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Ever feel like some mysteries are just too macabre to be left unsolved? That's exactly what we thought until we tackled the enigmatic Hinterkaifeck murders, a tale of intrigue and horror that's remained unresolved for a century. Join us, Dave, Matt, and Zap, as we weave through the chilling preludes to the massacre at the Bavarian farmstead, where strange footprints and feelings of being watched set a foreboding scene. We'll recount the peculiar happenings that preceded the discovery of the Gruber and Gabriel families' demise, all while injecting our unique humor to keep you from sleeping with the lights on tonight.
Picture this: a Bavarian farm where life and death clashed in the most bewildering way. As we explore the old farm and its grim legacy, we'll take you through the aftermath of the murders, where routines mysteriously continued as if nothing had happened. We'll debate the dismissal of robbery as a motive and scratch our heads over the perplexing investigation, or lack thereof, that followed this harrowing event. We'll also let you in on the local gossip, past professions, and societal norms of 1922 that add layers of complexity to this already confounding case. So sit tight and prepare to be both enlightened and spooked.
Finally, we'll unravel the web of secrets and whispers that surround Hinterkaifeck. From familial scandals to suspicions cast toward local figures like Lorenz Schlittenbauer, we've got theories that'll make you question everything. We'll dive into how this case has imprinted itself on German culture, akin to America's Manson murders, and discuss the enduring fascination it holds to this day. And just when you think we've covered it all, we'll reveal the tantalizing findings of a 2007 forensic team that identified a prime suspect—whose name remains a secret for a reason you'll just have to tune in to discover. Don't miss this episode, where history, mystery, and a dash of the supernatural collide for one unforgettable discussion.
Sounds:https://freesound.org/people/frodeims/sounds/666222/ Door opening
https://freesound.org/people/Sami_Hiltunen/sounds/527187/ Eerie intro music
https://freesound.org/people/jack126guy/sounds/361346/ Slot machine
https://freesound.org/people/Zott820/sounds/209578/ Cash register
https://freesound.org/people/Exchanger/sounds/415504/ Fun Facts Jingle
Thanks to The Tsunami Experiment for the theme music!!
Check them out here
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"Send us a Fan Mail Text Message"
Ever feel like some mysteries are just too macabre to be left unsolved? That's exactly what we thought until we tackled the enigmatic Hinterkaifeck murders, a tale of intrigue and horror that's remained unresolved for a century. Join us, Dave, Matt, and Zap, as we weave through the chilling preludes to the massacre at the Bavarian farmstead, where strange footprints and feelings of being watched set a foreboding scene. We'll recount the peculiar happenings that preceded the discovery of the Gruber and Gabriel families' demise, all while injecting our unique humor to keep you from sleeping with the lights on tonight.
Picture this: a Bavarian farm where life and death clashed in the most bewildering way. As we explore the old farm and its grim legacy, we'll take you through the aftermath of the murders, where routines mysteriously continued as if nothing had happened. We'll debate the dismissal of robbery as a motive and scratch our heads over the perplexing investigation, or lack thereof, that followed this harrowing event. We'll also let you in on the local gossip, past professions, and societal norms of 1922 that add layers of complexity to this already confounding case. So sit tight and prepare to be both enlightened and spooked.
Finally, we'll unravel the web of secrets and whispers that surround Hinterkaifeck. From familial scandals to suspicions cast toward local figures like Lorenz Schlittenbauer, we've got theories that'll make you question everything. We'll dive into how this case has imprinted itself on German culture, akin to America's Manson murders, and discuss the enduring fascination it holds to this day. And just when you think we've covered it all, we'll reveal the tantalizing findings of a 2007 forensic team that identified a prime suspect—whose name remains a secret for a reason you'll just have to tune in to discover. Don't miss this episode, where history, mystery, and a dash of the supernatural collide for one unforgettable discussion.
Sounds:https://freesound.org/people/frodeims/sounds/666222/ Door opening
https://freesound.org/people/Sami_Hiltunen/sounds/527187/ Eerie intro music
https://freesound.org/people/jack126guy/sounds/361346/ Slot machine
https://freesound.org/people/Zott820/sounds/209578/ Cash register
https://freesound.org/people/Exchanger/sounds/415504/ Fun Facts Jingle
Thanks to The Tsunami Experiment for the theme music!!
Check them out here
SUPPORT US AT https://www.buzzsprout.com/1984311/supporters/new
MERCH STORE https://ol-dirty-basement.creator-spring.com
Find us at the following
Thanks for tuning in to the Old Dirty Basement. On this week's episode we're covering the Hinterkaifeck murders.
Speaker 2:The Gabriels, the Grubers, the Schlittenbauers and Muellers. How does it all come together?
Speaker 3:That was good. Yeah, I thought Schrobenhausen and Schrittenbauer or whatever Schlittenbauer were breweries.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:They're not.
Speaker 1:Could be in Germany for sure. Yeah, but we hope you're enjoying the podcast. If you are hit that five star rating on spotify on apple, leave us a written review and sit back, relax and enjoy the hinterkaifeck murders this is the old, dirty basement home to debauchery, madness, murder and mayhem.
Speaker 4:A terror-filled train ride deep into the depths of the devil's den.
Speaker 1:With a little bit of humor.
Speaker 2:History and copious consciousness. I'm your announcer, Shallow.
Speaker 4:Throat. Your hosts are Dave, matt and Zap. I love you, matthew McConaughey All right, all right, all right.
Speaker 3:Hey, this is Dave, matt and Zap, and welcome to the old, dirty basement.
Speaker 1:Where every week we cover a true crime murder or compelling story.
Speaker 3:So sit back, relax and comprehend. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Old Dirty Basement. I am Matt. With me always is Dave and Zap. What's going? On Long time, no see. Yeah, it's been a while.
Speaker 1:It's been a while. You guys have been lost boys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now easy thou shalt not lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll get to that later.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was in beautiful downtown Wilkes-Barre, pa. For those that don't know, that's up in Northeastern Pennsylvania, they have a Lion's Brewery. I don't know if you guys ever heard of Lion's Head beer. Oh God yeah.
Speaker 1:No, Lion's.
Speaker 2:Head. Actually the blue box. They have a blue and a red. The blue variety was awesome. It's a great cheap beer. It's a great cheap beer. It's the bush light of Lion's Head.
Speaker 3:It's great. They love it in northeastern PA. I think it's $2 for like a 16 ounce or something like that.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a good price, which isn't bad. That's not bad. You know, beer's big in Germany and, speaking of germany, I think we have something going on over there today yeah, well, something going on over there today that's been going on for a hundred years.
Speaker 2:It's the uh, the unsolved, yet to be solved, I should say, mysterious murders at hinter kaifek farm hinter kaifek.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we can solve it today well, let's see.
Speaker 2:I'm sure we can speculate the hell out of this for sure, yeah all right.
Speaker 3:Well, let's go back a bit shall we hold on before you continue? Zap dave, could you pass me a pen over there?
Speaker 1:I think I'm going to keep notes for the hinter feiken sure, if you've been thinking try that one out all
Speaker 2:right, we're good. Continue, yeah, all right. It's late march 1922 at the Hinterkaifeck farm in Weidhoffen, bavaria, and strange things are afoot. Andreas Gruber, the patriarch of his family and owner of the farm, and his widowed daughter, victoria Gabriel, see a man near the edge of the forest surrounding their farm. The man looks to both of them, then disappears into the woods. Later Andreas discovers footprints in the snow leading from the forest to the farm's machine room and finds the lock to the door of the machine room broken. He also discovers signs of an attempted break-in on the door to the feed room. Note the footsteps in the snow only lead to the machine room. There were no footsteps leading away. Oddly enough, andreas had recently come across a daily newspaper from Munich found on the property. Knowing no one on the farm had purchased it, he brushed off the oddity in thinking the postman delivered it to his house by mistake. But no one in the area subscribed to that newspaper. Meanwhile, victoria has been particularly on edge as of late. She's positive, she's being watched.
Speaker 1:She's also heard footsteps in the attic of the house yeah, that newspaper, they said, was from like a far away place.
Speaker 3:It wasn't even one that you would normally get to fairy tale land or something. Yeah, fairy tale like a far away place. It wasn't even one that you would normally get to fairytale land or something. Yeah, fairytale like a far away place can. Can you be more specific?
Speaker 2:like maybe new york times or something, I don't know, but it was something that you would not normally see in that area so I gotta give dave a little credit here and back day I should say I'll back dave up on what he's saying. So this stuff, so much of this. Let let's remember this was number one 100 years ago. Two this was in German, translated into English that you know. We're doing our research. I can speak I'm surely for all three of us that we don't speak German fluently, if at all. So it's much like any Bible, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're going to get loosely translated, and it'll read something to the effect of the newspaper was from far away, From far away.
Speaker 1:And hinter means behind, so behind Kaifek. So there was a little hamlet or little area called Kaifek and that's where this farm was like above or behind. I guess they said so that's what that hinter means. So that's one German word I guess we'll learn today.
Speaker 2:Look at that. Look what we learned today.
Speaker 3:Also a feed room they don't have. That's not like your kitchen or anything. I think that's where they would like house the animals.
Speaker 2:Food animal food, cool the feed room, not to be confused with a pantry or a cupboard.
Speaker 3:No, it's the feed room Cause I'm sure if somebody would Google that it'd be something completely different.
Speaker 2:Perform an internet search. Yes. So this chick's, she's hearing noises. This Victoria, she's hearing. You know toys in the attic, Right she got bats in her belfry.
Speaker 1:Was this Victoria? I can't remember. Was that the maid or the Victoria? Is the daughter the daughter, okay.
Speaker 2:So there's Andreas Gruber, the patriarch, and then his daughter, the only people we've heard of. So far is Victoria Her last name is Gabriel.
Speaker 1:There's more to the story and she's like 35, I think around the time.
Speaker 2:That might be right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that sounds about right.
Speaker 3:So what is he in his?
Speaker 2:mid-50s.
Speaker 1:He's 60. Early 60s, I think.
Speaker 2:And still strapping.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Strapping young lad. He's an able-bodied man, man, I mean, he's a farm owner.
Speaker 3:these guys, workers, yeah, work to the grave. Oh, absolutely, they can't stop, won't stop. He's kind of like uh, oh my god, I can't think of the guy on the simpsons. He always remember. He like takes his shirt off the farmer guy not groundskeeper willy groundskeeper willy. That's it.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, it could be sure yeah yeah, but I see what I can it's kind of where.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm thinking right now, so I have a picture to my head that's not some bad imagery right there, that's pretty good not like ned flanders. Like you know, when he takes his shirt off too, he's all ripped and buff. But stupid sexy flanders. Yeah, but the same thing with uh, yeah he's like groundskeeper willie is what what I have pictured in my like the vinamix guy.
Speaker 1:Remember that old dude, the juicer guy he was like in his 80s.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah yeah, is that the guy that was able to swim across the english channel like jack jack lane? That's it, jack jack lane, he would do like those.
Speaker 3:Um, he would have like little infomercials back in like the like 50s and stuff where he would um he can whatever like calisthenics, yeah calisthenics, go ahead and voodoo that or whatever.
Speaker 1:Wow voodoo it.
Speaker 2:yeah, there is, in fact, much more to unfold in this, because on march 31st because on March 31st, andreas and Victoria went to Schrobenhausen, the closest town, to do some shopping Schrobenhausen isn't that a brewery?
Speaker 3:Yes, it might be yeah.
Speaker 2:That's like Meisterbrausen.
Speaker 3:Yes, Meisterbrau, Does that mean good beer or something like that Could be yeah, I think it's House of the Schroben.
Speaker 1:Cool, oh the House of the Shroban Cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, the House of the Shroban. You might be right, that's a literal translation, right?
Speaker 3:there.
Speaker 2:All right. Both Andreas and Victoria mentioned the strange events at the farm to some of the locals, who advised them to alert the police. But Andreas is a proud man who knows how to take care of his own. He refuses the suggestion. Later that afternoon, the farm's long-awaited new maid, maria Baumgartner oh, there she is, there she is arrives at the farm.
Speaker 2:Day becomes evening and evening becomes night. Victoria, who's become quite adept at hearing noises in the night, hears a rustle in the stable and goes to investigate. After what seems to be an unusual amount of time away from the house, victoria's mother, cazilia Gruber that's Andreas' wife goes to the stable to check on Victoria. Time goes by, and Andreas is now wondering why his wife and daughter haven't returned to the house. He too makes his way to the stable. Victoria's daughter, kazelia gabriel, named obviously after her grandmother awakens in the night and searches for her mom, realizing her mom, grandmother and grandfather are not in the house.
Speaker 1:She too makes her way to the stable hmm wonder what's going on in the stable there sounds like a house party.
Speaker 3:It's funny, like you, you say all the noises in the night and everybody's like the noises in the night in 1922, like that's all you would pretty much hear that was, yeah, that was television back then. Yeah yeah, there was no tv. Yeah, there was no.
Speaker 1:I don't think they would have a radio, maybe 1922 right, yeah, they would have it, but like crickets and like outdoor noises, yeah, but you're always hearing things at night.
Speaker 3:That's not like I don't want to be like.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, I hear something out there I wonder if that was like a parlor game back then, where they would just sit around in the in the living room and everybody be silent and you just wait for the next creek or you know crackle or animal rustling or something, and it named that sound yeah, oh, that was a beaver by the pond yeah, yeah, they always say old houses make noises.
Speaker 1:But sure, dude was like because the house wasn't that old then, was it making noises then? Or is it just because houses are so old that they make noises? You know, I'm saying like an old house that was only to us, which is old now 100 years, was maybe 10 years old then yeah, but they're like placed together like a 10 year old house would still make noises no, they built them solid back then they built them solidly, and how but everything settles, though everything was built differently back then.
Speaker 2:Houses today don't breathe. Back then, I mean, there was no such thing as soffits and this, that and the other thing that closed off the house from squirrels or any kind of other shit that could climb up into the, into the roof. Everything was wide open, the house by wide, I mean, you know you were out of the, the rain and shit, but you had plenty of airflow moving. You had plenty of stuff to just move and shake with the, the changing of the seasons. Nowadays houses are just closed up, clammed up, the air is conditioned, moistures removed, all kinds of wild shit.
Speaker 1:I mean, houses are shit nowadays compared to what they used to say. Our houses now are like bitch-ass houses compared to those they are to be. I would say our houses now are like bitch ass houses compared to those. They are bitch ass houses Back then houses were like built.
Speaker 2:I bet Andreas built that house with his two bare hands. He did.
Speaker 3:But that's what it would make the noise because of, like the expanding and the contracting and all that other stuff I know he did.
Speaker 1:It's written in it's translated to I built this freaking house. I think it was in a Rammstein song.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's right, du hast mich zu ver.
Speaker 2:All right, let's not forget that March 31st 1922 was a Friday. I ain't got shit to do, ain't got no job, ain't got no car to get to my job.
Speaker 3:I'm broke because I ain't got no job to buy a car to get to my job.
Speaker 2:The next day, April 1st, two coffee merchants, Hans and Edward Sharovsky, arrive as usual to take an order.
Speaker 3:So it's two Polish dudes just jumped into the mix, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, russian, I'm thinking, maybe Russian yeah. Sneaky fucking Russians, yeah. Strangely, no one answered the door. Two days later, april 2nd, the locals took notice to the grubers and gabriel's being absent from sunday church service.
Speaker 4:that's a no-no yeah that's everybody in the community is like what's freaking sunday where are you at?
Speaker 2:that's correct yeah, they're going to hell. Yeah, you better all all be crippled or got the worst flu ever.
Speaker 3:Right, even then they'll drag your ass to church, true.
Speaker 2:April 3rd and April 4th, which were a Monday and Tuesday, come and go. Little Kazelia Gabriel was marked as absent from school both days with no excuse provided by her mother.
Speaker 3:Was that a thing back then? Shit, yeah, like an excuse. Yeah, you'd have to have like a note.
Speaker 2:I know from your doctor I mean, look if you, if you were absent from school, didn't you have to give notes when you were a kid?
Speaker 3:yeah, or your parents would call in or whatever, I guess. Yeah, they were like, hey, your kid got to be at school. I didn't know it was such a big thing because they were probably at the forum working, you know let's not forget, let's keep in mind, these are are extremely, extremely small towns.
Speaker 2:Everybody knows everybody. So things are going to go awry when something is out of consistency, out of regularity. So when a girl is missing for two, doesn't show up to school for two days and nobody's seen the parents at church, and I say the mother and the grandparents at church, people are going to start to wonder.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I went back to the church thing. You're right, Everybody's like where are they?
Speaker 1:at everybody talks, everybody knows everybody what if you had a note, a note if you missed church for the priest. You know what I mean. They take it seriously. Do I have to go to confession?
Speaker 2:bring me the note. Yes, also on april 4th, a local mechanic, albert hoffner, went to the farm in the morning to perform some repairs on an engine. Despite persistent knocks at the door, again no one answered. Word of the Gruber and Gabriel disappearance made its way to the town's mayor, lorenz Schlittenbauer. Lorenz dispatches his son and stepson, johann and Josef, to the farm to attempt to make contact. Like others before them, they knocked on the door to the house, walked around the house and returned with no news. Well, if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. Lorenz enlists the help of his two neighbors, michael Pohl and Jakob Siegel, to investigate his two neighbors, michael Pohl and Jakob Siegel, to investigate. The three, along with Johan and Josef, make their way to the Hinterkaifeck farm. So everybody's looking for the Kaifecks yeah, hinterkaifecks, I'm sorry the Gabriels and the Grubers.
Speaker 1:And I always trip off the jobs that don't exist anymore, like coffee merchants. Is that still a thing? Sure, door to door and like-. Selling coffee yeah anymore like coffee merchants. Is that still a thing? Sure, door-to-door and like selling coffee, I mean so that wasn't like look, understand, that's.
Speaker 2:That's still to this day. It's an import export biz. No, absolutely, but it is. But yeah, back then there was no such thing as warehouses, distributors, supermarkets right no costco or anything, correct?
Speaker 3:so you're a guy, a wagon, a horse well, the cool thing is door-to-door.
Speaker 1:Back then everybody's specialized. You know I'm saying like I deal in coffee, so you're gonna know your shit that's right, you're not trying to look, man, you want that tea.
Speaker 2:You got the wrong guy. I'm not the tea guy. I am not the tea man. Don't confuse me with that son of a bitch what's the tea man trying to make sausage?
Speaker 3:for what was he thinking decaf? No, I just got straight coffee. I don't think there was decaf, nope.
Speaker 1:They wouldn't even ask for that. That reminds me of a joke by Gary Goldman. He's a comic. He's like real tall.
Speaker 2:Was that Arnold Drummond from Different Strokes?
Speaker 1:Was that his name, gary?
Speaker 2:Coleman.
Speaker 1:Now with a G Goldman. But no, his parents were real tall. I'm sorry he was real tall. His parents were real short and people always make a joke like, well, how tall was the milkman? And you say, oh yeah, that's what my mom does. She sleeps with guys whose jobs no longer exist she had a thing with the cobbler, uh she nice she was, you know, named all these different things that, like these jobs, no longer exist, you know, but yeah, coffee merchant coffee merchant still in it and, like you said, I'm sure they're on a national scale now or international scale well.
Speaker 2:So I'm thinking, I'm just thinking back in the day, when I hear of two coffee merchants, the, the coffee brothers, whatever. So these guys got a horse and a wagon and they walk around and they take orders and they're also delivering the same day. Because you don't want to. I mean that's inefficient, like the. The most, the most expensive thing in the distribution business is an empty truck. You know, know, driving back and forth, you're just wasting time. So I got to believe you know they're walking around with coffee in the back of this wagon taking orders and then every so often they go to. This is Germany, which is landlocked, it's not touching an ocean. They got to be going someplace to pick up this coffee from somebody else that's getting it from the ocean. Colombia, yeah, to pick up this coffee from somebody else.
Speaker 2:It's getting it from the ocean, colombia, venezuela, wherever the hell they grow coffee anymore.
Speaker 1:So those guys, probably when they were done, they were like this ain't going to work out. So I know, let's become movie merchants.
Speaker 2:Yes that thought had crossed my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wonder if that worked out it might have.
Speaker 2:I mean, they were just starting movies back then long before talkies, so these guys were the first Starbucks Pretty much In Germany. Yeah, for sure, for sure, All right. So the coffee movie merchants failed. Lorenz is taking it into his own hands now grabs his two neighbors and go.
Speaker 3:All right, do you guys remember movie merchants?
Speaker 1:Sure, that's what I was talking about the video store. I don't think it lasted.
Speaker 3:That was in James Way.
Speaker 2:Plaza. That was in James Way Plaza. There was one in James Way Plaza. There was also one on Derry Street.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were all over the place.
Speaker 3:Do you think those movie stores were pissed because Blockbuster was Blockbuster and they were like damn, we got to try this. They jumped on it quick and they started. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Right, but it was too late. They were like the generic.
Speaker 3:Blockbuster. That's what happens, but they would give you like a three night rental instead of like a two night. Mm, hmm. Okay.
Speaker 2:The three men, lorenz, michael and Jakob, along with the two boys, johan and Yosef, return to Hinterkaifeck farm. The three men find the barn door open with the lock having been broken. They enter the barn and leave the two boys outside to wait. Inside, the men find the bodies of Victoria Gabriel, cazilia Gruber, andreas Gruber and Cazilia Gabriel, all having been murdered by blows to the head with a matic. Victoria, the first victim, had been struck nine times, leaving her skull all but crushed what is a matic?
Speaker 3:like a, like a large hammer? No, uh, what is a matic?
Speaker 1:like a pickaxe type thing.
Speaker 2:So think of all. Right, so everybody in your mind think of a, an axe, right? So that axe has a from a matic's perspective. Now think of that. With the, it has a thinner blade. That is to say, if you're holding the axe like the, the width of the blade not the thickness of the blade, but the width of it, like top to bottom of the blade, that is a, a thinner width on the back of that. Now, on the other side of the, the handle is the same exact same implement, but twisted 90 degrees. So you have an ax that goes vertically and then you have an ax that goes horizontally.
Speaker 3:It's like a, like a farm tool. Was it made for?
Speaker 2:100%, so you can chop wood with that. You can, you can. I'm sorry. You can hack away at wood with it as in like carve or hone wood.
Speaker 3:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Can chop trees down down, you can chop roots out.
Speaker 3:I mean it's like, okay, it's a good multi-tool, multitask.
Speaker 1:I, in fact, own one awesome there was an interesting thing on this actual murder weapon, then we'll get to it at the end. Yep, this one was maybe a little different. A little different, we'll see.
Speaker 2:The investigation continues to the Gruber house. Though the front door was locked, lorenz was in possession of a key, as was commonplace for neighbors to have spare keys In the house. The body of the recently arrived maid is found, also having been murdered. Been murdered and also found murdered was joseph gabriel, victoria's son and little brother to kazelia, who was just two and a half years old at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it screwed up it's messed up.
Speaker 2:Man, that's something to walk in on.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean yeah I just couldn't imagine. But always remember that I do know one thing that they said that now this is from the others that were there that that lorenz was kind of like um, not shocked by the like, like you know the scene there, so I don't know if that'll come in later on, you know, it does come in, but uh, oh, you gonna learn, dave you gonna learn.
Speaker 1:I will say that I mean, everybody handles that type situation differently. So to speculate that, you know, just because of his reaction could have meant anything, I don't know. But I know that. You know, in certain scenarios people act differently. Not everybody's going to freak out and be like oh, my God you know what I mean. He was very calm and like yeah.
Speaker 2:So we'll see, we shall see. I have my own speculations on this, but I already spoiler. I've already composed and know all of this.
Speaker 3:so we'll see. This has nothing to do with the actual story, but these names, like I'm laughing in my head because it sounds like if they were doing like a German, like making of the band, like they'd be like you know, the Schlittenbauer 3. That's right. Lorenz, michael and Jakob.
Speaker 1:We're looking for Josef. You know we get some downloads in Germany. We love our German fans. They're probably very familiar with this story and the names are probably like Matt and Zap over there.
Speaker 2:Well Zap.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many Zaps there are out there.
Speaker 2:We'll say John, there's got to be Johns.
Speaker 3:Hohenz or Josef.
Speaker 2:It's in the Bible. It's got to be there.
Speaker 3:Thank you, our german brethren. Yeah, volkswagens are awesome hail hydra now, that was a marvel reference.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay although the red skull was with the germans at first, okay. Well, the investigations into the crimes was thorough. These uncovered some interesting goings-on. Forensics deduced that kazelia gabriel that's the one grandchild had been alive for several hours after she'd been struck. The damage to her skull prompted her to pull her hair out while she died, yeah, presumably believing the hair on her head had been the source of the pain. That's horrible. Yeah, can you dig that Like? This girl's head is hurting because she just got struck with a goddamn matic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're trying to get the pain out, correct?
Speaker 2:That's just messed up. Let's see. It appeared as though the perpetrator, or perpetrators, spent a few days at the farm after the murders had been committed, as the cattle had all been fed and leftovers of recently cooked meals remained. Robbery was a motive that was initially considered, but this was swiftly dismissed when a large amount of money had been found at the house. The investigation and interrogations went on for nearly a year. No definitive suspect could be found and no case could be made. The buildings on the property were torn down in February and March 1923. During the demolition, the well-hidden matic was unearthed, as was a rusty pocket knife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they said there were well over 100 suspects.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, they're going to go, anybody?
Speaker 3:in yeah, again, they're going to go Anybody in the town?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're basically just look, we don't know what the hell happened here. We're just going to question everybody and hope nobody's lying to us.
Speaker 1:And as far as the money goes, there was money that was left there, but they did say that there was money taken. I guess the maid it was the maid or Victoria One of them took out a sizable amount of money out of the bank and that's the only way they knew that this cash would have been on hand there and it was missing. There was cash missing but a lot of cash left alone, as well as jewelry that was there, but the jewelry, they said, was like peasant jewelry, like not really worth anything.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of like you don't need your peasant jewelry Like moissanites not real diamonds.
Speaker 1:Right, just like. Costume jewelry Stuff, that yeah, exactly Like I'm not going to bother. Or the other thing I thought in my head was maybe taking things like that that could be traced back Like, say, you pawn it or something Sure.
Speaker 2:Again, small town. They're going to say, hey, man, isn't that? Or Andreas Gruber's wristwatch.
Speaker 1:Right, you couldn't trace cash. Correct Cash is king Marks, as it were. Marks.
Speaker 3:But even then for robberies everybody pretty much had the same shit, except for money, like you said. That'd be the only thing we're worthy of robbing, that's true, everybody had Maddox, everybody had cows, everybody had a farm, horses, farms chickens.
Speaker 2:Everybody had the same shit.
Speaker 3:Everybody probably smelled the same right like old cabbage yeah, right, yeah, they only bathed in the pond like once a week, yep you could have stole a case of uh, what was that schroben bousen? Or what was that beer schlappenheimer, schlappenheimer schlappenheimer, schittenbauer, schlitten, schrobenhausen, lowenbrow, lion's head, lion's head, yeah white translated yeah, white line, but uh, yeah, so it's just crazy, they couldn't solve this, is it?
Speaker 1:no, I mean I, I just, I don't know. It just seems like, uh, I don't know, I just don't see how is that?
Speaker 3:like like uh, that was saying like let's go and ask everybody can we see your matic please? Yes, I have one right here in the kitchen well, the number one thing for me.
Speaker 1:That kind of makes me like what the hell? Like they had fingerprint technology at this time sure did and did not take fingerprints or use any of that. That would have probably solved it right there. How? Because I could have took fingerprints from the if it would have been a everybody knows everybody everybody's in and out of everybody's house yeah somebody borrowed the matic like twice last week if there's a bloody, bloody fingerprint, you're not there unless the murder was going you gotta ask oj about that although, yeah, he, yeah if it doesn't fit, but he was there.
Speaker 1:There were there during the aftermath of the murder, people in the town and shit, so we'll get to that part, I guess. But yeah, I just think like I'm surprised they didn't solve it well, like right away.
Speaker 3:Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:like no, just like over time. You know what I mean. But I think they screwed up as far as the murder scene and everything else it was uh, which we'll get into that we will.
Speaker 2:I mean, the murder scene was horrific, just from four bodies in the barn, two bodies in the house. One of them was a two and a half year old kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I don't know, I don't know. I think I know who it is, but I think I know who it is too.
Speaker 2:So I have a list of five possible suspects that, yeah, that I had come across, and I'm going to go in order of least to most likely in my humble opinion Okay, in my opinion, let's say the least likely the Gump brothers. Now, these are two brothers who'd been experienced in genocide in the region due to their involvement in the Fry Corps Oberland, that's a militia organized, a militia organization known to have been a part of genocidal acts against Polish and communist insurgents. I think they just said oh, it might be one of the Gump brothers, because those guys are just hired killers. Right, that's all they do. They know how to kill. Like you got coffee merchants and then you got killers, these guys kill yeah, it's true, you got to get the gump brothers on that yeah, right, you need.
Speaker 2:You need some killing done. Call the gump brothers what about?
Speaker 1:I was waiting for it, matt. What for us? I? Wasn't gonna do it okay, all right it crossed my mind jenny oh, jesus.
Speaker 2:Next, on my least likelihood, I have Anton and Carl Bickler. Now, these were two farmhands who knew the layout of the farm very well. Anton in particular was friendly with the dog who otherwise barked at everyone else. Also, anton held a grudge with the Gruber family, citing his disgust for the rumors of incest and his envy for their wealth. So this is just. These are two guys.
Speaker 3:These guys as suspects were basically they're just hired hands that go around town. Yeah, People need help you know with the crops or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's like that angry employee thing Like they, they wanted more. Or again, like they're envious of the. They're just workers. They wish that they had the wealth that their, their people employers had, and these people were wealthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, they had money. There was some quid there, for sure.
Speaker 3:So, anton and Carl, they just wanted like a, like a real house. They're living in some shanty.
Speaker 2:Yep with the cows. Yeah, that's real messed up, man damn got no home, no housing yeah it's a damn shame when folks be thrown away. Perfectly white boy like that next on my list of least likely. But we're getting.
Speaker 4:We're getting closer right when it's likely likelihood is getting closer edging, edging.
Speaker 2:There's a fella named paul mueller, mueller, mueller. Yeah, now, this was a german drifter who'd made his way to the united states and killed other families in the united states in the same fashion, like this is again. Massachusetts was, I think, the most notorious, where he killed a family of four, maybe five or six people on a farm using a matic, like, using whatever, like. The crime scene was almost mirrored.
Speaker 1:This did they have like oh, go ahead, sorry, go ahead, matt no, I just said, did they have like an interpol back then?
Speaker 3:like were there?
Speaker 2:people looking for this guy. Not by then they didn't have, they barely had telephones yeah, I didn't know like.
Speaker 3:They're like we, we got to get joey swift on this case, right, right, he's like.
Speaker 2:I'm heading over to germany, so this guy this cat left the united states and returned to germany at some point in 1912. This is after the united states police and press began to notice patterns in the crime scenes. So it's like we've done. How many countless serial killers, where patterns start to, to show themselves right yeah, there was a book called the man from the train and uh, it was all about this, this guy and his murders and all the murders that he committed.
Speaker 1:I think there was only a few that he actually got prosecuted for and, uh, it was the same mo. He would go in, murder everybody with an axe and then jump on a train, not steal anything and just roll, but he would murder. The one thing that was kind of wild with this at the time, and even to this day, is usually children don't get killed. I mean, for the most part, right, um, you know they're usually it's usually a sexually driven or money driven or whatever, and usually don't kill like a whole family, unless it's like a crime of passion or like you know this and that. But this guy, this man from the train, was just one of those rare individuals that would kill everything and anybody, yeah, yeah, except the animals well, yeah well, that's nice right, and I wouldn't kill animals except the squirrels.
Speaker 2:I hate the goddamn squirrels.
Speaker 3:But davis is sort of like a retaliation or something like so deep against that family would be the only way that you would do something like that maybe which gets us to our final two contestants. Come on down.
Speaker 2:Contestant? Second, most likely, in my humble opinion, carl Gabriel. Oh, there's that last name again. Well, who the hell's Carl? Oh, hell, no, who's that bitch? Carl Gabriel is the presumed dead husband of Victoria, who died in World War I, yet his body had never been recovered. Yosef let's not forget Yosef the dead toddler and son of Victoria, was born in 1919. But Carl had been reported as killed in action back in 1914.
Speaker 2:She was getting that extra loving, widely speculated that Yosef was the product of incest between Andreas Gruber, the father, and Victoria, his daughter, as both had been charged with incest in the village courts.
Speaker 3:That was like a thing like we charge you with incest. No more Hands off, even though you're living in the same house.
Speaker 2:Think of like the Salem witch trials right Back in the 1800s. Witch you, salem witch trials right back in the 1800s. Which you're a witch? They hung these broads. So in this case, this is just the local tribunal saying yep, incest. We heard you two were banging like victoria. How did you get pregnant? Yeah, the maid turned them in which, so fun fact, before all of this went down, there was a maid that quit and left this farm. What, six months earlier, almost a year, six months, six months earlier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she had walked in on him Slapping it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was in the barn or whatever. No razors.
Speaker 1:And then she went to authorities and then he did a year and she did either. Victoria actually did either a year or a month as well.
Speaker 2:For incest.
Speaker 1:Incest. Well for incest, incest. But then victoria, I guess, had this, uh schlittenbauer and said hey, will you just say, like you're the father of the kid here, like and pay the child support, so this will go away when you say schlittenbauer, certainly you must be referring to lorenz schlittenbauer.
Speaker 2:Schlittenbauer, right, he was the mayor of the little commune at the time, right right, right so like a maury povitt show.
Speaker 2:Like lorenz, you are the father this is almost like what it turned into, yeah well, and that I'm glad you mentioned lorenz schlittenbauer, because the mayor, lorenz schlittenbauer, is my number one suspect. He too is believed to have been joseph's potential father. When he and the two neighbors went to investigate the scene this is as David had mentioned he broke away and made his way into the house alone, using his key to enter. Now, look, I get it, neighbors have keys. Look, my neighbors have keys to my house. I get that.
Speaker 3:That's a thing I don't think the locks were too hard to get into.
Speaker 2:Not a big deal, right too hard to get into, not a big deal, right? Everybody had the same goddamn key. Yeah, it's the same lock. Oh, there was the right. Behind the coffee brothers was the locksmith and everybody had the same key yeah um, it is speculated that he, lorenz, murdered the family because victoria might have been demanding financial support from him for yosef there it is in exchange for keeping her silence, that he, in fact, was the father yeah, so that was the whole thing.
Speaker 1:I think is that um it has everything to do with blackmail and yeah and the whole idea of incest and if he really was in love with her, which that's what they said, like he really fancied her. Yeah, he was upset that the father he approached the father to marry her. So schlittenbauer was a widower and his wife had died within two weeks. He was messing around with the Victoria.
Speaker 2:Slapping it with Victoria, victoria's secret.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and he wanted to marry her. But the father was like no, no, I won't allow it, because he was you know messing around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, that's my little playground up in there.
Speaker 1:But I had another theory. Through my little playground up in there, but I had another theory. Through her forest, I had another theory. So there was no shaving, no shaving, absolutely not no, manscaping no no so even their nipples were hairy we know the killer was in the house in the attic, probably crawling around up in the attic through the duct work there were some toys in duct work.
Speaker 2:I don't know if they had ducts, but I know that they. I know that for damn sure victoria had.
Speaker 3:The hvac company was involved so victoria wasn't.
Speaker 2:Look, I, I know, I I just brushed over at the beginning of the story here, but victoria was like scared out of her mind. In fact, at one point she ran out of the house. She was so scared by that shit. She ran out of the house and they found her, you know, cowering in the woods so it's the gr, and there's somebody above them in the ductwork crawling around.
Speaker 1:I think it was John McClane. That's where I was going with this. That was my theory on it. I was thinking the whole time. Every time we're talking about Gruber, I'm thinking of Hans Gruber.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I'm surprised there was no Hans mentioned in this.
Speaker 3:No, hans Gruber's Dracula Right my favorite.
Speaker 1:No, but honestly, Zab, I'm with you on this. I would think if I had to pick one, it would be because there's motive there, schlittenbauer, but there are theories that there were more than one perpetrator.
Speaker 3:I don't think the mayor did it himself. I don't think he had the balls to do it. To murder some people like that you need there gotta be other people involved.
Speaker 2:Does there? Because, look so, this guy, this, no, look, we're just talking here. So this cat had every reason assuming let's assume for this circumstance that he in fact was the father and she's blackmailing him for money, or she's going to let it out that, hey man, me and the old mayor here we're slapping it. And you know, that's certainly not allowed. You can't have sex out a wedlock, that's, that's a hanging offense.
Speaker 2:Like you might as well be a witch right so blackmailing this guy, give me money or I'm gonna let everybody know that you know you and I were doing this. I mean, when it comes to, this is the mayor, so this is his popularity, this is his everything, his reputation and his money, shit. Yeah, I mean look with. Yeah, I'm gonna go kill him he has motive.
Speaker 1:None of these other really had motive. I mean carl gabriel, if he was really alive, would be the other one.
Speaker 2:So they're definitely the my. That's not even second plate, that's almost tied with first, if in fact he did not die in the war and he just came back. So there's speculation that he didn't. They because they didn't find his body. One he was just, you know, awol. He didn't want to fight anymore. Two he made his way to the soviet union yeah, because there was a?
Speaker 1:uh, there were some german pows from world war ii that got released back to germany and they said they were under the control of a russian soldier named carl, who spoke of the hinderkaif murders and said he committed them and this and that. So there were people that were saying the theory is that carl, you know, didn't die in the war, went over the russian side, ended up fighting with the russians and was a uh, high-ranking russian soldier or whatever that was, had these pows and was like bragging about the murder well, that's just a story you can tell to make you sound like a real badass too.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's something that he heard this story from someone or knew him.
Speaker 2:It's true. It's like when you go to prison how many people did you kill? 13. Right, right right.
Speaker 1:Here's some cool facts, though, from like stuff surrounding the days that was there before left because she said it was haunted. Did you know that back then, when a maid or like a, a somebody working for somebody, not even just a maid their code for like a bad employer was to say the place was haunted when they quit? Oh, so if you if you were working for somebody and it's like a bad job but you don't want to like, throw yourself on you know, it was like it was like another job.
Speaker 1:Right job, you know right, yeah, it was like a little known, not little known, but amongst those people like say it's haunted and then we'll know. Yeah, like stay away. Um, it's interesting. There was a 15 year old boy uh, this is like a few years earlier. He was like a runaway and he accessed that attic and hinder kind of, or at hinter kaifek, and lived up there for like a few days. I guess he stole some ham and bread and stuff, but he had hit out there a couple days. So like I don't know how it must've been like easy as hell to get up in these attics and kind of hide out.
Speaker 2:So there that's. So that was the thing. So for sure to bring everybody back to what Dave had mentioned just there. I mean, let's not forget that in the investigation they did in fact notice that leftovers and recently cooked meals like remained, and it's essentially meat is still warm, or the stove is still warm or something's still going. A half-eaten plate of meat and bread is still sitting there.
Speaker 1:Well, there was human excrement in there too, so somebody was squatting. You know what I'm saying. What was that?
Speaker 3:Didn't you touch on that? Wasn't there a movie about that, like turtling or something? Frogging, Frogging yeah frogging is a thing. Yeah, this guy was the original frogger.
Speaker 1:We talked about frogging. Yeah, P-H-R-O-G-G-I-N-G, Look it up. Frogging like people see how long they can hang out in a house.
Speaker 2:So you're saying it could be, in fact, circumstantial that these murders happen and let's say, the murderers kill and run away and then, at the time, there's this, this guy shows up and hey, house is wide open, all I gotta look, they got food here, shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna hang out for a little bit well, actually the 15 year old was a few years earlier that it happened. It was like the family was aware of it, like, oh, they caught the kid then, I guess, or something. And he was like, oh, my apologies. I thought this was at the same time no, but it does set that it could have happened.
Speaker 2:It happened once. It could happen again.
Speaker 1:Because they said that around this time there was a lot of grift, like people, kind of like Rambo, people from the war, people that are walking around in these remote areas with nowhere to go and nothing to do and they're looking for shelter and they would sneak into these houses or barns or, you know, farmhouses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the barns were usually cozy.
Speaker 1:Right. So it wasn't unheard of and actually there were murders and things similar to this that happened in the surrounding areas. It's not really well known, people don't usually talk about it as much around this, but there was other cases similar to this where families got murdered in a similar fashion. So it could have been a serial killer type person that did this and it was just their mo. I mean, there's so many theories and there's so much shit out here on this case.
Speaker 3:it's so hard to tell what's for real and what's not serial killers paul mueller that might have been the one, yeah but it could have been like people coming in, like you said, these grifters and stuff. Maybe their family had some money, they needed a place. They were well, that's a nice place on the hill, but they got like a shit ton of kids and family living there. Right. So if they take them out, then the house might be up for sale. Then they can buy it.
Speaker 1:So that Schlittenbauer was a friend of the family. He was over there and knew he was on the property, knew the property. The dog was very aggressive to strangers.
Speaker 2:Except Anton. What rock rockamora, anton? Uh, bickler, the gump brothers too, weren't they cool with the dog, or who?
Speaker 1:oh no, bickler was one of the farmhands he got he was friendly with the dog but in other words, the dog wouldn't put up with, you know, like a stranger coming in there, because the dog was actually left out, fed, taken care of during all the like the days after the murder, as were the animals.
Speaker 1:So, whoever, whoever did this, stuck around and took care of the farm animals, the, the dog included, and so that's something to think about. Like the dog is just not going to let some stranger walk up and take him off the leash. Roar, yeah, scooby, yeah, what was the other thing? Oh, the Munich Police Department was the closest police department, 45 miles away. Okay, so by the time they reached the crime scene, like we talked about, it was 10 years later it was a long time and this car is of travel.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry this lorenz schittenbauer had people from the town coming in walking through the crimes oh yeah showing them around like, oh you know, moving bodies, and that's with a lot of people. There were accounts that he was very nonchalant about it. Yep, but that might just be how he handles shit but life went on back.
Speaker 3:Then too, it'd be like, wow, this sucks. We gotta you know, we gotta milk the cows in about 20 minutes. So, everybody, let's, let's clean this up and get back to work here's one that got me too.
Speaker 1:uh, there was a calendar hanging in the kitchen, right, yeah, and uh, the day after the murder that I'm sorry, yeah, would, it would have switched in the next month they ripped that page off. Oh, so that would have been like there were people that actually say that the there's these theories out there that the father killed them all and that somebody walked in, saw what he did and then killed him. Oh so, but who would have ripped the calendar?
Speaker 3:the day off.
Speaker 1:Makes no sense yeah.
Speaker 2:There's an, there's an ocd. Not even an ocd, there's just a matter of continuance or the regularity, consistency in people's minds that look, I don't care where I am, I'm gonna mark off days on the calendar. That's what I do. I wake up every morning. Oh well, that day's over x and I don't care where I am, I'm just gonna x on on calendar right, yeah, so that could have been it, I don't know.
Speaker 1:And one last thing I have, and I thought this is pretty wild and maybe you guys may I'm Zapp, I'm sure you came across this. They beheaded them after you know, took the heads off and sent them to a clairvoyant the skulls for a reading.
Speaker 2:So I thought that afterwards I did read they certainly took the heads off. I definitely saw that they took the heads off, but I I thought that they had sent it to Munich for forensics.
Speaker 1:Well, they did.
Speaker 2:Which is what discovered that? Oh, the implement that did this. This is a MADIC Right. No doubt, this is a MADIC.
Speaker 1:Right. So I went to Munich. They did their thing. They didn't Like we don't know what to do here.
Speaker 1:So at the time there's clairvoyants that they you know they shipped them these skulls and they're looking to see if they could get anything. The only thing they got out of it was that one of them said there was definitely two perpetrators and they couldn't really give them any like solid information. But those skulls since have been lost during World War II. A lot of the evidence from this case was lost during World War II. The bodies of the six were all buried together. So the maid who was there for what 24 hours is now buried with his family.
Speaker 2:Wow, which I think is pretty wild. Well, good for her, because otherwise I promise you she wouldn't have been buried. So that maid, that particular maid that was there for one day, she was cripping the boogie Like she had some. She was, let's say, on the lower end of the intelligence quotient spectrum, right, she also had like a club foot, short leg, walked with a limp. She sounds very attractive. You know, funky ass Helga, whatever her name was, let me find it here. The maid.
Speaker 1:Maria.
Speaker 2:Thank you, fraulein Maria.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Fraulein Maria shows up. Yeah, she didn't have a dime to her name. Hell, she'd been out of work for months earlier.
Speaker 1:So she probably went in on getting buried.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they would have just thrown her in the river.
Speaker 1:She's in the middle of a mall. Did you guys know and maybe you guys know this, and if not, one of our German listeners, please reach out and let me know if this is true that they recycle graves after like 30 years? That's awesome. So you're buried, say you get buried, they'll dig you up, like after 30 years then where do they put save the space?
Speaker 2:I guess they cremate you oh, okay, like to save space, that's messed up as you think about it.
Speaker 1:I think about that all the time like when you get, you know you have so many people. If you bury everybody eventually, aren't you going to run out of?
Speaker 2:if it were me? That's so what you're saying makes sense. It's just. It just so happens that there is such a vast expanse of dirt still on this planet that could otherwise be used for grave. Uh, there is, I don't know. My solution would be to just dig the hole deeper. Maybe six feet isn't deep enough so go down like 18 feet and stack them yeah they do that in louisiana, so the so the first 30 years goes to the guy that's 18 feet down. The next 30 years goes to somebody who's 15 feet. Then then, 12, then nine, then six.
Speaker 2:You can get like you could recycle that grave six times.
Speaker 3:Isn't that Shurvec, Isn't he looking for like? Isn't the worst waste of prime real estate?
Speaker 1:Yes, so you want to be like the Jeffersons of graves and moving on up to the top. I want to be under all that shit. But yeah, I don't know if that's true or not. I heard that on a podcast actually about this and I was like man, that's an interesting tidbit. If this is true, that's the thing.
Speaker 3:There's so much bullshit out there on these stories Like who knows you know what I mean, it's so old and you don't even know In another country.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we were talking earlier about, the murder weapon. So you said it's like a?
Speaker 3:um, it's an axe on one side it's the the one side it's like a flat axe and the back of it for like like a hoe.
Speaker 1:The back of it is that same axe, head just turned, uh, horizontally supposedly they said that, and there again who knows if this is true or not that the wrens I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, the wrens had a specific one that he his had a nail on the one end that he would use to stun, like the pigs before he would accident.
Speaker 1:And that particular side of it was used on all of the murders except his. So they were saying like maybe he murdered because he would, like I guess it was a you had to have, like it's not something you could pick up and use and know how to use. You gotta like work with it, I guess had to have.
Speaker 2:It's not something you can pick up and use and know how to use. You got to work with it, I guess, to kill. Is it possible to tie back to one of your theories earlier? Andreas killed everybody. Lorenz killed Andreas.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's who it was. It was Andreas' weapon and he would have known how to use it that way With the pig stunner. Because it was customized, you know what I'm saying he had it like for him Because they had time on their hands back then.
Speaker 2:Right. So not Lorenz the mayor, You're saying the father Andreas.
Speaker 1:Andreas, yes, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:So Andreas, the father, used his own custom made, you know matic to kill everybody else, but then somebody killed him with the mat like walked on, walked in on.
Speaker 1:It was like you motherfucking you know right, I'm gonna and then took him out, and then you know who's to say who's to?
Speaker 3:say interesting, even though it's an unsolved mystery to this day.
Speaker 2:It could be, you know.
Speaker 1:So it could be that andreas did the killings and then lorenz, the mayor, showed up and said what the hell man I know in 2007, modern forensic team went over everything like there was 150 pages of research they did on this and narrowed it down to one person that they think it absolutely has to be.
Speaker 1:They won't release the name because of uh, they want to incriminate his family, the, the descendants exactly, since it's, uh, you know, there's surviving members and and they don't want to put it out there because they can't really 100 prove it. It's just based on what they gathered, so I don't know I was amazed to find the again.
Speaker 2:So much of it in german in fact a lot, the vast majority of this in german, but man, this is a big deal it's huge over there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said, it's a well-known. I mean I I think it's uh little known over here, like it's gaining some traction now with social media and stuff. People put out little five minute tick tocks about it.
Speaker 2:I didn't know a damn thing about that. So you brought it up. I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 3:It's kind of like what over there, like the Manson murder, still something like that Like yeah, it's like you know.
Speaker 1:They said it's the most gruesome unsolved murder in german history.
Speaker 1:So, um, it was just one of those ones where, I think, because of the kids being involved and yeah, it was just kind of like it seemed like a sense senseless act. But um, that's where I first saw it was on like, um, like a little tiktok video. I did. I that was a few years ago. I listened to a podcast on it a few years ago and then, um, obviously, you know, getting ready for this, I listened to a lot more stuff, watched a documentary, different things, and a lot of the stuff. There was a lot of things that were the same in all of the research that I've listened to or watched or read, but a lot of things that are different, people throwing their own little and who knows what parts of those are true or made up or you know along the way. But, yeah, I picked this one. I thought it was interesting, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I know it's 100 years old, but I thought it was pretty it's wild.
Speaker 2:It's still still. The mystery still is out there. I like going back in time to to determine, like matt had aptly pointed out, like what, what the hell kind of forensics did they have back then? I mean, I I was surprised to find that they even had the ability or the knowledge to to utilize fingerprinting but, but again, this is 100 years ago. 100 years ago to me might as well be 1,000 years ago.
Speaker 2:I just don't have a perspective on that. I don't know how swiftly or slowly technology would have evolved between X and Y.
Speaker 3:I think the fingerprinting, like you were saying. I think if they do see because people always had dirty hands back then you know what I mean. So if there was something like a smudge or they could probably take a fingerprint of that thumb and from people they might think of it as a suspect and look into it. That's probably what, like all the technology they had for that.
Speaker 1:And just be like how are you there? Why?
Speaker 3:were you there how? And then somebody gets on the stand there and they get all crazy and start singing, whether singing like a jailbird or whatever they call it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sing like a canary. Canary Is that what it is? Yeah, singing, but yeah, zad. Thanks for writing that up and researching it. Matt, thank you.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for the memories. No thanks for bringing this to our attention. Man, this was and remains compelling. I feel compelled.
Speaker 1:For sure, compelling stories. You guys got anything else in closing.
Speaker 2:I got nothing Me either. Hey guys, can you wrap it up?
Speaker 1:Oh I knew that was coming.
Speaker 2:I'm glad we got that in time there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just in time, but we'll definitely be back next week with a actually next week will be a vintage cinema review. I think we're doing Lost Boys, which I referenced in the beginning. Little tease, so definitely tune in for that. Don't forget to find us on Facebook and Instagram at Old Dirty Basement and TikTok at Old Dirty Basement Podcast. I guess that's it for now, so we'll catch you where.
Speaker 2:On the flip side If we don't see you sooner, we'll see you later. Peace.
Speaker 3:Thanks for hanging out in the Old Dirty Basement. If you dig our theme music, like we do, check out the Tsunami Experiment Find them on Facebook. Their music is available streaming on Spotify and Apple and where great music is available.
Speaker 1:You can find us at Old Dirty Basement on Facebook and Instagram and at Old Dirty Basement Podcast on TikTok. Peace. We outie 5,000. You.