E47: Embracing Nature's Role in Mental Health: A Healing Trek with Andy Higson (Blackdog Outdoors)

We welcome Andy Higson of Blackdog Outdoors into our fold. His tales of finding solace in the wilderness and creating a sanctuary for mental wellness through nature are nothing short of inspiring. Together, we traverse the peaks and valleys of mental health awareness, community outreach, and the personal triumphs of those who've found courage in our collective outdoor journeys.

Embarking on adventures isn't just about the adrenaline—it's a path to healing. In our heartfelt exchange with Andy, we uncover the layered benefits of engaging with the great outdoors, especially for those wrestling with mental health challenges. As we recount stories of individuals who've stepped out of their comfort zones and into our supportive hiking events, it's clear that the journey is as crucial as the destination. With mental health first aiders and professionals by our side, we reassure you that no matter your fitness level, there's a spot on the trail for you.

As the episode draws to a close, we contemplate the future of mental health and the role nature plays in fostering resilience and optimism. We dream of a world where our efforts in mental health advocacy have paved the way for a society less burdened by psychological struggles—a notion that inspires and drives our commitment. Our gratitude extends to Andy, who, through sharing his insights, has illuminated the undeniable bond between our minds and the wild world we roam. So, lace up your boots or lean back in your chair, and join us as we savor the stories and the sounds of the outdoors, where every step is a step towards well-being.

Blackdog Outdoors

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Matt Jalavantine and somewhere in the world is Seb joining. By the power of the internet, how are you, seb, I'm alright, thanks.

Speaker 2: 0:10

And by somewhere in the world, in Leeds, oh, it looks very tropical behind you. What's that? What's going on? It's a plant. It's a fake plant. It's a.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Oh, it's a fake. Ah no, not plastic please. Oh, come on. No, it's digital, come on. Digital art. Oh, it's digital, all right, Well, it saves water in it, I suppose. Anyway, how are you?

Speaker 2: 0:26

I'm all right, thank you?

Speaker 1: 0:27

How are you? I'm all right, mate, I'm all right. Yeah, just plodding on. This is actually. It's a bit of an anniversary for us. I don't know if you know, so it's like it's two years tomorrow since we recorded our first episode. Wow, I'm glad you're keeping track. Funnily enough, it's also the anniversary of the incident in Istanbul where I ended up with PTSD, so that's how I can recall it.

Speaker 2: 0:48

That was 24 years ago, wasn't it?

Speaker 1: 0:50

24 years yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Yeah, I heard it on the radio and thought of you straight away.

Speaker 1: 0:53

Yeah, thank you. So yeah, we'll be down there having a meet-up and a bit of a remembrance tomorrow, joining us today, again by the internet, and it does sound like he's talking into a paper cup, I don't know why. Paper cup with a piece of string. Andrew Hickson of Black Dog Outdoors. Hello, andrew, hello. Do you want Andy or Andrew? Do you want to be formal or not?

Speaker 3: 1:12

Andy's fine, but I answer to most four-letter names, to be honest.

Speaker 1: 1:15

Fair enough, Fair enough. So I've known you for a while. I've known you a fair few years now, haven't?

Speaker 3: 1:22

I.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Yeah. So I'm just thinking if you could give the listeners, viewers, a little brief introduction about yourself and Black Dog, but don't give them too much, otherwise we won't have an interview.

Speaker 3: 1:38

No, that's fine. Yeah, so I love the outdoors. I've always been passionate about the outdoors from a very young age. I grew up in an area, as most of you guys did, where I didn't have tablets and pay phones and instantly accessible stuff. I played outside and I've continued that through my adult life. I'm a civil engineer, that's my full-time job, and I balance the stress and the pressure of that job with getting outside and getting away from all of that, yeah, which led me to found a charity with some friends and go on to get qualifications in the outdoors as well, so that I can give a little back.

Speaker 1: 2:17

I just sort of referred to the anniversary and the podcast and to be fair mate, with sort of a bit of a thanks, I think when I say thanks because the stress of running the podcast and, to be fair mate, we sort of owe you a bit of a thanks. I think when I say thanks because the stress of running the podcast is, you'll know yourself running the Running Black Dog, but the stress of running the podcast it's all sort of came around because we met on your Mountain Leader training and we got talking and then I wrote a little piece for Black Dog which then went out through social media and that got picked up and Rob Johnson then said this story would make a nice little film and that's how the White Fox film came around. So what do you think, seb? Do we owe Andy a bit of thanks or is it something we've took on that's gently crushing us?

Speaker 2: 2:56

Well, we should definitely say thank you, and I'm sure some of our listeners will be very grateful that we've started this.

Speaker 3: 3:08

So, yeah, thank you, and thanks for making our workload even more busier, no problem, I'd like to say. You're welcome and sharing is caring, so enjoy that workload, thanks.

Speaker 1: 3:17

Yeah, it is, it is. So, yeah, we went on mountain leader training and then again on your mountain leader assessment, so you are a qualified mountain leader. And again on your mountain leader assessment so you are a qualified mountain leader. And again we come back to this, this thing of the outdoors and outdoors and mental well-being. But what I'd like to know is your personal journey about why you found it, or you and your friends founded black dog, because it's not everyone that wants to take on and give. If you know what I mean it's. You know we've got a lot of people in the outdoors. People enjoy recreation, walkers, et cetera, et cetera, but not everyone wants to do it to help other people. So what was the spur behind that?

Speaker 3: 3:51

It was before we met. The idea came along and actually, as I said, I've always used the outdoors as a, I guess, a coping mechanism for myself. When I feel my stress cup filling up, I go out for a walk, I take the dog for a walk. I used to go out for a run. I'd escape to the hills at the weekend and then, as I got more and more into the outdoors, I started taking on bigger mountain adventures, which actually led me going out to the Alps with a guide chap called Stuart MacDonald.

Speaker 3: 4:24

I had an attempt at Mont Blanc in 2017, not very successful. I didn't cope with the altitude very well and a faster climatisation window didn't work for me. We were curtailed by the weather, but that didn't put me off. I signed up and I went out to Elbrus in 2018 and was successful there. So climbed Elbrus.

Speaker 3: 4:44

But long story short, when I was out on Elbrus, when we were up in the cabin at altitude, when we finally stopped talking about bodily functions because that's all you talk about for a few days at altitude, you're still solid. You're still solid. Oh, no Eye of a needle mate. When you stop talking about that, know, we start talking about. You know what? Actually all sort of fetched us to to Russia to climb this mountain, and I was really intrigued by the fact that almost everyone around the table had a sort of like high profile, high pressure job. And we're all into mountaineering for the same reason to to get away from that job, to challenge themselves in a different way, to to unwind and recalibrate and, you know, just find balance in the life. And I thought, well, that's, that's, that's incredible. I mean, I I've always known that these guys clearly know that, but why isn't everybody doing that? What's stopping other people getting into the outdoors? So when I started looking into it, when I got back home from from Russia, there were a lot of websites that talked about the benefits of being in the outdoors. There were a lot of websites that would sell services to take you up a mountain or on a paddle event, but there didn't seem to be many that, if any, that had actually joined the dots and said you know, we can help you, we can help you overcome barriers to access, we can get you out to to reap these benefits that I take for granted and that others take for granted.

Speaker 3: 6:09

So the idea started out as a, as a signposting website, because I'm busy and I don't have a lot of time, so that's that's really black dog. Outdoors was a just a website. How to get into the outdoors. You know where to get information on weather forecasts and what clothing to wear, etc. Etc. How to get into the outdoors. You know where to get information on weather forecasts and what clothing to wear, etc. Etc. How to navigate.

Speaker 3: 6:30

And we quickly started to get feedback. On that. I'm going to say we it's myself, john gale, adam thistlethwaite were the initial founders of the website and then other people came on board ian holden, fliss, turner, scott roon and it started to grow. We thought do you know what? We started getting feedback saying website's fantastic, the information on there is brilliant. But if I've got anxiety, I ain't going to use that. If I've got to think about planning a walk and I don't know what to do, I'm not going to go out and do that walk. If I'm not confident, I don't know where to go, I'm not going to use this information.

Speaker 3: 7:06

Uh, and that's really when we started to run events and we're so naive we thought we'll take this handful of people out that have that don't know how to get into the outdoors and we'll put on a, an annual event and we were really naive. We thought it would be an annual event. We gave it a name, charlie. We called it black dogs big day out. I've still got the poster somewhere. I thought it was was going to be one event a year and we ran nine in that first year and last year we ran 135. So, yeah, it continued to grow. We've moved on from walking events. It's walking, paddling and climbing now as well, so just try and reconnect people with the outdoors.

Speaker 1: 7:43

We've had a few guests now and this sort of thing seems to start, like you say, with possibly a one-off event or some smaller group days, but then demand is outstripping supply. I think I read somewhere recently about the sort of percentage of people that are coming on courses that are actually declaring some either mental health issue or some neurodivergence, and the rapid growth there. Yeah, so what sort of people come to you and why would they choose Black Dog?

Speaker 3: 8:17

People like you say. If you think about the headline stat that we're all told that one in six adults at some point in their life suffers with poor mental health, keep the math simple there's 60 million people in the UK. That means at some point there's 10 million people struggling with their mental health. So, yeah, there's a great need to support those people and we do it in a number of ways. To answer your question, Charlie, we have introductory events where members of the general public can self-book onto them, self-refer themselves. That's the word I was looking for self-refer. I'm a clever person, can't think of words. So people at general public and we don't ask people to disclose anything we don't need to know that they've got a medical condition or they've been diagnosed. Mental health doesn't mean mental condition. You know everybody can have poor mental health, so that's an important thing to remember in what we do. So they're great. Those introductory sessions are fantastic and they tend to be more aimed at people that have had the experience to get in and out of the outdoors or have fallen out of love or have lost confidence, or they just want to come along to socially interact again. So they're really important.

Speaker 3: 9:29

But we have a community event stream as well, which is we support service user groups. I can give some examples. These are other organisations or charities. So we support a neurodivergent group based out of Macclesfield called Space for Autism. So we take their service users for walks in sort of like national trusty states where they've got great facilities and lots of things to talk about and easy access.

Speaker 3: 9:57

We run events for NHS psychosis teams, so their patients and staff, so giving the staff respite but also getting the patients back out as well into into the outdoors. Uh, lgbt group in manchester we support and their recovery program for the lgbt foundation. So lots of things that sort of go under the radar. Um, and a couple of community centered events as well. So one up in cumbria we we run a monthly walk for residents of copeland and allardale, which is one of the was copeland and allardale, uh, coastal cumbria now, which is one of the more deprived areas in the uk. And we we run a similarly a monthly walking event up in morecambe for residents of that area, another area that struggles with mental health, when you look at the statistics.

Speaker 3: 10:45

So yeah, a good, a good mix really so what's the um usual age range?

Speaker 2: 10:52

and if it's quite a white age range, can you see any patterns or statistic evolving where there's a change of an age range?

Speaker 3: 10:59

it tends to be. We do capture a lot of data from our events. Most, the largest percentage of the demographic is, you know, mid 40s to late 50s and a higher percentage of females compared to males. But you think about it, that sort of makes sense that we would have a lot of middle-aged women coming on our events. Um, because menopause for one um, and probably other more subtle things that you know, they've been a mother for god knows how many years and the children have grown up and flown the nest and that's it. If they suddenly find themselves unemployed, as it were, so they need to go out and either re-find a social life or find find another meaning and purpose. So that makes sense. We do get younger people come along. Yeah, we get people in their 20s. That tends to be more.

Speaker 1: 11:49

Middle age range is what we attract yes, what you refer to there, with the female or ladies coming across, coming I think I read somewhere about. You know, obviously, uh, there's a lot of talk about men's mental health because of suicide statistics, but actually females possibly more likely to suffer with a mental health issue just because of the like you're referred to with the matriarchy, uh, and basically, you know, taking everyone's stress on. So I think, personally, I think we, we look at mental health under an umbrella, but everybody's individual and then you know, and everybody's needs are specific to them, are they not?

Speaker 3: 12:27

yeah, no, you're dead right. Um, you talk about mental health and everybody copes with poor mental health differently. Everyone has different coping mechanisms and just looking at stress as one one element of mental health, you know what stress stress to me might be a crisis to somebody else. You know, because I've got a lot of resilience I'm able to manage stress. Others, others less so, but even still, you know I'm a man united fan. I can go week to week, up and down.

Speaker 3: 12:53

Honestly, get off it no, there is more than one, united charlie not on this side of the hills.

Speaker 3: 13:00

There isn't but there's so many things that can impact your mental health when you think about it, and it's little things and often you find that it can build up lots of little things can be as bad as one big thing and it's dead right. All comes down to the individual, individual levels of resilience, the support networks they've got around them, and it's being able to cater for a wide range of mental health needs and levels, I suppose, which is what we do through.

Speaker 1: 13:31

Black Dog. If we were to look at the growth of Black Dog, like you said, you've got this one event that you thought, or a signposting website, and then one event a year. How many events did you say last year? Was it 150 or something?

Speaker 1: 13:44

this one event that you thought or a signposting website, and then one event a year. So how many events did you say last year? Was it 150 or something? Oh yeah, do you think that's? Is that because of the success of black dog and I'd like to think it's a little bit of both.

Speaker 3: 13:57

I think you know we do work hard john. John works incredibly hard behind the scenes in promoting our events and pushing them. Ian does a great job in getting them advertised. You know ready to advertise early enough. But I think a lot of it is need as well and word of mouth as well. You know you start out and people see what you're doing, they see what other people are doing, they see that other people are coming along and having a good time. You know that helps.

Speaker 3: 14:19

But you can see, not just with what we're doing, it's expanded further. You're doing great stuff in the same sector. You've got Alex Stanifield. He's got his charity Mind Over Mountains up in Cumbria doing fantastic work and they're growing as well, continue to grow.

Speaker 3: 14:36

Kelvin James has got his wellness walks and you see all these little groups and you know I stopped thinking of them as competitors a long time ago. There's too many people to support. There's far too many people to support. But people are now, I think, seeing that they can reach out to charities like us, like Mind Over Mountains, like Wellness Walks, and they can be supported through other means that aren't just going to your doctor for a referral. Not that I would advocate against going to the doctor, your doctor for a referral, not that I would advocate against going to the doctor. You know medicine and medicine and therapy have definitely got a part to play in in in managing mental health, but there are other tools that can be in the same tool. Test and getting outside and spending time in nature is a is a big, big one to have in your locker, I think yeah, couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1: 15:21

Mate the. I don't know if you've read a book, what is it called? The miracle pill? Um, I think I've referred to it before. I can't remember the name of the author. Actually is um, is a political journalist and if you know, if anyone wants to, you know, look and get some sort of reference of the sort of therapeutic effects of just getting out walking in nature, then that would be a a starting point. If somebody was thinking, you know, listening to this, they could put the fact that you're a man United fan to one side and they want to come on a Black Dog event just to see how it is. I think sometimes we forget people with a mental health issue might be looking inwards and not being able to take that step to join a group or, to, you know, be reluctant to join a group. So what's what sort of advice and what would be the, the pathway to doing that and coming out and joining, and what could they gain?

Speaker 3: 16:15

I think a lot, a lot of it's a lot. A lot of it, I suspect, is a fear of the unknown, a fear of how you might be treated, a fear about might others treat you. Um, I can only say just come along, get on the website, have a look at an event that suits you, that you've got an interest in because we do have. We have them up and down the country and come along. That's the hardest step. It sounds easy to say that it really does. It is the hardest step.

Speaker 3: 16:41

We have a member of our support team and she was originally an attendee. In fact it was our third walk on Skiddoe and she drove up at the car park and I was taking names on the list and she wound the window down and she gave me a name. I said I can't get out of my car, I'm going home and she drove off. She'd driven all the way across from North East England to Skidmore and she couldn't do it. And she signed up for our first climbing event at Windgather later that year and we were able to coax her out of the car with the promise of Haribo and hugs and she got out of the car. She didn't climb, but she sat and she took photos and she chatted to people and that was it.

Speaker 3: 17:23

It was almost like just being there and being with other people gave her the confidence to come out again and she's done so well in that that she comes along to support SAR events as a mental health first aider. She wants to give something back and she comes along and supports our events as a mental health first aider. She wants to give something back and it took her to overcome that first hurdle, which was just getting there, just taking the step out the door. It's not easy. But join the Facebook group as well, maybe before you commit to an event. If anyone's interested, we've got a Facebook channel. There's lots of banter on there.

Speaker 1: 18:00

There's lots of good photos, lots of chat, and that will encourage people to to take that first step as well. Let's just describe some of the events. Um, and what sort of ability? Because I think what I've come across before is people have a reluctance to join events because they think they're not going to be physically capable as well, because they've probably, they've possibly not been out. I always look at this thing of you know, if someone wants to, if someone wants to hire me for a day to take them out, well, why are they hiring me? Like you know, because when I was 14, 15, running around the hills by myself, you know why. You know why can't these people do it? But we've got to look from their, their point and their individual perspective that they might be thinking, well, I'm going to go out this group that they're all going to be fit, healthy and racing up these hills, and I can't do it yeah, yeah, I said that.

Speaker 3: 18:41

I know that's a, that's a good point to touch on it and I can see that that is, for a lot of people, is a concern of theirs, and we do get a lot of emails saying I'm booked onto this event, but how fit do I need to be? We always respond the respond the same way and I should have mentioned this earlier. All of our events are led by qualified outdoor professionals.

Speaker 2: 19:00

Really.

Speaker 3: 19:01

Even people like me. Yeah, I know right. They're supported by Mental Health First Aiders. So we create this safe, inclusive space and supportive space and we're fully insured. And our ethos isn't on getting to the top of the hill as quickly as we can, it's about spending time in nature and if we get to the top of the hill, well that's great. But we'll always have enough leaders on the team and enough support staff that if the group needs to break into a faster or a slower group, that's fine. That's perfectly fine. We go at the pace of the individuals I just spent. I was on Ben Nevis last September. We had a group walk up there and I stayed with one attendee. She was so determined to get to the top but she didn't want to hold the rest of the group up. So that's fine, we'll go at your pace and whenever you want to stop we'll turn back. And we started out.

Speaker 3: 19:54

She wanted to get to the halfway lock, so we got to the halfway lock and then she wanted to get to Redburn. We got to Redburn and then we said, right, well, what we're going to do is we're going to start counting off the heights of mountains, mountains that you're interested in, the ones that I could remember. So we're going to go to Coniston, and then we're going to go to Helvellyn, and then we're going. She said I've never been to Snowdon, we'll go higher than Snowdon. And before she knew it, we were at the top of the zigzags at 1200 metres. We're going to finish now. We're on the hill for 12 hours up and down. And she got there and she did it and she was so pleased with herself. But there'll be other groups that I'm. I've heard horror stories of people going out in meet up groups and just getting left for dead. They're not fast enough. They're left in the middle of a field, probably still attached to the barbed wire, that they couldn't climb over like everyone else could. It's not what we're about really, is it?

Speaker 2: 20:48

It sounds like it's not a competition, isn't it? You're trying to include everyone that's joining you and let everyone have a good time, and it should be beneficial to them yeah, yeah, and we make it educational as well, and that's that's a big piece of our events.

Speaker 3: 21:03

We don't want to just it's not a walk. It is a walk, but it's not just a walk. You know. We want to want to tell people about what they're walking in, what you know. These mountains have got hundreds of millions of years of history, you know. Tell people about that, get them engaged and interested, because if they're engaged and interested, they might want to go out again. They might take an interest in geology or flora and fauna.

Speaker 1: 21:23

They might eventually learn more flowers than me and you, charlie, which would be 12 in my case yeah, well, I knew I did know 20 for my IML, but I only knew them for a week and then they disappeared. Um, so if someone someone's on an event, um, do you get people opening up and talking about their issues or just you know. Again, I'll refer to this and I suppose it's a lot of me. I look at my own experience and then my. So my own experience of getting out, which was an escapism from probably alcoholism or alcohol, and then getting out and walking by myself because I didn't want to walk with anyone else, but then finding the you know therapeutic benefits. And then, when I started walking with anyone, with other people and leading people, when I've had that confidence because through qualifications, experience etc. What I do find now is people will come out and they may be reluctant to come out, but then all of a sudden there's this outpouring, or sometimes it's an outpouring, or even if it's just a conversation, the conversation flows yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 22:32

Um, you know I always tell the story that one of my favorite things with our events is that you meet up in a car park and there'll be 12, 15 strangers all staring at their own shoes and not wanting to make eye contact. And at the end of the walk they're coming down link time in Armand talking about where they're going to go on adventures together. But in between that you do get that, as people start walking Because you've not got fixed eye contact, you're not staring at each other over a table people start talking. You know, really, really relaxed and really natural, and some of the things you hear are like really, really heartwarming and yeah, and and it's not just them pouring out, it's the compassion of the people they're talking to and listen as well. They actually take that in and speak to them.

Speaker 3: 23:14

So I think that almost that peer support that happens in the events is is magic, it's absolute gold dust. Some people don't. Some people happily plod along and say nothing all day and thank us at the end of it they've had a great day and that's, that's all they wanted. But others others that do go to chat do chat and they get listened to and we signpost people where we need to, and but it's great. That's the magic of the events yeah, I was talking to.

Speaker 1: 23:41

I don't know we're talking yourself when I haven't told sam yet I'm currently going through some emdr treatment and this is just for well, it's. It's basically me. I'm not seeing the signs that through running the podcast and gaining knowledge and then, you know, speak at people like yourselves and running events, then things aren't always just right. I find it difficult doing the podcast. It's hard work because we get a lot of stories. We're doing a lot of talking, a lot of studying and you sort of take that on.

Speaker 1: 24:10

And this EMDR, which is eye movement, desensitization remedy and all it is is it can be done by sound or it can be done by movement or while you're talking to the sort of therapist. But if we break it down to its basics, walking is a low level EMDR because it's a bilateral movement and both hemispheres your brain are moving and then obviously you've got distractions by looking in nature. So, yeah, I mean I don't know why I'm alluding to that. Really it's just, you know, it's a proven therapy. This is the thing. People seem to be in shock that you're going out walking for mental health and there's lots and lots and lots of groups now popping up, walking and talking and you know Andy's man Club did a big one last week just going around the football murals in Leeds. Do you speak with any sort of mental health professionals about what you do?

Speaker 3: 25:06

Yeah, we do. In fact, we've had academic research done on our events, from feedback from attendees, to support what we're doing, to validate what we're doing uh, to validate what we're doing as well and and demonstrate that it does have impact on mental health, and I'll share them with you later. Charlie, I've got I've got quite a bit of research, but I know it's anecdotal, but we we know that, we know that it's good for us and the reason it's good for us is because it's what our brains want, and I always it's only my opinion this but people are starting to prove this through academia and I love the fact that I'm right and trying to prove me right.

Speaker 3: 25:43

I'm sure it's just my it's just my opinion, being very modest here that you know we crawled out the primordial soup and you know for however many tens of thousands of years that was ago, and what did we do? Right up until the 1850s, you know we fed off the land, we hunted our own food, we fished for our own food, everything was fresh, you worked hard and then all of a sudden we get the. You know the industrial age and steam and electric and lots of wars and and, and know the pace of life over the last 100 years 150 years is doing that. But subconsciously we're still down here, you know. You know we're driving up and down motorways, rushing from meeting to meeting and staring at screens all day, and it's instant gratification. You can get your phone and your food knocking on your door in 10 minutes and you can pick a film on your screen. And there it is, and there's just that little voice in the back of our head. That's just.

Speaker 3: 26:42

I just want to jump in puddles, I want to go for a walk in a field somewhere, and I think that disconnection with nature is really the gap that we're trying to bridge with Black Dog Outdoors. That disconnection with nature is is not helping mental health. It's not helping us to cope with the pace of life. Um, you know, everything's just too fast and too hard. You know we need to slow down and take a foot off the gas and go back. Go back to, subconsciously, what we're hardwired to do, which is being the outdoors yeah, I'm glad you.

Speaker 1: 27:12

I'm glad you said that, because I seem to bang on about it every episode. So, yeah, I mean we're on the same wavelength out there. Can I ask you, and we'll see how it goes, to see if it stays in? Have you come? I'm not singing what? No, have you come across any sort of resistance about what you do?

Speaker 3: 27:35

Yeah, without wanting to name and shame people, I think that there has been some resistance, certainly early days of the charity. Some people were suggesting that we were taking work away from the outdoor community. And I got that early days because we weren't paying anyone and it was sort of voluntary work. But then part of me is thinking, well, if they're coming to us but not going to you, well that sounds like a you problem. Yeah, and then recently in the last couple of years, as the funding started to come in, we were able to pay people now. So we actually paid people to take people out for a walk on the day out, which has been a big game changer. So you know those suggestions that we're taking food off people's table. We're actually providing that food now as a charity. So a little less conduced to bar.

Speaker 3: 28:25

But I've also heard stories of, you know, people in the in the outdoor profession that, yeah, don't don't quite get the idea of people being out in the mountains for their poor mental health and that they're a danger and they shouldn't happen. I've heard that it's nonsense. There's a segue from that, but it's on a similar vein. Why is mental health? Why is adventure good for mental health? Why is being in the mountains good for mental health? Specifically, I went to a lecture once. I can't remember the name of the lady that gave the lecture, but I found it fascinating. She talked for five minutes and it blew my mind that there's this, I'm going to get this the wrong way around and if she's watching this podcast she'll shoot me or something.

Speaker 3: 29:14

But if you have an adventure and you go through an experience and you build resilience and then you're more optimistic, so you've got something to look back on. So if you go through another issue in life, you can look back on it and go yeah, it's hard, but I did that thing and I got through that, and you continue to build that resilience through adventure. You can actually go through a traumatic experience and come out of it and learn from it positively. So it's post post post-traumatic growth rather than the you know what we all know as post-traumatic stress, where you come out of the traumatic and you're plagued by as you well know, charlie, you know. So they reckon that. You know, building that resilience through adventure is a good way to help overcome trauma in later life, and I really worry about children these days because of that, because you know like I started this, this podcast, talking I didn't have an ipad as a kid you know I didn't have netflix to sit in and watch it.

Speaker 3: 30:21

I climbed trees and I threw stones at my mates when they weren't my mates anymore, and you know we got into trouble in the woods. But you know we're always outside, we're always doing something and kids are so disconnected from nature at the moment. You know, I think we're gonna have a massive problem going forward because of that. But yeah, going back to my original point, you know that we've got to get people into mountainous environments. We've got to get them out paddling, got to get them out rock climbing, because that's that's where the adventure is and that's where you can build the resilience.

Speaker 3: 30:52

It's not for everybody except people. For a steady walk and in a hill or around a lake you get just because that's where the adventure is and that's where you can build the resilience. It's not for everybody. You can take people for a steady walk in a hill or around a lake. You get just as many positives from that. But being up in a mountain and being out in the elements, it certainly helps me in my life. I'm sure it helps you as well, charlie. That's why we do what we do.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Well, yeah, sometimes it's like I'm banging on and banging on and banging on about it, but I don't know where I would be if I hadn't found my way into the hill walking. And the thing was, yeah, the hill walking it's just a thing that I used to do in my youth, or going out and adventuring, and it were. You know why have I sat watching films on TV and hiding myself behind curtains and opening cans of bloody beer at ten in the morning, when I could be out walking and it's, you know, it's just this place. I've, like I said recently with the EMDR I won't go too far into it, but talking to the psychologist there and you know, you put these images in of they don't ask you questions directly, but they will say where is your safe space? And my safe space it's not a person or anything, it's being surrounded by trees and mountains. You know, that's the image that pops in. You know, just go with that image.

Speaker 1: 32:02

And what do you feel? Yeah, I feel comfortable. And what you've said there with the young people? Yeah, and we've said it on I think I don't know what podcast we mentioned it on now. So what's your thoughts on, without us both going ranty Right. Do you think we're making progress since COVID or not? Because I think there has. I personally think there's been a change in the way the outdoors is used. I think there's more users and people are actually saying get out there now.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Yeah, I'd wholeheartedly agree. There's more people seem to be spending time in in a more natural setting, um, with the families as well, which is good to see. People are seeing the benefits of it. I've always, I've always had this this other side of my brain which is like, yeah, it's great, I love the idea of lots of people going into the outdoors, but we've got to exercise some caution. It's got to be a, it's got to be an education piece as well. You know how to, how to access the outdoors safely and responsibly as well. And are we doing enough around that starting to see little glimmers of it.

Speaker 3: 33:02

You're going by a barbecue from most places now it'll come with a come with a warning and you know, don't use it in open walls kind of thing. It's getting there. That's my concern is that lots of people without the right knowledge and understanding of how to behave in the outdoors, it could become a problem. So it's got to be, there's got to be organisations out there like the BMC Mountain Training you, black Dog Outdoors, that are educating people and how to access the outdoors responsibly as well. But I see it as a good thing overall it's one of these and it's a double-edged sword.

Speaker 1: 33:40

We've got more people accessing the outdoors. Unfortunately that's means more, you know, you can tell people there's more people out because the amount of litter that's knocking about. But if we can take a positive from the litter it means people have actually been there If you wanted to take it and it make anything positive about littering. But the education I think we're all in agreement. The education needs to be there, really needs to be put in place, Because sometimes there's just not that respect for the outdoors, the environment, as there should be.

Speaker 3: 34:11

Yeah, and it puts a pressure and an increased burden on search and rescue teams as well. Mountain rescue teams. I know there's always been people that will go and fall down Gaping Hill, or there's always people that will get to the top of Snowdon and realise they've made a mistake by walking up in flip-flops and shorts in the rain. But we don't need to increase that, really do we? It's hard enough for those guys doing the job with normal levels of foot traffic.

Speaker 2: 34:39

You increase that it puts a massive burden on them as well. So bear with me here because I might be going off on a bit of a tangent, but it's a question towards the both of you and maybe what you think about it. Do you think going up the mountains, going around the outdoors, is it a whole exercise thing or is it a mind thing? The reason why I'm asking this is the way technology is currently going and to entice the youth taking them out. Do you reckon we could trick their minds by using VR technology and kind of replicate the outdoors? Or is it actually the smells, the activity you know, talking to other people while you're there, seeing things, feeling the altitude or not coping with the altitude? Can we replicate it?

Speaker 3: 35:29

digitally. It'd be a nice thought, it'd be a nice way to walk, be a nice way to to walk up a mountain in the warmth of your living room, but I I think, I think you'd miss out on the sense of all, in the sense of achievement, and you know mountaineering is a big part of that. It's, it's being, it's being lost in nature and you know, challenging yourself personally as well. You know I've had good mountain days, I've had bad mountain days, but I've never had a bad experience. I've never. I've never come away thinking, oh god, I'm never gonna climb a mountain again. Um, actually, the bad days are sometimes better than the good days for different reasons. You know, when you, you know, in an absolute hooli and you come down, that that bowl of chips is all the all the hotter, you know the pint of beer tastes even better, it's great.

Speaker 1: 36:13

Yeah, I'll be honest, there's uh. Again, coming back to the podcast and the amount of audiobooks that I go through and listen and I'm currently doing a course on nature therapy myself there's an awful lot going on. Just when you go for a walk, it's just a simple walk, and even a simple walk like dog walking, the bilateral movement, um, it's a thought, it's a form of therapy in itself. It's therapeutic benefits. Actually the physical side of it, the exercise, getting your heart rate up a little bit, breathing in fresh air. If you're walking through woodlands, you're walking, uh, you're breathing.

Speaker 1: 36:53

The chemicals in that are producing natural killer cells, um, decreasing your cortisone levels, increasing dopamine levels, it's. You know, we can go. You could, I mean, if we get, um, dave gallagher back on, I think we are doing. You know, going to the neuroscience of just what happens when you're walking is ridiculous, but it's what we're supposed to do. And you mentioned there, andy, about awe. You know and I've mentioned this on the podcast before you know the science of awe and what it does, what it instills in people by actually being out.

Speaker 1: 37:30

And I think, with VR actually, I did, I had some, I did vr a couple of weeks ago, young people that I work with and I nearly fell over in this room, but I don't. You're getting that sensory, you're getting that, that visual, audio visual but I don't think you're getting in a. I suppose technology is suppose technology is moving that way that you could actually get these chemicals, natural chemicals. You could get a breeze moving over your skin, you could probably get rain. You know what I mean, the way it's going. Now, myself, I'm of a certain age that I would say, no, get yourselves out and go do it. I don't know about walking. Get yourselves out and go do it, you know I don't know about walking. You know, would you want to do Kilimanjaro with a VR set in your front room?

Speaker 2: 38:17

No, probably not, but where I was coming from is potentially it might entice or, you know, it might be an icebreaker for young people to entice them in future to go outdoors, because a lot of people might not be aware what the outdoors are and they might be too scared to take that first step and you know it might lead to more yeah, as an introduction.

Speaker 3: 38:41

Yes, yeah, I could see your point there. I could see where you're coming from. Yeah, that I'd be good. I mean, technology is advancing, like, like you say, charlie, I went to blackpool a few years ago and watched a video when the floor vibrated and spray came out and it was just like being on the seafront. You could forget the fact that you were sat on a seat indoors. It was bizarre. So, yeah, the technology is there to do that. I just wouldn't ever want to see that to become an instead of going out for a walk on a mountain.

Speaker 1: 39:11

Yeah, I think maybe again personal opinion if we go to Scandinavia or if we think about Scandinavia, them countries have continued with their young people Education system is outdoor-based, even in minus 30. The prams are all lined up with the babies outside and they're wrapped up, but these youngsters are, they're doing what's natural. It's nature, you know, it's nature we are. I think we get away from the fact that we are basically animals. We're part of the animal kingdom and, as you said earlier, andy, there is a couple of hundred years of industrial and convenience it's taking away and this is why we wonder why it's you know, why is there a mental health crisis? You know people are falling to bits because we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. So, yeah, but then from the VR or technology side, I would like to think that somebody with a disability or somebody that couldn't have that option, it may be there for them, which would be nice. That's a good point. Yeah, I do think.

Speaker 1: 40:20

I don't know what your thoughts on it, without me getting myself into trouble, there is still quite a lot of elitism in the sort of outdoor mountain world, and that puts people off as well.

Speaker 1: 40:29

You know, I got into a bit of a spat obviously facebook spat when I used to do that with outdoor instructors, saying, you know, we should basically stop young, you stop people going up the mountains in these cheap, cheap stuff they get from sports directs and things like that. You're like, well, what about the? What about the young people that I'm working with that don't have the money to go out and buy all this equipment? Obviously it should be. They should be. We try and keep them safe. But then again, if we cotton wool wrap everyone, how are they learning? You know we've got to move the parameter. Let them move their parameters a little bit. Let them get out and let them get wet as long as they're not gonna. You know it might be uncomfortable, but they're having an experience and then they could take that away because they're building that resilience rather than being super risk-adversary like Noah Caddo was.

Speaker 3: 41:17

No, you're dead right, you can't. There is still an element of elitism there and you look at Facebook, there's also a lot of bragging rights and bravado around mountaineering. As I look what I did this week, I found it quite off-putting. I've got a different way in my mountaineering. We'll talk about that later. But to answer your question, I've got to take groups up. Not every family can afford to dress their kids head to foot in Rab.

Speaker 2: 41:44

I can't.

Speaker 3: 41:44

I'm a civil engineer. It's getting expensive 50 quid for a beanie hat just because it's got Rab written on it. Pick it on Rab, there Could be Monte, could be any brand 50 quid for a I ain't got to deal with them, so that's fine 50 quid and for a group of kids that are going out for a day on a mountain.

Speaker 3: 42:02

You know, a 15 pound raincoat's fine, they're going to get wet. You get wet wearing I wear a lot of rap gear. Brand brand ambassador I'm not, but you know I wear some good gear. I've always paid good money for hard shells but they leak after a time. You know, if you're out in it all day, you get wet, you know. So you know, I think we've got to stop this this. Yeah, kids are walking up in a 12 pound pack and mack and they shouldn't be on the hill nonsense, you know. Get them on a hill, get them wet. Actually get them used to being out in the rain and the wind, because that's what they're missing in life at the moment.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Definitely. Can I ask you where do you see Black Dog Outdoors in five years' time?

Speaker 3: 42:43

Hopefully still relevant and I think still relevant. Yeah, continuing to inspire people to get out in the outdoors, continue to work with service user groups. It is so hard when you think about where you want the future to be, and what makes it hard is it's all funding driven, so we'll only ever be as big as the volume of money that comes into the charity. We're not for profit, so it's money in, money out, but if the money's there, there's opportunity to expand and grow and support more people. You'll know yourself, charlie, I'll be very good at what I say here, very deliberate.

Speaker 3: 43:17

I know how much hard work goes on behind the scenes and growth isn't always a good thing. Growth could lead to burnout, it could lead to loss of enjoyment and you know we see a lot of really great startups that just fizzle out because of that, because they've tried to push too hard too fast. Become too something different, and I've always rebelled at things within black dog not not always to people's liking. You know we've had offers of people going out taking people doing winter skills. Well, we're an organization that wants to introduce people into the outdoors. If they're already thinking of winter skills, our work here is done, so it's always being really guarded about things like that, but continuing to what we do to the best that we can.

Speaker 3: 43:59

You know it's always about the quality as well. You know, quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality either. Um, the right people involved at the right time, doing the right things. So still around is to answer your question. Still around, still still saying, still still, uh, still enjoying. It is where I want to be in five years. And if we're delivering 200 events or we're delivering 50 events, I don't care, as long as we're supporting people, but the main thing is that we're doing it with a smile on his face is, um, there's no burnout, uh, and and we're actually, we're actually relevant and what we're doing is meaningful. That's where I want to be still around.

Speaker 1: 44:35

I think, yeah, it's perfect really For my way of thinking. I know some people might not think that way, but you know, introducing people, that introductory level, you know where you fight against the sort of elitist perspective. You know, I'm still known as that bouncer from Leeds, I'm not known as the, you know, iml and WintML, et cetera, et cetera. It's that bouncer from Leeds. But yeah, that introductory level is so important of getting people on their first steps and, like you said earlier on, you know, and I totally agree, the hardest step is that first step into getting up and getting out. Seb, would you think we'll still be doing this in five years With?

Speaker 2: 45:17

a smile on his face. I do have a smile on his face on camera, but sometimes I rip my hair out. Potentially, potentially we might have moved on to a different project. Who knows?

Speaker 1: 45:31

We definitely won't be saying, if we're doing this in another five years andy?

Speaker 2: 45:34

how would people find you, get in touch with you? How can people join you?

Speaker 3: 45:39

it's been a long day. That was a tough question. Why did you throw that one my way? Uh, people can head to the website, which is wwwblackdogoutdoorscouk or one word black dog outdoors. Uh, head over onto Facebook, where you'll find us on Facebook, linkedin, no longer active on Twitter, because the ex-farm they don't want us, prince Farm, they don't want us Twitter, whatever it is these days, and we're on LinkedIn as well. So, yeah, just reach out via any of those channels and you'll get get hold of us cool, right, I will put that.

Speaker 1: 46:10

Oh said, we'll put that in the show notes and, um, this should be out pretty soon, mate. So what I'd like to say is a big thank you, one for joining us and two for all the great work you're doing. You know, and I think what you said earlier, uh, you know, about all these groups, there's a lot of people now doing walking, talking, you know, helping people, and it seems where it's. For myself, it seems that we're in a good place, as in working in the same direction, as in not a competition, because there is and there's such a big need. Yeah, it's, you know, it's not like limited numbers, is it this? We're not, you know, people aren't. People aren't scrapping over a few people to bring it, get them on their course.

Speaker 3: 46:51

There's plenty to go around, Unfortunately. Maybe that was the answer to your earlier question. Where do I want to be in five years? Maybe I want mental health to have decreased to such a level that we're no longer important and required. Yeah, maybe that's where I want to be. Can't say it now.

Speaker 1: 47:11

Yeah, that'd be nice. No, no, yeah, let's not that. We don't want to end on an optimistic note, otherwise we'll be putting ourselves out of a podcast as well. So thanks a lot for joining us, andy. We will be in touch, we'll get this out and, yeah, thanks again.

Speaker 3: 47:27

Cheers yeah, thank you, andy thanks for having us on your anniversary.