Countdown to After America: The Heart of US Extremism with Jason van Tatenhove

As we count down to the release of the limited series After America, we are revisiting some past episodes of Deep Dive to help lay the groundwork for this important project that will attempt to answer the question - What would it actually look like if American democracy were to fail?

Dark Tales: Music by Rahul Bhardwaj from Pixabay

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In this episode - originally released June 24, 2022 - I have a conversation with Jason van Tatenhove, who reflects on his time working with the Oath Keepers, recounting the history of the group, spanning from the Bundy Ranch standoff to the January 6th insurrection. As the narrative weaves through the volatile alliances and ideological clashes within groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer, we take a hard look at how the allure of anarchy and the manipulation of political narratives can reshape our societal landscape. This episode peers behind the curtain of emotional appeals in politics and exposes the delicate dance of ideology and ambition that fuels these extremist factions.

In a world riven by division, we consider if the art of storytelling might hold the key to bridging our deepest chasms - and if there is enough time to do that before American democracy fails.

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Transcript

Shawn: 0:19

Thank you, platform. How many times have you heard recently that American democracy is in danger, that the United States is on the brink of a precipice? Since the 2016 election and the destabilizing, horrifying events of January 6, 2021, it's become clear that the very foundations of American democracy are under threat. The future of the United States, were our democracy to fail, draws comparisons to Nazi Germany, but this is often dismissed as hysteria, and probably rightly so. But ignoring these signs could lead us into dangerous territory. So that begs the question what would democratic erosion look like in today's United States? And that's the question After America aims to answer. Question After America aims to answer. So we've assembled a team of experts, people like Kate Starbird, who studies social media misinformation, Jason Van Tatenhove, who has first-hand experience with militia groups in the United States, Stephen m, who's written about the potential for another civil war, Monika Nalepa, who studies how democracies transition into and out of authoritarianism, David Gushee, ex-evangelical, who writes about the threat of Christian nationalism to democracy, Benjamin Carter Hett, who researches and writes about the rise of Nazi Germany, Edward Watts, who examines the fall of Rome, and many more. They're all going to help us explore and understand how we got here, to January 6th, to the reconstitution of the facts surrounding that event, making heroes and martyrs of the insurrectionists, why nearly half the country supports a return to office for the man responsible for that coup attempt, Donald Trump. What the future might hold were he to win and implement the policies he professes to support, and how, if at all, we can prevent a slide into authoritarianism.

Shawn: 2:03

Join us for this groundbreaking series launching in late June and in the meantime, in the run-up to the release of After America, we'll be revisiting past episodes of Deep Dive each Sunday between now and then that lay the groundwork for the vital conversations to come. Today we're re-releasing my interview with Jason Van Tatenhove, a former insider with the Oath Keepers militia, who testified before the January 6th committee. And a side note a funny thing about going back and listening to some of the earlier episodes of Deep Dive is realizing how far we've come with our audio and other elements of the show. I've tried to clean up some of this with the tools we now have, but there's still a rawness to it and maybe that's appropriate to the content. Democracy is at a crossroads. The time to act is now. Keep checking back to Deep Dive on your favorite podcast platform and don't forget to follow and like us for more updates about After America.

Jason: 2:57

Their version of freedom is, you know, great for them. If you're a white Christian, you know, far-right fundamentalist it works out real good. But if you're a white Christian, you know, far-right fundamentalist it works out real good. But if you deviate from that, you know. If you're a woman who believes in reproductive rights or you're a trans woman or you know part of the queer community, that looks radically different living in that world role.

Shawn: 3:25

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, s Fettig. I'm a political scientist and I'm interested in trust how our governments and politicians can gain our trust and how they lose it, but also how our personal stories can build trust and bind us together. So this space is dedicated to diving deeper into issues that are interesting, at least to me and hopefully to you, and that maybe we aren't always sure how to talk about. Today's episode is the second of a two-parter focusing on political violence and extremism in America. Last week, I spoke to Dr James Hodden of Virginia Tech about the impact of extremism on our political institutions and the ability of those institutions to withstand such sustained attack, not just from fringe extremist groups, but also from fringe elements within the actual political and governing system. Today I'm talking to Jason Van Tatenhove, a former employee and self-described propagandist of the Oath Keepers, a right-wing militia organization, about their history, their objectives and what we can expect next from these types of organizations. He has been a critical voice about organizations like the Oath Keepers in recent years and has participated in numerous documentaries, including Hulu's homegrown standoff to rebellion, and in March of this year, jason testified before the US House Select Committee investigating the January 6th insurrection, which included some members of the Oath Keepers. First, though some context here might help to follow the conversation, jason references the Bundy standoff as his first real substantive work with the Oath Keepers when he drove to the Nevada ranch with the Oath Keepers. When he drove to the Nevada ranch with the Oath Keepers founder and leader, stuart Rhodes.

Shawn: 5:09

What I'm about to tell you is a simplified, digestible summary of events, but please recognize there is a bit more nuance and complexity to the story. So, in a nutshell, the Bunkerville standoff occurred in 2014 after the Bundy family, primarily represented by rancher Cliven Bundy and his sons Ammon and Ryan, refused to remove their cattle from grazing on federal land in Nevada after the Bureau of Land Management, or BLM, established a protected space for an endangered desert tortoise. The Bundys argued that the states had sovereignty over land within their border and that, in fact, the Bundys were sovereign citizens themselves, claiming that the federal had sovereignty over land within their border and that, in fact, the Bundys were sovereign citizens themselves, claiming that the federal government thus had no legal jurisdiction over the state land or the Bundys. On October 8, 2013, the United States District Court for the District of Nevada ruled in United States v Bundy that the Bundys were trespassing on federal land and that they must remove their cattle within 45 days or the Bureau of Land Management could impound the cattle. In early April of 2014, with the cattle still grazing on the land, the Bureau of Land Management began impounding the Bundy cattle. This led to what has become known as the Battle of Bunkerville, in which BLM agents faced off against armed protesters, including the Bundy family and private citizens and members of militia groups that had come from other parts of the country. After a tense standoff, the BLM agreed to suspend the roundup of cattle but did not release the cattle they had already impounded. The Bundys continued to illegally graze their cattle on federal land. Ammon Bundy, cliven's son, has gone on to participate in numerous other standoffs and occupations, including at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon in 2016. He's currently running for governor in Idaho.

Shawn: 7:05

Jason, welcome Thanks for chatting with me.

Shawn: 7:07

Sure, let's lay some historical context. Who are the Oath Keepers? What is the Oath Keepers? And then, within that context, how did you become associated with them? What's the history there?

Jason: 7:22

Sure, so the Oath Keepers and you have to understand they've kind of evolved over time. So the Oath Keepers is known as an American extremist militia group. That is, you know a lot of what they are tied to has its origin in conspiracy theory and you know they kind of came to prominence where you know a lot more people knew about them during the Bundy Ranch standoff in the desert of Nevada, south of Las Vegas. So the way I kind of got hooked up into them is, you know I at that point was a independent journalist, kind of a do it yourself type guy. I had some podcasts and whatnot. And you know I had written professionally before back in the early 90s for some local magazines and stuff and was I started seeing stories on national news. And you know I was I just moved up to montana from colorado it was around easter weekend when, you know, really started making promise. I started looking into it and and found some interviews on info wars, alex jones's, uh, infowars Alex Jones's outlet. And you know there is this big kind of call out for good American patriots and militiamen and whatnot to go down to this tiny, you know old ranch in you know tiny little town of Bunkerville, nevada, south of Vegas, there and take a stand against the federal government. And you know, I've always kind of been the type of person who's drawn to big events, whether it's natural disasters or, you know, civil unrest, whatnot. I've always been someone who's just kind of gone there, whether you know, both as a younger adult and then you know later on as an adult doing it, you know covering it for news stories, or you know going to get an adult doing it, you know covering it for news stories, or you know going to get the story, or to go get pictures that I would intend to use in artwork. So I thought this was a really historic moment and, um, I uh, I had some connections into some some Republican politics due to a kind of a social experiment I had done before I left Colorado, so that I had gotten some some contacts there, and I reached out to them and just saying, hey, you know, have you heard of these guys, have you heard of this thing going on down in Nevada and kind of looking around for how I might be able to go get embedded in and do some stories.

Jason: 10:04

At the time I was doing some broadcasts for Revolution Radio and podcasts and whatnot, and sure enough. I started digging around and by the end of the day I got some calls from a guy and he was handling a lot of the video and social media aspects for the Oath Keepers. Um, and his name was Jim White. He had a his own kind of do-it-yourself news outlet up in northwest Montana called Northwest Liberty News and, um, by by that evening I I had the okay to go ahead and and uh, go down with Stuart Rhodes embedded in his vehicle, and so so I took the opportunity to go see what was going on.

Jason: 10:49

I really didn't have a lot going on at that point in time. I had just moved from Fort Collins, colorado, up to the Butte Montana area and you know I'd owned a tattoo shop previous to moving, so I just sold it and just wanted to get out of Colorado for a little bit. I pretty much grown up here from the time I was 10 or 12 and been there my whole life. So I really hadn't gotten many places and decided you know, my oldest daughter was over 18 at this point and my other two daughters I thought should get some some different experience, life experience. So we moved to Montana and so when this opportunity came, I thought should get some different experience, life experience. So we moved to Montana and so when this opportunity came, I jumped on it and so, yeah, I wound up driving up to Kalispell which is actually right up on the Canadian border, but you know it was a three and a half hour trip up and wound up meeting Stuart Rhodes there and then traveling with him down south to Bunkerville, and I spent about two weeks with Stuart and this was after.

Jason: 11:53

So we had the Bundy Ranch is kind of broken in two periods of time. You have the initial setup when you had, like, ammon Bundy getting tased and the, the BLM, actually began rambling up cattle. They had between, I think, 150 and 300 heads of cattle rounded up, um, and then there was that big showdown, which was those iconic images that we see, uh, you know, like Eric Parker splayed out on the bridge overlooking the corral where the, the federal agents and and the cows were being kept, and you had this kind of line of cowboys on horseback and you know a bunch of people with flags converging on that and there was actual guns pointed, you know, from either direction. Um and uh. So that was kind of the big standoff day, the culmination, and I wasn't there for that. I came stewart.

Jason: 12:43

After that happened he went right back up to Montana to get more supplies and such and and bring in more people. And that's when I was able to kind of hook in. And so I went down there and spent the time I, you know, did these, the radio cast for Revolution Radio and you know, had kind of a bird's eye view. I was kind of right there with this group of people we had traveled down with and so I went through that experience and then he thought the coverage that I did was fair and so he invited me up to the next one which was up in. It was a sugar pine mine incident up in um, up in Oregon, and um, it had to do with some miners that had a a, a mineral rights dispute. So that was kind of the second of these, these events.

Jason: 13:35

And then the third, um, and they happened, you know, a couple of months after each other and uh, the white hope mine happened real quickly after that and it's at the White Hope mine that I actually got offered a position working there and you know I had gone up to Montana thinking I was going to open another tattoo shop and that just didn't pan out with the way the economy was up there, so I really didn't have much else going on. I had done some part-time work as a livestock inspector but when I went up to Lincoln, montana, stuart had asked for some help in just kind of proofreading and editing a press release that he was doing. I don't know if he did it purposely, maybe he did, but he wound up putting my name on the bottom, along with the other people involved, along with with, you know, the other people involved, and that, of course, got me a call from supervisors right away, that you know. So I wound up resigning from that job and and really didn't have anything then. And, you know, I thought this could be the start of a possible book project and accepted a job as an associate editor for their website and the title he had put together was national media director and it was my job to oh, to write articles covering events and things they were doing, um, and to go to these events when they did happen and, you know, film and take pictures and set up interviews for Stuart and um things. And I stayed with that job for about a year and a half, two years, before it got to the point where I just could not, I couldn't do it and walked away from everything.

Jason: 15:15

And you know that had built because you know what they had presented at the time and what they were evolving to were diverging more and more. They took a very hard right bent, you know, with the rise of Richard Spencer and the alt-right, and really Stuart had found that these events, it was these events and the reactions they got that really drove the direction of the Oath Keepers. You understand, the Oath Keepers is Stuart Rhodes. There is a board of directors and different chapters and whatnot, but when it comes down to it, stuart Rhodes is the one who was in charge of everything and he had set things up that way from the beginning. And you gotta understand, he is a Yale, educated attorney, he's a very smart guy in some ways.

Jason: 16:04

So, yeah, that was that, that was kind of my job there and, um, you know, it lasted for a period of time and then I've kind of been doing this self-imposed penance since, uh, kind of speaking out about the dangers, cause I do feel a certain amount of responsibility for, you know, being a part of the now, I was never a member, I was an employee, but uh, you, you know I do have to own it and I do have to say, you know, yes, I did write for them and yes, I did do this work for them. And you know, for a period of time I did get a little swept up in it and so I've just got to own that. But you know, these days, and I think I kind of underestimated them, I never would have thought, you know, just based on my impressions of things, that they would have made it to, you know, being a key element of what transpired on January 6th at the Capitol. But they were, and you know, I, I, I guess I saw it more as a scam, for you know that Stewart had kind of put together a drift, um, that allowed him to, to, you know, have this, this sense of power and, and you know, finance a certain lifestyle, and not that it was a very grandiose lifestyle, but it, you know, he's able to travel around all the time and you know, each take dinners at Applebee's every night.

Jason: 17:18

So you know, I, I had kind of dismissed it as, as you know well, that's just Stuart doing his thing. But obviously I underestimated things a bit and and you know, I had kind of dismissed it, as you know well, that's just Stewart doing his thing. But obviously I underestimated things a bit and you know, when we saw the bloodshed happen at Mullier Refuge, I thought that was a real indicator. I think we've gotten really, really lucky because, you know, the danger doesn't necessarily lie within Stewart Roads and the people like Stewart Roads necessarily lie within Stuart Rhodes and the people like Stuart Rhodes it really kind of is in these kind of outliers that are are just so inspired and you know this, they have very specific techniques that they employ, that you know they're finding hot button issues that have an emotional reaction and that they're really pushing those, you know, and tying themselves into that agenda and they kind of look for these events to insert themselves into, to gain more donations and gain more membership and, you know, keep the whole thing going.

Shawn: 18:16

So I'm glad you bring up January 6th, because there's a particular lens I want to look at this through. To look at this through and I'm really interested in your feedback which is, to most Americans, their introduction to organizations like Proud Boys, oath Keepers, you know, 3%ers, et cetera, is because of January 6th and and at that point, by that time, I think there was a broad brush that painted all the organizations essentially the same. You know that they all share the same common cause, they have the same beliefs, they all want the same things. Maybe at that point, to some degree, that may have been true.

Jason: 18:53

Well, it's true, depending on the circumstances. So these organizations are very quick to demonize each other and throw each other under the bus. You know, and they're what I would term pissing matches that happen all the time amongst these different groups. You know, one's always calling another a fad or you know that they're not for real. But the second that, and a good example of this is for a period of time when I was with the Oath Keepers, and a good example of this is for a period of time when I was with the Oath Keepers, there was one of these periods of time where there was kind of that pissing match going on between Alex Jones and Stuart Rhodes. You'll notice there was a couple of years where neither was on either's media outlets and you know appearing on each other's shows and being guests and even talked about or mentioned. And it all stems back to, you know, a disagreement that happened at. There was a big gun rally at the Alamo and you know someone's feelings got hurt and it snowballed into this thing. But as soon as they saw, you know this, this common theme where they could once again further each other's agendas, you know they were just best buds again.

Jason: 20:02

You know Stuart was on info wars leading up to what those events that happened on the six. And you know, I again I got a preface to this and I prefaced it with, you know, the congressional investigators when I talked with them because they had asked me to come give a historical precedence background on kind of the Oath Keepers. You know I've I've been away out of this game for you know, a while, many years, and my small sliver of what I saw firsthand that I can speak on was during that period of time and I kind of washed my hands, other than you know, now that I've got the book deal and stuff, I'm revisiting all of it and but for a long time I just wanted it out of my mind, out of my head. I wanted to put some good karma in the well and and just move on.

Jason: 20:52

So you know, but but talking from historical precedents, yeah it, you know they, they will align, you know, and it's happened with the Proud Boys, you know, when you looked at some of the events that happened with the Patriot Prayer Groups in the Seattle area, in Portland, whereas Stewart wants to project the optics of being that tip of the spear, and you know the brawlers that are willing to take care of business. But you'll notice Stewart is always right behind the line where he's going to get in trouble and towing it. You know very closely. So I think that kind of set the tone for the relationship. You know, because the Proud Boys were able to see kind of the true Stewart when at these events and you know so you know they aligned again. Obviously we saw that they were meeting in the parking structure from the, you know the, the releases from the, the court thing, and you know there there was communication going on there. But again it was when it could both benefit those, benefit both groups.

Shawn: 22:05

So this is an interesting point to me, and one I wouldn't otherwise have known, which is that you know these tensions exist between and across the groups and that you know January 6th was, you know, a convergence point wherein you know all of these groups could share this common cause. I think that misrepresentation, but what I think most of us see this through is that all of these groups have the same objective and they coalesce. That in and of itself is scary, but I think what you're saying is actually a bit more scary because, assuming this had worked on January 6th, because assuming this had worked on January 6th, now we're faced with a whole bunch of groups clamoring for power that don't actually share the same objective. What is the end game then?

Jason: 22:58

No, and that's kind of eye-opening too, because for a period of time, I don't know if you're familiar with a gentleman called Ernie Tertelget. He is the model for when law enforcement is training on the sovereign citizen movement. He is also known as the Montana natural man. If you just YouTube him you can find all kinds of stuff. Well, he actually wound up being my next door neighbor, because where I lived up in Eureka when I was working for the Oath Keepers, I was living on property of Oath Keeper supporters and it was who's who of that realm.

Jason: 23:27

My eyes really opened when I did a series of interviews with Ernie just talking about all right, well, what are your views? Because you've got all this crazy legal gibberish that really doesn't make sense to people and I think that is intended not really to make sense to the average person and even legal professionals. That okay. So what is it you want to get to? And really it wants to get to anarchy. You know, at least with what Ernie was saying in the sovereign citizen movement, you know, as far as, like Proud Boys and Oathers or three percenters I think we're seeing that now in Idaho and Texas, where it's just a a cultural divide, where they their version of freedom is, you know, great for them if you're you're a white Christian, you know far-right fundamentalist, um, it works out real good. But if you deviate from that, you know, if you're a woman who believes in reproductive rights or you're a trans woman or you know part of the queer community that looks radically different living in that world, and so I think you know there's a spectrum of it.

Jason: 24:39

You have people like Ernie who want to see anarchy and no law, and you know anarchy where everyone's going to just behave and respect each other's rights. But I don't think human nature is really. We're not ready for anarchy, true political anarchy. And don't get me wrong, I've had a lot of anarchist yearnings in the past.

Jason: 25:00

I would consider myself an extreme centrist these days and you know so you have that.

Jason: 25:07

And then you have kind of this misogynistic, you know, alpha male dominated culture that the proud boys would want to see.

Jason: 25:17

And then you know, with something like Stuart, it's having the authenticity, the, you know being seen as legitimate, you know, as some sort of paramilitary folk leader who you know helped to restore the country to a mythology of what it may have one day been in his eyes, to a mythology of what it may have one day been in his eyes, with a president that you know sees and acknowledges that and accepts his help, his offer for help. You know Stuart was always trying to go around the country offering, you know, like the county clerk who wasn't officiating, the gay marriages you know, offered to provide her security. He's always offering to provide security for, you know, the recruiting centers. When that happened, the you know that's just part of his MO and he was always being turned down. I mean, it was rare that he was accepted. So I think he you know part of it is being seen as this legitimate patriot version of a freedom fighter leader and coming to power and respect and recognition through that.

Shawn: 26:35

So I have two things I want to talk about, and one of them is Trump, but I want to put a pin in it. So if I forget, let's swing back to this about. And one of them is Trump, but I want to put a pin in it. So if I forget, let's swing back to this. Okay, but first. So anarchy in and of itself is like a you know like a governing theory, right. I mean it's kind of like an anti-governing theory.

Shawn: 26:50

Yeah, that everyone has personal responsibility to respect property rights and everything else it doesn't feel like, at the end of the day, let's say, you know, this is at least a professed you know objective or goal for these organizations. It doesn't feel like that's the case and I hear that between the lines of what you're saying, which is it seems to me like what is actually happening is they want to remove the guardrails that keep them in line from pursuing the world. They want, which is, you know, to eradicate the world of people they don't like, or at least be able to physically and abusively keep them in line, and right now the government is stopping them from doing that.

Jason: 27:32

Sure, yeah, absolutely I agree with you and that's very much it. You know they, they want their worldview and their their community, and that's it. You know they want the freedom to do what they want to do, but they don't want to afford real freedom to other people within that community, and that's what's scary about you know some of these people, these icons of the community, who are now running for state legislator. You know Ammon Bundy's running for governor right now. You know, and they're finding new ways to gain momentum with. You know we saw this with the Ammon Bundy's group during the COVID lockdowns with the mask mandates, and you know rebelling against that, getting arrested in the state capitol. And you know these groups look at what's working for one group and they will employ similar tactics for their own aims.

Shawn: 28:25

It's an interesting and scary thing.

Jason: 28:27

I think there's a whole lot of things that you know, they proclaim to be but really is not the case, you know, and that can be pretty easily illustrated with, say, stewart, and you know he, he for the longest time proclaimed not to be racist and he would.

Jason: 28:45

He would point to his I believe it was his mother or his grandmother who he would tell the story would had come over, you know, across the Mexican border, to work in the, the agricultural industry of Southern California. And yet here he is offering to provide security, and quite poorly, I might add, because the day that Stuart or Richard Spencer got punched in the face was the day that Stuart and the Oath Keepers were doing security. But you know, and I don't think Stuart at heart is a racist person, I think he just has his finger on the pulse of his audience and caters to where they're going to, you know, whether that be through conspiracy theory, you know, I think conspiracy theory and what is hot within you know, the conspiracy theories of that particular culture, is really what they gravitate to. It really kind of is a major driver in that area.

Shawn: 29:48

Well, that makes me wonder, then, though, how much of this is a genuine ideological disposition, like a set value set versus playing to, you know, dollars and visibility.

Jason: 30:04

I would argue that the vast majority of it is playing towards dollars and visibility. And that comes from my day-to-day work that I was doing, where you know, part of our job was to go see what was happening out there, you know, in those echo chambers, in social media and on the news and news outlets and whatnot, try to find those stories that were really kind of going viral and, you know, craft our own version of that story that served Stewart's aims and purposes. So let's swing back to Donald Trump.

Shawn: 30:42

And I don't want to oversimplify this, but I kind of have to which is there have been extremist groups on the right and the left for time immemorial, and there's always been some other missing piece that didn't allow, like coalescing to the point of boiling over. And where I'm going with this is I have this thought, which is that Donald Trump, in the position he was in, so the presidency which afforded him, an immense amount of power provided the bridge puzzle piece that was missing.

Jason: 31:18

Absolutely and went a little further further. The Trump administration, according to, to you know, stories that I've been told, um was actively reaching out to these militia communities. This happened through Roger Stone um who was setting up meetings Um, so during during these candidacies, candidacy um, they uh, there was a guy running for down in in Nevada running for an office there and he was a brothel owner and so Roger Stone came down to talk with them. But they, they went off to this. It was like a Christian retreat, uh ranch area and they were having water rights issues so they were talking about doing a standoff there. But there was a gathering of people within the community I actually got invited to it that were going there specifically to meet and just talk with Roger Stone and no one really knew why and I think we see kind of the fruition to that and that was right at the end of everything. So I was done already.

Jason: 32:26

But you know, it's very surprising to see that. You know they were reaching out to the militia community and who was providing security for Roger Stone? You know, on the day of the 6th and the day previous to that, it was the Oath Keepers. On the day of the 6th and the day previous to that it was the Oath Keepers. But I think he probably did make some inroads in and I'm interested to see what we discover with the legal proceedings moving forward to see how much that may have tied into things as far as opening lines of communication. But yeah, stewart was just waiting for that type of opportunity and I think he really kind of got it with the Trump administration.

Shawn: 33:05

You know, what I find somewhat fascinating, I mean, I guess maybe it's not uncommon, especially with kind of dugogs, is this you know, like Trump made a lot of promises about putting skin in the game. You know, and some examples are. You know, I'm going to walk with you to the Capitol, yeah, I mean.

Jason: 33:25

And that's, these guys seem to be made cut from the same cloth. I mean Stuart, again he was there. He was calling for people to show up and donations and was purchasing equipment all along the way and, you know, had people there and we saw that that that wedge formation, stack formation, going up the capitals that have become iconic. And yet where was Stewart? He was never in the Capitol, he was right on the edge. You know they didn't get them for for the trespassing, they got them for the conspiracy. You know Trump's the same way, like the MLO, is a get to, to use an emotional touchstone to get people just worked up and then, you know, get them to do the stupid things.

Shawn: 34:07

Well, and that's where I'm going is walk into the White.

Jason: 34:10

House.

Shawn: 34:11

Right, right, and I mean also even campaigning. Like you know, if you get into scuffles, I'll pay your legal bills.

Jason: 34:17

And that never happened Right.

Jason: 34:19

Yeah, and Stuart that's a long tradition with. Actually he was disbarred from the Montana Bar Association because he had a string of clients that and part of his his you know soapbox speech when he was calling for donations and calling for people to go out and do these things was you know, if you were going to help pay you to get there and stay and feed you while you're here, make sure you get home and if there's trouble, if you get, you know, something happens. I'm a Yale, educated attorney and I'll take care of you. And he abandoned so many people that they disbarred him. That's why they disbarred him.

Jason: 35:00

And Jerry DeLamus is a perfect example of this. He's someone who came out from the East Coast, was later arrested for the Bundy Ranch standoff. He was an Oath Keeper. He went on behalf of the Oath Keepers and you know his wife was then a state legislator back where they came from. I think it was like Delaware, somewhere in New England. I remember fielding calls for Stuart with him in the. You know I would be driving with him and we'd get a call and it would be Susan DeLamus, just in tears begging Stuart to help. And of course he would tell her he's going to do all these things, but he never did. He never did it with anyone. He never helped a single person that he inspired to go and, and, you know, take these stands that he, you know, use that, that emotion to whip them up and, uh, yeah, that that's. That's an ongoing pattern that has been there from the start and, um, you know, we saw same thing with with, you know, kind of a microcosm, macrocoscosm, with the Trump administration.

Shawn: 36:04

I mean not to put a too fine a point on it, but it does seem surprising that they could make such fools out of so many people time and time again.

Jason: 36:13

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and again it just, it doesn't matter. People are in these echo chambers and you know, the more you know a legitimate journalist will come through and question and call things out, the more that this, this echo chamber group would just see it as. Oh well, that's the, the mainstream media with fake news them up. They're just, you know it just fed to this kind of folk hero um mythology. That just was, you know, the first thing from the truth.

Shawn: 36:49

I guess that begs the question, or all of this begs the question, of like with this landscape, right? So the, these organizations are have proliferated, they've been able to recruit at a much higher rate than prior to, let's just say, the Trump administration. But Trump is not going anywhere. He's talking about running for office again.

Jason: 37:08

Yeah, and the scary part is he's talking about pardoning everyone.

Shawn: 37:13

Right, which I would imagine further emboldens folks.

Jason: 37:18

You have this kind of weird cycle that happens so when you get a very right-wing person, so within these communities. For me, part of the barometer of where we are culturally is look at the sales of things like survival food and kind of preparing for this big battle between the federal government and good Americans. That has become part of this mythology. You know, when you had Hillary Clinton in office and you know if it's a left person, business is really really good. I know people that have made just a ton of money. You know the same sort of model with Infowars and Alex Jones. Does you know vitamin supplements and storable food and ammunition companies and you know they're making a lot of money, but when someone Trump comes in, that dies out, it kind of flatlines Right.

Jason: 38:21

It wasn't until you know the election where Trump was going to kind of, you know, have his, his presidency quote unquote stolen, that things really got crazy because we kind of had a lull there. And you know it's kind of this pendulum that swings back and forth depending on who's in office and it's, you know, every time it's becoming a more and more extreme reaction and that's also part of what really scares me, along with what happens like on either end, because you know Trump gets elected that's a whole nother set of scary things to worry about than if he doesn't, and Stuart gets put in jail and these people get put in jail and now we have a power vacuum and who knows what's going to rise up to fill that void. If history is any sort of cue, things are ratcheting up each time. It's becoming more extreme each time, each cycle, and you know where does that eventually lead.

Shawn: 39:23

Well, I mean, that actually leads to my next question, and I guess I'm going to ask you to prognosticate, you know, as best you can, but where is all this going? What can we expect the next few years from these organizations?

Jason: 39:36

I think they're going to become more and more ingrained into local politics. I think that that's going to give a certain amount of legitimacy to the groups surrounding them and that that's going to embolden them. I think the only way and I've been talking with a lot of people about this, I've been talking with people over at Georgetown Law, mary McCord, you know some kind of nonprofit think tanks, and then documentarians I've had actually a discussion with a gentleman who's putting together a Netflix documentary. He wants me to be in that. You know what? How do we, how do we get off this track? How do we fix this? And it's got to start with employing some of the same techniques that we've seen the extreme issues, and that is storytelling. Good, you know, heart touching, emotional touching storytelling where we can humanize, because we've come to this point where the right and the left have dehumanized each other so much that you know they're not even really seeing them as human anymore. It's always those. You know Antifa leftists, you know troublemakers, or you know communist block representatives. And I got to say the right right now is kind of schizophrenic with communism because there's a segment that really likes Putin and this whole. You know big man, authoritarianism, kick and those that you know communism is awful, so I think there's a certain amount of soul searching that needs to happen there. But you know, I think the only way we do this, the best way we have to change a culture. We just seem to be wired for storytelling. You know that, to a certain extent, has been well weaponized and I think we need to reclaim that and do it. You know, use it as a balm, use it as a healing agent, that we've got to actually open some dialogues, some conversations, you know, between family members, starting family members that have diverging political beliefs. We've got to start talking to one another as human beings and listen to each other.

Jason: 41:50

There's this huge divide right now between rural and urban America and that divide started from very real things. If you look back in the history of what really kicked off Bundy Ranch, it had to do with certain legislation that was passed for the Mojave Desert Tortoise. You know, endangerment regulations that were enacted really didn't take a look at the bigger picture. And you know, 10 years before the Bundy Ranch standoff, the Bundys had 50 other farming families that were their neighbors and by the time Bundy Ranch happened, cliven was the last man standing. He was the last cattle rancher there and you know that all ties back to a urban development project that Clark County wanted to push forward.

Jason: 42:49

And in exchange for getting this from the government agency that gave those permits with the tortoise, because they knew that this urban development was going to have a negative effect.

Jason: 42:59

They knew that this urban development was going to have a negative effect. So they in fact and this is actually coming from Reuters, you know they made a deal with them saying we're going to try to buy out every rancher there is and get the cattle off of you know the public lands there. And so they were trying to say that look, this is having an impact on the way we make a living and the way our family has made a living for generations. But they felt it really landed on deaf ears and everyone was pushed out. We've got to look at our approaches with government regulation and really listen to what the impact of that rural community is really having, because it does have major effects. We've got to start there, otherwise we're going to continue to have this kind of battle happening. So that's the best I can come up with is it starts with conversations, and I think those conversations can be spurred through good storytelling.

Shawn: 44:02

Given the fact that most of these organizations, if not all, are pretty resistant to government, is there a role for government in this and if not, then how do we promote this idea of storytelling as a bomb?

Jason: 44:21

Um, you know, I think we got to decide, as a community of creatives, of, you know, smart individuals living it right here and now, to think all right, instead of just, you know, becoming further divided and fall further into this, this kind of tribalism, that we need to start really thinking outside the box, because what we've been doing hasn't been working, so we've got to try something else.

Jason: 44:48

I don't know where the government would be in that, I mean, I'm sure I mean they've got to have a seat at the table too for this to work all the way around. So, you know, I don't know what that answer is really. I just know that what we've been doing has led us to where we are now and we have to not just look at these flashpoints that are happening. You know the optics of the news, you know when the riots are happening and the guns are pointed at each other. We've got to go back and look at what brought us there and why people have gotten to a point where someone like Stuart Rhodes can come and tap into that emotional reaction and make it even worse.

Shawn: 45:36

So let's make this a little more personal, then, because I could imagine someone in your position. I think there is, I agree with you you said this earlier like you're not wanting to relive some of that history, but also there's a kind of a value in documenting that and you know being aware of that. But also I could imagine, especially for someone like you that identifies as a creative as this is not the balm for you per se that a better use of your time and I'm putting words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong a better use of your time and I'm putting words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Shawn: 46:06

A better use of your time would be to pivot to those creative outlets that you have to start to create, that what you call.

Jason: 46:14

You know this ball right, and so I'm wondering if you're doing that and and what that looks like no, I I am, you know, and if you look at so I I got back into writing when I moved back to Colorado about four years ago. Um, you know, I started just kind of covering things on my own and doing um kind of politically motivated artwork you know, which I've shown in in galleries down and then right at a whole series, um, that showed a bit factory, that used just colorado-based trans models to start doing conversations there.

Jason: 46:52

I've created some pieces around the treatment of J-1 visa workers here in Estes Park, colorado, and just you know the stories. And then I got a job writing for the local newspaper, which is owned by, you know, the same company that owns Denver Post and Alvin Global Media. But I worked for about a year and a half as a staff reporter here at Estes Park and just the types of stories I was writing, that was kind of gearing up for this, so I knew that my story would have some relevance anyway as things progressed. And then when the Capitol insurrection happened, just before that happened, I'd been playing. I'd interviewed a gal who is a New York Times bestseller and owns an agency that happens to be local here and was telling her about some of my stories and she was like you need to start telling these. And I'd also for the last several years, been working behind the scenes with some very large stories about that segment, you know. But I was doing it as an unnamed source, it was. You know I've been contacted by documentary. I mean I get a new documentary film crew contacting me every other week and you know there are talks now about, you know, producing and working on some series. I've been contacted by some pretty big names, but you know it all I've got. I always want to tell my story in my own voice, my own words, and I just needed to be ready to do that.

Jason: 48:15

And so me and my agent decided to start pitching this book around. And it really had no interest until I started using my name, cause my agent was like look, you got to start using your name. You can't do this, you know, from from behind the scenes anymore If we want to do this and really have the impact. And so I started off with a Washington Post article that came out. It was it was November before the Capitol insurrection. That's the first time I used my name with one of these kind of top shelf journalists that I had been working with behind the scenes for years and that led to the Hulu documentary and led to the Nightline appearances, a clip that then made it on Good Morning America. You know a lot of press coverage and of course, that press coverage led directly to having the congressional investigators having a voice to me 630 that morning, next morning, and you know going and you know telling my story to the congressional investigators. You know just figuring out what's all right. So if I'm going to do this. If there's value to what I can, I can do here what's the best way to do that. And that's kind of how I hooked in. I'm going to be doing a series of speaking events, starting in August with Georgetown Law me and Mary McCord, who's kind of heading up Georgetown Law's constitutional side of things there and these types of projects, and she's the one who's kind of plugging me into these. You know these these nonprofit think tanks trying to figure out all right, so how do we, how do we do better? How do we, how do we start working on this problem? And so it's going to start in Milwaukee. I'll be doing a dinner talk for, you know, local state legislators and law enforcement leadership and you know DAs and such, and that's going to start in Milwaukee and then it's going to go to like Maine and Pennsylvania and stuff. So we're starting there.

Jason: 50:14

You know there's been talk of you know I've had documentary film producers and directors and producers, you know, begin to reach out to me to talk about different subjects or wrap kind of in the peripheral of that and as of this morning and then talk of me actually helping to produce and direct a documentary of my own tackling these subjects. So you know, it's it's it's evolving and I also, you know, I've got my own gigs going on. I also, you know, I've got my own gigs going on. I've got my. I've got a little news outlet that's for local news here in Estes Park, colorado, and regionally across northern Colorado, called the Colorado Switchblade, and podcast that I do with that and the book is going to be coming out, you know.

Jason: 50:57

But we got to kind of see, you know, because there's talk that the I may be a bigger part of the, you know, once we move from investigation to an actual court case, I may be called upon by Congress to give my experiences and thoughts there.

Jason: 51:24

So it's kind of just like just exploded since I put my name out there in the public sphere and kind of came out with well, this is my story and this is how I feel about things. So we'll see. It's just now beginning to take shape and evolve and part of me didn't really feel like there was much value in my story. I mean, I had a small sliver of this experience and came in as an outsider and then plugged in and got swept away a little bit and then, you know, broke away before things really got crazy and that was before Charlottesville happened and you know, things kind of took that more of a violent, you know feel, if you can say that, coming from our government standoffs. It's unfolding in its own time but, yes, more and more people are showing me that there is value to to. You know me speaking out and you know if I, if that can be part of my own personal penance, then that's what I'm going to do.

Shawn: 52:11

I have this fear that we, at least in the United States, have kind of lost the value in concepts like forgiveness and redemption, and I think that's dangerous because they offer off ramps for people like opportunities for how do?

Jason: 52:23

we move forward in a productive way without that.

Shawn: 52:27

Right, and so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this and how you've navigated this in your experience.

Jason: 52:32

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I did feel like you know, my daughters are just like the center of my life and, you know, I found ways to support our family while being at home so I can take care of them. You know, my wife is medically disabled, you know. So I now have an opportunity where, you know, I've got to show them through my own life how to be successful in life and how to try to live with a moral compass. They were right there with me with a lot of this stuff and you know, going to court hearings and such with them and the coverage that I was doing back in the day, you know, I'd bring my daughter with me, I'd bring my middle daughter, but she's my oldest daughter, is quite a bit older, you know.

Jason: 53:19

So they've always been a part of my life's journey since they've been here and it's my job to help teach them and and I've got to show them like, yeah, it's okay to, you know, get swept up and and be associated with this type of thing, but you got to go try to do something to to make up for it.

Jason: 53:34

You got to try to to to better the world and and you know I I feel bad already for the world that they're going to be inheriting from us, that you know there's all this craziness going on all around the world and and you know the craziness here I was actually in the middle of that mix to a certain extent. So we've got, I've got to show them that you know that you can come back from that and you can try to make a difference. And the important part is trying. You know, who knows if there'll be any differences made. We may just spiral and crash and burn, but I can't. Just, you know, if there's something I can do to try to help, then I do have to do it, because I've got to show them I'm going to try to make the world better for them.

Shawn: 54:16

One more question for you. What have you been reading or watching lately that's been particularly interesting to you lately, and it doesn't have to even be related to what we're talking about.

Jason: 54:33

Yeah, yeah, particularly interesting to you lately and it doesn't have to even be related to what we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, um, you know, I, uh, I've been watching you. I wrote an article about it actually, and I did a podcast on an article, um about it. I included my oldest daughter for kind of a younger view on this, but the the, the climate change issue for me has been huge. We live here in Estes Park. Literally just this morning they took down the mandatory evacuations for a wildfire five miles out of town. The beginning of winter there was the Kruger Rock fire right on the east side of town of town. Last summer we were evacuated twice for the Cameron Peak fire, which was the largest fire in our state history here in Colorado, and then also for the Troublesome fire which came over the other side of the park, and we also have had, you know, several major floods in recent history. So, being up in the mountains, right next to rocky mountain national park, climate change is very apparent here, because we're in a land of extremes and so those extremes get exacerbated with this climate change, and so you know that that had a profound effect on me. Now the the premise isn't, I mean it's, it's, it is climate change, but you, but they're doing it as a satire piece about a comet or meteorite coming in to hit this. You know, dissonant cognitive effect happening where you know we're too tied up in our in escaping to our social media and the lives that we're living, that we don't see the world burning down around us. That's something that I've been watching recently that has a profound impact.

Jason: 56:20

Reading I've been going back over. Well, first off, I read a lot of Stephen King. So I was reading his newest novel and the fiction I write is like supernatural horror fiction. That's kind of. It's following it all you know beat up punk rock journalists in Colorado, and it's set like the first novel, set during the, the wildfires of last year, and and also deals with the, the, the treatment of the J one visa workers during the pandemic lockdown. So you know, I wrap it in my fiction stories. I wrap a little, you know, see the truth to try to spur some conversations. And then the other thing I've been reading a lot I've just been going through, like the columns of Hunter S Thompson. I've been working my way through his entire omnibus.

Shawn: 57:11

Well, I really enjoyed this. I'm glad that you took the time to have a conversation with me.

Jason: 57:15

No, no, it was good.

Shawn: 57:21

After these two interviews Dr Hodden last week and Jason this week I'm particularly struck by a few things and, to be honest, at least in the short term, I'm not super hopeful. One, these organizations have an ideology, for sure, but that ideology is malleable and often changes based on the strength of a revenue stream or how much attention they get. This makes it particularly difficult to understand what they want and to then even begin to address their grievance. Two, how leaders of these organizations, and including people like Donald Trump, use their followers, their membership, as useful idiots in pursuing their own personal goals, promising some glory, money and protection in exchange for loyalty, and often asking or expecting their members to put themselves in physically dangerous or legally tenuous situations that they themselves avoid. There's no dignity, no honor in that, it's just exploitation and abuse. And finally, the danger to the republic, to the union, as these fringe organizations have been embraced by, in fact, are themselves political elites, politicians that have ceded our American seat of democracy, our institutions, our chambers of law and policymaking. They are now inside the house they want to burn down. This is chilling, and I also agree with Jason's suggestion that sharing our stories, reconnecting with each other as Americans, as humans, is a critical component of beginning to at least rebuild a bridge between our families and our communities.

Shawn: 58:54

All right, so it has not escaped me that I've been neglecting Pride Month and I've brought you a few heavy episodes. So next week, in recognition of Pride Month, I'm bringing you two episodes. On Monday, june 27th, I'm going to bring the temperature down a bit when I'll be talking to my buddy, duncan Tucker, the writer and director of the movie Transamerica. We'll talk about a bunch of things, but I really focus on how such a small independent film with somewhat controversial subject matter for the time became a critical darling that carried two Oscar nominations. And on Friday, july 1st, I'm talking to Marty Moore, the executive director of Out Boulder County, about the advocacy and support work they do and the state of queer rights in the United States today. In the meantime, as always.

Shawn: 59:39

If you have any thoughts, questions or comments, you can email me at deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom, and you can find me on Twitter at deepdiveshawn, and on Instagram at deepdivewithshawn.

Shawn: 59:53

Chat soon, folks. Thank you.