See You On The Other Side
88 | Why We Don't Drink (A New Perspective on Alcohol)
Is alcohol is the new cigarette? Join us as we explore this provocative analogy through our personal journeys of sobriety. The difference between sober and not drinking. Leah shares an eye-opening article that has helped many reevaluate their drinking habits. She also recounts her own eight-year journey that began with pregnancy and a pursuit of better mental health and clarity. We dive into the often misunderstood societal perceptions of sobriety and discuss why choosing not to drink is frequently seen as an admission of a problem.
From blackout experiences to the pressures of socializing, we unpack the complexities of alcohol use disorder and how it varies across the spectrum as defined by the DSM-5. Our conversation reveals surprising insights about the physical and mental toll of drinking, along with the challenges of navigating alcohol-heavy environments. We also highlight the stark misconceptions about what constitutes a drinking problem, emphasizing that addiction doesn't always manifest in a life falling apart.
As we reflect on the emotional and relational aspects of sobriety, Leah opens up about her marriage's transformation post-sobriety. We discuss the stigmatization of choosing a sober lifestyle and the significance of making mindful choices. Finally, we extend an invitation to our listeners: reconsider your relationship with alcohol and discover the profound personal growth and authenticity that can follow.
Why I Gave Up Drinking: https://relevantmagazine.com/life5/why-i-gave-up-alcohol/
Alcohol Use Disorder: https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder
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Are psychedelics right for you on your healing journey? Book a discovery call to ask us anything.
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Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off
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Use code SYOTOS for 10% off
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1982724/support
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
Is alcohol is the new cigarette? Join us as we explore this provocative analogy through our personal journeys of sobriety. The difference between sober and not drinking. Leah shares an eye-opening article that has helped many reevaluate their drinking habits. She also recounts her own eight-year journey that began with pregnancy and a pursuit of better mental health and clarity. We dive into the often misunderstood societal perceptions of sobriety and discuss why choosing not to drink is frequently seen as an admission of a problem.
From blackout experiences to the pressures of socializing, we unpack the complexities of alcohol use disorder and how it varies across the spectrum as defined by the DSM-5. Our conversation reveals surprising insights about the physical and mental toll of drinking, along with the challenges of navigating alcohol-heavy environments. We also highlight the stark misconceptions about what constitutes a drinking problem, emphasizing that addiction doesn't always manifest in a life falling apart.
As we reflect on the emotional and relational aspects of sobriety, Leah opens up about her marriage's transformation post-sobriety. We discuss the stigmatization of choosing a sober lifestyle and the significance of making mindful choices. Finally, we extend an invitation to our listeners: reconsider your relationship with alcohol and discover the profound personal growth and authenticity that can follow.
Why I Gave Up Drinking: https://relevantmagazine.com/life5/why-i-gave-up-alcohol/
Alcohol Use Disorder: https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/brochures-and-fact-sheets/understanding-alcohol-use-disorder
1:1 Discovery Calls
Are psychedelics right for you on your healing journey? Book a discovery call to ask us anything.
Colors
Use code OTHERSIDE15 for 15% off
Microdosify
Use code SYOTOS for 10% off
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1982724/support
Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast
All right.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah Well, hello, hello, hello to our listeners. Welcome back to another episode of See you on the Other Side, leah, what rabbit hole are we going down today?
Speaker 1:Well, I came across a podcast, and in that podcast she was talking about how she came to the decision to stop drinking. And listening to this podcast, the story was very similar to ours, and I think in that episode she also quoted an article. Read an article, and I found that article and I kind of want to read it. Okay, I think. Before I read it, though, I think we should maybe preface this episode by saying um, you know, this is something that you and I both are, um, we both see eye to eye on when it comes to alcohol consumption.
Speaker 2:And can I also add in there that we saw eye to eye on that even before we started our journey with any psychedelic? A hundred percent so.
Speaker 1:I have been, I would. So I had dinner with someone a couple of weeks ago and she was like can I get a glass of wine in front of you, is that okay? I was like, oh, yeah, that's fine. And she was like oh, you just, you're not sober, you just don't drink. And I was like, fine. And she was like oh, you just, you're not sober, you just don't drink. And I was like, exactly, and I never heard anyone else say that in a way that made like. I was like, oh my God, she understands, right. Most of the time people think that I had a drinking problem. Okay, so that's the other thing.
Speaker 2:Why is it that if you choose not to drink, people automatically assume that the reason why you don't drink is because you have a problem or you're pregnant? It's the one. It's like the one and only drug where, if you don't do it, people assume that there's something wrong with you. It's the weirdest, it's fucking conundrum. It's fucking wild and I think you know. Hopefully we're evolving out of that, but there are it's it's still a thing.
Speaker 1:I was reading this article. Imagine that that was talking about how, like, alcohol is becoming the new nicotine, like the big alcohol industry is becoming the big nicotine industry, where, like, we're learning more and more about it. But this episode is probably it's going to be hard for me for reasons that I explained in a previous episode because I have a hard time talking about this, because I don't like coming across as judgmental and it feels weird talking about it. So I also think we should preface this by saying this is our own lived experience with alcohol. It's a very taboo subject.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of people are triggered by hearing some of the things that we now know about alcohol. Yeah, and there's a.
Speaker 2:I find that interesting that, like that, like if I am choosing not to do it, I'm going to could potentially trigger somebody else and I have to explain why I'm not doing it Right.
Speaker 1:That's a very weird thing to me. So, um, before I read the article, which I know it looks really long, but, um, it's not as long as it seems. Are you going to be able to sit still through this reading?
Speaker 2:of it If I'm upside down kicking my leg, mind your business. No, because it's interesting to me. Okay, okay, I'll be okay.
Speaker 1:I think we should talk about where we stand with it first. Okay, because, as some of our listeners know, my husband is sober three years now and is part of an Alcoholics Anonymous program, was very much dependent on alcohol and for me, I drank, but I stopped drinking when I got pregnant with my last child, so she's seven now. So, like seven and a half eight years ago, I stopped and I nursed her for two years, so didn't drink for two years and then decided just to never do it again. I didn't miss it. There was absolutely nothing about it that made me want to go back to it. I think what it did was it made me really sit back and take a look at why I drank and this is going to sound really fucked up but a reason I drank was because I wanted to spend time with my husband to drink. Oh, shit.
Speaker 1:Um, and then earlier this morning, with you sitting across from me, I was searching for this article, and I was searching for it in my text, because when I find an article I really like, like I'll send it to myself in a text, so I don't have like 500 tabs open. And when I searched for why I don't drink in my texts, a text message thread from 2018 between me and my husband popped up, and you only read one part of it, but I read multiple parts of it, and we were fighting because if we went on a date night and I asked him not to drink, like he would be like ready to go home as soon as dinner was over, like because there was no alcohol involved. Wow, and so that's what we were fighting about. Like I was like you'll stay out till two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning. Sometimes you won't even come home On a date night.
Speaker 1:No, that's what we were fighting about. Oh, okay, okay, I was like saying like you have no problem staying out all night when it's like drinking, or with it if it's with your friends.
Speaker 1:But if you and I go to dinner, you want to be home and in bed at 10 o'clock, like what's wrong with me that you don't want to spend time with me. Why do you prefer to be out drinking? That's what that fight was about. So I think whenever I and at this point my daughter was two when we were like having that argument, I just started to realize, like the less I drank, the more the less he wanted to spend time with me. So I just really started to see things and I didn't like what I saw.
Speaker 1:Um, we would go out. I would be that you know trooper who would go out, and then eventually I stopped going out with him because I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like the way he talked to me in front of people. I didn't like the way he interacted with girls in front of me, cause in my head I'm like, if he's doing this right in front of me, imagine all the things I missed when I was drinking because I wasn't paying attention to this or because when I drank, I blacked out. Um, I was never fully present in the moment. Um, he used to always say, like I liked you better when you were drinking, you were way more fun. And I was like well, I liked you better when you were drinking, you were way more fun.
Speaker 2:And I was like well, that's never going to happen again because, well, from experience, I think you're an incredibly wonderful time, sober. Thank you you too. Yeah, so this is definitely a like this. It's very close to home for you this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think maybe that's why it's to home for you this topic, yeah, and I think maybe that's why it's so hard for me to talk about, because I think I think a lot of people would relate to this but maybe haven't really given up the alcohol because they are like, but that's how we spend time together. So, yeah, the the less I drank, the less and less time I spent with my husband and it really really pushed us very far apart. And he used to say like that's when we started having problems. And I'm like he's not wrong, I think that's when I really started to see the problems.
Speaker 2:And acknowledge the problem. The problems were there. The problems were there before you got sober. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were always there. Yeah, but this is when, like, I just feel like I was more clear headed Um and again for me, like making the decision to quit drinking was not a difficult one. It didn't. I didn't need to go into a program, I didn't need to go to rehab, I didn't need to make a conscious decision every day to wake up and not drink. It was not that's how I know. Like I wasn't as addicted as I thought. And also like I drank maybe once a month. We would go out, we'd get a sitter, we'd go out, I'd go out with him and his friends or whatever. Um, so it was just really easy for me to just be like, yeah, I don't want to ever again. I understand that's not the case for a lot of people, and that was the case with him, which was a struggle bus, because I'd be like why don't you try to go? I can stop drinking whenever I want to. Well then, do it. I don't want to like that.
Speaker 2:That's a very common response, by the way. I've heard a lot. Here's the other thing too. So there are people who, like, go to a, go to rehab, consider themselves an alcoholic, yeah Okay. And then there are people who, who I would consider that they have a drinking problem, but they're functioning, functioning yeah, and they're very like like, oh, this person, yeah, well, they needed to go to rehab. I can still work, I can still do this, my family's fine, Whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1:I don't have a problem.
Speaker 2:I don't have any problems.
Speaker 1:I keep talking, I'm looking for something, but yeah.
Speaker 2:And and a lot of those people. They're functioning, but they very much so have problems. Or the reason why they said that response in the first place is because someone is struggling with their drinking and their partying. And the specific example is that I'm talking about was a child, a teen teen, and the dad decided to go to AA. And the mom was like that loser, he's going to AA, he's, he's going to rehab, he's doing this, he's doing that. But then the daughter was like well, you drink too much, too, ooh. And the mom was like no, I don't. I, you know, I only drink once a month or twice a month, and you know I can still work, I still have this, I still have that and I'm like what about the?
Speaker 1:I can handle my alcohol.
Speaker 2:They can't Right that and I'm like that's interesting because you're saying you don't have a problem. In here, your daughter is saying that she struggles with your relationship with alcohol as well. Right, and you're not willing to see it because, like, you think that alcoholism is this like Living in the gutter Right, can't function without it. Right, drinking and driving, losing everything in your life, and that's not. It can be that Absolutely, but it's. It's not just that.
Speaker 1:So the DSM five actually doesn't call it alcoholism anymore, alcohol use disorder. It's alcohol use disorder and it runs on a spectrum. As with everything else, I think, honestly, spectrums are the best thing ever, because it makes things a lot less black and white and there are areas where you may be high in this area, but low in this area, and so when you look at the entire spectrum of symptoms, you're like, oh, I do fall somewhere in this, right? So that's something that, like, not a lot of people understand. I've sent this alcohol use disorder like checklist to several people before, because I know people who are like I only drink on the weekends, so I don't have a drinking problem. I only drink on the weekends, so I don't have a drinking problem.
Speaker 1:Um one, this one's a tough one. I know someone who starts drinking at five o'clock every day, but they don't think they have a drinking problem because they do it at home, oh love. And so it's like where did we get this idea that you only have a problem with it if you're living in a gutter, can't hold down a job and your family's no longer intact, right? Why is that? The definition of someone who has a drinking problem Right. Has a drinking problem, right? So this, if, if we're being completely honest, it's like a checklist and so there's like mild, moderate and severe, and you're supposed to go through this checklist and answer these questions. Honestly, can I do it? I wasn't planning on doing this.
Speaker 2:But can I do this?
Speaker 1:Because technically, if I went through this checklist while I was drinking, I would have had a mild, mild. What is the word? Severity of alcohol use disorder?
Speaker 2:I would say like in college and young adult life I had issues with alcohol because for me, my dad was an alcoholic. But whenever I would drink, I had the mentality of like I can't just have one. If I'm going to drink, I'm going to get fucked up because otherwise it's a waste of a night. What's the point, right?
Speaker 1:So I drank in high school.
Speaker 2:I drank in college and then I drank a little bit out of college and almost every time I drank I blacked out, which, if you do blackout, that's, that's, that's a, that's a tall tale sign that, um, you have CPTSD if you blackout frequently and easily.
Speaker 1:I blackout almost every time I drink.
Speaker 2:So do I.
Speaker 1:It's. I used to have a friend who thought I was lying until it happened to her one time. Yeah, she was like that happens to you every time and I'm like, yeah, pretty much yeah.
Speaker 2:And I also um threw up about every single time that I drank. I have Asian glow, so a lot of Asian people are missing an enzyme that digests alcohol properly. So I genuinely felt like I was allergic to it. But I would do it because I didn't. Alcohol never resonated with me. But this is where the people pleasing in me comes. I struggle with peer pressure very, very badly and I also want to be fun and have fun, and so there was that pressure to drink and then be a lot of fun and make people laugh, and so there was that. Now I know I make, I can make people laugh and be sober, but yeah, that's to.
Speaker 1:I kind of want to put a pin in that Asian glow thing.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Because there is a very common misconception that addicts and addiction is genetic. Oh, okay, and it's not Okay, but we can put a pin in that, okay, can you? Can you remember that? Yep, I'll remember. All right, thanks Okay, but we can put a pin in that. Okay, can you? Can you remember that? Yep, I'll remember. All right, thanks Okay.
Speaker 1:So these questions that they would ask you to determine whether you have alcohol use disorder, and would you kind of go from there, Like, if you have a mild alcohol use disorder, like you're probably going to be less likely to change because you're like, oh, it's not that bad, you know, but it's still. I think this, really seeing this, made, if anything, me be more intentional. Like why am I drinking? What am I doing this for? Do I like the taste of it? 99% of the time, absolutely not. So why am I going to drink it? Um, am I doing this? As because I want to feel more comfortable around this group of people, because I have social anxiety. Well, why am I around this group of people then? So it just made me more intentional with, like, when and how and why I drink.
Speaker 1:So also wanted to preface all of this by saying, when I say I don't drink, it does not mean that you won't see me having like a glass of wine. Honestly, though, in the past couple of years, even that has been like I don't really see the point. Yeah, so I just. I think I'm just more intentional with it. There used to be a time a couple of years ago, where if I would see a drink on a menu and it was like super fruity and looked good, I would ask if they could make it as a mocktail, or I would get it as is and just sip on it because I liked the taste of it.
Speaker 2:I like, like I love a Bloody Mary. I like a mule. Now I do mocktails because sometimes it is nice to drink something Like if you're going out with your friends right To drink something other than water, or like a soda, right Like, have something that's just like a little fancy glass. But that's where. That's where, like, I feel like it's, it's, it's changing because mocktails are becoming a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a mocktail bar a more normalized thing. And so I'm like boom, there you go. Yeah, yeah, easy, easy peasy. You look like you're one of the rest, which?
Speaker 2:also. That's a whole nother. Thing. I hate that.
Speaker 1:Right, I was just going to say, like I hate feeling like I have to look like I'm drinking, so people leave me the fuck alone. So it's not a thing, right? So, and we'll get into that in a little bit too, because I think it makes other people more uncomfortable than it makes me, right, oh for sure. So all right. So we'll go through these questions and I know we're going to say no to all of these now. But, like, think about old me, old you, old me and any listeners who may want to just take a step back and take a look at your relationship with alcohol and what it means to you. In the past year, have you had times when you ended up drinking more or longer than you intended? Yep, we're answering this like Old us 10 years ago, Okay, yes, more than once wanted to cut down or stop drinking or tried to, but couldn't. Yep, I would say Shit.
Speaker 2:I would say Again, for me it was the peer pressure. Yeah, I didn't like I would have if, if all of my friends would have been like, you know, fuck going out, let's stay in and watch a movie, or whatever, I would have been so down. Or my ex-husband if he would have been down, I would have been like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I'd rather do that Right. I also used to bartend, so like I feel like alcohol was very much a big part of my life and my friend circle too, so if I wanted to hang out with my friends yeah we were drinking.
Speaker 2:I used to bartend too, but it was for a hot five minutes because it was like this. It was in my college town, but it wasn't like where the college kids went. It was where all the old people went, and all of the old men would pressure me to get drunk. So every time I worked I'd be fucking hammered and then someone would have to come pick me up and I'm like I can't, fucking do this.
Speaker 1:See, I worked as a shot girl for a while and we had like fake shots on the back line. So we would walk around selling shots and if somebody was like I'll, I'll buy one, if I can buy you one, I would have like a row of fake shots. Genius learned that the hard way, though, because I have passed out in many dj booths. Um, they actually they put me there because I used to work at the bars. So like everybody knew me, which like thank fucking god, because could you imagine just being like a random stray girl, like passing out and nobody knowing where your friends were, like my friends knew. When they couldn't find me, like oh, we'll just go up to the DJ booth I bet that's where they put her, cause I knew everybody.
Speaker 1:So fucked up Could have turned out so much worse. That's so dangerous, by the way, okay, um, so yeah, more than once wanted to cut down or stop drinking or tried to, but couldn't number three spend a lot of time drinking, being sick from drinking or getting over other after effects hungover also, I would have the worst anxiety and or panic attacks after drinking.
Speaker 1:It's a. I learned this. It is a stimulant and also a depressant, and how it can be both is while you are drinking it. It is a stimulant it like brings you up, you think it is, but then, as your body is removing it from your system, it becomes a depressant and you start going through withdrawals.
Speaker 2:We've talked about this a lot. But when you are sober and someone is drunk and they feel like the hottest person on the planet, they feel so good, they feel sexy.
Speaker 1:They're like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm big and bad and I'm this and that, and then you're the sober one and you're like, oh, but if you could only see from my eyes that was me, and we've talked about this before too how like, oh my God, I used to be such the fun girl but, like, after saying that so many times because I used to think I was like the fun girl, drunk, after saying it so many times and taking a step back, I'm like hold on, my friends would like lose me. Like for my 21st birthday it was a joke they put like a balloon a helium balloon on my wrist and tied it around my wrist so they couldn't lose me. Um, I would pass out all the time, like maybe I thought I was fun, but taking care of me was probably not that fun. Watching that happen was probably embarrassing. Like, if I could go back and look at myself like I was. Like I thought I was fun, right, and maybe I was for a time, a little bit, until it went too far. So, yeah, I I've said that before Like these people on Summer House, the way that they drink and get up the next day and drink again.
Speaker 1:Like how are they not hungover? Number one, number two how are they not looking at these episodes, watching themselves the way that they behave, and like taking a step back. One of them did Right.
Speaker 2:What's crazy is like they're in their 30s and 40s.
Speaker 1:That's why how were you not hung over for a week straight? I don't understand that.
Speaker 2:I, for me it was. It was easy to give it up because my body felt the effects. So it was. I blacked out, I threw up. I would throw up violently the next day. I would throw up during it. I was not. I was never a like puke and rally. I was a I'm throwing up. Right, I'm going to puke all night long until four o'clock in the morning, till I have nothing left in my stomach, and then the next morning I'm going to wake up and I'm going to like, have nothing in me, feel awful, have panic attacks, have anxiety. So for me, like I got after college, I got sick of it very quickly and then it got to a point where I'm like, well, I'm only going to drink like that once or twice a year, but when I do that, I'm going to go hard in the balls in the wall and I'm going to fucking.
Speaker 2:I said that wrong. Balls to the wall. I'm sorry I had to stop because that was wrong okay you got what I was saying we need to work on your, your shit, talk whatever it is.
Speaker 1:I am not good at that, you are terrible.
Speaker 2:I'm so bad at it you are. Anyways, yeah, I would drink once or twice a year and I would always regret it. And then it got to the point where now I may have a drink. There's an Italian restaurant here in Louisville and they have a drink called the Rossini, which is my fiance's last name. I'll drink it. I'll usually have like two or three drinks. It's a little too sugary for me these days and then I'm like that's good, but like I always have to get it whenever I go there.
Speaker 1:But now it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It's to the point where now, if I even finish a drink once in a blue moon, you're like, oh wow, you're really Can't believe I finished that. Right, but that's literally about hard in the paint.
Speaker 1:I said that right though, Didn't I? I want to put that same pin. That I did earlier is part of this conversation the way that you wake up hungover and the way that some people don't.
Speaker 2:And okay, so there there are a lot of people who don't do that. Yeah, so they can keep going. Yeah, right, I like that. I got sick because my body was like bitch, no, bitch, fuck, no, right, stop. So, people who they don't have those physical symptoms.
Speaker 1:That is genetic, that the way that your body processes alcohol is genetic, yeah, I feel more bad for those people, the ones who don't have like the hangovers. Yeah, because they keep, they don't really have a reason to not to stop a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:They keep going and going, they, they, they don't, they don't get sick. They can puke and rally.
Speaker 1:The way they argue it, though, is like Jackson Brittany on um Vanderpump rules the Valley.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, the Valley where I hate that.
Speaker 1:I'm like referencing Bravo now, but like I love it. I feel like some of our listeners will get it the way that Jax is like I drank a whole bottle of tequila and look at her, she's like puking. She can't even handle her liquor. I can handle my liquor and we've said this before but like that is not a flex. Good for you that your genetics make it to where you are not puking after a bottle of tequila. That's great. That can be genetic. It's like when you were talking about the Asian glow that can be genetic. So like the way our body processes alcohol and the way that we react to alcohol is what is genetic well.
Speaker 2:Alcohol got introduced to us much, much later, so our bodies weren't built to be able to handle alcohol are you talking about, like your um ancestors? Yeah, your ancestors your culture yeah, yeah, it didn't. It didn't get introduced to us. So it's like I think, genuinely like our bodies weren't not saying that anyone's bodies are built. No one is built for it right, but do you know what I'm? Do you know what I'm trying to say?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah or when you have built up such a tolerance that you're like I can handle my liquor and you can't. It's like no good for you. That means you drink a lot.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, good for you, right, that's not that's not a flex.
Speaker 1:Um, all right. So yeah, I've spent a lot of time drinking, being sick. Uh, wanted to drink so badly you couldn't think of anything else. That was never me. Never me either. Never me. That was a hundred percent. My husband, like. The reason he wanted to leave these date nights is because all he could think about was leaving and going and getting drunk. He like lived for a Friday so he could go out and drink, like hung over for days, like was a shit human the next day, which was another thing that used to really bother me, because sunday it's like our day off. I used to work saturday, so like sunday is like our one day, that like we have family time. And he was like a lump on the couch and just that would be couldn't do anything very triggering.
Speaker 1:It was I, it was I'm like, do better, right, like your kids want to spend time with you. I want to spend time with you, right, and you're useless right now. Right, yeah, because you partied Friday, partied Saturday and now you're going to be hung over all day today and rinse and repeat yeah, so yeah, wanted to drink so badly you couldn't think of anything else. That was him. Um, found that drinking or being sick from drinking often interfered with taking care of your home or family, oh shit or cause job troubles or school problems.
Speaker 1:See, I never really had that this is where it affected, but it never affected his job because he could do his job in his sleep. So lucky him. Um. So, yeah, it was really hard for him to like come to terms with the fact that he had a drinking problem, because he is a functioning member of society, has a great job, never been fired for drinking on the job. He never drank during the week. He he called himself a weekend warrior.
Speaker 2:That's warrior. That's the other thing that people are like. Well, I don't drink every day. That almost made it harder to convince him, because people have this again, this mindset of what an alcoholic is, and it's someone who drinks and gets drunk every single day.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's what his dad was. His dad was a non-functioning alcoholic who didn't keep a job, whose family did break apart, who had nothing left but alcohol and who drank every morning when he woke up and till the day he died. So that was what he thought an alcoholic was. He was like I'll never be that and I'm like, dude, you were like one divorce away from that.
Speaker 2:But it's interesting too where you see people who had an addict parent and they're like I'm never going to be that and they are not exactly that, but they are a version of that and they don't fucking realize it.
Speaker 1:But they are a version of that and they don't fucking realize it. Or I had a conversation with someone recently whose husband did other stuff. I'll never be an alcoholic like my dad, so now he's doing other drugs.
Speaker 2:That was my ex-husband. His grandfather was an alcoholic, and so his dad became a complete pothead. And then because his dad was a stoner and a pothead. He was like I'm never going to do pot, but I'm going to drink. So I was like it went from grandfather being an alcoholic and the son rebelling and becoming a stoner to then his son rebelling and becoming an alcoholic. You guys are literally repeating the addiction pattern.
Speaker 1:That's why they would be like. That's why addiction runs in my family. It's genetic and I'm like but it's not. You guys are just following in their footsteps because no one taught you how to cope with your feelings. You were picking up bad habits and you're not being taught healthy coping skills. That oh my God, why do we keep doing that? I don't know. We're in sync today in so many ways. You guys, we both went through our luteal phases at the same time and we started at the same time we're blood sisters.
Speaker 1:We're blood sisters now. Basically, that's what. Yep, that's what we are. We spend a little too much time together here's the.
Speaker 2:The other thing, too, I want to add to that yeah, somebody who stops drinking because they use drinking as a way to cope and goes right to an SSRI.
Speaker 1:That's what I was saying in that one episode where I was like afraid to touch it. Yeah, because again you're repeating this pattern of not dealing with your feelings, right? So what you're teaching your children and it's interesting because I'm just going to say this, I'm just going to say it Even though my husband's father was full blown alcoholic, like typical what you would think an alcoholic would be who, like, just didn't live a good life and ended up dying alone, that's what he used to like. I'll never be that. I'll never be that. His mother is on like a very large amount of pharmaceuticals and has been as long as I've known her and I've been in this family for 18 years, so a long time Also, never, never, taught my husband how to have hard conversations, how to be held accountable, how to deal with your shit, how to handle stress, how to cope with feelings. These are all things that my husband didn't learn until he got sober and we worked on those things.
Speaker 2:So I hope we get into that topic more one day. One day we will One day.
Speaker 1:One day, we will One day. So it's funny because she was very judgmental of his father being an alcoholic. But yet you were doing the same thing with different substances. You are running. I remember having really difficult conversations with this person and her leaving the room to go take a pill because it was too hard of a conversation to have and I called her out on it. I was like imagine that can't have a conversation sober. So anyway, we'll get into that one these days, all right. So, um, found that drinking okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah interfered with taking care of your home or family and unfortunately, I feel like that's maybe people's rock bottoms is when it starts affecting their families or jobs. So, like, why are we not taking a look at our relationship with alcohol before that happens? It didn't affect us. So I thought until I got sober I don't even like saying sober because I don't think I don't consider myself sober until I stopped drinking is when it started affecting us. Um, okay, how many do we have? We have three still.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, next question, or next one continue to drink even though it was causing trouble with your family or friends. That was not me, that was my husband, because I would beg him, like and we would get into, like, I would watch him get into fights with friends because they would be like, dude, you're taking things too far. Shut up, you know. And I'm like, oh my God, stop talking. Like. People are getting really uncomfortable right now. Um, given up. Here's the next question in the past year, have you given up or cut back on activities you found important, interesting or pleasurable so you could drink? That was my husband, not me, Okay. Have you in the past year, more than once gotten into situations, while or after drinking that increased your chances of getting hurt, such as driving, swimming, using machinery, walking in a dangerous area or unsafe sexual behavior? Next question have you continued to drink even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious, or adding to another health problem, or after having an alcohol related memory blackout? Wow, this one is wild.
Speaker 1:My husband ran into a friend at the gym a couple of weeks ago who we've known. He was, like, once upon a time lived with my husband. I know this guy. He drinks so much that he has developed gout. Oh yeah, I know what gout is, which is what they call the King's foot, and it's like when you drink alcohol your feet swell up so bad that you cannot physically walk because they hurt so bad.
Speaker 1:Came up to my husband at the gym and was like you know, I think I might like you know. My wife was looking at me the gym and was like you know, I think I might like you know, my wife was looking at me the other day and said have you ever thought that maybe you have a problem with alcohol because you have this health issue and you still continue to drink it? And he was like and it really got me thinking, oh Lord, Like we. I laughed Cause I'm like you've been talking about having gout for like 10 years and instead of removing the thing that's causing it because that's what's blowing my mind, Like you know for a fact the alcohol is causing it. And instead of removing the alcohol, you are going to take medication to help soothe the gout. That blows my mind. And you're still drinking. And you're just now getting to the point where someone had to say it to you and you're questioning it.
Speaker 2:But to that I say how crazy is it that these substances are so normalized? And it's so normalized to be that disconnected from yourself. That's a whole other topic.
Speaker 1:That you didn't you like cause.
Speaker 2:For me, one plus one equals two.
Speaker 1:Right and the fact that you're like, you're just now putting this together and it took your wife saying it to you for you to be like. You know. She said I might have a problem with alcohol and I'm, you know, maybe I do. Yeah, but I also love that Like now. My husband is this like sober guy in this friend group, so when people start to like question it, they always go to him.
Speaker 2:Well, in that friend group and if it's the friend group that I'm thinking, a lot of those men have problems with drinking.
Speaker 1:It's the friend group that I'm thinking a lot of those men have problems with drinking A hundred percent. That's why a lot of them have.
Speaker 2:But they, they shut him out. Shut him out because he's the one with the problem. Yeah, where I'm sad, it's very sad, where I'm like he's the one who's healing from the problem. And you guys have a problem and you guys are completely avoiding it and gaslighting somebody else like you don't have that same problem.
Speaker 1:I never in a million years would have said this about my husband several years ago, but I'm going to say it now. I really think people could learn a lot from him.
Speaker 2:And I'm proud of him, I never would have said that I'm proud of him that he has done this and he's lost so many friendships because people are like he's sober. What do we need? Like, what are we?
Speaker 1:going to do. We can't invite him because he doesn't drink anymore.
Speaker 2:That's. That's fucking sad, I know, and that I know that shows how much those friendships lacked true connection and depth and this is a very, very, very sensitive subject for me. I get that, but you know what?
Speaker 1:I get very angry about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know any of these fuckers. No offense, but like shame on them. Yeah, that's how I get very angry about it. Yeah, I don't know any of these fuckers. No offense, but like shame on them. Yeah, that's how I shame on you.
Speaker 1:Guys are missing out because he's a better person now than he. I can't even, but I think that's Imagine the person that he is now. I couldn't have imagined it years ago and his sponsor's wife told me in the very beginning of him getting sober you'll start to fall in love with them again and that started happening. I was like, oh my God, this is someone like. This person's great, you know like doesn't mean we don't have our fucking moments Like we're a married couple life happens, but I am. I think it's a beautiful thing to get to witness the person I am with today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what a sad thing that they don't get to witness that, like truly, who he is, like he's becoming more authentically himself, and they don't even get to see it and they're not willing to.
Speaker 1:I was going to put a pin in this, but maybe I should just say it now, because that is one of the things that happens when you stop drinking is like people start to feel uncomfortable around you, and I think a lot of it is like either projection or well, if they have a problem, then I have to admit that I have a problem as well, and one of his closest friends I did call out last year. I said you know, I think it's, I think it's really, I think it's bullshit that you consider yourself a best friend and he's been sober at this point for two years now and not once have you reached out to him and asked him about his sobriety. You don't ask him to hang out anymore. You know all these like I'm like he made a Facebook post and gets hundreds of comments congratulating him on his sobriety and not a word from you. It's almost like it's like this you can't say sober in front of Jason. It's really fucked up.
Speaker 1:And he said, well, selfishly, I feel like I lost my drinking friend. Wow, and I was like that's exactly my point. That's really fucked up. That like. I just feel like if I had a friend who had a drinking problem and or maybe I don't know, they had a drinking problem, but I hear they're getting sober. I would be like I'm so proud of you. That's incredibly hard work. How are you doing, do you? Do you want to go get dinner or grab lunch? But like that's the thing, like this group doesn't do that. Everything they do revolves around alcohol, and it makes me incredibly sad because he lost an entire friend group.
Speaker 2:I feel bad for their partners and their children.
Speaker 1:Sorry.
Speaker 2:Anyways yeah.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm like it comes across as judgmental, because I'm like it's sad. Really there's a lot of anger here. I have a lot of anger.
Speaker 2:I, I totally towards his friends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, I totally get that Like I like, why can't you ask You've known this person since middle school and you can't ask him to go to dinner or lunch or get your kids together, like and just hang out without alcohol, like, like it? Just it's wild to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I have lunch with my friends all the time.
Speaker 2:That's very sad and this is a little off topic, but there is this assumption that when we are together, we are fucked up. Yeah, because we share our journeys using psychedelics. Yeah, people think of the way we use these substances. They think of it like it's like alcohol.
Speaker 1:It's like a replacement for alcohol. Well, they're not drinking because they're doing this Right, and that's not it.
Speaker 2:Right. So oftentimes we have gotten comments like we had one video on TikTok that went viral and it was like we're psycho nuts, we do this and you know we would say something Woo, woo, that we do and I can't tell. Like there were so many comments.
Speaker 1:Hundreds.
Speaker 2:Hundreds of comments where people are like, oh, they're tripping right now.
Speaker 1:You can tell they're fucked up.
Speaker 2:You can tell they're fucked up, like oh, they're tripping right now, you can tell they're fucked up.
Speaker 1:You can tell they're fucked up, and some of them were nice because it was just like dude. I want to be tripping with you guys right now, Right.
Speaker 2:We get this comment all the time. Yeah, spoiler alert. Most of the time we are completely stone cold, fucking sober. I've said that.
Speaker 1:We are just weird yeah, I'm like first off, if we were on mushrooms we wouldn't have been recording ourselves doing a fucking real we wouldn't have been on our phone. We wouldn't have been on our phones yeah here's the other thing.
Speaker 1:And when we are on mushrooms, that is what happens like there's no content when we're on mushrooms. That is what happens. Like there's no content when we're on mushrooms, cause like we're like too busy having conversations with each other, being in the present moment, like nobody has, nobody's pulling out their phones, yeah, yeah, and again, it's not like we used to drink and then we did this.
Speaker 2:No they're very, very different. I feel like mushrooms is a way truly for me to connect with myself or the people that I'm around. Hence why dose set setting is so important?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't like to do mushrooms now with people who are drinking. Yeah, I don't. It's not the vibe for me. Yeah, so that's another misconception. Is that like I'll use mushrooms as a social lubricant when everybody else is drinking and it's like, no, I'll actually just remove myself from the situation. It took me a while to get there, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but a lot of times we can go out and we are, we're sober you guys. So there's breaking that misconception.
Speaker 1:But also if you see us dancing at play like mind your business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Not saying that we're sober, I'm just saying that's never happened.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, like it's a bucket list, yeah, if you're out in.
Speaker 2:Louisville, and her eyes are looking a little crazy.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just kidding. But also I'll be honest with you too. Like, if you see us out like I'll be like actually we're sober right now. Honest with you too, like if you see us out like I'll be like actually we're sober right now, and if I have, if I'm not, I'll tell you, yeah, um, okay. All right, sorry, we got a little off topic, but like, this is kind of okay, um, okay.
Speaker 1:So that one was the continue to drink, even though it was making you feel depressed or anxious or adding to another health problem. That was the gout thing. Okay, we have two more. Next, one had too much to drink. More than once. You had to drink much more than what? Oh my God, why am I having a hard time reading? Okay, in the past year, have you had to drink much more than you once did to get the effect you want? Oh shit, or found that your usual number of drinks had much less effect than before? In other words, do you have a tolerance? Yeah, can you drink a bottle of tequila and handle it? If you can, that's not normal.
Speaker 2:I never had a tolerance. I actually always got made fun of because of how little tolerance I had.
Speaker 1:Lightweight, easy date, cheap date, what do they call it? Yeah, not easy date. I was a cheap date. Yeah, like one glass of wine and I'm tipsy. Same, yeah, same. And then the last one have you in the past year, found that when the effects of alcohol were wearing off, you had withdrawal symptoms such as trouble sleeping, shakiness, restlessness, nausea, sweating, a racing heart, dysphoria, mal, malice, feeling low or a seizure, or sense things that were not there, which is like tremors, like you can hallucinate and have like very crazy, like hallucinations, and think people are after you. I had someone one time reach out because they had a boyfriend who was detoxing for three days, hadn't had a drink in three days and was seeing shit. And still, when I brought up the word alcoholic, they were like, well, he's not an alcoholic, though I'm like you told me he was in rehab twice before and it didn't work, and he's gone to aa and it doesn't work, and now he's having tremors and you don't consider that an alcoholic. It's so funny it's not funny but it's.
Speaker 2:It's really, really interesting how that word is such a triggering word for people that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:that's like people who drink that word is like. It's such a trigger we would get into screaming matches because my husband would be like are you calling me an alcoholic? And I'd be like no. But I really think you should maybe take a look at the way you have a relationship with alcohol, Because you can't just say that word. You can't, you absolutely cannot. It's so fucking triggering, it's deep.
Speaker 2:It runs deep yeah In our conditioning.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then he does mushrooms once and goes to an AA meeting and comes home and is like, wow, I have a problem drinking. I'm like, finally, you said it. Yeah, yeah, that was a relief Took some years. Took several fucking years yeah.
Speaker 1:God bless you, you okay so that literally is like an online thing anybody can go to. If you answered yes to two or three, you have mild alcohol use disorder, which I think was us. I had three, yeah, um, if you answered four to five, you had a moderate alcohol use disorder, and if you were six or more, you have a very severe version of alcohol use disorder. And if you were six or more, you have a very severe version of alcohol use disorder and you should probably reevaluate your relationship with alcohol, which honestly everybody should anyway. So there was a another podcast with um. Who's that famous guy who played Spider-Man, tom Holland? Yes, did you listen to that interview with him?
Speaker 1:No, when he talked about how he got sober. He said he started doing dry January and then just kind of kept going from there and then he would get social anxiety, having to like go to these dinners and like want to drink but then realize like wait a minute, I want to drink because I'm socially anxious, because I don't want to be having this dinner, I don't want to be going to this function, I don't want to be doing this. So he said it really made him take a step back and like evaluate why he drank in social situations and whether or not he was okay with that. So then he was just like so then I just started saying no to these things that I didn't want to go to anymore.
Speaker 1:I respect that so hard, same. So, another misconception, and I want to say this before I read this article and I'll give you like final thoughts to whatever you want to say, I feel like I'm sorry, I've talked a lot. No, that's okay. It's big, it's a big topic for me. Um, another misconception, and someone a couple of people, have actually said this to me recently like um, oh, that person always leaves the party early because they are, like, sober, and if they are around people drinking, they want to drink too. So they always leave early. And I think that is a very big misconception.
Speaker 1:And while that might be true for some addicts, it is not true for all, because I can relate to that, because I'm like, I don't consider myself an alcoholic, I don't think I had a drinking problem in the way that some people did, but I have a hard time being around people who drink when I'm sober, and it has nothing to do with me itching for a drink.
Speaker 1:Itching for a drink, right, it's because I have a hard time connecting with people when they're not sober and I am. There is this level of I don't even know how to explain this without sounding wooey, but like there is this energetic level and it feels like this is where it sounds judgy, and I hope people understand that this is like on an energetic level. I feel here, and before they're drinking it feels here and then when they start to drink and the more they drink, it starts to lower the vibration they are slurring their words starts to lower the vibration. They are slurring their words. I'm having to repeat multiple things because they don't understand what I'm saying. They're on another level that I don't want to be on. So I remove myself from the situation, not because I'm wanting to drink and because it's hard for me to be around people drinking, but because I just am not vibing anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I think people lose a lot of awareness with themselves and with other people Like I think about when I drank. I think about the like guys that I talked to. If I were sober I wouldn't have even beer goggles, yeah, entertain them or give them the time of day. Goggles, yeah, entertain them or give them the time of day. Um, I think about so many things that I did when I was drinking it clouds your judgment and your intuition?
Speaker 2:Yes, how unaware I was of like danger, the things that were around me, men, um, I'll, even I'll. I wasn't planning on saying it, but I'll just say it. After a night of drinking I threw up and got really, really sick and I was with a group of people and somebody said that they were going to take me home because they were my friend, who happened to be a guy. And they never took me home, they took me back to their house.
Speaker 1:That type of shit, I think, happens way more often than we want to admit.
Speaker 2:And the next day I felt awful because I didn't want that person to take me home and that person did things to me that I didn't want them to do, and so then the next day I was like that was my fault.
Speaker 1:I was drunk.
Speaker 2:I was drunk. I shouldn't have gotten so drunk. That's why this happened. When now I'm like no, that was rape and like no matter how drunk you are, it's not okay, but like I made the choice then to really think about my relationship with with alcohol.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say this and it sucks, but like I think that happens to a lot of it's happened to me. I think it's incredibly dangerous that it's normal to put ourselves in that situation and for us to be blamed because we drank too much. But it's like. No, this is like literally what happens. Like you put yourself in situations that you wouldn't put yourself in sober 100% and I'm not at fault for what happens and I hate to even say I'm not at fault for how like I was at fault for how much I drank, but what I didn't know was that it greatly affected my perception and my reality and it affected my judgment and my um intuition and I don't want to do anything that is going to dim those things about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know I am somebody who doesn't drink and I take the energy that I give to others very seriously now and I think about, when I did drink, how I would just give my energy to people who weren't deserving of it, your energy budget. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, by the way, I'm sorry, I'm sorry too, and I'm sorry to listeners that that's happened too, because I think it's like the numbers and the statistics of that happening are like way too high and it's unfair.
Speaker 2:So and I don't think that they are accurate, because I think there's people like me and you who never considered it what it was Right and just gaslit ourselves that it was our fault. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am a very big flirt when I drink.
Speaker 2:So am I.
Speaker 1:I used to always say that like I would become like the makeout queen when I was drunk, because I would make out with people on the dance floor and have no idea no idea and it just blows my mind Like I would get to a point where I'm like I can't be out without my husband because I might accidentally go home with someone Cause I black out and you know if, if he's there with me, at least I know he's taking me home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, For me. I think that a lot of my daddy issues came out when I drank oh, oh, oh shit ha, ha, yay me oh, so one I would do things to make my friends laugh yeah, and I would literally bring up my dad, oh God, so they would like be cringing but also be like just dying laughing. It was like I use that as like your protective shield. Yeah, oh my God. And then also like the biggest dick at the bar who was like the nothing to do with you, yeah.
Speaker 2:Who wanted nothing to do with me or who I knew was going to be mean to me. That's who I liked.
Speaker 1:Damn. I think that probably happens to a lot of people. Like, when you're drinking, your issues come out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would probably. I would definitely agree with that. The pin that we put in about the genetics, like we didn't get to like completely finish that. But I just implore people to look up the difference between genetics and epigenetics they also. I'm going to talk about Dr Carl Hart for a second. He's the author of um drug use for grownups. Um, or maybe it's drugs for grownups. Don't remember the full name, but it's in our Amazon link.
Speaker 1:Yes, he is a researcher. Um has been working for I think he worked for Stanford for a very long time, has done all these trials with drugs and one of them was this rat experiment with cocaine, because they talk about how highly addictive cocaine is. So he put these rats in a cage and would see how quickly they became addicted to it. And they did like almost immediately. Like would go to the cocaine before they went to the water or the food or whatever it was that they would put in there to like, give them to choose from. And then he decided to do this experiment where he puts the rats in cages with each other instead of singling them out and putting them in cages by themselves. So he put them in cages with other rats. He mimicked their natural habitat, their natural environment, put things in there like you know, plants, and they were in there with their little families, their little rat families. They never touched the cocaine.
Speaker 1:So he argues and I would probably say I am of this belief too that it is not genetic but it is environmental. Up in and in the environment that you choose to be in as an adult is going to be what probably pushes you to reach for a substance. So if you're in a healthy environment, you are less likely to reach for that substance Wow, no matter how addictive it is. So I would argue that, like it's environment over genetics I wouldn't even argue that it is it's environmental over genetics. And then epigenetics is a little bit different, because that's what we were talking about earlier, Like Asian glow. That's a thing. That's a real thing. You're going to be less likely to drink because of the way that it affects your body, so like because of your genetic makeup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get red and flush. My skin gets super inflamed.
Speaker 1:Or if you have this, the epigenetics, where you can handle your liquor and you don't get a hangover, you're probably more than likely going to develop a dependency on this substance. So it's just go down that rabbit hole. Okay, anything else you want to add? No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I want to listen to this article, okay.
Speaker 1:So this particular episode, the podcast I was listening to, said that this is what changed her complete, total outlook on why she drank, and I was in tears when she was reading it. And I should also preface this by saying like there is the word, there is the mention of like God in this article, but like, I think where I am, I can look past that word and take it and understand it for what I believe God is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I believe in God, but I think God is the universe. I mean I I believe in God, but I think God is the universe.
Speaker 1:Same so and I used to like get really triggered when I heard the word God in an article and be like, oh, this is, this is Christian propaganda. Now I it doesn't trigger me as much because I'm like I'm going to replace that God with my God, my universe, my spirits, whatever. All right, so take the god out of these words, all right, you ready? Yeah, story time. Let me get my talking voice. We'll close with it's your sex voice.
Speaker 1:I also want to link this article for anybody who, like, wants to read it and maybe like send it to somebody oh, great idea okay, the first I drank alcohol.
Speaker 1:I was about 14 years old. I lied to my parents and went to a party at a friend's house where we drank cheap red wine and those sickly sweet wine coolers with all of the cool kids. I didn't like it much, but I kept at it. After all, it was worth the effort. Look at how I was fitting in. I was already smoking a pack a day. What was a bit of booze? And a year later I had more regrets than any 15 year old should have at 17. I decided to follow God for my own self. I quit drinking as part of the deal and didn't touch the stuff for 10 years. Am I missing a page? I'm missing a page. Shit Hold that. Thought we're going to edit this part out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what happens?
Speaker 1:okay, start over okay, how's my hair? Good, okay. So I'm gonna read this article. I have part of it printed out. For some reason it didn't all print out, so I'm gonna start reading from my phone. I'll link it in the bio so people can read this themselves. Print it out, send it to a friend, whatever get your tissues, fuck all right.
Speaker 1:One of my most vivid childhood memories is of my mother and father standing at our kitchen sink in winnipeg surrounded by the last empty bottles, big smiles on their faces as my mother poured each one out. The bottles made that glug-glug noise when the pouring is too fast for the wide opening. We made an occasion out of that moment as a family. It was a celebration, a milestone one that my sister and I didn't quite understand, but we felt relief in our home. My parents had a complicated relationship with alcohol, not exactly personally, although there was some of that, but within their larger story of family and friends. When they converted to Christianity in their 30s, they were under no illusions and they were desperate to make everything new. They poured out all of the alcohol in the house in a grand renunciation of the old ways, the old bondages, the old addictions, the old possibilities. They wanted something new and different and better. They were new people, a new creation. A new story was going to be written about their family.
Speaker 1:In the old, hard drinking days of business, my father never veered from his Diet Coke once. Their relationships with some family members became tense because no one remembered how to hang out without a beer. They tried not to judge others, but they knew what they knew. To them, this wasn't even a choice to stop drinking, it was simply who they were now. They untethered drinking from their identity and never looked back. It's been about 30 years since that decision. Now A lot of their friends and family have joined them in their temperance.
Speaker 1:So I never saw an adult drunk in my childhood. To my memory, I never witnessed an excess of alcohol. I grew up in a sober home where adults having fun was never linked to clinking ice cubes or lipstick stains on a wine glass. My parents were young. They were filled with life and joy and hope. Who needed alcohol? Now, switching to my paper. The first time I drank alcohol I was about 14 years old. I lied to my parents and went to a party at a friend's house where we drank cheap red wine and those sickly sweet wine coolers with all of the cool kids. I remember those.
Speaker 1:I do too. I didn't like it much, but I kept at it. After all, it was worth the effort. Look at how I was fitting in now. I was already smoking a pack a day, what was a bit of booze, and a year later I had more regrets than any 15-year-old should have. At 17, I decided to follow God for my own self. I quit drinking as a part of the deal and didn't touch the stuff for 10 years. I decided I wanted to have wine with dinner. Like civilized grownups, I wanted the lovely glass of red beside me as I read books. I wanted to know about the world of wine, tastes, bouquets, tannins, regions, all of it.
Speaker 1:Brian began to enjoy craft beer. He would buy a six pack of beer and it would last for six months. I would buy a bottle of red and it would last for a week. We sipped wine occasionally and turned the radio to NPR. For 10 years we drank alcohol in this way occasionally, barely and with interest. We liked to learn about it. We liked the world of craft beer and wine, but slowly I began to drink more than my husband. His rare growler of beer still lasts. But my bottle of wine on the sideboard began to disappear a bit sooner and then the bottle became a bigger bottle of cheaper variety, and then the big bottles became a box of wine and I kept it on the kitchen cupboard.
Speaker 1:My parents grew accustomed to my drinking, even accepting I never drank in front of them out of respect for their journey. They listened to my reasonings about social drinking and moderation and our freedom in Christ. I grew to love the imagery of wine in scripture, to see it as an emblem of the new city and of heavenly banquets. I liked the sophistication of wine, the theology of wine, the metaphor of wine, the community around wine at the table. I like the celebration of champagne, the warmth of a cabernet, the summer light of chardonnay. Without noticing, I was drinking almost every night. Now it didn't bother me in the least. I've learned that when you are walking with Jesus, the Holy Spirit is always up to something and when it comes to conviction, I have found the Spirit to be gentle but relentless.
Speaker 1:Change and transformation is an ongoing process. I'm always grateful how the Spirit isn't harsh or overwhelming, but rather how, at the right time and in the right moment, we know it's time to change. We begin to sense that this thing that used to be okay is no longer okay. The thing that used to mean freedom has become bondage. I'm already going to start crying. The thing that used to signal joy has become a possibility of sorrow. The thing that used to mean nothing has become something, perhaps everything, or at least that's what happened to me.
Speaker 1:It was fine, everything was fine, and then I knew it wasn't going to be fine for much longer, because a year ago I knew that God wanted me to stop drinking, and I fought it with my reason. Oh, I had all the excuses for why I could keep enjoying my wine in the evenings. I work hard, I give so much. I'm not an alcoholic, I'm never hungover, it doesn't affect my life, it's social, it's fun. It's in the Bible, for pity's sake, but still I sensed that the Spirit, the infinite patience and rueful love waiting for me to trust the invitation.
Speaker 1:As I defiantly poured another glass of wine, I began to be haunted by the writer of Hebrews who said let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up, and let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. I began to wonder why I was resisting throwing off the weight of alcohol, why I was so determined to keep running my race with this habit that had begun to feel so heavy In my soul. I could see the Holy Spirit practically jogging alongside of me to say every now and then aren't you ready to put that heavy weight down? Yet I think it's time you stopped this one. It's your time to put it down. It looks to me like it's getting heavier the longer you hold on. No, no, I'm fine, I'll just keep going like this. Everyone else does, it's fine, we're all fine. I'm fine. Look at how fine we are.
Speaker 2:I have to take breaks. I'll take a break, okay.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'll just sit at the side of the road for a while to catch my breath. In my life, when it comes to the dawning of change, it can feel as if God presses a thumb down on something in my life, as if to say here, this spot, this one, let's stay here for a while. I want to lean on this. It has happened about other habits or dependencies or sins or stumbles in my life as I've followed Jesus. I'm always glad for it. This has been the source of a lot stumbles in my life as I've followed Jesus. I'm always glad for it. This has been the source of a lot of transformation in my life. Something that was okay suddenly becomes not okay, and inside of that there is an invitation to more shalom, more peace, more hope, more love, more trust, more wholeness. It's never about deprivation. It's about becoming who we are meant to be all along. In the old days they used to call this holiness or sanctification Both words we don't hear much because they lost some meaning by their misuse. Perhaps I do know this sort of transformation, whatever we want to call it, hardly ever happens all at once. It's a slow burn and it refines and clarifies and distills we grow into our new choices. I remember when I felt that thumb pressed down on my cynicism, for instance. I'd become so dependent on my cynicism, on my know-it-all tendencies, on my yeah, but when it came to everything that I was missing so much of life and goodness and hope and possibility, I felt that challenge from the Holy Spirit for a year before I began in earnest to lean into the healing, into the renewal of hope again in my life and that was one of the hardest and best things God has ever done to me. The pressing of God's thumb has felt like the hand of a massage therapist to someone with knots in their back. Here is the knot, the pressure point, the source of the pain. Knots in their back. Here is the knot, the pressure point, the source of the pain, and the pressing perhaps feels like more pain, until it suddenly releases an exhale and movement. Does that make sense? Okay, yes, god's thumb had come down on my drinking and I was wriggling under the weight, resisting and bargaining and excusing.
Speaker 1:Conviction often begins with noticing. I began to see how alcohol-centric our culture has become, to see how much of our version of fun revolves around wine or beer or some form of alcohol. To see how unhealthy our dependence is to see the industry around it capitalizing and marketing and selling and manipulating and exploiting. I began to see what those no fun, no, no fun teetotalers what is that? Teetotalers a hundred years ago had seen, I guess, when they like during the prohibition. I think that's what she's talking about.
Speaker 1:How the victims of alcohol were almost always the ones who were most vulnerable. How it impoverished families and lives, how it threw a lit match into powder kegs of longings. I began to see how unhealthy it made me feel in mind and body. I began to read news stories I had somehow missed about how alcohol was linked to so much physical toll in our bodies. I began to see women of my generation becoming increasingly dependent, as wine was marketed to women as the rest or the treat they deserve for their exhaustion and their diligence and their selflessness. I began to see news stories everywhere about the rise of women drinking. I began to read memoirs everywhere about the rise of women drinking. I began to read memoirs and stories and articles from women who had become caught in drinking too much and about how they felt addicted and dependent and entangled almost before they knew it. I also began to notice how the church had begun to embrace drinking as well, others of my generation who had also grown up in legalism regarding or abstention, abstentation from alcohol perhaps. And so we're exploring their emancipation with micro brews and homemade wine over thick theology books and Bible studies and hymns things.
Speaker 1:Then I began to wonder about stumbling blocks and I couldn't seem to shake off early church admin admonitions to consider one another, to give preference to one another's weaknesses. Were we setting someone else up? Were we judging the ones who abstain as legalists? I remembered Brennan Manning, the man who had translated the love of God in a way that I could receive it more than probably any other writer was addicted to alcohol, and I re-read up one of his last books before he died All is Grace, a ragamuffin memoir, where he vulnerably writes about his battle, what his battle has cost him, even as he experienced the unending and unconditional love of God in the midst of it, how he experienced regret and pain and loss alongside of the love and tenderness of God in his dependency. And I thought about the ragamuffin for many, many days.
Speaker 1:I began to notice my friends who were in recovery. I began to notice how hard it is to be in recovery, to be an abstainer in a world of drinking, and how it was somehow just as hard to be an abstainer in the church as it was outside of the church. I stopped posting pictures of wine on my Instagram. I began to wonder if I was thinking of myself and my own freedom more than I was considering others. I began to notice how one glass of wine almost always means two or three. I began to realize I was not a special snowflake, somehow immune to addiction and dependence. I began to see what was not a special snowflake, somehow immune to addiction and dependence. I began to see what my parents had always seen, because I began to see it in myself. And still, the Holy Spirit sat with me, waiting for me to trust this invitation Not to moderation, not to legalism, not to counting drinks or accountability or reasonableness.
Speaker 1:No, I was under no illusions that this would be a full scale. I was under no illusions. This would be a full scale surrender, laying down my preferences and rights to embrace what just might be something better. I thought it would be hard. I thought it would be awful. I thought I would have no more fun. I thought it would be boring. I thought I would miss the way alcohol softened and blurred the hard edges of life. I thought I was giving up so much. I thought I'd be an outsider now. I thought I'd be the odd person out in get-togethers. I thought I wouldn't fit in anymore. I thought I'd be perceived as a legalist. I thought I'd be judged for my own convictions. I thought I would miss it too much.
Speaker 1:So I quit drinking Quietly, without a lot of fanfare. It's been a while now. I simply stopped one day and I haven't had anything to drink since that day. The surprising thing to me is this it's been good. I haven't missed it. I haven't felt like an outsider. I haven't felt longings to drink. In fact, I have noticed that my not drinking has given other people permission to stop too. I wonder if my experience here is a grace that was given to me once.
Speaker 1:Once I stepped out in trust, once I said yes to the invitation from God, I was met with goodness. I was prepared for struggle to quit. I wasn't prepared for how good I would feel in my body, in my mind, in my soul. It felt exactly like setting down a weight. I was surprised at how wide and spacious I began to feel in my soul. I would think do I want wine tonight, and always I would respond to myself no, I'm a non-drinker.
Speaker 1:Drinking isn't who I am anymore. I stopped asking myself if I wanted to drink. I always didn't. I don't know where that thought came from. I have my suspicions that that was prompted by the Holy Spirit. Let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up, and let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. I began to move freely. Then I felt like I was flying.
Speaker 1:My older children asked me about it and eventually they said Mom, you don't buy wine anymore, do you? I said no, I don't. They both smiled and one of them said good, I'm glad. I don't think it's good for you, I'm glad you're like Granny and Papa now. I said me too. I didn't know that my children were paying much attention to me pour that glass of wine every night, but they were watching, aren't they always? So much of what we teach our children is caught rather than taught.
Speaker 1:I still don't think drinking is sin across the board. No, it's a deeply personal choice. Not all sin is clear cut. It's often deeply tied to our motives and our hidden choices. I have zero judgment on anyone else's choices. Conviction isn't one size fits all. After all, I was fine with drinking for a really long time until all of a sudden I wasn't anymore. For some people a drink is just a drink and that's okay. But there are a lot of people who know that a drink can be dependence and distrust and damage and danger. I don't presume to make decisions for anyone else. I am wary of taking on the role of Holy Spirit in someone else's life. But if it feels like a weight, imagine how free you'll be when you lay it down. If you're sensing the invitation, it's not an invitation to deprivation but an invitation to abundance.
Speaker 1:I think that conviction has gotten a bit of a bad rap in the church over the past little while it's understandable we have an overcorrection to a lot of the legalism and boundary marker Christianity that damaged so many the behavior modification and rulemaking and imposition of other people's convictions onto our own souls. But in our steering away from legalism, I wonder if we left the road to holiness or begun to forget that God also cares about what we do and how we do it, and why. Conviction is less about condemnation than it is about invitation. It's an invitation into freedom. It's an invitation into wholeness. Perhaps our choices towards those invitations from God are really an intersection for our agency or free will and the Holy Spirit's activity. Maybe that's where the transformation begins. I quit drinking because I felt like God asked me to quit drinking. I've never regretted saying yes to God On a Saturday morning I poured the last of my wine in the house, down the sink.
Speaker 1:I was alone, no audience for me. I thought of my mother and father and their brand new believer, zell, how all of those years earlier I had witnessed the same moment in their lives. Perhaps I was always headed towards the same emancipation. I'm a bit older than they were on that day in Winnipeg when they poured out the booze. Then I pour out my fancy wine glass. Then I put our fancy wine glasses away and liked how open and clean everything looked. Now I put the kettle on for a piece of tea, for a cup of tea. Why did I say a piece of tea? Um, okay, there's a little bit more. So.
Speaker 1:This piece originally appeared on sarahbessiecom. I can link it below. It was republished with permission. After it was originally posted, sarah shared this update and this is what I want to share.
Speaker 1:This essay was about my personal experience of journeying with God and about how things that are not sinful per se can become a weight to us. It was about drinking, but it was also about discipleship. It was not an essay about dealing with alcoholism. I'm not an alcoholic and I was never an alcoholic. That is why I could quit drinking with such little fanfare or suffering or process or support. For me it was simply a matter of quality decision. But for the people who are addicts or in the grips of the disease of alcoholism, or people who have become dependent, you need to know that my story here is not prescriptive, nor is it normative. Most people who are struggling with drinking need help, and that is a good thing, and I am a big, big, big fan of you getting the help that you need. In one of my books I wrote this Miracles sometimes look like a kapow, lightning strike, revelation, and sometimes miracles look like showing up for your counseling appointments.
Speaker 1:Sometimes miracles look like medication and patience and discipline. Your story of quitting drinking may look like getting yourself to Alcoholics Anonymous every single time the doors are open. It will look like showing up. It may look like counseling. It may look like a long road of reconciliation and forgiveness. It may look like creating a plan for success. It may look like a support network and accountability, and that is good and holy.
Speaker 1:It would deeply grieve me for anyone to read my essay and think well shit, she quit drinking in one decision, so why can't I? It is not the same thing. You are taking on a burden that isn't yours to bear. There's a big difference between sin and addiction, but you don't need to take on any shame or condemnation for either one. If it's a sin, sure, like me, you can, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, pull the root out, and if it's addiction, you might be set free instantly, and I pray for that. But it is just as amazing and just as miraculous for you to put your hand up for help and to surrender to the daily work of sobriety.
Speaker 1:In my mind, people who ask for help are heroes. So I implore you if you are feeling that alcohol has a hold on you, if you feel dependent, if you know you are addicted, if you are losing yourself, if you're paying the price already, if you are tired and hungover and miserable and longing for freedom, please get help. Put your hand up. Tell someone we need you. I promise your life is worth saving and we'll be cheering you on. I love that. So I think that last part was really for, like, people who struggle with alcohol use disorder, but the first part of that was for people like us. Yeah, did you almost fall asleep?
Speaker 2:no, no, not at all. I was just you and you and you're crying. I know I can't help, but I know it hits close to home and I totally get it home and I totally get it. But but I think a lot of us can relate to that either part, yeah, so that's kind of, I think I think that was a good way to end it.
Speaker 1:Intention, with a lot of things matters, and I think that if you're going to question anything like, the first question you should be asking yourself is why am I doing this? That's, I think, with everything, yeah, yeah. Why am I reaching for this glass of wine? Why am I taking the shot? Why am I doing these mushrooms tonight? Because, I will admit, in the beginning of my journey I did choose to do mushrooms instead of drink with groups of people, and now I just choose not to be around those groups of people. So intention matters, y'all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's all I got. That's all I got. And on that note stay curious, be open. We'll see you guys on the other side. Bye, that was good.