the management of them is complicated for a small solo, uh, business. And then a big piece that We acutely see in our industry, because we are a, um, a smaller industry, we're not selling big ticket tech items in order for me to, like, I can't afford health insurance for my employees at this stage in my business. I have looked, I have priced it out. Um, it is. insurmountable cost for, for me to add that for my employees. And so the, my talent pool is limited to folks that are either young enough to be on their, um, their parents or their spouse has health insurance that has a job that has health insurance. And so I have long said like the, if we truly want to be a business, small business, friendly country, we, one of the biggest things that we could do, um, is stabilize our health care system and provide some sort of like social safety net component focused on health care that incentivizes and enables those employees to then go and work for small businesses, um, that can't provide those. Like I can't compete with, you know, the big tech company that can offer huge group policy insurance and for, for me to provide all the Shitty insurance for my employees. Yeah, they didn't want that. It costs you a fortune and you can't, yeah. And so like for that is one of those things that makes healthcare and access to healthcare like an important issue for me. And I don't and I'm not saying that I have the perfect solution or that there is the perfect solution out there but I know that our current system is not the perfect solution. Totally messed up and and probably medicare for all would be you. Totally messed up too. There's just too much Which there's not any market forces really pushing on it I think Mark Cuban is kind of a bonehead sometimes, but he's actually got a health insurance plan that He put forward maybe three four years ago where like if you have a catastrophic Medical thing and you've got this big balance out there. It's Like the most you have to pay is like six and a half percent of your income. And that just kind of goes toward that thing. And if you get more catastrophic, so you, so you've got, but there's also a market mechanism. So you can go to different providers before you do this thing. Cause if you get the single payer, then, you know, that probably has the same, I fear it would have the same outcomes as like the university system when everybody can get government loans and they just kind of have no motivation to try to. Compete and be efficient. Yeah, I mean, I think it it warrants like conversations considering folks from different backgrounds, like marketing, like entrepreneur expertise, like, can, let's consider different ideas and really think about going back to the drawing board to create something that actually is going to work rather than, um, continuing to put band aids on our current system. There's a whole lot of health insurance companies that want to continue to exist though. And they have a large, a lot of dollars going that way, but that, you know, as a small business owner, like, I can't, um, I can't advocate for like keeping the system the same. Yeah. Yeah. No, it can't be unrealistic about that either. Yeah, no, it's a, I agree. Um, want to talk about faith or family next? Um, either one. Okay. Um, let's talk more about family. Uh, so Friends of family, uh, this, this hubby of yours, Charlie, um, was it just like instant, like once you started actually dating and being interested in each other or like talk to me about that, uh, circumstance. We, um, had grown up in the same circles. We went to the same church, our family, our parents were friends. Okay. Um, and we. Um, but we were not really friends, um, individually, like, beyond, like, And is it a large church, a smaller community? Um, it's small, like, maybe 150 people. Okay. So, like, not There weren't that many eligible bachelors in the group. No, I guess not. But, um, we, like, started dating in college. And I would say, so in the culture we grew up in, there was like a, a heavy emphasis on like, um, how to say it. Not like you date very intentionally. Is this like Mennonite or something like that? Or what are we talking about here? Evangelical Christianity. Okay. All right. Um, so, but also, supposed in the South. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bible belt. And so, and so you're courting not dating, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's what, it was a lot of like being together during family things. Yeah. With chaperones and different things. Um, and so, but you're also like trying to be like, can I picture my life with this person and a lot of things I don't believe in anymore, but, um, the, you first six months because we didn't really we weren't really friends before because there was also a heavy amount of emphasis on like unless you are dating or according to Determine if you're gonna marry this person you shouldn't be friends. Right? Don't spend time with girls. They're dangerous vice versa yeah, so okay, we spent the first six months just like figuring out how to be friends and Honestly the first six months I was like, he's kind of an ass Okay. And he knows that I feel that he also was like, yeah, kind of like any 20 year old who's, you know, thinks they're the hot shit. Um, so, but you know, six months in like, okay, I guess, I guess we'll keep going. And, um, so then we were, we, uh, had like, Uh, kind of a year of kind of more traditional courting. And then we kind of went on our, well, then you moved out here, right? Then you're like, yeah, well, we got, we did get married first though. Yeah. We dated for three years total, but it was like a year before of courting before we even went on a date. Right. Right. Um, so, and it sounds, I know people who didn't grow up in that feel like it's super weird. And it is weird. So, you're allowed to feel that way. Well, and, and cultures can be different and still all be okay. You know, maybe some people that that felt beautiful for. Right. And as part of that, and I, uh, as part of that experience, like it really, um, Like, we really worked hard to be friends first before getting caught up in, uh, the other feelings that come with dating someone. And so we have, I mean, that means we have like, our relationship is built on a really solid, like. Yeah. Just friendship and then, um, love on top of that. And so, even times when you're like, Huh, this person's really, you know, I'm not feeling the love right now. Yeah. You, like, we have a really You're still buddies. Right. Behind, below that and in addition to. Um, do you guys have kids? We do not. Okay. Do you Think about it. No, not at all We you know grew up in that culture where like it was always kind of a given But we kind of made a when we got married we're like well You know revisit that in five five years. Okay, like we want, you know a good solid time together before we did and then we just kept pushing the timeline out and then kind of had a Conversation about five years ago that we're like we really actually feel like we We've gotten distanced from that culture we grew up in enough to be like, Actually, I don't really know that this is something that either of us wanted individually. Well, you're like, super smart, ambitious, smart, you know, attractive people. Like, have babies. Like, the world needs more babies. I mean Smart people, at least. There also, I think, is a fair amount of that can take care of that. And, you know, we also have a really, um, in our discussions with each other, we have like openness to like, if we change our minds in the future, but it's not when we first started, uh, when we first got married, it was like, we're, we are, there was an expectation and now we are planning not to have kids. with some openness to change if we feel like it in the future. We, uh, we always do a one word description of the children. And so in this case, uh, it'll be your fur baby, I guess. Do you have a one word description for your little dog? Um, and what's her name again? His name is Jameson. Jameson. Okay. Um, I would say just, he's, we call him, he has so many nicknames. Um, But just, he's really just a prince. Yeah, I like it. I like it in the right ways and the wrong ways, perhaps a little bit reinforced all of that, but he just like got a lot of strut, but also it doesn't get too concerned about anybody else's impressions. Whatever he's just, he's a prince. Yeah, I dig it. Um, faith is our last, uh, forbidden, but mandatory topic. Um, sounds like you've, at least to some extent, Rejected the faith of your, of your family and your upbringing. Is that like, was that a, a moment? Was that a gradual process? Uh, what did that look like for them? Kind of a combination of both. So, um, I grew up Christian, was a Christian. culturally and, uh, like religiously, Christian. You felt a faith and even including like you probably got baptized when you were 15 or 12 or something. Six. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so And you were way grown up for your age, huh? Like you were like a 15 year old, six year old or something. Yeah. I've always been like very mature for my age category. I take it as not your appearance, but your maturity that I overshot the guess on how old you are. Um, so I really like just kind of, It was kind of an evolution and also not an evolution of, um, realizing that I no longer understand what Christianity stands for in this country. And then seeing it as such a departure from what I grew up experiencing it as. Okay. And then this like Trump related to kind of like the, okay. Um, so I've heard that from a number of people that they. You know, the fact that the, especially the evangelical Christian community would embrace such a orange man bad, like made them question their faith almost. 100%. And it wasn't, don't put, I don't give him that amount of power over my life to say it was his fault or anything, but to see how Um, like the Christianity I understood from being raised in it and the, the values that I felt were instilled in me as part of that community felt diametrically opposed to everything that has since become represented by, you know, a large portion of his evangelical followers. And so that's one element of it. I would call them supporters more than followers. I, I really don't think he's got followers in the way that Even that a Taylor Swift has followers, frankly. I mean, there's, you know, different definitions, but definitely, there's elements of his recent and historic interactions with the people who support him that seem rather cult like. Like, I suppose, yeah. Yeah. I can, yeah. And um, so was this like, so you moved to Fort Collins area, Northern Colorado in when? 2015. 2015, okay. So yeah, that was like your separation from your family and historic faith kind of geographically came at about that same time that he's like rising in Thatcher. Mm-Hmm. yeah, for sure. And then not really, um, not really understanding. Um. How, like, I'm, I'm not of the belief that we all need to vote the same, that of any, and that was, uh, that's not my disagreement with this, but just having, um, you know, such a strong emotional, uh, reaction seeing, like, all of the The people that are around me saying, like, love your neighbor. Yeah. And then, or respect women, or, um, you know, talk to people nicely. I think I'm hearing that your heart was kind of broken by the fervor with which the Evangelical Church kind of pivoted to be okay with Trump kind of thing and support him. Yeah. And just not understanding. Yeah. How to reconcile that yeah, and then you know also kind of then just I spent many years like still physically going to church. Okay, and being Just really Pattern or whatever. Yeah, just just angry. Yeah So what do you do with Jesus now? Like are you just? kind of anti church or you're anti christ? Like, where do you, have you done something different with that heart posture? It's a, it's one of those things where the more distance I got from the church, the more I kind of started to view the church and the power that holds over people or the, the weight, the reasons people go to church and the reasons people believe It's another way that humans are like looking for, you know, community, looking for a higher purpose, looking for a reason to get out of the world or get out and do things in the world. Yeah. Yeah. I have all of those things in my life. Okay. And I'm very happy with them. And so seeing like getting some, uh, like stepping away from it and being like, they are, people are finding joy and value and purpose and things in this community. And that's awesome for them. And I don't feel like at this stage in my life, that's adding value to my life. And so I don't have anything against Jesus, but also I think that, um, The Christianity that we know today has been distorted over thousands of years and I don't know that it has really anything to do with what Jesus actually was here on this earth to tell us. Okay. Um, my sense is that there is a, like, you're lucky that you've got purpose and some goals and, but I, I feel like. In the world, there's a purpose deficit kind of going on right now. And so that's, to me, one of the I, I actually before I, cause I was late to, I went to church a little bit, but I didn't become a Christian until my late twenties, but I told my father in law at one point, you know, I'll be a more ethical and good person regardless of whether this is bullshit or not. Yeah. Basically. Um, and, and I think just even the pursuit of kind of truth or being a better person with a, with a guidebook a little bit for a lot of people is better than, you know, Pursuit of nothing. Yeah. Or, you know, if, if, if God isn't real, then the state is Mm-Hmm. God. Yep. Right. Which is in my mind is kind of more dangerous. Mm-Hmm. Um, so yeah, talk to me about that. Yeah, I mean, I think that everyone has, you know, obviously I grew up in the church, so I have Sure. You, you've got a lens on that too. I have, you know, captured a lot of those values. Someone, um, asked me recently if I, you know. Felt like my time growing up in the church like formed who I was today. I was like a hundred percent You can't separate those things But also like it also Was damaging in a lot of ways and in and have a lot of just not trauma big T but trauma little t from the things that I was taught and the things that I was you know expected to be and I think that I'm at the point right now in my life where I'm really benefiting from getting Um, not even seeking knowledge from other places, but also learning to trust myself a little bit more and to seek knowledge and intuition, like, from, like who I am and not always be looking to someone else to tell me who I should be. Um, because growing up perspective, yeah, you were always kind of posturing for not posturing for, but you were told with an eye toward what other people were going to think in this regard or whatever. You're supposed to feel this way or, you know, doing this is, is wrong or doing this is good. And so. Not really told you're taught to distrust your intuition like yourself because that's You're inherently evil Being that God is constantly, you know at war with trying to to realign turn you around. Yeah Coming out of that and being like wait like you're not I can trust myself and I can trust myself to make decisions for myself without needing to consult a higher power and without needing to listen to my white male pastor and without needing to, you know, read, you know, a bunch of religious books also by white men. And like, I can find my own, um, like my own, um, Like, thoughts. Kind of North Star or whatever. And really, and not, not to say that there isn't a place for guidance and wisdom from many other people, but when there's, you know, you're in a religion that tends to focus on the wisdom of a few, and it really, like, coming out of that, you feel a little bit lost. Well, I think religion done right, like the Bible, is superior to, like, the preacher, even though a lot of preachers would rather have them preach. their opinions and thoughts be more superior. But I think done right, really just people shouldn't think in that way. Sure. But it doesn't does happen. Um, one more question on that topic. Has that been like, I assume probably your parents and your family are still kind of faithful followers or whatever. Has that been challenging that relationship or, or maybe they've slipped away some as well or still pretty religious. Um, and Um, I would say only a few people in my family know for sure that I've left the church because I just don't talk about it because I, you know, also like I am really Not trying to bring anyone down with me. Yeah, I'm trying to make decisions for myself. Yeah, that makes me Healthy and happy and so I don't need to convince anyone else to you know, I'm happy to share my experience, but I'm not like I also read like for me viewing the church as like a community center a sense of purpose and and peace and Um, that has value. So like, okay, if they're, you know, getting value out of that and if that provides them with, um, you know, those structures in their life. I'm really not here to judge it as being like wrong or harmful. It's just like, I have found other ways to meet my needs, the other, outside of that, that don't, um, come with the same consequences that, that came with. So, um, I, I think that, you Some of my family members don't even, don't know. Well, they're probably not subscribers of the local experience podcast either. I mean, it's not, it's also like, I've been thinking about this a lot. It's not a secret, but also I have so much other things going on. Yeah. You don't have that much brain space attributed to it in the moment. It seems that's also a conscious choice. Like I, when I. left the church, I was angry about a lot of things for a long time. And, you know, anytime something else would come up about, um, you know, that touched on religion and, and some of the, the trauma kind of society interaction stuff, they're angry again. And so I just had to make a really conscious choice to say, you know what, I'm leaving this instead of trying to keep one foot in the community. Yeah. And be like, you know, but it shouldn't be this way. I just had to decide, you know what I'm. I'm leaving, um, this pretty like definitively, um, and not because I want my life to change, but because like a lot of people paint, like people who left the church is like, Oh, they want to go off and sin or they want to go off and do all these other things and change their lifestyle. My, my life didn't change. Um, in a big dramatic way. It just, I want to stop being angry about all of these things. I want to stop being hurt by all of the ongoing, um, um, things that. intersect, uh, Christianity with, um, shit going down in the world. And so it just was kind of a, uh, it was a really conscious decision to say, I'm going to. Set this down at least for now. Yeah, interesting. So, um, thanks for sharing. So authentically, by the way, I know it's a sensitive topic But you know people aren't supposed to talk about and business people, especially The loco experience is our final segment. That's your craziest experience that you would care to share Could be a moment could be a week Could be a year in the life. I don't know. What was a crazy experience from your journey? Um, specifically Fort Collins related or whatever. You could have fallen off of a waterfall in Virginia, as far as I know, or been kidnapped in a 4 H, uh, scandal in middle school. I don't know. Some kind of a crazy experience along the way. Um, Oh man, I feel like I've lived a pretty like standard life. Not too excited. I do. Um. Uh, have been pushing myself to do more out there things. Um, one of which is I at, at 30 years old picked up a combat martial arts sport. And so I have done, um, a couple, uh, Muay Thai scrimmages at this point, which Um, I wouldn't say it's like, it's not like a surprise experience because I actually signed up for it. Yeah. Also, it's definitely one of my like, um, I guess I've always had kind of an extreme like push myself like I did ran a marathon like different things, but when you are Talking about like picking up a new skill and then also like competing in it and not as a 12 year old. Have you gotten your bell rung real good yet or anything like that? Um, yeah, on occasion. But, uh, working hard to protect the brain since that is what, you know, Right. That's the money maker. But, yes. For some reason, I've got, uh, Mike Tyson, uh, in my ear right now. You know the line I'm thinking about? No. Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Yes. Yes. That's true. I mean, you can't remember your plan. Is it something you're going to keep doing for a while? Like, do you want to get competitive with it? Are you, uh, you look pretty tough, frankly, like just physically, uh, fit and capable of probably whooping me if I, uh, Liftin up dogs. Um, I think I will definitely continue with it for a while. I've done two Scrimmage fight. So not, not like anything on my record, but a good way to get tested out in the ring. Um, and how did those go? May I ask? The first one I got my ass kicked. I was bruised, um, purple from my shoulder to my, just not able to really defend against those kicks. The person I was up against was way better than I was. Um, and also a Southpaw and I'm an Orthodox fighter. So she just, you know, nailed me over and over and over with her. Um, and it was my first time in the ring. I was extremely hard chins. Um, like nervous and defensive, cautious. Um, so I definitely ate a lot of kicks, um, on that, um, in that nine minutes. And so my, but my sec, I got back on the horse, you know, four, five months later. And. Not only had much more like had been training, you know through all of the things that I didn't do all the first time but also was Matched up the more evenly matched and did a lot better landed some great like stomach teeps. Okay got my stomach teeps Teeps. It's like a straight kick straight to the, yes. So I had, uh, the videos show a couple great like deliveries on my part in that in regard. And so I was much, I was able to get back in the gym like the next day. It felt a lot better. Yes. I'm sure. So it makes it like, Hey, I'll do this some more. If I get a bonus. butt whooping every time. I'm not going to do it for long. Well, um, I guess where do people find, uh, you either, you know, LinkedIn, Insta, where, where do you, where are you at mostly? So, um, I'm at summitdogtraining. com at summit dog training on Instagram, um, at, or slash summit dog training on Facebook. Um, and my personal accounts will pop up there, you know, occasionally. Um, but a lot of my business, businesses. Stuff is the easiest to find. I am on LinkedIn, but I'm not very. How does a new customer start usually? Do they just like fill out the contact form a lot of times or just call? Yeah, so there's a couple options We do have a contact form on our website, but we also have the option to book a 15 minute free call with our admin team and that's a great way to just get kind of a overview of Our services and how they might interface with your goals. If you see a really high needs client and your sniffer says this is going to be a tough one. Do you have somebody else that you refer those customers to? I mean, we, we help a lot of clients and all different needs, but we do pride ourselves on maintaining a really robust relationship with a lot of other awesome trainers and veterinary resources and dog walkers. And so we have like a big referral list. So if we're not the right person to help you, we, uh, Definitely. We'll let you know. And we will send it to someone who that's really cool. I bet you have more dog industry contacts than just about anybody. I know we have a big, big network, big dog bone mailing list. Yes. Awesome. Well, Hey, Amber, I sure appreciate being here. It's been a joy to chat and, uh, I'm looking forward to our next conversation. Yeah. Thanks for having me. All