Raising Kind Humans

61. Unlocking the Power of Video Games with Eric Barone (ConcernedApe)

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Do you let your kids play video games? There are pros and cons to video gaming and a lot of times the negatives have a louder voice. This conversation shines a light on the positives of video gaming and kids, as well as ways to use them to your advantage.

Join my coffee chat with Eric Barone, developer of the ever-popular video game, Stardew Valley. You may also know him by his online handle, ConcernedApe! Eric is the perfect example of using your passions to create something meaningful and turn it into your life's work. You will fall in love with him as you hear his journey and the heart behind his cozy game.

Bonus! My dear friend and fellow homeschool mama, Brittany Yen, joins me as my cohost for this epic gaming conversation. Her wisdom and insight are both refreshing and beneficial to other parents navigating the world of video games.

Eric has graciously donated a SIGNED copy of his new Stardew Valley cookbook! To enter to win, all you have to do is leave a review for the podcast. If you really want to make sure I see it, screenshot your review and send it to me on Instagram @teamkindhumans or through email katie@teamkindhumans.com. Good luck!

You can purchase your own copy of the cookbook here or on his website stardewvalley.net.


Grab your coffee or tea and let's dive in!

Send Katie a message!

Start your KindSchooling journey and join the Team Kind Humans membership. Head to www.teamkindhumans.com or follow me on Instagram @teamkindhumans!

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Raising Kind Humans podcast. I am your host Katie Doughty and do I have an episode for you. Today you get to hear from a couple of people actually. This one was really special because we got to do it in person. And, I got to invite a dear friend along to co host with me. So, Eric Barone is here. You might know him as ConcernedApe online, but he is the creator, the sole creator, of a very popular video game called Stardew Valley. And Eric is here to talk to us about his game, about his journey creating the game, what it's like to be a developer. And, we talk about video games and kids. Because I think that sometimes video gaming and children get a bad rap and there is definitely a balance to kids playing video games. And I also think there is a positive side to gaming, right? There's always two sides to the story. So we kind of dive into the topic of What are the benefits of video gaming? Because sometimes there are things that our kids just absolutely love. And we need to find what door will get us into the educational realm with their passions. And this conversation definitely covers those topics. My dear friend, Brittany Yen is here as my co host. She is a fellow homeschooling mama and a Stardew Valley fan. So I'm so grateful that she was here to help with this conversation in her knowledge, both homeschooling with kids, um, and the video game, which is really fun. Um, I want to let you know, there's so many fun things going on in Team Kind Humans right now, but for this episode specifically, Eric was kind enough to, um, donate a Stardew Valley cookbook that is signed as a giveaway. So we are giving away a signed Stardew Valley cookbook, which has recipes from the game. Super cute art. It's adorable. My kids are already oohing and aahing over it. And so we are giving that away. And all you have to do to enter is leave a review for the podcast. If you leave a review for the podcast, you are automatically entered. If you really want to make sure that I see it, you can screenshot it and send it to me on Instagram at TeamKindHumans, or you can email it to me, Katie, at TeamKindHumans. com. So go leave a review for the podcast. And if you are chosen, you will receive a signed cookbook. There is also, I have a lot of free stuff for you this time. There is a free kind schooling lesson Right now, if you've been curious about TeamKindHumans and the membership that I offer, there's a free lesson right now that you can grab at TeamKindHumans. com slash membership that is actually all about National Video Games Day. And so this lesson dives into National Video Games Day and highlights a really cool organization that is called Extra Life, and they help get video games into the hands of kids at children's hospitals. So it's an educational, um, lesson for your kids about this topic with an action item that you can print and have your kids complete, um, to help out extra life, which I think is the whole point, right? We learn about something and then we take action on it. So that is absolutely free right now. You can go watch it and download the activity guide at team kind humans. com slash membership. So I also wanted to let you know, in case you didn't know, did you know I have a podcast for kids? So as a homeschooling mom, there have been a lot of times when I will learn about a new topic or a way of teaching. And I'm thinking this is amazing, but can someone just teach it for me? Can somebody just do this part for me? Um, so I've done that for you, this part of the social, emotional learning of kindness of community service. I've done it for you. So I have a podcast for kids called super kind kids, and we interview really cool people doing really great things in the world with different topics. It's kid friendly, and there's always an action item at the end, and it feeds into the team kind humans membership. And this membership is from four kids. It can be done. anywhere from the comfort of your home. It is not an in person membership. It's all online and it's all on your own time. And we have a really exciting kind schooling quest coming up in the membership actually dropping today. And it's all about hockey. It's all about this beautiful organization called Sticks and Strings. Um, so you will hear it from hockey superstar Jordan Aberle and Cammie Granato, who was the first female player, um, inducted into the Hall of Fame, which is really exciting. Um, and so many other things that are coming up in that membership that I think you will really love. So. You can find out more at team kind humans. com slash membership. I love for your kids to come and join me. Let me do the teaching. All you have to do is press play and connect with your kids and teach them how to give back, which I think is so valuable and so important. So you can check out super kind kids. You can head over to team kind humans. com slash membership. Learn all about the membership you can join for two weeks for free so you can check it out and see if you like it There's also a community attached to it. So kids can come and ask questions. I have challenges for them They can cheer each other on all the wonderful things. So come join us, but I'm so excited for you to hear this episode It was really fun to sit down with Eric and ask him all the questions and get his perspective on Gaming especially with kids. So without further ado, please welcome Eric Brony. Well, let's dive in. Shall we dive in? Sounds good. Okay. Well, if you can take a second and just kind of introduce yourself and a little bit about you and your background and, um, My name is Eric Barone, um, I'm known online as ConcernedApe, and I'm the developer of Stardew Valley. Um, I got into game development after college, um, I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I was trying to apply for jobs, and I didn't have any success getting jobs, so to kind of, like, learn more about programming, I, uh, just started making this game, and it was kind of based on, uh, A game that I really loved when I was a kid. It was like inspired by that. So, um, I just started making this game at first. It was kind of just a practice project. And then over time it kind of evolved and grew. And I started to think, you know, maybe this could actually be legitimate. Maybe I could be a real game developer. And so I kind of, you know, it spiraled into four and a half years of just solo developing this game, stardew Valley, which, um, finally came out in 2016 and it became a big hit. And now, you know, I'm a full time game developer and Stardew Valley has sold over 30 million copies. So it's, it's gotten pretty big. So it really changed my life. Yeah, I bet. 30 million copies. Okay. One, I just realized I've been saying your last name wrong. So apologies if I've ever said that incorrectly to you. It's okay. It's very common. I love it. Okay. Um, 30 million copies. Okay. I don't even know where to go from here because your, your success story is absolutely insane. So take us back to the moment where. You're like in the trenches of building this game. What was the moment where you were like this something and how did you know it was ready to release to the world? So the moment that I really thought like this could be real was, um, back then there's cause, okay, so there's this platform steam, which is a lot of people used to play games on the PC. Um, and back then, you couldn't just put your game on Steam, you had to do this thing called Steam Greenlight, which is where the community would vote on games that they wanted to see on, you know, appear on the platform. Um, and that was kind of a big deal back then, to get greenlit. And, um, you know, Stardew Valley, at first, I was like, man, there's no way, you know, I don't have enough fans, but Eventually, you know, through my website that I had and I, you know, I built up enough of a following around the game that the game did get greenlit. So that was the point where I was kind of like, all right, I'm actually going to be on Steam. This is a big deal. Um, this could be a real thing. So that was kind of the point where I was thinking this, this is like a legitimate enterprise here. Um, and then what was the other question? What was, I guess I want to know what it was like when you started realizing, Oh, people actually like this. Like, how did you first, how did you know you were like, this is done? Cause I know four and a half years it took you to actually make this game. How did you know it was done? And then what was it like to have that reception of people actually playing your game? Right. Okay. Yeah, that, so that was a difficult part, like knowing when it was done. Um, You know, I'm kind of like a perfectionist. And part of the reason the game took so long is because I went back and redid a bunch of stuff multiple times. Because, you know, when I started, I had no idea what I was doing. I, like, was really bad at doing the art and, uh, programming, like, just pretty awful at it. And so, like, over the course of these four and a half years, I, like, learned so much that I was like, okay, my existing art is, like, awful. I need to go back and redo it all. And that happened, like, multiple times. Um, but then at some point I was like, okay, I can't keep doing this forever. I have to just like release this game at some point. So I kind of just reached a point where I was like, I think it's good enough. I think I can release it. And you know, I'll just, I'll keep releasing updates after to like make it even better. So I just kind of like, it was a feeling. Um, and then when the game came out and it, you know, a lot of people were playing it and praising it. I mean, that was kind of like, uh, a very insane, uh, kind of like year for me. Um, I wasn't expecting it to be so popular. So it took me a while to kind of just like mentally, uh, grapple with it. You know, this kind of sudden success and just suddenly being like in the limelight. Like, you know, I was just kind of this bedroom coder and then suddenly I'm doing podcasts. I'm doing interviews. I'm the game is huge. There's a ton of people playing it. There's bugs that I got to fix. You know, it's suddenly it cranked up from like zero to, well, not zero, but it went from 10 to 15, you know, when you started this project to help you get a job and then it really became your job, which is pretty cool. When you put it out there. Um, what was your plan for continuing to update features or fix bugs? Like you said, did you put it out there and just think, well, I'm done for now. I've got this thing. I can start applying for more jobs. Or were you thinking I've got so much more work to do on this? Uh, it's the latter. By the time the game was about to come out, I pretty much knew that it would be like successful enough that I could keep working on the game, like as my job. So I pretty much knew that I would be doing updates. I didn't necessarily know that I would still be working on it, uh, eight years later, you know, but that was kind of just, I've just gone with the flow. The game has been so popular that it's really hard to, like, just let go of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was surprised, um, to see the latest update. That was 1. 6. Um, and there was so much in it. I figured after 1. 5 was pretty much it, but I was very pleasantly surprised to see that you still put so much thought and, uh, just the quality of life updates and everything were really cool. Thank you. I want to go back just a little bit for people like me who might not know a lot of the game play and what you have built. Can you give us just a little summary of what the game is about and if you can tell us what was that game that you modeled it after that you loved as a kid. Right, so the game that inspired it was called Harvest Moon and it's a Jap, a Japanese RPG that's, um, about your, uh, basically you move into this town, you get a farm, and then you kind of learn how to farm and grow this farm. You buy chickens, you buy cows, you get to know the people in town. Um, it's, it's very similar to Stardew Valley, but With Stardew Valley, I wanted to kind of, well, create a world of my own that I had full control of, and that, you know, I could do whatever I wanted to with, and also to take kind of that, because that game was like from the 90s originally, and so if you go back and play it, I mean, like, I still love the game, but there's some, like, Convenience features and things that are kind of, would feel clunky to a modern player. So with Stardew, I wanted to like, you know, kind of modernize it, add like, you know, a Minecraft style inventory and add crafting and all this other stuff and like have like a mines where you go and do combat in the mines. And so basically in Stardew Valley, you inherit your grandpa's farm. Okay. So your character is working this like kind of. cubicle job and is kind of like depressed like Working like in a in an office just like it's it's kind of an extreme idea of like what like maybe Like a soulless corporate job might be which I think was me like projecting my fears about going into the workforce But, um, cause I don't think it's actually that bad in a lot of cases, but this was like an extreme example. So you start off like that and then you kind of open this or actually the game starts off where your grandpa is like on his deathbed and he gives you this letter, which is like, it's the deed to his old farm and he's like, someday you might want this and then it kind of cuts ahead 20 years later and you're working in this dead end job and you're depressed and then like. The player like opens the drawer and grandpa's letters in there and you're looking at it and it's like, basically you just take a chance. I'm going to quit this job. I'm going to move to the country and inherit this farm from my grandpa. And then, so you move to starting Valley and the farm is totally in disrepair. It's overgrown with weeds. There's like trees growing everywhere. And you have this kind of dilapidated old, like farmhouse that you move into. So you just kind of start like that. It's totally messy and from, from scratch and you have to just, uh, Start clearing the land, you know, planting seeds, uh, walk, you know, going around the valley and like collecting forage items and stuff like that. And then you start to get to know the townspeople. And then, you know, over many years in the game, you build up a big farm and there's a whole storyline and everything. So. That's pretty much what the game's about. I love the flexibility of it where you can choose what you want to focus on in the game. Um, I think it's great for, for adults and kids really if they're playing just because, um, you can kind of tailor it to what you're interested in. So, for example, I would say personally, the combat part of it is probably my least favorite part if I had to pick a least favorite. So I just don't go into the caves very often. And I focus on the farming and the building and the, the relationships in town. Um, and then I know people who only like the combat and they're just in the minds all day, every day fighting and getting items and things that way. So it's, it's cool because it's, uh. Bit of a choose your own adventure. There's just a lot of flexibility in the world of Stardew Valley. Yeah. That's the, that's the cool thing about co op is that like, you know, you could be playing where one person's like the farmer and then the other person just goes in the mines and does the fishing. Yes. That's true. Yeah. You can have everyone who likes those different roles joined together and have this big mega farm, all the skills. Well, and from a parent's perspective, it sounds like. A perfect example of helping kids understand how a community works and how to work together and also Starting from nothing and being able to build and grow from there Did you have an idea of like your goals for players in the game and what they what you wanted them to feel? While they were playing the game while you were building it or were you just like let's see where this goes Um, I think I did have an idea of You know, a big thing of these kind of games, I would say, is like, setting a goal, and then working towards that goal, and then having the satisfaction of achieving the goal. And that's kind of like a loop that you keep doing in the game, and then the goals get bigger and bigger and more ambitious. Um, and it is definitely something I was thinking about when I was making the game. You know, like, I want there to be, like, short term goals, medium term goals, and long term goals. And you always have to be, like, thinking about this, juggling the short term is like, what am I going to do today? The medium is like, what might I do, you know, this season? And then long term would be like, you know, completing the game itself. Like, finishing the big, major goals in the game. And so I always wanted there to be all three of those type of goals like on your mind at all times. So you're always kind of working towards multiple things and, you know, juggling those priorities. It's really cool. I think, um, it does help teach my son's time management. I think every seven seconds is 10 minutes or something in the game. And so they're, you know, they're like, mom, why can't I get into the store? I'm like, well, check the clock. What time of day is it? Is it open? And so it actually helped them with time telling. Um, there are some, I would say, mature themes in the game. I'm not sure exactly. what demographic you envision playing it, but what do you think when you hear of younger kids playing your game, like four and five year olds? Um, I could understand if a parent wouldn't want their four or five year old to play it. However, you know, I do think that every, like all these mature themes in the game are usually treated in a way that is, there's nothing that I would say is like evil. Like it's kind of like trying to, Humanize people or like show that, you know, even in dark times, there can be like a positive outcome, you know, if you do the right thing, um, and that, you know, you should like understand and try to treat people with compassion, you know, even people that you don't quite. understand their perspective or their way of life or whatever. So, I mean, and I think the, the target demographic was honestly just like myself. I wasn't necessarily thinking this as a game for a particular, you know, age group. It was kind of just like, I was just making what I wanted. And then it happened to like resonate with other people. I think this lends itself to kind of a topic I want to talk about in, in that is video games and kids, because. I feel like as a parent, the term screen time kind of gets villainized, um, in how much time your kid is on screens and should you let them play video games. And before I had children, I thought video games were terrible. Like I would never let my kids play all these video games. Um, but we are a video game family because my husband is a game developer. And so I've seen the other side of it and I feel like for Parents listening, like what's your opinion on kids in video games and what are some of those benefits that we can draw from video games and kind of reverse the negative that we hear sometimes when we talk about kids playing games. Yeah, so I mean, I grew up playing a lot of games and I feel like I turned out okay, but I'm sure everyone feels that way. But I think, uh, you know, one thing that to note is there's a wide variety of different kinds of games and, you know, there are definitely, in my opinion, games that I think would be good for kids, like, you know, our outlets for creativity, um, you know, games like Minecraft and stardew valley, like you're, it's kind of a sandbox and you can kind of go wild with it. It's, it's like playing with Legos, you know, you can use your imagination to build something, which I think is always good, but I think there are other Aspects to games, like for example, Stardew Valley, I would say like, like you kind of pointed out, it can teach things like time management or just the general concept of like, um, planning for, you know, having goals and then finding a way to achieve your goals and it's like, Okay. Some games, I will say, do kind of like hijack almost like the dopamine system by giving you rewards too quickly and too easily. Stardew Valley, I think, is very not like that. It's, it's kind of, um, very like, like, it's on a human level where I think, you know, we have this natural drive to, um, You know, plan for the future and then work towards it. You know, like it may have been, you know, in the old days, it may have been planting your actual crops, like your wheat in the fields, and then you have to water them and take care of them. And then eventually months later, you will reap your harvest. And that's what you needed to do to survive. So. I think that's kind of, there's a certain like, um, like, uh, pacing that I think is like natural for humans. And I think stardew valley does kind of tap into that. I actually feel like that's part of the reason why it's been popular is because it, it does actually satisfy this kind of deep human desire we have to like, uh, to expand our domestic situation, you know, and I think it can really, it could help kids kind of learn how to, you know, Yeah, like plan for stuff, work towards it, and then they can feel the satisfaction of achieving that goal. And then that kind of, you know, is what you do in life in general. And it's like, this is kind of, it's almost like training for that. And then also, and that's one aspect. There's also the aspect of the themes and messages that are in the game. And with Stardew Valley, I would say that I always tried to, um, do things in a way that like would, would teach kind of compassion for people. And, you know. There's never, it never glorifies, like, anything that is Um, Wicked or, you know, like, kind of bullying someone or anything like that, it actually, you know, when there are issues where someone has a conflict, it's usually resolved in a way that is, uh, I would say trying to do the right thing. Um, so I think, I definitely think games can be influential. To kids, you know, all media can, um, and, but so it is important, I think, to like, you know, decide, you know, what sorts of things your kids ought to consume, because there's definitely bad games out there that would teach, you know, bad values, but yeah. I think some people find those kind of games. It's more of an outlet, but for really young kids, um, games with positive messages are much more productive and started Valley also is very aesthetically pleasing, I think, and kids can take a lot of pride and adults as well, um, in the farms that they build, right? And so it's just direct. Um, effort and reward, just getting to see the work that they've put in. I think too, like I'm thinking as now from a mom's perspective, I've seen the collaboration that can go into video gaming and the way that my kids connect to one another when they're playing a game together. Um, you know, I can hear them downstairs just hooting and hollering about an achievement that they did, or they're working towards something and. And I think video games lend themselves to, um, kind of trial and error and failure and trying again. And, um, I think, I mean, you spoke a little bit, some of them are instant reward and you get rewarded along the way, but a lot of them, I know when I was a kid, I grew up on Mario, right? Super Mario brothers. That's the only game I know how to play, but it was a lot of dying and failure and coming back and losing your life and like trying to work through and sticking with something. And I think that's so valuable. for kids. Um, and then also the critical thinking piece. I think there is a lot of value in gaming and the way that you do have to solve problems, set goals, interact with other players, interact with other characters, make decisions that I don't think we get to give enough credit to video gaming. I think sometimes it just gets that negative wrap and, and, but I think there's so much value there in the way that we present video games. And I think it is about balance. Like, Yes, we have to limit and balance as much as we can, but you've made an entire living around this. My husband's entire living is around gaming, and so I think sometimes parents are quick to be like, I don't want my kids in that, but there's so much that you can pull from this. I'm wondering if you can speak a little bit to growing up with video games and then given the opportunity to turn it into your life's passion. For those kids who love video games, like, how can they use what they love to make a living out of it? Right, yeah, I mean, games always, like, I always loved them, I was always drawn to them, I always wanted to play a ton of games, and it's just, I think it was because it, it seemed like this, this other world you could explore, and it really just excited my imagination. Um, and I think it, it kind of did, uh, grow my creativity and it was something that I just turned into all kinds of different hobbies, you know, playing music, writing, drawing, and I think some of that was like, I'm like imagining myself in these video game worlds, you know, cause I was just, you know, a silly boy, but like, I was like, I love these worlds and they were so creative. Um, so it really sparked the imagination and then I, I just kind of, I loved creating things and kind of creating worlds of my own, just, uh, you know, not necessarily video games at first, but just various things through writing and drawing and music even. Um, and then, yeah, it just kind of, it ended up turning into this thing where I then learned how to program, you know, and I was like, okay, maybe I can combine all this into one thing. And that worked out. But yeah, I do think that, um, you know, let's be real in the modern world, like everyone is interfacing with computers and stuff like that all the time. You kind of have to, to get by, you know, in the modern economy. So I think it, you know, you, you do, however you feel about modern technology. I do think that like, to some degree, like it's probably good, you know, if kids learn how to use this stuff. Responsibly. Um, and I think video games can be like a good way to kind of just teach, like how to interface with these devices and all these things that, you know, kind of makes up the modern world and will only grow in the future. Um, yeah. Are you, are you gonna let your kids play Halo someday or not? I talked to Caleb about that. And yeah, I mean, yeah, they will, because they, as soon as we feel like that's a responsible thing to allow them to do. But they've watched the development of it over the last 10 years, and they know that's something that that's a passion of of dad's right like they they've seen him put in the effort and the work of helping to build that game and so I feel like at some point, we would have those conversations about. You know, this is a game for fun and, or these are things that you can do in real life. And these are things that you can do in a video game and differentiate and have those open conversations. And I think I think having that open dialogue with kids is really important, um, because there are some games that my kids will pick up and I will. So I really want to talk with them about, you know, what we're seeing on the screen and how that character is behaving. And what would you do if this were real life and this was your friend that said this or this? And would you do the same thing in a video game versus would you do it in real life? And, um, I think just having those open conversations are really important. And I'm kind of an advocate for not completely shutting it down. I want to be open to listening to why they want to play this game, what's important to them about this game. Um, I know for my son, he will talk for hours about video games to the point where he's like, okay, What game do you want me to tell you about next? Like, let's just keep talking about this. And that's his passion. And I think parents can find that, um, kind of bring out that passion in their kids in a positive way. I know he loves going to the library and checking out books on Minecraft, or He will spend his own money going to the bookstore and picking up games or books on minecraft that he will then come home and read Figure out how to build something and then bring it to the computer to figure out, you know build it on his in his level or in his world and I Love that that gives him the opportunity To tie in like you said sometimes we write about it. Let's write about your world Sometimes we have to read about it so that we can build it Sometimes we draw it sometimes like you can cook it now the cook. Yeah, you can pick a recipe Like there are so many academic things that you can tie into these passions as opposed to being like no We're not doing that, you know, I could have shut it down But being open to those conversations, I think it's been really valuable for my family, right? Well, like video games are like a huge business these days and they're I think they already make way more More money by a big margin than, uh, like movies or anything else. They're like the biggest entertainment sector now. And I think that'll continue to grow into the future. So it's like, just from a practical perspective, yeah, I do think getting into games could translate into, you know, future jobs or work or do what I did. Or, you know, so I feel like, you know, parents shouldn't be too concerned that like, oh, my kid's playing video games all day, like. You know, they're never going to be able to get a job. You know, it's like, well, maybe, maybe they will. Things are changing, right? My husband got a job in or a degree in business marketing, and that has nothing to do with video games, but he was so passionate about them, played them all the time, love to do different mods. He got into marketing was like, Nope, not for me. And then got an internship in gaming and went from there. And I think kids have the opportunity to then take what they've learned through gaming. And then, like, my kid's using Scratch now to build his own games, and that's something that's a valuable skill to have in this world, you know, so I think it's been such a positive experience for our family, personally. I love seeing this gamification of other things as well. Like, we're a homeschooling, homeschooling family, and, um, a lot of the programs that my kids are using to learn, they don't even realize are part of the school curriculum. The beast academy and um, there's a teacher monster to read game that they love and they're playing these games and they are learning, but they don't even realize it because they're having so much fun. So it's really nice to sneak it in there. Yeah, I would love to live to learn that way when I was a kid instead of having to just read from the textbook and do the problems that go with it. Yeah, there's whole stories and interactive games and you can build your monster and you can I remember I remember one video game and when I was going to elementary school, you know, and classrooms, if you were lucky, there was one computer sitting in the classroom and, um, back in my day and, uh, it was like math blaster or something where you hike up the snowy mountain and you do math problems along the way. And that really, it still resonates with me as something that really made it fun to learn. And so it's cool that kids these days, I mean, they have way more opportunities to play game, game lessons. Yeah. And if you were lucky, you got to play Oregon Trail. Oh my gosh. That's my favorite. Oh, that's my favorite. Are you, you're the Oregon Trail generation, right? You're pretty similar. Yeah, yeah. What was your degree and were you going to school for programming? Uh, yeah, computer science. Yeah, I'm the same. It was like a, oh, the same? Uh huh. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it was like a little bit of programming and then a lot of theoretical stuff that I never use, but. Did you go to school in Washington? Yeah, it was actually UW Tacoma. Oh, yeah, so like Java programming. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I did Wazoo. Yeah. Go Cougs. Thank you. Um, and it's funny because we knew, uh, UW was a Java house and Wazoo was doing C, C, C C sharp. But ever since I graduated, I've only ever worked in Java. So it's kind of funny. I had to learn it on the fly. Yeah. Yeah. C and C is pretty cool, but it is kind of like. It's too advanced almost. No one's using it. Like, yeah, we learned Java, but then I ended up using C sharp for Stardew Valley, which is very similar. But this is getting into too much technical stuff. Sorry, I'm gonna cut all that out. I'm sure there are people out there that really know what you're talking about, and they're very interested. I think, too, like, with your story, though, You set such a good example of doing it messy, like just getting in there and building something and figuring it out as you go. And I think gaming gives you that opportunity of figuring it out as you go. So I guess my question is, like, what advice do you have for kids who want to get into games and build their own game? I would say just start doing it. And all the resources you need are actually out there. You don't even necessarily need to learn about it at school. Like you can go right now on the internet and if your parents let you. And uh, find, you know, information on how to start making games. Um, and I, I really think the best way to learn is to just do it. Like a lot of people spend too much time, I think, just like studying and Doing theoretical stuff, but like you have to get the hands on experience. That's how I got, like learned, um, during college, I was kind of, sometimes I would not pay attention in class, but I'd be working on my own games. And that was kind of how I learned, you know, just. Through trial and error of my own, and I did it kind of in my own way too, like just learned how game loops work and how drawing things to the screen and how to, you know, you press a button and then something happens on the screen and you kind of learn the basics and then you use your imagination to kind of, how can I grow this bigger, you know, now I'll make it so when you move the character, they animate and like just little things, baby steps, but then you start to You know, have bigger and bigger ideas of how you can turn this into a, you know, a big project and you use your passion for games to kind of guide what you're excited about. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, yeah, my advice to kids would be, well, one thing I will point out is that, you know, you also don't have to be like some kind of expert because when I started, I didn't really know anything about making games. Like I did not a program. Which you could learn online by yourself today. Um, but other than that, I didn't know anything. I didn't have any special connections to anyone in the industry. I was just a random guy in my room who loved games and, uh, knew a few basic things and then. Just like took a chance, worked really hard, practiced, uh, and was able to now, you know, I've sold 30 million copies of the game. So I would say that, that my story should ideally be like, you know, an inspiration to people who are thinking, you know, I couldn't do this, but see, I was there at one point and I thought, you know, maybe the same thing. Oh, I, I probably can't do this. You have to know someone. You have to know all these special things, but it's actually not true. You can create something, uh, big and huge and popular. And even if it's not popular, you can still create something great. If you just try and you believe in yourself and you have like a growth mindset, you know, like I'm always learning. Even when I fail, I'm going to just learn from this and improve and do better next time. And if I keep trying, eventually I will succeed. I think that mindset is very important. Such a great testament to chasing your passions. I think it's really easy to get caught up in today's economy with achievements and success. And one thing that I've really loved, um, my family and I've been traveling around for a little over a year. And my favorite thing about our travels is seeing people doing their passions for a living. So a lot of park rangers, a lot of people running museums, nonprofits, things, and it's so great, I think for kids to see people doing what they're passionate about, because I feel like that's really the only true way to be successful and happy is if you're doing something that you truly care about. I love that so much. Yes. And I feel like that's a homeschool mom stream of you talking about how you just educated yourself as you went. Because you were interested in it and you wanted to find out the answer, you know, sometimes we give kids these problems of like, we'll go figure this out, but they have, they don't care about it. Why would they need to figure this out? But you give them something like, they want to build a video game. Okay, they are going to go and find their resources. They are going to look for questions and answers. They are going to try something new, and they're going to develop their skills. Little baby steps and it won't feel like a chore. And yet they're growing in their, in their mindset and growing in their capacity to achieve what they want to achieve. And I love that it lends itself to kids finding the answers for themselves. And as a homeschool mom, that's all I want for my kids, is if they have a goal, can they get the resources and find what they need to achieve that goal? Right. And I think video gaming. does that. And, and it can start, like, I've watched my kids on Scratch where it's literally just the ball bouncing back and forth and you have to try to bonk it. And then the next time they're like, they add an extra element. They're like, look, and I just added this extra element and they're all excited about it. And then it grows from there. Like you were talking about. It's almost like a game itself to develop a game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What does your typical day look like now? Um. Well, you know, when I'm not like super busy with like conventions and like things like that, which I, I tried not to do too much of that, to be honest. Cause I really just, what I like to do is work. Um, but my typical like classic workday is like, well, honestly, it's just me sitting on the computer, working, doing various things, but I mean, the actual work I'm doing is always a very, you know, like there's phases where I'm just fixing bugs for a long time. Then there's phases where I'm drawing or making music or. The cool thing about being, you know, a solo developer and, uh, not having a boss is I can just do whatever I want. You know, if I feel like making music for awhile, I can just do that. And I just try to make sure that everything I'm doing is productive in some way and is somehow working towards a bigger goal. Um, which the ultimate goal is releasing a new game, you know, and there's so much involved with that, that you can, if you're not feeling like doing one thing, there's always something else you could be doing to kind of work towards that in a productive manner. But yeah, it does, it does require a lot of, um, you have to be like self directed, I think, to, to be at least a solo game developer. Um, you have to really be able to have this kind of vision in your head of what you want to achieve. And then, you know, either spend time like planning out what you need to do, or just have a really good intuition for what you ought to be doing, which will be productive. And it's like, I think for me, I rely a lot on intuition. It's kind of like, I know that, you know, I need to create this area in the game. So it's like. If I'm drawing assets for that area, that is a productive task. So I can kind of just forget about the big picture of why I'll focus on this thing. When I finish it, I'm like, okay, now what's the next step? Well, now I got to build the map. So, you know, it's like. It can seem like overwhelming the amount of work you have to do, but it's why you have to kind of just focus on like one thing at a time and then kind of almost train yourself to, um, get, you know, derive your satisfaction from day to day to achieving these small goals because you're not going to release the game for years. So you can't be too invested in like, I can't wait to release the game. You gotta be like, I can't wait to just finish drawing this house so I can put it in the game and then I can see it in the game. And that's cool. And then you kind of get that enjoyment just from like, Whoa, I built this. It's in the game. Now I can run around and check it out. That sounds like just how you described the goal setting in the game itself. True little baby steps. And then looking at the big picture and keeping all that in mind as you work through the day to day. True. Absolutely. That's interesting. Ooh, I love that you brought that up because. One of the things I'm learning as an adult is to really enjoy the journey and you know as a kid I always set a goal and it wasn't I couldn't be happy till I reached that goal Like this is what I want to achieve and I'm learning now How much fun it is to get to that goal because for me I I like to continue to have goals So I know that once I reach I'm just gonna set a new one So I have to enjoy the journey along the way and I feel like that's what you're doing right now is okay I made this house. This looks really cool. It's not the end game, but I'm having fun along the way I tried to, but yeah, there's, I mean, there are like difficulties. It's not, it's not all fun and games. You know, there's definitely times where I'm like, oh man, like I'm fixing bugs for like two months, three months, four months, you know, and it's, it's, uh, painful and challenging, but it's, uh, so in those times, then I kind of think about the big picture when I'm doing something that's fun, then I can enjoy the moment. Those are the best times, but, uh, yeah, what do you like to do then to, okay, you're in the bug fixing world and you're hunkered down and you need a break, like, what's a way that you kind of reset your mind and reset your body? Um, well, I like to try to get lately. I've been wanting to get off the computer as much as possible. So, like, I'm trying, trying to do more things off the computer. Um, you know, just go outside. Play music, play real instruments, uh, read, you know, like things like that. Um, I like to ride my bike, you know, try to get some exercise. It's, that's one thing with like working on the computer all the time. It's like, you have to like be deliberate about getting exercise. So I do like, you know, pushups and pull ups and stuff. Yeah, that's pretty good. But the, okay. The thing about like, the thing that's kind of, uh, interesting about that is like all of my traditional hobbies. are actually part of my work. Like, I, I always loved, you know, making music just randomly, like not for any reason, just to make music or to draw or to write. Those are always the things I like to do. And if I wasn't making games, that's probably what I would do in my free time. But it's kind of, I've combined that all into my work. So it's almost like, If I want a break, what I can do is just, okay, I'll make music, uh, and maybe it'll be stuff that I put into the game later. Yeah. I love that you've found all of your passions to be able to combine them together into what your job is. Like, that's the end goal. I feel like that's the end goal. And yes, it is. Just because you found your passion in something that's successful doesn't mean it's going to be easy. You still have to work hard for it. There are going to be days that you hate it. But, if you can find things that you're passionate about and be able to use that as your job, I think that's success to me. Absolutely. Yeah. Can I say one thing about Halo? Sure, I don't know if I have any answers about anything. Well, it wasn't a question, but I was just going to say like, um, you know, I, I asked, you know, are you going to let your kids play Halo? And it's like, I think that you might infer from that, that I think Halo is like bad or something, but I actually don't. Cause it's like the storyline of Halo is that there's like aliens that are invading Earth. It's like, if that was going to happen, we probably would have to fight them. We need master chief. Right. So it's, it's actually not like a bad, even though it is violent. It's like, you know, there are cases where violence would be the proper thing to do and I think but I do think kids maybe need to be old enough to understand that nuance, right? Absolutely, yes. But I don't think that necessarily just because a game is violent means that it's bad because sometimes there would be cases where, you know, violence would be the, the thing we have to do, you know. It's not gratuitous, it's Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I mean, Halo's a big part of our family, so we're on the same page. But yes, my kids will be much older before they get to see that and play that. But, yeah, I think that goes along with critical thinking, right? You might see the cover of the game and be like, Absolutely not, you will never play this game. But if you know the storyline and you know what the objective is, I think it's all about keeping an open mind and doing your research, right? As a parent, I think we are constantly doing the research on figuring out what's appropriate for kids and what's appropriate for your specific family. And there's a ton of sites out there. I think Common Sense Media we use all the time in helping us navigate what's going to be appropriate for the age of our children. And, um I think it's just all about being informed. Yeah, I think that we really try to focus less on sheltering and filtering and more on keeping open communication because our kids. And they're going to encounter things everywhere. And as they grow up, they're going to be out in the world and just keeping an open dialogue on how they're processing the things that they're encountering will help prepare them for anything they come across. And they don't need to worry about hiding things or not being able to see things, you know, just being able to handle whatever they can come across with critical thinking and applying that so that no matter what they come across in the world, no matter how shocking or whatever, they, they are prepared to And they know their true selves and can know how they feel about it without being freaked out. Oh, absolutely. Yes. And given the tools that they need to handle whatever situation that is. And I think critical thinking is the most important gift that you can give your kids. And doing that means talking to them about all types of situations and not hiding everything from them, which it's easier to hide everything from them and not share that stuff. But there are certain things that are age appropriate. That you can have those conversations about and yeah, give them the tools that they will need. So if something happens when you're not there, or that they know they can come and talk to you about it. And I think that's another huge thing as a, as a parent is just knowing my kids know they can come and talk to me if they see something that is a little off to them or scary or whatever it is, they can come and they know I'll have an open conversation with them. I mean, and as a kid, you know, like, I just think the fact that you. And are like thinking about these things, like, even though, you know, kids might be like annoyed when they're like a teenager, they're like, ah, mom, won't let me watch movies. And like, but then they'll hopefully they'll mature at some point. They'll think back and be like, you know what? Mom was right. She did that because she loved me and she cared about me. And like, so it like, ultimately it's. I think it's just that, like, desire to, you know, do the right thing will like, that's, like, what is the most important almost, you know? Like, the, like, kids will eventually grow up and, like, realize, and they'll realize, you know, my parents were right. Here's hoping. That's the goal. Here's hoping. We'll see. Oh my goodness. This has been so fun talking about video games and diving into your story and, Yeah, I'm just wishing you all the luck in whatever is next for you and that you'll achieve that next big goal that you've set for yourself, but thank you for being here. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. It's been fun to talk, talk to you guys about this stuff. Yeah. We'll be cheering you on. And Brittany, thank you for sharing your insight on being a homeschool mom and a Stardew Valley fan. A video game enthusiast. Yes. Thank you so much. Yes. I'm very thankful that you're living out your passion and sharing it because it's helping other people do the same thing. Yeah. Oh, I'm Stardew Valley cookbook. Go out and buy the cookbook. Maybe you can tell us just a little bit about this. Cause this is a new release, correct? It's pretty new. Yeah. It's, uh, it has like a bunch of the different dishes in the game. Um, we worked with penguin random house. Uh, they did a great job. It's, it's full of cool illustrations, photos, and a delicious. Recipes from Stardew Valley and there's all kinds of little write ups from like the perspective of the characters in the game So yeah, if you like cooking or if you like Stardew Valley, I think you might enjoy this book I love it and where can people find it? And where can people find you like if they want to follow along with what you're doing in your journey and by the cookbook and all The things where do they find you? You can find me on like Twitter slash X, whatever you want to call it. Um, that's where I usually will post updates and things like that. I also have a website, stardewvalley. net. Um, and you can find the cookbook on pretty much all the major platforms, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all those things. Um, so yeah, go check it out. Awesome. I'm excited. We're going to be doing some cooking later. Oh, I guess. Absolutely. All right. Thanks, Eric. Thank you.