E50: Facing the Darkness - Mark’s Path from Chaos to Clarity

When Mark Charlie-Valentine decided to follow Leeds United to Istanbul in 2000, he couldn't have imagined the violent nightmare that awaited him. Join us as Mark courageously shares his harrowing ordeal in detail, recounting the build-up to the tragic night when he witnessed his friends being brutally attacked by a mob. His vivid storytelling brings to life the chaos and fear he experienced, as well as the heartbreaking moments that followed, including the tragic loss of two friends. These raw, emotional recollections set the stage for an open discussion on PTSD and the long-term impact of such traumatic events.

In this moving episode, Mark delves deeper into the immediate aftermath of the attack, describing the desperate attempts to save his friends and the confusion and anger he felt towards the authorities. His interactions with the Turkish police add another layer of complexity to his story, revealing moments of unexpected kindness amid the turmoil. Mark also reflects on the challenges he faced upon returning home, struggling with severe depression and the stigmatization of mental health issues. Through his candid reflections, listeners gain a powerful insight into the resilience required to cope with PTSD and the ongoing journey towards healing.

We also explore Mark's path to recovery, highlighting the therapeutic role of outdoor adventures and the transformative power of self-improvement. From mountain leadership to adopting a non-processed food diet, Mark's journey showcases the importance of finding new passions and the impact of personal relationships in overcoming adversity. This episode is a testament to the human spirit's strength and the critical need to discuss mental health openly, offering hope and inspiration to anyone grappling with their own struggles.

The White Fox - Film

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Sebastian Budniak, and in the studio with me today is Mark Charlie-Valentine. Hello, seb, how are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you? I'm nervous. Why are you nervous?

Speaker 2: 0:12

Well, you're doing the introduction and I'm sat on the other side.

Speaker 1: 0:16

Other side of the fence, other side of the fence.

Speaker 2: 0:18

Yeah, it's me getting the receiving, do you?

Speaker 1: 0:20

know why I did the introduction Go on.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Well, I've got a clue, but you best tell the listeners we couldn't find a guess.

Speaker 1: 0:27

So we thought we'll get the next best on Next best. That's helpful.

Speaker 2: 0:31

That's an improvement for me, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 0:33

We'll get the next best person on, and the only person in the studio was Charlie.

Speaker 2: 0:38

Yeah, I mean to be fair. We've had a few questions, people asking questions, as in, listeners actually, that have asked questions, which is nice of me talking about going through ptsd but not them not knowing, and I know we've posted the film recently, but it would just start to be an idea yeah, and I guess we haven't really discussed your story of why you're here, why you're doing this, why we're here and why we are here.

Speaker 1: 0:59

You know what has happened to brought you to this to this stage, to this stage, to this point. To this point? Yeah, Do you think? Yeah, and what has caused the PTSD? Yeah, and maybe. How did you find out you had PTSD? And all that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 1:12

I think it. Yeah, I think it was nailed on.

Speaker 1: 1:14

But how are you?

Speaker 2: 1:15

before we get into it.

Speaker 1: 1:16

I'm alright, I've got a bit of the syphils.

Speaker 2: 1:19

Yeah, I think, else going round. It's good, we're all building up as a unit. Rant alert, rant alert. So welcome Charlie. Hello, thank you, very honoured to be asked. How are you? I'm alright, mate, we've done that. How do you want to start this Right? Why don't you tell us about the incident? Yeah, so back in 2000 I was following Leeds, leeds United, back when they were great. You were a hardcore fan, don't you? Reasonably? Yeah, I used to go everywhere and it was just.

Speaker 1: 1:52

You know it wasn't them.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I think we've got to separate hardcore from some of the images of, especially with this incident. Some of the implications are what people think about football and guys going to football. I used to go to matches all over the country and then all over Europe.

Speaker 1: 2:08

What Leeds played in Europe.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yeah, it seems a long time ago, and it wasn't even a pre-season friendly. This was the semi-finals of the European Cup, or UEFA, wasn't it? Uefa? It must have been the European Cup, I can't remember.

Speaker 2: 2:23

So, yeah, and we'd gone to Istanbul. So they're playing Galatasaray. We had a reputation fair enough, but Leeds were a good team at the time, would be to all the other games leading up to that and it'd been quite eventful actually leading up to that because we'd gone to. I think we went to Holland, got away, I got bed bugs, and where did we go? Then, I think we went to. Did we go to Rome? I can't remember where we went.

Speaker 1: 2:46

It's a bit of a Europe trip.

Speaker 2: 2:48

Yeah, well, I know we went to Russia twice in three weeks and the second time we went it was minus 28,. So it got called off. You're like, how much luck, how much poor luck can we have? And then, obviously, we go to Turkey and this happened. So what's happened? Yeah, basically we were out drinking in Istanbul. We'd got there I think they were a decent group because it was a private trip in this hotel and then went round Istanbul and a few drinks. You know, quite surprised at how warm and friendly it was by expecting this welcome tale, and there was nothing of that. Was that still before the actual? This was a day before, yeah, this was a day before we got there. So we were just out in Istanbul and then we'd been to a couple of bars and there were a few young Turkish guys following us round, but nothing you know, no inkling of any violence or anything.

Speaker 2: 3:36

And then I mean to cut a long story short we were in a bar on Taksim Square and I think Chelsea were playing, funnily enough, that night. Yeah, so going back to the hotel to watch that. So I left with a couple of others. As I went with, people were drifting off. You know, it was dark and it's like do we want to be hanging around? So, headed home. Oh, we're heading home. And we walked across Taksim Square, jumped in a taxi.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Now, as we got into a taxi, a taxi pulled away and I remember being sat on the left-hand side and looking out the window just seeing all these really bright lights and a big mob of people.

Speaker 2: 4:10

They were like what's going on there and then realised that they were attacking the bar where we'd left as friends and for some unknown reason even to this day, I got out of the car, jumped back and I just knew someone just told me it was too bad. Somebody said to me, one of the guys that were in the car said get back in. And I went no, it's too bad. I'll always remember that. And then I jumped out and my mate was with me and he ran back as well, and we were running towards the bar and you could see the little people on the floor and things. You could see these bright lights outside of me still and it turns out that On the floor and things I could see these bright lights outside of me still, and it turns out that On the floor things because they got battered yeah, well, stabbed, to be fair, stabbed Before.

Speaker 2: 4:51

I couldn't see that from there, but when we were running down towards Kettham I remember running down outside of these lights it was a camera crew. It turned out it was CNN and it was live on TV. So some of my friends were in the hotel and they watched it. Now, without going down a rabbit hole too early, there's a lot sort of in this as in was it a set up, which I firmly believe it was by, possibly by CNN, but we've got to find that out. So we're running it out and I'll always remember a small guy coming out of the like a kebab shop and he looked a bit like Super Mario but in a white apron and he tried to stick this kebab skewer through me and I'm thinking that is not one of them kebab skewers that uncle, uncle knobhead uses on the barbecue back in england. You know, it's like a big square thing they have the cheese kebabs on.

Speaker 2: 5:38

That's the one, yeah and I did like a I don't know it's one of them things.

Speaker 2: 5:41

Honestly, when I go back and think about it, I'm like how did I get away with that? Not get away with it, but I was not killed and I did, like a Mr Soft, you know, bent round it. So I'd bent round it. And then the next thing, there's a guy at side of me with this big iron bar. It looked like a piece of scaffolding pole, maybe about three foot long, and he looked at me and he sort of lifted it up as though he was going to swing, and this arm came across me and hit him in the side of the jaw and knocked him down and it turned out with my arm. It was one of them things that I know it were an instinctive thing. I was Thai boxing at the time, yeah, so I've got to thank.

Speaker 2: 6:17

You were also working the doors, weren't you? No, that, yeah, I know, I didn't work the doors until I couldn't get work after this incident. So, yeah, I've got to thank mike tobin up at tobin's gym in armley for all the many. I think I was sideboxing for about nine years. But you know, it makes makes sense that when you stood in a gym doing the drills, yeah, and you're thinking this is, this is crap. I'm just, I've paid money for this and you just stood there doing 10 different drills 10 different times or 20 different times, but then an incident like that happens and it just, you know, you don't have to think about it anyway, because I think you know whether it killed me or what, I don't know anyway. So hit that guy and then I can see people on the floor. This is where I can see people severely, really badly injured.

Speaker 1: 6:56

And these were random people. Do you know what I know?

Speaker 2: 6:59

the go and it goes on and it was said in the newspapers and stuff attacked by Galatasaray fans. Now, I didn't see any football colours at all. These were just random people Well, maybe not random people, because we're all in a group together, but I didn't see any football colours. I couldn't see it. It was football instigated Hand on my hat. Now, I'll always remember, without jumping on too much, I went to counselling, which we'll talk about, but during the counselling I'm already describing this in a lot more depth than Alison said to me because there was a guy in front of me with a chair above his head about to hit someone and at the back end of the counselling she went what was he wearing? And I went yellow shirt, bleached jeans, and without jumping forward, I could remember that that was something that had been trapped in my mind. But yellow shirt, bleached jeans, you know, does it sound like? Doesn't sound like football colours?

Speaker 1: 7:45

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 7:46

So no football colours, anyway. So there was a guy in front of me, so he's gone. And then I get to somebody on the ground which it turned out was Chris. There were four brothers on the trip and Chris was one of them and he was severely injured. I've never seen anything like it, to be fair, and I stopped and went into a bit of an autopilot, you know, trying to do first aid, but you know it was. It turned out fruitless, but I carried on trying.

Speaker 2: 8:14

I didn't know at the time that my mate Darren was stood over actually watching me do this first aid as people were trying to attack him. So I remember doing the first aid or trying, and at that time putting breaths in and then going to listen to see if they were breathing. And I remember putting some breaths into him and then put my head down to listen. And I don't know if it was the same guy that I'd hit earlier on with the iron bar, but he stood above me with his iron bar. Whether he'd been selling iron bars I don't know, but he's swinging it down and I move forward and instead of hitting me over the back of the head, it hit me across my shoulder and down to my right hip.

Speaker 2: 8:55

It's weird, isn't it? Because now I've just said that and it could actually feel tingling in that place. It's bonkers. So he hit me and then he ran off and I carried on doing, trying to do first aid again, and then you'll love this bit. This was all live on CNN and it was live, and I mean this was all on. It was available on YouTube up till a few years ago and three or four. There's two different types of Turkish police officers the proper ones with the guns that look like, you know, like the Guardia Civil or something like that, like in Spain, yeah, like a proper police force.

Speaker 2: 9:29

And then there's the other one, the ones that just uniforms don't fit, and you know what I mean. They're stood in corners, all buttons, all different and ties hanging around, and three or four of them stood around me and started beating me with truncheons while I was doing first aid. What?

Speaker 1: 9:42

they were beating you while you were performing first aid on someone who was severely injured, potentially dying yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:50

And that was all on CNN, it was all live. So I mean it was all on the news everywhere. Everybody saw it, even my daughter saw it. She was only four at the time Because I remember asking when I got back. When I got back, that's when it really hit me, because she said what we're all about? Tomato sauce, red sauce, down your arms, daddy. I'm like, oh good, god, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:07

So we then got Chris into a police car. I carried on trying to do first aid and there were policemen in the back and he's sort of shaking his head, but I didn't want to give up you know what I mean and I could still see something in his eyes, or looking at his eyes, which always I'll take that to my grave that look. And then we get to the hospital and they took him out, put him on a stretcher and whirled him away. But that's the last I saw of him, really. And then obviously, they've checked him out and found that he was. They've took him and found he was dead, that he died, but I think it was nine stab wounds he had.

Speaker 2: 10:39

Nine chest and abdomen. So never really. So that was the gist of it to start with. Yeah, yeah. So I mean that's all that. I mean let's talk about it now it's. You know, when I did the counseling, without jumping on too much, I had to write down. It went into pages and pages, fine details so. But I don't want to go into the fine detail no, no, I could see.

Speaker 1: 11:00

You know it always it seems to somehow hit you still. Well, it's there, it's a memory.

Speaker 2: 11:05

And it's like I just said then it was weird how I could sort of feel that in my back. When I said that about my back, I flinched. I went forward. Do you know what I mean About the iron batting me?

Speaker 1: 11:15

Not that it matters, but I guess you guys just went. I mean, what did you do? You never went to the game, did you?

Speaker 2: 11:20

yeah, well, we were in the hospital afterwards. We were in the hospital and I was actually getting cleaned up when Andy came in. Now Andy was Chris's brother and he was asking how Chris was and where Chris was and I couldn't face him. I was washing his brother's blood off my arms you know what I mean. And then we found out Chris had died and there was another guy there, kev, and he'd come in and he'd been stabbed through. He'd been stabbed under the ribs, into the right through his liver, so he had one stab wound, I believe, and he was sat on a trolley and I spoke to him and he went I don't feel good. I went, you'll be all right, they're going to look after you now. And he went in and died. He died of his injuries as well.

Speaker 1: 11:57

So there's two people that you knew.

Speaker 2: 11:59

Yeah, and it's one of these where we travelled and we all sort of knew each other.

Speaker 1: 12:04

You know what I mean yeah, like lads out, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:08

I mean, it's a group, but we all sort of you all sort of knew people, even if they hadn't gone on every trip, they'd gone to some of the others and people wanted to go on this because we thought are you going to get to a final? You know, I've been to this game, I've been to that game.

Speaker 1: 12:21

How did it make you feel at the time? I guess you were kind of in a state of shock, aren't you Like on a night? I bet you didn't sleep. Did you get really angry?

Speaker 2: 12:29

No, well, I did. I got angry. The police came in and Peter Ridsdale came in, who was the chairman at Leeds at the time, saying we'll pay for this, we'll pay for that. The press were all over it outside trying to get photographs of us and then the police came and arrested us all. Everyone that was in the accident emergency area arrested us, took us to a central Galatasaray police station and there was about I think there was about 20 people in this cell and I'm there with someone else's blood down me covered in it, blood running out the back of my head from where they'd hit me, where the police had hit me. And then I was the first one to take out for interview.

Speaker 2: 13:07

And this is where it gets a bit sus as well. It's only in recent years that I've started thinking there's something more to this, but I want to talk about this from the mental health side of it. And they took me out, put me in a room and there was a big room with a table down on it. There was somebody from the british embassy I believe they're doing the interpreters interpreting. There was a guy writing down what happened. You know what was said and he says we need just need you to do a statement.

Speaker 2: 13:30

And there was like four or five other police officers and sat there, turkish police officers and he said right, what's happened? So told him, so started going on, told him and the guy's writing it all down and you know it's a little typewriter click, click, click, click, click, click. And I said, and then I started, I would give him first aid. And then some police officers stood around me. They hit me with truncheons this is why I've got blood and they just went, someone said something and they all stopped, stood up, left me, walked out of the room and then the guy, the British guy from the embassy, came in and he gave me a piece of A with about four sentences in Turkish typed onto it and it says sign that. What does it say? It says the Turkish police took no action against you and if you don't sign it, you'll go to jail now and you'll be in a Turkish jail for at least a year and the British government will not help you.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Like absolutely threatened you.

Speaker 2: 14:24

Just talk, well. It says basically they'll put you in jail and we won't help you. Like absolutely threatened you. Just talk, well. It says basically they'll put you in jail and we won't help you. It says you'll have to appeal to get out and the British government won't help you.

Speaker 1: 14:32

That doesn't. I can totally believe what you're saying here, but it doesn't make sense to me because if it was live on CNN? And everyone could see what was happening. Why couldn't you?

Speaker 2: 14:42

give that statement, exactly, exactly. And I mean it's weird that it's all been taken down, like my daughter's doing English literature and she wants to write a book about it and she tried looking at it. She told me a few months ago she said she'd tried researching loads of it. It's all disappeared. So such a big situation at the time. It's like my head was in absolute pieces. Anyway, I was in absolute pieces anyway, I signed it and I just thought all I could think about was Midnight Express. You know what I mean? I've got two kids. I had a four year old and a two year old. So it was like right, and they just put me on the streets, opened the police station door and out I went and then, funnily enough, the first person I'd come up with was a Turkish police officer with a machine gun, all in the combat gear sort of stuff, and you were still covered in blood. I had blood, there was blood pouring out back of my head and he'd come up with long hair at times.

Speaker 1: 15:31

A bit like me.

Speaker 2: 15:34

No, like my old silly Charlie Nicholas, look from the 80s, but it was falling out on top Just looking a bit threadbare, Died red as well, Threadbare, yeah, and he came up to me, funnily enough, and you're thinking you know what's going to go on here now, and he came up to me. I'll never forget it. It does annoy me sometimes when I know people get annoyed about me saying this, but it annoys me sometimes when people go on. You know, people from Leeds go on about Turkish.

Speaker 2: 15:59

Because this guy came up to tea, you know, like tea, tea, and he took me to a cafe for a cup of tea. He couldn't speak English, I couldn't speak Turkish, and while we were there, a reporter came up, John Shires, I think he was from Lucknorth, wasn't he? And he asked for an interview and I said no, mate, I don't know what's going on. I really don't know what's going on. He says well, do you want to use my phone so you can ring your family, which I did. And then I just sat with a Turkish police officer drinking, you know, doing the tea with loads of sugar. We weren't really talking, we were just. I think he would try to sort of apologise, I think you know.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Or he was actually a human being who could see your emotions and that you went through something. Maybe he didn't even know what was happening.

Speaker 2: 16:47

Yeah, you know what I think? Even at that time I was just. You know, when you say people in shock, you're just like what's happened, what's going on? It's like stepping into another reality. And then people started coming out of their cells and we went back to the hotel, got a taxi back to the hotel. So that's a major part of the incident. The journey back must have been absolutely horrific for all of you. Well, we went to the game. What they did? Well, they came to the police, they came to the hotel the next day and in fact this is quite important, but remind me about it because I won't forget John Shires came to the hotel and I gave him an interview only because he'd lent me his phone. That was it. But then that sort of played out later on that some people believed that I'd done that for money and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 17:30

Yeah, so this comes in a bit later on, with all the man up and people taking piss because they didn't understand what was going on. They came for us, took us in a police van, took us up to the police station. We had to do an ID parade and, yeah, I don't know how many went. Actually, it's all a bit hazy. I don't think I slept that night. In fact, I think I just drank most of it and then we did, but I think we all identified the same person that we'd seen there, you know, I mean.

Speaker 2: 17:58

So it was one of them where I can remember last night we just all went in such a blurb and then it was like, yeah, I know him, I know him. So yeah, and then we went to the game. They Threw us out of the police station, met us walks again, threw us out Like what, what? How are we going to get there? And it was, you know, horrendous. So went to the game and then came home and then, to be fair, that's, I mean, the incident rolled out and, yes, there are people to blame, people at fault for a violent, horrible incident that should never happen.

Speaker 1: 18:31

But then, for myself, I think, with the mental health, the mental health developed after that, yeah, I guess you wouldn't have instant kind of mental effects from it, apart from the shock, not the ones that you noticed.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Yeah, I think I did. I can't remember someone saying it. I overheard my friend saying he's traumatised, which, yeah shock, but it was just drinking. You know what I mean, and it was the reporters wanting to speak to you and things like that, which I only spoke to two people and people banging on my door all night, things like that.

Speaker 1: 19:02

When you were back.

Speaker 2: 19:03

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, basically I just got drunk, I just went out and got steaming, and then flashbacks, nightmares, couldn't sleep, Couldn't sleep, couldn't sleep, didn't sleep for days. But then again I avoided sleep as well, because when I was asleep, or having like night traumas or whatever they call them you know nightmares and yeah, horrendous I'd have to be absolutely exhausted or blind drunk to go to sleep. And then I went to. So we're getting a bad state because obviously I had two kids me. My daughters lived over at the coast so I had to drive to see them, which I wanted to do, but then if I were drunk all the time, I couldn't, you couldn't drive yeah so I mean this, we're talking about a couple of weeks actually.

Speaker 2: 19:42

I went back to work a week later. I went back to work a week later and somebody said something to me which was totally inappropriate and it related about football and football hooligans and stuff like that, and I just I snapped proper, went for him so left work, left work voluntary, or I walked out.

Speaker 2: 20:01

I walked out and what I did? I spoke to my supervisor at the time, who was a good lad, and he says go, you know, get yourself to the doctors. And when I went to the doctors she said she'd been waiting for me to go. She says I've seen everything. She says I can't believe you haven't been here this long. And she prescribed me oh, what are the sleeping tablets? The big ones, the decent ones, tramadol? Can't remember, can't remember, can't remember. Anyway, she gave me like two weeks worth and and you did them all in one night.

Speaker 2: 20:31

Well, some of them I did, yeah, because I just thought do you know what? I took some of them and I've never mentioned this before. I took some of them and I thought, if I wake up, I'll wake up, if I don't, I counselling. So I had to go and do an interview with them and I always remember it because there were four doctors and a counsellor, alison, and they're like right, what's happening? And I told them they went, alright, okay, so they knew all about it, all of it news, we'd had the funerals and it'd all been national news, shit headlines, you know, like in the sun, and all them rags, you know, describing it as football. They were against fighting.

Speaker 2: 21:07

It's two British people that have been stabbed to death leaving a bar, basically, yeah, and some friends out on holiday, yeah, well, so, but obviously it's football related. So they want to sell papers. And they said to me I can't remember how long ago, how long after the incident, but I remember them saying to me you know, we talked about the incident. I went yeah, yeah, I'm alright, this is what happened. Well, I went to a football game and some people died, and then I've come back and it's not been right. Good, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:32

I'm alright, bit like blasé about the whole thing. Yeah, you're just thinking, yeah, I'm alright.

Speaker 2: 21:37

It's like you didn't want to talk about it. So this was like 2000, so I think we'd had. We were in the second Iraq war, so people were starting to hear of PTSD but I'd never heard of that. It would all man up and sort yourself out and get a grip of yourself and stop putting it on. And that's what I was getting at the time because I was just on the piss all the time. But they said to me.

Speaker 1: 21:58

Sorry, can I just rewind this? So when you were out on the piss alcohol does sometimes play with your emotions quite hard Did you ever feel like you just had to cry or let?

Speaker 2: 22:06

go, I'd just snap. If someone said something, I'd just snap and probably leave.

Speaker 1: 22:11

So you'd snap, maybe throw a punch, or two?

Speaker 2: 22:13

No, no, it wasn't violent, I'd just leave, I'd just leave. Do you know what? Even back then, I'd just walk, I'd just go walk. But I used to walk miles, you know what I mean? Because you couldn't drive, because you the drunkard, yeah, exactly, don't drink and drive, folks definitely. But yeah, I remember one of the doctors saying to me and it's funny now, but it's not because I've mentioned this before and he's gonna do you drink. And I went, yeah, and he went, how much do you drink? I went probably about 10 pints. And he went, okay, right, and I went, but more on a friday and a saturday, anyway, he went what 10 pints a day? I went, oh, yeah, I think we shit.

Speaker 2: 22:48

So they invited me in to go for weekly counselling and, yeah, it started off. So it was going to last for six months and they're supposed to be on medication. But the medication just didn't work for me. It were antidepressants and I actually felt worse on them than I did when I wasn't on them, because I couldn't function. I couldn't function, I couldn't sort of thought. I was just like at least some mornings I could get up and do something, whereas on the antidepressants I just didn't want to, I just wanted to lay in bed.

Speaker 1: 23:18

They're very similar to beta blocks, don't they? They just block all your feelings. Yeah, my mum was on them for a while.

Speaker 2: 23:25

It was like walking around with a wet duvet on me not that I know what a wet duvet is like if you see anyone taking these really strong antidepressants or they just seem so vacant.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Yeah, you just but I wanted to do so. I did want to go see my kids and stuff like that. They were my main thing. I think if I hadn't been for kids then I think I'd have probably chucked myself off a flamborade or something, because that's where I used to go off course with them. Then it developed into my doctor wouldn't sign me off. I did the counselling for six months and it started off with yeah, I used to go every week but people used to rip the piss out of me for going to counselling. You know what I mean Sort you set out, get a grip.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Again all that, Not the same friends that went with you to.

Speaker 2: 24:12

No, no, funnily enough, no, funnily enough. But similar crowds, similar crowds. You know this very male sort of football-orientated people. Yeah, and I never even thought about it at the time, but I suppose it was fucking bullying, you know what I mean, even though I didn't realise I'd just laugh.

Speaker 2: 24:26

Really, there were a couple of incidents where I would get annoyed, I mean some proper handy guys, but it never went to fisticuffs, but I wouldn't, I didn't care at the time I would have run through a brick wall if I'd have wanted to. You know what I mean. It was that sort of mentality. And then I mean it went on and I went to the counselling for the six months and at the end of the six months I said to Alison and it turned out that we were sat back to back and this is where that incident, this clip where she says to me what was that guy wearing? And as soon as I said bleached jeans, yellow shirt, I mean I just burst into tears. And with this I think that's when we're doing all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Now for the podcast you sort of think about. You know, keep saying to this thing about your mind processing memories so you can get them out. And then you know this entry, entry and outtry, and things are coming in the entry. The trauma came in the entry. The traumatic incident, the ptsd is what happens afterwards and it's running around in your brain and it needs to be processed or handled. You know, I mean, and that were like bloody hell and I remember at the end of it and I turned around to alison and I said I've got to thank you, know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 25:27

And that were like bloody hell. And I remember at the end of it I turned around to Alison and I said I've got to thank you for what you've done for me, and she turned around. What you've done for me. And she turned around and she went. When you came in, we gave you 29 out of 30 for depression, 30 out of 30 for PTSD.

Speaker 2: 25:39

I thought you'd be dead in a month and I just went I says well doors, and she went good luck, good luck in your future. And that was it. You know, I mean. But then it's weird because when I look back now, yeah, I moved so far with it, with it to counseling, but then it's like right now you're out into work, and now you're out and it's, I mean, it's still like I say, there's still triggers. Now I went out with a night and I can't, I hate having me back to a door because it's like what's happening behind me? Yeah, things like that. So that was what was the, the sort of incident and the immediate aftermath, I suppose, from immediate, that was like within a year, wasn't it?

Speaker 2: 26:11

Yeah, that was within about six months to a year.

Speaker 1: 26:14

And then you kind of go into the medium to long-term kind of period. Yeah well, which was fairly long, wasn't it? I mean, I met you in 2008 and it still affected you. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:27

I mean I was still doing Thai boxing. I was still doing. I started getting into some of the adventure stuff. I went to Bali, I did a lot of bushcraft and survival courses, which just to get me out of pub but I found that I loved them, you know what I mean, and I just had a totally different way of thinking and it cleared my mind and all I thought about was them. You know, I went with my mate, john, who was an instructor, up to Scotland and we're on, I think we were out in October on Isle of Mull and thinking what the what am I doing here?

Speaker 2: 26:57

no food, being a scout, yeah, hey, being a scout, a bit more serious than that. He only let me take me a knife and my toothbrush. He says, yeah, when there's no, there's no reason for bad dental hygiene, but trying to hunt us food and you know, still let me. At that time, yeah, I was still doing all that, but there were implications because I wasn't working and it started where I lost my house, the job, the work, where the work, when I was there, wanted rid of me because I think they wanted to take someone on and there were no sign of when I could go back, because it was engineering, print engineering, looking after like millions of pounds worth of machines and I were on these tablets or medication. So, and it said, you know, she said I can't do it while you're on them, can't remember what they were. So, yeah, so the job went and I took it. To be fair, I was just like, yeah, I just sort of wanted to cut ties.

Speaker 2: 27:49

But then I came back from Belize and I was fit as a butcher's dog, honestly, and I remember going down to training, going to Tobin's training, and he says you fit out here? I went, yeah. He said, do you want to fight? I went, yeah, I went this one on Tuesday, he says when he went Sunday and I fought on Sunday and tore my cartilage in my knee yeah, tore my cartilage in my knee, which I didn't know about until I'd won't fight, like on that adrenaline, and then I just couldn't run. I couldn't run, I couldn't train, couldn't do anything, and that's. I've only realised this in the last couple of you know only recently that I thought, bloody hell, yeah, that's when the drinking really started then, because I'd been released from the other one and thought, right, I need to get some work. And when you go for a job interview, so we're going to printing companies for engineering, because when you go for a job interview and you've got, it's now 2002, you've got two years blank on your CV.

Speaker 2: 28:41

What you've been doing, been suffering with PTSD? Okay, polite conversation. Then right, we'll be in touch. Never hear a thing. Cv, what have you been doing? Been suffering with PTSD? Oh, okay, yeah, polite conversation. Then right, we'll be in touch. Never hear a thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, so that's a big effect. That's when I lost the house. The house got taken. Well, I managed to sell the house, but for a very discounted price because it was six months in arrears and stuff like that, and they were like bullshit. So it's all this cycle, it from that incident, from that incident, and then everything went downhill.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Yeah, I think this is why you know a lot of what we're trying to do now is people are in that ever descending spiral because you can't get out of it, because there's one, one action follows, another follows, another follows another. I couldn't go to work, they won't let me go to work. My doctor's like no, there's no way you can go to work in a crowded room you know what I mean in an area where there's other people that are noises and bangs, and then obviously machinery. So you can't go. All right, okay, what do I do? And then government won't pay you. So I'd have my six months off, the six months government pay. And then it's like, right, no, you can't. I had to go see one of their. I had to go see a government doctor for an assessment and it's like just discounted any mental health at all.

Speaker 2: 29:45

Can you stand up?

Speaker 2: 29:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:46

Can you sit down?

Speaker 2: 29:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Can you write your name?

Speaker 2: 29:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:48

Can you do this?

Speaker 2: 29:49

Yeah, now you're fit to work, but you obviously weren't. Well, I think it's one of them where I suppose it's the work that you find in it. But I mean the work that I did find was door work and it's only in recent years or recent times, through doing the podcast and doing research, that people have had PTSD or people with PTSD are attracted to them sort of jobs where it might you might be on edge all night. Do you know what I mean? I can give you two book names. Actually I'll look for them now because we can, we can drop them in later. I got offered a job working doors and the guys I used to train with them down at Bermont office and they says do you want to come and work doors with us? Because not so much about the fighting, but you know where to talk to people, because I mean, I was still only 73, 74 kilos at the time. It wasn't a fighting job. It's being polite and talking and treating people like customers, like we have done, not have done at all time.

Speaker 1: 30:40

You and polite yeah, in the same sentence. Don't be like that.

Speaker 2: 30:44

Don't be like that and I think what it actually was was the guys knew how much time I was spending in the bar just drinking, so if I was stood on the door I went drinking. That was the thing. But then that gets into a cycle of working nights. All the time working in the industry, so you start as we discussed with plenty of our guests.

Speaker 2: 31:03

Yeah, he started having a couple of shots after work. One of the worst things I ever did was started playing championship manager. Would you believe I'd miss a night's sleep easily because I was playing championship manager? Yes, two book drops in an unspoken voice by Peter A Levine, and that's about how the body stores trauma and it has to be released. Quite good and quite fascinating. We say a lot of people have got trauma and it has to be released quite, quite good and quite fascinating. It's not. We're looking. We should say our people got ptsd and it's a mental thing, but it's. It's also stored in the body. There's lots of evidence of that. Or it's stored, you know, the signals are still there. Like I say, just then, when we mentioned that steel bar on my back, I flinched straight away, it's like. And the other one was what was the one? Ah, this was the one that set me you mentioned one before. To me, the Body Keeps the Score. The Body.

Speaker 2: 31:47

Keeps the Score that one mate, that's the Body, Keeps the Score by Basil van der Kolk, it's on my, I've got it.

Speaker 1: 31:53

Actually it's hard going, but it's my next list.

Speaker 2: 31:57

It's hard going, but it told me I would. I mean I wouldn't recommend it for anyone with PTSD or going through. I'd say if you're ready for it, then yeah, because it was a big wake-up, big realisation, because a lot of that book was saying it was telling me what I'd gone through is normal. You know where society's telling me that I'm abnormal and even friends that are telling you you're not normal, sort this out. And you can't sort it out because you're stuck in this. It's like a negative cycle in it you know, is it a negative feed cycle?

Speaker 2: 32:28

we call it something like that and you're just going around and around and one thing leads to another. So we've got the PTSD, we've got results from that, we've got the trauma. From that, we've got the sort of the depression, which is another different subject altogether and you've got life as well affecting you losing the house losing the house, having to pay bills probably the relationship with your children, obviously because you couldn't see them that much.

Speaker 2: 32:53

I did still see them. I saw them every week. They lived away. But I do think back now and think how much has this affected them? Because at that age, 2 and 4, they're still forming their. They didn't live with me at the time. Anyway, it was a bloody good job really, as it turned out. But you're thinking, I mean we have a great relationship with both my kids because they weren't my best friends during that time, because all they did was speak the truth, whereas people around me.

Speaker 1: 33:18

Well, it's very black and white for kids, isn't it? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 33:20

yeah. So yeah, I mean, they were. They were I think. I don't think I'd have been anywhere without them. So when everything's falling at bits, you know I could talk to my kids. I'll go see them, We'd go, it's. You know. It was one of them. I remember one of the best moments of my life was going to Rockpools and getting a crab in Crab. Well, I got a crab out, didn't I? And it got? Is it Velvet and Hermit or something like that outshore crab? And one of them can reach all the way around, and it reached all the way around. It had my finger in its clamp. Honestly, my daughters were just rolling around on the sand and I'm screaming, but if I'd have had money and a job, then that probably wouldn't have been. We would have never done that. So it did make them moments as well.

Speaker 1: 34:00

You kind of found your feet by working again long nights.

Speaker 2: 34:05

Again, this is all a realisation that's come to me through all this audiobook and reading that I've been doing. So what I was doing basically the door work, the long nights being in that world, knowing loads of people and all, and then what I'd do is be going out clubbing as well then, and it was just a pure escapism. My sleep never improved because I was then going home at 6 in the morning, 7 in the morning. I mean, look at some nights we were working, finish at 9 o'clock on a Sunday morning. Like what am I doing? We were doing that six, seven nights a week. Well, on a weekend, you know 5 and 6 through week, and then 9 o'clock, what nothing good nothing beneficial, and then you probably still joined an after party then an after party.

Speaker 2: 34:46

Well, I used to work.

Speaker 1: 34:47

I once did a 36 hour shift do you know what I mean, and then still went to an after party and then still went.

Speaker 2: 34:51

No, yeah, I think no. I went home. I went home and had a couple of cans, but I just got into that routine of having. I had to have a beer or two, or three or four every time I finished work. So I'd be taking beers home from work and then replacing them or buying them back. You know what I mean. But there again, if I'd have had beers to drink, what would I have done? Where would my mind have been? And I'm not defending alcohol, because some people do have issues and I totally respect that.

Speaker 2: 35:15

I went to a lecture last night, actually, and they were saying how it's the most dangerous drug that we have by far and it's legal, it's taxable. That's why I'll admit I've never said it before to anyone, not even my kids, really that I've been there and I've been on that edge where I've thought I don't need this, I don't need this, I just need a way out. And I was seriously considering taking the ultimate way out. But then I'd think right, I thought about getting a tattoo for six months. I I'll tell you what I'm going to have a can. I'm going to have a sleeping tablet, and I'll see how I feel about it tomorrow, and that's what I've done. And then got up tomorrow and thought oh no, I'm all right, you know what I mean. Plus, I wanted to see what happened to my game. I'm the championship manager.

Speaker 1: 35:58

you know, I mean it takes a certain person to admit something. Well, is that the point when you started realizing you had some sort of problem? Or I mean, you already knew that you've been diagnosed with ptsd, and you've been diagnosed with ptsd and depression, and I never really accepted it?

Speaker 2: 36:14

no, I knew, I knew I'd been diagnosed and you had had counseling. I told a few people about the counseling but found that I got got me, you know, just got ripped, got ridiculed for it, and then it were all just covered up by the working. And then it got to about 2007. And I always remember it, I went to the bathroom and I was brushing my teeth and as I brushed my teeth, my belly was going opposite direction, honestly, and I thought do you know what? I were 106 kilos. I was 106 kilos and I thought this has got to change. This has got to change Because when I'd been Thai boxing I was 73 kilos, so I'd gone up. What 33 kilos.

Speaker 1: 36:50

Well, again, it's a playgroup.

Speaker 2: 36:52

It's not just one toddler, it's a playgroup, isn't?

Speaker 1: 36:56

it. That's basically all the booze, all the bad eating that you go.

Speaker 2: 36:59

Bad eating, yeah, well, also the times that you eat the times that you eat, the times that you eat the times that you eat, not exercising. I got into all that Little sleep. Yeah, I got into all that. And yeah, my stab vest didn't fit me anymore. I'm thinking, you know, if someone's going to stab me, they might not stab me in the heart, they might stab me down sides and it don't fasten. So I need to lose some weight. And so I went back and I thought, well, I can't tie box out walking, went out walking and just going up to Yorkshire Dales because I was working nights, but I stopped working nightclubs as much. Then.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Can't remember my second time at Mint. I can't remember what year that was, can't remember when I finished A long time ago now, wouldn't it when I finished there, but yeah, that's when it sort of all kicked off with my walking stuff. So I was just going out and enjoying walking and I always remember one of the anniversaries where there was someone knocking on the door and I just left it so I'd have an anniversary thing every year for the guys that died in Istanbul and someone put a newspaper through my door and it was like picking up headlines again and I just buggered off and went to Snowdonia and slept in a lay-by and walked up Snowdon and then little did I know that that was going to be my pathway anyway. So, yeah, I just got into the walking and what I found was, when I was going walking, I wouldn't be on the piss the night before because I had to drive to get there. And then I started spending my money on bits of kit and then I would put pictures on Facebook love all over it. Sometimes it does have good bits.

Speaker 2: 38:19

Even though I was still struggling quite a bit, I found that when I was walking, it was like a what I think. What I've realized now is like a meditation, but also an escapism. So I think this is a second escapism, maybe even a third escapism. So I was escaping from a PTSD and depression with the door work because it was such a busy life. You know, and you're always doing something, though you're always talking to people. You always it was always like you had a big network around you, but you probably didn't when, if you, you know what I mean you still only have that small network when it came down to it.

Speaker 2: 38:47

And then, yeah, I got into the walking and people started coming with me. People started coming out doing events and, funnily enough, we spoke to Mike Tomlinson recently and this was before I was qualified and I said I'm going to do a Yorkshire Three Peaks for charity and he went alright, we'll do it with you. So in Tomlinson and I did it four times in four days like a no-bid. My feet were in bits, but it was such a good experience. You know what I mean with four different groups, but because of that, it must have been about 2010,. 2011. So because of that, I'd been on some courses in North Wales, where I did a navigation course with Rob Johnson who then we'll talk about in the middle of the film and been to Norway a couple of times. We were getting all these great expeditions and great Going to all these places, whereas people that I've been hanging around with they're like well, what you're going walking, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Well, I was just going to ask you did other people ridicule you for going out? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:36

Yeah, because what we used to do a lot of time it would be working all week or working and then Sunday was an all-day session, and then I wasn't doing the all-day session because I wanted to move away from that. So I'm going walking, you're doing what, you're going walking.

Speaker 1: 39:48

You're doing what?

Speaker 2: 39:49

You're going to Norway. It's about minus 30. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Brilliant, I remember because we used to work together back then, didn't we? And I remember you going through all these courses and you showed a hole of ice and slept in it. Snow, though, yeah digging snow.

Speaker 2: 40:04

I was like you're absolutely mad and people are like bonkers. But now we get people coming up to me saying can I come and do all that stuff you do? Well, no, go do it yourself. I did. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 40:14

But yeah, I'd met Rob Johnson over in Snowdonia. I actually met a really good friend of mine who, sadly Brett Savage, and we met on the first course that we did together and there were only us two staying in a hotel and he was ex-services and he'd been diagnosed with PTSD but makes my story look. Obviously I mean people dying. It's not great, but I mean his story was. He's made a film. In fact I'll post the link to his film because he did a lot of work for charity, for Beyond the Battlefield, I think it was. But then he went through 10 years of ptsd and took his own life.

Speaker 2: 40:47

But we're doing all these courses and getting qualified. Yeah, I met. I went so because of the york's three peaks. I did a first aid course. Robin recommended helen and steve howe, who've played a massive part in my outdoor life, because helen was like, oh, why don't you do your mountain leader? And I'm like what, what's a mountain leader? What's a mountain leader. What could I? Yeah, you've got enough days and I'm like, well, I'll do the training. And the thing is the training was 350 quid for six days training. At the time I was like that's pretty good. Yeah, I'll do that. I don't have to be a mountain leader. And I found summer because I was pretty crap at identifying flowers so.

Speaker 2: 41:28

I wanted to do it in April. So so I remember doing, oh god, I remember being on haystacks in the Lake District in January and thinking, yeah, it's great, is this? I'm setting off, walking and getting in my tent. And I got up next morning my tent door opened like a barn door, absolutely solid, you know, ice. And I'm like, oh god, I've got another two days doing all these big things by myself, which you know, I suppose I'm still finding myself taking. But the longer that I'm doing stuff and the longer I've been doing stuff, the longer them periods are between bad times. I still have them.

Speaker 1: 41:55

Yeah, I guess they kind of your new path find your way back to you. Yay, you were finding your way back to you, but I didn't know it. But you didn't know that, although the bad times are still in your head, you're trying to build a bridge to a new life and not trying to forget them, but it's like a healing path.

Speaker 2: 42:13

Yeah, well, I always say it's like I don't know when it was. There came a moment when I passed my winter mountain leader, which is a bit of a big deal, because it's fucking, because it's nails. It's like how have I got all these qualifications? I'm on another one now, but it's just one of these things. So I did my winter mountain leader and I'd sort of not talked to anyone really in the mountain world. I made an awful lot of new friends, Friends I have for life. You know what I mean and they all know now. But I'm not really mentioned about PTSD and this mental health. They all knew I worked on doors. Really mentioned about PTSD and this mental health, they only all worked on doors, they only all had this crazy lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Did you not mention it because you thought that, oh, people are just going to ridicule me? Yeah, I spoke to.

Speaker 2: 42:51

Brett about it on the first course but I didn't really talk to many people about it. I'd say, oh yeah, I've had PTSD, which I much do. Now I don't go into that details of how bad it was and what effects you know, I guess you wouldn't want to just tell something random.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Anyway, If you get a response and someone's interested in your story, you would still stand up and tell your story, wouldn't you? Yeah, you wouldn't just go up to someone. Oh yeah, I had PTSD and this is what happened.

Speaker 2: 43:15

No, no, because you don't want to go over that whole story. All the time I found, right at the start, you know when I found, right at the start, you know when people were taking piss out of me, I thought, yeah, man, hopefully he's soft and all this. A lot of times you'd be stood in a room People wanted to know but they'd never understand. So I could be stood in a room full of people that I knew but I didn't know any of them and they didn't know me. Do you know what I mean? I couldn't communicate with people because you talk it's like you're talking a different language, because you can't explain what's going on. I suppose that's like any mental health issue. Yeah, another guest that we had, kelvin when I did his mental health first aid course, one thing that always stuck. Most of it stuck kelvin, honestly. But um, when he said the society's attitude towards mental health is at a similar stage, that society's attitude was to racism 25 years ago. You know what I mean. And up until the COVID thing, I think it was still stuck there and it probably would have always been. And then we've found, you know, this epidemic of people having issues and admitting their issues. But yeah, I got to.

Speaker 2: 44:15

I got me winter mountain leader and for some reason, I think it gives you enough points. It's equivalent to like a Scottish degree. I think I'd have been better getting a Scottish degree. It's pretty tough, pretty tough to get. You've got to know quite a lot and be slick in harsh environments. And I got that and I did a big thing on Facebook again and it was just a big long, basically a thank you and just saying about I'd achieved this, I'd achieved that, I'd reached this, I'd done this. But none of it was actually about me. It was about so I thanked all the people that I needed to thank and I just said but this isn't about me, this is about you or someone you know that can also do this, because if this idiot can do it, then we can. All you know, we can all try and make ourselves better and help each other.

Speaker 2: 45:00

And I think what had happened? There'd been two guys, jimmy Campbell, who used to tie box with us, and Paul here, my mate Andy's, and they'd taken their own lives and I felt a bit selfish Again. This could be another aspect of mental health. It's like a guilt complex which I still suffer from, with the actual somebody dying, that if I'd have spoke about my journey, would they have not decided to take that course of action? You know, I mean, and then I sort of flipped it all the way around and I thought these wankers you don't cut that these wankers that had gone, man up, sort yourself out. You're making a fucking thing out of it. You know, I mean you, just you, you know, sat home crying by yourself and all this shit, and then it's an excuse to go, just go and piss. I thought it's your fault that I've not spoke about this before and I'm not being put down like that and I'm not letting anyone else take that path. If I can help it, you know what I mean. So let's just share it. So when's?

Speaker 1: 45:56

the first time you I know, obviously, but you kind of went public by doing a film.

Speaker 2: 46:04

Yeah. So I did a mountain leader training for a provider up in the Lake District. Of course I'm a course director as well, you know. You know, mountain Leader Award, course director it's a bit of a big deal. So I did a training up there and one of the guys on it, andrew Ixson. He runs a thing called Black Dog Outdoors which is about depression and mental health and the outdoors and how the outdoors can help.

Speaker 2: 46:23

And we were sharing a room, funnily enough, and I was training him and we were talking would you write a little paragraph, a bit for our website? Which I did. And then Rob Johnson saw it, funnily enough, and Rob messaged me and said I think this would make a really good film, because Rob's I mean, I don't see so much of him now unfortunately I went to his business birthday last year but because I'm out providing courses I'm not paying for them. Then we're, as paths cross, we keep in touch. But he said to us would you be interested in making a film? And I was like, oh, I don't know about a film. It's alright writing something, but a film anyway, he's, we'll have to put a link to your film.

Speaker 2: 46:56

Yeah, we will do you know what? It's a great little film and it won. It won quite a few awards and I just thought, as much as I can be telling people my story or when they ask, or putting thing you know things in magazines and podcasts I've done a few podcasts now. Then obviously films can be bigger, so we made the film. It was really funny because rob's not a sort of city boy. He lives in north wales and he spends his time climbing mountains and teaching people to climb mountains and you took him't you. He chose to come into Leeds on a bank holiday, sunday when I was working at Edinist, and you're like, oh dear, out of all the days that lower brigadier's home Lower brigadier was absolute carnage.

Speaker 2: 47:32

Yeah, there were people coming out at Courtyard Party absolutely smashed. And he's like oh my God, what am I doing here? So I'm on the door and we do it. Do you know what? When I look back at that film, I can see that I'm struggling talking. You know what I mean? Because he's asking me questions and then I just talk and I'm going. It's like when we first started this. I'm going, but I'm actually thinking about the incident and going through it.

Speaker 2: 47:59

So we recorded it down there and a young lady came up to the door I mean, you just see the top of her head on the film. So she must have been about 5 foot 3, but she was absolutely off her nut and she said are you a representation of this door? I went yes, I am love. It was quality. Honestly, it was like comedy gold. So I'm talking to her for a while and then I'm saying I can't let you in. I think you've had a little bit too much of something. I don't know what you've had, but I can't leave you in there. And she turned to the camera but Rob couldn't do it because I don't think. I think you need to. I don't know if he wanted to anyway. Well, when you need permission, he already got permission. Of course, she wouldn't have been out writing there and she went. He's a representation of this business and he's a white fox, hence the White.

Speaker 1: 48:39

Fox, hence the White.

Speaker 2: 48:40

Fox. Yeah, that's where that came from. The film actually is called White Fox, the film is called the White Fox and it's by film Rob Johnson film, but we'll put that link in. So, yeah, we've sort of moved on now onto another section, haven't we really? But do you know what? The sort of mental health never left me? The bad times never left me. I think the last couple of years have been a lot better, a lot better.

Speaker 1: 49:02

I mean, you've made some significant changes in life, haven't you? I mean, first of all, you worked on yourself, you worked on finding a new path, or, as you call it, potentially working on escapism, escapism, yeah. Which then kind of became your passion. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:17

Well, yeah, I don't know, is it escaping or is it? Do you know? It's like. You know, the film came out and it was backed by mountain training which really pushed it. They wanted to do it for their mental health thing and it got quite a lot of publicity and it gave me a bit of a platform. So I've spoke at a few, I've spoke at, you know, publicly which is a right laugh.

Speaker 2: 49:35

But you know, I don't know if it's so much escapism or a realisation that why do I keep putting sticky tape on stuff? You know what I mean? It's just getting back down to basics. There is, I know, you know, again David, that we've had on. He's like I don't do anything scientific, do I? I just do something, yeah, which is good. Most of them seem to work.

Speaker 1: 49:56

Yeah, I think a lot of things, going back to me saying that you've made quite significant changes in life. When I still met you, we always go in for steaks, and you even changed your diet completely.

Speaker 2: 50:06

Yeah, I mean that was so. When was that? That was 13 years ago, so when were we there, 2010. But I was still fat, you know what I mean? I was still carrying a lot of weight and I was starting to do climbing. Then I was starting to go climbing and, you know, I had a proper belly on me. It was just a bare belly.

Speaker 1: 50:22

So I remember you stopped eating dairy Well, I stopped.

Speaker 2: 50:25

What I did was I did a six-month nothing processed, nothing that had been touched, nothing that had been put together by anyone else. So at the time I was still eating fish and I was still eating meat, but I just couldn't cook meat so I never bought it, but I'd get a piece of broccoli and a piece of fish, and there's carrots or whatever and cooked them all myself. I did this for six months but it meant I couldn't have any alcohol, couldn't have any dairy, no soft drinks, no sweets, no bread, nothing like that. And I went on this processed food diet. It were awful for the first week, 10 days, but I think that was getting rid of the sugar and probably the alcohol, getting that out of, and I lost 16 kilos. So what's that? 32, 30, 35, 36 pounds, two and a half stone, yeah. And I never went hungry Cost me a fortune, yeah, because I was eating a lot of veg and I felt really healthy.

Speaker 2: 51:11

But then after that I went. Yeah, I just could never go back to dairy. But that's a mindset thing. It makes people piss because I went vegan. But you know, it's like, oh, bloody hell.

Speaker 1: 51:19

Yeah, but you weren't vegan then, were you? No, you were still, oh, dairy-free. Yeah, you were dairy-free, and I guess you just did a bit more research and tried to educate yourself on more things and started listening to audiobooks.

Speaker 2: 51:31

Yeah, well, I mean the audiobooks. Yeah, something I've always wanted to do is get more into my reading, but I think this again, this is another self-diagnosis. I'm going to have to look into this.

Speaker 1: 51:42

I hate words and I think that's a throwback to the I think you mentioned this before especially when you type things on your computer.

Speaker 2: 51:49

Oh, you know what I'm like with computers, I get proper ranty. But when I've read that the Body Keeps the Score, he talks about a thing fear of fear, and it's subconscious, it's working's a shadow in the, in the, in the reeds, or something like that. You know, I mean, hang on, there's something there. So already the stress hormones are kicking in. Well, my stress hormones kick in because or possibly might not be definitively, because lots and lots of words take me back to me, writing lots and lots of words about a traumatic experience.

Speaker 2: 52:28

I remember sat on Filey. Sat on Filey, writing that and thinking I just want to let Anne break off, I want to go insurance for Caroline. You know what I mean, things like that when I think of that. That's what I think about. Sat writing that, writing them notes that I had to write every day for six months to get to process it. But when it took me to some bad places, someone had lost their lives and for a long time I blamed myself about that because I couldn't save him. Yeah, but it wasn't your fault.

Speaker 2: 52:54

But it's easy for me to say that yeah well, it's one of them things, because my doctor I think Caroline was she called when I went in to see her and she'd sent me straight for the mental health. I'd gone back to see a regular and she says how's it going? I went I just can't stop blaming myself and she went. I've looked into it. She went. I shouldn't have done it. Oh shit, I've just said her name. She says, from what I've seen, if he'd have been outside the hospital, he'd he just still died. There's nothing you could do. But that doesn't make it better. No, you know, I mean because you still feel a failure.

Speaker 2: 53:24

For a long time I had a yeah, I'm past it now, I think but a long time I was thinking that I had a thought that there was three outcomes of that situation. I ran back and I saved him, which would mean the best. I ran back and I didn't save him, which is what happened. Or you ran back and you would have I. I ran back and I got killed myself. Now, a lot for a long time.

Speaker 2: 53:46

That wasn't the order that I'd put them in, because a long time I'd have gone best. One would have been me running back and actually getting killed. Do you know what I mean, because of what it was like, because I wouldn't have had to go through all that. But then you've got to face up to the fact that it's not. You know, it's like I've mentioned a few times, been a few times. You know where you're actually quite close to doing something that you probably don't want to do and you think of them around you and the hole you leave. As much as you don't think you're going to leave a hole you would, because I know that when Brett took his life, it proper devastated me.

Speaker 1: 54:21

I'm not happy enough.

Speaker 2: 54:22

Yeah, sorry stating me on that happy note.

Speaker 1: 54:24

Sorry, mate, I'm putting you through this it's great I always spoke to you about we did spend a lot of time together working, so we always had little chats. But hearing it in one big story rather than always 5 minutes there, 10 minutes there, 15 minutes there it actually gives you goosebumps. Knowing that my friend went through some terrible.

Speaker 2: 54:46

Well, you've always been a good friend, haven't you? Otherwise we wouldn't be doing this. I mean to be fair. We'll look at this now, and obviously you've lost your dad. I was going through this and going through doing podcasts for people, and then we. I'll always remember it. Seb, do you think I could do a podcast? No, I better help you.

Speaker 1: 55:06

I better help you because you'll be on 4-0 time, because at that time, I mean this is going to be a plug, isn't it? Because you set up your own business as well? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 55:14

a walking business yeah, so well, I set that up a while ago. Do you know what mate? Do you know what this is? I was doing your website on that. You were doing my website.

Speaker 1: 55:22

Well, I was helping you.

Speaker 2: 55:23

So what happened is? The business launched the week before Christmas 2019. You're going to love this. Two days before New Year New Year's Eve, so 2019, 2020, brought me back in a car crash two fractured vertebrae, so I was going to be off work for three months and then the recovery. I couldn't do anything for three months so I had to sort of postpone everything and then I just got got right walking around and went into covid and all the shit that covid brought. Now, living in a flat by myself during covid and with a, I've also got a autoimmune problem. Doctors have said listen, if you get it, you're probably brown bread. All right, all right, okay. So I think if I had been through everything that I'd been before, that might have flipped me over. Yeah, but it's that having that mental, having that strength of thinking. Well, you know, I've been through times like this before. But I did start drinking quite a lot again.

Speaker 1: 56:12

Alcohol came in again as escapism, didn't it?

Speaker 2: 56:14

Yeah, it's a crutch. I suppose it always would be. But you know, I do like a cold can of beer now and again, as long as it don't get too much. You know what I mean Within moderation. I think I mean it's great. You know we spoke to Adam about when he stopped alcohol. It's like, yeah, I mean I'm running bloody marathons so I'm going to have to stop drinking at some point.

Speaker 1: 56:31

I know you are.

Speaker 2: 56:33

By the way, it's not like I'm drinking copious amounts every day now.

Speaker 1: 56:37

We're just talking to explain yourself.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Just make it sound really bad, but I think, yeah, it's one of those. Now we're on a different journey now, yeah, but it's good that we're on it together, mate, absolutely. So I think we're learning so much and if I hadn't gone through all this and you hadn't gone through your think bits, then we wouldn't be here and we wouldn't be helping other people hopefully. I mean, we're helping ourselves as much as other people. Yeah, I don't do. You know what I just want to?

Speaker 1: 57:07

I just like sticking a big fat middle finger up at the man up people. Well, maybe we should make that our logo. Yeah, could do could do.

Speaker 2: 57:13

Yeah, stick that. Someone actually messaged me during during covid I think it were, because brett took his own life in the august and it were around then and I kept putting things about mental health. And it was around then and I kept putting things up about mental health and it was a respectable well, I thought, a respectable lady. She messaged me oh, another post about mental health. And I'm like, phew, I could have kicked off. You know what I mean. And I stopped posting for a couple of weeks and they were like maybe I'm just, it's too much and people don't want to hear about it. Maybe it's just my world, maybe it's my world because it affects my world and people don't want to hear about it. I spoke to a few, I mentioned it to a few people and they're just like fuck that mate, carry on, do what you're doing. And it's made me come back louder. Yeah, with your help. Thank you, technical wizard.

Speaker 1: 57:58

You're welcome, Charlie. I'm really sorry, but I'm going to have to wrap it up.

Speaker 2: 58:03

You're going to have to wrap me up.

Speaker 1: 58:04

Yeah, wrap me up in cotton wool. You have done before. This was really moving, cool and I think our listeners will appreciate actually knowing your story a bit better, because you know we always talk to other people and talk about their stories. Yeah, we never actually mention your story.

Speaker 2: 58:20

Well good, I mean, sometimes it's difficult to talk about. It does bother me going back to them thoughts, but there again I've sort of took ownership of them now, rather than the PTSD owning them. They're my memories. You're in charge, not great? Yeah, I'm in charge of PTSD. I like to say that I'm not in charge. Yeah, most of the time. I mean the anniversary is coming up and I will feel it around the table. It's weird how the body, it's a calendar, it's just a date and a calendar, but I will have sad times around then, but I just think it's better to turn it in. Whatever positive can come out of it, then. This has got to be it for me. Can I ask you one final question? I don't do extras go on.

Speaker 1: 59:00

You know the friends that you were and the brothers of the people, two people that died. How did they cope with that?

Speaker 2: 59:06

Do you know what? I didn't see a lot of them for a while. Andy, I still see Andy now and we've got something I don't know if I can say about it. There seems to have been a lot of information sort of removed and covered up. So I'm speaking to Andy about that and we've just got to decide whether do we want to open it all up again, because I've already said, we're fighting the British establishment. Really you know what I mean. Look what they did to me and this would be.

Speaker 2: 59:31

So my daughter wants me to write a book which would be about mental health. Really not too much about the incident obviously it's a major part of my life but mainly about wanting to get that out there, about mental health, because we all have it. One in four people in this country will struggle at some point this year with their mental health. Ridiculous, what 60 million people. So we're talking 15 million people, but we can't talk about it publicly. Andy does Still see Daz now and again. Andy I see fairly often and we chat he's running. He's actually running, is he? He's Andy. So a big shout out to Mr Andy Loftus. I've said I'm going to do three peaks with him at some point. He's scared of heights so I want to get him climbing. I'll conquer that for him. You can do that. But yeah, no doubt I'll see them soon.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

Well, thanks for being here.

Speaker 2: 1:00:24

Cheers, absolutely. So I suppose we could say to the listeners if you know anyone that has a story to share or somebody that works in any mental wellbeing, mental health therapy, then we'd be willing to listen, willing to look at that, and you can email us on info at whitefoxtalkingcom. And we're also Well, you can get to us through our link tree, which is white foxtalking.

Speaker 1: 1:00:44

all one word thanks for being here, charlie. We'll see each other next time. Cheers folks, cheers Seb. Bye, bye.