Intro
Welcome to the podcast Help to Grow Talk, where we talk about growing your communication skills. How can you better communicate, and change the way you live, work, interact with others, and help make the world a better place?
Michael Rain
"If you are going to exchange ideas and truly understand what someone is saying and you also want to be understood: it's key to be receptive."
Desiree Timmermans
You just listened to our guest, Michael Rain. Michael founded Inodi, a media and research company focused on all people with immigrant backgrounds. His TED talk, What's it like to be the child of immigrants has over 1 million views. Michael is also a practitioner in residence at Harvard University.
In this episode, we talk about the importance of conversational receptiveness, a crucial communication skill that involves engaging thoughtfully with opposing views.
My name is Desiree Timmermans, your podcast host.
Let's go.
Desiree Timmermans
Michael, welcome to the podcast. And thanks for taking the time to talk about conversational receptiveness.
Michael Rain
Thank you for having me. I am excited.
Desiree Timmermans
Michael, what is conversational receptiveness? And why is it an important communication skill?
Michael Rain
So, receptive conversation is about being ready, willing, and able to actually listen to what someone is telling you.
And the reason it's important is because communication doesn't happen without it. Right? If you are just talking and no one is listening, then that's a broadcast. That is not a conversation. And, if you are going to exchange ideas and truly understand what someone is saying and you also want to be understood, it's key to be receptive. And it's also how you get someone to listen to you: is to listen to someone else. So it's very important.
Desiree Timmermans
Yes, I absolutely agree with you. So, if I hear you well, then conversational receptiveness is about sincerely trying to engage with people but also to understand.
Michael Rain
Exactly.
So it's to understand what someone's actually saying and putting aside our assumptions and biases. Most people listen to respond instead of to understand. And, when you listen to respond, you are just waiting for someone to say particular words or keywords, and then you just say what's already in your mind, which is a very different state of mind. It's a very different relationship with speaking to someone. But if you are receptive, you're listening to what they're saying, which would require you to think about what they're saying, which creates that silence that should happen after someone stops speaking before you speak.
And it also stops you from interjecting and interrupting somebody because you're listening to what they're trying to say, which improves the experience for that person as well. And I'm sure people are thinking about talking, and people being ready to talk and interrupt and cut off, and it's because they're not listening to you. They're not being receptive to what you're saying. And this disrupts the whole thing. It's wasting everyone's time.
Desiree Timmermans
Yes, wasting everyone's time. And that happens a lot.
Michael Rain
Yeah. It happens in conversation, it happens even in email, you know, however we communicate. And, unfortunately, in a lot of parts of our lives in this modern world where people are polarized or in this constant conflict, a lot of it is because people are assuming they know what someone is going to say based on their assumptions and biases, and whatever box they put them in. And it's just counterproductive.
Desiree Timmermans
Yes, I agree. And the reason we jump to conclusions is something you shared with me: the ladder of inference. Can you tell us more about that model?
Michael Rain
So, the ladder of inference is a theory that basically highlights that we're all looking at our particular vantage point on a ladder. So, we're actually seeing it differently. And we're not having the same conversation if we are, at different parts of the ladder and not understanding that someone else is looking at a different height than we are.
It's hard for us. Right? If we're looking at something and think it's the truth from where we're standing, and if someone is telling us something different than what we see, it becomes like a conflict. But, if we keep in mind that people are at different points of that ladder, people are at different points of your life, people are at different points of context and understanding, that openness creates the space for us to communicate. It's a reminder that even though we might have all the same facts, we might be looking at a different angle or with different expertise.
Desiree Timmermans
Okay. And what is, then, exactly the goal of conversational receptiveness? Because sometimes, I think people are not at all interested in what you have to say. They just want to provide their message, and they expect you to do something with it—and that's it. So, what is the goal of conversational receptiveness?
Michael Rain
So, for me, the goal is actually understanding people. This is what I enjoy, you know, I'm a storyteller because I love listening to stories; that is my thing. I do it out of enjoyment because understanding someone else's perspective gives me more to think about and engage with.
But someone who works in what I would call the persuasion industry: if you want to persuade someone to consider your ideas, to adopt your ideas, to change the way they think, you first must be receptive in the conversation to increase the likelihood that someone will be receptive to what you're saying.
And I can share a quick example with you. So, in the colloquium talk, I mentioned to you earlier, the presentation was on the research I've done on private messaging groups and close WhatsApp groups and all of this alarming COVID-related content that I saw. And, I was explaining to people that the content shared in those spaces is really important because the trust level is high: those are self-selected communities with a strong identity group. So one of my colleagues was speaking about that time during COVID - and kept coming across a ton of people who had anti-vaxxer thoughts about it - and asked: how could she have gone about presenting facts and evidence and helping them see what their thinking is incorrect? And, my response to that is that you have to engage this person to understand why they think what they're thinking. You can't start with: this person is wrong, and I have the facts, and I want to show you the facts. This is going to fail, right?
Desiree Timmermans
Because then you don't get a connection.
Michael Rain
Yeah, you don't get a connection.
And also, you are assuming that you're right. There's a possibility that this person knows something you don't. But you just open the conversation. You ask them: Okay, why do you think this; why don't you trust this? And then you understand that maybe they don't trust the sources that you trust. And they have a legitimate reason for not trusting those sources, or they have a personal history with vaccination. There might be a story in their family.
And then, when you understand what they value, you understand what's informing their point of view. But you've also created this space of trust. So now they're willing to listen to you because you've listened to them. You've taken the opportunity to understand.
So now you can share: okay, I disagree with you because this is why I believe in this evidence. Here's my relationship with it. And it's more likely that they'll not only listen to you. They might adopt what you're saying - if you're making a persuasive point that makes sense. And what makes it more powerful is that you are going through that process with that person. If they do change their mind now, they're going to be even more effective in convincing people who used to think like they did. But you first have to start by listening and understanding and not coming up with assumptions, which is very hard for people. And I find it very hard for people who think of themselves as experts: it's hard for them to have that stance.
Desiree Timmermans
But sometimes it's so hard because you think you are really right. And then, if somebody has another opinion, you already get frustrated by listening to this person. So it's also about self-control. If we want to improve, what steps can we take to become more conversational receptive?
Michael Rain
So, you have to practice having conversations with people. People that you know, trust and love, or practice having that receptive conversation with someone you like. And be mindful of yourself. You could also let someone know that this is something that you're working on. You could say: we're going to have this conversation, and I just want to let you know that I want to get better at listening. So if I start to fidget or I start to interrupt, you can point these things out to me that I might not be aware of. Just put it forward and be honest.
You just have to be very intentional with practicing. And you can, you know, set limits, like; if you can't go beyond three minutes with someone, then three minutes is your initial goal.
Desiree Timmermans
Start small, and you work from there.
Michael Rain
But part of the key is that if you find someone you like talking to—someone you see as a good listener—you can also engage with them and observe what they're doing when you're talking.
Practice is the key. And a lot of it is letting go of your biases and leaving some space that you're not right. And I know that this is difficult based on the topic. If the conversation is about someone's faith, they're not going to leave room. It's very, very difficult. But you have to at least leave room that someone can see it differently than you do - which is why the ladder of influences is very important. But I would encourage people to practice with people that they trust. And then ultimately be brave enough to have these conversations with people whom they haven't built trust with.
It's important because this is what's ruining our social fabric, at least in the United States - I can only speak for that - is that our trust is diminishing in all these ways, but at the core of it is because we're not even listening to what each other are saying. We're responding to biases back and forth. Everyone just keeps shouting because they think if I'm louder, people will hear me, and no one's listening.
Desiree Timmermans
So, it's also about the words you use during a conversation. That's also something that you can practice. For instance, if I already start with 'you are wrong' instead of 'oh, I think like this, let me hear what do you think about it?' Why do you think like that? So, it's also about asking questions—being interested in somebody.
Michael Rain
Asking questions is key. It's also about, like, stopping and saying: okay, let me make sure I understood what you said. And repeating back to the person in your own words what you heard to make sure that you have restated their argument in a way that they can hear. And that's not only for them to understand that you've heard them. That's also for you because if you can't restate that person's argument in a - quote, unquote - fair way without putting your spin and bias because you're angry, emotional, or manipulative about it, then you are part of the problem in this conversation. So, the self-awareness part is really important. And yes, this is not an easy skill. Your goal should just be getting better at it. And I don't think any of us are excellent in receptive conversation. And, we are never fully a hundred percent aware of ourselves. There's always something else to discover about yourself. And, hopefully people will discover that they actually enjoy listening to people. That's my hope.
Desiree Timmermans
So, putting aside your assumptions - it sounds so simple, but how can you do that: put aside your assumptions?
Michael Rain
I guess it depends on why you can't put it aside. A lot of it is context dependent, right? Because if someone's asking you to put aside your assumptions about something that you have lived experience and you know, that person doesn't - then it's like: if someone is talking to me about Brooklyn, who's I've only been there for a week and speaking definitively about a place I lived all of my life. It's going to be difficult for me to listen because they're going to start with so many assumptions. But if I want to be persuasive, I have to exercise that discipline.
When we do role plays with people and we have them engage in conversations and take different sides, people find it really tough. And a lot of it can be cultural in terms of the dynamics of conversation and who you're talking to as well. But you just have to be persistent. To me, the core is that you set your priority as I want to understand this person - rather than I want to prove my point, I want to be right, I want to change their mind. All of the other things are more likely to happen if you make that your North Star or your key goal.
Desiree Timmermans
But that also implies that you take the time to have a conversation with someone. For instance, in organizations they have a lot of meetings, and it needs to be discussed in 15 to 20 minutes: how do you cope with that?
Michael Rain
I always ask for people for one-on-one time. If someone says something that I would like to persuade them about, then I think I need more context. I will ask them for more one-on-one time, but I will set the table as I want to understand better what you said. I just want to understand your perspective. I didn't get it in the meeting; we didn't have enough time.
Desiree Timmermans
You invite them: I just want to understand you better.
Michael Rain
Absolutely. And that sets the space for you to have a more engaging conversation. You have to make the time to do it. It's just as important as any other work that you do, and it's not wasted time. And I find: the less people who are involved in the talking, the less annoyed people are by having to spend time talking.
Desiree Timmermans
But also what you said, social media, messages, apps: it's very short messages. It's to get your point across in 240 characters or something like that. So, what kind of influence does this have on our society?
Michael Rain
Well, I guess it's two parts. It depends on how good a writer you are because some people can get their ideas across in very short, concise, and friendly ways. And I find that having people write something makes them more considerate in how they are delivering. Sometimes people want to - quote-unquote - pick your brain or pitch an idea, and they say: oh, I find it easier to talk than write. But, in reality, they're just blowing everything out of their mouths in an unstructured way that puts the burden on the person listening to make sense of it. Whereas, if they actually had to write it down, then they would have to put in the work to organize it. So, it depends on the mode of conversation.
The receptive conversations, to me, are more about an actual community of people. Whether that community is your work, your school, or your local community - people who have relationships with each other will be more likely to be invested in putting in the time and having a real conversation.
Desiree Timmermans
I understand. What I really like is to invite someone to talk about a specific topic or what you observed or didn't understand. That is an open way of starting the conversation and understanding better: what is going on?
Do you have for me an example demonstrating successful conversational receptiveness?
Michael Rain
I'll share this example. So I had a conversation with an associate colleague in the tech industry space who, when he heard the term diversity, only thought of it as an operation to get unqualified people in or people who lower the bar. And didn't see or perceive that people's actual identity itself is a value to have that informs your business. The examples that I was sharing were things that he had never thought about. So a lot of these platforms, whether it's Twitter or LinkedIn or just starting tech companies - very common story - not a lot of women involved at the companies.
And there were not a lot of women involved in how they went about privacy and security. And because you didn't, you have a huge blind spot because women are just more likely to be receptive of stalker behavior, harassment, and all these other things. Clearly, they're going to understand better than you what features you should have to protect people because they are more affected by this. Something as simple as on LinkedIn, being able to control who can see your full name, your picture, and all these other things, then doesn't come across as someone who's never been stalked or harassed or needed to disguise their identity. But if you have more women involved, they're probably more likely to have experienced this. These things will come to their mind. It is the same with anyone who has any kind of disability. And thinking of accessibility: if you have these folks in the room when you're making the decision on your product or your service, incorporate their suggestions - it makes it better for everybody. One of the most common features I use on my phone is speech-to-text, which was not created for my convenience. There are some people who absolutely need it, but it's a huge benefit to me. And a lot of things work this way.
So, he was convinced by that. We saw it in a different way: that people's actual lived experiences and identities mean that they have a different experience, which means that there is a different and broader perspective that they can bring into the room when you acknowledge that.
Desiree Timmermans
Yes. What I hear is that you also make it safe for the person to talk about it. It's not wrong when you have assumptions or don't know something. So, when you can express that in a safe place, then it's also easier to be more receptive.
Michael Rain
Absolutely. That's the inclusion part of DI. You can't just ask someone to come. You have to make sure that you are also making it a comfortable place for them to stay because, you know, all this thinking, like, will this person fit into my culture? They should be thinking what can this person add? And if they're adding, then we have to make them comfortable enough to share that, right? To actually impact what we're doing: to make it better.
And these are the receptive conversations I've been having with people. To have them think about this in a different way. When I start by listening to understand why they think what they think, it's an interesting experience watching their minds blown at the assumptions that they make that they realize are wrong. If you don't think diversity is a value, you should be receptive to hearing why other people believe it is. Especially if you're saying this is unfair practice, then you should think about fairness and be fair in this conversation and put in that effort.
Desiree Timmermans
Also, being receptive is being open to hearing other perspectives and assuming you can be wrong or it's possible that you didn't see or don't know something.
Michael Rain
Sometimes, it's hard for people to open the space to hear somebody, take it in, and understand it. I'm happy to hear someone's different perspective because, many times, it clarifies why I believe what I believe, just in understanding why. But for a lot of people, it's hard.
Let's pick something super controversial. If they believe in a woman's right to choose, then it's really difficult for them to listen to someone else's views on abortion. If you really believe abortion is murder and life begins at conception - it's going to be very difficult for you to create the space for someone to tell you something different. But these are things that we have to do because we all have to live in this world, and we can't kill each other over things. Hopefully, we are in a place where we can solve problems, compromise, and at least understand why people think what they think.
Desiree Timmermans
Well, it also depends on the relationship you have with somebody. When you know each other, it's easier to put your assumptions aside and really listen to another perspective or life experience, which gives you insights into why somebody is thinking like that. And then it even can be that you are both right based on your experience. It's not that you're wrong and I'm right or the other way around. It can be both.
Michael Rain
Yeah. There's a binary problem: that people do think I'm either right or wrong, and this person is right or wrong. You both could be right, and you both could be wrong. The binaries are a problem.
And to your point earlier, Arthur Brooks says this all the time: if you have two people with opposing views, and you start the conversation with both of them, describing their children to each other, they're way more likely to have a productive conversation than not. It's like one of the best ways to humanize somebody. And you're just more likely to listen to them.
Desiree Timmermans
So, what you're telling me is to look where you are alike instead of looking at the differences. Where are you alike, do you have children, etc?
Michael Rain
Where you are alike, but also just hearing someone talk about the child makes them a human being. It makes them relatable as like a soul, and that impacts people.
Desiree Timmermans
And, when you have your perspective and listen to other perspectives, then something can evolve, and you can discover even a new perspective, solution, or way to handle things. That's what I really like about being receptive.
Michael Rain
And that's probably because you're invested in being a persuader. And I wish more of us were. If people understand that being a persuader is about opening up people to think differently and not necessarily trying to force them to think the way you think, maybe more people would invest in these tools.
Desiree Timmermans
And now we are talking about tools. If listeners would like to know more about conversational receptiveness, what do you recommend to them?
Michael Rain
Well, I definitely recommend that they look up two of my colleagues, Julia Minson and Rob Wilkinson, who are both at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. They are receptive conversation leaders, generally at the Kennedy School. I would highly recommend that you read their literature or watch their videos and start practicing. It's like exercise: I don't know how everyone feels about working out, and it can be really hard in the beginning, but after a while you like it, and then you'll notice that it improves your life and your health. Receptive conversations will improve your relationship's health. You have the ability to create trust with more people. It's fantastic.
Desiree Timmermans
And it's a two-way communication.
Michael Rain
Absolutely.
Desiree Timmermans
We are already coming to the end of the podcast, but is there anything you would like to share with the listeners that I didn't ask you yet?
Michael Rain
I'll share this: the part of my work that deals with receptive conversations comes out of the core of my work, which is being a storyteller. And I love stories: every human being on the planet communicates in stories in some way. And this perspective will help you find this more enjoyable. What someone's telling you is not something that you have to adopt and change in your own life. You just have to listen; it can be an enjoyable experience if you think about it that way. So, I hope you all take the storyteller's approach to a receptive conversation.
Desiree Timmermans
Well, thank you for this great advice.
So, Michael, thank you very much for this talk about conversational receptiveness. It was really interesting.
Michael Rain
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Outro
Thanks for joining another episode of the Help to Grow Talk podcast. For more information and episodes, subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcast and visit: helptogrowtalk.buzzsprout.com.
Tune in next time!
