E49: The Elemental Challenge to Well-Being: Helen Gough's Vision for Outdoor Accessibility

Embarking on a transformative outdoor journey, Helen tale of transition from a theology and finance background to a champion of inclusivity in outdoor adventure captivates us in this episode. Her brainchild, the Elemental Challenge Award and Welcome in the Wild initiative, breaks barriers, inviting everyone to find joy in the wild, regardless of their past experiences or perceived limitations. We chat about the spark that lit the flame for this project and how Helen's "customer research" led to a wave of adults flocking to rediscover the adventures they might have missed during their younger years.

As we wade through the lush terrain of mental and physical well-being, the conversation turns to the Well-Being in the Outdoors Challenge. Helen and I dissect the five pillars of the challenge—move, learn, give, protect, and explore—unpacking the immense benefits these simple activities hold for our mental health. We emphasize how accessible and lifeline-like these practices are, ensuring that anyone, irrespective of their background, has the opportunity to thrive.

The episode concludes with heartwarming anecdotes of resilience and personal triumph within the adventure challenge, highlighting individuals who discovered their hidden strengths and self-worth amidst trials. We acknowledge the indispensable role of community support and the gradual, but potent, influence of consistent effort in shaping one's well-being. Our discourse extends to the societal impact of such programs, underscoring the urgency of community-centric solutions in addressing broader health issues. Helen's passion and our shared insights offer a powerful reminder of the enduring influence of adventure and the great outdoors in nurturing our collective journey towards a healthier, more fulfilled existence.

Website

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Mark Johnley-Valentine, and in the studio with me is Seb.

Speaker 1: 0:08

Hi Charlie, hello Seb, how are you Good? Very well, thanks, keeping well, yeah, healthy.

Speaker 2: 0:13

It seems like ages since I've spoke to you. Oh no, it was yesterday, yesterday, and the day before, and the day before and the day before. It's good, we're back on it, aren't we? We're back on getting these podcasts. I do say in the can, in the business In the can, do they? I think so, don't know, in the can. Yeah, another one in the can, the White Fox Talking podcast, is sponsored by Energy Impact. So, helen Goff, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3: 0:38

Whereabouts in the world are you? I'm in very, very west Wales, right on the coast in between Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Oh nice.

Speaker 3: 0:46

Yeah, very lucky.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Yeah, some good climbing down there. Pembrokeshire I've been there a couple of times. Could you just give us and the listeners a brief introduction about why we're here, what you do, and then we'll get into about Elemental Challenge.

Speaker 1: 1:01

Don't give them everything.

Speaker 3: 1:04

Everything. So I mean I have a day job, should I should probably say that I have like a grown-up, proper job. Um, so I work for the scouts, based in wales, but then, uh, the reason I'm here really is to talk about the elemental challenge award, which is community interest company and it's a little bit like the duke of enver award, but for grown-ups, because there was this massive gap, like there just wasn't anything for adults and I didn't get to do DV when I was younger. So, like in my school, the only kids that really got to do it were if you were like, I think, at risk of dropping out or I don't know, certainly like I was never offered it and I felt like I missed out. So I was furloughed during Covid. Are we allowed to talk about that missed out?

Speaker 2: 1:45

so, um, I was furloughed like during covid. Are we allowed to talk about that that? Generally, there's something comes back to covid because it were massive and yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:51

So I was furloughed. And then I remember having this conversation with one of my colleagues who was furloughed saying, chris, have you ever had like this idea of setting up an outdoors company, like just to get away from your laptop? And he's like, have have, here's my business plan. And I was like, oh my God, here's my business plan. And we ended up setting up something completely different. But we set up this outdoors company which was called Welcome in the Wild and that was about getting more people outdoors, especially those who didn't feel like they were welcome or didn't feel like it was their place to be. And so we set that up and we started running that and it was great. And then I had this idea and I was like, chris, I think we should do like this, something a bit like Duke of Edinburgh, like this, challenging that adults can do, it's open to everyone. And he's like, oh, I don't think, I don't think it's got any legs, I don't think, I don't think it'll run.

Speaker 3: 2:41

And I was a little bit of I like to call it customer research. It was really a few posts on outdoor related Facebook sites, but it just blew up. It went massive, like people saying they hadn't done it as a kid or that their kids were doing it and they wish they could join in, and so, right, we've got a pilot. So we did this pilot, which was amazing. We had this amazing group of people who took part, and then we launched. So we're just coming in like in our second year now. So, yeah, just running this amazing thing and I call it like a sideline, but actually I spend four days a week doing this and then three days in me grown-up job. So, yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2: 3:17

I think that's a bit like us a minute with podcast. Let's just put a podcast out and it's just taking over his life. It's another full-time job without pay. A couple of things there, actually, because I was speaking to a guy who was coming on the podcast and I was mentioning that we were doing recording a podcast with yourself and trying to explain it and he said what's DAV? And he's the same age as me Now. Fortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to do DAV in our Duke of Edinburgh ward in central Leeds in the 80s. It was more about avoiding getting run over by stolen cars and things like that. But I went on to be like an assessor for DV, so I know the value of it and the value for the young people and the makeup of it. Can I just ask you, before we get to that, about your background, as in relating to Scouts and running an outdoor company?

Speaker 3: 3:59

I've had this I don't know, I probably call it a squiggly career Like never ever meant to go into the outdoors. Didn't grow up outdoorsy at all. Like my family. We didn't go camping, we didn't go hiking. My dad was a scout leader but when I was young you couldn't have girls in scouts, which obviously you can now, and you have been able to for about 30 years, which probably tells you how old I am.

Speaker 3: 4:19

So, yeah, like I did a theology degree, which is quite unusual probably for a lot of people working in the outdoors Then worked in finance. I worked in investments for quite a while. After I graduated I lived with nuns for a year it's like a gap year, so that was pretty interesting. Then moved into social housing, which I loved, so that you know I started to see there was a theme running through the work I was doing. So it was all about including people and about making sure that people got opportunity, that they could thrive.

Speaker 3: 4:46

So it's not just you've got the basics. How can we help people, you know, live a better life? And then I've worked for the Red Cross. So I did some work for the British Red Cross, which is where I met my wife, so I've got to give a shout out to that. And then moved into working for an overseas development charity, so CAFOD, which is an amazing organization, worked in the education section there and then moved into the international team, which was where, like, that was the dream. It'd always been the dream. I'm going to admit this now. I was inspired by Annika Rice. Do you remember watching Challenge, annika?

Speaker 1: 5:18

A bit before my time?

Speaker 3: 5:19

no, I shall yes, I do, but I remember she did this episode in Romania and it was around like the aftermath of Ceausescu and the orphanages and I swear that's what it was, the catalyst that got us thinking like that's what I want to do. You know, I want London, did loads of travel and we'd always, like my wife and I, would always have this dream that we would move to West Wales when we retired because we couldn't work out how we could get a job there and it was really difficult. And then this job came up with scouts and it was like scouts coming in and saying like you could be based anywhere in West Wales. I was like, oh my God, so I've got to apply for well, this is my 10th year now. So, yes, we moved to West Wales, started working with scouts to support in local scouts. That's all delivered by volunteers. Like we've got almost 5,000 adult volunteers across Wales, which just blows my mind that we've got that.

Speaker 3: 6:20

So I support them. So whatever they need, so it might be. Um, we need more young people in the group. We need more adult helpers. This is a genuine one. The goat keeps getting into my campsite. How do I stop goats getting into my campsite? So like massively wide ranging, which I love, but then we got furloughed during covid, you know, and it was what to do, and someone had suggested to me that I do the lowland leader award with mountain training and I've never heard of it.

Speaker 3: 6:46

I don't know what you're talking about and she explained it and I went. Well, you must be insane, because I people like me don't do that. Like I'm not outdoorsy I'm not. I was running the online community for a women's adventure community, lover wild, and you don't have to have qualifications. That's about bringing people together, just getting them outdoors, encouraging more people, more people to be active and she was like no, you'd be great.

Speaker 3: 7:06

I think you should do it and I honestly thought it was the most ridiculous thing I'd heard. But she must have put Beck's band who runs that. She's really good at putting a little seed of an idea in your brain and it just eats away. And so during furlough, when things were starting to come back, I was like, right, I sign up for this lowland leader course. Loved it, absolutely loved it, thought it was the best thing ever, was terrified, like I'm going to be the fattest, slowest, most unfit, least skilled, couldn't use a map, couldn't use a compass Did this course loved it.

Speaker 3: 7:37

Obviously, you then do your consolidation phase where you practice it all. Then you go for assessment. And so Chris, the colleague I was furloughed with, I was like Chris, like I'm not, like 100% confident, I'm going to pass the assessment, but let's work on the assumption. So let's set this business up. He had tons of experience, you know, he'll just go off in the mountains for days and doesn't phase them at all. So we kind of set up this business. It was just about saying do you know what the rules around getting back outdoors after covid are relaxing, we can start taking people out. We're better to be, you know, than out outdoors, we're not stuck inside, we're getting fresh air. We've all probably suffered a little bit with physical well, lack of physical activity. So we set that up initially and I think, looking back, it was almost like a trial, like we'd neither of us had run a business. It was insane. I was like Googling how to set up a business, how to set up a community interest company, I mean. Other search engines are available, obviously, but the information was all there. So we set it up, made loads of mistakes, but it was great and I still run that a little bit.

Speaker 3: 8:38

But I think the focus now is elemental. So that's kind of taken a little bit of a backseat. Seat got one more event I'm running this year with my friend's amazing daughter, avi. So we're going to be running a navigation day for young people and Avi's helping to run it, which is really exciting. So, yeah, we started running that and I think elemental just came out of that. The thing actually getting people outdoors is great and giving them the skills and confidence is great, but actually there's a bit more and that's it. That is still a part of elemental. There's still like the mini expedition kind of challenge, but there's also stuff around giving back to your community. So it might be formal volunteering, but it you know it doesn't have to be, it can be really informal. It's learning new skills that like. It's just much broader yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:21

So if we broke it down, what would be the the main point of people engaging on the scheme? And then what we'll do is go through the schemes and see what participants would expect, could expect, and gain out of it that's a really big question, like what's the?

Speaker 3: 9:35

point what's the?

Speaker 3: 9:39

focus, not what's the point do you know, I think, what it does, because, if I'm honest, there's nothing that you would do in the challenge that you couldn't just go off and do on your own. I mean, that's the reality. But what it gives people is a bit of a framework, and it gives you we've got like an online community. So if you join, you get access to this online community. So there's a bit of accountability, because we all know that actually getting up to go for that run in the morning is pretty hard, especially in the winter. But if you've arranged to meet someone or you've told someone what your plan is, you know I'm going to run this 5k in six weeks. So there's, I think there's, there's the framework and there's.

Speaker 3: 10:15

It's almost like it's that structure that some people need, and I think, especially when you're talking about mental wellbeing, for a lot of people, and for me included, structure is really helpful, and so I think it's just given that it's a reason to do it, because it is well. Why would I no-transcript course on geology that I've always wanted to do? So it's almost like giving yourself permission, which, for me, we shouldn't have to, but I think we do so. I mean, that's why it exists and I think there's loads to unpack under that. There's a bit of like do we get to play as adults Because you don't really like? It's a bit like you know, scouts earn these badges and that's amazing. You don't really get to do that as a grown-up, do you?

Speaker 3: 11:00

no, not really, I think anyway, unless you're sporty, which is great. But not everyone like not everyone's going to go to the local triathlon club or join the rugby club, because it's scary for some people and or they don't feel fit enough it was at the adventure mind conference where I spoke to jane about this yeah dropped you an email, or did you drop me an email?

Speaker 2: 11:19

I'll lose track.

Speaker 3: 11:20

I think jane dropped you an email or did you drop me an email? I'll lose track. I think Jean dropped you an email. She's been very good.

Speaker 2: 11:24

I think we've established on the podcast and Seb knows I'm not that great at the admin side because of my own neurodiversity so is there an emphasis on the well-being, the mental well-being, and what we can gain from, or what a person can gain from being in the outdoors, or not just the outdoors, just having that focus?

Speaker 3: 11:41

Yeah, and I think it. I think wellbeing probably underpins the whole thing. So it's not we don't push it as being like a wellbeing award but so we've got five elements like across the challenge award. So you've got move. So like being physically active. So we all know like being physically active, obviously it's for your physical well-being, but we also know it's good for your mental well-being, right? So whether that's indoors or outdoors, being physically active is going to be good. Then we've got learn. So we've got learning a new skill. So, as you're keeping our neural pathways active, learning use of that, like the whole feeling of I've learned something new, like I feel clever, I've achieved something that's really good for our mental well-being. So we've got that.

Speaker 3: 12:22

Then we've got give, which is it can be formal volunteering, but it can be informal, so it might be. I'm just going to weed the community flower bed in my village. Every time I walk past to go to the bus, I'll pull some weeds out. And again, we know that giving back to people, being kind, alters our brain. So it's releasing those happy chemicals. But actually there's studies that will tell you that if especially there's a big study in volunteers over 60, that actually they have much better physical health and much better mental health and less anxiety. And again, because you're creating networks, aren't you? So if you're volunteering, you're probably connecting to other people, so that's boosting your wellbeing. We've then added in this protect element, which taking action, taking action for the planet or, you know, to halt climate change, and that one.

Speaker 3: 13:09

I think a lot of that is done outdoors. It doesn't have to be. Lots of people are doing some indoor challenges for that, but again, you're outdoors. Same with the explore the majority of people are doing that outdoors. They're doing an expedition if they're physically and mentally able to do that.

Speaker 3: 13:23

And again, god, the amount of research about spending time in nature, spending time with trees, being in fresh air, on top of the fact that you're probably pushing yourself to do something you've probably didn't think you could do or a bit scared to do, because most people who are on the challenge award certainly those who've done their explore haven't hiked and camped on their own before Might, have done it with friends, or some have never done it before ever, which is amazing that they're doing it.

Speaker 3: 13:51

So I think the mental well-being underpins the whole thing, even though it's not marketed like come and do this and your mental well-being will be amazing, but I hope it is. It's not a magic, not a magic wand, but I do think people probably feel better and some of the feedback we get it tells us that that is working. Like one of our participants, we always ask when they submit evidence how did that challenge make you feel? And one person just wrote back joyous and I was like that's amazing. You know, like if we can help people to feel joyous, even if it's temporary, even if it lasts a week or a day, but they know they can get to that state by doing it, it's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 14:32

I should probably make clear that I haven't set this answer up because this is what I keep banging on about through my own pathway from, through PTSD was getting out in the mountains, getting out that sense of awe, being in nature, walking, so the exercise. And then just recently I just did a forest bathing diploma, so it's all about trees, which was amazing. And, to be fair, I think, and you passed, and I passed, I got a distinction. So I'll be honest, when I signed up for it, 150 hours of online learning fills me, fills me with I can't read emails, I can't read a block of words without it all scattering. But I think, because I was sort of focused and I wanted to do it, I just broke it down little sections, so I'm like wow, and then when my results come past, so yeah, obviously it's not set up, I do pick the guests a couple questions.

Speaker 1: 15:14

Helen, did you say there were five challenges or five stages?

Speaker 3: 15:17

yes, there's five elements.

Speaker 3: 15:20

So you've've got move, learn, give, protect and then explore, which is like your mini expedition. But, as I said, one of the key things and this was really important for me is that this is completely accessible. So it doesn't matter what your starting point is, it doesn't matter, you can do this even if you can't leave your house. So if mentally or physically you can't get out of your house, we've got ways that you can make this challenge work for you. So if you're looking at like, let's say, explore and you can't leave the house, but actually you can say, right, I'm going to explore Italy this weekend and you set your two days and one night aside and you can do like the online tours of museums or the online tour of the Vatican. So maybe that's what you do for your explore and maybe your learn has been to learn some Italian, so you've linked it in. And then the evening, maybe you're going to cook an Italian meal for a friend or a family member. So there are ways that we can make it work, because that's just so important for me that you don't have to be fit, you don't have to be able to hike up Ben Nevis, you don't have to be fit, you don't have to be able to hike up ben nevis, you don't have to be able to wild camp and some people like for them it's massive that they're leaving their house on their own and contemplating staying in a b&b because they've never done it. They've never stayed overnight anywhere on their own. So I'm like that's fine. It doesn't have to be in a bivy bag or a tent and you know, not everyone loves that. Get that. Not everyone thinks that's a fun night out. So it's super adaptable.

Speaker 3: 16:44

And actually we've got a group of people so Daisy Inclusive UK, so they work with people with physical disability, disabled people, vulnerable people. They've brought a group on board so they're running it themselves, supporting this group of their service users and people who visit them to do the award, and I love that. And they've had to make some changes. They can't do an overnight because a lot of personal care issues. So that's great, you don't have to. They're going to do two day visits and then probably like an online campfire like for the evening, and that's brilliant. You know that that's still exploring a new place, it's learning, it's still getting that excitement of going somewhere you've never been before. They're adapting their overnight experience so that it fits for them.

Speaker 1: 17:29

With technology these days, you'd be able to pull up videos from anywhere in the world, couldn't you?

Speaker 3: 17:35

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 17:35

I suppose we should just say I didn't set that question up either. My granddad was Italian as well. I'm a psych psychic. Should just say I didn't set that question up either because my granddad was it.

Speaker 1: 17:45

My granddad was italian so the second thing that I was going to get back to your participants and you mentioned that you asked them to provide evidence so do they log what they learn, what they give, what they protect, like?

Speaker 3: 17:57

I've been running for 10k today and I picked up three cola cans and three sweet wrappers and I learned about this yeah, yeah, no, and it's a really good question because we thought really long and hard about how we did this and at the end of the day, we kind of went well, we're all adults and we trust each other.

Speaker 1: 18:16

You know, like there is that element, yeah, element, element of trust needs to be there, yeah, but the way it works.

Speaker 3: 18:21

So someone will decide what challenge they want to do. And for their bronze it starts at bronze and for bronze award it's spread over three months. So you do three months for your move. Learn, give your protect is a one-off action, but we ask you to make a bit of noise about that and try and get other people to get involved or to take action as well. Over the three months. We ask you to put a plan in.

Speaker 3: 18:46

So for Move, someone will submit their plan through our website and we ask them questions like what are you going to do when? How are you going to evidence it? So we ask to make sure that they've thought through how they're going to do that, like how will you know if you've achieved your goal? And so they submit that and then one of the coach awards me or Jane at the minute. We look at that and go that's brilliant, crack on, love it.

Speaker 3: 19:02

They then go and do their challenge and their recording evidence. So if it's Mu, for example, they might be using Strava, you know, or similar, like using their smartwatch to record it. They might keep a training diary, they might take photographs when they're out on their runs and for some like we've had a few people who do couch to 5k, so it might be well, actually they've gone from nothing. And then they run, they do a park run or they do like a charity 5k event, and so they send us that evidence and when they submit their evidence again, we ask them like a lot of questions so what did you do? Did you achieve your goal? Was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything that you found particularly all? Was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything that you found particularly challenging or easier than you thought?

Speaker 3: 19:44

And then they've got the opportunity to like send photos or media clippings or and we get a huge variety like sometimes we'll get a volunteer coordinator might write, email us and say like this you know this person's done this many hours, or they've been volunteering over three months, so so there is an element of trust and I kind of think you know if someone's gone to the effort to make up a challenge and submit it and, to be fair, they'll have had to have paid to do to get to that stage. They're pretty committed. I don't think they're gonna do it and, with the best will in the world, we're not that well known yet. So no one's going to go into.

Speaker 3: 20:20

Well, I've got my bronze elemental challenge award and someone goes. Oh you, the job's yours. Yeah, you know. So I think there is an element of trust, but I think, as far as I'm aware, so far, no one's, no one's pulled the wool over our eyes yet I didn't really want to go down the teething road, I was just more, more, asking if you actually keep track with the people, the participants there's got to be.

Speaker 2: 20:41

They've got that element of motivation just to join up before the element of motivation to under under undertake whatever their challenge is, which is possibly, if they're doing it.

Speaker 3: 20:50

It's a step in the right direction anyway yeah, I and I think what's really interesting and this, I've got a question for you. Actually that's kind of off?

Speaker 3: 20:57

no, it's no, it's a really good one. What's a simple one? At the minute, we've like over, well over 50 of our participants are women, right, and that's you know. There's there's not a problem with that. But we'd love to attract more men because we know that, like there's a mental health crisis for men, right, and, and what we want to do is support more men to have that framework, to have the accountability to get more active. And the reason I had a question for you is because I noticed on, I was looking back over your previous guests and again, I selected about two-thirds of your guests, I think, are men and I was wondering is that like intentional, because you're talking about well-being and really want to bring more?

Speaker 2: 21:32

women. Right, we've got a couple of things there. So I think, with you having saying you've got like 50, 50 or more women than men, that's a great thing, because in the outdoors outdoors, as in the instructor side of it there seems to be a lot more men, 100%, yeah, yeah. Well, it is my own opinion, but for some people, maybe my age and upwards I think the mountain and mountaineering scene is a lot quite elitist and ball swinging and I think that puts some women Don't be like that. Well, you know what I mean. It's all about how high I've climbed and how much you know, how fast I can go, and stuff like that, which I really don't like, I really resent that?

Speaker 3: 22:08

Yeah, it's about conquering, isn't it? There's that real. I've conquered this. I've achieved that. Yeah, I do think there's. I'd agree with that.

Speaker 2: 22:22

I don't think it's a level playing field. Sometimes you know people carrying. You know people of different sizes and different physical sizes having to carry the same amount of weight and things. We're not out working. It's not an SAS bloody selection, is it? You know people are out to be instructors you should all be competent, but then working in your own area. So it's brilliant that you've got that balance and I'm just wondering if that's because your award is not focused. You're letting people set their own challenges at the minute. You know, I mean because sometimes what question I do get asked is how many guys will be on this assessment. And I've had that before where really, yeah, because a lady might come on it and not want to be surrounded by a load of guys ball swinging, but they won't be on one of my assessments. So I'll be telling you.

Speaker 3: 22:58

But yeah, no, and I think you're right when it comes to the outdoors. But I think because the award, if you look like the volunteering bit and they're just being physically active and the protect they're not, you know, it's really just the expedition bit that feels a bit more. You know outdoors with a capital o um. But yeah, I think one thing we were, I was really conscious of that some people are not going to have those skills. So what we've got is some outdoor providers have come on board.

Speaker 3: 23:26

So if someone's in, actually I'd like to do the hiking and camping but I'm too scared or I haven't got the skills or I don't feel it would be safe. Yet We've got a few outdoor providers and we're looking for more who can deliver like the two day, one night that would. It would allow you to complete your explore challenge. So it's not. You can't just go on this like two day, one night where you get your kit list and you get told where to turn up and you get given your you know your food on the, you know, on the route and they carry your bags for you or they do all of the navigation.

Speaker 3: 23:57

That's not what we're looking for. But we've got some who are running like two day, one night introduction to navigation. So you have a meeting beforehand and you say, right, let's think as a group, what do we need to make us safe? What kind of kit are we going to need? Let's have a look at the route, how are we going to plan the route? And then day one, they learn the navigation skills. Day two, they kind of take it in turns to lead the route. So that fulfills, you know. So we've got and Wayne from High Tide Adventure, who I met at Adventure Mind. We've had conversations with him coming on board because he's up in the northeast. We've got Nicola with Ginger Roots, who's in the Lake District. We've got Sian Brewer, who's Bristol, but we're always looking for more. You know, if people are saying, well, actually I run something similar, then get in touch. We'd love to hear from you, because some people, where do you learn those skills?

Speaker 3: 24:49

You know, if you haven't been in scouts or guides, or you haven't done, duke of Edinburgh. Where have you got those skills from as an adult?

Speaker 2: 24:55

Yeah, I mean we can chat afterwards about that another time about that for the auction.

Speaker 3: 24:59

Yeah, that'd be great.

Speaker 2: 25:00

Just going back to the question that you did ask me before I forget about our guest sort of ratio. I'll be honest, most of the guests up to now, we're getting to this sort of area now where the podcast becoming known and we're getting people that I don't personally know. So a lot, a lot of the people that have been on the guest I've personally known, or sebs personally known, and we've invited them on and just thought they've got a really good story. It's not intentional now, probably a personal opinion is. You know, there is a big thing about men's mental health. I think that's because of the suicide rates. Yeah, now, I was reading somewhere I as long as I didn't dream it that, um, men's mental health, women's mental health, are you more likely to suffer a mental health issue if you're women, female, but it's men that tend to take their own lives and that's why, yeah, that's why, there's so much more sort of press about it.

Speaker 2: 25:49

Um, yeah and I think, I think women are a bit stronger sometimes just because of their role in the house and yeah, I think there's a lot of research into that.

Speaker 3: 25:57

Isn't there that and and that? You know hands up. I'm not mental health expert at all and you know a lot of the stuff I do. It's anecdotal but you know it's. We know that it's well documented.

Speaker 2: 26:09

They've been outdoors and just on that note, do you have any sort of inkling of the sort of maybe mental health issues that people may have that are joining your scheme?

Speaker 3: 26:21

Not really. I mean, we certainly don't ask that.

Speaker 3: 26:24

You know we have had participants. I've got one participant she's absolutely amazing Flew through a bronze straight onto silver. She had quite a lot of health challenges and that when we know that that she was really open with us about that because she wanted to change some of her challenges, and actually for her that was quite hard and I know that she did struggle mentally with that and she had to step back and she had to take a break just to kind of focus on herself really and get back into that headspace because she felt that actually her silver challenges were less challenging than her bronze, which on paper maybe they did look like, but for her it was way more challenging because her physical health had taken such a beating really. So we know, like anecdotally, that some people tell us because they want to change their plans or they need to take a break, all of which is absolutely fine, but it's not something that we ask and it's not.

Speaker 3: 27:18

We have got that online community, but I think we haven't got the critical mass of numbers yet where there's. You know, we want a little bit more interaction, we want to see a little bit more peer support and that's building, but it's not where we want it to be yet. So I think we're not necessarily getting those stories. It's only really, when people put their evidence in, they might have said I actually found that much more difficult than I was expecting, or I've actually, you know, it's increased my self-confidence a bit, because that was really low and that's probably. We see more of that. I realized I can achieve more than I thought, or I didn't know that I was going to be able to do that and I'm really proud of myself that I've managed it.

Speaker 2: 27:55

But yeah, we don't get specifics um, yeah, I'm just thinking, then, that there must be or am I assuming there must be something in it that's rewarding for yourselves to know that you're making a difference to people's lives, to be putting yourselves out there and also you, you know, going to these conferences, coming on podcasts your first podcast, I believe it is. Yes, we did chat about that. Well done for holding it together, but there must be something there that keeps driving you forward to keep this going?

Speaker 3: 28:25

Yeah, for sure. And like you know I don't get paid, you know I don't take a salary from it. Yet I'm going to use that growth mindset yet.

Speaker 3: 28:33

yeah, yeah, yeah it is, I think, because I had people that helped me. So, bex from lover wild, having that faith in me that I could do something that I honestly thought was ridiculous, and wanting to give a bit back. And then you get um, I've written. I did write this um quote down that one of our participants said, because I thought this is I mean I should pay her to be our marketing person because I couldn't have written it. So when we asked the question did you achieve your goal? Liz said yes, maybe not the exact goal I thought it was going to be, but one that was bigger and more important that I am enough, that I am capable and that I can do the things I set my mind to. And and I was just like, oh my gosh, if we're helping people to feel that, then it's worth it, because that's flippin' amazing, isn't it, if someone can turn around and say I realise I'm more than I thought I was, I'm capable of more than I thought I could do, and be gosh.

Speaker 2: 29:27

Yeah, I think that all falls into this adventure thing. That is it Absolutely. What people sort of gain by setting off on that's. All falls into this adventure thing. That is it. And um, absolutely what people. What people sort of gain by setting off on their own adventures that they might not have expected. You know, an adventure might be a to b or a to c via b, but this mind growth which they're gaining by doing this, yeah, absolutely, and I think for a lot of people it's a shock, I think.

Speaker 3: 29:50

I genuinely think some people sign up and they go. I'll be really easy. I'll just I'll volunteer in the local charity shop and I'll maybe I'll do a walk, you know, on the South Wales course path for two days because I live near there and I've been on it. And then actually they've got that commitment of doing the three months of volunteering, the three months of physically being active. And it depends what you choose. For some people that's a weekly thing, for others it might be you choose, for some people that's a weekly thing, for others it might be, you know, daily yoga practice or something.

Speaker 3: 30:13

I think people really surprise themselves sometimes at how hard it is Because I think you go, oh, three months, that's nothing. But actually that consistency is difficult and the reason we chose the three months is that whole research around it takes three months to form a habit. So we want people to say, well, if you're just doing it for like four weeks, I'm not saying you don't have an impact, you absolutely do have an impact. But if you want to develop that consistency and that habit which was being physically active, that's really what we're looking for that. Hopefully you continue it after the end of the award.

Speaker 3: 30:45

Then we want it to be that consistency and that's not easy. It's not easy to fit it in around like school or work or family every week consistently because of other commitments, because life changed. You know, life changed after COVID and people just they live their lives differently now and they want different things. And I get that, you know. I think we realized there are a lot of things that are important to us that we maybe hadn't given attention to that we want to do that now. Yeah, it's a hard challenge.

Speaker 2: 31:35

I mean I don't want to put anyone off, it's achievable, but it's going to push you so if anybody was out there listening to this now and they thought that sounds like something they might be interested in, because they might just be, they might be just sat at home watching tv and thinking maybe this will give me a bit of purpose or that little bit of drive. Is there any criteria they have to meet?

Speaker 3: 31:56

They've got to be aged 18 or over and they've got to be able to submit their plans and evidence in English.

Speaker 2: 32:03

And that's it.

Speaker 3: 32:03

Yeah, well, and then everything else can be worked around 100% and, like, jane and I are more than happy to have, like we offer up individual chats or we do group chats in the online thing. So like, if you're struggling, if you can't think of what to do or you can't work out how this could work with you, because obviously we've got some people on, you've got really young children. They're like, well, I'm breastfeeding, I can't leave the baby at home, but I don't want to put them in a tent overnight. I'm like that's fine, you know, let's work out what feels comfortable for you. And it's still going to be a challenge. We still want you to feel to the end of the day, you want to feel like you've achieved something. You know that you've.

Speaker 3: 32:46

It wasn't easy, but yeah, we can work that out. So it's. We've made it as accessible as possible and your English doesn't have to be perfect. Like I'm a qualified teacher of english as a second language. I'm pretty good at kind of working at what people are trying to see. So even if your english, you know, isn't brilliant, give it a go. You know, and there's at times we do get pots, funding, so we can give away some fully funded places because you know cost of living we're living in a perma crisis world, aren't we, you know?

Speaker 2: 33:09

yeah, brexit trump ukraine. I was gonna Ukraine. I was going to ask about that with the CIC. So if you could explain to people what a CIC? Well, it's Community Interest, which we are as well. But how does that work for yourselves?

Speaker 3: 33:22

Yeah, so it's about. I think there's two main issues around it. There's the physical and mental well-being. So we're saying like we're promoting, we're promoting that and obviously we know the the crisis that the nhs is in. We know that we've got obesity crisis, you know, across the world, across the world, but across the uk. So actually getting people physically moving, getting them learning new things, we that's a positive benefit to the community.

Speaker 3: 33:46

But the other thing that helped us because you have to pass that community interest company test when you submit is, I think, playing our part in people who were socially isolated. So we're trying to create that community and give people contact with other people who are doing the award, with the award coaches, because actually we know there are still some people where COVID feels really recent and still really raw and people still struggling to get back into what used to be this life where they interacted with other people. So there was a big bit for us around building community and one of the things we're planning this year is starting to do some face-to-face events and we haven't we haven't had capacity to do that. But we've just taken on three new team members I'm so excited about. Oh and no, actually four, because I've got someone who's going to be our TikTok person now. Delighted about that.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Do they want to come work for us too?

Speaker 3: 34:36

No, they can't have them.

Speaker 3: 34:38

A social media nightmare, I know Well it's just the amount of time it takes, but certainly we're going to be looking at doing well, can we do like a beach clean, somewhere that would fulfill your protect element, somewhere that would fulfill your protect element but actually give you a chance to meet up with other people and it's still outdoors. So, if that still feels a bit weird for you, meeting up with people in big groups it feels safer because that, you know, the social isolation is huge, isn't it? And that's another thing that's contributing to our, you know, mental poor health really is not. It's a crisis. I mean, god, I keep saying crisis. I feel like I've got crisis on the brain, but there's a lot going on, isn't there?

Speaker 2: 35:14

Well, I think it is. And who was I talking to yesterday Belinda Kirk, actually, if I'd bent your mind, when we were trying to organise a podcast with herself and it's like, well, we can't do here, we can't do here, we can't do there, we can't do there. Everybody that we talk to that's trying to work in an area of helping people with it is a mental health crisis, is super busy, yeah, as seb shoots daggers at me because of how busy we are with this, but it's just not enough.

Speaker 3: 35:43

Is there not enough services, not enough support? No, you know, definitely not.

Speaker 2: 35:47

And I think I don't know whether I mean I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone, but if you're not actually inquiring about it and seeing what's going on, then you're probably a little bit naive to what is going on. It's ridiculous the numbers and the you know the outcry, yeah, but the amount of people that need help and then also whatever's going wrong with the education and the health system anyway. So it's a big thing, yeah it's massive it Anyway.

Speaker 3: 36:11

So it's a big thing yeah it's massive.

Speaker 2: 36:12

It's great that there's more people coming to it, more people like yourselves trying to make a positive influence.

Speaker 3: 36:19

I mean it's funny, like talking about the education system and obviously we work with young people in Scouts, but talking to a lot of adults, and I remember seeing an Instagram post, I think, from Ben Fogle, and he was saying, like school failed him and he was led to believe that he failed school, but like we have this system, that's a one system that should fit everyone in it. Of course it doesn't, because everyone's different and of course they don't have the resources. There's nothing against teachers. They do an amazing job. The resources aren't there, the money isn't there, the numbers of teachers aren't there. So we've got people coming out of school who haven't got the education that they should have.

Speaker 3: 36:53

And then actually, what is there? What else can they do? So part of us is trying to say, well, come and do this because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where you start from, it doesn't matter if you've got GCSEs, I don't care, this is something you can do, you can learn new stuff.

Speaker 3: 37:06

And whether that's we've had people doing geology diplomas and using college, you know formal college courses, but everything I'm going to learn car mechanics, because the guy at the garage or the woman at the garages offered to teach me how to put this car together or strip the engine. That counts, do you mean? It doesn't have to be this formal stuff? It, and again it's been accessible, isn't it? And life might be failing you in some ways, like the health service might not be what you need it to be in your education might not have been what you need it to be, but there are still options open and there are still places where you can be you and you can find a community, and I'm not. I'm not saying we're all of that for everyone, but you know people like you, you're doing the outdoor stuff and that I think that's sometimes where people find out who they are and they get a chance to be themselves, you know.

Speaker 2: 37:54

Yeah, I think that's why there's been such an explosion in the outdoors as in. It's quite a simple way to achieve personal growth. Yeah, Because people haven't been going out and oh, can I do that? I dare not go for a walk because we're being cut off from nature and doing the academia which I always bang on about. But yeah, like like to say simple things like that and and just even like in pro and rolling on diplomas. So yeah, I think it's all, it's all good. If somebody wanted to enroll, where would they find you?

Speaker 3: 38:23

elementalchallengecouk or on facebook or insta, and if you just search for elemental challenge, you'd find us, and right on the front page there's a button that's like sign up.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Super simple, yeah, and what if somebody wanted to become a volunteer?

Speaker 3: 38:39

Then I'd be so happy, I'd have the biggest smile ever. Yeah, so again, you can contact us, so hello at elementalchallengecouk, or through the website or through Facebook. Yeah, always looking for people, you know, to become things like award coaches, again, delivery partners. So if people want to, so while I run an outdoors company, I run something like that you want to come on board. Or if you work with a group of people and you might want, you might think, oh, they, they would love to go through the award. I love talking to people and I love talking about Elemental because's like you know, it's my passion, my little passion project, I suppose. Yeah, I'd love to have a chat with anyone, and especially if you want to be a social media volunteer or if they're into marketing.

Speaker 3: 39:22

My god, you know, if I had a salary I'd pay you to do it but social media drives me insane do you not find, though, like you work in the outdoors, but you spend so much time trying to do your social media stuff? It drives you out of the bend.

Speaker 2: 39:33

I think do you know what the thing is with myself? I've had to start. I have to try and organise things now because I'm still learning. It's 24 years since I got diagnosed with PTSD and I'm still learning, where my brain has sort of changed. It's no accident that I did 20 years outdoors and then started working in the outdoors, so I didn't have to deal with paperwork and things, and then I start a podcast and then social media with that and then my own business and I'm like my head's gonna explode. And then I spend all my days outdoors and then I come home and I have to start doing doing admin, recording podcasts. I bet you never want to come home. Hey, I bet you never want to come home. Do you know what? Over weekend I turned both phones off. They were amazing. Well, it won't because I turned them off because I wasn't having a great time, but these are the sort of influences it has on people's lives, isn't it? This is the thing.

Speaker 3: 40:16

I think it's just constant, isn't it? There's the constant barrage of I don't know how young people. Honestly, I couldn't have coped being a young person now with social media. That constant barrage of you should be this. You shouldn't be that. You should be better at this. You should look like this. I just my god, I can't imagine what that's doing to our mental well-being. It's just.

Speaker 2: 40:39

I find it quite terrifying yes, but let's leave it on a good point, as we start to wrap up and that, I'll go to say thank you for joining us and what I do I do. A couple years ago actually, I was thinking of running a sort of like a DV thing for a parent and child. You know what I mean parent and young person. But it's a lot of work, it is.

Speaker 3: 41:01

Well, interestingly, we've got a school who run DV and they've been in touch because they want to start running elemental for the parents so that they can do it alongside the kids. So I'm like, yes, amazing, like absolutely amazing.

Speaker 2: 41:15

But you're right, it's hard work yeah, I mean like, like I said, I never got the opportunity. I think if I'd have had the opportunity when I was back at school then I might in my whole life might have been different, you know. I mean because I'd been. I discovered my sort of passion for outdoors by either playing out or being thrown out of the normal classroom into gardening club, which I found were amazing.

Speaker 3: 41:37

Oh, it's a game changer, I think, and that's where you know why for me, it fits really well with Scouts, you know, getting kids outdoors and giving them life skills. Why wouldn't we want to do that more?

Speaker 2: 41:48

You know Brilliant. Have you got anything to add, Seb?

Speaker 1: 41:50

Oh yeah, yeah, there's been um one question on my mind since we uh started the podcast. What is your answer to the there is a goat in my campsite question?

Speaker 3: 42:00

oh, you mentioned that earlier well, thankfully it wasn't in the geographical patch that I cover, so I gave it to my colleague up in. Northales delegated I mean, I'm sure the answer must be just like better fencing or something. I mean, they're pretty good at jumping, aren't they? But I don't know or just let it in let it in and use it to like actually I have. I do have some goat knowledge that if you want your your lawn trimmed.

Speaker 3: 42:27

Goats are not the answer, it's sheep don't ask how I know that, but um right, I'm sure there's a use for the goat somewhere right on that note, unless you have anything to add, helen no, it's been brilliant.

Speaker 2: 42:39

Thank you ever so much for having us let you get off, because I know you've got another appointment after this, so brilliant.

Speaker 4: 42:44

Thanks for joining us we will.

Speaker 2: 42:46

Thank you. We will put the details in the podcast. Information and brilliant will go out soon. Okay, take care. Thanks for joining us, you too. Bye.

Speaker 4: 42:55

Bye-bye. So I'd like to say a big thank you to our sponsor, who are Energy Impact, and also our supporters, product Agency up there in Newcastle, who are supplying our designs, et cetera, and Common Sense Clothing, who supply us with our very, very nice, nice apparel. And if you'd like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to buy us a coffee, or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalkingcom and look for the little cup. Thank you, thank you.