E36: Transcending Challenges and Championing Mental Health: An Odyssey with Alex Staniforth

Today's guest, Alex, is a testament to the power of the human spirit, the determination to overcome, and the healing potency of mother nature. This inspiring motivational speaker and founder of Mind Over Mountains, a mental health charity, shares his once tumultuous journey, laden with childhood epilepsy, a relentless stammer, and the scourge of bullying. Alex paints a vivid picture of how these obstacles shaped his self-perception, ignited his unwavering need to prove himself, and ultimately led him to find solace in the outdoors.

In this engaging conversation, we traverse the rugged terrain of Alex's extreme adventure challenges, including the gruelling National Three Peaks challenge and running 17 marathons in a mere nine days. He sheds light on how the fear of failure became his inspiration, pushing him to commit to these almost insurmountable challenges. The valuable lessons he learned about resilience, the importance of stepping beyond his comfort zone, and the transformative effect of his Everest expeditions are sure to resonate with many. We also delve into how the global pandemic has reshaped his perspective on comfort and adventure.

Lastly, we unpack the crucial role of outdoor therapy in mental wellbeing. Drawing on his personal experiences, Alex lends his insights on the disconnection with nature in our society and its repercussions, and how mindfulness, walking, and social connections can act as a preventive measure. He passionately shares how his charity, Mind Over Mountains, is striving to make outdoor therapy both accessible and affordable for those who desperately need it. This episode promises to challenge the stigma associated with mental health and illuminates the transformative power of sharing our personal struggles. Ready to embark on this journey of resilience, adventure, and healing? Tune in now.

https://instagram.com/alexstaniforth_
https://instagram.com/mindomountains
https://alexstaniforth.com
https://mindovermountains.org.uk

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast, alex. As I mentioned before we went live, this is all come about doing a little bit of a nature therapy series after going to the summit the Nature Therapy Summit at the UCLan, and we spoke to Richard Wall previous episode so it was only right that we attempt to get you on. So thanks for giving up your time because I know you're a very busy man, but for those people that may not have been open to the mountain environment, this sort of area, could you give us a little introduction?

Speaker 2: 0:30

Yeah, thanks, charlie, great to be here as well. And yeah, I have to introduce myself. I'll try and keep it brief. I guess I'd describe myself as an adventurer, an ultra-endurance athlete, a motivational speaker, and I'm a founder of a mental health charity called Mind Over Mountains. At 28, I'm in Kendall, so just on the edge of the Lake District, to be obviously near the hills, and my journey really is about trying to overcome life challenges through the outdoors and now trying to help other people to overcome their challenges in life and to achieve their own potential. I'm a fell runner now. I've been known for doing a few silly challenges over the years and essentially always trying to push my limits really and to share the journey and inspire people on the way. That's probably the most simple way of just grabbing me and my work really.

Speaker 1: 1:25

I think you've been very modest there. I've known of yourself for a number of years. I mean it's the first time we've actually managed to catch up and speak. We have exchanged through messaging services et cetera. I mean your story begins back in your childhood, I believe at school, with bullying. I don't know if you're all right talking about that.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Yeah, of course I mean. It's an all-open book. I share things openly because I know that doing that can help other people who are maybe going through the same thing or have similar challenges. It does start in childhood, like most things. That was the early foundation and I shouldn't really say that I was really fortunate. I had a great start in life. I was brought up in Chester, so I was there for most of my life. I've only been in the lakes for about four years now and yeah, I had a great start.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I was an early child, at least until I moved out and then the dog became here in the child and I had epilepsy as a child when I was probably about nine years old, which was quite a terrifying thing to go through that Such a formative time in your life, and although it was really mild, it was just a catalyst for different challenges, like angiotic impact attacks. It left me on the edge all the time. I was a nervous wreck, never really felt safe anywhere. I've had a stammer all my life as well, which somehow I'm now speak for a living. But a stammer comes and goes when it likes. It means I get blocks in certain words and so going through school. Not being able to communicate or express myself in the normal way obviously made school even more challenging. And the stammer means it really does come and go and I find ways of managing that, but when it's at the worst I can't even say thank you or say my name. I've literally smashed up phones at home through the frustration of being able to say my own name and I really struggle with certain words like C and K, which isn't ideal when you're from Kelsall and now live in Kendall.

Speaker 2: 3:33

But you see, so that didn't help the confidence much. And then obviously I was relentlessly bullied all the way through school. Bullying is a massive issue in schools nowadays, but when you're different, when you stand out, that just makes you a target. And so I was a target and it was physical and global bullying for no real reason other than that bats. And I think all these things together had a real impact on me. They really trashed my confidence and sense of self-esteem. And before it sounds like too much of a tragic case, I mean I also hated sports at school. I was absolutely hopeless when it came to PE and sports yesterday, which obviously is kind of a far cry from where I am now, but I'll never forget coming second to last in cross-country in PE in year seven.

Speaker 3: 4:23

Really.

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yeah, I guess that was where it all began.

Speaker 1: 4:28

Right, we'll get onto the challenges then especially. I used to be all right across country. I used to like it, but now I can't run, so a bit of a reversal there. Do you think that the bullying school has given you this drive to succeed? And then obviously speak about what happened and overcome that?

Speaker 2: 4:55

I think really I've just been finding different ways of overcoming challenges, and the outdoors and adventure became my vehicle for that. But I think what the bullying did from an early age was it gave it its need to fight back, its need to prove itself and to prove the bully is wrong. Now that's not a sustainable driver, because you can't go through life trying to prove people wrong, because you're never quite going to get there. But in the early years for sure, I think that's what drove me to push the bar so high and that's where the outdoors gave me that escape, that freedom, that safe space. In the most PC terms, literally just raising the middle thing. It's all of it and not being defined by that, not being defined by my challenges or by whatever people put on me.

Speaker 2: 5:47

And I think even now as an adult, it's made me very competitive. It's made me very, very self-critical, which can be a good or a bad thing. It depends if you know, if you're aware of that and you keep it in check. But generally when somebody tells me I can't do something, it makes me want to do it even more. I often say to people if you want me to complete a challenge, tell me I can't do it or doubt me, because it takes me right back and that maybe isn't a healthy trait, something I need to work on. But like anything in life, you have two choices. You know you can be defeated by it or you can use it to your advantage.

Speaker 1: 6:23

I'm just thinking there. We had we've interviewed Fiona Oaks recently and her driver most motivation, even through running without an e-cap and the pain is just that compassion for her animals. But I suppose it's a similar sort of drive, isn't it? It's a bit of a. It's that goal, but it can be damaging to yourself if you're too driven by it, too driven to reach it.

Speaker 2: 6:44

Yeah, I think so, and I had a really interesting comment a few years ago. I was speaking for a corporate event down in Wales and one of the managers there said to me you've got nothing to prove anymore, like when I was younger and when you're sort of 14, 15, you think you can take on the world. And back then I think I was trying to prove something. But nowadays I went nothing to prove, you know, and a question I often get asked is have you ever seen the bullies into their school? And the answer is well, I have, and you know they're exactly where I thought they'd be and I'm not motivated by that anymore. And it's now about that inner drive to achieve my full potential, you know, and to go beyond the average and to discover what's possible, you know, and now it's transformed into actually. It's to live life, on my own terms. You know, I've now got that baseline of what I've been able to overcome and deal with and therefore I know that I have to keep on pursuing that and helping people on the way.

Speaker 1: 7:42

If we just put you know we're talking about you being an adventurer and doing certain challenges. If we just try and put in perspective, it's not like someone walking Yorkshire Three Peaks we're talking here National Three Peaks, but actually running in between them as well.

Speaker 2: 7:56

Yeah, that's probably the most ridiculous thing I've done. And, incidentally, as we speak, there is another chap called Ben who's just about to finish the same challenge and he has smashed my time oh really.

Speaker 2: 8:08

I rambled in last week and there's actually two people try and get in the moment One running get, one walking, get Matt and Ben. And it's strange because it's three years ago today that I was on my attempt and I didn't think anybody else would be stupid enough to try it, and now there's two at the same time. Well, he's got something.

Speaker 2: 8:27

Well, I've created a trend, but in some ways, that's what it's all about is we should be encouraging and inspiring of people to do these things, and passing on the things I've learned and trying to get people to push the bar because it keeps us on our toes. But back to the Three Peaks at the time, for those that don't know well, it's not a very common challenge. It's obviously climbing the National Three Peaks. Yeah, most sensible people would drive between them, and that was my very first challenge when I was 16. And that was my Everest at the time. That was a massive thing for me.

Speaker 2: 9:03

After, a few years later, I decided to try and cycle between them in four days, which was also pushing the bar to another level, and then, in 2020, trying to run the entire 450 miles in between them as well. I missed the record, which was nine days, 11 hours by an hour. So it took me nine days, 12 hours, 51 minutes, but that's 17 marathons in one go and at that point, I've never done anything quite like that before. I mean, I'd only run one ultramarathon, never mind an average of 50 miles a day for nine days. So that was pushing the bar, but I think I'm at the point now where to raise money to inspire people, I've got to do stuff that is just utterly bonkers, and that's what excites me.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Well, yeah, you've sort of set a level there, haven't you? I, like you, say it's utterly bonkers. For people like myself, it looks utterly bonkers. Wow. 452 miles, what was it like? Did you do Ben Nevis first? Started on Ben Nevis.

Speaker 2: 10:01

And then obviously it's finished in Snowden, the idea being getting the biggest hills done first, and you almost feel like you're running to home. And it also meant that I'd have more people at the finish to be there to cheer me in. Yeah, I'd definitely recommend doing it that way, but the whole thing was utterly brutal. I mean definitely the hardest physically mental thing I've ever done, At the same time the most rewarding, because I'd never doubted myself as much.

Speaker 2: 10:26

Before a challenge You're always going to have a level of doubt, a level of anxiety. Otherwise you're not outside of your comfort zone. But this one I was almost paranoid that I was going to fail. I was absolutely convinced I was going to fail. But it just shows that when you properly commit to something, we are capable of so much as long as we're willing to just to put ourselves on the line, and then you just have to start. The hardest part is always getting to the start line. It didn't help that I'd actually spray my ankle a week before, and it's a bit serendipitous because I actually sprayed my ankle yesterday in a fell race. So it's almost like it's a full circle moment. But yeah, I think it's not only having that self-belief as well, but also having the right people around you. That's what makes the difference.

Speaker 1: 11:11

You mentioned something there about getting outside your comfort zone, and I might just be a personal view, but I do think society at the moment stops people wanting to get out of their comfort zone and then they're not really achieving their potential.

Speaker 2: 11:25

Not only that, but I think they're also not that resilient when life goes wrong, resilience to be able to deal with life challenges. For me, the best way of building and training that is being outside your comfort zone, and inevitably life will give us things that we don't get to choose To go and run the free peaks or run the Yorkshire free peaks or climb a mountain is purely a choice. I mean, we often question that choice when it's like blowing a hoolly and we're thinking why did I choose to do this? But afterwards that having had that experience, it does build that tolerance level and that's absolutely right.

Speaker 2: 12:03

We live in a very comfortable society and whenever I try and do these things I have to be questioning why and why keep on pushing? And even on the free peaks I had one of my sponsors emailing me halfway through telling me to stop because I was clearly doing myself so much damage I wasn't going to finish, I wasn't going to break the time. I've never had that before. So when that happened it really made me stop and question. But I was half a scarf or pike at the time. I had no choice but to get down. But that's the conditioned response is often why push yourself through that, but you've got to have your own reason for that, and the pandemic is a great example of why there is so much outside of our control, and adventure for me is the best way to learn and develop that. And it doesn't make you invincible by any means. My biggest challenges have actually been much closer to home but it does change your perspective and there is so much for comfort blanket around us nowadays and I'm all for changing that.

Speaker 1: 13:08

So you've been to Everest twice. Yeah, did you manage to summit at the time?

Speaker 2: 13:14

No that was probably my biggest resilience lesson.

Speaker 1: 13:17

Yes, I'm just going to mention that If you want to explain what happened there on both occasions.

Speaker 2: 13:23

In a nutshell, we were there in 2014. Well, that was my first expedition. I'd raised all the money through corporate sponsorship. I mean, I was 18 at the time, so I guess pot washing in the local pub wasn't going to pay for it. My parents weren't going to pay for it, so I had to find a way I make one. My dad said that was a lot of money for a holiday, although he is from Yorkshire, so I dropped that in there. So, after four years of climbing in Scotland in the Alps and Mont Blanc Himalayas, I went out on a team led by a guy called Tim Mosville.

Speaker 2: 13:59

And yeah, I mean it was happening. Until the day before we got to base camp, there was a big avalanche which killed 16 Kalamishirpers Biggest disaster in Everest history at the time and obviously we had to pack up and go home without stepping a single foot on the mountain. So we went back in 2015 for a second attempt and we were just below camp one when the earthquake hit Nepal. So, yeah, that didn't quite go to plan either, and we were trapped at camp one for two days at 6,000 meters, Not really knowing that we'd been just a tiny part in this disaster which had taken over 9,000 lives across Nepal. So, yeah, I mean, we spent two days stuck up there before being flown down by helicopter to this devastation.

Speaker 2: 14:46

Base camp had been wiped out and we lost three of our shirkers, and that teaches you a lot about life risk resilience. I've been in your comfort zone because, frankly, had we stayed at base camp, which is normally your safest place to be, we probably wouldn't be speaking now and at 19,. To have that perspective that we're all on borrowed time. Nothing is guaranteed and it's just about using that time purposefully and with intention. And when people say to me what's the rush, that's the answer I give them.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Yeah, what you say is perfectly correct. So in my opinion and the way that I sort of approach things now, I've lost quite a few people, unfortunately close friends, to taking their own lives, and it sort of put my perspective. With the mountains I was saying, what do I want to achieve? Because at one point it was I want to go do all these summits, and now I'm not really that bothered. Will I ever be a mountaineer? Probably not at my age now. But what I do like to do is pass them skills on so people can go out and enjoy the environments and then hopefully which we'll get on to soon with the charity and then hopefully avoid making decisions where we're going to be there funeral instead of celebrating the birthdays, unfortunately, this could be addressed to both of you.

Speaker 3: 16:05

really, here we go. But, alex, do you get more reward for achieving something that you haven't done before, or is it more rewarding getting someone else to follow your footsteps and achieving something great where you've kind of laid the foundation?

Speaker 2: 16:24

It's a really good question and I think, just to follow on from that point, charlie as well, I think that work is so important. Doing and just passing on those skills is massively important. Work and I think that's what I've reflected on my own journey in the last few years is there was this shift between? Success is about the journey, not just about the outcome, because the top of the mountain is actually just a minute moment, it's a fleeting moment, it's like a marathon. You cross the line, you get the buzz and then it's like what's next? I mean two weeks ago I had a challenge on the Frog Graeme. I mean a few days later I was really down, really isolated, thinking OK, what do I do now?

Speaker 2: 17:08

And I think for me the biggest satisfaction has come from inspiring the people, giving people that opportunity. And you know, take that time, I guess trying to leave something bigger behind. Don't get me wrong. I still have that need, that drive to challenge myself and I still get the thrill out of doing that and I think I always will. But that can't be the only driver, because it's not sustainable and you're never quite gonna get there. Because you're gonna get to the top of the mountain, I think what's next.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And after Everest, a few of my friends went back and submitted and they still seem to have this kind of emptiness there. It's kind of the not quite there. And I remember being on Choe U in 2016 when, again, I didn't submit and I was in my 10th to 23,000 feet, having this kind of midlife crisis at 21 years old, thinking had I been in that tent on Everest a year before, what would I have left behind? And yet I want to be known for my achievements, but I want to be known for inspiring people and I think the biggest reward I get now is from that difference that you make along the way. And partly I do that by doing silly things that raise money and create stories, but it's gotta be driven by something bigger than that it really has.

Speaker 2: 18:27

And last week I went and supported both Ben and Matt on their free peaks, runs and walks. It was a bit weird because there was a bit of me was feeling a bit like they're going after my record there. Well, my time it's not. I didn't obviously capture it, I didn't obviously get that fastest time in the end, but if I can't support the people, if I've not inspired them to do something, then I'm not doing my job properly and it was great to see them smashing it and to pass on my roots and to give them everything I've learned. And everybody wins because that inspires me to go on and do something else, and the charity and the speaking and the fundraising and the books are the vehicle for doing that. So it's a very long way to answer and obviously it would be great to have some healthy Charlie sports as well, but for me it's about the journey now, not just about that next thing after the next thing, after the next thing.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Yeah, I think for myself. I was doing a podcast for somebody and the question was what was your greatest or what was your best moment in the mountains? And do you know what I thought for about? I thought for a couple of seconds and then it wasn't. You know, I've been to Patagonia and Himalaya and Africa and places, but it was. I got a text from the first person that I'd ever fully trained for a mountain leader to say thank you cause they'd passed. Yeah, and I was. You know, I was nearly in tears myself.

Speaker 1: 19:51

But to help people and, pat, like you say, I'm passing on them skills and now they're passing on them skills to others. Yeah, I got ghost pumps there thinking about it. So, yeah, I do get a big satisfaction of helping people, training people, passing on, and then it's. You know from where I came from? The PTSD and had drinking, as you know, don't you say, the escapism from that. And then going through the mountain training schemes, getting the qualifications, getting experience, working with some great people that inspired me to then hopefully I'm not gonna say inspire others. I don't like that. I don't like it when people tell you oh, you're an inspiration, because it just embarrases me. But yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, quite tingly when you get somebody doing that.

Speaker 1: 20:44

I think when I did the marathon as well, it was the fact that I was doing it for a suicide charity and running actually thinking of friends that had lost to that, and I think I mentioned afterwards it was horrendous. I think I enjoyed the last two miles when I got my hamstrings came back to life and if I'd have been just doing it for myself I probably wouldn't have finished. But because we were doing it for a charity and for a cause and a great cause in Papyrus, then yeah, it was that Long-winded answer again, sam. Yeah, well, that's more here for. It is what we're here for. You see, we're here for a chat and hopefully inspire others. So can we get on to? I want to ask you about Mind Over Mountains, because why you started it when you started it, what the aim of it is, because obviously you're a partner with UCLan for the nature therapy summit.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Yeah, yeah, where did it all begin? I guess for some context and the journey that we've been on. I mean, we are three years old now as a charity, which is quite exciting, and it's just unbelievable to think how far it's grown arms and legs in that time. The idea and the opportunity kind of came off the back of 2017. So I did a challenge called Climbing UK which involved climbing to the highest point of all the counties in the UK by human power in 72 days, and that was fundraising for young minds, which is the leading mental health charity of young people.

Speaker 2: 22:11

Because as a young man, I'd always realized how long it took to get the help I needed from my own depression and anxiety and eating disorder. So I wanted to really get that kind of conversation started and it was about the same sort of time that I started talking openly around my mental health in public and using my story, my speaking, to do that. But what struck me from that journey was it took me longer to get an appointment for my own challenges than it did to cycle, walk and run 5,000 miles around the UK, which I was fortunate, because I would use the outdoors as my antidepressant. That's my therapy, that's my go-to. When I can't run or can't do that thing, that's when things get tricky. Having a sprain ankle now is gonna challenge me for next a few weeks, to be honest. But having had that kind of realisation I thought that's not good enough. We need to do something about that.

Speaker 2: 23:08

But again back to opportunities. I mean off the back of doing that challenge, I got contacted by a group called Aventure Uncovered who wanted to do this event around the benefits of walking in nature for mental health. So they kind of brought me in as like an ambassador to lead that and naturally, being a bit of a perfectionist, I kind of took over, wanted to make it more than just a weekend of hill walking, because we all know walking helps. But you come back down and you need your top walk, you need to go again. How can we give people the tools that they can use on a daily basis? So I brought in Chris, who was my first mentor as a coach, and so we can combine this weekend retreat of walking in the Lake District in coaching, inspirational speakers, counselling and mindfulness and just all these elements put into one so people get that full kind of holistic experience. And we built a team around that. And so Emma, who was our first mountain leader she had experienced working in mental health and had that compassion and understanding to actually support people, which was really important and the whole team just came together to produce really impactful experience. You know, and that was it just blew us away. You know, we saw the difference that made from people arriving with strangers on the Friday with angiety and fear and burden just leaving on a Sunday so much lighter, and we thought we've got to do more of this. So me and Chris started as a CIC in 2019. We did the same events again. Then we started the charity in 2020.

Speaker 2: 24:45

Essentially, providing day walks and weekend retreats, combining all those elements, you know, a safe space. You know a safe space, you know, of walking and talking. Alongside that, professional mental health support. That's our kind of key offering.

Speaker 2: 25:00

Then the pandemic came along. Obviously, all of our events got cancelled, so we couldn't just sit there and do nothing. You know, we had to find a way to help people for this like most isolating time we've ever experienced. So we kind of scratched our heads and we came up with these kind of day walk events instead, and that became a way to, you know, keep doing stuff. And then we got back to weekend retreats in 2021. But since then, I mean, the charity has just grown and grown and you know we now do day walks and retreats all across England and Wales. We hired a chief executive in February who's now taken that idea to kind of a new level.

Speaker 2: 25:37

But for me, it's about having this kind of natural health service and I think that if we can get people out walking more often with like-minded people, we could really intervene with so many of the mental health problems we're seeing in society. I'm fortunate I mean, I'm on edge of the latest rites. I can see the hills now from my office window, but not everybody is that fortunate. So how can we make sure that support is available? You know, and we all know, it helps, but how do we help more people to get that that really need it? So, yeah, that's what we do. I'm still a trustee and a founder, but I'm, you know, trying to build a team that do a much better job than me. I'll leave them to it, really.

Speaker 3: 26:17

So the NHS recently I think it was a few months back, wasn't it? They have said that they would start prescribing walking and going outdoors. Are you working together?

Speaker 2: 26:29

We're certainly trying to, and the green social prescribing is a massive area for our strategy and obviously, hence that partnership in Ukraine has been really exciting for us because they are real experts in that space and for me, the vision for the charity would be that we are prescribed by the NHS instead of just, you know, hitting some pills, which is right for some people, I had them for a while. That should be an alternative intervention, and to be trusted and to be known and accredited by the NHS is obviously when we're not there yet, but we are having a lot of conversations with social prescribers and wellbeing leads in certain trusts and we have actually done events for the NHS, for the ambulance service, for the police as well, trying to work with those kind of blue light services. So we are talking to them, but obviously we're a long way off being as available and as accessible as it should be.

Speaker 1: 27:22

Did we speak about this with Richard about there seems to be a lot of intervention after people got to go through the mental health problem first instead of maybe using the outdoors beforehand. If you know what I mean we say. You know young people cut off from the outdoors, not everybody gets the opportunities they should have. So I know in Scandinavia and we did definitely speak about this about the junior schools where they don't go inside, you know, and the playtime, and they're out and not doing the level of academic studies that they're probably doing in this country.

Speaker 3: 28:03

It's trying to prevent it rather cure it yes prevention, yeah.

Speaker 1: 28:07

But then obviously using the mountains, and then everybody after the pandemic hit the mountains at the same time, probably rightfully so. But then it obviously pops up a lot of bad press with people not in love with the mountains or in love with the outdoors, as maybe there should be, if you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 28:26

Alluding to, we had a few challenges in the lake. So obviously because it was one of the few places that people could go, and people were desperate to get out to green spaces, when they've been locked indoors for all that time, and I don't blame them, and it would be wrong of me to say, oh well, no, you know, this is just for us, it's for everybody, but it's just about how we manage that as carefully as we can. And yeah, I mean I think there's just been a real disconnection with the general outdoors. And you know just the outdoors in general. You know, and I think that it's instinctively where we're designed to be. You know, the fact that we feel so much better after a day outside kind of speaks for itself. And the science is back and up as well.

Speaker 2: 29:07

I mean, I'm not an expert in the space by any means. My only expertise is I've been using it for many years and it's always worth the need. But that prevention piece, as you said, I think is really important because, as you say, we often get people in the too far down and it takes a lot more energy and a lot more resource and a lot more time to get them back to a good place, whereas, as you say, if people could make this a habit and that's what we aim to do is by teaching them mindfulness, by encouraging them to walk and then creating their social connections I think, if it's used more regularly, we could really could prevent a lot of that. It should be about a prevention rather than just kind of you know, here's a pill, here's a treatment, but equally, you know that's a bigger job than we are ever possibly going to solve on our own, and we know that.

Speaker 1: 29:54

Can I ask you this is you personally, not anybody that you sort of, because I know I know what I do is I'll go away to the mountains, I'll come back and then, when I've been doing the domestic chores or whatever for a couple of days, I do feel a bit. I can sense a I won't say a depression, but can sense a definite down turning mood, and it's handy to be back out there.

Speaker 2: 30:18

Yeah, I can relate to that and last week we had a few nice sunny days. I had a wild camp on Haystacks. This summer has been so dreadful that you just have to grab every opportunity you can and a few nice swims. And you know, and I've felt that dip this week, especially now that I've sprained my ankle, I'm not going to be able to, I can't run for probably a week or two. I'll get on the biker in the water hopefully, which will help. I think as long as you're outside doesn't matter what you're doing, you know that will help. But I can definitely relate to that dip and I'm not sure whether there's an answer to that, whether there's a way around that.

Speaker 2: 30:55

I think this is why, for me, it's about habits and being able to have something planned, have something else to look forward to and having more tools in the kit.

Speaker 2: 31:05

I think was key for me, because last year when I couldn't run for, you know, for kind of quite a while, I got myself into a really bad place. So I discovered in open water that was a new thing for me, a new little project, and actually it was a way to keep getting outside, to keep getting that fix and to see the lights from a new perspective. So that was one way of managing it really just having different projects and having things. I think every week just having a plan, having things to look forward to, is what helps me get out of that, and I think inevitably it's always going to be about peaks and troughs, you know, and I think inevitably you get the peak, you get that high at a great day outside. As you say, inevitably there's going to be a crash. It's just about finding ways to get yourself back up again and knowing that these dips will pass.

Speaker 1: 31:56

Yeah, like you said earlier, it's where we're supposed to be, isn't it? We're supposed to be outside. I do get quite frustrated when people talk about nature as something else. But we are actually. You know, we're part of nature. We're all bits of space dust. If we only get seven years, quite spiritual about it. Where's the future life for outdoor therapy or nature therapy in your opinion?

Speaker 2: 32:21

I mean, I think just reflecting on our journey as a charity, like how much it's grown in three years, is exciting and quite daunting and often it's been very hard to keep track of. You know, and now we have a brilliant team of water leaders, of coaches, counselors and psychotherapists and everybody involved that just get the vision, they believe in it and they want to take it to everyone who needs it. But the vision that we're kind of looking to now is that social perspective peaks, because ourselves and other charities in the space that we've spoken to, we're all saying the same thing is how do we reach the people that really need it? We're often preaching to the converted. We know, we both understand, we all understand the benefits of walking and talking and being outside, but that's only a very small percentage really of the bigger picture. So for me, partnerships and social prescribing are going to be key to actually making that therapy available for everyone that really really does need it.

Speaker 2: 33:19

I mean, obviously in our charity you know we have bursary funding as well, which has always been there to make sure it's accessible, but that only covers one part of accessibility. You then got to look at transport and kit and just that kind of poverty of thought. Some people don't even think to go for a walk. It doesn't even occur to them that that would be good for them. So therefore, they have less healthy kind of tools, and I think so. That's why I think the social, prescribing and education piece is going to be key. It has to be mainstream at every level. So that's my view on it and I think it's going to be a big collaboration effort because, I said, as a tiny charity like ours alone, we're going to need a lot of people working and doing different things, taking different approaches to the same problem. That's my thoughts on it is the biggest challenge is reaching the people that really need it.

Speaker 3: 34:12

I think you make a really good point there. It's always easier to preach to people who actually know that it's good for them and it's really hard to you know, trying to convince people to get up and break. I would call it like sometimes maybe I think we live in quite a lazy society sometimes. If you look at it, you know a lot of people come comforted in the home. Maybe three points how would you approach someone who has a very enclosed life at home, comfortable in front of the telly? What would you recommend telling them how to break that lazy cycle?

Speaker 2: 34:50

Again, I'm no expert and it comes for me. This is all very instinctive, so it's actually quite hard to unpick that. My take on it would be, firstly, having accountability. So ideally, having somebody else there, I mean, if you've got all the people in the same household that are of a similar mindset, okay, that might make it more challenging because they may try and talk you out of it, but ideally, you know, having a friend or somebody that you can go with makes you much more likely to actually go through with that plan, whether that's to go for a walk or go outside and do something.

Speaker 2: 35:24

I think setting a goal, having an actual measured goal, I think is key because if you say, well, I'll go for a walk if I feel like it, you're already setting yourself up to fail. If you say, right, I'm gonna run a 5k by the end of the year or I'm gonna walk up snowing by the end of the year, you then have that, that end in mind. You then have that reason to work towards and that could be as small as personal for you. You know everybody has their own, ever is. I know I've kind of pushed the bar quite high personally, but a lot of people in our events. They've walked their very first mountain before and that's a massive thing for them and that, just, you see, that sense of achievement and I've got it, that's why we do what you know, that's why we do you know that's. You know, that's why we exist. Is is creating those moments of people and it's finding the goal that excites and scares them. So so, yeah, there's few things accountability, Setting it, you know, a measured goal that is achievable, but a bit of a stretch, I Think.

Speaker 2: 36:21

It's literally about habits, you know, and that can be smallest changes.

Speaker 2: 36:24

You know, if you try and change everything once you try and say, well, I'm, you know I'm gonna run a silk free arm, you know I'm gonna, I want to, I want to run a silk free marathon, you know, then obviously that's a pretty big step, but actually, if it's right, I'm just gonna walk for 10 minutes a day, you know, before I start, walk at work, or every time.

Speaker 2: 36:43

You know, you know, every evening, at a certain time, I'm gonna go out and do a mile or whatever, whatever's achievable and realistic for you and your commitments, and it feels a lot more manageable because if you set the goal too high and you fail, you just feel worse and then you're probably gonna kind of just there's gonna something kind of, yeah, you're just gonna just gonna sit there and stir, and but I think Small goals create that sense of momentum and then it builds from there. And you know, every runner starts often says, oh, I could never do a marathon. Then you do a marathon, then you enter a larger marathon, and then so on and so on. But you've got to take that first step. So I think maybe that first step is as achievable as you can and and you'll have setbacks, you know, and you're not gonna change overnight, but small habits create big changes over time.

Speaker 1: 37:33

I was just thinking. Then I've my own, my own history of Basically just escape into the mountains because it was an escapism. But then when we had the lockdown, which did mean no good at all for three, I mean three weeks, I didn't speak to anyone apart from the lady in Tesco's when I was buying beers and then getting a, basically just getting a grip of myself and going back to them. Basic, you know, you know, but the actual basics and it would get me mountain bike out and up and down the canal and within I might have stayed out over the hour, I don't mind a minute. But but that first, that first day out, you know, four hours out, on a mountain bike up and down the canal. I mean miles away from home, but straight away the healing.

Speaker 2: 38:17

Would it be healing?

Speaker 1: 38:18

the sort of rejuvenation of my mental health and, you know, just shedding out then bad habits of waking up at any time and Not doing anything all day, eating terrible food, probably drinking too much, which a lot of people got into during the lockdowns, didn't know. Yeah, so it's just like getting it. Getting it's just getting outside in it.

Speaker 1: 38:38

You know, there's so much evidence now and I did actually say this at the nature therapy summit I mean we should. I mean, don't set this in a bad way, but should we be having these summits? Because we've just got so far away from our role in nature, you know, with millions of years of evolution, and all of a sudden we're locking ourselves in houses, cars, offices, clubs, etc. And not being part, not taking up that part. So there's got to be an effect, there's got to be a negative definitely, definitely.

Speaker 2: 39:08

And I think you say, just Sometimes you have to reach that kind of turning point. You know people get to that point perhaps where they feel so frustrated or bad about you know, that environmental situation and you've got a change environment to change your mindset, I think as well. And as you say, you know that moment, just being out on the bike, that sort of shift, you know I'm a rejuvenation. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I think that that that's really cool, you know, and I know myself, like during that time, if I wasn't able to get out and run From a front door, you know it would have been a different experience for me.

Speaker 2: 39:41

But every day, just that ability to be outside, for you know, again, I may have also ran more than an hour, but I was training for the, for the, I was training for the three peaks at the time that sense of calm, like the world was, was Ever. You know the whole world was, was just in chaos. But you go out into nature, you hear the birds, you watch the sunset and actually just being in the moment, nature's okay. Then you know nature was business as usual. You go there. At least you can find that sort of escape from the chaos for a while. I think that's what nature does for us. It gives us that place to be in the present.

Speaker 1: 40:19

Yeah, I think that nature had a bit of a result, actually didn't it for a while, with no people bother out bothering it.

Speaker 3: 40:25

Do you remember doing COVID? Just when it first hit on the first lockdown, the weather improved massively. I mean, it could have been a fluke that we had like beautiful sunshine, but it just felt like Everything kind of rejuvenated. You know, I start seeing butterflies. I sat, you know.

Speaker 2: 40:41

Yeah, or maybe it was because I was sat outside when I was a man too I'm actually paid a bit more attention to nature a bit more mindful to what we're going on around you, yeah it may be as well said, it's also just about awareness because, you know, we're in these kind of busy modern lives, surrounded by so much, you know, tech and Bones and things distracting us all the time and and when we don't really often get the chance to stop and take notice I mean people who spend time in the hills, you know, do you probably get more than that? But just actually stopping and taking notice and and on our events, we, you know, on the walks, a big part of what we do is actually bits of mindfulness where we'll stop and take five. You know, there's no right to the top, it's like right, we're gonna sit here on the hillside, have some lunch and just think about, well, where we are in the future. You know, and and it's actually surprisingly hard to do when we're so used to rushing around and All the birds got really loud as well, but they're probably the same, it's just that we've just got really quiet for a change. It's great.

Speaker 2: 41:40

On the bike, it was amazing because there's no, there's no cars around. It's brilliant.

Speaker 1: 41:44

Yeah, it was, yeah, it was up some downs. I suppose, on the on the positive side, as we have reloaded so few times on this on the podcast, is that people are actually Making an effort to get out and that's, you know, through people like yourselves and others that are around. There's quite a few Charities doing this in there, but I suppose are you, would you say the other, the leading charity? Oh God, I mean I wouldn't say that.

Speaker 2: 42:07

I mean I think there's lots of different charities in the space, but I think we're all taking different approaches and we're all working together.

Speaker 2: 42:15

You know that's how it should be and I don't think there's anybody doing quite what we do with that combination. You know our professional mental health support and the outdoors and the mindfulness, but some brilliant organizations out there doing some really good stuff and and I think the summits and those things are a good way to to make those aware of each other I think for us to be the leading I mean it's like an ambition, but I think it's not about the leading, it's just about how many people that we can help. I mean we helped 300 people last year and but that needs to be many, many more. And I think as long as we can keep on growing and keep on supporting people, that's where that's really our main ambition. Every charity exists to not exist, but I think the challenge of mental health in society, unfortunately, is probably never going to go away that time anytime soon. So we just have to grow to try and meet that demand.

Speaker 1: 43:01

What sort of people do come to the charity? Because I know I've been asked before and I've considered with with people basically Taking groups out and wanting to go out and have a bit of a bit of a talk in a release, and I've actually I've had to decline because I've not been comfortable about taking people out into, then out on environments where something may go Wrong, somebody may have a trigger and set off by the selves or whatever. Yeah, so how do we? It seems a bit of a Mind-feel to myself.

Speaker 2: 43:32

It is a challenge and I think when you're taking potentially vulnerable people and so you know our attention, if you you know a potentially serious environment where things can go wrong, which is can be dangerous, then obviously that has a duty of care. That's why, you know, all of our walks have always been led by the mountain leaders, so they have that support. But also then you know it has a coaches, counselors and psychotherapists dependent on the needs of the group, and you have that as your mental health support there as well, in case somebody did have a crisis or you don't have to serve it on the hill. So you got kind of all bases covered. That's always been our model is that the events are led by, but you know, by the train staff who have awareness of everybody on the events and, you know, on their history.

Speaker 2: 44:15

We have such a wide range of people though. I mean we we have had people who've literally recently been hospitalized because of various mental health, you know, right up to people who Maybe just need a bit of time for themselves, who maybe you don't have a diagnosed problem, maybe we have a lot of kind of single parents who are just a bit burnt out and they need a bit of time for themselves, which you don't get. We've seen a lot of people suffering with kind of trauma, unbreedment, you know, maybe they've lost their way and they need a bit of connection again. There are a lot of people that have had, you know, there's, you know, there's, you know, but episode of mental health in the past that maybe have lost that love of walking or wants to kind of restart that To.

Speaker 2: 44:57

You know people, ex-forces, a lot of entrepreneurs who've maybe put themselves out or had major life events, a real range. I mean we basically say you know people that have to have a diagnosed mental health problem. It's open, you know, to anybody over 80 but we do have the support available that if people do have more of that problems then we can support those. You know we deal with a lot of a lot of the PTSD, a lot of trauma with a personality disorders Angiote and depression are obviously very, very common, but all walks of life and it's amazing how this group of strangers can come together you know strangers and leave as friends, you know, because there's no judgment, there's no pressure, there's no expectation and just just walking and talking and sharing experiences.

Speaker 1: 45:39

We're just gonna mention them, yeah, but you know groups popping up, basically that it could. There is always the potential of a trigger being caused and not being good and not being a great environment. So it's, you know, it's great that you have these trained people out. We're not just, you know, not just people that are gonna talk, but people who maybe not gonna talk. They're not gonna say too much.

Speaker 2: 46:02

I mean just right on that. I'm aware, and we are aware that there are a lot of people doing similar things. You know all really good intentions, but my concern is that sometimes you don't have the professional support there you are. If somebody, somebody could have an experience which would actually make them worse, yeah, if you don't have that follow-up support like we've had people on our events, we've had episodes and and luckily we've then been able to signpost them and give them that follow-on support and If you don't have that, you can potentially be more damage. So I totally agree there that it's all really positive, but you've got to be very, very careful.

Speaker 1: 46:37

Hmm, so you've got. You've had your own problems in the in that. Well, issues in the in your past, as I have with myself. Do you find that by opening up and talking about it, the actual scale of the mental health issues in the country is a little bit mind-blowing, to be fair?

Speaker 2: 46:56

it is and I think it. I don't know where it's gonna get worse, whether it's improving or where at the moment, but it's certainly. The stats are scary. Hmm, talking about it for me is key and it hasn't always been this way. You know, many years ago I wouldn't have been able to come and chat to you now openly about it. But now I talk about it as openly as if I'd be talking about I'm doing or something else, because it should be like that, it should be that way. But it's taken years to get to this point. And the reason I talk about it now is because by by doing so I I realize how that creates this kind of positive multiplier effect, which I call it, where One story becomes another story, then becomes another story. So, for example, you know my first bout of depression was when I was 16 and I've had a number of episodes since then.

Speaker 2: 47:43

Angiity has been a chronic theme throughout my life. I'm always been a warrior, always an overthinker. I've had panic attacks, even on mountains, but generally the outdoors is my way of releasing that stress. I have a lemia when I was 17 and that's. That was a challenge for about eight years. I'm now recovered, but still something that I managed. But I kept all that to myself because I was this adventurer, because I was this athlete. You know, that for me was this vision of I've been mentally tough Depression and Giants. He was easy to ask for help, which I did, you know, and I was on medication for a while. But eating disorder, as a man particularly, was really hard to talk about. For some reason it just felt Disgusting and comfortable, wrong, you know, and I think it's actually more prevalent in athletes, in in male athletes, than we're probably aware of. Same reason, because many people feel in the same way that I did. But I read about another marathon runner in the Guardian who had also have a lemia, you know, and Just to show that, well, it wasn't just me, you know, firstly, secondly, a lot, all the comments in the article. You kind of expect him to get trolled, you know, and see all this kind of like, all this kind of uncomfortable responses, because whenever I try to mention it to friends, I often got this kind of very uncomfortable, kind of shirky response that people didn't know what to say or do so they just didn't talk about it. But I saw that actually people were saying, wow, that's amazing, I'm not alone, I thought it was only me realized he was having a really positive impact on people by share the story. That's when I realized that this was a gift, that I had to talk about that because people could feel the way it's the way that I did.

Speaker 2: 49:26

I Then posted a blog about this to the world before my last challenge, basically saying oh my god, you know, this is what I've suffered with, the most terrifying thing I've ever done. Oh God, it was that moment of vulnerability. I only had an overwhelmingly positive response. I then had. I then saw a friend who Posted a blog about their struggles with you know a similar thing, and I remember congratulating her and saying you know, well done for sharing your bravery. And she said you know, it was your blog, the game of the Kurdish to do it. I that person now is actually my running coach, would you believe.

Speaker 2: 49:59

But it just shows that one story has this kind of chain of facts and the more that has happened, the easier it has become to the fact that now I can. You know, my main job is motivation speaking. So I'm speaking in front of two and a three and a four hundred people about oppression and anxiety and bulimia, whereas years ago I was breaking down in tears telling my GP. I think some people are going to get so far down that that's not going to get through and that's when we need more professional support. And then, having been in that position before, it's a terrifyingly scary, overwhelming place and I don't know what the answer is to that. I've always been pretty good at getting myself out of that, fortunately. But I do think that in the early stages we can just by talking more and creating the platform. I do think we can make a difference, a big difference.

Speaker 1: 50:47

Yeah, I know, when I first started talking quite openly about the PTSD, I think it was about 2015, you know, and I'd actually been dying of those in 2000, a long time, because it was all the man they have, man, they have sort of errors. But yeah, there was a big. It was like a fear that I'm going to actually say this. But and I think the reason that myself and Seb is still doing this now is that if we've got knowledge and experience, then it's a bit selfish to keep it when you know when people are struggling and people are taking their own lives.

Speaker 3: 51:23

Because a lot of people feel like they're alone, Like yeah, you know, their problems are their own problems and no one will experience the same thing or similar thing. And that's usually not the case, because we are all humans and we all kind of experience the same issues or very similar issues. We have the same feelings, so may we're just biology especially to spread somewhere.

Speaker 2: 51:48

It isn't, and it's only when you start having those conversations that you become aware of that. You know, and and again, just giving people the safe space to walk and talk, like in the mountains, there's something about walking side by side that makes it easier than perhaps being a, you know, in like kind of a counseling environment, face to face, or, you know, on a call like this, where people try to avoid showing those emotions and that because they don't want to see that reaction, and that's a big part of what we do. But I think is one of the tips I would say to people to help open up is just change the environment. You know, go for a walk together, do something outside, and it's often easier to say that. But I'm interested, charlie. Was there like a sudden shift for you that helped you to start speaking? Was it quite a rapid process or was it an event that triggered that?

Speaker 1: 52:37

Or no, I'll tell you, it was that a couple of guys that I knew were taking their own lives and I, basically what I'd done is I'd been diagnosed with a PTSD, but it was that was back at yeah, that was in 2000. But I was drinking heavily, I was out for days, you know, just avoiding sleep, avoiding sleep because of flashbacks, and I was quite sort of notorious, I suppose, with some of the health care said that to work with me with some of behavior. But this is, these are all the you know, the symptoms of what I was doing by the avoidance. And then I just buried it. And then, but I can, I'll, I'm quite open now and I'll tell anyone that just burying it does not make it go away. It's still there. And what happens is you build up traits and I mean because of reading that I've done and research for the podcast, you but you're changing your, you're changing your neuro pathways by burying things and going, you know, just going round and round in these dark holes really. And then because, yeah, a couple of guys that I knew, they weren't super close friends, but well, I'm talking, yeah, jim, jimmy was Jimmy I trained with and you're thinking, well, this guy's got a wife, a couple of kids. You know, we used to tie a box together. He's taking his own life and what you know, why have I, if I, if I've come through this?

Speaker 1: 53:55

So it was about eight or nine years before I started actually going out and taking the mountain seriously, because I was working constantly on the doors. And then I started doing that and found out this is brilliant, this is what I want to do. You know, this nature therapy basically what we're talking about anyway and then when people was, you know, these guys took their own lives and thought why am I? I'm basically not talking about this because I'm more, I'm worried about the, the man, the fuck up people. It was them that were stopping me talking.

Speaker 1: 54:25

And then when I achieved my winter mountain leader, I did a big post and just went yeah, just, you know, if someone with the level of PTSD that I had, a depression, can actually go on and achieve something like that award, which is a tough award, I think that I think that the PTSD and the depression actually helped me with the award because you just like, again, we go back to that resilience like we spoke about earlier. So, yeah, it wasn't, it was just a thought of I am being very, very selfish and that's why we sat here, isn't it, seb? Yeah, and we were quite open to talk about experience and yourself, alex, coming on and talking about your own experience, so it's brilliant to see so many people actually coming out and, yeah, talking discussions.

Speaker 3: 55:07

Again, we just hope it's easy to bridge to the same people who are? Like-minded on that or who know about these things. We're hoping to build an audience and listeners who are, you know, who are looking for some sort of answers is not the right word, but maybe a bit of hope.

Speaker 1: 55:26

Yeah, I mean there is. There is still a big stigma, I think, about people admitting that they're struggling with the mental health, because we did have a guy, had a guy that I used to work on the doors with, so if you're listening, hello. But he actually said to me you know it's great work what you're doing with the podcasts. The variety of people who are getting on it says I don't like, I don't click the likes and I don't click the shares because I don't want nobody, I don't want anybody to know that I'm going through my own issues, which it's a personal choice, isn't it? It is a big step. I actually I mean much like yourself. I found it was a lifted a great weight off my shoulders. It wasn't something that got worse, yeah. And then, obviously, when mountain training did well, rob, rob made the film, yeah, so, and then it was, it was all out there.

Speaker 2: 56:10

I think, you know, people have to be ready at their own time to do that, you know, and it took years to get that kind of shift, to be able to start talking about it, and I think for that person to just for them to tune in and listen to that and to give you that feedback is is bravery in himself.

Speaker 2: 56:27

You know, they might not want to share and some people, for example, don't want to advertise that they've been on our events because they don't want to be seeing that they're taking the wellbeing retreat. Or some people say, well, we, I really want to come, but I don't want to take a place from somebody that kind of needs it more. And I think everybody needs a bit of time for themselves, you know, and that stigma is still there, yeah for sure, but to your point, I think that's that's really important that we do it for the people that need it, not for the you know 5% of the people that might be a bit uncomfortable with it. You know, whenever I've posted my life story out there, sometimes when I've had a bit of it, I've got to post it and put a bit of squirm bit afterwards. But actually if anybody doesn't like that, I don't care, because it helps one person to realize it's not just them. So if they can avoid years and years and years of suffering, then I think that's all we can ask for.

Speaker 1: 57:20

I mean, we've had a bit of a breakthrough here actually, because I'm going to be well, we're doing some, some walks for the podcast, really, but just sort of just getting out, and Seb's actually said he's going to come now. Seb, yeah, I've been trying to advise Seb to give himself at least an hour a day for himself, because he just never stops. And I think the pair of us pair of us didn't know what we were taking on when we started this, this full time job for no pair.

Speaker 2: 57:50

Sounds like a charity.

Speaker 1: 57:51

Yeah, well, this is it, mate. It's one of them, but it's you know, every so often we keep saying, right, we're you know, is it worth it? Is it getting out there? It's not getting out there as much as it can, but I think that's due to algorithms. I might be on a shadow band on my personal account, apparently, but every so often someone will drop in a little email or a message saying they've listened to the podcast and they're now trying out. They're now trying the cold water swimming and it's doing in wonders, or they're trying something else that you know where you're talking about cycling or anything, anything, anything. We've spoken out mindfulness that that's done something for them, and they've. Yeah, that's been great and it got me out of a bad place, that's what it's all about.

Speaker 2: 58:33

That's what it's all about.

Speaker 1: 58:34

Well, that's been a good chat. So, alex, I'm going to have to say, unfortunately we will get to chat in person at some point. I'm sure we will, definitely.

Speaker 2: 58:43

I'm sure. I'm sure there's lots more work in the space and to be, you know. You know just to have you. You know, just as you have, you know, just to have. I'm pretty sure you've got Sam has gone. After all that It'd be great to have you having involved in our work as well at some point. And we're I know we're in the next summit next year as well. I'm sure there's plenty of opportunities. So we're sure we'll walk and talk in the real hills at some point soon.

Speaker 1: 59:05

Yes, cool Right. Thank you very much, Alex.

Speaker 3: 59:08

Thanks, Alex, for taking your time and sharing your experiences.

Speaker 2: 59:11

Thanks, folks, it's been a pleasure, and thank you for all you're doing as well. That's really important.

Speaker 1: 59:15

Thank you.