E39: The Transformative Influence of Outdoor Counseling: A Session with Stacey McKenna - Seed

Imagine a therapy session that doesn’t confine you to the four walls of an office but takes you into the great outdoors, where you can literally and metaphorically breathe better. In our latest podcast episode, we chat with Stacey McKenna, a specialist in outdoor counselling, who shares with us how nature therapy can be a unique therapeutic environment that promotes the healing of mind and soul. She imparts insights about the fascinating world of polyvagal theory and its relevance to nature therapy. If you're always yearned for a different approach to conventional indoor therapy and a unique interaction with the great outdoors then this episode is just for you.

We further delve into the merits of preventive care and early intervention in mental health care, using the NHS well-being model as an illustrative example. We discuss its promotion of social participation, physical activity, learning new skills, giving to others, and mindfulness. Additionally, we bring to the fore a thought-provoking discussion on the potential cost-saving benefits of incorporating nature-based therapies into traditional treatments.

As we traverse through the episode, you will hear about Stacey’s experiences working with traumatized children and families. Using creative strategies and outdoor activities, Stacey engages with these families in a gentle and non-intimidating manner. We discuss the profound impact of shared experiences, and the need for self-care while working in this field. The episode concludes on a poignant note, highlighting the connection between nature, spiritual moments, and the overwhelming awe that it often inspires. Join us on this enlightening expedition as we uncover the transformative power of nature therapy.

https://rewildingoutdoortherapy.co.uk

https://instagram.com/rewildingoutdoortherapy

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the White Fox Talking podcast Stacey McKenna. Hi, was it Stacey McKenna's seed? It is Stacey McKenna's seed, stacey McKenna's seed, so welcome. Thanks for joining us. This is the last part of our Nature Therapy series that I never told said that we were actually doing and I just thought I wanted to get yourself, because we met you at UCLan and we did a session outside and good to get somebody in and tell us, hopefully, how it works. You are an outdoor counselling therapist, so can you give us a bit of an introduction about yourself? Really?

Speaker 2: 0:27

Yeah, sure. So, as you say, you and I met at the Nature Summit at UCLan, didn't we, which was a fabulous event and brought people together from sort of all different sort of modalities really that work with people outside in nature because we recognize the benefits on the human being of working outside in a natural space and sort of immersing ourselves in nature. But yeah, I choose to work outside because that's where I feel at my best and I work with clients on a one-to-one basis. I'm person-centered, which means it's very humanistic, a very present moment way of working that puts the client very much in a position of power and control and sees them as expert in their own experiencing. My job is really just to listen and facilitate sort of their exploration of whatever's going on for them. I also run group experiences where we might have a walk and there might be some elements of forest bathing in that and we might even have a dip in some cold water as well. So there's a few different things I do in the outdoors.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Is there a particular group of people or issues that would be attracted to coming and looking at yourself and in the outdoors, rather than sitting in the more traditional clinical environment?

Speaker 2: 1:44

Oh yeah, it's a good question because there's benefits for both, I think, in I'm a trauma-informed practitioner so I've got to really sort of explore where a client will feel safe or unsafe. That's really key in deciding on place and space. And some people, although I'm saying this is a wonderful way of working, it might not be for everybody. So the people that ordinarily would seek this type of counseling out are often quite well-versed in the outdoors. They might know that they feel good already being out.

Speaker 2: 2:14

They might have a confidence being out in the more than human world. They might seek it out because it's comfortable. And then they might seek it out because they've had an experience of indoor counseling and they haven't liked it or it hasn't been as beneficial or effective as they would like. And some people might be curious. There's a real curiosity around this new way of working which obviously, if you're doing it and you're in it, you know it's not a new way of working, but there's more sort of traction around this way of working, especially since COVID and the pandemic and that sort of thing, and people recognizing and identifying that actually being out in nature is making me feel good. So then there's a galvanized way of wanting to seek that out more.

Speaker 1: 2:53

Yeah, I mean, don't get too far off track. You think that one of the positives of COVID was that people did discover actually being cooked in for a long period of time and not socializing that actually going out rather than oh, I don't know, rather than pressing the panic button and going to see the doctor because they couldn't see the doctor, going out for a walk and find out. So this works. I want to, because there must have been a longing for people I know I went through it where a longing to be out goes, rather than sat watching TV.

Speaker 2: 3:19

It's the body, it's a longing for the physical sort of movement as well that was lacking for lots of people that I met through therapy and around that time. What is the need to move the body? And a real stuckness of being inside and, you know, being, oh, given the really strict parameters of only going out for an hour, where did it feel? Human? That did it. What can you achieve in an hour? So then people started really exploring space close to themselves. That perhaps they've overlooked before, but it's something intrinsic in the human to be outside and to be moving around and, yeah, using this body as it should be used and COVID didn't allow for that really but people are acknowledging and identifying the little things that were really beneficial for their mental health and well-being. Could have been something as small as being in the garden, you know, but just knowing that what you could have and what you weren't allowed to have, there was an element of that I think as well.

Speaker 1: 4:10

That's what's a WEMF. Yellow Williams on the last podcast and he was saying part of his obviously is well known for being naturalist natures, but he was saying, you know, even even when, after he had a heart attack, just getting out and Standing and watching the pond, and even though he's not ever practiced any any sort of form what we call like a Medial, is pretty stress relief that was, isn't? It's like a form of meditation?

Speaker 2: 4:42

Oh, meditation yeah, it is, I would agree with that. It's not something I can sort of attune to. I find it really difficult to sort of be in a Still meditative state that I can't access those parts of myself being still. I find my meditation is on the move. You know, if I'm sort of walking any sort of brisk pace, or especially when I'm running and I might feel like, oh, I'm in the flow, this is really, oh, this is working. Well, I can be in quite a meditative state. So I think meditation is different for each individual and it will work for some and what I do, what work for others, but it's it's about finding your own thing. And it's very beautiful that he says getting out of his head and into his body by looking and just Viewing what, what's going on out there, all the sort of benefits of being in nature and being still, absolutely. You know the polyvagal theory side, and that activates your Paris impetetive nervous system.

Speaker 1: 5:39

It's very gentle way of being could you just explain what Polyvagal theory is for our listeners, something I've read about, actually, so something will be moving on to it, seen as you, you said it. You'll better explain it better than me.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Well, yes, sure, it's about thinking about some of the things that underpin the rationale for working outside, or some of these sort of theories that back up the benefits of nature, and one of those is polyvagal theory, which, to keep it very sort of Easy to understand, is that our bodies have got, you know, an autonomic nervous system that is affected by what we experience. You know our bodies, this thing called neuroception is our bodies, an instrument for taking in cues of safety and threat. Very clever in doing that. But you know, when we sense the rat part of our brain, the amygdala will sort of kick in, really, and it might often send us into what we would call the sympathetic nervous system of fight or flight. So what we're thinking about there is trauma responses. So if we are triggered, you know, and if we're looking at complex trauma or somebody experiencing trauma in the present moment, you know we're looking for trauma responses. You could say that person is in fight or flight or freeze and flop.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Now the optimum way of moving through the world and staying within our window of Tolerance is to be in parasympathetic. You know, this is rest and digest, this is calm. We can take an information, things can happen to us, but we can never get our way through that and not be debilitated by it. So what we know is what neuroscience tells us. If we are in a green space or we are in a blue space or we are providing ourselves opportunities to be still, so potentially in whatever environment feels safe. Oh, when we sort of really allow ourselves to be still and sort of maybe focusing on our breath or Getting out of our heads and into, maybe, the natural space and just sort of witnessing little things Maybe you're watching a bug on a leaf or something, something, very, very small we can sort of support shift into our parasympathetic nervous system. Not always, I'm saying this is a beautiful tool. It doesn't work for everybody and we have to be in the right place at the right time and being guided in that can be really helpful For someone experiencing trauma.

Speaker 1: 7:47

I think this is what we're trying to strike. So with the podcast I try got out into the mountains, which Originally helped me with my PTSD symptoms, but one that it doesn't. One modality doesn't suit. Everybody does it and there's so much there and that's why things like the Nature Therapy Conference and they have just been to adventure mind this weekend there's lots of people from different areas or sort of striving towards improving mental well-being, mental health, but without particularly going down the clinical path.

Speaker 2: 8:18

I'm not anti antidepressants. This has been something that you know I talk about a lot with clients in therapy is in a in a space and time. If that is something that is supportive of you putting one foot in front of the other and Enabling you to get out of bed in the morning and open the front door and step through that, there's a place for that and we welcome it. But the idea is that you know it's not a standalone course of care. I guess it's about how we can do that and replicate that in other ways and trying to sort of Think about being out in nature. What are the? What are the benefits on our physiological being? How can we find more of that good stuff? That's, that's natural.

Speaker 2: 8:55

I mean, I guess there's some stigma around taking medication and people don't want to take medication because there's a fear of being Dependent on it and there's like maybe they sometimes they feel a lack of control in that and that's not a nice place to be. So I guess being out in nature for a lot of my clients there's a. It's almost about empowerment I can do this, this, this supports and helps me feel well and I am in control of it. That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 9:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah so what do you? Say I mean we could use, or somebody could use, a variety of different modalities or and a combination of medication and meditation or Something else you know oh yeah, I mean gosh, if we all have an imaginary first aid kit or toolbox around us, you know what would be in it.

Speaker 2: 9:39

But again, it's very individual and it's finding your own thing. You know it's one size does not fit all and it's about Having a bit of patience with yourself because it works for that group of people. People can become quite self-critical. I tried that and it didn't work. I can't meditate, I can't possibly do that. Yeah, we got into a negative cycle really, and within that then there's a shaming of, well, I'm not able to do it. So therefore, maybe I'm not good enough, or why can't I access the well-being elements of that when other people can? So it's about finding your own thing, but having a patience with that. So not everybody likes going up a mountain, not everybody likes going for a cold water swim. So what are the little things that you could potentially do that are really achievable and Resonate with you?

Speaker 1: 10:22

Yeah, and maybe I said using a combination of things.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Yeah, my clients would be would say that they have a combination of different things. They're utilized to feel better, yeah, and some of that can be medication and some of that can be getting out into nature and some of that could be other things. It could be cooking is their thing, that feels quite meditative or therapeutic for them. It could be other things, but there's coping mechanisms and it's okay to have a crutch as long as you can notice. That's what it is personal view.

Speaker 1: 10:48

I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding about the word meditation. Myself and some people would imagine, if I've got a Meditation practice, that I'm sat somewhere Dressed in ropes with incense burning and doing some chanting and things, which I suppose it can be. But also I mean what I'd be fairly describing a meditation as in something where you're present and you present, like you said, like you alluded to that with look at watching a ladybird on a boat on a Leaf, or something like that.

Speaker 2: 11:13

It can be anything. There's a beautiful thing called the sit spot, and people have been doing this for Thousand millions of years. I'm that this isn't just something that we've devised now People finding a space to sit. So you know, a lot of my clients will sort of take that away, something that they will use. It's a protocol for them for good well-being, and it's something that they Incorporate into their week and it might be that on a like a regular route that they might walk, or with the, you know, with the dog, they make a real intention to leave the dog at home.

Speaker 2: 11:41

They have a tech free half an hour or whatever it might be, whatever time they can carve out, and they will choose somewhere that they feel drawn to and they'll just take the time to be in that place and they'll observe there's no real intention other than to notice what is going on around them and there's the real stillness that there's the beautiful shift Into Paris, in pathetic, and also there's all the other things that come. So then you're inviting things to come in, aren't you? Then you know, as soon as you're getting out of the head and into the body, the space, and it's about noticing what that might be and you know, not judging that necessarily, just like acknowledging oh okay, so there's that, and if we're in therapy and we're doing that, then that's the thing we explore. It's beautiful to notice these things. Yeah, can we start looking?

Speaker 1: 12:23

to what, what's going on in the body and the mind, be as scientific as you want. So that's different between therapy outlaws and therapy indoors.

Speaker 2: 12:34

That's a big question, isn't it? I am no neuroscientist, I know what I know, but I guess what's going on is that I mean, if we can talk about the experience first, then I think that's probably where we start. For me, I guess a good place to start is why do I choose to work outside and not indoors? And that's because I feel more present and, I guess, alive when I'm out. If you're looking at another beautiful theory is like the biofilia hypothesis says that we have this innate desire in us as human beings to affiliate with the more than human world, and so, of normal to normal, traditional sort of the clinical setting of therapy being indoors really is interested in the human to human bonds and connections and issues, whereas I guess when you're taking therapy outside, it's much more than that. It becomes about inviting in therapy as, like, a core facilitator or dynamic third partner. It's about your relationship with the more human world then as well. So it becomes much broader, much bigger, and the perspective changes. Everything changes when you take therapy outside.

Speaker 2: 13:41

There's so many beautiful metaphors in nature for life. When you're looking at it as a core facilitator, oh, it brings the mirror right here for what we're feeling inside. So there's lots of things you might witness and perceive as going on and changing and evolving in the natural world, which is ever changing and continuing as a real sort of that's what's happening in my internal process, and when that lands for a client, when we lift off the lid and shine the light in there, it's beautiful, it's like a real moment, the special, and you don't necessarily get those indoors and nature offers a real well, it's less intense, there's a real gentleness to being outside. It can feel really sort of oppressive being inside working with somebody and especially as you are working with trauma, it can be too overwhelming and it can be a little bit debilitating for people. When they're outside there's lots of beautiful natural distractions which feels as it should be.

Speaker 2: 14:38

So we might be talking particularly about something that's really distressing or somebody might feel triggered by a smell or a sound or whatever it might be, and natural distraction will happen. So like a bird might just sort of move at that time, or the wind might just sort of blow, branching a certain way at that time, and it offers a really beautiful gentle distraction which feels really human. But then we will explore that then. Ah, I noticed when that happened, we stopped, or I noticed when that happened, you moved away and you shifted your body away from me and I'm just wondering what was happening in your body at that time. So we'll think about semantically what's going on, so how changes in the environment affect us on a biological level. And it's very fluid and it moves all the time and we go with that like life.

Speaker 1: 15:26

Yeah, and often personal experience especially since obviously speaking a lot about mental health is that when we're outdoors, people tend to open up with conversations and you sort of think, well, you probably want to have this conversation, just saying those. It seems to be this it's like dropping a wall in it, dropping a movie from behind this curtain, and people then start discussing their problems.

Speaker 2: 15:46

Yeah, and I think you're thinking about the science of that. What's going on in the brain when we're out and we are gently moving and that sort of thing. I'm really trying to consider what's going on. There's something about the movement of the body as well. You know, we think about if we're kind of gently walking along and that sort of left right, left right movement. That is bilateral stimulation. When that's happening, you know I was sort of both sides of our brain, both hemispheres, are getting a really beautiful balance. So it's not just, you know, the logical planning focus side that is in charge. You know your creative, intuitive side, your problem solving side, you know your reasoning, your attention, that sort of comes into play a little bit more and that can be really really helpful when you are working through something that's really difficult and you might be feeling stuck in that. Then of course, that forward movement is a beautiful metaphor for clients if they are exploring or moving through and out of something. And also the bilateral stimulation is, you know, it's increasing those neurotransmitters. All that beautiful, that happy chemical, serotonin, dopamine, oh, floods us, floods the brain, floods the body. So I do think that's why there's an opening when we are outside.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Haley Marshall. She is an outdoor psychotherapist and somebody that I've trained with, and she talks about realms and portals being opened and accessed. When you are out, particularly in a woodland, there's something around that environment that has got a real sort of. There's an atmosphere, there's some magic going on in there and when you are exploring you know all of whatever a client might bring and it's always a jewel. There's an opening of realms and there's a shift in the body and you feel it, especially when you are experiencing something together.

Speaker 2: 17:31

And that's the other important thing is, what's so key for me about coming out of a room and into a natural space is that you flatten the hierarchy, and that's so important. It's important for me as I've been a client before and you know, ultimately you're going for help, you are going to seek support from a professional. So already the power and control it's the balance isn't just right, is it? And I'm very, very mindful that I want to be able to afford power and control to someone that maybe doesn't feel like they've got much, or how do we give some of that back? So, flatten the hierarchy and as soon as you come out as a therapist into a space, you are seen in a different way. You're fallible. You know I get cold, I'm going to struggle. If we're going up that muddy bank and doing these things together as well, there's an experiencing together which really gives you a shift in that sort of relational debt and there's a magic in that, in the being seen together and experiencing together, and I think that's really key in working outdoors.

Speaker 1: 18:29

From personal experience, being sat in a counselling with a counsellor for six months, it took quite a while to build up a sort of a relationship of trust as well, where you know talking about things that happened to me in an incident that caused PTSD then, and it was a the actual and fully enough, I'm just thinking that's a little bit of a moment there that the actual sat in a four-walled room with a desk, talking to a counsellor.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Although the chairs were put at certain angles, it absolutely reminded me of being in the police station after this. This guy died, you know, and it's just like.

Speaker 2: 19:00

Those are the triggers, aren't they? And they can be very subtle or they can take you off your feet. And when I'm in initial assessment stage with a client again coming very specifically back to that trauma-informed approach is we need to explore where you feel safe, and what feels safe for me may not feel safe for you, and that is the bedrock. That's part of like the safety which is really key. And that's not to say that even if you explore what sort of natural space a client feels safe in, they might still feel unsafe within it, but you've explored and you've laid a really safe foundation for if that happens.

Speaker 2: 19:37

So that's the other thing that you know in terms of risk assessing. When you move outside, you're not just risk assessing the landscape, you're risk assessing what else is going to be happening and how you might manage that. So there's a safety. You know the therapeutic frame changes when you bring therapy outside. So you've got lots of different things to consider that you wouldn't necessarily work indoors and that's like sort of adverse weather conditions. Or you know how different confidentiality looks and all the different ways to be mindful of that and how you work with that.

Speaker 1: 20:09

You mentioned the woodland there. This is something I've actually witnessed in people where we've walked through, because I've done a little bit of reading about forest bathing and this is what we actually sort of touched on at the Nature Therapy Conference, wasn't it? You'll plan where it took back in your session and I've actually seen people. You know we've gone out and we're walking through a bit of woodland and people start noticing fungi and different, you know different trees, birds, and you just see this relaxation come over them and they will tell you. They will tell you I feel really relaxed after that. I think people seem to seem to not understand or maybe I'm really too much into it about, about, you know, being in these natural environments and we are part of nature, as I keep trying to say.

Speaker 2: 20:52

We're not separate to nature over there and you know it is. It's a sort of there's a real shift that needs to happen. And when I was listening to your last podcast with Yolo and he was talking about children and schools and education and oh, I felt it when he was saying it, he saw right, it's a it's a huge chunk missing and it's integral. It's such an important part of who we are as human beings. We evolved in nature, you know. And this sort of separation, this like disconnect, is where psychological distress arises and we know it because this is our sort of we're in this way of working. But how do you then impress that upon people who won't know, without shaming them? You know so, without saying, well, you should know this and you should treat the world in which you live better. But actually, if that's not being your experience in as a child, growing up and having those people around you to sort of impress that on you, why would you know? So? Then, how can we educate people? If you love the land, it will love you back. How do we do that? And and it's in schools, isn't it? And it's, it's a massive gap you know we're teaching kids about.

Speaker 2: 21:57

Oh, basically, we're teaching kids how to become really fatigued. If we look at that, that part of our brain, you know that it's being overused and overworked. And you know, let's face it even as you move into adulthood and work, the pinnacle it is to be exhausted. You know there's real people think to work hard is is where it should be, and the harder and more exhausted you are, the better you are being. And we forget, don't with it. We need rest and relaxation and recalibration and and all of that. So taking things down a notch and accessing things in the natural world and slowing down is quite a radical thing to do, but it's something we need to be teaching our children again.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Obviously I've not got any formal background in mental health or anything like that, but a lot of the sort of research that I've read it's still in some sort of relaxation or just some time, just time for young people to be young people. Then they're generally going to be more productive anyway, maybe in a different way, but you're more open minded and oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:57

We know there's lots of research in the mark out there that says you know, when you take children outside the, the sort of they relax. You know they've done MRI scans on on children with neurodiversity. You know that demonstrates when they've spent time in a green space, those parts of the brains, you know, are getting a chance to rest. We know this stuff works but, however, we're just very slow at implementing it where it needs to be implemented it. You know you've got the NHS five steps for well-being. This is an amazing manifesto for how to be healthy and it should be a golden thread that's woven throughout every part of society connecting with other people well, we know how positive that is. That social participation now that can support of support, empowerment and resilience.

Speaker 2: 23:42

Being physically active well, we know how important that is. You know you don't have to be an athlete, but to be moving this body is like the healthiest thing we can do. You know learning new skills okay, well, that can be learning a route on a walk. That you don't have to learn how to use a map or a compass, when not saying that on a very basic level, what does it feel like to take shoes and socks off and know how amazing it is to feel grounded to the earth and the benefits of that giving to others. Well, isn't that beautiful and paying attention to the present moment. So the mindfulness stuff, you know, these are the steps, five steps to well-being. But does everybody know that? You know and then do. If it is, you know something that we want to be pushing. When do we introduce that to children?

Speaker 1: 24:22

early on, I would suggest as early as possible, I might, for my mind, because then we're not yeah, then we're not trying to repair damages being caused oh yeah, is it.

Speaker 1: 24:32

We need prevention yeah, although I don't want to be putting you out of work, but, yeah, can we do the? Can we do the prevention better than the care? But rather than looking at the cure I mean it's an expense on society, isn't it they? They expense and the sort of size of the mental health issue in the population, yeah, is ridiculous. And you know now, waiting list for about three years. You know, through it it's, I mean, three people. Some people have not got that three years to wait.

Speaker 2: 24:59

That's the sad thing oh, I would agree, I would absolutely agree. I mean, I'm fortunate enough to to work I mean, I see private clients in lots of different capacities, but working in a particular organization, we are in a position where we don't have a long waiting list because we're quite a new therapeutic service and that feels like a really beautiful gift to be able to offer the idea that you don't have to wait for help when you are in crisis. And yeah, you know you have children on the waiting list for CAMHS and LCAS for 11 months, you know, waiting for an assessment and potential diagnosis of a neurodivergence, and that child and family are surviving every day.

Speaker 1: 25:39

They're just existing, waiting for that support and it just doesn't feel okay I've read quite a lot about Neural Pathways and basically if we are somebody struggling and they kind of continue to struggle, then negative Neural Pathways are getting a lot stronger. Even someone as simple as me can work out. As you know, if we get in it getting early, then well, obviously we're helping them quicker and it's not going to be such a long process I agree.

Speaker 2: 26:03

And also, you know you think about what will be attractive to the government or sort of like. You know the NHS and it's saving money. And actually, if you think, if, if all of these, we think about green prescriptions, you know, social prescribing, if if we started to really ramp this sort of stuff up, this getting out into nature and the benefits as alongside other sort of as we said earlier other interventions, in 20 years, imagine how much money that we could have saved our NHS. We could be into the millions, you know.

Speaker 2: 26:36

You know in Japan they've been doing this stuff for decades. You know they have designated forest bathing sites and you'll go to the doctor and you might not be prescribed medication or you might, but you'll also be prescribed 12 sessions of forest bathing. Well then, that's something that you can do for the rest of your life. That's free. It's just knowing how to access it. But once you know you can't, um no. So then there's a seeking out of what makes you feel better, which then again is a real empowering thing for some people just back onto the young people.

Speaker 1: 27:08

You've got a background in safeguarding and dealing with trauma in young people. How did you get into that?

Speaker 2: 27:13

if you don't mind me asking my background is in safeguarding, but previous to that I was I was really into sort of the arts photography and video and I really loved doing that and I found that I used that as a tool for self-inquiry which was quite enlightening at the time to sort of work through some of my early childhood yeah, traumatic experiences that affected my family, and I really enjoyed that way of being and trying to understand what things meant for me and really important to make to make meaning of things that happened. Yeah, I kind of was invited to start doing some sort of community arts with sort of different groups of people and I found I really loved it. So I did that for a couple of years and as I was doing that I met some people that were setting up a child exploitation specialist exploitation team and they invited me to come and be a part of that and I would work with the young people who would experience or who at risk of being exploited, like sexually exploited or criminally exploited, and I loved it. So it was a real youth work perspective. That's where we were kind of coming from how to engage children anywhere that was really gentle, wasn't intimidating, and I did that work through creative strategies, really through art and I saw that really opened them up and I saw that walking and talking with them really opened them up. I knew then that was a way I wanted to work in, whatever I did, because it was gentle and it felt the right way of doing things.

Speaker 2: 28:44

Where a lot of other organizations were needed to get information from these children because ultimately we want to put people in prison. You know we're looking at protecting children from outside of the family who will harm them. So you know there was a gathering of information and intelligence. How do we turn that into prosecution then to safeguard other children? But ultimately, when you're working with a child, it's about what's in front of you, what are they presenting with at the moment, and working with that.

Speaker 2: 29:11

So there's a real here and now element to it, and I did it for a long time and then I was offered the opportunity to work with the parents later, and I continued to do that now, delivering therapy to parents whose children have been exploited, but noticing that that way of working was the best way of working, inviting in a real, I suppose, trauma, informed way of working and shame, sensitive way of working and treating people like jewels because they are, you know, and they bring this stuff and it's very brave to let somebody into your home or to let somebody into the darkest places that you hold is really brave sometimes, and sometimes it's out of desperation and necessity. But I realized there that the waiting list for therapy were too long and it didn't feel okay. So I guess maybe seven, eight years ago I decided to retrain then as a counselor, as a person centered, but never with the intention to work inside, because I'd seen how amazing and taking children and families outside was and the benefits of that on the on our whole physiological being.

Speaker 1: 30:13

So when you're talking there, you get I'm assuming it's correct if you're wrong, but you find it. It's simply finding it really rewarding. I could imagine why Would I be right with that?

Speaker 2: 30:23

Oh, it's a privilege. It's a privilege to be able to support families through this, because when a child is at risk of or is being exploited, it's obliterating for that family. And you think about working with human beings that might have experienced early childhood trauma and some people bring that but also they are experiencing trauma in the moment it's happening. Their child might be going missing from home all the time or they might feel really sort of judged or under the spotlight from services that are there to support them, and all of that can be retraumatising. And what we do see is that a lot of people look at the behaviours of those responses but they don't actually peel back the curtain to see what's behind it. And we are able to do that in our position. It's a real privilege to be able to advocate for people in that way, because not everybody is trauma-informed. It's okay to say you are, but I wonder if that lives and breathes in the room with a person. That's the stuff I want to know.

Speaker 1: 31:19

I've sort of set this up. I'll be honest On the flip side of it being rewarding and the good work, and we don't have to go into specifics of cases, but some of the stuff you hear, or some of the stuff you find out, must be, it's got to have an effect on yourself, would you say. And how do you handle that?

Speaker 2: 31:35

Yeah, it's a good question. Actually it's a really good question. It changes and it evolves, very much like life and it's knowing what works for me. So I like running and I like getting out and I like walking and I like being out for long periods of time. I notice when I'm out and I've been on a walk or I've been running, there's a recalibration in me.

Speaker 2: 31:58

I change my physiology by accessing a woodland, but I know what I'm doing. It's intentional. So I'm going in there to inhale the fighting sides. I'm going in there to shift into parasympathetic. I know what I'm doing, it's very intentional and that's what I do. I use what I know and I practice what I preach and, yeah, this body is the greatest instrument we'll ever own and I go with that then. So I think, right, what does it need? Not up here? What do I need? What does this need? But part of that is then working with others. That's what I need. I love working with other people and talking, because that's how I explore and make meaning of my world. So I seek that out. Sometimes I seek out this islands, because that's really key, isn't it as well? But I go with what my body's craving and then I wonder why I'm drawn to it and I get in a lot of cold water.

Speaker 1: 32:54

Oh really, yeah, I mean, that's been an exposure as well, something I've done and I'll do.

Speaker 2: 32:59

Did you like it, but do you like it? I still do. I do it every day.

Speaker 1: 33:04

Yeah, I don't like have a five minute plunge every day, but I do. I make sure I get in the shower and I start with cold and then I'll go on to warm afterwards.

Speaker 2: 33:14

It's a beautiful thing because you know we're activating the vagus nerve, you know we're increasing our vagal tone and if we do that then we can shift into parasympathetic, you know. So anything you can do to activate that vagal tone or to increase that vagal tone is going to be supportive for your well-being. There's nothing better than, you know, a group of people squealing as they get into cold water, but there's a joy in that there's a shared experience and in that isn't there, which, again, is really beautiful. There's something about experiencing those things with other people as well. That is beautiful. There's something in that, the group dynamic. It's really fascinating because you're all experiencing something together, aren't you? But it will be slightly different for everybody. There's something great about a group of people submerging together.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Yeah, I think you've got that. You've got the element of community going on, but like an unconscious bonded, haven't you as well?

Speaker 2: 34:09

Oh, it's an unconscious bonding. What a great way of putting it. And I was. I was smiling when I listened to one of your podcast A Cart member where you brought it but you talked about Dacca Keltner and his sort of book on awe and wonder. I love that guy listening to his Science of Happiness podcast.

Speaker 1: 34:28

Right, I'll put that down, because that'll be something else for me to listen to.

Speaker 2: 34:31

Yeah, but you know the way he talks about awe and wonder oh, that is that? So when you're thinking about those experiences of being in a group or even being by yourself, when you are experiencing awe and wonder when it? You know there's, there's variations of it and for me personally, it can sweep you off your feet or it can just give you a gentle nudge, you know, but it's in those moments something happens. But when we're experiencing the awe, all those beautiful neurotransmitters are getting releasing those gorgeous happy chemicals, that dopamine. Why would you not keep chasing the awe? And he talks about that? Doesn't he seek out the moments of awe?

Speaker 1: 35:10

Yeah, I think it's something that I've I true believer in. I felt like overwhelming awe in Patagonia once just looking at glaciers and I I was on my knees basically, so I'll be.

Speaker 2: 35:20

Oh, tell me about that.

Speaker 1: 35:23

I think we're just like, oh, I don't know, I don't know what it was, but we're in, we're actually in Chile and we've come to done the W it's called the W trek and then at the end of it there's a big glacial lake and bits of glacial floating and that you know the blueness of that of that water, with a white glacier, and we're all. I remember us all being on a pebble beach and it just I couldn't help myself. It was just like wow, this overwhelming feeling. But in that book he references belonging as well, doesn't it? Belonging to the landscape, and that was like this is what. This is what I want.

Speaker 2: 35:57

Yeah, and you? It gets you out of an ego state into an eco-centric way of being. You know you are, you are immersed, but it's more than immersed, isn't it? It's it's you are part of, you are nature, it's that. It's a, a remembering, a real awakening of. I've witnessed it. I mean to have that experience yourself is something, but it's also awe-inspiring to see somebody else experiencing awe and having that sort of oh. It transcends what we know.

Speaker 2: 36:30

I mean, we were on a trip recently and there's four of us girls and we run together and we train together and we're kind of work as a little unit, each bringing something else that adds really something beautiful to the group. And we'd been on this like multi-day trip and oh, it'd been hard, you know, a lot of elevation, a lot of carrying these heavy bags and a lot of pressure with time to get in and all this sort of stuff. And we were on the second day and we'd had this pea soup of a day. You know, you're up in like Mont Blanc and you can't actually see what you've come to see and there's an acceptance of things as they are. Well, it's okay, it's not meant to be today, we aren't supposed to see everything and throughout the war the wind would blow like the clouds out of the way and the peaks would slowly reveal themselves and then as quickly they came they would go.

Speaker 2: 37:19

It was one of those days, really untangibly you couldn't put your finger on the feeling, but we were wet and, you know, we were all wrapped up and we kind of got to this beautiful opening and we weren't really expecting it. You know, we'd kind of turned a bit of a quarter and we came around this sort of this peak and then the whole world was before us. It was like painting it was. It was something else and we were separate slightly and my friend was in the foreground and she won't mind me talking about this, I'm sure she's in the foreground here and I'm set back in. The other two are over here and there was a deaf silence.

Speaker 2: 37:57

You know, birds was nothing and she just opened right up and to see the shift in her was absolutely, oh, what privileged. To bear witness to that in that moment that was oh. You know, sometimes there aren't words to describe the feeling, it's just, it transcends what I can explain things. And there's a writer called Catherine May and in her book Enchantment, she talks about this thing, this notion of a higher often as a sacred moment. It's attached to religion, but actually it can be attached to any sort of beautiful moment like that, and I'm witnessing this higher often, but I'm witnessing a human having a higher often. It was just one of the most beautiful moments of my life. It was such a privilege to see it happening.

Speaker 1: 38:48

I think I'm sort of a fallen. Very fortunate, I spoke about this at the. I was speaking at a British Association in a National Malmere Leaders Conference that's a mouthful there On Friday night and I didn't really make any conscious decisions to go into the world of mountain leadership and follow mountain training schemes. It was something sort of unrolled, unravelled and has led me to where I am. But I do actually see this quite a lot and I do feel privileged to see it and it's always after me on a mountain top though we're walking down. I took a group, a little well being, what group that we do? To raise money for the podcast actually. And early morning and there's a deer crossing there, you know, and people not they're not expecting to see deer in a sort of semi urban environment and it's like, oh, this, you know, it's much the same as in it. So it's, it's that moment of wow, you know, and bonding connection with nature.

Speaker 2: 39:36

Oh, yeah, but you know, it's so true that Mark and you know, going back to Decakelton, what he calls that shared experiencing of all, wonder, oh, what does he call it? Collective evervescence? Wow, that's it. I mean, how it's beautiful and it explains it just. Yeah, it's right, there's a group of you together and you're experiencing it together and there's something that happens on a biological level at the same time and, oh, there's something else present then, but it's collective evervescence and I think, yeah, give me some more of that.

Speaker 1: 40:12

Yeah, it's these sort of once you say it's like a spiritual movement, people like, oh well, that sounds all a bit hippie-dippy. You know, I always get I get described as hippie-dippy all the time now, but I'm quite happy with that because I'm still. I'm still here, whereas at some point if I hadn't gone through all this, then I might not. You know, I found that sort of out into nature, then I might not have been. Yeah, it could have gone very wrong and it's okay for it to be spiritual.

Speaker 2: 40:39

It's okay for it to be however it feels for you and people who. This is the disconnect, isn't it this way? It comes back to remembering and relearning what you, we all, have always innately known. It's inherently part of you, know who we are, but there's, there's been an unlearning of, so people look at maybe this way of working or being as other. I don't get it. So I'm going to sort of approach it with a bit of humour, because I don't kind of get that spiritual side, and actually that's okay, but it's the education side and that increasing people's knowledge that this stuff is who we are. So the opening up is that's the spiritual. That's the spiritual for me is when there's a shift and you feel it oh, that's been a moment.

Speaker 1: 41:31

Excellent. So could you be able to give listeners a few little tips of what they could do to maintain their mental health? Now, if people need assistance with a mental health that's different to maintain isn't there. Should see, I don't believe people should seek help, you know, and don't be afraid of saying real. I think this is what we're trying to do with the podcast is try and break down these barriers. You know, if I broke my ankle, I won't go play football on a sunny morning, but if my mind was broken, it's what's the same, isn't it? We're carrying an injury, so how can we maintain it? And then, what's the what's the process of seeking help? Perfectly, come to yourself.

Speaker 2: 42:09

So well, yeah, the process of seeking professional help is you know you, you would always have to be. I would be really mindful that you've got to be looking in the right place and that's got to be a sort of governing body. If you're looking for therapy, the best place is to go online and you're looking at the BACP, the British Association of Counselors and Psychotherapists, you've got to know somebody's qualified and trained. That's number one. It needs to be safe. You need to get a proper list of people that are safe and you need to know about what approach you would like. You might want a really direct therapy, like cognitive behavioural therapy. You might want strategies and you might need different ways of thinking if that's going to be something that's helpful for you. Or you might want something really gentle and non-direct, which is person-centered or a gentle form of talking therapy. So find out what you, what resonates with you first, and if it's about just keeping well and accessing what's free and on your doorstep, potentially, hopefully, people have got access to sort of a natural space and you don't have to be able to drive, you know you don't have to drive in the car and get to these wilderness places. It's beautiful if you can do that, and how privileged are we that we can. But even if you've got small yard with some flowers in it, if you've got a local field or a part that you can just go and access, you know the real tiny little things you can do. You know, if I give you three things, okay, you could take shoes and socks off and get on the grass and scrunch your toes up like this. It's the quickest way to get out of you heading into your body. Let's do a bit of grounding and be really mindful about that. As it feel on the soles of your feet. How does it feel, you know, when you are drying off your feet and then putting your shoes and your socks back on, just sort of really noticing what's happening to your body, as you've done. That is a really nice thing and very achievable thing to do. If you can't even do that, I would say look up. If you're outside, please look up. I have a thing for clouds. They knock me off my feet. I've been known to be driving to work and I've had to pull over and stop the car and get out, so I am stopped in my tracks. Those are the moments that you, you should let take over you, you know, succumb to those moments because they're magic. So look up and just notice what's going on around you. You know, it's a beautiful way again of getting out the head and into the body.

Speaker 2: 44:30

There's another beautiful thing called resourcing. I don't know if you've you've heard of that, but it's about remembering place. It doesn't have to be a place. It can be a person, somebody that feels really safe for you. But if you're feeling particularly fragile or you're needing a bit of poor, resourcing is a great way to do it and I use it sometimes.

Speaker 2: 44:48

If I am getting up here and I can feel myself going into sort of sympathetic, how do I bring my shift back into rest and digest? Is I close my eyes if it feels safe to do so? That's key, and I imagine that I am back in whatever place. I've got my place. I'm not going to tell you where that is now, but if it's my place and I know where things are and it becomes very vivid for me and I can see the colour and the texture and I'm, what sounds could I hear? If I'm there and I am there, that's me in my safe place and that's something that's a real lovely tool that you can utilise. Yeah, but those would be my three simple things that you can take away.

Speaker 1: 45:29

I was just thinking then, when you were saying about your place I think mine was penny again, you know, and I used to, just when I would have been a bad patch, when I would have been, instead of reaching it, going to the shop for four cans of beer, jumping the car and go walk up there in whatever weather and isn't that important in whatever weather?

Speaker 2: 45:45

yeah, because sometimes it's good to feel that your body's being bashed about a bit by the elements.

Speaker 1: 45:51

Well, it's one thing that I say on the, when I do the mountain leader courses for mountain training and the providers that there's a work for, is that you know we'll be out there, because then dates are set and it's lashing it down but you're actually stealing it out. You're stealing a day that other people wouldn't go out in, yeah, and you're also explaining stuff, moving your parameters on it, but then becomes comfortable.

Speaker 2: 46:11

So yeah, but there is something, mark. So we said about leaning into the discomfort, finding your edge. That's. The other thing we haven't even talked about is the finding your edge and why that's so beneficial.

Speaker 1: 46:25

I've got another five minutes, if you want.

Speaker 2: 46:26

Oh yeah, well, I have this thing about the edge and you know you find your edges in different ways or places. There's something's been particularly physically hard. You know this is like the mind, body stuff is like okay, you mind might feel like you want to give up, or it might be your body, but actually there's something to be said about continuing and pushing through. And let's just see what happens if I go a little bit further. What then you know? And that can be getting in cold water, that can be carrying on when you're absolutely at the end of your physical ability on a run, or it could be when you've got to do presentation or it's. It can be when you're coming into counseling. Oh, you meet an edge, so something about that, and how beautiful it can be to watch somebody jumping off that. What are the benefits of that? Is there's a resilience that they suddenly realize, oh, I can do hard things. And then we're on the journey yeah, it was part of that.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Growth in a personal opinion will be you know people that are going through mental health issues or have been, then you know you grow from that. I think I I mean it's personal opinion I think that people who have survived some mental health issues actually got a strength around them. I'm not sure I do. I'm not sure I'd have got through COVID if I hadn't gone through what I've been through before yeah, also, I think.

Speaker 2: 47:42

Well, I hear you're talking about post-traumatic growth, or what I would call post-traumatic growth, and yeah it, you do feel there's a resilience that maybe you didn't have before because you've had to move through adversity. Not everybody gets there, eh, you know, and we, we know that, don't we? I've had experience of suicide in my family, so I understand when people feel the resilience and then they don't, and it's fascinating, isn't it, why some do and some don't, and what is that about? And there's something to be explored there. But it's um, post-traumatic growth is a very beautiful thing. It's about noticing and having glimmers and having a really, you know, having a support network is is key. It's much more difficult if a human being doesn't have that. But then I wonder if nature can be that where it might not be other humans. You know, I do see the natural world very much like that. It's supportive, it holds and contains and, yeah, I wonder if that can be the partner that you need when it's not a human.

Speaker 1: 48:38

I'm definitely agree with that. I'm a big advocate of being out, causing, getting out there and getting out with people, as well as getting out by myself. To be fair, how can people find you getting such a research, what you do?

Speaker 2: 48:49

ah, well, okay, so I have a website. It's rewildingoutdoortherapycouk. It can contact me on there if they wished to, and obviously there's so much research and papers out there and other practitioners that are doing this sort of thing. But I would definitely look up nature and therapy by Martin Jordan. That's an amazing book and he's pretty much a roadmap of how to do this thing and to do it safely and ethically. I would definitely look at Haley Marshall and the centre of for natural reflection. All this stuff is online and I would just start there and then see where it takes you thank you, stacy, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1: 49:26

It's very informative and as I knew it would be, and it's good to be able to have someone who's working professionally backing up what me and Yolo were saying.

Speaker 2: 49:36

There's a rant, I think well, I've loved every minute of this and I could actually talk about this all day. I just love it. So thank you very much for having me no, you're very welcome, thank you bye.