PoliticsAside: The Future of Presidential Debates with Frank Fahrenkopf

On the morning of the first 2024 Presidential debate, Congressman Porter was joined on PoliticsAside by Frank Fahrenkopf, co-founder and current co-Chairman of the Commission on Presidential Debates. They discussed fascinating parallels to the iconic Kennedy-Nixon debates, highlighting the transformative role of technology in elections.  The conversation also covered potential implications of the changes in the debate format as well and the absence of the traditional town hall format. Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation on the future of presidential debates.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to, politics Aside, today is June 27th 2024. Election day almost, but it certainly could turn the tide for the election, the presidential election of 2024. Today is debate day as well, june 27th 2024. And some of you that are listening, some of my friends and some of you that are listening some of my friends remember, or at least studied, what happened in the debates in 60 between the candidates for presidency, of course, john F Kennedy and Richard Nixon. I felt, and I think many of us have, that that changed the course of history for politics in the US, if not the world, because of the use of television Today, not unlike in the 60s, there's a lot of firsts that I want to talk about here really quick and then I'm going to introduce my special guest. So, not unlike the 60s debate, some of the firsts are first-ever TV debate with two presidency sitting and former member. The first debate with the majority party candidate convicted of a felony crime. First earliest debate with 90 days between today and the next one in September.

Speaker 1: 1:12

And I think, most significant. First is the era of short, silent, what appears to be siloed communications. You know, 30 second clips cheap, fake, whatever the term of the day is. Second clips cheap fake, whatever the AI term of the day is. Also troubling to me is they're circumventing the Presidential Debate Commission and bless the network, cnn and what they were able to arrange with the candidates they made the choice. But historically, one of the deciding factors of good government and good government government and good governance it was the presidential and is the Presidential Debate Commission. So today one of my good friends for years, frank Farenkoff, is with us. Former chair of the RNC, close friends of Ronald Reagan, plus many other leaders around the world. In his career headed and started the American Gaming Association where we met Frank in the 90s, initially Also a co-founder and also the chair through the years, of the Commission of Presidential Debates. So, frank Farenkoff, welcome. What is going on?

Speaker 2: 2:20

Thank you, john. Thank you Well, we don't know what's going on on. Thank you, john. Thank you Well, we don't know what's going on. Maybe about midnight tonight we'll know what's going on after we see what happens in what is supposedly a debate, which I don't think will be a debate. Let me tell you what I mean by that.

Speaker 2: 2:36

When we remember we went 16 years after the what you referred to as the Kennedy-Nixon debate debates that took place back then. We went 16 years without debates. We had the first debate in modern times really was in 76, with Jerry Ford and then Governor Carter. Then in 1980, we had the president. Well, he was then Governor Reagan and Jimmy Carter, although there was a third candidate that year named John Anderson was a congressman from Illinois who ran as an independent.

Speaker 2: 3:12

The League of Women Voters did the debates in those days and had pretty much the same rules that are now being applied, something called the 15 percent rule. You had to be at 15 percent in an average of the polls and John Anderson actually, when the first debate rolled around, was at 17. So he was invited to participate by the League of Women Voters. He accepted Governor Reagan was the Republican nominee at that time. He also accepted. When they contacted President Carter in the White House, he said hell, no, I won't go. He refused to debate when John Anderson was there. By the time that the next debate rolled around, anderson had fallen to 12 percent so he wasn't invited. There was only one debate that year. We took over we being the Commission on Presidential Debates in 1984. We were formed.

Speaker 2: 4:09

And then the first thing that we did. We started in 88 with regard to the things that we ran, and we've run every debate since 1988. We're nonpartisan, we're tax-free. None of the members of the commission make a nickel. They're not paid, they're all volunteers. The commission make a nickel. They're not paid, they're all volunteers. And we've done 33 presidential and vice presidential debates, starting in 1988.

Speaker 2: 4:30

Now what's happened this year is that the Biden campaign decided that they did not want to do a debate with us. They put together a plan on how the debate was going to be held, sold it to CNN, who signed on, and then the former President Trump, who said he would do it. First years ago he said he wouldn't debate with the commission, but then he said he would debate with the commission. He accepted it almost, like you know, the same day that it was done. I don't think his people really had a chance to look at what the rules were, and what I mean is I'm not sure it's going to be a debate is in our debates, the 90 minutes run without interruption. There's made six parts 15 minutes long, and each section 15-minute section studies a particular issue. It may be foreign policy, it may be taxation, it may be the border, and what we hope happens is that the candidates talk to each other.

Speaker 2: 5:35

That's a debate. What they've got here is that, for example, the moderator will ask a question of President Biden. He has two minutes to reply, then Trump has one minute to reply to that, then Biden gets another minute and then the moderators can spend another minute on that subject. So I don't know how you use five minutes to discuss something like the border and so forth, back and forth, like that, rather than the 15 minutes that we got for each of these issues. So that's going to be the thing. And the other thing is I put in a mute button in the final debate four years ago because President Trump had violated the uninterruption rule. Now they have a button that's going to run through the whole thing. So when you're not asked to speak, your mic is going to be off. That's going to be very interesting to see. So you're not really going to have a debate. It's almost more like an interview of a reporter asking a candidate. So it's going to be interesting to watch, john.

Speaker 1: 6:38

So you know, back to, I guess, the timing, the time allocated. You know, certainly I've been in debates, but nothing of this magnitude, and you know, with my different races through the years and as a candidate, I appreciated the opportunity to have a conversation, uh, although heated, many times. But actually we could share each, you know, share an opinion, or my opponents could share an opinion, and it seems to me that CNN, or whomever happens to be CNN this time, who knows next time can control the outcome of a presentation. If they think it's time to turn it off, they can control it in the middle of a debate. They could.

Speaker 2: 7:22

It's their baby right now. It was fully designed by the Biden campaign, but they've agreed to it, and so you know how they handled it. And what do their talking heads say afterwards? Is there a conflict of interest, since it was run by CNN and the CNN commentators, who are normally on you and see them on Sunday shows and so forth, how are? What are they going to say? There's a conflict of interest. They better say it was a real success or they may not have a job. Love, but there's a conflict of interest there, no question.

Speaker 1: 7:55

And, as we chatted a little bit earlier, and you've been involved in political campaigns your whole life the CNNs, the MSNBCs, the Fox, the political candidates really use those clips in their campaign. They realize there's so many viewers on Fox, so many viewers on CNN, but they want that 10-second or 30-second clip right and is that going to happen Because you had rules in the past on using it.

Speaker 2: 8:21

I don't know what they're going to do with that. The other thing, john, to really pay attention to is how many people actually watch this. The first debate four years ago, nielsen said that around 80 million people watched it. Now the only problem with Nielsen is it doesn't count C-SPAN, it doesn't count all the social media platforms who always worked with us and we put it out. We used the White House pool to do the work and send the message out, and the experts have told me that, sure, nielsen was at 80. But if you counted everybody who streamed and everything else, it's about 120 million people watched the first debate that took place. Now this is going to be an interesting number to see how many people actually see it.

Speaker 2: 9:09

The other thing is, my own view is and I don't know this for sure, but that when CNN agreed to do it, they agreed with the Biden campaign that they would not allow Robert Kennedy Jr under any circumstances to be involved. Now also, there are experts who say not me, I don't know that one of the reasons that the Biden campaign wanted to go easy and early was that not to give Kennedy the chance to get on more ballots and to get maybe higher in the polls. So you've got that crazy thing because our first debate was scheduled the one by the commission was going to be September 16th. Very important would be the earliest debate ever in history. Now we're talking about a June debate and it's the on the 6th of September is the last day that every state in the union will have their presidential ballots done, and not till then.

Speaker 2: 10:10

The interesting thing is tonight, when this debate is held, only seven states will have completed their ballots for the November election with regard to the presidency. So there's a whole bunch of weird things coming out of all of this that I think we're just going to have to wait and look and see what happens. I know that Kennedy has apparently filed something with the Federal Election Commission, but you know, john, you've been in Washington long enough to know and, as a member of Congress, they may decide whatever it is, maybe two years from now. So I don't know. It's going to be a fascinating evening.

Speaker 1: 10:43

I think. Well, following that train of thought for a moment. So we have a presidential debate, earliest ever, with two individuals that haven't really their nomination has been accepted yet by their parties. That's correct. That's correct. How does that change the rules as well? I mean, isn't doesn't get nominated. What's something we?

Speaker 2: 11:04

wouldn't be able to. We wouldn't be able to do it if we were doing it in June, if we were doing it tonight. We would not be able to do it because, as I mentioned, neither Biden nor Trump is going to appear on ballots. You've got to be on enough state ballots to get to 270. And right now, tonight, they're not. Now they're clearly going to probably be the nominees of their party. Clearly Trump, I think and with Biden, we don't know, there's a movement, the Democratic Party perhaps, to see how he does tonight and whether or not they replace him. They got a lot of people lined up the former governor of California and others who might want to make a move in the convention. But so there's a lot of unanswered questions with regard to how this is being done.

Speaker 1: 11:52

So could it be I throw this out there but could it be that the Democrat side chose this date? So there's plenty of time to see what's going to happen before the convention? Is that what I hear you saying?

Speaker 2: 12:04

get on the ticket. I think they wanted to go early, biden's way behind in key states, and I think they wanted to see if they couldn't, getting jacked up, do something. They thought that the State of the Union was going to give him a real lift. It did not. They thought that Trump's convictions were going to give them a real lift. It didn't. It's not. It hasn't really affected. If anything, it probably helped Trump. But I think what they probably went early for is they wanted to make sure that Kennedy was not on the stage, because I think they feared that Kennedy getting involved in the race would hurt Biden's numbers in the fall.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Well, you know the former president said this cycle I'll debate the sitting president anytime, anyplace anywhere you know, and is that kind of how this came about, and it's like, oh, I think that's yeah, I think that's what he said, that over and over the Biden people said, ok, he said he'd do it and let's, let's, let's put in the toughest anti-Trump debate rules and so forth and see if he accepts. If he says no, we can say he wasn't telling the truth. And, of course, what happened is they did it. And the same day, donald said I'll do it, I'll be there.

Speaker 1: 13:26

So yeah, Well, I know that time is short. You have a really busy day, but two questions, and we can carry on later on today. But one that concerns me as well as the technology used today algorithms, uh, and, as you mentioned, who's really going to be watching, or is it all going to be watched in a six second clip? Uh, in 30 or within seconds after a quote, is it going to be pushed around the world to millions of people would be what that mean, and we don't know the rules right now. But if that happens, what would the outcome be from that?

Speaker 2: 14:03

Boy, that's a. You know, although we had, as I indicated earlier, we worked with all the platforms and I don't know that that existed then I don't have no indication that any of the platforms whether it was Facebook or whoever it might have been that did that During the debates or shortly thereafter. Now most of the networks, as you know, had their talking heads do a recap and maybe showed some of what went on in the debate. But you're right, this AI thing scares the heck out of me, probably because I don't understand it at all. I got to have one of my grandkids come and explain it to me, but that's something we don't know, john, and it will go all around the world and one of the things that breaks my heart a little bit, if this goes forward and they have their other debate they have one scheduled in September they're not having a town hall meeting.

Speaker 2: 14:58

The town hall meeting was the most popular format that we've had all the years we've done it. They're an average citizen and look at the president of the United States face to face and ask him or her the question. The same with being able to do it with a former president, I mean, that was the most popular of all of our formats. That's not going to be there. We've always done them on college campuses, involving students, focusing on civics and how important it is to have free elections and so forth. That's gone. No college and we're working. The commission's working with 35 countries around the world. Working. The commission's working with 35 countries around the world with non-governmental entities, helping them put together in their democracies emerging democracies, in most cases debates by their leaders. So that's a lot that upsets me, but let me say this we're not going anywhere. If they go forward and we're not involved in this cycle, we'll just be getting ready for 2028. The Commission on Presidential Debates we've been at it since we were formed in 87, and we'll be there.

Speaker 1: 16:05

Well, frank, I think the last thing within seconds, I guess, but if you had a couple tips for the viewers this evening, what should we be watching for?

Speaker 2: 16:16

Well, that's a really good question, john. I'll tell you why. My perception has always been that there's two things that come out of debates. Number one you hope that the candidates have given answers to where they stand on issues that are important to the American people, so that they know where they're going to be on those issues and when they're voting. But the other thing that's hardly ever mentioned is the mannerisms of the candidates, how they come across. Are they dignified, are they polite? Do they follow the rules? Is there courtesy so they get a feeling for who they're going to vote for? Is this a nice person? I'm going to tell you a funny story.

Speaker 2: 17:02

About a week after the last election, rudy Giuliani called me. Rudy's an old friend and he at that during the time was he was the man working with the commission on behalf of Trump, while Ron Klain was the Democrat person who worked on all Democratic nominees for the past 20 years. And Rudy called me a week after the election. He says you know, mr Chairman? He said if Donald had behaved in the first debate like he behaved in the last debate, he would probably be the president-elect right now. And I said well, rudy, he would probably be the president-elect right now. And I said well, rudy, that's probably right. You know, I don't know, but I'm told you are one of the people who told him to break the rules and try to create some havoc. And he said well, yeah, I did.

Speaker 2: 17:49

I believe the way he handled himself badly in that first debate hurt him and may have cost him the election. I always remember also there was a may have cost him the election. I always remember. Also there was a town hall meeting in the election in 2000 between Al Gore and George W Bush where Al Gore walked over and stood in front of George and George just turned around, looked at him, gave him a smile and everyone started laughing and so forth. It hurt Gore. So they're looking to see what do they know about this person, not just counting the answers on the issues, but they want to like and respect their president. So look for that. Tonight. What you see indicates that this person does have the personality, the candor, the knowledge to be the president of the United States. And then also, what are the demerits If you were a teacher?

Speaker 1: 18:40

you'd be giving Absolutely Well. In conclusion, our mutual friend Senator Richard Bryan from Nevada, former governor and attorney general.

Speaker 2: 18:49

US senator, my fraternity brother, my fraternity brother.

Speaker 1: 18:52

A solid leader told me when I first ran for office a million years ago. He said, john, people may not always remember your votes, but they'll remember how you treat people with courtesy, respect and certainly respect is a big part of that. And to our friend Senator Bryan, I think it's a good conclusion Treat people with respect and courtesy and answer their questions. So with that, frank Varenkoff, a good friend, my best to Mary and to your family, and thank you for your time.

Speaker 2: 19:25

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 19:26

Welcome to chatting after today We'll see what happens.

Speaker 2: 19:29

No question, okay, bye-bye.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Thanks so much, bye now.