The Manifestation lab
Intuitive Decision Making for Life & Business with The I Ching & Other Divination Systems with Rhonda Leifheit
Unlock the timeless wisdom of the I Ching with our esteemed guest, Rhonda Leifheit, who brings over 50 years of experience to our conversation. Discover how this ancient Chinese divination tool, also known as the Book of Changes, can guide you in understanding the human condition, making decisions and taking aligned action. From the principles of yin and yang to the concept of synchronicity, Rhonda shares her profound wisdom and personal anecdotes, offering a rich tapestry of knowledge that spans decades of practice.
Learn the practical applications of the I Ching, including step-by-step guidance on the coin method for generating hexagrams and interpreting their meanings. Real-life examples showcase how this tool provides nuanced guidance for important life's choices, emphasizing the importance of patience, respect, and a deeper awareness of our attitudes and actions. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or a curious newcomer, this episode offers invaluable tips and stories that highlight the I Ching's enduring relevance.
Explore the fascinating intersections of the I Ching with other divination systems like astrology and human design, particularly the 64 gates corresponding to the I Ching's hexagrams.
Join us for a conversation rich with insight, guiding principles, and practical advice to help you navigate your life and business with the I Ching and other divination tools.
To connect with Rhonda visit https://www.rhondaleifheit.com
To connect with Kelly visit www.kellyhowe.co or find her on IG or FB @kellyhowecoaching
Unlock the timeless wisdom of the I Ching with our esteemed guest, Rhonda Leifheit, who brings over 50 years of experience to our conversation. Discover how this ancient Chinese divination tool, also known as the Book of Changes, can guide you in understanding the human condition, making decisions and taking aligned action. From the principles of yin and yang to the concept of synchronicity, Rhonda shares her profound wisdom and personal anecdotes, offering a rich tapestry of knowledge that spans decades of practice.
Learn the practical applications of the I Ching, including step-by-step guidance on the coin method for generating hexagrams and interpreting their meanings. Real-life examples showcase how this tool provides nuanced guidance for important life's choices, emphasizing the importance of patience, respect, and a deeper awareness of our attitudes and actions. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or a curious newcomer, this episode offers invaluable tips and stories that highlight the I Ching's enduring relevance.
Explore the fascinating intersections of the I Ching with other divination systems like astrology and human design, particularly the 64 gates corresponding to the I Ching's hexagrams.
Join us for a conversation rich with insight, guiding principles, and practical advice to help you navigate your life and business with the I Ching and other divination tools.
To connect with Rhonda visit https://www.rhondaleifheit.com
To connect with Kelly visit www.kellyhowe.co or find her on IG or FB @kellyhowecoaching
Welcome to the Manifestation Lab. This is your host, Kelly Howe. From the grounded science to the mystical and unseen, we're investigating this big experiment we call life and finding what really works when it comes to manifesting a life that sets your heart and your soul on fire. Welcome to the lab.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Manifestation Lab. I'm so excited to have Aranda Lifehite with me again. She's a returning champion. People loved your episode, aranda, with the Akashic Records, and so I'm really excited to welcome you back. And today we're going to be focusing on the Chinese I Ching or I Ching I'm not sure how you say that exactly, but I really wanted to connect with you specifically because I saw a newsletter go out.
Speaker 2:It's one of the things I love about my podcast guests. I usually get on their newsletters and then I see what they're up to, and you have recently been teaching classes about the I Ching. Yeah, and I do human design readings and we've had human design experts on. Are you familiar with human design? Actually, I'm not, and that's okay. Yeah, no, but the reason I wanted to talk to you is that it is a more recent system, but they bake into it several ancient systems, one of those being the I Ching, and, to be totally honest, I don't know a ton about it. So, because I'm obsessed with human design and love that system, I really want to learn more, and I'm sure my listeners will want to learn more about what the I Ching is. So welcome back and let's just go ahead and start there, like what is the Chinese I Ching and how can we use it? How can it help our life? All right, Thanks, kelly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just wonderful to be with you again and to be able to share principles of the I Ching, which is an ancient Chinese tool of divination.
Speaker 3:Some people say I Ching, but the translation for it is Book of Changes and it is a collection of 64 different pieces of wisdom having a philosophy and purpose, from which it's evolved, which we won't jump right into, but 64 different descriptions of kind of the human condition and as a divination tool, or some would call it an oracle.
Speaker 3:Others think of it as consulting the sage, accessing higher wisdom, which is probably my favorite way of thinking of it. That the I Ching is a tool for striving towards the highest in our actions, our intentions, by following the wisdom of the sage, also known as following the Tao, tao principle of Taoist philosophy, quite simply is the way or the flow. Now it gets more complicated than you know, just the easy way out type of thing, because sometimes to do the right thing may not always feel like the easiest thing. But the I Ching is designed and there are many translations I have several that I use that I like and each of them, or the different translations, each offer an interpretation for what this ancient oracle has been saying, guiding people for thousands of years okay, beautiful and I'd like to say right off the bat I am not a scholar when it comes to the I Ching and there are many scholarly works and there's beautiful complexities within it, but I have been using it for 50 years and it is my go-to.
Speaker 3:It was the first thing I came across as a guide, as a tool, and it has proven to be very reliable. And that's what we want when we think of whether it's a sage, a guide, a therapist or a friend. We want reliability, we want wisdom, we want somebody who's going to keep us on track with the highest integrity.
Speaker 2:Okay, I love that you say that. I was actually just thinking yesterday about how. That's one of the reasons that I love using my tarot cards, because I feel like they're kind of the truth tellers and they show me underlying energies and themes that maybe my conscious mind hasn't really wanted to pay attention to. And I just love that you said that, because I was just sort of pondering that yesterday that it's like having this friend that will tell you exactly what you need to hear, even if you don't want to hear it. Yes, so I want to back up just a little bit. You mentioned that it's a divination tool. So just on the really basic level, could you describe what a divination tool is?
Speaker 3:Well, you might think of it as a way of connecting with the divine, with higher order, and it can sometimes people think of divination as predicting the future and in some ways it can be useful for that and we can talk kind of specifically. Some ways it might do that. But as a tool for connecting with the divine it taps us into that principle of synchronicity, which Thoreau and other tools do as well, where we're kind of leaving behind the cause and effect analysis, the hashing that we go through and the pros and cons of a decision, and really turns it over and releases it to this principle of synchronicity which, in using the I Ching typically, or maybe most easily, I should say, is consulted by using three coins, often three pennies, that are tossed six times, and with each throw of the coins you get either a yin line, a feminine line, also called a broken line, or two dashes, or a solid line, a male line, yang summer, those kinds of principles that are behind it, and so it's really based on the dynamics between the yin feminine principle and the yang masculine principle and all the subtleties in between. Okay, it's never just black and white, and again, it's one of the things I love about it because it's not to be used for just yes or no questions.
Speaker 3:Right, if you want to do that, you can flip a quarter and get a yes or no answer, but, as you know, again, with something like the tarot, the I Ching will go deeper, help us see, maybe, the things that we've been ignoring and, in my experience, says it in a very diplomatic way, which a friend or therapist might not be able to say so diplomatically. So, very often for me pondering a question, or what's the best response to a situation, I'll I'll read the answer and it's like, oh yes, of course, it's like it's obvious when I settle in and ask for that wisdom, but until then I might be, you know, in turmoil. So okay, so if we're going to use the coins.
Speaker 2:When you talk about it being yin or yang, are you looking at? So say, do you decide like, heads is yin, tails are yang? Or how do you decide if you have three coins? How do you know if it's a line, a solid line, or a broken line?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there are instructions in each of the books and some show it a little differently than others, so it might be a little bit more complex. To try and describe the way I learned it tails have a value of three, heads have a value of two, and then you add them up and they produce either a solid yang line or a yielding broken yin line. And then you layer them one on top of the other for those six throws. That gives you six lines. And then you look up in the book to see which of the 64 readings Because there are six lines those are called hexagrams you look up in the book to see which of the 64 readings that sit, because there are six lines those are called hexagrams. So that's where that term comes from. I really just discovered that the technical word is the Chinese word is KWA, k-w-a, but I didn't know that. I've always known as hexagrams, but the Chinese term is guo.
Speaker 2:Okay, so each of these numbers, there's six different lines, and three of them are yin and three of them are yang. Am I understanding this?
Speaker 3:right. No, they can be any combination and that's how you get the 64. Okay, Any combination of three solid lines and then three yin or broken lines, or alternating and that sort of thing. And so there's a chart in the back by which you know after throwing the coins that's the part when I teach a class that kind of requires a little hands-on, a little explanation there. Some books are better at kind of guiding people as to how to use, throw the coins and get the answers than others.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I came across some, some websites too that had some like you just click and it will roll or it will.
Speaker 2:It will throw the coins for you and kind of show you what it is and give you the message. So I don't know. I mean, in my opinion I'm kind of I kind of think that electronically, spirit can, can communicate with us very easily. So I'm kind of like, well, sure, why not? But there is something about having the physical thing and doing the physical thing with the physical cards or the coins or whatever.
Speaker 3:So and I have known people to go online, get some useful answers, but of course, when I, because of the way I learned it and I do love, you know, holding those coins sitting with it, that sort of thing. Now I should say the original way of divining or utilizing, accessing the I Ching was through 50 stalks of yarrow and these yarrow flowers are on a long, thin stem. It's a more complicated way to go at it, it's more time-consuming. I learned it once but I really don't remember how. So I do go back to the coins.
Speaker 3:But if you want to get very authentic and to prove my point, many years ago I had somebody call me and he was wanting to learn about the I Ching. And somebody told him to call somebody in the Chinese language department at the nearby university, and so he called the Chinese language department, talked to a man who is obviously Chinese, asked him about well, I'm interested in doing this, and he said well, the first thing you do is grow the yarrow. And he said well, the first thing you do is grow the yarrow. Now, it takes a few years for the yarrow stocks to come off, and I just thought it was a beautiful illustration of the respect for that process and the timing, and so I really I think that was a wonderful illustration the patience, yes, that I struggle with sometimes.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, Absolutely. And then I told him about the pennies you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, so you found this system right out of the gate. What did that look like for you? How did that drop into your life?
Speaker 3:You know, at the time I'd moved from where I grew up in Northern Illinois out to Palo Alto, california. This was the early seventies and I do not know who it was, I don't recall who introduced me to it and I didn't keep a record of my readings. I started doing that in 1983. So I have journal after journal after journal of the readings I've done since 1983, but not since the early 70s.
Speaker 3:That first translation, I believe, was the only English translation available at the time. It was called the Wilhelm Baines edition edition and it was kind of underwritten by Carl Jung, or he had connections and he had utilized the I Ching and found it very helpful and very wise. In fact, of course, he coined the term synchronicity as we understand it, and just yesterday, synchronistically, I got an email from someplace with this quote from carl jung synchronicity is an ever-present reality for those who have eyes to see it. So, yes, so that's how I got started. I utilized it then, and then somebody, when I moved to St Louis, when I got here, somebody introduced me to a new translation, a new friend. I don't know them very well, but I do find that one of the references I go to a lot that translation.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what kinds of things initially did you utilize it for? And have kind of that aha moment of like, oh wow, there's really something to this.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, very good question. The range of usefulness is really broad and I've used it for very mundane questions about is it a good time to take this trip to travel somewhere? Is it a good time to start this new class a different topic good time to start this new class, a different topic? If I'm really baffled, you know, maybe it's like, well, is this the best time of day to teach it? Now, a lot of times we're going to make decisions without that right, but there are those times where you just feel like something's, you know you need some outside help. So those are some mundane ways of using it.
Speaker 3:I've got one or two examples that I can give, but also very helpful in personal understanding of the best way to proceed, maybe in a difficult relationship or a big choice that we have to make in our lives. Relationship or a big choice that we have to make in our lives. One client who came to me had been professor at a university and she'd been there a number of years and was thinking of leaving, and so we did two different readings. One was what's the advisability of leaving this position? And then we asked also what's the advisability of staying? And sometimes you need to do that. I don't remember what the answers were. I know she ended up leaving believing, but sometimes you can ask it from both angles. So the deeper questions, I think, are really important, where you find the greatest wisdom, where the I Ching really shines in terms of correcting our attitudes. Because the wisdom of the I Ching again brings us back to what in the earliest translation was called. They called it the lower self, the ego, the childish, wanting or the fearful, distancing or barricading or whatever. And so the I Ching does really shine, I find when I'm asking questions like how do I best respond to this person, this dilemma, this situation, that has me just baffled.
Speaker 3:Now I'll give you an example of just kind of a mundane use and think of the itching like this. I like to think of it really like a weather report. It's not really telling you yes or no, do this, don't do this. It gives you the conditions. So let's say I want to take a trip from St Louis back up to northern Illinois, it's wintertime and I get a weather report that says, ooh, snow is in the forecast, maybe one to five inches, or something like that. Now I get to decide do I just want to stay home or do I want to tackle it? Do I want to do it? If I want to do it, I know the conditions.
Speaker 3:So the I Ching is also kind of the way of saying okay, fill up the gas tank, take some extra food, maybe some sand, a shovel or whatever you might need, and so that's really what the I Ching is doing. It's not saying go, don't go, do this, don't do that, but giving you the subtles and the way to best handle it. So if you're thinking about making a change, maybe somebody's looking at a different job or something like that, and you might get a reading that says difficulty at the beginning, a reading that says difficulty at the beginning. So what you know is, presuming you make that move, you're like, okay, I know it's going to be rough at the start, but it's telling me how to handle that. Maybe don't push too hard, don't be too anxious, take your time, and then things will begin to unfold. So the the wisdom of just knowing how to best act in those situations Now, um, I love this.
Speaker 2:I love it Every bit of this.
Speaker 3:So early on. Um, uh, this was in the early nineties and I was in a relationship and my brother was working for TWA, when it still existed. So my partner and I got buddy passes to go to England, to go to London, London, and so we're all excited about that trip. And then my brother calls like a week before we're supposed to leave and he said Rhonda, I'm kind of worried, because when you're coming back is when those buddy passes end. A lot of people may be coming back, could get backlogged. You could end up paying $1 thousand dollars to get back.
Speaker 3:And I was back in the early nineties, you know, and the buddy pass was pretty cheap. So so my friend and I are like, well, what do we do? So he and I did an itching reading where we alternated, alternated throwing the coins Now I don't even know if this is recommended but we asked what's the advisability of going on the dates we've chosen? And the answer was number 41, called decline, and so as we read it, it really, really didn't look good. But I wasn't ready to let go of that trip quite yet. So it's kind of like, well, what if we change the dates a little bit, Come back a little earlier and what I got then was 33 retreat, which means just pull back.
Speaker 3:And then it changed to stagnation and that idea of just sitting, nothing happening, and it's like. So he and I and he had been using the I Ching for a while too, enough to trust it. We're like you know what, let's not do it. We scrapped that trip completely. We asked about going to the Redwoods I don't remember what came up, but it looked much better out to, I should say, San Francisco and took a drive up into the Redwoods and it was a wonderful trip. So we get back a week or so later and my brother says good thing you didn't go. People were stuck at Heathrow Airport and paying big bucks. So that's one example, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a beautiful example. Example it is, and I was going to ask you know, can you kind of feel out different timelines and different plans? And it sounds like that's exactly what you did like. Okay, well, but if, but what if we just do this? And the cart and they still were saying no yes this isn't and I know that they weren't saying no, but it was giving you accurate, accurate interpretations of what the energy would be like. Right, right.
Speaker 3:You'd be sitting in the airport for 12 hours you can go, but yes, you're going to sit there for a while. Now one other travel story that I have that was so significant Also, this is going back a while. This is going back a while. One of my nieces living on the West Coast, 17 years old at the time, was having this sudden health crisis and my sister was the only other family member out there. So I really, really wanted to go. I was still able. My brother's still working for the airline, so I'm getting a buddy pass short term, on short notice, to get out there.
Speaker 3:Well, the day before I leave, there was an earthquake in Seattle and my connecting flight was through Portland, and so I called the airline the night before and they said things are really backed up. It is not looking good if you're flying standby. They're really not looking good. And she said you know you can go if you want, but we really can't promise anything. So I got out the I-Ching and threw the coins and what I got was hexagram number 31, which is called attraction, and I'm going to read just some of the lines, because the I Ching says it so much better Keep an open mind.
Speaker 3:Such readiness has a creative effect. Maintain innocence of mind and independence of spirit. This attitude, combined with a willingness to wait through the changes, is in harmony with the creative. It automatically draws the affection and loyalty of others. So I went with my most positive attitude that I could, knowing I might not get on. But the best thing I could do was use that kind of attractive energy. Not only did I get on, but they put me in first class, which they weren't supposed to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so I was able to get out there to see my niece and my sister and things turned out good. But yeah, so that illustrates just how practical it can be that illustrates just how practical it can be.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I love that. I love it so much. So I do this a lot with decision-making, with, like I said, with my Tarot, and I just find, like I said, I just find that it's it's so accurately will show me what the energy of a situation will be in the near future. And I don't know about you, but for me, if it's like I don't like the energy of that specific thing, maybe it's something I have to do. Then I can come back to myself and go okay, what can I do inside to shift this timeline? There, you go?
Speaker 2:Yes, what can I do with my energy? And then, and then surrender to and maybe it will do nothing and I'm still going to end up sitting in that stagnation or whatever it is. But it is just such a like gentle tap on the shoulder to be like, hey, you know, this is what could happen. This is, this is the timeline you're on. Either pick a different path or shift your energy.
Speaker 3:Yes, and that's where the I Ching is like, suggesting how to shift the energy. So very often when I'm consulting the I Ching, formulating the question is a big part of it right, and in an instance like maybe the well for that flight, I might say what's the advisability of going ahead? But another good question is what is the best attitude or approach to take with this person, with this situation, so that, yes, there is that inward capacity to adjust and adapt, knowing there are just things we can't control except inwardly? Yes, so I want to be sure and say that the I Ching is a lot about timing, because it's based not only on the yin-yang of the yin principle shows up as winter, the yang principle shows up as summer, and then when you combine yin and yang, then you get spring and fall, and then you can break it out further. So the spring and fall constitute, if you put two lines together and then you can put three lines together, you get images, what the the Chinese call images of the mountain or thunder or these various images, and they all convey something.
Speaker 3:But the underlying sense of it is like is this the right season? And if it is the right season, you know. So not only is it timing. It's like what's the best approach then? Okay, it's planting season and or it's time to approach this person to do that. The I Ching is also beautiful in its balance of the yin and yang, and I think in the Western world we don't nearly appreciate yin principle, the feminine principles of inwardness, of waiting, of being patient, of allowing things to unfold. So very often the I Ching is going to be or just as equally I should say going to be telling somebody hold on or go inward and just wait.
Speaker 2:Yes, I, I completely agree, and I think so much of that has to do with being trained out of listening to our intuition so early and doubting that inwardness, going inwards for those inner messages, but also honoring that, that space, in that time when the gas isn't on and it shouldn't be because we are in a time where we're we're resting, we're preparing, we're rejuvenating and getting ready for that big young period. But our culture is so like go, go, go, go, go, make it happen.
Speaker 2:Do something, even if it's wrong. Don't, don't sit, don't wait. You know, make it happen to do something, even if it's wrong, don't, don't sit, don't wait. You know, make it happen, make it happen. And it all ties into that to that, you know, very feminine, listening to our intuition and and honoring those cycles of the winter and summer.
Speaker 2:And I know that I'm just as guilty of that as anyone, but I do find I was just writing down and recognizing how much I I just love divination systems and I'm fascinated by them and I just truly feel like they've been life-changing for me in that sense of someone, you know, or this, this system, that can come in and say, hey, like you don't need to push right now, it's not actually in your best interest.
Speaker 2:And I'm really looking forward to diving in and maybe playing with this a little bit, because at this point I think I've worked through the doubt and the resistance and I did a lot of that with working with my tarot cards through the years, you know, and just pulling a card daily and seeing how that showed up, and at this point I'm just like all in. I'm like, yeah, these things, this is real. It is showing us the energy of the situation, whether we like it or not. Um, but I'm excited to have have probably an even older, I would imagine a much, much older, thousands of years old. It is considered to happen to?
Speaker 3:yeah, considered to go back. I've I've read anywhere from 3 000 to 5 000 years. Wow, but started with other types of oracles and then evolved through time. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is there anything in the I Ching where there's like a lifetime reading?
Speaker 3:Yes, there is, is there? Yes, and this was I mentioned in my first introduction to the I Ching, the Wilhelm Bain's edition, which I still have. One of the only things written in the back of it was what I call the big picture questions that somebody suggested I do this. I don't know other than this friend of mine. I don't know where this idea came from than this friend of mine. I don't know where this idea came from, but I did these questions and I suggest to people don't ask these questions until you're really ready and trust the I Ching, where you think of it as a reliable guide, where you feel like you can hear the answers it's going to say. So. These questions have been guiding me since 1981, and I continue to revisit them. But this is when I first learned about these big questions you ask about what is my destiny? What? Is my gift, what is my obstacle?
Speaker 3:And what is my gift, what is my obstacle and what is my calling. And for me, my destiny came up as number 20. Now the image of number 20 when you put the lines together, you've got four little broken lines and then two solid lines at the top, which is the image of a tower. And so the idea of being at the top of a tower is that it gives you a broader view of things, and that's really been a guiding principle for me in terms of that sense of destiny. A couple days ago, when I was preparing for this, I of course asked the I Ching if it had any advice for me.
Speaker 3:It came up, number 20, contemplating, so, this is the type of thing that happens where you kind of get reinforcements and messages Just to move through the others. For me, the gift, the message for the gift that I got back then was number 55, abundance or fullness. The obstacle number 53, is called gradual progress, which I attribute to being like a triple Taurus. You know it takes a while.
Speaker 2:The tortoise and the hare type I think we talked about that in the last podcast episode how both of us feel like we've just it's like slow, gradual progress.
Speaker 3:Yes, and to kind of see, okay, this is what I'm dealing with. You know that's helpful. And then for the calling, which is that sense of you know what inspires you and supports you, and that sort of thing it's gathering together, and so, as a teacher, that has made a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that, so those are very useful. Now I have to share this story of a friend of mine Also. This goes back quite a ways. When she did this, her destiny came up, as I forget the number, but it's called marrying maiden and the role of the marrying maiden. When you get that, it's kind of like it describes a concubine who's kind of powerless in a situation. And she called me up and she's like what, this is my destiny.
Speaker 3:Interestingly, I had done past life readings for her previously and one of them she had been a concubine, a secondary wife. So here it was almost this karmic type thing, interesting. And so she's like I don't want this to be my destiny. And I'm like, yeah, I'm with you on that. So I said ask the I Ching how you can change that. And the reading that she got said repair. And basically the message was somehow you've participated in creating this, therefore you are the perfect one to repair it. And indeed she shifted her attitude. She worked on that. Within a couple years kind of met her soulmate partner and it went forward from there. Oh, I love that. And keeping in mind that the I Ching is the book of changes, that it's never going to give you an answer that's absolute and solid. Things change and move.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. Oh, I just love it. I can't wait to do more with this. So with each of those big questions that you mentioned, you would throw the coins out six times for each question and then you would come up with and what I'm wondering is I think I've asked you before if you're an astrology person so in human design there's, I believe it's, 64 gates, and I'm thinking that it's these 64. And so, like in an astrology chart, these gates are. You know, you have sort of like an energetic signature and you have gates that are defined, that are going to be strong themes throughout your life, and I do find it to be like shockingly accurate.
Speaker 2:And there's a subconscious part of this and a more conscious part, and specifically with the subconscious part, I find it to be really, really useful for people to look at, like, what do I have going on deeper that I haven't quite uncovered and I think this is how they baked in the itching. So I'm going to have to do more looking into that to be sure. So nobody take notes on that, that's just me kind of thinking this through and trying to put together how it is actually baked in. I think there's also something with the profiles that goes together with the I Ching, but that's something for me to look at, oh yeah that all sounds absolutely fascinating.
Speaker 3:Now I'd be remiss especially if people who are listening are familiar with the I Ching if I didn't say this. On those big questions, I was told just read the text of the one of 64 readings that you get, but with those various lines, you know each throw of the coins gives you a yin or yang line. Sometimes those are called changing lines. If the coins are all heads or all tails, it's indicative that there's a change that is potentially going to unfold from the situation. That is potentially going to unfold from the situation. So to make the I Ching a little bit more complex and in-depth and nuanced, you read whichever lines come up and then that will lead you to a second reading and that's the kind of future probability that comes out of that. Now, with those big questions, I was told you don't look at any of that, you just take the answer, don't look for their lines or the unfolding of that. But I just want to make sure that people understand. Yeah, there's elements to the I Ching that are more complex.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of complexity and depth to this. It sounds like how hard is it for somebody if they're listening, they're like I want to learn this system. How hard is it to get going with?
Speaker 3:it. In a way it's really not that hard. I feel like the best book for instruction. There are others I use, but when I'm teaching a class I'm teaching somebody how to use it. That has the clearest illustration of when you throw the coins, draw this kind of a line and build it like this and, if they change, do this. It's got a little of the history and the background and philosophy. There are other books that have far more in-depth philosophical components to it. That goes deep into Chinese philosophy and some things that people might find in acupuncture and that sort of thing. But most books will, of course, have a pretty basic explanation of how to use it. But it can get confusing for people. They have to remember to draw the lines from the bottom up because you're building a hexagram. So when you throw the coins, the first line is the base of it and then you draw the other lines on top. Sometimes people get confused about that. Yeah, but it's in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So one of the things that I find that can be confusing for people for myself in the past is that when somebody starts using a divination system and they don't necessarily have that trust for it yet, I do think it can create a level of confusion because it's almost like there's a part of us that wants to believe and we're still sort of fighting against it and our ego is like that's not real, doubting, questioning all that, and it can create a lot of confusion. So do you have any advice for people if they wanted to use a divination system, whether it's this one or something else, to lean into that trust or or sort of let go of that doubt? Do you have any recommendations for that?
Speaker 3:There's there's value in the doubt if it can be used properly. Right, and for one thing, different people are drawn to different divination tools, right.
Speaker 3:Some to the tarot, some to angel cards, rune stones. So I think somebody maybe needs to explore them to see what speaks to them. And the other thing is that, as you know, there are various decks of tarot, various kind of interpretations there. Ideally one might just be able to, you know, read the images and get the message. But we need those translations sometimes and that's why I like having several translations of the I Ching. And I'll say to students like, yeah, sometimes if I don't like the answer I'll go to a different translation, right?
Speaker 3:And then I might be able to hear it. It's like another friend says it in a different way. So there's that component too. But you're also right there. There is value to that willingness to kind of say well, my ego doesn't have all the answers.
Speaker 3:And often the ego just wants what it wants. It doesn't want to be told no, this is not the time, no, you need to wait, no, don't speak out to that person at this time. And so that willingness is important. But the I Ching is beautiful in its education of the ego Another translation by Carol Anthony. She does a beautiful job of talking about the ego like a young child, and to me it's much less judgmental In a lot of ways. I hear people talk about the ego and how it gets in the way and that sort of thing she's like well, it's that child part that gets scared, that tries to manipulate to get what it wants because it doesn't understand anything else. It tries to protect itself and, you know, does things to do that. And so the I Ching can give an education on the ego itself. You know the clamoring of that voice and how to to quiet that down.
Speaker 2:For me I think it just took like like solid repetition and seeing how every morning that card would show up during the day, and sometimes it was just like you know it. Just for me it just felt like it took a long time again. The patience was like trusting more and more and more. So I just didn't know if you had any tips or tricks for that I think that's great.
Speaker 3:advice is just give it time, test it over and over again, because you're also kind of learning the language that it speaks and, like any different therapist or wise teacher, uh, the angle or perspective, the voice that it has is going to be a little bit different. Yeah, all trying to get to the truth, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I love that you said to try different systems, because that is a huge piece of it that I think some people, for example my neighbor um, got a set of just the regular tarot cards, like the old school Raider weight, and I've never connected to those. I just don't like energetically, I don't feel drawn to them, I don't feel like I understand them. But I have several decks and I just love that you said that, because different decks feel differently and it's easier to connect for me with angel cards. That feels very resonant and anything that is ancient Chinese feels like it's in me somehow, like there's, there's a remembering. You know I've always joked that I was, you know, like a 99 year old little Chinese man doing acupuncture and you know, I just I feel like that's in me somewhere. It's there's got to be a past life, because it just feels so familiar.
Speaker 2:And so when I learned about the I Ching, I was like, oh how, how has this not come across my path? It just kind of lit something up. I'm 50% Irish, like straight down the middle. I've got a lot of strong Irish in my genes and I thought, you know, I wonder if I really need to lean in experiment with more of the Celtic traditions and even like herbalism and things like that from that lens because it's like in my DNA. I just wonder if I would resonate with it, and so I've just been curious about that. I don't know if you've kind of played with that at all for yourself been curious about that.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you've kind of played with that at all for yourself. Well, I definitely think there's something to the notion that we may be drawn to different systems because of our past lives, and I think that that kind of broad-mindedness is very nice, you know, to imagine it's like the I Ching is not only for people specifically of Chinese descent, or Celtic or Native American or whatever it's like. No, all of these things may be a part of our past history and therefore, yes, a particular approach, philosophy, maybe, with speaking to some part of our soul that may have studied these same tools centuries ago.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, there just might be an ease to stepping into one of these systems that just isn't there for a different one, because it just hasn't been in your past. Exactly, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's, you know, in in these systems that are kind of like a language. It's also not unlike dreams, you know, where dreams kind of have a language of their own and yet we have subjective symbols, you know, in terms of. You know if a dog means loyalty, or if we get bit by a dog, you know as a kid it might mean something else. So the language in these systems is something that we need to familiarize ourselves with and listen to that resonance.
Speaker 2:Is there an older system that you're aware of? I'm just wondering how many systems are actually knowingly or unknowingly built on this consciousness?
Speaker 3:Well, there are said to be divination systems found throughout the world, some places, including prior to this system of the I Ching tortoise shells. They would take a tortoise shell, throw it into the fire and then interpret the way it crackled. Throw it into the fire and then interpret the way it crackled.
Speaker 3:Other systems would use bones that would be maybe thrown into the fire or something like that. And then you also have the classic tea leaves type of thing. So it really speaks to the fact that people have been searching for higher guidance for a long time, feeling baffled, feeling puzzled, feeling stuck or simply just wanting to make sure they're functioning from the highest place of integrity and compassion and generosity, those kinds of virtues. I have one other story I think might be useful to illustrate, because it kind of addresses the usefulness in our human connection and the way the ego can kind of get in there and want to control things. And more recently I was taking a trip again to the West Coast, another niece experiencing a real serious illness, and I got out there, met with her sister. We were staying at an Airbnb and then preparing to visit her sister who had, to our surprise, been released from the hospital and we were anxious to visit because it was just a four-day visit and I got in there Friday. I was going to leave Tuesday, so we were anxious to see her, of course, on Saturday and she just put the brakes on. She was not ready to see us. She just got very quiet when her sister was talking to her on the phone about when we might come and kind of just refused to answer her. And we're like what? And I've come all this way?
Speaker 3:I'd gotten up at 2.30 in the morning to get to an early flight and long layover, and so I was exhausted, mind you, by the time Friday evening rolls around, we're having this conversation and I'm like on the verge of tears going what? And her sister is saying maybe we should just show up. You know, we want to see her. Our intentions, we thought, were pretty good, we wanted to help. And so I thought, oh, I need to settle down here and I brought the third translation I like, which is more portable it's the Brian Brown Walker translation of the I Ching and thankful that I took it with me and the reading I got was conflict and basically it said, in conflict, the best thing to do is withdraw. I'm like, okay, you know, I just sat with that for a minute. I was like, of course this is right.
Speaker 3:And by the next morning or it might have been the next morning when I did that reading and I took a nice long walk along the beach and I'm like I know what we need to do, because we were just outside Sacramento and so the niece that I was staying with her 16-year-old daughter was also there. So the three of us were having a nice time Said you know what? We need to pull back. This is not the time to go visit, let's go into Old Sacramento and make a day of it. And so we had this leisurely, vacation-like day lovely weather, there was some kind of parade a Mardi Gras parade going on, and then the next day we went to visit. The next two days we went to visit. So that was so important because we were kind of like guns blazing type thing and I knew when I read it of course that's the right action, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes we just can't get there because we're like all in our fight or flight.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Like what do I do? What do I do? And we've been triggered and you know, we thought we envisioned something going one way.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:It doesn't go that way. Our mind is still like but this was the way it was going to go. So it's hard to extract yourself and get into that higher self, and what a beautiful way to do that. So do you have special coins? Are there special coins that go with this?
Speaker 3:I do not. I let go of doing that. I have a little collection of pennies but if I'm traveling or something like that, I just hold them in my hand and say a little prayer, you know, kind of to prepare myself. Some people like using the Chinese coins. They vary a lot depending on where you get them. Some are like almost too big and clunky. I've had people say, yeah, it's just too heavy for me. But theoretically you could use any coin, any three coins, but they should be the same three coins, three dimes, three nickels, three pennies yeah.
Speaker 2:Are there any questions that you steer people away from?
Speaker 3:asking.
Speaker 2:Like, for example, just the one that just popped in my head, like, say, somebody really wants to get pregnant, and they're struggling Like, is there anything? Can it go the wrong way?
Speaker 3:Yes, you could ask. I would say I would ask something like I'm having difficulty getting pregnant, what advice can be given? Or you might ask what's the best timing.
Speaker 3:You don't want a yes or no question, you want to find a way to ask in terms of timing, and sometimes I'll say to people you can frame it in the time frame of in the next three to six months. Would this be good? And it's important again because timing does change and that's why people need to be willing to see where it goes but then ask later. Sometimes reformulating the question is better than perpetuating, because sometimes people will say well, what if I ask the same question three times? Will it give me the same answer? And there is actually an I Ching reading that says do not pester the sage. Basically, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a friend that is a tarot reader and we always joke about how, like, if you keep asking the same question, our guides are like'm done with you.
Speaker 3:exactly, I already gave you the answer, exactly, yeah, I in fact, when I first moved to St Louis years ago, I wasn't sure what my next step was going to beI was in some kind of transition, work-wise and or just having moved here, and so so I asked the I Ching what next? And I got the answer stagnation. And I just had to laugh because I'm like well, rhonda, you can't even ask a better question than that, of course, just sit there.
Speaker 2:So that was what I was getting ready to say. Was that it's like? Or getting ready to ask is it? Do these messages come through, kind of in that way, where you're like well, I know like I'm stagnant right now. That's why I'm asking yeah, that too.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Never fails. I'll be like I'm really struggling with this decision. I'm going to pull a card what, like? What is the best? You know? Course of action, or you know whatever my question is and I'll pull the card. In it it will say you are getting ready to make a big decision and you need to sit with it. And I'm like, well, no shit, I know I'm trying to go beyond that. It's so true it's so literal, it's so exact.
Speaker 3:And again the I Ching will kind of like delve deeper into like, what to do with that stagnation and trusting, of course, of um, the the higher level of the universe. Right, we're not at the linear cause and effect level that things are moving and shaping in the cosmos, in the unfolding that we have difficulty seeing because we're so used to causation. That notion of a causal or synchronistic kind of happening is more difficult. But if the I Ching or any system can just remind us, it's like there's, there's a reason, you know, it's like getting stuck in traffic and then finding out down the road there'd been an accident that you might've been in and then finding out down the road there had been an accident that you might have been in If you didn't go. Those types of things sometimes remind us. It's like, okay, maybe there's a reason here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one of the wildest questions a woman asked in class was somebody had been calling her on the phone and hanging up and she wanted to ask. And I always go around there first time and say what's your question? What's your question? And she read the question. I'm like, well, I don't really think it's not going to say Joe Blow is calling. I said but go for it.
Speaker 3:She did the reading. I don't know what the answer was, except that she got an answer. She goes. I know who it is. It's this boyfriend, and for some reason she hadn't arrived at that conclusion until she got that. I Ching reading, so who knows?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think that's part of the magic, as you're saying, that I'm like, yeah, that makes sense, because it's like she got the message that she needed to tap into whatever stream of consciousness to figure that, to solve that problem and get the answer. Yeah, so it's interesting, how you know. Again going back to the cards, because that's the system that I use, it's like there will be like maybe three or four, sometimes descriptions that go with that card, but it's like if you just sit with, like what resonates, it's like, oh, that's what this card is for and it's for this person you know it's for this specific situation whereas maybe the other things don't totally resonate.
Speaker 2:But it's like, oh yep, I know what that's for. Or maybe there's a little um part of the picture that stands out that doesn't normally catch your eye and it's like, oh, my eye is focused on that butterfly. I've never even noticed a butterfly on this card. Well, there's a reason why.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The card is just helping you tap into that field and that information.
Speaker 3:Yeah, excellent point, and it again has, in one of the readings, a sentence or two that didn't stand out before. Yes, and sometimes that's all you need also. You know, kind of like with a dream. Sometimes you don't have to analyze the whole thing. You've got one image that speaks very clearly, speaks volumes. One image that speaks very clearly, speaks volumes. So sometimes it's sufficient to say, oh, I know what it's trying to tell me, that's it, it's a feeling, it's a knowing like.
Speaker 3:That's the message that I was supposed to get Right, and that's how it also educates us on our own intuition. Theoretically, yes, we should be able to just tune in and maybe not need these tools, but I think it educates us as to, oh, that should be able to just tune in and maybe not need these tools.
Speaker 2:But I think it educates us as to oh, that's what that feeling is like when that's the answer or that's the clarity, so true, helping us come home to that and just helping us validate ourselves a lot of times and be like, yeah, I knew that, I knew that I felt that and there, that is Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, so for somebody who I know you've already mentioned several books, would you recommend that workbook? Like if somebody right now is like I want to order a book, I want to get started with this, what would be your first go-to? Yes, the Itching Workbook by RL Wing.
Speaker 3:There's another newer publication called the I Ching Workbook, which is a new one to me. I'm still exploring and getting familiar with it, but RL Wing has good instructions. And then Carol Anthony's book is A Guide to the I Ching. I want to say she might have an update, a newer translation or essays on that. And then Brian Brown, with an E Walker, which is the I Ching or Book of Changes, which is the I Ching or Book of Changes.
Speaker 3:There is another translation which is the most in-depth. It is the Book of Changes and the Unchanging Truth by I'm going to master me NI. Okay, and for somebody who really wants to explore the notion of the philosophy behind it and the complexities of it, I would say his book is a good one in that regard. And um, I took a class with an american who was helping him, master Ni, write that translation and he said the student who was assisting him had observed that even Master Ni didn't always follow the advice of the I Ching and he was kind of teaching his students look, you don't have to follow that advice. But also, sometimes what happens is you don't follow the advice and you wish you had. So we have the free will to make that choice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to share a story really quickly too. I have limited experience with this system, but a few years ago I want to say it was in 2020. Um, I was really in kind of a dark night of the soul space in, I mean, in kind of a lot of ways like outside of the pandemic stuff, there was a lot of like relationship stuff that happened just kind of coincidentally or synchronistically you know with it and then you know as far as my business went.
Speaker 2:I really felt like this was the time that I needed to like step up and make things happen and go, go, go, but at the same time I was just dealing with all kinds of inner stress and turmoil and just dealing with a lot. So I had stumbled across. I don't even remember how I went down a rabbit hole and I did find one of those online I Ching readers where you just like click a button and it does it for you and shows you and the messages were all I would say. I'm going to say negative, but I don't mean that in like a bad sense.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's, a good point yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were very realistically like this is what's going on, this is how you need to shift your mindset. You know it just, and it described dynamics in relationships and just it was like very shockingly accurate and I would say, you know, for the most part, I mean I keep my vibration high and you know, when I pull cards, of course I pull cards that are lower vibration, showing me what's going on, but but I was in a space where that that was very accurate, like that's exactly what should have been showing up, because that's the mindset shift that I needed. That was the vibration that I was in and that's an excellent point.
Speaker 3:It is a mirror in that regard. But also I caution people sometimes because there are titles like Shocking is one of the titles, and Danger, subtitled the Abysmal a subtitle youthful folly, temptation, different things like that. Sometimes people will initially kind of like, react to it like that, and then they go into it and it's like oh, difficulty at the beginning or shocking can be a good shock, like winning the lottery, but it can also wake us up to things that we need to be looking at. So again, you get one of those kinds of messages or titles, but as you read into it it's kind of like, oh yeah, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:It was very, very accurate and as somebody who I feel like I do a good job most of the time with my mindset Well, it's easy when things are going well. It's when the shit hits the fan that it gets harder. And you're you know, you have all these nervous system reactions going on also that are driving the negative thoughts, and so I felt like it was just, it was that friend that could sort of step in and be like hey sister, like this is what you can't control, what's going on around you. This is what you can do right now to shift the situation.
Speaker 2:So I just wanted to say that, because I felt, like you know and for whatever reason, I don't know if it was like shocking enough that I just needed to step away from it. I didn't feel this need, like I normally do, to just like go deeper and learn everything I could. It was like I felt like I got what I needed in that moment need, like I normally do, to just like go deeper and learn everything I could. It was like it felt like I got what I needed in that moment and and now probably is the time for me to come back to it and learn more and start playing with it. But very, very accurate, and sometimes the messages can be maybe feel a little bit harsh, but if you can sort of surrender to like maybe, maybe that is what I need to hear right now.
Speaker 2:And again a different translation may give that message a different perspective. Yeah, might be a little more gentle. Might be a little more gentle. Yeah, so good, so good. Seems like there was one more thing I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 3:I thought so too, there was something rolling around for me. Maybe you've got it there.
Speaker 2:Let's see, my notes are all over the place. But oh, there was another. There was another story too, and again, this isn't with the I Ching, but with my tarot cards. But kind of around that same time actually it was that same time I, in my mind, I had been really successful in business. I had launched my first online group program. It had, you know, it was going really well.
Speaker 2:It felt like there was it was this huge, pivotal like shift in my business where it felt like I was getting ready to just like launch into a different stratosphere, kind of this is the way I can say it Cause there was a lot of momentum and it just felt like, okay, I'm going to do this. Because there was a lot of momentum and it just felt like, okay, I'm going to do this, and now I'm going to do this. And I had sort of started that ball rolling. Well, my next plan was to launch another online program and, as I do, I started pulling cards on it and they were very clear like nope, this is not the time stress cards, you know, um, tower car. Like it was just a lot of turmoil and I was kind of like, but it just it's the right time, you know, tower car, like it was just a lot of turmoil and I was kind of like, but it just it's the right time.
Speaker 2:You know, my ego was like it's the right time, like this is what I'm going to do, and I decided not to thank God because there was, you know, like three weeks later, there was a series of events, kind of unrelated, but all very, very stressful, and that would have been almost I mean, it would have been impossible probably for me to navigate holding space for people in a group coaching program when I was dealing with that kind of stress. And so I'm such an advocate for business owners, really anyone utilizing a divination system for this reason alone, just to kind of like feel into, like you said, the timing, like is the timing right? It wasn't that that program wasn't right ever. It was just in that specific time when my ego thought, like this is what I'm going to do. And you know, when I actually let myself feel into the energy of it, it was like, no, this is not for your highest and best good right now. So it was very, very cool and again, sometimes you won't know until things unfold.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the other thing is that sometimes months will go by. I don't use the I Ching. I mean, obviously I've used it over a long period of time. Sometimes at first people want to do a lot of readings and they get to know it. But there's an organic kind of process too. It's like oh, I need to check in here.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like people can overuse it or get kind of obsessed with it?
Speaker 3:Yes, and usually I think that works its way out, though Do you know what I mean. Either the answers stop making sense or they get overwhelmed and confused. It's kind of like eating a big meal where it's like then you just got to take time to digest it, so organically it kind of works itself out, I think. Or the itching itself may say you're pestering me, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. Well, I think I can relate to feeling that like wanting too many answers, getting too much information and then not being able to kind of put it together in a useful way, and getting to that point where you're finally like, okay, I need to step away, yeah, and just let things unfold for a little while, and then I'll check in when my intuition taps me on the shoulder and it's like, hey, it's time to look.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's in flows and also the I Ching we talked about, sometimes getting those messages of shocking and difficulty and that sort of thing. But it's also reminding us at times when things are at their peak, when it's time to act, messages of prospering, and one I was reminded of the other day is called great power, and the older translation that I have, the first line, says great power, when it befalls a man, is a true test of character, and I love that because we kind of have that assumption. It's like, ooh, it's powerful. Things are good, you know I can make things happen. It's like, ah, but now your character is going to be tested.
Speaker 2:That's right, yeah there's wisdom throughout, excited to learn more and again, like I said, go back and kind of go to a deeper level of how this fits into human design. I feel like you would. You would probably really like human design.
Speaker 2:I'm going to explore that for sure, yeah, and I'm, I'm almost positive that that, that these, the 64 messages, are the 64 gates and so, even like you're saying, the shocking one, a lot of people have come along and done their own translations in the same way, um, of each of these gates and softened the message a lot of times. But if you go back and look at the original human design, it's a lot of. It can be kind of like, okay, that's, but sometimes we need to shock, shock ourselves, sometimes we need that to snap out of it and make a shift. Yeah, yeah, it's not always fun, but it's not always fun. Yeah, yeah, rhonda, thank you so much. This is so good, so beautiful. You're just such a wise woman and I love talking to you and it's a delight to be in your energy and your space.
Speaker 3:It's my pleasure to be with you, Kelly. Thanks so much for inviting me.