E46: Redefining Mental Strength: Stu Skinner's Voyage of Mental Resilience

When Stu Skinner embarked on a cycling journey across Southeast Asia, little did he know that it would mark the beginning of an expedition into the depths of his own mental health and pave the way for the Head Outside Awards. Our latest conversation with Stu is not just a narrative of recovery and discovery; it's a testament to the outdoors' profound influence on our inner worlds. He shares his transformative experiences with bipolar disorder, PTSD, and social anxiety, and how these once debilitating challenges have now become channels for advocating mental well-being through nature's embrace. His story is one of loss, endurance, and ultimate triumph—a beacon for anyone who's ever felt overwhelmed by the shadows of their mind.

The pandemic may have cast a glaring spotlight on our collective mental health, but it also unearthed the undeniable sanctuary offered by the great outdoors. Stu doesn't just recount his personal tales of resilience; he illuminates the steps taken to weave mental health first aid into the fabric of outdoor education. The Head Outside Awards, originated amidst global uncertainty, stand as pillars celebrating those who champion the symbiotic relationship between mental wellness and nature. As we unravel the intricacies of Stu's vision, it's clear that the dialogue around mental health is evolving, with avenues like parkour and equine therapy widening the path to healing for diverse communities.

We cap off our exchange with Stu on an empowering note, heralding mental health diagnoses as 'superpowers' that can be harnessed to achieve greatness. From the heights of the Appalachian Trail to the lessons learned along the GR10, Stu's journey exemplifies the strength that comes from embracing our unique mental landscapes. His perspective on bipolar disorder, autism, and ADHD as catalysts for extraordinary accomplishments is not just inspiring—it's a rallying cry for all of us to reconceptualize our approach to mental health. Join us as we delve into a dialogue that celebrates the complex, yet wondrous tapestry of the human mind through the lens of adventure and the great outdoors.

https://www.headoutsideawards.com/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

So hello, stu Skinner of the Head Outside Awards, Welcome to the podcast. Would you give us a brief introduction about yourself and the award, if you want?

Speaker 2: 0:07

So my name's Stu Skinner. I'm the founder of the Head Outside Awards. I set them up back in 2022, but there was quite a long process to get them off the ground. Outside the Head Outside Awards, I'm a mental health campaigner. I run a mental health charity and deliver a lot of mental health first aid training. I'm also a seasoned expedition leader and outdoor educator, so wherever I can, I try and combine my passion for the outdoors with mental health and that's why you're here, because that's what we believe in.

Speaker 1: 0:33

We do quite a lot of outdoor sort of focused podcasts, because that's that was my path and getting back into it, let's go a little bit more in depth about you, about yourself, your background and how you've sort of arrived at this. I'd like to know about the charity as well, before we start talking about the awards, if that's okay.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Yeah, sure, I guess I live with bipolar disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder and social anxiety disorder. I guess I went through something very traumatic when I was about 19 years old and I kind of did my best to survive and use what I could to survive and that looked like you know, self-harm for a lot of time. I guess I just wasn't taught any kind of coping strategies or how to deal with that trauma or those intrusive thoughts. I survived as well as I could. But you know, things didn't work out too well for me and I guess my life unraveled very quickly, eventually led to a suicide attempt. I was very lucky to survive that suicide attempt. I lost my best friend to suicide when I was 21. And I guess from that moment in time I decided to dedicate my life to normalizing conversations about mental health.

Speaker 2: 1:33

I recovered from that suicide attempt and, I guess, depression by going on a four and a half thousand mile cycling trip through Southeast Asia which I guess completely transformed my life. Not only did it change my life, I guess it saved my life as well and that's why we, I guess, fostered a passion for the outdoors, decided to become an expedition leader, did my mountain leader training, flew out to Belize, did my expedition leader training up there. But, yeah, I became an expedition leader. It brought me a lot of joy.

Speaker 2: 1:58

But I soon found that I was supporting people with their mental health needs as much as their physical health needs. So you know, I've dealt with, you know, scorpion stings, trancher bites, cardiac arrest, broken limbs, perforated ulcers, all sorts. But I found that you know there's young people struggling with self-harm, anxiety, eating disorders, panic attacks, you know, thoughts of suicide, and I've never really been given a toolkit on how to support, you know, young people with those needs. So I was like wouldn't it be great if there was this thing called mental health first aid? And this was back in 2009. Came back to england, googled it, found out the department of health had introduced mental health first aid into england, set up a charity so that I could drive, or try and drive, mental health first aid into the outdoor industry.

Speaker 1: 2:38

So that's really how my charity came about a lot, loads of things to talk about there isn't there.

Speaker 1: 2:42

This is something that I try and express, because I still teach ml training, or mountain leader training and mountain leader assessments, and one of the bits of advice I'll give to people is or the candidates is that they're far more likely to come into contact with somebody with a mental health issue than they are of ever experienced some physical injury while on the mountain. Now, while we've got to be prepared for the physical injuries and we do the first day of training, which is compulsory, otherwise your reward's not valid, yeah, I'm just going to ask you what's your, what's your thoughts on that, that we don't have to have mental health first training. I have first day training. I mean, it's slightly off topic, but it's something that I think if I'm elite, if I'm leading, especially because I'm taking out and teaching, then I should definitely have it, which I have we. We had Kelvin James on the podcast one of the earlier podcasts who teaches up in the Northwest. So, yeah, it's great to hear that you're a big advocate for that.

Speaker 3: 3:29

I would take it one step further. I think any person in any sort of school environment or any sort of teaching environment, anyone should be trained, anyone that deals with any sort of human interaction.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Yeah, definitely. And I think if it's not made compulsory and we have compulsory first aiders, I mean that really sends out the wrong message. You know, for me there's still this disparity between how we see and treat physical health with how we see and treat, you know, people with you know mental health conditions and challenges. And for me, if we're not making mental health first aid compulsory and we're saying first aid is compulsory, I think we're reinforcing that disparity and also reinforcing the message that we don't take mental health as seriously as physical health. And for me that really needs to change. And you know, I think again, just by saying, well, we have physical first aiders, we need to have mental health first aiders, to me that just makes sense.

Speaker 1: 4:14

And you know, you know we talk about the mental health benefits of the outdoors, but we really need to make sure that you know we can support people with their mental health needs when they're in that outdoor space as well yeah, 100, 100 I think the sort of growth in the amount of people heading outdoors now and I suppose I'd like to think that we're slightly to blame for this as well we're helping guide people, given the bit of information that they may require to get outside and basically hopefully follow, you know, find similar things that I found that you know, by getting out and getting out in green spaces and forgetting the stress of life for a little bit, then they can improve their mental health. Do you think it's the stigma of mental health that's still there, because there's not all that levelling up of you've got first aid certificate, get a mental health first aid certificate.

Speaker 2: 4:58

I think things are changing. I've been involved in mental health training since 2005,. So almost 20 years now. I've been delivering mental health training since 2005, so almost, yeah, 20 years now I've been delivering mental health training, not just in the outdoor industry, and I definitely see that stigma is, you know, slowly being eroded. But you know that stigma still exists and it walks. You know it's in every facet of life and I think, you know, for me again, just educating people, spreading awareness to kind of challenge that stigma. But yeah, I like to think things are changing, and particularly outdoor industry as well, when you think I think a lot of outdoor leading is very much about having those hard skills a lot of outdoor leaders were ex-military as well, so kind of pull yourself up and and just get on with it, um, but like I said, I definitely see that there's been change. I think the pandemic in some ways actually helped with that as well. I think it just again, I think it brought conversations about mental health to the forefront definitely.

Speaker 1: 5:45

I think that it's probably the only good thing that has come out of that situation. Isn't it that the mental health and because of what was restricted on us people started noticing well, you can't go outside and netflix for three days solid, eating doritos, drinking bloody cans of stellar or whatever it's. It's gone, it's only got, you know, it's only got a shelf life.

Speaker 1: 6:03

I don't eat dor Doritos. But I did do the Stella, to be honest, but even then because people were sort of denied things. Now they want that. People do head to the hills now an awful lot more and are aware of this connection. Body-mind-nature connection.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Yeah, definitely. I think people had coping strategies, people were managing their mental health. I just don't think they were like you know, it wasn't a conscious thing they were doing. They went. I'm like consciously doing this for the benefit of my mental health. But when we suddenly took away these coping strategies, these self-care habits from people, I think then people start to realize oh, I did that because that's really good for my mental health yeah, I know the uh, the leeds liverpool canal through the center of leeds, that became the.

Speaker 1: 6:47

It became like a community hub, you know. I mean because you just wouldn't the police come down there in the cars just stop you, stop me going in the public parks, um, and you were walking up and down there and you were seeing birds, you were seeing trees, you know a bit of the water around you and I think people were getting that connection of walking being out, just even if the thought they were, they were getting um cabin fever. They're getting cabin fever. Yes, you were, because you're stuck in that environment and now you're in the outdoors and now it's sort of propelled outdoor, outdoor therapy, nature therapy, really into the limelight yeah, 100 I could have gone on to a bit of a rant there.

Speaker 1: 7:19

I've held myself even more of a not good, even more of a rant. No, I just think that you know there should be more health, mental health, first aid, first training. I think it should be in the school curriculums to be fair, and if we start it, then you know, first aid training. Without me going back, peddling back to rant, I wasn't going to have First aid training, mental health, first aid training, what would that be? 32 hours, you could probably. You know, if you're not doing an outdoor first aid, that'd be eight hours. Surely there's time for that in the curriculum somewhere. Anyway, yeah, that might be a conversation for someone else to pick up. So you mentioned belize.

Speaker 2: 7:53

I've been there, what we're doing in belize, that we're expedition leader, you say yeah, so, um, that's why I guess I did a lot my training with jungle warfare instructors and then, um, I guess, was an expedition assistant on a gap year expedition and, yeah, I don't think there's anyone at that point that didn't have challenges around the mental health, because it was a remote jungle expedition where we were in a remote jungle environment for three months with no connection to the outside world, so it's pretty intense yeah, I did four weeks in belize and but that was after my pcsd diagnosis and this is when I first started getting really into outdoors and just doing a bushcraft course and then got

Speaker 1: 8:26

elevated and got elevated and got asked to go if I wanted to go to belize. In fact, john, who was the instructor there I've said I actually thanked him and you know says I think you helped with me finding the outdoors. And he says I think I'll give you an extra load of ptsd with that one because it was, it was, it was eventful. It's quite a country and it's quite a it's a tough environment as well it is, but it definitely takes your mind off other things.

Speaker 1: 8:46

This is what I'm sort of trying to allude to with these environments and the these southeast asia cycle. Three months. You said yeah, you said three months that was five months five months. So did you just decide to go on that, to turn your back on things or just escape or I guess I was, you know, living with agoraphobia at the time.

Speaker 2: 9:02

So I was really struggling to go outside and I really couldn't see a future for myself like. I always dreamt of being the British ambassador to the United States, studying politics and international relations at university, but once I got that diagnosis of bipolar disorder, there was no career for me in that. In that regard, you know, my relationship ended and I just didn't leave the house. I just, I just couldn't see a future for myself. I played American football at university and one of my teammates was American. He was volunteering out in the Philippines and his service was coming to an end and he's like dude, I'm going on this big bike trip through Southeast Asia. I think you should come.

Speaker 2: 9:33

And then suddenly it was kind of that, you know that light bulb moment, and it was just like yes, yeah, yeah. It was like, yeah, I've got to go. This is sunny, this was my calling in life, that's my call to adventure, so to say. And I get. It got me up, it got me out. I worked in starbucks, yeah, so I could finance a trip. But it was also good because it got me speaking to people again when I'd really isolated myself from the world, so it was really good for me in that regard. So I flew out there. I didn't even have a bike at the time. I bought a bike whilst we're out there and I'm trained as I went and, yeah, it was just an incredible experience and, yeah, again helped me find, I guess, purpose and meaning in life again.

Speaker 1: 10:05

Yeah, I think we could see when you actually said that and you're talking about how enthusiastic, you're talking about sort of telling us about it and, like you said, I think with some of us, a lot of us have these light bulb moments. So let's just talk about that bit for a minute. What would your advice to be anyone? That's because I did it. I did it with ptsd, where I didn't go out the house, I just sat and drank to fight, basically keep the demons away, really because of the flashbacks and other things, and I would expect obviously different but similar, you know, whereas the motivation to actually go out and talk to people, yeah. So what would your advice to be to anyone in a similar it's a broad spectrum? Is mental health in it? It could be, it could be anything, but people sort of you know, one thing is that you sort of dwell and look inward rather than that looking outward I guess you know we're living bipolar, which is an illness of extremes.

Speaker 2: 10:49

I've probably gone to extreme measures so, like you know, that's not always going to be right for everyone.

Speaker 2: 10:53

So for me it is just, you know, like small steps and you know, going out of your comfort zone and you know, even if the things that used to bring you joy no longer bring you joy, still do those things and still do those things that you know are good for you. It might not feel like you're getting any reward or any joy from those things, but I do think if you keep on doing them, you know it will help, kind of you kind of get out that hole you might have found yourself in and it can be a very dark hole and a very deep hole, but I do think, just like you know, doing those things that you know are good for you can really help get you out of that hole. Just knowing that might take a lot of time as well. It wasn't an overnight journey. It wasn't like I got on that bike and suddenly everything was better. I'm still a work in progress. It was almost 20 years ago. I'm still climbing out that hole, but it's definitely a lot more light in my life these days.

Speaker 1: 11:41

The way that I ended up going to Belize is that I'd seen an advert in a magazine. When I tins and uh, seen this advert for this survival and went on it, and everyone everyone that used to go drink with at a time like what are you doing? You know why are you doing this. You're daft, you're stupid.

Speaker 1: 11:56

What you know and then, you know, the week they'd, all they'd done is sat in the same place in the pub all weekend when I'd gone off, met new friends and, uh, many friends, new experiences, and that sort of got me back on a. You know, it got me appreciating the outdoors as much as a as I had and turning turning the tins away. So most of the time I'm going to ask you about your bipolar, because some people will have heard of bipolar but they might not know exactly what it means. So if you don't, wouldn't mind, would you? Can you tell us your own experience of bipolar?

Speaker 2: 12:23

yeah, sure, I mean bipolar no, it's, it's fine, like I guess it's. It's kind of my life's work to to raise awareness of conditions like these, because I didn't know what bipolar disorder was like. It used to be known as manic depression, but many found that term unhelpful because people thought it was a type of depression not realizing any bias. It means two polar. So you've got two opposites and you know you've got depression and it's very much depression, as anyone experience, you know, lethargy, lack of motivation, difficulty, concentration, no joy, no energy, no life, no feeling.

Speaker 2: 12:53

I mean, I guess, in a very simplified way, mania, which is like the other polar opposite of depression, is an inflated sense of well-being. It's the complete opposite of depression. I guess with depression you've got no hope for the future. I think with mania you're suddenly planning for a thousand futures. You have all this energy. There's no limits on what you think you can achieve and do in this world. It's an intense state of euphoria that's, yeah, very in many ways addictive and yeah, it's seductive almost, but it's, it's a very destructive thing you can be very productive in in manic episodes, but for me it's very much like a fire. Um, you know, it can very quickly spread out of control and just destroy everything in its path. So there's nothing left, and I guess symptomatic of manic episodes is just that lack of insight into consequences. So there are no risks, there are no consequences to your actions, so it can be devastating for a lot of people who live with it.

Speaker 1: 13:45

I didn't want to put you on the spot because it wasn't in the sort of show notes, but I just thought you know we've got someone here that's you've just spoke about it.

Speaker 1: 13:52

So if somebody's listening and can recognise that in themselves or recognise it in somebody else, then you know it's a pointer for them. So shall we talk about the awards? Basically, I'd ask you how the awards came about. You've given us a bit of that background. What pointed you? What was the light bulb moment that said we need an award? Well, describe what the awards do first.

Speaker 2: 14:10

The Head Outside Awards celebrate the individuals and organisations that harness the power of our natural world to improve mental health. And I guess yeah, I was during the pandemic. Before the pandemic, I was sitting on the British Mountaineering Council's Equity and Steering Board and I guess I sat on the mental health panel so how can we make the outdoors more inclusive for people with mental health? And then we were having a little chat and then I think someone said we should really celebrate the work that people are doing to you know, improve people's mental health in the outdoors, celebrate the work that you're all doing. And that was like I guess that was a light bulb moment for me. And then when I get an idea in my head, then I tend to roll with it. I don't know if that's part of being living with bipolar disorder like, but um, it was just like a moment that's like that's a great idea. And then I started investing a lot of time and energy into thinking about how I could make that happen and who I could make that happen with.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Yeah, I'm just thinking. Then if only if that's a result of, uh, the superpower of having bipolar, you know, we look at these people living with mental health conditions, then you know, because sometimes I don't react to a lot of stresses um which other people do react to, which was good on the doors and sometimes not so clever when. When were they founded?

Speaker 2: 15:18

yeah, I tried to launch them and then the pandemic happened and then that kind of it fell to the west side and then I had to think a bit differently maybe, about how they could happen.

Speaker 2: 15:26

So I launched the first one in 2022 and I I don't pretty much just given up on them. But then, uh, the bmc interviewed me for death finding our way podcast and the host of that podcast, uh, marianne arcotta, who's a bmc ambassador and broadcaster, thought they were a really good idea. And then she contacted the kendall mountain festival and said I think you should give a stage to launch these head outside awards, because, yeah, I mean, she really believed in those awards and thought they would be a good thing, which I'm very grateful for.

Speaker 1: 15:56

So that's good that you were talking to being obviously bmc um for everyone. That's the british mountaineering council. Yeah, they sort of campaign for us and campaign for people out on the mountains and for access and like, say, spreading the word of equality and getting people from different backgrounds, mental health, et cetera, getting them out on the hills as well to enjoy the countryside and the mountains. So, kendall, what was your first launch? What sort of awards do you cover? Who do you look for?

Speaker 2: 16:24

We have the Outstanding Organization, ways to Wellbeing, changemaker, inspirational Individual Wellbeing Warrior and Sam Hill Memorial Award. So the first year a committee decided on the winners. Just because it was too new, I didn't have much time I literally had four months to launch them. So a committee chose the winners the first year and then last year we had a nomination process and the winners were decided by a panel of judges.

Speaker 2: 16:51

Yeah yeah, I guess the first year was just about making them happen, and I made them happen by some small miracle and the help of many others could you tell us in particular about the sam hill award and then we'll go through.

Speaker 2: 17:00

We'll go through the others, as in the I mean the idea of the sam hill award, who sam was yes, sam, in 2013 I led a school expedition to borneo, uh, for a school from Halifax, and you know, sometimes you just get a group of young people who just really really kind of stick with you, um, who really impact on you, know your life as well. You like to think you make an impact on their life. There was a group of lads in particular that you know, like I was very fond of um, and one of those lads was Sam. He was a feisty character, could really push my buttons, but he was one that really seized the opportunity and really made the most of it and wanted to make the most of it.

Speaker 2: 17:35

And sadly, in 2018, sam ended his life and I went to his funeral.

Speaker 2: 17:39

I spoke at his funeral and talked about the importance of normalizing conversations about mental health and destigmatizing particularly the stigma around male. You're, like you know, man up is not helpful and I think Sam really bought into that male stigma. Um and I made a promise to sam's mum that I would keep his memory alive and it was a quite heavy burden to carry at times and for me, the sam hill memorial award was a way I could could really honor that and keep that promise to sam's mum and jess's sister, she um, she comes up on stage each year and she does a little bit of talk commemorating sam's life. So that's that's what that award is all about and I guess when I was really struggling to get the awards, just sam's memory really kind of helped to motivate me and to keep me going and with awards and just try my best to make them happen it's a very sad story, but, um, are you okay with that talking about that because I can see how much it means to you?

Speaker 2: 18:26

yeah, again, it's just. You know it's again got to keep sam's memory alive and you know we've got to keep talking about suicide and the impact that it has on people. And a stigma really does kill. For me it was a depression that killed my best friend. I don't think it was depression that killed sam, it was. You know the stigma man up. You know you know things that shut down those conversations, things that force people to suffer in silence and make people who are feeling really bad about themselves feel even worse about themselves. So it always pains me to talk about these things, but we've got to right because lives can be saved.

Speaker 1: 18:58

Yeah, I mean, that's why we're here, isn't it? I mean, myself and Seb recorded a podcast because someone said we hadn't done one about me really about my story so we've recorded it and it's sat in the archives waiting to be released, isn't it, Seb?

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yeah, when it's taken, all the swearing- yeah, when I'm ready because it was quite deep, but I think I did mention on that. You know, the incident and the PTSD that I went through was horrendous, but my worst time was from this man up, sort yourself out people not believing. You know that some of the effects that can manifest yourself from what I'd call a brain injury. It's not a physical brain injury but a mental brain injury and, to be fair, I feel a bit vilified now because of doing all this learning how the brain changes to protect you. But it can manifest itself in other ways, like excessive drinking and irrational behaviour and stuff like that. So that's what we're here for breaking down any stigma of mental health across the board. So big up for that. Mate. If I could pat you on the back I would back out from here, and you've got COVID, so I don't want to Cool. So shall we talk about some of the winners, or do you want to talk about the actual what people have to qualify to get each award?

Speaker 2: 20:10

So I guess this year you know they are going to be held at the Kendall Mountain Festival Denominations open up on the 12th of February. So Monday, the 12th of February, kind of changed some of the categories this year. So this year we've got, as always, we've got the Outstanding Organization, we've got the Outstanding Community Award, we've got the Changemaker Award, so award, so you know, an organization that's really doing something differently in the outdoors to support people with their mental health. Then we have the well-being warrior, who is, you know, someone overcoming their own mental health challenges has either inspired people to live their lives more adventurously or facilitated opportunities for people to live more adventurously. Then we've got the head outside hero. That doesn't have to be, you know, they don't have to have lived experience, but someone who's's, I guess, whose positivity has really, I guess, improved access to the outdoors or inspired again for people to go to the outdoors.

Speaker 2: 21:00

Then the Sam Hill Memorial Award, which is chosen by Sam's family. Three Dads Walking won the first one of those last year. Yeah, they were obviously great recipients. And then this year I've launched the people's award because I was getting lots of nominations for for things that didn't really quite fit into any of the categories. So, like you know a person who'd written a series of books which inspired young people to connect to the outdoors podcasts, magazines, campaigns so this year we've launched the people's award. So that's just an open category and then I'm going to let the people decide. Um, not a judging panel so that can go out to the general public and let them have a choice and say as well.

Speaker 3: 21:37

I guess with awards you always need to have a winner, but in theory everyone's actually a winner here, aren't they?

Speaker 2: 21:42

Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 2: 21:44

So I didn't realise how emotionally difficult it would be to tell someone that they hadn't won the award. You know, know, we have finalists, we have people who get nominate and don't get into the finalists, and all of them deserve to be celebrated, all of them deserve to be recognized. Like it, it's really, it really is a difficult thing to have a winner and you know, I think anyone who has won an award, you know it's not about recognition and, again, it's just. The awards aren't just about, you know, they are about recognizing people and saying well done. But for me, they're very much about providing a stage or creating a stage for people to share really powerful stories that inspire, help people connect, you know, break down those barriers and help break down that stigma and network as well, like there's been some great networking and collaboration that's come out from the awards, not just from the winners, but, you know, people who've been nominated, or the finalists, or people who just help out the awards as well and share the awareness to everyone else for yourself to be given a stage.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Did you say kendall or keswick?

Speaker 2: 22:34

kendall mountain festival kendall mountain festival.

Speaker 1: 22:36

Yeah, because I spoke up at keswick and that was received really well, um, yeah. So, kendall, to you know these big organizations like this now picking up and I think they've been doing for a few years on the, in fact, the film white fox, that was on, um, kendall, but it was during COVID, so I had to speak over the internet, which wasn't great. But, yeah, for these people now, or these organisations, to be giving you that stage, yeah, so that'll be seen on all their promotion, I take it. So, again, this is another way of oh right, what's this? We'll maybe have a look at that and, just like you say, just breaking it down bit by bit.

Speaker 2: 23:13

So big a look at that and just like say, just breaking it down bit by bit to them as well, yeah, massively, like I can. I couldn't have done it without them. I can't do it without them. Um, and like seb said, it's that awareness thing and it's also the awareness of how diverse the activities are.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Like you know, we have equine therapy, we have farming for young people, park hour, um, you know, cold water swimming, like the traditional, more common ones, walking groups, so just to see the diversity of what people are doing in the outdoors to improve people's mental health, I think it's doing really uplifting. And you know, you know, hiking's not for everyone, cold water swimming isn't for everyone, but maybe farming might be for someone, maybe someone lives in an urban area, so kind of that street running and parkour might be more up there up their street, quite literally. Um, so, yeah, that was a really encouraging thing to see, just like it wasn't just walking groups, it just wasn't swimming groups, it was just, you know, these diverse range of activities that we're able to spread awareness of what's the plans for the future with the awards?

Speaker 2: 24:01

I guess, yeah, making them a bit more sustainable. I kind of finance them myself for the most part at the moment. Um, and just yeah, I just think just growing it and and just making them hopefully, you know, like, more recognizable and and hopefully getting more diversity in terms of people who do apply. I'm really trying to make the judging panels diverse as possible this year, which is I'm doing my best. But yeah, any like yeah, the more diverse we can make it, then I think that would encourage a more diverse range of applications Actually launching in the US in May. So Head Outside Awards USA is going to happen in May. May the appalachian trials day festival so that's really exciting.

Speaker 2: 24:39

Yeah, I think there's talk and interest from canada and staging them out there next year.

Speaker 1: 24:43

So a bit too quickly yeah, that's brilliant, though. Yeah, I mean what? Do you have any sort of idea of what sort of stage America and Canada are regarding using the outdoors for mental health?

Speaker 2: 24:57

I think in many ways they kind of pioneered it. I think the US, the infrastructure for the outdoors I'd say it's a lot better than it is in the UK. But I think when it comes to you know, I do work with clients and run mental health training in the US I do think there's like we're more progressive when it comes to conversations about mental health. I think there's more stigma in the US as well, particularly, I guess, because we're a multicultural society, but I don't think we have as the Hispanic population like they do. I think the multicultural aspect adds another layer of stigma out there. So again, some of the winners we got for this year's awards again, just incredible stories of people who are doing incredible things and again I think they're just really excited to share their stories. And the festival the town of damascus and virginia they're really excited to give us a stage at the appalachian trial days festival. I threw hype the appalachian trial in 2010, so it just seemed like the right thing to do.

Speaker 2: 25:48

How was that incredible that?

Speaker 1: 25:50

was I'm interested in. I don't really get the time off to do it.

Speaker 2: 25:53

Yeah, I mean, I don't have kids, so that's why I can run these awards and go off on these big awards.

Speaker 1: 25:59

My kids are up and left me. They're supporting me now. To be fair, I don't think they'll finance it. The GR10's on mine, you know, through the Pyrene. That's my ambition one, so that's yeah, I mean that's a big move, isn't it? I know I was recently in Australia and the mental health progression to losing that stigma is a little bit behind us, I think. But I think it's this it goes. It all seems to be based on this sort of macho image. Men go to work and then, on a Friday, go out, get pissed, have a few beers and everything's all right, and then probably go home and have a few issues themselves. There's still a lot of work to be done around the world, isn't there? You could be worldwide soon, mate.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Yeah, I need so much more support. If that's the case Again, I'd quite like to launch an Australian.

Speaker 1: 26:45

You need a sponsor, don't you? If you want to apply, ask the world for a sponsor. You can do it on air.

Speaker 2: 26:51

That would be nice. Well, my best friend was Australian. So again, like, and you know like, he passed away in Australia, oh, okay Again. So yeah, again, I think it's again just across the world. You know suicide, you know depression, is the leading cause of disability worldwide. It's not just something that happens in the uk, australia, the us, it happens, you know, all across the world. I've seen depression and had conversations about suicide on all the countries I've led expeditions in as well.

Speaker 3: 27:15

So yeah, it's so important and the quicker we can have national awareness and spread it internationally, the more help there will be for people and the more help people can actually find.

Speaker 2: 27:25

Yeah, definitely, I don't know how many. I mean, I shared that Norwich. I don't know if you, I'm sure you had the Norwich City Football Club video they did on suicide on the two blokes in the football stadium. That's universal, isn't it? I think people all across it's a global sport. So many people across the world could, you know, really relate to that, respond to that. So I think things like that, you know, you know they, they transcend borders, don't they? Nationalities. So, um, there's so much we can do to to spark conversations about mental health, you know, across the world and through different cultures as well yeah, well, that's what we're.

Speaker 1: 27:56

Uh, that's what we're trying to do, isn't it between us?

Speaker 3: 27:59

one question I did have when you did your bike right.

Speaker 2: 28:02

If you don't mind me going back to that, I just never thought I was capable of and then I guess that really then instilled that like well, maybe I can recover from this bipolar disorder, maybe it's not the end of the world. This diagnosis and again I think you know it's a great question like, yeah, I mean, I think being able to achieve what I thought I couldn't achieve really did help with my recovery, and that's why I truly believe that bike trip not only changed my life, it did save my life.

Speaker 1: 28:48

So can you sort of point the words what it did to you, mentally, as in what it gave you, and physically, I suppose, because it's all related. Isn't it Just to give a bit of inspiration to somebody else that may be held back?

Speaker 2: 29:00

Yeah, I guess I learnt, you know, without understanding. There is an acceptance and I was struggling to accept my diagnosis. I was struggling to accept the life that I wanted. I was not going to leave. You know that life was kind of not over, but the life I was going to leave was very different and that bike trip really helped me with that acceptance.

Speaker 2: 29:18

Like this is who I am, this is what I live with, but it doesn't need to define me. I'm not defined by my bipolar disorder, I'm not defined by my suicide attempt or self-harm. I live with those things but they don't define me. And ultimately it gave me hope, and hope is central to recovery. If I didn't think I could get better, then I wouldn't get better and for years I didn't think I would get better. So I think suddenly I found hope, suddenly I meaning suddenly I found joy and all those things were transformative. Like I still live with depression, I still live with anxiety, I still have all those things, I still live with thoughts of suicide. But I guess that bike trip taught me that there's always something that I can do, there's always something here within my power that can help again, I guess, getting out that hole I still find myself in from time to time still relating to the to the bike ride.

Speaker 1: 30:06

Did you talk about your mental health issues prior to that, or did you talk about them openly, as as we are doing now?

Speaker 2: 30:14

yes, in 2005 I was part of a government initiative called shift, which is about challenging the stigma and discrimination of mental illness in the media. So 2007, I featured in a BBC documentary called Surviving Suicide and then 2008, I featured in a BBC Horizon documentary called how Mad Are you? How Mad Are you, which was shown in over 80 countries worldwide. But yeah, I've done quite a lot of public speaking. But then I found it wasn't really helpful having a diagnosis and being an expedition leader, because there's so much stigma in the outdoor industry.

Speaker 2: 30:46

People are like well, how can you lead groups of young people if you've got a diagnosis of bipolar disorder? So I really kind of stopped talking about my mental health condition. I really kind of hid it from the world. But then I became quite an experienced leader and I guess times have changed. I can be vocal about it. I don't need to to hide that part of me, because hiding that part of you it's not good for your mental health. Is it for me to say I haven't got that diagnosis? That's saying I should be ashamed. Or I need to hide something when I don't because, like again, it doesn't define me and I'm as capable of doing anything as you know anyone without a diagnosis and again, I think that's what some of these you know my bike trips and walks and the awards are about that.

Speaker 1: 31:25

You know you can live with these conditions and still live very active and fulfilling life yeah, I mean, I was sort of alluding to that because the feeling that I I suppressed everything, kept it down because of the man up stuff for years and years and years.

Speaker 1: 31:37

And then it was on and on, and when I didn't got my winter mountain leader, I thought, well, I can talk about this, talk about this. And it was just like well, you know, you've spent a couple of nights out on Cairngorm Plateau in winter, you're ready to face anything. I'll be honest, and you know it was just one of them, testing the water. This is going to go one of two ways I'm either going to get loads of shit or it's going to be okay. And you know big wet coat that I've been carrying around and what I'm trying to sort of say there for anyone that's listening is possibly have to be careful when you do it. You've got to be ready to speak about it, because and the environment you're in, but it's probably not as bad as going on and living with it and suppressing it- Do you still take young people on expeditions?

Speaker 2: 32:26

Sadly not, I guess in it. Do you still take um young people on expeditions? Uh, no, sadly not. Um, I guess I've been so busy with the awards and delivering mental health first aid training. But I am taking. I work with dyson, I deliver their mental health training and do some consultancy for them. I'm taking 18 people from dyson up kilimanjaro in september. So I'm organizing and needing that. So, uh, yeah, it'll be the first expedition I've led in quite a while, so I'm incredibly excited about that. And hopefully volunteering with Janie's Farm, who won the Outstanding Organisation in last year's awards. So, yeah, maybe get my chance to work with young people in the outdoors through them.

Speaker 1: 32:56

Cool, you don't need an IML to assist you on that, do you on the Kilimanjaro? So I seem to have gone through all my awards, and funnily enough, I mean I've gone through all my awards and doing what I was doing and basically I'm sort of now working with young people and trying to introduce things to them and it's behavioral difficulties. We spoke to Dan Giblin recently at ADHD and you know some mental difficulties, some behavioral difficulties, but you know it. Just, it gives me as much a great feeling of helping them, even though some can be really difficult, than it does out with a group of adults that have just paid you to walk or do a challenge. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 33:30

You know, for me it's just like young people help my inner child come out to play. And I think when you live with depression, it's quite hard for that inner child to come out sometimes. And you know, young people love as well, like they're very affectionate and very loving, and I think if you live with depression and don't feel that it's it's, it's a great thing as well.

Speaker 2: 33:46

so working with young people I think it's an incredible honor and privilege and, yeah, I'm sure you get. They learn lots from you as well in your life story which they can use yeah, I mean, I find you working with young people, especially very young people.

Speaker 1: 33:57

They just tell you the truth, they tell you how it is. It's very black and white for kids, isn't't it? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 34:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:01

Yeah, I mean, you know a lot of them don't know my story. I don't really go into the mental health too much, so they tell you how it is and if they're enjoying themselves, you know that's good. You know they're displaying their character in a truthful way, whereas I think for myself there was a lot of mistrust with people because you know why are you talking to me like this way? You know, and I did go undergo some a bit of social washing with people you know using the name and using a story to promote, which is why we've sort of stepped in and hopefully doing this for others stew I hope you have a lot more of these light bulb moments, because it sounds like whatever you put your heart and soul into, you seem to achieve something really great.

Speaker 3: 34:39

So, I think, keep doing what you're doing as you said.

Speaker 2: 34:41

Yeah, kind of you to say so yeah, I'd back that.

Speaker 1: 34:44

I would also, like I sort of mentioned earlier on, if anyone can take anything one about what the world is opening up and awareness, getting rid of stigma. But for somebody to be talking about bipolar in that you've had a light bulb moment and it's possibly bipolar that has kept you going on like a dog with a bone won't let go of it then there's a superpower there, isn't there. You know what I mean and you know we see these things with people with autism and ADHD and other things. So it's not. You know, getting a diagnosis isn't For me. You know, a diagnosis is just a diagnosis. It's putting a label on something that's already exists. So getting that diagnosis doesn't really make any difference. It gives you a place to start off, to hopefully work through constructively and in a direction. So, yeah, fantastic work, mate, fantastic, thank you. Yeah, thank you, so yeah thanks for coming on, stu.