Influencing, Nudging and Advocating with Angela Owen OBE

Meet Angela Owen OBE, the founder of Women in Defence UK and a 2024 Northern Power Women Awards finalist!

Discover how Angela transitioned from a military career to founding an organisation advocating for gender equality in the defence sector. 

And hear Angela's story of being the second ever mother to re-join the military...

Listen to learn:
- The evolving policies and attitudes towards women in the military
- About the Women in Defence UK mentoring programme 
- Angela's experience competing at the Commonwealth Games
- How a small LinkedIn group grew into an organisation for gender equality

You can now nominate for the 2025 Northern Power Women Awards to be in with a chance of celebrating with changemakers, trailblazers and advocates on 6th March 2025! Nominate now at wearepower.net

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

Hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast Northern Power Women podcast for your career and your life, no matter what business you're in. Hello and welcome to the we Are Power podcast. This is the podcast that is all about highlighting brilliant role models and sharing their inspiring personal and professional stories, and we also hope that you can pick up some strategies, advice, guidance, top tips, whatever it may be, to help you, whether you're in your career, whether it's your life or whatever adventure you're currently on. And this week I'm really excited to introduce one of our 2024 Northern Power Women Awards. Powerlister and also finalist in the 2024 Northern Power Women Awards. Founder of Women in Defence UK and who's awarded at NoBE in the New Year's Honours List 2021 for services to women who work in the defence sector Miss Angela Owen, obe. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Simone, it is so lovely to see you and I'm a great admirer of everything you've done in Northern Power Women. So well done.

Speaker 1: 1:37

And it was brilliant. Was it last gosh? Was it before Christmas, I think? We found ourselves in Portsmouth together and I think that was, and we were at this round table which is always funny because it's never a round table at all, and that was the first time. It was quite mind boggling because it was the first time we had ever been in a room together, I think, or had a conversation. We might've been in the room together, but it was definitely the first time we had that. For that speed.

Speaker 2: 2:00

We had a really good talk and the men kept on coming up and interrupting us. I was thinking go away.

Speaker 1: 2:07

Second Sea Lord, when did your drive to join the military from? Because we both have that military background. What was that sort of defining sort of moment for you that went? That's my path and that's where I'm going.

Speaker 2: 2:21

It wasn't that decisive. Actually, Going back a very, very long time, I chose the wrong A-levels and so did, appalling me badly at them, so didn't get my university offer. Not surprisingly and quite rightly and a friend of mine, I'm from the Isle of man small community. I knew I wanted to do something outside the Isle of man. A friend of mine had joined the army first and came back and talked of handsome young officers, tables groaning with silver, and it was a good job as well, and I thought, well, that sounds okay, I'll try that. And that's literally how it happened.

Speaker 1: 2:57

It's interesting. I have the same story where I did the wrong A-levels as well and I kind of was halfway through and I'm thinking this is not for me, I need that next adventure. What did you do out of interest? What were your subjects?

Speaker 2: 3:10

I did German, french and English and, to be honest, do you know what? I'm not in the slightest bit interested, sorry to say, in Baudelaire, or on Durand-Marthe, the Basooks, the Al, the Basooks, that Alton Dharma, you know? I had about 15 books and I thought, oh God, this is St Don, so it was the wrong idea. But you know what, it doesn't matter, I don't have a degree, I still don't have a degree, but it hasn't worked, it hasn't worked, yeah, but it's not the military.

Speaker 1: 3:35

your degree, I always think you know, were 30 years in, weren't you? So that's sort of the the law, the lure for you of kind of going, sort of leaving the isle of man and and sort of all that offered kind of took you in sort of a bigger adventure well it did.

Speaker 2: 3:56

I mean I was actually only in for 23 years because I had eight years out in the middle. I was caught up in the generation that you had to leave when you had kids. So I was out for eight years. Then they changed the rules and I came back in, so it spammed 13 years, but it was sort of 23. But once you're in, the purpose behind being in the army or the navy or the world air force just grabs you. Because what greater purpose is there even at sort of 1920, than defending the nation? So that's what grabbed me, kept me.

Speaker 1: 4:28

It's interesting to say you had that career break in the middle, because you almost can't believe it now, can you? You know it was illegal, sort of back in my day, to be. You couldn't be gay, you couldn't have a family and you could have a different notice period to leave. You were getting married too. It was a different world, but it was something I suppose we had accepted back in those early days. But yeah, I still can't quite believe it. And you were one of those first mothers or mums to rejoin the army after the changes in regulations. Someone beat me to it.

Speaker 2: 5:04

I was the second mother to rejoin when they changed the regulations and it was a legal officer who I worked with. Cecilia beat me to it by about a week. I'm so irritated still that she was the sort of I was the second.

Speaker 1: 5:19

Competitive Angela Competitive Competitive still it's dreadful.

Speaker 2: 5:24

I wish I wasn't sometimes, but there you go.

Speaker 1: 5:26

And what did you and Cecilia face? What sort of what were those challenges at that time that you faced and how did you kind of beat them down? It was really interesting.

Speaker 2: 5:37

We got challenges from both men and women. You know the number of times I was told well, you should not be back in, you should be at home looking after your children, yes, okay, well, I'm not, I'm here. But also there was a more interesting sort of kickback from women, because women had made the decision not to have a family and to have a career and then, all of a sudden, here we were coming back, having had both and wanting both. So you know, not surprisingly, they felt well, this isn't really fair. I had to give up the chance of having a family so I could pursue my career, and now these women are coming in, wanting both. So it was an interesting time coming back in.

Speaker 1: 6:14

Yeah, and what motivated you to set up Women in Defence UK?

Speaker 2: 6:19

So I left the army in 2008. I realised I was getting out of step with the army's views on women and I wanted to leave, while I still loved it and that was great. So I left in 2008, joined a consulting company, but working in the defense sector, and I'd go to conferences and seminars and there'd be a hundred men in the room and maybe six women apart from the ones serving the tea and coffee were men in the room and maybe six women apart from the ones serving the tea and coffee, and it was just so nice to see the women because, I mean, you'll recognize this, you serve so often in singleton posts in defense. You're the only woman. It was just so lovely to see women and chat with them. I thought I'll set up a LinkedIn group with no vast plans of let's. You know, in 10 years we'll be doing this, or five years we'll be doing this. I just thought I'll set up a LinkedIn group and see what happens, and that's how we started.

Speaker 1: 7:08

And at what point did you think actually this is going to probably consume our whole world for the next sort of decade or more.

Speaker 2: 7:16

I don't think there was a tipping point, but it just creeps up on you. I mean, you all understand this. You start off thinking we'll run some networking groups, some networking sessions, and think, wow, that's great, you've got 20 people to a networking session. And then we think we went to a Businesswoman of the Year awards luncheon in Birmingham and it was a slightly liquid lunch and we sat around the table and said we can do this, we'll run a Women in Defence Awards. And that's literally how we started. And we started off quite small, with five categories. We've now got 10 categories. We held the first dinner at the Honourable Artillery Company, who very kindly allowed us to hold it in their mess, and it's just grown and grown and grown since then and we've done more things and we've changed focus. You know we're now about trying to help organisations to change Less about a sort of supporting women. You know it's more about organisations. And how do you?

Speaker 1: 8:19

approach sort of you talk about that company approach, but how does Women in Defence UK approach that advocacy for gender equality within the defence sector In a few ways I mean so.

Speaker 2: 8:30

First of all, we're very deliberately trying to get as many companies or organisations involved as we can. Companies and organisations are doing incredible things in the gender space, but they're largely doing them in stovepipes. So we've got about 40 partners, sponsors, and what we say to them is all right, what are you doing? That's really good in the gender space? Now share it. You share it with us so we can create this critical mass of leading practice, and it's working. We've got a critical mass community that's growing. Partners come on, they'll talk about what they're doing. They'll write a blog. Afterwards We'll put the blog on the website. We've got a critical like.

Speaker 2: 9:10

We run a critical mass summit every year where we bring in people from outside of the sector and say what are you doing? That's good. That could really help the sector. What about some new ideas? Last year, we had the Football Association talking about women's football. How have they got that off the ground? This year, we've got an Elliot Ray who is all about fathers are parents too. We want to talk about retention, and he's going to talk about the relationship between fathers being able to take parental leave and the effect on women's retention. So we just come in with ideas and say this might not be perfect, but there might be something in here let's just share. I mean, the other thing we do is we contribute to command papers and so on for the MOD. So the MOD are partners with us as well.

Speaker 1: 9:56

And that knowledge share, I think, is you talk about critical mass, but that knowledge share and knowledge exchange is so powerful, isn't it? Because I think nobody's there. They, angela, nobody is there and is across the line on this, nor ever will be, because we're in a challenging world and changing situations and changing the way we work and and the way we and new generations come in. So it's there's no, there's no finish post for this. Is there?

Speaker 2: 10:21

yeah, ed and I isn't a program with a start date and an end date, because what you're trying to achieve emerges and evolves over time. You know, sort of 10 years ago it was, can women do the same jobs as men? Now it's. Can we please get flexible working in place? Can we make sure that parental leave or childcare is able to be balanced between the genders? The goal is constantly changing, so it's not a program with a start and finish date, and what are you most proud of of the impact that Critical Mass has had?

Speaker 1: 10:54

Gosh, that's a hard one.

Speaker 2: 10:56

Do you know? I tend this is going to sound dreadful, but I tend not to think of pride at the moment. I'll probably think of pride when I give it up and look back on it, because it's really hard for us to say that happened as a result of what we've done, because linking our work and a specific outcome, a specific output, is really hard, because we are influencing, we're nudging, we're advocating, we're sort of trying everything we can to move things forward, but there's no direct relationship and you talk about.

Speaker 1: 11:30

sometimes we just keep moving forward, don't we? It is like sometimes being on a whitewater raft, I think this world it's important to take that, stop and reflect back. Did you do that? Take that, stop and reflect back. Did you do that? I'm mindful of, obviously. We're in the King's Awards honours sort of being announced recently and you know, I always find it really important to kind of go through the list, find out those amazing people and celebrate them because it's almost quite, and send those messages because it's almost an awkward thing, because it is about you. It's that recognition for you, not women in defense, or how did you? Did you take time to reflect when you got that honor?

Speaker 2: 12:09

probably. In fact, my brother was in the king's awards this year in this week. Right then my mother was on the isle of man. My mother was an mbe. My brother's just been made an MBE, my sister-in-law is a BEM. So no pressure on our children whatsoever. There must be something, either in the water on the Isle of man or in the blood or whatever. So I'm probably prouder of my brother than I am of me, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 12:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:44

What did he get his honour for, angela. So Stephen is, or has been, all his life, a pilot, so the pilot that brings the ships into harbour, and he's also what's called a captain of the parish.

Speaker 1: 12:55

You know, the island does things in its own way, so I was so pleased for him when he made MBE Wow, and those pilots, I watched them for him when he made NBE Wow, and those pilots, I watched them. I watched the new Cunard ship, Queen Anne, come into Liverpool a few weeks ago and you know I'm always in awe of the pilots that go out and you know they know those waters like the back of the hand, and your brother will know obviously in and around the Isle of man and that so well, high five to him. High five Stephen. Did you say Stephen Carter? High five to Stephen.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Tell us about the cross-sector defence mentoring programme that you've launched. So this is now we've just finished the fourth programme of this. What we do here is that companies, organisations buy a number of pairs. A pair is a mentee women only and a mentor any gender, and what we are really trying to do is to say we're going to match I don't know a major female major from the army with a director from BAE systems, so that we've got that common sector knowledge. But the armed forces and the private sector and the civil service and the private sector just think in very, very different ways, and so what we're trying to do is to bring that different perspective to bear, and it's been incredibly powerful, it's been incredibly successful. We've had, I don't know, 1,200 people through it since we started. As I say, we're about to launch the next one, which will kick off in the autumn. It just brings that real diversity of thought that you need. You know that different challenge, people who can look at it with different eyes but understand all the background as well.

Speaker 1: 14:32

So really pleased with that. I'm always a big fan of that. I think back in the day when I worked for an organisation called Women First and we started the mentoring up there, I couldn't. There was nothing more sort of enjoyable than sort of mentoring someone or sort of connecting someone from sort of who drove a train to somebody who worked in the facilities management. You know so, in that, if you like that hospitality, visitor economy, we're doing that cross sector where there's no compete, but there's that.

Speaker 1: 14:57

It goes back to that shared learning and shared knowledge, isn't it? And the mentoring that sits both ways. I always think it's a, it's a two-way street. I think mentors are always, always come to me like buzzing because they've gained so much from it as a mentor as well as as as kind of the knowledge they've imparted. But I think one of the things that's fascinating, apart from this, you know so accomplished career and the, the real commitment with you which you've sort of set up Women in Defence, grown it and now critical mass as well. But what I hadn't been aware was of your athletics career, and not only that, but the fact that you're reprising it, albeit, as you say, albeit a bit slowly.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Running's always been important to me. Some people are born able to sing or to paint. I was born able to run fast. It's a fact. I've got the right muscle fibres for being able to sprint. I was lucky enough to compete in the Commonwealth Games in 82 in Brisbane, gave up after that and then about five years ago thought you know what? I'll give it a go again. I mean, I'm now in. The way that it works for masters, veterans, athletes is that you're in age brackets. So I'm in the 65 and over age bracket. It takes an awful lot to keep my body working and that is sort of the biggest, biggest challenge. I've got a physio, anacard I see, probably once a week. I've got a or once a fortnight. I've got a sports massage, catherine, who sees me another week just to keep my legs moving at the moment. Is is a challenge, but it's really important to me and it's important it's.

Speaker 1: 16:41

it's the physical challenge, but it's that mental challenge, isn't it? As well as the focus that, while you're prepping and training, you've got to be present, haven't you? You can't be allowing all others to be thinking over here about critical mass and women in tracks, and that's tough when you're doing this yourself.

Speaker 2: 16:58

It's actually a really good timeout. It's a really good time out. It gives my brain downtime for women in defence.

Speaker 1: 17:04

So, angela, we just talk about your career, your side hustle over here in athletics. I know that you're a very proud mum and grandmother, but what is next for you? I know legacy is really important to you, as well as women in defence, but what's next, do you know? I really don't know.

Speaker 2: 17:28

That's a really hard question. What's next? I mean for women in defence, it's continuing to build it, but for me personally, I don't know. I honestly don't know. It's going to be, something will come to me. What I do know is I can't't know it's going to be, something will come to me. What I do know is I can't do nothing. I would be utterly impossible if I sort of gave up work completely, just impossible to live with. I've got to be achieving things. I've got to achieve things. Probably shows a deep-seated insecurity or something, but no, I don't know. Let's wait and see. It'll be interesting to see what it is.

Speaker 1: 18:09

And actually it's where it comes to you. It comes to you on the track, on a train, by looking after the grandkids, whatever it may be. Well, we will wait with bated breath and watch and constantly support from the sidelines here as to all the brilliant work you're doing, Angela.

Speaker 2: 18:25

Thank you so much for joining us, Simone as ever, it has been absolutely glorious to talk with you. We should talk more often.

Speaker 1: 18:32

And thanks all of you for joining us. We love your feedback. We love your comments. Please leave us a review. Every week, I'm talking to wonderful humans like Angela. Well, everyone's got a different story, everyone has that different adventure, and I hope you take away some of those brilliant top tips and guidance as well. So thank you so much for joining us. My name's Simone. This is the we Are Power podcast of what Goes on Media Productions.