Why Is It So Hard to Talk About Money?

72% of workers who earn 6-figures or more are men - which isn’t surprising considering the disparity in pay between men and women for the same jobs. Part of creating a more equal balance is being comfortable talking more about money - everything from wealth building and wages to financial literacy.

Why is it that talking about money is uncomfortable - particularly for women? We dive into the shame, insecurity, and other emotions around money in this episode - and some tips for starting the conversation with your friends, boss, coach, or partner. We will also talk about making sure you’re getting what your worth.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to Brazen, a weekly podcast where we get down and dirty on how we can live a more bold, curious and vibrant life . We are your hosts: Calley Hewes, a self-care coach and nurse practitioner, and Valerie King-Mallar, a business growth and mindset coach. In this podcast, we are helping women stop people pleasing and perfectionism, awaken their inner badass and discover what can happen when we take the lead in our own life. Join us as we explore everything available to us when we brazenly take accountability for our life and well-being. Let's get started.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Brazen podcast. So before we get started, today we are going to talk a little bit about, kind of our next couple of episodes or next few episodes, and what we'll be covering, and so the last few episodes have been very practical information about leadership in the workplace, but we really believe in making sure that we are covering topics that appeal to our audience, and kind of one thing that's come up is how do we talk about topics that affect women outside of the workplace? And leadership has been really important to us because our audience are ambitious women, but that means that they also are ambitious outside of the workplace, and so we have a whole host of topics that will be slightly different. They won't be just kind of, you know, 10 tips on how to be a better leader or things like that, but they're kind of bigger, more all-encompassing topics, and so stay tuned because this is going to be a whole new kind of trend with our topics and we're really excited to get started.

Speaker 3: 1:49

Yeah, and I'm really excited about the variety of topics that we're going to be covering.

Speaker 3: 1:55

We're going to be talking about everything from, you know, finances and financial literacy to work-life balance and how does that look in different types of lifestyles and relationships, and our big focus is really just to empower ambitious women to just really embody that main character energy in their own life, because it's so common for us, as women especially, to feel like we need to cater to other people more than ourselves, and it's so common for us to kind of get caught in this cycle almost where we're sleepwalking through life and we don't feel like our lives are our own.

Speaker 3: 2:51

Maybe we feel like our lives are ruled by our jobs, our lives are ruled by our family and our kids, our partner. So this is really just going to be rallying call to women everywhere to figure out how you can become the main character in your own life again, and we're going to be talking about all that. That means not just work, not just leadership, but also all of the other aspects of our life that make us a whole-ass person. So I'm really excited about this because I think it's going to be really fun to talk about and it's going to probably get a little bit spicy and controversial too, so that's always fun.

Speaker 2: 3:43

Yes, and I think that what is really special about what we can both bring to this podcast is we are at both kind of different points in our lives, and also your mother, I'm not. I'm child-free by choice, and we've seen that comes up as a topic, and we both kind of have different outlooks on life in general, and so it will be an opportunity for us to kind of explore all sides of the topic. So I'm very excited as well.

Speaker 3: 4:13

And something else that we're really excited about, too, is being able to wrap you, our listener, into the conversation more, and we want to hear your own experiences, and we don't want to have this just be like a one-sided conversation where we are talking at you. We want to hear your perspective on things, we want to hear your questions, and I'm not going to make it sound like we have all the answers on everything, because we certainly don't, but one of our biggest values with Brazen and the Brazen podcast is curiosity, and so if there is a question that you pose to us or like I wonder, and we don't really have an answer, then that is a really good opportunity for us all to kind of explore a topic together and discuss the different angles of it and how it impacts us. So I'm really excited to be able to be much more interactive and hear more from you, our listener.

Speaker 2: 5:22

Yeah, and you said it best when you said that curiosity is really important to us, and our thing is we want to put as many options on the table as possible so that, when you are choosing different things in your life, you know that you have options. And so this will be a great opportunity whether it's us discussing it or you weighing in on social media that will allow us to just kind of explore even more those different options that you might have.

Speaker 3: 5:50

Yeah, and we heard a lot of feedback based on our child free by choice episodes that people hadn't really considered the option of possibly not having kids, and one of the things that I had talked about in that episode and we'll link it in the show notes if you haven't heard it yet One of the things I talked about was how I just kind of got swept up in the process that people go through. Usually it's like you meet somebody, you get married, you have kids. That's just kind of like almost like a given, and I talked in that episode about how I had never really considered any alternative. Like I kind of just accepted that this is how most people do it.

Speaker 3: 6:44

And we heard a lot of feedback after that episode went live that people also felt the same way and they were like I didn't even realize that I didn't have to have kids, which sounds kind of ridiculous, right, but it's just we get so caught up in this like sleepwalking through life kind of deal, where it's like we're not making intentional decisions, we're kind of just going with the flow and what we want to do is we want to. You know, just like Valerie said, let you know that you have options and we're going to like discuss different options that you might have that you haven't considered, so that when you are making decisions on how you want your life to look, it's an informed decision and you're aware of different avenues that you might be able to take, and then you can choose what's best for you based on that, like I think that is the hallmark of living an empowered main character, energy life. So, that being said, let's jump into today's episode, because we're just like you know, going right for the goods with today's topic.

Speaker 2: 8:05

Yeah, we are going to be talking about why it's so hard for us to talk about money particularly women and why we should be talking about money, and I kind of referenced this in the beginning of one of our other episodes how I love when women are willing to talk money and I kind of have the added benefit of coaching women, and money often comes up as part of like goal setting or just kind of working with them, and I get really empowered by the conversations that we're having, because it's like understanding how kind of you know wealth or wealth generation builds power and why it's so important, and just having women who are willing to say I want to make X amount of money, it's like very refreshing.

Speaker 2: 8:52

So I'm really just excited about this topic and we wanted to start it out with a fact of the day, and we actually have a couple of them. But the first one is that 72% of workers who earn six figure salaries or above are men and 57% of workers who earn less than 25,000 a year are women, and this is based on the latest US Census Bureau data and you had mentioned kind of when we were talking about this that the federal poverty threshold for a family is just under 30K and for an individual it's 15K. So those are just some startling different like facts that kind of show us why it's so important to be having these conversations. And you can find tons of facts out there about, you know, percentage of women versus men and all of that in terms of like salary. There's just I urge people to kind of deep dive into researching it because it's pretty alarming and it's we need to know that because we need to be making educated decisions about our own financial futures.

Speaker 3: 10:02

Yeah, and I just want to like call out those statistics one more time and like phrase them in a slightly different way, because they're really impactful, and I know that when we were making the notes for this episode, I was like blown away by it. So 72% of people who earn six figure salaries are men, which means that less than 30% of people earning over six figures are women. That's like a huge disparity and like why is that? I think that's a question that we need to really dig into. It's like why is that such a big difference and why isn't it closer to 50-50?

Speaker 3: 10:48

And then you know you have over half of people earning under the poverty level. They're women and like I don't know about you, but I can't even imagine like supporting a family on less than $30,000 a year. Like that is insane. But it's also important to realize that like over half of the people living under the poverty level supporting a family are women. So those are two really important facts to just keep in mind as we're going through this you know conversation today Because, like Valerie said, we want to talk about why is it so hard for us, as women, to discuss money and to be educated about money and why we need to be more empowered in this area. So let's get into it, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:55

so I would pose a question to you like what has been your experience when it comes to talking about money?

Speaker 3: 12:05

Well.

Speaker 3: 12:05

So that's kind of interesting because I kind of saw my own mindset, you know, at different points of my life reflected in some of the statistics as we were doing research. So it's interesting because most people wish that salary conversations weren't taboo and they believe at the same time that more transparency in financial matters will help with, like equity issues, pay gaps, you know, probably also like I don't have data to support this but like probably eliminating a lot of financial abuse, but at the same time, the majority of people still feel really uncomfortable discussing it. So it's like this cognitive dissonance of like I know that talking about it is going to help, but I still don't want to do it, and that's kind of where I have fallen for, you know, a majority of my life, like literally up until the last couple of years, I think COVID changed a lot of people's mindsets around discussing money and transparency and stuff like that, and I think it kind of changed my mind too. So you know, now I'm trying to be a lot more intentional and conscious about, like when conversations do come up about money, you know, like talking about that without feeling like a undercurrent of like shame or like I shouldn't be talking about this, or like it's rude to talk about how much you make like who do you think benefits from us all having that mindset? Like it's not us, that's for sure.

Speaker 2: 13:50

Yeah, no, I was trying to figure out like where it comes from, and I do think it's a generational thing where it was like just inappropriate to talk about money. But I was, like you know, my parents are very open about financial discussions with me and educating me to a certain extent, and you know I'm like, but I still either. I think I had like the luxury of making a pretty good salary at a pretty young age, which, like you would think, would make me more open to talking about it. But because there wasn't like that concern of like not making enough, except that then it feels like bragging.

Speaker 3: 14:29

So it's either like we feel shame or we feel like we're bragging and yeah, especially if you're like making so much more than like maybe your peers or your friends it's like oh, it's so nice that you're making $30,000 more than me. Like congratulations.

Speaker 2: 14:43

And I think a piece of me felt like I was too young to be making that kind of money.

Speaker 2: 14:47

And I wasn't doing anything like financially responsible with it, so it even felt like worse because I wasn't being super responsible. And I think there is a piece of it too where you're just like you don't want to, yeah, make someone feel bad about themselves and so or you know, you don't feel worthy of the amount, and there's just a lot of like psychological stuff that goes behind it. And it's just very interesting to kind of dig deep, like I never have kind of dug, into why I never talked about finances or even like a desire for, you know, making money or anything like that. And I even know that, like in previous jobs, I'd be like, oh, I'm not motivated by money, and I would say that all the time and I'm like, but I actually am. And even if you're not motivated by the actual, like dollar figure, you could be motivated by, like increases in your salary throughout the years or like yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:39

And just being proud of yourself. And you know, I'm like, why would I like? Just what did I think that made me sound like, you know, like that I sounded so amazing because I wasn't motivated by money or you know, I don't know it. Just it was very interesting to kind of dig into your history of why, you know, having these conversations is so awkward.

Speaker 3: 15:59

Another statistic that I found when I was doing research that was really interesting and I can totally see this being very accurate, even if the statistics weren't there to back it up is that people would rather discuss politics and death over finances.

Speaker 3: 16:20

And I think that that is, I mean honestly, it's like kind of a funny statistic because you know that people don't like talking about death, but it's just interesting that you know it wasn't even close really. So like this statistic is from Empower, which is a financial services company, and they surveyed over 2000 people on a whole bunch of financial matters and they found that people would rather discuss politics, which was 43%, and death, which was 32%, rather than finances, which was coming in at 24%. So that's like 8% less than death, which is like a pretty big difference. So like that was kind of interesting and it just kind of speaks to like how averse we are to these financial topics. And there's also like a huge percentage of people who don't even have transparency within their like intimate relationships, like with their partner or their spouse. It said 46% of those surveyed didn't even talk about finances with their partner, which like a crazy statistic to me. Like half of people don't know what their partner makes, don't know how they spend money. That's just like we can't have that.

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yeah, I was gonna say it was surprising.

Speaker 3: 17:53

Yeah, it just opens the door for so much like potential financial abuse and mismanagement of money when it's like just this huge secret and that's you know, most often the financial abuse is, you know, something that affects women in relationships because we are typically, like statistic wise, lower earners than our male counterparts and so you know it kind of creates this power dynamic within a relationship that's really important to be aware of. So the first step to avoiding that is like literally just not having it be a secret and talking about it in your relationship like that's step one.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah, you know I always, like I was just talking with someone about how kind of one of my biggest fear for women is that like sort of stereotypical thing where someone you know gets divorced and they don't have like any idea about their finances. Or you know their spouse dies and they don't know how to like manage the money that they have, or you know just kind of like that not having agency over your financial future. Because if we're really honest, like money is power and you know, not having that leaves it so that you don't. It's both power and freedom and not having it means that you can be trapped and it's really hard to kind of watch that play out for people and particularly women.

Speaker 3: 19:27

Yeah, so let's talk about what we can do about like making it less of a taboo and you know how, to kind of become more financially educated, I guess.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Yeah, so I think you know the first thing is taking ownership over your education, like you can't just assume that it's going to be like imparted on you, and so I do think that like spending some time getting to know, like your options and really diving down into what your goals are financially, how you can get there, like you know, and just really understanding your own personal current finances is really important.

Speaker 3: 20:12

That's a really good point, because I know that I am guilty of this at different points, where I just get so caught up in the day to day that and, like you know, just paying the bills as they come in and you know, if that goes on for a while, you just kind of don't really know where you stand, you know financial wise, and you also kind of fall into this trap of like just treading water as opposed to setting financial goals, saving towards them and being able to have the reward of seeing the progress that you're making. So, yeah, being aware of, like, what your current status is and being able to make goals off of that is so important.

Speaker 2: 20:59

And I think that you know. Going back to the main topic, it's just having conversations about it. I think that I'm part of a mastermind group and we talk about pricing or services and or products, and I think that you know one thing that's really important is having those conversations so that you get more comfortable charging what you're worth or, if you're working in a company, asking for what you're worth, and I think the more you're able to talk about those types of topics or being like honest about what you're hoping to make, the more support you have in that. And we all recently just said that we felt like it was so much easier to state our prices to our customers because we had talked about it so much that we were like, yeah, this is how much I charge, like it didn't feel like such a weighty number. And I think this particular topic is really important to me because I do work with so many entrepreneurs and, I swear every single client. I'm like I don't think you're charging enough, I don't think you're charging enough.

Speaker 2: 22:03

I literally feel like I sound like a broken record, but, as you said, we've been doing some research for this particular episode, and one was that female entrepreneurs pay themselves about 28% less than male entrepreneurs, and 20% of women believe that they have to charge less than men to get and keep clients. And I'm like what the fuck? Where did that come from? Why would we have to charge less? I'm like that's really bad thinking, and so I think it's really important to have these conversations so that we can empower each other to charge what we're worth.

Speaker 3: 22:38

So yeah, yeah, and I think that, whether we're talking about as an entrepreneur, charging what you're worth, or as an employee building a career, asking for what you're worth for salary or pay, I think that it's important to just be aware of all of the baggage that comes out when we talk about having those conversations.

Speaker 3: 23:09

One of the common things that I've heard in the entrepreneurial world is okay, take whatever you want to charge and then double it and that's what you should charge, and just all of the feelings that come up about that insecurities, about imposter syndrome, not feeling like you're actually worth that amount of money, being worried about people perceiving you as being really shallow and money driven and money hungry. I think that there's just this narrative that's kind of forced upon us from such a young age where, as girls and as women, we're so discouraged from appearing to care about money and I don't have any data to support this, but I feel like that probably comes from that like patriarchal, paternalistic, like you don't need to worry about money, the men will take care of you, they will meet your needs. I think it really kind of boils down to that you know, like you don't need to worry about it, like just sit down, we'll take care of all of that stuff, and so it's kind of just persisted and now we're like feeling really uncomfortable compared to men, with charging the premium prices for premium services and asking for what we are worth rather than just taking on more work because it kind of fuels that subconscious need to serve people, to feel valuable, like all those things are just so subconscious in us. One of the things that I'm really passionate about is like examining that stuff and like unpicking it and like unpacking and being like well, where does that actually come from? Is there any truth to it or is it kind of just like a story that was told to us for so long that we just believe it?

Speaker 2: 25:12

Yeah, no, I think it's really important and you know you said that, like you've heard, you know, take your fee and double it, like I literally say that to coaching clients, and I think that the key like I always encourage people to really look at why that's a struggle for them, and a lot of times they'll do it and then they'll be like well, I added these three things for free to make it worth it.

Speaker 2: 25:33

And I was like it was worth it to begin with. Like I don't know what you are worried about, and I think you know we're not asking women to just like double their prices so that they can like make it a shitload of money. It's because, like they're not getting what they're even worth and they aren't even making enough to survive as a business. So, like the point is to be very transparent about what you're charging and what people are getting and they can choose to purchase it or not. Like you're not trying to be sleazy or like bait and switch people or anything like that. You're just like here's my offering.

Speaker 2: 26:05

I feel like I offer a premium product, like you said, and this is what I charge and you know you can take it or leave it, and I think that it is just. It is a struggle and, like you said, it's a good idea to go back and look at where did this come from. Like that you struggle so much to charge X amount and is it a fear of people not purchasing or people thinking you're crazy, or is it like feedback from family members or you know where is just these kind of negative thoughts coming from?

Speaker 3: 26:33

Yeah, and I think that confidence is also really important. I mean, it's like when you go into, say, like, a salary negotiation with your boss, you can't go in there and be like well, I mean, I think I'm worth this much money and so like, do you think that you could pay me? You know that or like even just something close to that. Like you know, maybe like I could even go down to whatever. Like if you go into it like that, I hate to paint with a broad brush, but like people are going to take advantage of that. Yeah, because at the end of the day, they're running a business and their whole objective is to make money. And so if you're seeming to be okay with taking, you know, 20% less for your salary, if they can get away with paying you less, they're going to.

Speaker 3: 27:28

Yeah, unless you have like a really progressive, upstanding company or boss that you're working for.

Speaker 3: 27:37

That encourages you to ask for what you deserve.

Speaker 3: 27:42

You know people aren't going to just like hand it over to you on a silver platter, so like I think the other piece of this is that it's going to require a lot of like soul searching and inner work on yourself to get to the point where you actually believe that you are worthy of making equal to what a man makes for doing the same work.

Speaker 3: 28:07

Yeah, and that is not something that's going to happen overnight. It's going to be like a process of just building your confidence and knowing that, like you, in and of yourself, are worthy. You don't need to throw in all of these extras or take, like you know, a slight pay cut because maybe the company is facing really hard times right now and they might not be able to meet your salary request. You know, pushing back on that a little bit and this is kind of funny, but I saw this thing on the internet, I can't remember where exactly, but it was saying that you know you need to embody the confidence of a mediocre white man when you're going into salary negotiations and that kind of thing, because they're not afraid to, you know, shoot for the moon and ask for way more than seems reasonable, because if you're going in there with that kind of confidence, you're probably going to lock out with more than you expected, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 29:20

Yeah, I have like two points of what you just said like.

Speaker 2: 29:24

The first one is I've been lucky to work for the progressive companies that do want to pay people what they're worth, but like part of it is you coming in and showing us what you're worth, and I think that is hard because it's still a negotiation, no matter what kind of like negotiation it is, and part of the interview process is showing us that this is what you should be getting, and I think you know.

Speaker 2: 29:49

The second piece is you have to not go into negotiations or pricing with fear. It's kind of like buying a car. You have to be willing to walk away, and I think that's what holds us back the most is fear of losing a client or not making a sale and fear of, like, losing that job. But the thing is you tie yourself to pricing that isn't going to help you survive as a business owner, or you tie yourself to a salary that you can't live with, and so you know. You just need to know that the flip side is not much better. You're better off walking away from something that's not going to work for you.

Speaker 3: 30:28

Yeah, and something that's really practical that I started doing for myself when I was working for a different company is I created a brag folder in my email and so anytime I got praise for doing something really well or it talked about a project that I had contributed to, anything that can kind of reinforce and support my argument of like what I'm bringing to the table for the company goes into that folder and then at the end of the year when you're doing your annual reviews and your annual self reflections and all that kind of stuff, you don't have to rely on your memory and, like not wanting to sound braggy or like full of yourself or whatever, you can go back to that folder and be like, no, I really am that awesome and I really am that badass, because look at this whole list of things that I've done really well this year and having that like actual, objective evidence of your contributions is going to not only boost your confidence in what you're bringing to the table, but it's also going to provide evidence to your employer or like two clients, about the value that you are asking for them to recognize and pay for.

Speaker 3: 32:07

So that is something really practical that I have seen help in my own career and life, and then also, like for entrepreneurs, you can kind of do the same exact thing, because every year when you're kind of reviewing your financials and looking at the numbers and trying to figure out like, how much you're going to be paying yourself over the year like any bonuses or payouts or whatever, you can almost use that brag folder as like an argument to yourself about why you should possibly be paying yourself even more than you're getting right now. So maybe try that if you're looking for an easy way to kind of get more confident in those conversations about money, because that's a really good way to boost your confidence.

Speaker 2: 33:03

Yeah, and one other thing I kind of talked to clients about is just remember that the more money you make, the more you're able to donate or put towards things that matter to you, and that's really important. If we look at the state of our political world right now, it's not very women's rights focused and reproductive rights focused, and if you can bet that if women held the majority of wealth in the country, that would be not the case. Money.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Iced power yeah exactly, and I think just remembering that, like you can use your money for good and so being able to charge enough, that you have a little cushion that can be used to support other women or help empower other women, or both on a national and a community level, is just really important, and it's not always just a bad thing like having that money. So I think that just focusing on kind of the good that you can do can help empower you to have those conversations and to ask for what you need. Yeah, definitely. So we want to end with a question and I'm going to ask this to you, callie, first, and we would love for people to answer on social media as well but what is your biggest goal when it comes to your finances right now?

Speaker 3: 34:27

I'd say that my biggest goal is to live a comfortable lifestyle where I am able to not have to pinch pennies or check my bank account before like going on Amazon, you know, with the holidays coming up and still be able to also contribute to savings at the same time. So for me, you know, I have a work supported retirement fund that I'm contributing to, and also my husband and I are working on saving towards several financial goals. So that's my biggest goal at the moment is just to be able to, like, live a comfortable lifestyle but still be saving for the future at the same time. How?

Speaker 2: 35:18

about you, Val? I'm going to cheat a little bit.

Speaker 2: 35:22

No answer a slightly different question, but I think right now my goal in kind of the financial world is to keep having these conversations, enforcing clients to have them. I've found that with the clients where we do focus a lot on kind of their wealth building and just goal setting when it comes to financials have been way more successful and like I see that they embrace what they can do with that money and it's just it's really empowering to see the changes that they're making in the world with that additional money that they're making in their businesses. So I think to continue to do that, even sort of twofold, with all of my clients I think would be really amazing.

Speaker 3: 36:06

I love that, and so we want to also hear from you, like, what are some goals that you have for your own finances? Like, what would you like to start really intentionally working towards? We want to hear from you for real. We're not just saying that so you can just hit the button in the show notes to email us and just you don't even have to like write a whole big paragraph, but just like send us a little line on what your financial goals are. What are you working towards? What are you inspired to pursue after listening to this episode?

Speaker 3: 36:47

You can also reach us on Instagram. We are at Breezin podcast on Instagram, so send us a DM there and we read all of the stuff ourselves and we will respond to you personally from Valerie and Kali. And if you just cannot get enough of the Breezin podcast and you want more, check out our Patreon and you'll be able to follow us and see updates and resources that we're posting. And you can also join us as a patron and get the opportunity to have group coaching and Q&A with us on a monthly basis for a really, really affordable price I think it's like $7. So check that out and be sure to tune back in next week and we're going to be continuing these conversations so that you can embody main character energy in your life. Keep being Breezin.

Speaker 2: 37:49

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Breezin podcast. We'd love to hear more about your parenthood or child-free journey, so please feel free to email us at hello at Breezinwomencom. If you liked this episode. Please rate, review and share the episode so we can get the word out there. We'll be back here next Tuesday, but in the meantime, keep being Breezin.