See You On The Other Side
83 | Just Don't It (A New Perspective on Depression and Anxiety)
Peeling back the curtain on mental health, we tackle the unspoken with raw honesty and a touch of humor, sharing our unique paths through the shadows of depression, anxiety, and the transformative power of psychedelic therapy. These are not just clinical terms or distant concepts; they're chapters in our story and maybe yours, too. Join us as we confront the societal pressures to keep silent and, instead, choose to celebrate the courage it takes to face our innermost struggles head-on.
These conversations are more than just confessions; they're a beacon of hope for anyone feeling alone in their journey, a reminder that the descent into healing, though daunting, can lead to remarkable growth and empowerment.
By the end of our time together, we're not just discussing mental health; we're living it, breathing it, and redefining it. Through laughter, tears, and profound insights, this episode is an invitation to embrace the full spectrum of our emotions and the rich tapestry they weave in our lives. So, take a break from the 'Just Do It' mantra and join us as we discover the joy in 'Just Don't' – because sometimes, the bravest thing you can do is just be.
The Heroine's Journey: https://amzn.to/4bDNVsX
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https://www.buzzsprout.com/1982724/support
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
Peeling back the curtain on mental health, we tackle the unspoken with raw honesty and a touch of humor, sharing our unique paths through the shadows of depression, anxiety, and the transformative power of psychedelic therapy. These are not just clinical terms or distant concepts; they're chapters in our story and maybe yours, too. Join us as we confront the societal pressures to keep silent and, instead, choose to celebrate the courage it takes to face our innermost struggles head-on.
These conversations are more than just confessions; they're a beacon of hope for anyone feeling alone in their journey, a reminder that the descent into healing, though daunting, can lead to remarkable growth and empowerment.
By the end of our time together, we're not just discussing mental health; we're living it, breathing it, and redefining it. Through laughter, tears, and profound insights, this episode is an invitation to embrace the full spectrum of our emotions and the rich tapestry they weave in our lives. So, take a break from the 'Just Do It' mantra and join us as we discover the joy in 'Just Don't' – because sometimes, the bravest thing you can do is just be.
The Heroine's Journey: https://amzn.to/4bDNVsX
1:1 Discovery Calls
Are psychedelics right for you on your healing journey? Book a discovery call to ask us anything.
Colors
Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off
Microdosify
Use code SYOTOS for 10% off
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1982724/support
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
we have so much to unpack today. Yeah, and it's an episode that I have we've been wanting to do it, but I feel like now is the time to do it.
Speaker 2:With may being mental health May is mental health awareness month.
Speaker 1:I have gone through many an Instagram posts during may before in my times of struggle. Um, no, no, I'm not even going to say that. I opened up about my mental health during Mental Health Awareness Month years ago and the amount of people that bombarded me in the DMs with like, oh my God, are you okay? Do you want to talk about it? We can, you know, you reach out if you ever want to chat, and I'm like, I'm fine now. You didn't see me when I was struggling. Yeah, like you didn't know when I was struggling. I'm posting about it now because I'm out of it, and I think that that's a thing a lot of people don't understand.
Speaker 2:Well, that's funny. You say that because I've gotten that too, where I've posted about my struggles and people have been like, oh my God, do you need anything, are you okay? And I'm like listen, yes, but vulnerability is a superpower. Yeah, but it's almost like we're so conditioned to think it's like this weakness, yeah, when it's like, no, I'm getting myself out of it, but it's like I'm empowered because I'm sharing that. I went through this and got through this, and you're seeing it as like, oh, poor you.
Speaker 2:And it's like, no, when I was down, bad, you didn't even fucking know, right, and I did that on purpose I think a lot of people do Right Because you're, you feel shame and so you put on that mask and and so, like me being like no, I really did struggle. I really did struggle on a deep level. I think that's coming from an empowered place. It can totally kid yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's sometimes the opposite, like, um sure, I see people sometimes will post you know, I'm in the worst low of my life right now and I don't know what to do Like they'll post statuses and updates and things like that, and to me like that is a definite cry for help, because if you're posting that while you're in it, like that's extremely brave of you and, yes, somebody needs to check on you. But if you are posting like this is what I went through and this is how hard it was like nine times out of 10, you're not in it anymore. Right, you've gotten out of it. Nine times out of 10, you're not in it anymore. Right, you've gotten out of it. But I wanted to talk about mental health, because where I am with it now and what I think about depression and anxiety now is very different than what I thought about it when I was in it years ago. I feel like you would say the same thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely so. We've learned so much what. What did you think about it when?
Speaker 1:you were in it. What was your feelings and experience in the moment? I hate to? I hate to do story time, but I feel like I have to do like a little bit of a back track, because the first time I ever experienced depression, um was after I had my daughter. I was diagnosed with postpartum depression and anxiety. I didn't even know it until she was a year old and it blew my fucking mind. This is in 2006. She was born in 2006. And it wasn't until 2007 that I realized. Did you say 2006? I did.
Speaker 2:I meant to say 2016. That's very inaccurate 2016.
Speaker 1:A whole decade later I was like she's not that old, she's seven. So the math wasn't math.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. I never would have noticed. Tell me to interrupt.
Speaker 1:No, I was like Thank you for that, Thank you for that 2016,. I had my daughter and it wasn't until 2017 that my husband was like I think you might be depressed. What did? How did it show up? I don't even know how to describe it because it wasn't what I thought it was. It was this feeling of like you know, people talk about the baby blues and the baby blues are like they're supposed to go away. They never went away. But I wasn't sad all the time. I wasn't suicidal. I wasn't in my room crying all the time, Like so. I didn't want to hurt my baby for some fucking reason. I thought that postpartum depression, the marker of postpartum depression, was if you wanted to hurt yourself or your baby. I can't be the only one who thought that.
Speaker 2:No, and I want to put a pin. I want to hear your story because I never thought I had depression and I always had depression, because I thought depression was oh, you can't get out of bed, you're just. You know you can't do anything, and it can look like it can be that, but mine wasn't that.
Speaker 1:Well. So it was a lot of like feeling like I was drowning for a year and also just accepting it and and instead of saying there's something wrong, I was very much like well, I guess this is just life with three kids. I had no idea it would be this hard and this is just what the rest of my life is going to look like. I had no idea it would be this hard and this is just what the rest of my life is going to look like. And I was in my head about like I shouldn't have had a third kid. I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have wanted another baby. Like I didn't know it was going to be this hard. Nobody told me it was going to be this hard, you know like.
Speaker 1:So to me, what I was experiencing was just life with a third child. That's what I thought it was. So what really scares me is people who get that, who are diagnosed with postpartum depression with their first child because they don't know any difference. So I'm like they really probably are thinking oh my God, this is what life with a baby is like. This is what being a mom is like. I didn't know it was going to be like this. I had two other kids. So like I still didn't understand it, I still was like well, it's that third one. It just kind of pushed me over the edge and life is never going to be the same. So when he was like I think you might be depressed, I was like no, no.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:Did it offend you? I? I was a little bit like I'm not depressed, you're just being an asshole. So, yes, it was a little bit it offended me, cause I was like I'm not fucking depressed, yeah, no. So, um, he was like I think you might want to talk to your doctor, my OB, um, but I Googled it after that, cause you know me and my rabbit holes, and I Googled it and like what the symptoms and signs of postpartum depression were, and I was like nine out of 10, like nine out of 10. I was like, oh fuck, I didn't know this. There are so many signs and symptoms of depression. I'm going to give an example.
Speaker 1:I did end up going on antidepressants for a little bit. I tried really hard to avoid them. I sat on this prescription for like several months and I was like I'll start working out and then I'll get better, and then I'll start doing this and then it'll get better, and it never got better. So I did go on antidepressants, um for about six months or so and then I weaned myself off. Um, I didn't like the way they made me feel. I felt like they made me feel very numb, um, which I guess works for some people.
Speaker 2:Can. Can I share something that you've shared with me that like sticks out to me? Yeah, you said once that when you were on antidepressants, like Jason was still an addict. Yeah, and so let's say he would go out, yeah, you'd be in before the antidepressants. It would make you upset. Yeah. Where then on the antidepressants, you're like meh.
Speaker 1:I was very numb to my emotions.
Speaker 2:And it's even the good ones he liked me better or even the ones where you should feel angry because it's valid.
Speaker 1:Or you know what I mean. The reason I got off of them was because I was watching um, a star is born with a friend and I don't want to give the movie away, but there's a part of the movie where something very emotional happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I didn't cry. And I am a big crier, as we all know. I am big in my feelings. So for me not to cry and look over and see this other person very emotional, I'm like what's wrong with me? Why am I not crying? But then I started to realize all the things that it was making me numb to.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I was very apathetic in our relationship, like he was very much still an addict, he was very much still going out and not coming home, and I just stopped caring, like I didn't have any emotions over it. So, yeah, there was a point where, when I came off of them and started having these feelings come up again, it was a lot. It was a lot. And he was also like I liked you better on medicine because I didn't get angry, I didn't get upset about what he was doing. I was, I was a shell of myself. Even my aunt, who you met this past weekend, was like your sparkle was gone, there was something off, and I didn't. She didn't tell me this until after I came back off of him and I was like, explaining this but like you don't know, you're in that until you come out of it, and I was like, oh my God, I wasn't just like complacent and content and happy, I was numbed to what was going on around me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so well, and I was just going to say like I think a lot of people are scared of feelings, I can see why Right, and I and I and I understand it and I get it, yeah, but like Jason being like, oh wow, she's feeling things like you should go back on medicine, yeah, which I want to get into that later too, absolutely Well.
Speaker 1:And so the the scared of feelings like those feelings were telling me so many things. My panic attacks were telling me things, my anxiety was telling me things, that depression was telling me stuff, and I was just trying to get rid of it because it didn't feel good yeah. Yeah, because it didn't feel good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think even in my relationship being married to an alcoholic he preferred me to not have feelings. You know we've come a long way Right Since then. Now I'll just cry on for nothing.
Speaker 2:I can feel that I'm going to cry this episode. I can literally just feel it. You can feel it. I don't know when it. You can feel it. I don't know when it's coming, but it'll happen, it'll happen.
Speaker 1:So I'm thank you for like sharing that part, because there there's so much to it there's no way I can touch on it in one episode or in one little story time. So, um, depression for me wasn't what I thought. There was another instance. I had a client years ago tell me, you know, she would open up to me about things and, um, I, one of the things that she was feeling a lot of was like rage and anger, bouts of anger, and I remember at the end of the at the end she was just like you know I opened up to my therapist and she told me I was worried, I was depressed, and she told me well, you can't be depressed because you're you're angry, and if you're depressed you don't feel anger. And I, I interjected no.
Speaker 1:I interjected and I said I I hate to like say anything about your therapist, but what worries me about what she said is that when you look up the signs and the symptoms of depression, anger is one of them and it's like bursts of anger. And so I said I don't know that what she said is accurate. I would feel bouts of rage all the time when I was depressed and I got in my head about it because afterwards I was like I shouldn't have said that. Oh my God, like now she's going to hate me. The next appointment she came to me and she was just like you were right. Turns out I was depressed and I was like, oh, thank God, because I felt like I overstepped. You know I felt like I overstepped. You know I felt like I overstepped by saying that.
Speaker 2:But I'm happy that I shared.
Speaker 1:Cause I was like I didn't, but I I thought I did at the time. This was years ago. I was finding my voice at the time and every time it came out I'd be like, oh God, oh God, it came out Well and the inside thoughts came out.
Speaker 2:Well, and to share, like about me, I never thought I was depressed. Yeah, because I was angry and so like if I would have had someone like you who was like, no, I don't think that's just whatever. Like I think that there might be some, some sadness and grief there. So, like you brought up your aunt, yeah, I met her this past weekend and she is divine, absolutely lovely, like, so wonderful, and like she's the first again human design, but she's the first reflector that I've ever met and I know, and it was like whatever anyone, any person needed, she had this way of like giving it back. Yeah, it's kind of wild and hard to explain but she is nasty with her.
Speaker 1:She's going to be nasty back.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, scorpio sis, but what I was going to say is we were talking the other night and she sent me like a really nice message, like it was so nice meeting you, yada, yada, yada, and you're like I love her so much and I'm like I get it, yeah, fuck.
Speaker 1:Are you going to cry? I'm sorry, I'm not sorry. It's just feelings, it's just emotions, it's okay. We can't reach the clean end of this.
Speaker 2:But she's wonderful and you said she was my safe space. Did you have that In any aunts or uncles or anybody? And I was like no, I didn't. And I really needed it badly. And I never thought I was depressed because I went to work, I went to school, did college, did all the things. But I was so angry. But the reason why I was angry is because there was so much grief, because I didn't have anybody and I didn't have support and I didn't have the tools. But a lot of things happened and I didn't know what to do with it all and it was a lot and I really wish I would have had that. And again, I've done a lot of healing. But that moment it made me feel when we had that conversation, it made me feel really sad. That conversation it made me feel really sad but it also made me feel really proud of myself for the work that I've done. Yeah, um, I told you it was coming we didn't know it'd be that quick I could feel it.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't even know where I was going with that. But again, I think a lot of people think that depression is this like one size fits all, and it's not that it doesn't look, and so I spent a lot of years suffering because I didn't think I was depressed, I just thought I was angry. But it was really like I genuinely, genuinely did have depression and I had depression for most of my life and I didn't. I didn't know it and I didn't have help. I didn't have tools.
Speaker 1:So thank you for sharing that. I feel really bad. Don't feel bad, I shouldn't. I know I'm sorry. Bad, don't feel bad, I shouldn't. I know I'm sorry. Yeah, don't feel bad. Okay, I knew that that conversation was like it hit yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, there's this. You know, yours, I think yours, was a lot of anger and mine was a lot of sadness yeah and that's how it showed up.
Speaker 1:I would cry every day on my way to work and it's like thinking back. Now I'm like duh, motherfucker. I was crying every day on my way to work, but I would just chalk it up to feeling well, I'm overwhelmed and this is my break from my family life, but I also feel like being at work was not a break. Yeah, you know, but can I say why?
Speaker 2:I wasn't sad. Yeah, I wasn't safe enough to. I didn't feel safe enough to be sad holy shit, holy shit.
Speaker 1:So anger was yeah, felt safe for you. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense Because it was that makes me like just want to hug you so bad. I'm sorry, no it's okay. God, not even like 10 minutes in Jesus, 20 minutes in, it's just feelings. It's just feelings, no.
Speaker 2:It's not a big deal I didn't have. I didn't feel safe to be sad. That was way too vulnerable for me, so angry was the mask that I wore, and I wore it so people wouldn't mess with me.
Speaker 1:You wore it Well. You wore it Well. I think I remember talking to you in the beginning of our like newfound friendship, like about depression and what it was like for me and you being like wait a minute, was I depressed? Was that what I was feeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's interesting is, several years later, my husband, I started noticing um the same signs and symptoms, like just this feeling of like unworthiness, like hopelessness, feeling stuck in life, not like he used to always say to me and this is pre sober husband, like you have nothing to be depressed about. Like you have three healthy kids. Like look at our life, Our life is so good. Like we have food on the table and clothes and shelter, and like life is good. Why are you so depressed? And I'm like, and that would make me feel even worse, yeah.
Speaker 1:It didn't help at all, because then I would be like you're right, right. Why am I depressed? And I would like get depression guilt?
Speaker 2:Because I think there's a lot of shame with it there is. There's so much shame with it. Yeah, so you know I, I totally understand that.
Speaker 1:So when he started to get there and I'm looking at him seeing the signs, seeing the symptoms, and it went on for a few months. And I'm looking at him seeing the signs, seeing the symptoms, and it went on for a few months and I finally said I think I think you're depressed, right, this is before he ever did his first mushroom journey, which we don't have to get into that. But he did his first mushroom journey because he was depressed, not because he was trying to get sober. Oh shit, I don't know if you knew that. I don't know why I do that.
Speaker 1:No, he did it because he was depressed and he wanted out of it. He didn't like it. So I was like, I came to him, he's opening up to me and I was like yeah, I think you're depressed. He's like no, I'm not sad. And I'm like I think you have a very big misunderstanding of what depression actually is, like I can see it in you. And it took him going to his doctor, who's a male, and his doctor prescribing him Wellbutrin and saying I think you're depressed. For him to come home and be like I think I'm depressed.
Speaker 2:Did he take Wellbutrin? He didn't.
Speaker 1:No he's always been very anti medication for himself, because his mother is very highly medicated and even with me being on medication at first, he was like hesitant, like that's why I didn't take it for a while. Because he was like maybe if you start working out, maybe if you start going outside more, maybe if you start journaling, like you know, he did try to help when nothing helped and nothing helped because I was in a toxic relationship and not a safe environment to feel my feelings Right. So, yeah, I ended up I want to say caving, I don't think of it that way now. But I caved and I was just like, fuck it, I'm going on meds, give it that way now. But I caved and I was just like fucking, I'm going on meds. Um, so yeah, interesting, because he asked me to guide him on a mushroom journey because he was depressed and he didn't want to be depressed anymore and it pulled him out of it. Pulled him out of that, but then it started to show him his shit yeah and life for him got much harder afterwards.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, I didn't want, I didn't mean to like. That's what I'm like. This is a really big episode. I don't know how we're going to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like this might be a long one.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I'm so sorry. It's. It's just an interesting, it's an. It's a very large topic, but I think it needs to be talked about. So, um, after my first round of like postpartum depression, getting on medication, weaning off after six months um, it felt like it had gone away. And then it came back a few years later. Um, like right before COVID hit, came back and in my mind I'm thinking, okay, well, it's not postpartum anymore, this is just depression. Like I could feel it and it felt the same and I was like well, I guess I am just going to have this on and off the rest of my life now and it's just the way I am, and it's a chemical imbalance and something is wrong with me. So, like, every time I start feeling depressed, I'm going to start, I'm going to go back on the meds for a little while and then wean myself off.
Speaker 2:I so relate to that feeling of doom.
Speaker 1:This is just how I am.
Speaker 2:This is just how it's going to be. This is just how I'm going to feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it comes and goes Sure and that's just kind of what I thought, that like it was going to be for the rest of my life, like I'm just going to be this person who comes in and out of depressive episodes, this person who comes in and out of depressive episodes. And the weird thing is like the second time around I knew it, I could feel it. I could feel it as it was almost like this, like wave coming towards me and I couldn't like escape it. I was like I could feel it coming. There's nothing I can do about it. Here we go again, you know. And then about six months after that is when I did my first mushroom journey somebody we had somebody on a podcast previously who was talking about mushrooms and mental health and depression and anxiety, and I was like it blew my fucking mind and we've said it before, you had a podcast about cannabis.
Speaker 2:I wasn't the co-host, but you were all the cannabis trained and now I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not like a hater no, no, no At all Like I just don't use it the way I used to use it. Well, you used to use it as an escape. Yes, a hundred percent. I started to realize I was doing exactly what my husband was doing, just in a different way.
Speaker 2:I think too, like intention, with everything, matters so much, whether it's a substance, it's literally everything in your life. Intention matters. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:About. That was interesting. Side note Um, a couple of weeks ago I was at the track with a group of friends and the person who was working in our um um suite who was just like kind of the hostess, um, doing all the food and the drinks and stuff, for some reason we got talking about anxiety and she was like you know, they make, they make meds for that. And she wasn't talking to me, but then the conversation kind of went on from there. She was like see, the trick is, though, don't take them too long, wean off of them, because otherwise you'll get addicted and you'll stay on them for the rest of your life because they'll just keep upping your dose. And so even her view of like being on the medication to help with anxiety was just like don't stay on them too long, wean yourself off.
Speaker 2:But I also think that's much easier said than done.
Speaker 1:It's absolutely much easier said than done, but I was just like good for you for not like Right, just saying just use this for the rest of your life, yeah, and up your dose when it stops working and try this one when that one stops working, and maybe if you try this one on top of this one that'll work, you know. So I like what she said about it, but to me that was like intention matters. So if you have to have it, okay, maybe you don't have a safe space, maybe you don't have an environment where you can feel like you can work through these issues, and medication is like the only option that you have. But for me personally, what I would believe, and now that, looking back, I would say get yourself into a position where you can work through those things, find a safe place, get a safe environment, remove yourself from the toxic environment so you can work on those things and heal those things.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, I was going to read something that I wrote. I feel like we have several things that we have. I remember this. Okay, so I wrote this after my second mushroom journey, which came about a year after my first one, so 2021, this was October 21 that I wrote this and I just had all of these realizations about depression because I did my second journey, because I was in a depressive episode again. I was like what the fuck?
Speaker 2:Well, so you were in probably the worst depressive episode you've ever had.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because of, like Jason was deep in his addiction. There was a lot of like you did not have a good environment around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and if I can rewind a little bit, um, I did my first journey June of 2021 or June of 2020. My husband did not get sober until June of 2021. A few months after his first journey. So a year later, he gets sober and I start slipping into like one of the worst depressive episodes of my life. And it didn't make sense to me at the time, Cause I'm like he's getting sober, what the fuck is wrong with me?
Speaker 1:And our psychiatrist, dr Shealy dude. My man said to me well, it makes sense to me because it's like you've been holding your breath for 15 years and you're finally able to let go and breathe, and so all of this stuff is coming up that you've been avoiding and suppressing because you've just been in survival mode. So I never thought of it that way, but I that's exactly as soon as he said that, I was like, oh my God, that makes so much sense because now he's doing the work. But all this shit that I've been like pushing down and pushing down and pushing down is starting to come up because it's starting to get safe.
Speaker 1:That's something I don't think people talk about enough is how much comes up when you're in it, when you are finally in a safe environment, oh my god yeah with someone who's safe in a safe household like that's when all this shit starts to surface, because you wouldn't be able to survive if it was just like all the time right even now I could.
Speaker 2:I could feel myself getting emotional because it's a it's a heavy topic and it's something that I never used to ever talk about.
Speaker 1:Well, you said just right then, like you had a safe space, right.
Speaker 2:And you didn't Like I feel safe to share it now. I didn't feel safe to share it before. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think you know even me crying, like oftentimes when, when that comes up, people feel like, oh, my God, I'm crying, you know, and I'm like no, but you need to cry.
Speaker 1:Right, you should cry, let it out.
Speaker 2:Right, Like was traumatic for you and so like suppressing it doesn't work, but anyways even when you think it does.
Speaker 1:It doesn't, even when you think it does like even my husband used to say well, what's the point of feeling it? That's not productive. I've got to, I've got to live my life, I've got to do my job, I've got to take care of my kids, I got to take care of my family, and I'm like you say that, but it keeps showing up. It keeps showing up in these other areas of your life, and so, while you think you're doing a really good job of like packing it away and there's no point in looking at it, I see it, I can see it. Still, you may not, but the people around you do, the people who love you do you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so after my second journey, which was when I was like in the lowest depressive episode of my life, because I was able to let go and finally breathe and I was finally safe, and what's wild is like I felt safe enough to like let it out, like I was having, like I don't even it. They felt bigger to me than panic attacks. They felt bigger than an anxiety attack. They were like full blown, just mental breakdowns where I wanted to be hospitalized because I didn't know how to stop them and my husband didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, it terrified him. Yeah, I think you needed to see it though.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, that's what got him sober Like cause. He was just like oh shit, I'm hurting someone.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize that I was doing this Right. So, yeah, those were the things that I was like pushing down. Anyway, see, now I'm like getting emotional. Jesus Christ, this is gonna be a tough one, Okay.
Speaker 1:So I wrote this out because I just had this different view of what depression was for me. I said hear me out. What if depression and anxiety is your body telling you that there's some healing you need to do. It's begging you to address it, to feel it and to learn from it.
Speaker 1:What if my postpartum depression wasn't just triggered because I had had a baby, but because I had had unhealed mother wounds that were magnified when I had a daughter of my own, and that the mother-daughter relationship I craved my entire life was just triggered and sent me into a spiral of emotions I wasn't prepared for that's interesting too, because I had two boys and I didn't feel it until I had her. But I had some deep, deep mother wounds, yeah, Um, and also like taking a step back and seeing my relationship for what it was and realizing like I would never want my daughter to be treated the way that I was treated ever. I don't know how to explain it, but it's different with boys. It's not because I didn't like. I felt like having her was like reliving my childhood.
Speaker 2:Oh, I get that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Well, and for me, like I have a lot of deep father wounds, yeah, and mother wounds, but you know.
Speaker 1:We got both. You know we're just a bag of tricks over here.
Speaker 2:So, you know, having a child has like, in a lot of ways it's can be very triggering, because you see this little innocent child, innocent child, and you're like, oh shit, I got treated in certain ways or was exposed to certain things or experienced certain things. I like literally can't imagine my son experiencing those things or not sitting with him and his feelings, or you know it's this blessing and a curse, because it's you feel a deep amount of grief. Yeah, becoming a mother, yeah, because you didn't get those things, yes, and you're giving those things.
Speaker 1:It's okay. This is kind of what I'm saying. Like that postpartum is like really like a reflection of, like, maybe something you didn't have as a child and realizing, like realizing you didn't I understand, I understand, it's okay. You want me to keep going? Okay, you're right, though, like it's you know, I saw the way that I finally like woke up to how I was being treated and I was just like I can't imagine my daughter like being in a relationship like this or having the childhood that I had, or and again, it's not that I didn't think that with my boys, but, like you know, I did my best to like give them a different life, but it was just that daughter hit me in my wounds.
Speaker 2:I also think too that, like when you had your boys, you were just surviving.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was in it so deep I didn't know what I was in. Right, I did not know. I didn't wake up to what I was in until I did. Mushrooms. Yeah, those are the. Show you your shit, and let me, let me remove that veil for you so you can get a glimpse of what your life is really like, and not what you thought it was. And that really fucked my world up. It really fucking did, Okay. So, um, what if? What if becoming a parent brings out our inner child and the pain that we felt? That was never acknowledged.
Speaker 1:How can you heal from something when you keep telling yourself there isn't anything to heal from? What if, instead of prescribing your medications at the first sign of depression, your doctor suggests you see a therapist or a psychiatrist or get help instead? What if they actually asked you what you've been going through, what your childhood was like, what kind of trauma you've experienced, the whys, the deep stuff that we don't even like to ask ourselves? What if, instead of accepting that it runs in your family and it's genetic, maybe it's there because of the generations of trauma and pain that have been ignored or swept under the rug and no one has been able to heal from them yet because they didn't know how. What if you're the one who's supposed to break that cycle? What if breaking that cycle means your children won't have to feel all the things you felt? They have better coping skills. They don't repeat the patterns you did. They recognize the red flags sooner. They know how to heal.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to cry. I kind of wrote this like three years ago and it still hits. What if we have to go in to get out of it? We're so busy trying to get out of our heads. But what if the answer is there?
Speaker 1:What if you can't fix your marriage or your relationships because you're working with two broken parts and until you fix those individually, nothing will ever be as good as a whole?
Speaker 1:What if you can both heal at the same time but you have to unlearn patterns you've both been holding onto for a very long time? And what if we can't heal because there are people in our lives holding us back and those people are hard to let go of Maybe their family, lifelong friends, spouses or significant others? What if, instead of medicating or drinking and disassociating and smoking yes, I said that because at the time I was smoking staying busy and ignoring the trauma to get out of our heads. We ask ourselves how we can move through them and heal from them, Ask ourselves where the pain is coming from and we ask ourselves why we continue to live the same things over and over. Why are we so okay with pretending we're okay when we're not? Why are we going through the motions of life of living but dying inside? That's all I wrote. And then I said this was shortly after my journey and I said one day I'll document and maybe share. Who knew that?
Speaker 1:I know right now I'm still processing, integrating, living. My first experience with mushrooms changed me. My last one saved me. I found myself again when I thought I had lost her. I realized that, as much as I feared abandonment, I had been abandoning myself. It helped me understand parenting my inner child, something I didn't want to do because I didn't think it was fair. We'll talk about that. It taught me how to love myself enough to want better, and I deserved better than what I had been allowing. So what's interesting is that same summer, a study came out proving proving Can, yes, share it.
Speaker 1:That depression is not a chemical imbalance. It's not. Let me tell you why. They will prescribe you SSRIs and SNRIs that are pumping you full of serotonin, because they have always said depression is a lack of serotonin. And what they have found in this study when studies come out like this, they've been working on them for decades, They've been trying to find the proof for decades. It's not just on a whim. This study came out. They have been working on this for a very long time and they were finally able to prove that depression has nothing to do with serotonin. You can have high levels of serotonin and still have depression. So, knowing that and here's what's wild the study came out in July of 2021.
Speaker 2:Nobody's talking about it.
Speaker 1:Nobody's talking about it. So my question is you know why?
Speaker 2:Because I feel like it doesn't fit the agenda Right and again.
Speaker 1:It's like when we had our episode on MDMA and Oprah did the episode where it puts holes in your brain and she didn't do the episode that debunked that. Right, it's like, oh, but that's not getting talked about. Right, the other side of it's not getting talked about.
Speaker 2:Well, and we are a pill pushing society. Yeah, that's the world that we live in, so something like that.
Speaker 1:And knowing what I know now and how it made me feel I can see why people push it. Yeah, like it removes your empathy in situations. Now, and how it made me feel I can see why people push it. Yeah, like you, it, it it. It removes your empathy in situations that I think that that's why we are such a world who is like, lacking empathy. You think you're empathetic but you're not. It removes that like it, it it. Oh, I can't even describe it like I had no empathy for what happened in that movie. I was very apathetic to what was going on in my life, but I, but I was complacent I do like how you're like, no, but usually like you had enough self-awareness where you're like usually something like this would make me sob because I would feel so sad for what's happening and I don't feel that.
Speaker 2:Why don't I feel that? Right, I think sometimes it may be hard for people to recognize that because they're so deep in it.
Speaker 1:And I also think that some people feel like it's not good to cry yeah, a lot. Well, yeah, we're a society, like I said we don't like feelings. Yeah, and, and I'm in a very different place now and I will cry 10 times a day and it's not, it's nothing. What did? You say Nothing, what did you say the other?
Speaker 2:day. Uh, our friend Sarah was like are you about to cry?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and you're like she goes, are you okay? I was like no no, you go yeah. Yeah and she goes. You look like you're about to cry and I was like I am, and then I just started bawling. But we were both laughing about it because she was like, are you okay? And I was like, yes, I'm just going to cry.
Speaker 2:Well, and also like even me crying earlier, like I feel, like I feel better that I released it Right you know what I mean Instead of holding it in Cause I could feel myself holding it in.
Speaker 1:I just I think it makes people really uncomfortable because they just want to fix it.
Speaker 2:But also they're uncomfortable because they're uncomfortable with their own feelings.
Speaker 1:Right so you having feelings is very uncomfortable for someone who is emotionally unavailable in a relationship is not able to sit with their own emotions. It has nothing to do with you. It's because they're emotionally unavailable for themselves. So, like all that crying and like they're like, I don't cry, I don't do that. I can't remember the last time I cried, right, well, that's not what are you what are you?
Speaker 1:stuffing. What are you avoiding? Like we are meant to feel, like we're meant to have emotions and to feel things deeply. So, um, where was I going with that? The chemical imbalance? The chemical imbalance, it's not a thing. So again, I'm not on here like hating on anybody who's on medications. I just want people to think about what they're doing, and why. Because if you're being told that you have a chemical imbalance and it's genetic and it's passed down from mother to grant, from grandmother to mother to you, or grandfather to father to you, and you just believe it, then of course you're gonna be like oh well, then this pill will help me because it'll help fix that imbalance.
Speaker 2:But to that I say depression isn't passed down. No, trauma is passed down. Yes, yes, and you know grandma was traumatized because of this, this and that, and then didn't have the tools, didn't have the knowledge, didn't have the support. None of those things pass it down to mom.
Speaker 1:Grandma was sad because she stuffed it down.
Speaker 2:Well, and think about this, Think about being raised by a depressed mom, and then what your experience may be like yeah, so it's not necessarily that it's passed down genetically, it's just that that's what you're around. Think about like being raised by a traumatized adult. Right, it's all, it's what. You've never done anything to deal or heal with it. And again I'm I gave a lot of compassion to the older generations because they didn't have the tools, right. But we have better tools, we have the tools and we have the knowledge. They didn't have the knowledge. We have Tik TOK the knowledge.
Speaker 1:We have tiktok, we have podcasts there's us. We have people out there giving different information, and it's the information is out there when you're searching for it. It's not hidden either, like it's right. It's out there, right?
Speaker 2:but going back to like, sometimes people choose, because I've gotten in arguments with people about this, about what about like. Well, it's just, it's just how I am it's just a chemical imbalance yes, and I'm like you think that way, because you're searching for things to validate that right. So that's shown to not be true anymore. But you're not willing to see that because it doesn't go with what you want it to be Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Which that's a whole other thing.
Speaker 1:But so, yeah, there's just a lot of information out there. That's that's kind of proving otherwise, and I think the generational trauma that is something that can be passed down. Coping skills can be learned, but they can also be unlearned, and so that's another thing. I'm giving examples and I have the same things, but I still do. We all do. We have coping skills that we learned and that we picked up and behaviors. But I'm giving this example because it's such an easy one. But my husband would give me the silent treatment when I was upset with him. Oh yeah, and so, because I have abandonment issues, I would like to get that connection back because he was giving me the silent treatment. I would apologize for being upset to get that connection back because he was giving me the silent treatment. I would apologize for being upset and it would fix the connection. I thought Like it wasn't real but it would fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was gonna say it was a false connection, it was a false connection, but I felt connection because I didn't want him to take it away from me. It was almost like a punishment. And it wasn't until the last several years that I watched and I saw where he got it from. And he got it from his mom and his mom would give the silent treatment when she was upset, but wouldn't tell you why, and so that, like that's what he learned, right, it's learned behavior, it's it's like if I'm upset I'm just not going to talk to her. Right's not upset anymore. And until she can talk to me, until she apologizes to me, I'm just not going to talk to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I was like picking up on all these patterns of behavior and being able to pinpoint where they came from in myself too, right, right, and it just kind of like it fucked me up a little bit, because we had to do a lot of work to unlearn that for me to be like, no, you can't give me the silent treatment. You've got to communicate with me If I'm upset. Or if you're upset with me, tell me why, so I can understand it and not do it anymore, or we can have a conversation about it. You know, post drinking, pre-drinking, I'm like I didn't do anything wrong for being mad that you stayed out all night, you know whatever it's hard to unlearn, I think, I think, I think healing is a lot of unlearning.
Speaker 2:I think healing is a lot of unlearning. It's so much unlearning and unbecoming, yeah, and undoing and just being. But I watched a father who got angry and people were scared or intimidated and so I thought that was like power, yeah.
Speaker 1:And use that. Yeah, I can see how people get stuck in that because it does feel anger is very powerful. It feels very powerful, but the way I see it now is very different, because I'm like, actually, you're really sad.
Speaker 2:There's so much grief under there.
Speaker 1:Like you're not angry, You're sad. Let's talk about it. I know, I know. Like what, what? What are you? What are you running from? Yeah, Like what are you hiding?
Speaker 2:We're also. We're also really conditioned to not talk. We're conditioned to not talk, we're conditioned to not feel, and so now I feel like we have more tools than we've ever had. But also mental health is such a big issue. Right now. I see so many teens who are medicated and struggling and and again like we have all of this at our fingertips. So why? Why is this a problem?
Speaker 1:I wonder that sometimes, and I think that, like, maybe my algorithm is different, like I feel like we're so in this space, and sometimes I think, what is common knowledge for us? Someone else has never heard a day in their lives, and so that makes me really sad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, it really does, because it's not the stuff that's being put out there, it's the stuff you kind of have to go digging for, um, or be around people who, who know these things, Um, so, yeah, it's, it's sad the way I see depression now, and I I think I said something to you about this because I sent you a real um on Instagram because I was like I feel this way but I've never talked about it because I don't know why I feel this way. And then I just heard someone else say the same thing about depression and I was like, oh, I'm not the only one who feels that. Okay, what was it? I'll remember it was the Are we man Enough podcast, I think. And he was like asking him to describe depression or like what depression as a man feels like, and the way that he was describing it is the way that I feel about it. I'm like I think it's normal and natural to feel these things.
Speaker 1:And let me go back, because we interviewed our friend Allie, who was talking about after her first mushroom journey. She went into like a depressive episode and was like staying in, and I remember when I first and to someone on the outside, they would look at me and think I was depressed again because I was isolating, I was keeping to myself. From the outside it probably looked very similar, but I was like, no, this is different, though. I'm going into my feels and I'm feeling them because I know it's going to come and go and then I'm going to come out fresh and renewed. So if you don't hear from me, I'm okay. But like if I was depressed, I wouldn't have been. Does that make sense? So it looks similar.
Speaker 2:But I think when you, you like, start doing the work, a lot of things come up, a lot of realizations come up, and they're heavy and there's a lot of grief that comes with it, and so it's okay and you need to feel it and you know you're going to be okay, but they're still heavy.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of where my stance is now. Like I'm like now I don't even know if I would call them depressive episodes, because you know.
Speaker 2:I would call them depressive episodes because you know they'll come and they'll go. But I know now spiritual awakenings?
Speaker 1:no, I don't. I think it's just some things that I need to sit through. Yeah, sit, sit in for a little bit, yeah, and then come out of when I'm done. So to me, I'm not getting stuck in the depression, I'm feeling what I need to feel. It's like a calling to like now we're going to go do some more work, like you did this work over here, but like now, this stuff is coming up and you need to sit with this and you need to understand it and you need to process it and you need to feel it so we can work through it. So, like now, it's almost like an invitation to go in. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I do it because I know I'm going to find my way back out. I think a lot of people don't see it that way and they try to get rid of it.
Speaker 2:That and I think a lot of people like when we say you know, you got to feel to heal, I think a lot of people there it's that's such a foreign concept to them. They're like I don't, I don't even know where to start. I got to go to work, I got my kids, I got this like I got that.
Speaker 1:I don't have time to do that Right.
Speaker 2:So what would you say to somebody who said that or thought that?
Speaker 1:Oh God, that's a hard one, because I feel like, yes, it does take time, but I feel like if you don't do it, like it's going to just keep bleeding on the rest of your life and it's going to keep getting louder and it's going to keep getting harder to ignore. So like, why not set aside time? It doesn't mean you don't have to go to work, it doesn't mean you don't have to live your life, but maybe don't go out on the weekends and drink with your friends. Maybe isolate a little bit, maybe don't. Maybe isolate a little bit, maybe don't. I think when I isolate, I don't hang out with people a lot, and I think that before old me would have never said no to plans and I would have had something going on every weekend, and so now I am okay with sitting at home and working on my shit, so I can be better when I come out of it. I think a lot of people don't know how to say no to those things.
Speaker 2:I have Jomo, the joy of missing out Jomo, jomo. I do not have FOMO, I have Jomo.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, like you're totally fine, I feel like I'm fine with like missing out on things too.
Speaker 2:I used to. I used to want to miss out but then get pressured into doing things.
Speaker 1:So I did where now I'm like actually I'm fine.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:God, that doesn't sound like it's a bad thing. Okay. So we have another screenshot that I wanted to say let me. Let me see if it's like okay, I'm gonna read this first. Okay, because this kind of goes along with what I'm saying. Um, I, I hyper fixate on books that I feel like changed my life.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's bad.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think it's bad, but I I feel like I recommend this book a lot. It's kind of like with the four agreements and the alchemist. I'm like these are the books that changed my life, Like this is one of them, and there is a finished it. Yeah, I'm going through it again and I'm like highlighting.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going through it again and I'm highlighting. Okay, I'm going to literally buy it today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so, so, so good. Yeah, I'd let you borrow it, but I'm kind of a book whore and I'm stingy with it. So this is called the Heroine's Journey A Woman's Quest for Wholeness. And then, part of the Heroine's Journey, we will have someone who talks about this. Um, there's the separation from the feminine, identification with the masculine and gathering of allies. The road of trials, finding the illusionary boon of success, awakening to feelings of spiritual aridity, initiation and descent to the goddess. That's the part I'm about to read. The initiation urgent yearning to reconnect with the feminine, healing the mother-daughter split, healing the wounded masculine, and then the integration of the masculine and the feminine feminine. So there's like steps to this journey. It's not linear. You can be on this step and then this step and then this step, and then, like you, can be on multiple steps at then, this step and then this step, and then, like you can be on multiple steps at once. But the initiation and the descent is what I want to read about. I'm really sorry. Story time.
Speaker 1:Okay, the descent is characterized as a journey to the underworld, the dark night of the soul, the belly of the whale, the meeting of the dark goddess, or simply as depression. It is usually precipitated by a life-changing loss. Experiencing the death of one's child, parent or spouse, with whom one's life and identity has been closely intertwined, may mark the beginning of the journey to the underworld. Women often make their descent when a particular role, such as daughterhood, motherhood, lover or spouse, comes to an end. A life-threatening illness or accident, the loss of self-confidence or livelihood, a geographical move, the inability to finish a degree, a confrontation with the grasp of an addiction or a broken heart can open the space for dismemberment and dissent. The journey to the underworld is filled with confusion and grief, alienation and disillusion, rage and despair. A woman may feel naked and exposed, dry and brittle, or raw and turned inside out. I felt this way while fighting advanced cervical dysplasia, during the dissolution of my marriage and when I lost confidence in myself as an artist. Each time I had to face truths about myself and my world that I wish not to see, and each time I was chastened and cleansed by the fires of transformation. In the underworld, there's no sense of time. Time is endless and you cannot rush your stay. There's no morning, day or night. It is densely dark and unforgiving. This all-pervasive blackness is moist, cold and bone-chilling. There are no easy answers in the underworld and there is no quick way out. Silence pervades when the wailing ceases, one is naked and walks on the bones of the dead To the outside world.
Speaker 1:A woman who has begun her descent is preoccupied, sad and inaccessible. Her tears often have no name, but they are ever present, whether she cries or not. She cannot be comforted. She feels abandoned. She forgets things. She chooses not to see friends. She curls up in a ball on the couch or refuses to come out of her room. She digs in the earth or walks in the woods. The mud and the trees become her companions. She enters a period of voluntary isolation, seen by her family and friends as a loss of her senses.
Speaker 1:Several years ago, in the midst of a lecture on the heroine's journey that I was giving at Cal State, long Beach, a woman in the back of the lecture hall raised her hand and impatiently interrupted me. When I mentioned voluntary isolation, she cried out you've just named what I've been going through the past nine months. Everyone turned their heads to see the woman in her late 40s rise from her chair with dignity. Up until this time I was the owner and chief executive of a large design firm pulling down over $200,000 a year. And one day I went into work and I just didn't know who I was anymore. I looked in the mirror and I didn't recognize the woman looking back at me. I was very disoriented. I left work, went home and never went back again.
Speaker 1:She goes into her story but it's kind of similar, so I'm not going to read all that. She goes into her story but it's kind of similar, so I'm not going to read all that. Um, she had just spoken a truth that every woman who has made the descent knows. Women find their way back to themselves not by moving up and out into the light like men, but by moving down into the depths of the ground of their being. Her metaphor of digging the earth to find her way back to herself expresses a woman's initiation process. The spiritual experience for women is of moving more deeply into yourself rather than out of yourself.
Speaker 1:Many women describe the need to remove themselves from the male realm during this period of voluntary isolation. Okay, I read this and I was like like that's exactly how I feel I have looked at depression recently. Is this is the descent into healing? So and I do it willingly now, like it's not comfortable, but I voluntarily isolate and I work my shit out, and I think you do too.
Speaker 1:Like, where I think we're getting it wrong is so many people try to avoid that they're feeling the initiation, but they're doing everything they can to avoid it because you know what we're told to do. And this is why the episode with Allie kind of reminded me of this Her sister's calling her and telling her like you just got to go, you just got to do, just get out and go somewhere and get out and meet people. And Allie kept saying I just want to be Like I don't want to do, don't want to do. And so so many people try to talk us out of the being and the descending and the figuring it out. Just be happy, just go out and have fun, go spend some time with your friends.
Speaker 1:Like go do this, go out here, go do this, go exercise. And while I believe that exercise and movement helps when it is real, when it is like a depression and a call to like the dark side of your shit, like there's no escaping it, like you can't medicate it away, you can't run from it, you can't avoid it, you can't smoke it away, what you're supposed to do is just be in it, go in, and that's really hard for us as a society and it's not what we've been taught.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was my little added touch, I know and it's funny because, like, I have not read that book, but that's like what I naturally do. Now, that's right, right, like I know it's going to be okay. That's why I know, like coming out on the other end, yes, I'm going to be fine.
Speaker 1:That's why, when I saw that guy talk about what depression meant for him, I was like I have felt that, but I didn't know how to explain it. And then, same reading this him, I was like I have felt that, but I didn't know how to explain it. And then, same reading this book, I was like, oh my God, I do that now. Like when I feel the call to descend, like I just go. I don't want to say willingly, because we know like we know when it's coming and we know it's going to be really hard, but like we don't run from it the way that we used to.
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm gonna read that book and so what I've been doing with tony is we read like I literally read to him and it's it's very healing and it's like so it's like it's collaborative and we're taught like we'll like. Right now we're reading us by terrence real, which I highly, highly, highly recommend for couples, um, but it's like we'll read, he'll be, it's a therapist, um, who works with couples, and he'll be saying, like some of the patients that he has and like what their struggles are, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, it makes me think of this person, or this person or myself, or whatever, and we talk and it's like collaborative, and so this is next on our list.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good one because because the heroine's journey, while this book is like a woman's quest for wholeness, men go through this too. Like just like women go through this too. Like, just like women go through the hero's journey, men also go through the heroine's journey and they also connect with, like, the divine feminine and heal the divine masculine. And you know so, this would be a really good one for you guys. Yeah, yeah, especially as a father of daughters, I know so I love that you guys do that. Sometimes, when we talk about our relationships now on the podcast, like we sound like those cheesy couples and I just need everybody to know that that's not the way we used to be. We've had to like create that.
Speaker 2:No, I trained him right right, I trained him, that is.
Speaker 1:That's my puppy you did a good job, a great job. You did too. I too, I know I created my safe.
Speaker 2:But I think, I think the women started yes and and women start the healing. Yeah, that whole, like I think that's that's our role as women, Like we have the opportunity to start the movement.
Speaker 1:Well, and the thing that I wrote, where it said, like, even though you don't feel like it's fair, like we didn't touch on that, but like, well, let's touch on it. Let's touch on it before you speak to that thing, because when you realize you have to be the one to do the work, even though you were the one who was traumatized and hurt, there is an air of why should I have to do all this? This is really hard. It's not fair. The other people don't have to do anything to mend this. I have to do this. That's not fair. Yeah, and you said the same thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was, I was, was. I was angry that I was like I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do the work, but it just pisses me off that I'm the one that has to fucking do this and they don't have to do this and they don't have to do this and they don't have to do this. Where now that has changed?
Speaker 2:yes, especially after my last journey where it was like experiencing all of the ancestral trauma, where it was like this person was raped, you know feeling the trauma of childbirth, you know, this person grew up with an addict this, this, this, this, this, like so much that got passed down, um, where it was like no, let that go because you get to do this. They didn't have the tools, they didn't have the knowledge. Whatever it was, you do and you were the chosen one to get to change the narrative of this family lineage.
Speaker 1:That is exactly how I feel about it now, because, because you and I and the people we love are doing the work, the people who aren't I feel really bad for yeah, because I'm because and and it's not like a, it's, this isn't fair thing anymore, this is, it's almost like a.
Speaker 1:You could do this too, and I feel really bad that you're not, because you're miserable and you make everyone around you miserable and that's sad, yeah, and it doesn't have to be that way, right? So that whole like this isn't fair thing. Now I see it very different. Now I see it as, like I used to be, like karma doesn't ever come after them, but it doesn't ever come after them.
Speaker 1:Why doesn't karma ever work? And it's like, actually, no, it does. They're suffering, they're suffering, yeah, and I hate that. Right, I hate it. But it's also like but you don't have to, but you don't want to do the work necessary.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's all hard, yeah, it's all hard, right. And so before, when I wasn't doing anything because I didn't know what to do, that was really hard, but it was a, it was a comfortable hard, yeah, because it was what I knew, right, this has also been hard, yeah, feeling things, facing myself, facing these wounds, but it's been worth it because of, like, the peace that has come with it, the like I feel like I know myself, I feel like I've been able to unbecome things that were conditioned in me and I'll take that hard any day over that hard well, it's like that.
Speaker 1:You see that meme that goes around. That's like divorce is hard, staying in a bad marriage it it's hard. Choose your hard.
Speaker 1:And it like gives, like these examples, and it's like choose your hard. So it's like now I know to choose the hard. That's not the same as what I continue to choose, like, yes, they're both hard, but if I choose this, nothing changes in my life. I'm going to choose the hard. That makes things change. Yeah, it's going to be really uncomfortable, but it's different. And if I'm going to choose the same thing, nothing's going to change, right?
Speaker 2:So yeah, and it also like it gives you power. It gives you your power back instead of being powerless to everything around you, like it's like no, like this can change, because I'm going to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's very empowering.
Speaker 2:Okay. So there was a post um from a psychologist and it's about depression and I loved it and so I'm going to share it. So she says depression is a natural response to the loss of emotional intimacy, understanding depression as grief. We live in a hyper independent world that glorifies not needing anyone. In reality, emotional intimacy is one of our greatest needs. We're designed to depend on others and to have others depend on us. Having secure friendships, family relationships and romantic partnerships makes us more physically healthy, confident and resilient. When we lose emotional intimacy friendship or romantic the loss is intense. Our nervous system goes into fight or flight. Depression or a free state in the body is a natural response to a loss of emotional intimacy in the body is a natural response to a loss of emotional intimacy. Connection is so key to our survival that when we lose it, stop eating, have no energy, cannot sleep. The state of grieving is often pathological, path A lot. Why can't I say that word pathologically?
Speaker 1:path a lot, path pathologized pathologized Okay, I didn't know what you're reading Great job as a disorder or something that's abnormal.
Speaker 2:People who seemingly do well we were literally just talking about that after the loss of a relationship tend to be those who are disassociated or who repress their emotions or they move on quickly to escape the discomfort that they feel. Without fulfilling connected relationships with people we can count on, depression will be our natural state. Belonging and bonding are just as important to how we eat and how often we move our bodies. If you're ready to connect with, okay, nevermind. Oh, yeah, that last one. I.
Speaker 1:DM me Right there. Okay, I just had this like visual as you were saying all of that. Okay, because we said this from the beginning like it's like about that having that emotional safety, and I do have that now. I have the safety of my partner who allows me to like feel these things and who isn't gaslighting me into feeling better. But I also think about. There are people that I know who are in a like a state of depression, always Like I've always known them to be that way.
Speaker 1:I don't know them any other way, but they're always going out on the weekends hanging out with their friends, and it's like you need people, you need people, you need your friends. So I'm hearing this and I'm in my head visualizing how this person sees like that. That could be a good thing, but what I'm seeing in my head is these friends being like see, we're having fun, we're not depressed, be happy, you know. And it's like no, that's not the connection we're talking about.
Speaker 2:That's not the friendships we're talking about.
Speaker 1:We're talking about the friend who you can sit down with and talk to them about what you're going through and what you're feeling, and who can like hold space for that without talking you out of it. Like I literally remember having to like train Jason how to hold like to hold space for me, and it was really hard for him. It was really hard because I'd have to be like I don't need you to fix it, I just want to talk about it, I just need you to be here, just be here, you don't need to fix it, you don't need to say anything. And then he'd like start talking. I'm like Nope, well, I think a lot of men do that they're fixers.
Speaker 2:They are fixers and I think they have to allow the woman to have space to just feel Well.
Speaker 1:what did you say about men and women? What did I say? Women are the weather.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, here it is Okay. So women are the weather, women are. It could be sunny, it could be windy, it could be rainy, bitch, that could be a fucking tornado and some hail.
Speaker 1:I don't know, men are the sky and they hold space for whatever is coming up. I love that. I love it too. I love it. Do you make that up? No, oh, I was like so impressed. I read it somewhere on Tik TOK. Yeah, I saw it somewhere. I love it, though, and I had to like, train him to like. That sounds terrible that I'm saying that, but it's true, cause I had to be like I am just going through emotions and I don't need you to do or say or fix anything, just let me go through them. And it's like it was a practice, because he would realize that when he was able to do that, they would come and go Right and then things would be fine, right.
Speaker 2:And I know not all relationships are obviously heterosexual Right.
Speaker 1:But I think it's Masculine and feminine energies. Yes, thank you. Yeah, we all have both. Right, I hold space for his emotions, right, exactly when he's having them. That, too, like that, not feeling like you don't need anybody, that is a very masculine trait, like I don't care if you're female or male. Oh, if you are like I don't need anybody and I don't need to open up to people and I don't need anybody to witness me, like that is a very in your masculine trait.
Speaker 1:So the feminine is the one who is like, opening up to you or allowing herself to be vulnerable, allowing themselves to be vulnerable with somebody, and men have feminine and masculine as well yes so just elaborate yeah, yeah as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, so just want to elaborate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got anything to add? No, we didn't really touch on anxiety. I don't know if we have time.
Speaker 2:Where are?
Speaker 1:we at 119. I mean we could we could? It's going to be a little bit different because I feel like you and we don't have to go deep, deep into it because we've talked about it before. Yeah, like how.
Speaker 2:I'd never thought that I had depression. I always thought it was just anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it was both. You want me to be honest? Yeah, which it's. It's interesting that you went to your OBGYN, because I did the same thing, yeah, and she put me on benzos and I didn't take them for a long time at all, um, and I didn't like them and and, um, I don't even know where I was going with that, but but it was. There was a lot of things in my life where I'm like, oh, I understand why you felt that way, like I understand where you had all of those feelings, because I wasn't connecting with myself, I wasn't doing any work to heal from my traumas. I like there was so much loss of connection, so I always just felt off.
Speaker 1:And so now you look back and you're like that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it's. It's hard when you see people who are in that space. Yeah, Because you're like I will, I promise you, like I was where you were and there is a way out. But it you, you have to go, you have to connect with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't know how to tell you to do that.
Speaker 1:It's a really hard thing to tell somebody it's so hard and it's.
Speaker 2:It's especially like when you are around people and it's they're in this hamster wheel and you're like, do I hold, just hold space for them, do I give, like, do I offer them lifelines. But oftentimes, when they're in that space, they're not. They're not ready to accept the lifeline.
Speaker 1:Those are the. Those are, unfortunately, those are, unfortunately, those are the types of friendships that I've had to let go of. What if?
Speaker 2:they're not friendships.
Speaker 1:You mean what if they're like relationships, or like what if they're like um?
Speaker 2:you know what if they are family?
Speaker 1:It's really hard. It's really really hard. It's hard to sit back and watch someone suffer when you know they don't have to, but they are okay with it. It's difficult.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not even that they're okay with it because they're not okay. They're not okay, right Again, it's what they know and that's their comfort over doing the unknown, uncomfortable thing.
Speaker 1:I have heard people say this is just how I am. I've always lived this way. I'm used to it. I've heard a lot of people say that yeah, and it may. It breaks my heart because I'm like that isn't who you are, though, and there is a better way to live and you don't have to suffer with that. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be like this every day. Yeah, so it it. It's heartbreaking, but I guess kind of went to what you were saying, like when someone's stuck in that hamster wheel and you know there's like all they have to do is step off of it.
Speaker 1:Like it's really frustrating hearing this person talk about how hard the hamster wheel is I know it's very difficult, yeah, but, and but you're right, cause I've I've also been like, but I've been there too, like I understand it, cause I've been there also, I didn't know that I could step off of it, right, and I'm telling you you can. It's like I'm getting this like literal hamster wheel visual.
Speaker 2:I'm too Cause. It's really hard, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you? Did you ever have anxiety? I did, yeah. Yeah, I had post postpartum depression and anxiety, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So anxiety is weird for me now and we we talked about this with Allie too, and in that episode, like I, it's almost like. It's kind of like the same way I feel about depression, like ask yourself why it's there, why it's showing up where it's showing up. Like where in your life does it show up more than than usual? And sometimes it's like, well, I feel it when this person calls me Right, okay, why do you feel that way? I don't know. Well, are you setting boundaries? Does? Is that person right for you? Is that person, is that person highly anxious? And it makes you feel anxious being around that person?
Speaker 1:Um, or is it showing up every time you go to work? Do you hate your job, like you, but you can't leave? Do you hate your job, like you, but you can't leave? You know, I feel like once you can figure out what's causing it, like it makes it a little bit easier to sit in. Um, sometimes those are like unavoidable, like my relationship was causing me a lot of anxiety and I had to make changes and so did he, um, but then there are the little things that give me anxiety, like being in the car with my 16 year old while he's learning to drive. Well, yeah, right, and that's what she was saying. She was like, well, that's there's. There are some things that are just unavoidably going to give you anxiety.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I told you this morning I have really bad anxiety and I don't see anxiety as a bad thing anymore. I used to, um, I know I'm in a situation that's temporary, for the next few days where, um, I'm not in my comfort, so it makes me feel a little anxious. I know it's not forever and it's okay Like I'm, I'm okay with sitting with it sitting in, a little anxious. I know it's not forever and it's okay like I'm, I'm okay with sitting with it sitting in it because you know that in a few days it's going to go away.
Speaker 2:But so, like I never thought I was depressed, I always thought I had just anxiety. And then I did my first mushroom journey and I didn't have anxiety for a while. But oftentimes people were like, oh, so you're, is your your anxiety just gone, it healed it. It healed it and I'm like, uh, no, um, I just know now, when something like I can feel I'm more connected to myself no-transcript where now I don't have panic attacks because I know when the anxiety is starting to creep up and I usually know why. I know it's a person, I know it's a place where I feel uncomfortable, I know it's. You know, being around somebody who's highly anxious, I like, I know the situation and I know when it creeps up. So then I know what to do with, I know the why and then I know like, okay, this is temporary. Or if it's not temporary, what do I need to do? Do?
Speaker 2:I need to remove this friend? Do I need to have boundaries with this person? Do I need to remove myself from this situation? Like what needs to change? So I think that anxiety can be an invitation on like what do I need? Why is it happening and what does my body need in this moment. What do I need?
Speaker 1:Paul Conti says I'm going to find this. It's about anxiety. Sorry, You're good.
Speaker 2:But I think it's your body's way of telling you something is up or off.
Speaker 1:This is what he says. Okay, we all have anxiety. If you think you don't look at where you're manic, anxiety is an invitation to move and initiation. It's our body telling us something needs to change. Look at where and when you are feeling anxious. Is there a theme? Is it with work? Is it with a friend, a partner, your family? So literally exactly the same thing that you were saying, coming from a psychiatrist of 30 years 30 plus years who's written several books. So you're not wrong. These are just the ways.
Speaker 1:The way that we're talking about this is not the way that a lot of people talk about it. They're like well, it's normal to have anxiety, like here's some medication so you don't have it anymore, right, I think it's like your body telling you something when something is off. It's almost like an, a gut feeling and intuition, I think. Put a finger on what it is and then you can like recognize it. So I know that when I'm driving my son like when he's driving and he's got to get his hours in I'm super anxious. I've talked with my husband about it. We're putting him in driving classes because I can't. I'm like I will feel better when he's a more comfortable driver, but right now.
Speaker 1:My anxiety is not good for him in the car Right, because then he's on edge and I need him to be comfortable. But I can't like I am freaked out being in a car with a 16-year-old and I am just now having this realization. The first accident I was ever in was when I was 16, with a friend, with a group of friends oh shit. And it was the first time that I was allowed in a car with somebody else that wasn't my parents and it was an accident, and we were truck flipped on the road, like people under the truck, like all of us had to go to the hospital, like it was fucking.
Speaker 1:I am just now having this realization.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, there's where it's from well, and that's what I'm kind of mean by like, it is your, it's your body's way of looking out for you. We don't remember trauma.
Speaker 1:We relive it oh my god, the fact that I'm like it's of course I'm going to have anxiety. He's 16 and he's learning to drive.
Speaker 2:It's always deeper than what it is. Oh, my God, I am just now remembering this yeah, so that makes so much sense so your body here.
Speaker 1:I'm weird about my kids being in cars with other kids with other people too.
Speaker 1:Like the thought of him getting in the car with another kid, another teenager, like gives me so much anxiety because I was part of a situation where it went poor and it could have gone so much worse and it didn't Right. I've had ex-boyfriends die in car accidents, like so that at 16, 17 years old, so that type of stuff like yeah. So I told Jason, I was like it's not good for him. I don't know how to be stoic in this situation. I don't know how to be calm while he's learning to drive. It needs to be you or we need to put them in classes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But again, like, when people are anxious, they try to suppress it, they try to numb it. I know a lot of people who they feel so much anxiety and so they drink or they smoke because they don't want to feel that anxiety. So many people, it's wild, it's their way of coping. And again, this can be an opportunity to like figure out the why. Yeah, instead of suppressing it, instead of just wanting it to go away, be like okay. Well, when do I feel anxious? Why, why, why? Why keep asking the why?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Didn't? Um? In Dora one time when we were talking about like how to know if you're ready for like a mushroom journey, she was, like, continue to ask yourself why and then allow the mushrooms to assist you in the why. Like, when you can figure, when you can answer the why, allow them to assist you in it.
Speaker 2:Love that.
Speaker 1:This has nothing to do with mushrooms, by the way. I just thought that that was like an interesting take, like I think finding the why is so much bigger than we give it credit for and should really be the question we ask ourselves in any of these mental health situations. I know that the holidays are going to put me in a depressive episode or a spiral. I don't even know if I want to call it that anymore, because I know what the holidays are for me.
Speaker 2:I think grief comes with the holidays for the both of us. We've learned, which is why we have decided we don't record during the holidays because, we're going in, we're going in, we're taking our descent, we do because it is. I think it's time. That's the time to go inward and connect with ourselves so we can show up for our family. So the podcast takes a backseat.
Speaker 1:When you asked earlier what I would recommend for people to do when they have jobs and families and can't do stuff, what I would say now and I'm rethinking this because, as you said, that I'm like do less. You don't have to quit your job, but do less of the other things that take away from going in, which is what we did. We isolate during the holidays. We isolate so hard that we forget that we're friends.
Speaker 2:We do, but you know what? I love, though. What I love, though, is is like there is this mutual respect that we both know that we're both isolating, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's hard as fuck, but we both come out of it.
Speaker 2:But I see a lot of people who struggle with depression or anxiety and I'm like, okay, you have this, you have this you have this on your plate, like take some stuff on your plate, but there's an attachment to it because there's, I think, an unconscious avoidance to go in and to sit with themselves and to just be, because when they are, you know they're um PTA mom, they they're, they have their job. There was just going to help with carpool. They're doing this, doing that, volunteering here or or even just I can't be alone.
Speaker 2:I always have to be with friends. Yeah, there's an avoidance there, yeah, and so I think there has to be some some self-accountability within that, yeah, like if you're on this hamster wheel. That's a really great first place to start is doing less. Do less, say no to more things.
Speaker 1:I have had clients who open up to me about what they're going through, but then they are like the volunteer mom, the PTA mom and they're not willing to give it up, booking this and booking that and doing this and doing that, and there's nothing that they want to let go of.
Speaker 1:Here's something somebody told me a long time ago and I don't know where I heard this or how I heard it, but imagine everything in your life as balls that you're juggling. Some are glass, some are rubber. So your family and you, you're glass balls. Sometimes a career can be a glass ball. Balls Juggle those balls Jiggle it. And sometimes you're going to have to let go of some of those rubber balls so those glass ones don't shatter.
Speaker 2:So like for you and I. We closed our businesses. Um, we lost a lot of friendships. We not that we were ever big drinkers, but, like I, became much more introverted and the people who stayed were the people who stayed, yeah. And so oftentimes we have, we think that we have these deep attachments to things outside of ourselves when we kind of really don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I can understand why people think that they do A hundred percent Well and like. So the mom that I was talking about when I'm like well, but why do you do that? Well, nobody else is going to do it. People did it before you. Right, right, let some other schmuck be the one Like. Like you, take care of you. Yeah, like, just because you're the one they go to doesn't mean you're the only option. That's a lesson. But we are a society that rewards busy. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So like and they people look at her and they're like oh my God, she does it all Wow, but then, like I know, she's not okay with doing it all.
Speaker 2:Well, and they people On the outward because, again, a lot of times when we're not okay, people have no fucking idea, right? So people look at that outwardly and they're like, wow, look at her, she's fucking crushing it. I've said that about you, where I'm like I thought you had the perfect family, everything aesthetically pictures. It looked all like rainbows and butterflies and unicorns, but it wasn't that. No, but we reward that, yeah. So slowing down, saying no, doing less, just being instead of doing, that is an act of rebellion, so it might not feel right. Quote unquote right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's literally what Allie was saying in her episode, her sister being like just do, just do. And I so wanted to step in and be like no, I'm glad you didn't do, I'm glad you were just being you rebel, you Just don't it. That's the episode. Just don't it, just don't it, just don't it. I love that so much, just don't it, just don't it we are anti nike.
Speaker 2:Just do it. No, just don't it just don't it.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna get that on a pair of nikes.
Speaker 2:Just don't I'm tired of doing. Yeah, it's always do yeah right, we're anti.
Speaker 1:Just do it, just don't it. I'm tired of doing.
Speaker 2:It's always do to you Right.
Speaker 1:We're anti. Just do it Just don't it. I want to be, just be, be, be, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that Great way to end.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I feel like we need to say none of this is medical advice. That's with any of our episodes, though, oh God. But I hope that you got this far and maybe are rethinking your thoughts about mental health, just being open to a possibility that it's not what you thought and that there is a way out of it and there is another side, and it's a beautiful side and it's a really hard side, but's super fucking rewarding, um, so, yeah, that's it and the heroine's journey. We'll link it, because this is one of those books that, like I said, I'm rereading it and highlighting because I didn't do it the first time. So dummy, so fucking good, I'm gonna just carry a highlighter with me everywhere I go. You should, um, yeah, be open. Stay curious, we'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 2:And happy Mental Health Awareness Month. Mental Health Awareness.
Speaker 1:Month Happy Mental Health Awareness Month.
Speaker 2:Why did I say that, cut it, cut it.