Music Therapy & Guitar

Does playing acoustic guitar provide benefits beyond the joy and satisfaction of making music? Join music wellness specialists Michelle Qureshi and Ian Wilkerson to learn about a range of music therapy experiences and explore the physical, emotional, spiritual, and clinical benefits of playing and listening to acoustic music.

Thank you to Strings By Mail for sponsoring this episode. Explore guitar strings and special offers at stringsbymail.com.

Additional Resources:

• Michelle Qureshi is a classically trained guitarist, multi-instrumentalist, composer, Reiki Master, practicing yogi, student of Shamanism, and presenter of sound experiences. Learn more at michellequreshi.com.
• Ian Wilkerson is a board certified music therapist, breathwork coach, guitarist, singer-songwriter, and the founder of Bay Area Music Therapy.
• Read the "Possible Mechanisms for the Effects of Sound Vibration on Human Health" article referenced in this episode.

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The Acoustic Guitar Podcast theme music is composed by Adam Perlmutter and performed for this episode by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers.

This episode is hosted by Nick Grizzle and E.E. Bradman, produced by Tanya Gonzalez, and directed and edited by Joey Lusterman. Executive producers are Lyzy Lusterman and Stephanie Campos Dal Broi.

The Acoustic Guitar Podcast is produced by the team at Acoustic Guitar magazine, including:

• Publisher: Lyzy Lusterman
• Editorial Director: Adam Perlmutter
• Managing Editor: Kevin Owens
• Creative Director: Joey Lusterman
• Digital Content Director: Stephanie Campos Dal Broi
• Digital Content Manager: Nick Grizzle
• Marketing Services Manager: Tanya Gonzalez

Transcript

Joey Lusterman: 0:00

Welcome to the Acoustic Guitar Podcast. I'm Joey Lusterman. Does playing acoustic guitar provide benefits beyond the joy and satisfaction of making music? In seeking to answer that question, we learn about a range of music therapy experiences and explore the physical, emotional, spiritual and clinical benefits of playing and listening to music. Hosts Nick Grizzle and Elton Bradman are joined by guests Michelle Qu Koreshi and Ian Wilkerson. Michelle Qureshi is a classically trained guitarist, multi-instrumentalist, composer, practicing yogi, student of shamanism and presenter of sound experiences. And Ian Wilkerson is a board-certified music therapist with dual degrees from Berklee College of Music, a breathwork coach, guitarist and singer-songwriter and the founder of Bay Area Music Therapy. Before we dive into this fascinating discussion, I'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor for this episode. Strings by Mail.

Strings by Mail: 0:54

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Nick Grizzle: 1:23

You can learn more at stringsbymailcom so first thing I wanted to ask ian I'm going to start with you on this one what initially drew you to the guitar, and can you briefly tell us a little bit about what pulled you toward the area of music that you're now working in?

Ian Wilkerson: 2:18

I'd say what pulled me to the guitar was my mom and dad playing all of the great music from the 60s and 70s. When I was a young kiddo, you know, just growing up with a couple of rock and roller hippies who you know so the Beatles, jimi Hendrix, dylan all of the great music that I grew up listening to from my mom and my dad. That's pretty much how I first got the guitar. And then what really did it was the. The. The deal was my uncle. He gave me my first electric guitar, so that was my first instrument. It was a bc rich rave. It was really, really heavy. So I appreciated my first acoustic after that.

Ian Wilkerson: 3:04

For sure what what pulled you toward the area of music you now work in. I come from a family of healers and integrative practitioners and even MDs. Some of the people in my family are MDs Like literally. I have like 10 chiropractors in my immediate family. My dad's a chiropractor, my mom was a sexologist and a tantrica and a Reiki and breathwork practitioner.

Ian Wilkerson: 3:26

My sister my older sister had in her younger life worked with special needs and in high schools, and then what really drew me to it was when I realized the power of music to bring people together in community and help them grow and find their own wellness. And so I did that. And in junior high and high school I would take my guitar to the special education classrooms and I would. I would go join the special you know special day class, bungalow and on sixth period or lunch and I would jam with the kiddos. And I think that's really was the beginning of the seed that was planted. I had no idea at that point that I would pursue a degree and career in music therapy, but that was the beginning of it.

Nick Grizzle: 4:09

Michelle, what drew you to the guitar initially and what pulled you toward the area of music you now work in?

Michelle Qureshi: 4:16

Sure, well, when I was very young I just seemed to have this affinity for that instrument. You know something about those strings just pulled me in. But of course, you know, it was just toy guitars. We go to the you know shop and get a treat, and I just get these toy guitars that would inevitably be broken or maybe, you know, destroyed in some way. And then visuals the cartoon with the Beatles came out, you know, like similar to you. The cartoon with the Beatles came out, you know, like similar to you. There were the you know 60s and 70s and very guitar focused kind of pop music and just really cool stuff going on. But I was still just you know little and attracted to it.

Michelle Qureshi: 4:57

And not until I was 13 years old I bought my first guitar and started just you know immersive self-teaching myself how to play all kinds of fretted instruments and just started collecting them. And when it was time for college, you know, I was a little bit like not encouraged because I had a really different family background than Ian and nobody was really into music, nobody really knew that path or the healing arts in any sense. So that's been kind of a more solo journey for me when I started out in college it was for psychology. I got three semesters in and I was like I was. I was dying inside because I didn't have that creative outlet.

Michelle Qureshi: 5:41

And I changed course and I started from scratch as a classical guitarist and that was my training, you know, to learn that and that you know most of the other students you know they started playing at three years old and it was a very, very interesting thing. But I'm absolutely glad I did it and that foundation, I believe, laid the groundwork for what I've come to with music now, this many years later. For the last dozen years I've been playing and making my own music and presenting like sound immersions with all the different instruments, the healing instruments. So that healing aspect I came by through the process of kind of doing it myself attending yoga, playing guitar for yoga, then attending the classes and doing more and more spiritual expansion, which expanded my music, and being able, because I had that foundation, to do this all in what feels like a very intuitive approach now and that's you know that passion is there and it kind of just passes through the intellect. So, briefly, I don't think about it now, I just play and I love to do that.

E.E. Bradman: 6:58

I would love to ask what? How do you define? We're thinking about terms? Ask how do you define we're thinking about terms? Sound healing, music, therapy. I'd love to hear your opinions on the difference between those two things, or is there a difference?

Ian Wilkerson: 7:11

Yeah, there's two different. Well, there is and there isn't. So you know there's this whole. There's different pedagogies, there's different, higher, you know, opportunities for education and different curriculums and schools and programs. You can get a degree in sound healing and you can get a degree in music therapy and they are separate pedagogies and I tend to explain it to my clientele, like and to others, that in the sound healing world, my understanding and I do integrate some sound healing into my work, but it's more of a passive experience where the recipient receives the sound and the acoustics and the vibrations and it's a relaxation experience or anxiety reduction or guided imagery through music, and it's a more passive experience.

Ian Wilkerson: 7:56

And as a music therapist, the difference for me in my training and my practice is that mine is interactive. Interactive and my goal in well, 80% of the time, my goal in my clinical work is to engage my clientele in developing an active relationship and participation in music making and it's through the relationship of making music with a skilled clinician or therapist that the therapeutic relationship is scored and that opportunities for change and growth and whatever it is that we're working on wellness, anxiety reduction, habilitative goals, impulse control, learning, cognitive TBI, rehabilitation, learning how to talk again- whatever it is that we're working on.

Ian Wilkerson: 8:43

it's through the act of being engaged in music making. And then I'd say there's also training in music therapy. When you go to get a degree, you also have subspecialties within being board certified as a music therapist. There's subspecialties that are like the Bonnie guide to you know, guided music, relaxation, guided imagery through music. So there are passive experiences that I do include sound opportunities like that. But that's the big difference. When I get together with kiddos, we play, we run around, we jump, we move, we dance, we sing, we scream, we breathe deep in some instances, and so I think that's a notable difference in terms of the education I got and also my clinical practice.

Michelle Qureshi: 9:25

So that's really interesting to hear and really you know a different trained approach. I'm trained as a musician, so that's not really. There's not really a methodology I use to it. Beyond that, approaching it passionately, and I typically, let's say, in these sound immersions, I call my thing a harmonic sound immersion and I wouldn't say that it's passive, because it's an experience that's being shared and oftentimes I'll do them in yoga studios or whatnot, and you know a couple dozen people maybe are in Shavasana or any comfortable position For about an hour my improvisation on everything from, you know, my guitars to flutes, and I'm looking around my room the gongs, the chimes, the didgeridoo gongs, the chimes, the didgeridoo, just all these really healing instruments that I kind of just use to create an experience.

Michelle Qureshi: 10:31

They don't touch an instrument in this instance. They are just in some kind of meditative space that benefits them, that heals them in whatever way they are needed. I akin it more to a Reiki experience really, because I feel like the vibrations and the musical energy, just through pure music and connection with the people who are present, that kind of guide me. What I'm playing, that experience takes them wherever they needed to go, the more of a meditator they already are, or you know, plugged into certain disciplines, the experiences just seem to be more astounding. On the other hand, you know, I've done it for a group of students on the spectrum and one of the most vivid experiences happened by to one of the aides who were there with the kids. She literally, you know tears in her eyes experiencing the connection with a son she had just lost.

Michelle Qureshi: 11:38

You know, and some of these stories are just so, so amazing through the power of music. I don't start them out saying, you know, here's, here's the love tone, the 528 hertz, you know, or this is going to help your hips, or something like that. I'm just kind of, almost, in a way, naively playing and creating a sound experience. That again, I don't think it's passive, but it's not, you know, in the sense as you're explaining, where you know you get up and move around and do that. So I continue to do that, I've been doing that for about five years and so in that way, that's the experience, I know, through these instruments, the experience as healing through just the guitar, that's kind of a different and generally very intimate thing as well.

Ian Wilkerson: 12:33

Beautiful In terms of the passive statement I made, like and no intention to, you know, diminish the value of sound healing at all. I was just trying to create a motoric, clinical difference in terms of like the engagement and the level of interactivity, because it's not they're not laying in a state and receiving the sound Right, but in terms of quantum mechanics and my understanding of energy and vibrational frequency and all of those aspects, absolutely no matter what we do in our existence, there's tons of interaction on a more microscopic level.

Ian Wilkerson: 13:08

So you know, when I do sound healing in my work as well, I totally honor and understand and love that there's a lot of interaction going on that I'm not seeing with my eyes. So yeah, just wanted to add that.

E.E. Bradman: 13:26

Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. I love there's so much beautiful crossover between what you do.

Ian Wilkerson: 13:33

There really is. There really is, yeah.

Michelle Qureshi: 13:35

And interesting, because the training is quite different really. I mean, yeah, we're both in that funnel of music, but you know the methodologies you employ and the way I intuit music, music and what it does.

Nick Grizzle: 13:51

it is it is pretty interesting yeah yeah absolutely elton, like you were saying, there's very different ways of using this. The idea of healing, but uh, it's, it's all coming back to, like music is so powerful. You know and I wanted to get your take on and, mich, we could start with you on this one Some of the things that music, and maybe specifically like guitar, if you want to get into that can do for one's overall health. Maybe somebody doesn't say I specifically need X, y or Z, just in general. What are maybe some of the things that you've seen or that you know of that music has the power to kind of affect one's overall health and if there's anything specific with guitar that might be in that realm too.

Michelle Qureshi: 14:40

Sure, yes. Well, first of all, for for me, guitar playing is a meditation, Um, and when I present it, for instance, I'm really done with kind of playing the background, gigs or the, you know, the wine, wine cellars or whatever. So what I found as far as other than just a concert or sound immersion, I tend to play, you know, for different worship services, because you have the silence and the focus, and when I'm playing for that I can see the impact. It's almost like offering a prayer, you know, I mean I see it in a secular way for me, but I am in different houses of worship, so it has taken in as ever. But so, from what I offer, I see it in that way, you know I'm, I'm sharing a meditation or a prayer or um, always within that as a story, just kind of wrapped around the emotions of of the piece. For me personally, the experience and I hope I understand the question how it impacts me, Um, it's something. Uh, if I'm away from it too long, I can feel. I can feel that, you know, my focus is slipping and my soul connection even a little bit slipping. So I have to have that time that is just purely improvisational on the instrument. You know it's not like, oh, I need to practice this, or you know, I need to finish writing that, I need that just space to create, and it just changes my mood, it grounds me and it, you know it raises me up too, you know. So it gets it's that, you know, heaven and earth kind of pull, and so it's been a really important part of my life.

Michelle Qureshi: 16:30

There's been times where, you know, I've been away for quite a while of the instrument but, like I said, the last dozen years, you know, I've been pretty solidly there making music, creating and sharing it. And the it's not just a, you know, it's a physical thing, it's a mental thing, it's almost a whole mind-body complex for me, you know, because there's a way it feels right, it's very tactile, there's a way that sound comes into you and comes through you and then there's the emotion behind it, so that all, just, you know, the it just kind of keeps, uh, adding up to such an experience, and when you can share it with others, that's fantastic. But I also just need some of that for me. So so, yeah, I haven't taught for ages, I, so I can't really, you know, I have to draw on some memory to see the impact of, you know the accomplishments it offers someone trying to learn the instruments, the satisfaction, the love of creating something you know just with your own hands and heart.

Michelle Qureshi: 17:57

So I would say those benefits are the big ones that I've observed in the past in teaching. And just, you know everybody that plays for, or let's say, plays from the heart, not from the ego, for, or let's say, place from the heart, not from the ego. People hear that, people connect with that. The ego stuff gets very messy in connecting but you know, heart to heart, you know you touch each other's soul.

Ian Wilkerson: 18:22

Yeah, and how about you? Well, just in my interest to try to bring it back into the acoustic. You know, in my clinical work I'll speak about the people I serve and my mission in life and to help people grow through music and relate to themselves and others. And the thing that is one of the biggest hurdles for me in my clinical practice is how I integrate this technological phenomenon in terms of screen time and all of the beat ready, quick, instant gratification, short attention spans, like everybody thinks they're a beat producer, everybody's gonna use electronics to create music and it's at everybody's fingertip and so it also. You know, in some ways it also brings them farther away from their somatic self, from their energy, from their frequency. And on the other hand, it kind of philosophically it brings them closer away from their somatic self, from their energy, from their frequency and on the other hand, it kind of philosophically it brings them closer to the quantum mechanic world because you know, like you know, technology can converge with the energy too.

Michelle Qureshi: 19:18

But anyway, not to get too heady on that.

Ian Wilkerson: 19:20

But, like, the thing I'm saying is that I really appreciate acoustic guitars and the acoustic instruments because when I'm working with people in music, I want to get them engaged in learning and making music and experiencing music and being crafts and, like, my goal is to anybody. There's no prerequisite or music knowledge and when you come and work with music therapy, I'm your coach and it's my job to help the other person find access to expressing through music, to using the language of music, and they don't have to have any background or training. And it's my responsibility to help create a container that is safe and that they can find trust in music so that they can use that medium to express and to relate to me and to themselves. And so the beautiful thing is, when they come in and they're like, oh, they want like easy access, I always have to like grapple with, like, okay, how am I going to bring them back to the acoustic? Like I want to just use the drum and my acoustic guitar and I don't want it to be about producing a beat. Or you know, when I'm in teen treatment and I'm working with suicidal ideation and OCD and like mental, you know, moderate to mild mental health challenges with teens, like you know, I want to bring it to the acoustic, but everybody wants to use the recordings of their favorite music and stuff. So I really love the acoustic guitars ability.

Ian Wilkerson: 20:35

Once I find my in and I can create that buy-in from the people I'm working with and I'll use technology and I'll use the screen or I'll use Spotify playlists and, like, explore their favorite music. But then I bring it back to the acoustic. I'm okay, okay, well, let's do it, you and me, like, let's turn the recording off, let's pull up the ultimate guitar tabs and let's look at how the song goes, let's look at the lyrics and analyze them and let's play it on our acoustics. Oh, you don't know how to play acoustic? Well, here's a bass. Let me show you how chord tuning on the acoustic and they don't have to know anything about fretting. But I can be like okay, well, the key of the song is in C and I know I can craft an experience for the person where they don't have to have the fine motor skill, but I can give them an instrument that's intentionally premeditated and set up like an acoustic guitar tuned to open D chord and I can play.

Ian Wilkerson: 21:30

Here comes the sun in the key of D by the Beatles and they can strum that open D chord through the whole song and it just sounds cool, even when I'm not playing a D, because it's a poly chord and and it's still within the tonal center. And they feel the success and the reward. And that's the importance of the acoustic instrument for me Um, and being able to adapt and be malleable with the instrument and change the tuning real quick and give the client something to hold and to feel the vibration. Versus if I have an electric guitar, you know they might get a different tactile somatic experience from the electric. It's still going to be vibrational from the speaker but it's really powerful for me to be able to give a kiddo on the spectrum with sensory integration issues you know, who struggles with his sensorial system to like give them a guitar and have them hold it and have them play an open low D. I drop it down, turn it down so that the vibration is more robust and help them feel that tactilely.

Nick Grizzle: 22:26

So that's some ways in which the acoustic really supports my work and empowers me and my clients to have greater access to the experience have you experienced people telling you like, wow, this helped with this particular thing that I'm working on, or I felt this way that I haven't felt in a while or haven't ever felt because of an acoustic instrument experience?

Ian Wilkerson: 23:01

Oh, absolutely. And I can give you one that's even more magical than like a verbal self-report. Like you know, verbal self-report is great, but, like when I work with minimally responsive individuals who might be in a vegetative state, or when I work with I also work with hearing impaired individuals. So, you know, being able to and this can also be really prevalent with like a really good subwoofer, but bringing it to the acoustic when I have, like a hearing impaired client, um, and it's also relative to like ASD and on sensory systems, because they get that vibrational impact.

Ian Wilkerson: 23:36

But, yes, there's been a client I can think of one who you know was very disengaged and I'm, you know, trying to pull out all the tools out of my, my tool bag to try to like, elicit some interaction or some robust facial affect or something that shows me they're, they're, they're connecting to me in some capacity, um, beyond just the energy of being in the same room, um, and and the moment that I came close enough to where they could feel the acoustic, like the vibrational feeling of the acoustic, and then, moreover, as soon as I like they, you know, I gently invited and elicited.

Ian Wilkerson: 24:09

I like they, you know, I gently invited and elicited and asked if, if you know, with little gesture, hand over hand support, like you know, can bring their hand over to the acoustic and I you could put their hand on the acoustic and then I would play some chords. And the moment that they felt the guitar and it was like a light bulb went off, like oh, now I'm. They were brought into the experience more than they were before and it was really impactful because prior to me finding that, that, that door, that portal to get them to connect with me and the experience, they were a little bit more aloof and kind of like ambivalent and like maybe meandering in the room and exploring their sensory environment, maybe meandering in the room and exploring their sensory environment. And then, you know, once I was able to bring us closer in proximity and them onto the guitar, it just ignited a much more, a deeper rapport and the connection started to really formulate.

E.E. Bradman: 25:04

Michelle, I'm curious. You know I saw a picture of you with a beautiful harp guitar and just hanging out on Spotify. Yes, and I'm so curious your feelings about acoustic instruments in these settings? Would you make the same music, the beautiful music that you do on an electric Would?

Michelle Qureshi: 25:29

you make the same music, the beautiful music that you do on an electric. It's not the same on an electric, I mean, you'll go through my catalog and you'll find pieces. I love working with it too, but it's the vibration you know you're holding, I think about when I'm holding the guitar and playing this right against my heart chakra, you know, and you just, and, whether it's a little ukulele or the guitar lely, you know, I even have some Turkish and other instruments that are part of, you know, that connection. Now, not to say that this basket of flutes over I have over here aren't beautiful for the throat, chakra, you know, they all have their place, but the vibrating strings are, you know, I mean, as soon as someone in history, you know, pulled some, you know, held one length, another and gave it a pluck. I mean there's something about the uh, you know, chordophones in general that are to me really heart-centered, heart-based.

Nick Grizzle: 26:30

Um, now, I may have gone on one of those tangents we were talking about, but no, yes, I think we're right, right in the zone because we're talking about guitars, right like the specifically plucked instruments right, right.

Michelle Qureshi: 26:44

So that harp guitar, what? What can be beautiful about that is because of bass. You know, the strings are on the bass, they're unfretted, so there's six that just go, descending from D, c, b all the way down to F, which I usually drop down to E. It's a little more practical. But even when you're just playing on those six strings because you hit that just occasionally you don't want constant bass strings, it's too much.

Michelle Qureshi: 27:11

Yeah, this it's still all just in this vibrational thing and it feels really good, you know, it feels good against your body. I also have, over on this other one, a guitar that's, it's not a baritone, it's literally an octave lower. It's there, it's a like a nylon string body and every string is pitched an octave lower. And I really respond to bass, you know, and, uh, that that part of it really feels good too. You know, um, so I'm with you on the acoustics of of saying you know the beauty of those vibrations. The different frequencies have their, um, their colors. You know, I get a little bit. You know, different keys can bring colors to me and I I really. You know, it's all like on the spectrum of what we can see and hear, but they all go beyond that.

Nick Grizzle: 28:06

You know, are there different? I know there's certain frequencies that connect with the human body in different ways, but is there in?

Michelle Qureshi: 28:35

general, something about lower pitched or higher pitched frequencies that kind of maybe activate certain things in the body or certain things in the brain that you've seen or that you know about through research. Well, research-wise I can't speak really clearly on that, but I can touch upon the idea about the A440 kind of thing being more of a mental stressor and that if you do drop things down to A equals 432 hertz instead I don't know how much of that is the real or placebo, but it does feel better. It just feels a little bit more. And there's different research and experiments on that kind of thing. But I think we're, you know, except for some of my tuning bowls and other singing bowls that I have that are tuned to 432 and a couple of current projects, it's really hard to get that, um, you know, in the mainstream acceptable. I think there's more and more music being played and written in that.

Michelle Qureshi: 29:28

But I know as as recently as uh being in Nashville at one of the uh NAMM shows and listening to an audio engineering panel and bringing this up afterward to the guy you know it was an all male session. So I go up and I try to raise the question you know, what about 432?. And then he really rudely just said well, where's my tinfoil hat? So I knew that discussion was done. You know, number one, you're a woman, and number two, oh, you must be crazy.

Michelle Qureshi: 30:00

So I mean it's not a new idea, Like it was just, I think I mean maybe someone can correct me, but I think it was just in the 20th century that the 440 was established as the you know the, what do you call that? The standard? Yeah, but before I mean, and you know, around the world, that's. That concept is also a little bit crazy. I mean, you go to Indonesia and every gamelan orchestra is just tuned to that village's sense of, uh, what works, and I, I love those sounds, I mean that is, and uh, you know, then we leave even just the western scales, uh, when you start talking about different tunings.

Nick Grizzle: 30:50

So um ian, did you see a different response for different types of frequencies with people that you work with?

Ian Wilkerson: 31:01

Yes, absolutely. I think the most prevalent aspect of this in my work, for me and the people I work with, is that it's all individualized. I have a hard time, you know, fully grabbing onto that there's these rigid parameters for any one person's physiology or biometrics only because I've experienced such a spectrum with regards to how different frequencies and sounds impact different people I work with, and so I never try. I don't typically take it for granted. I typically assess, you know, what response am I observing or what response am I sensing with my intuition if I'm doing more energetic work, which I do do sometimes. So if I'm, you know I'm a breathwork coach as well. So I do a ton of breathwork with people where it's just all about the somatic and there's no expectation for engagement except their breath. And so when I'm working with somebody in their breath and I'm using tones or I'm using frequencies, or if I'm working with kiddos who have autism, or if I'm working with impulse control, or if I'm working in TBI for neurological development, I just experiment and I assess where the person is and what kind of response am I observing. What self-report are they giving me? Are they giving me feedback? Are they verbally saying that felt good. Are they telling me that it made them feel more anxious? Are they showing me that it made them feel more anxious? And then I recalibrate and I try to adjust what it is. I'm doing. So, if I start out with 440 or if I start out with 432, if I do an E flat exercise, I'm aware of those pitch prevalences, but I always adjust and adapt based on the feedback I'm getting. And the frequencies are so prevalent, though, and absolutely powerful, and I have a little thing of tuning forks and, again, I never went to the Sound Healing Institute and absolutely powerful, um, and I have, uh, you know, a little thing of tuning forks, and I'm, again, I never went to the sound healing Institute, uh, but I've done some conferences and I've, you know, the globe sound healing Institute and on in the Bay, I've, I've, I've, I've attended those seminars and, um, I love the work. But, um, that's how I approach the, the element of psychoacoustics and kind of the, the, the vibrational frequency awareness, as I assess and adapt. And then I just because you asked the question again, I'm not a research buff, but there is a paper I've referenced before and, you know, anybody can go online and search under the NIH website and there's a great survey. I just pulled it up right now so I could tell your listeners.

Ian Wilkerson: 33:36

There's a paper. It's a narrative review of research literature that maps the landscape of the mechanisms of the effect of sound vibration on humans, including the physiological, neurological and biochemical. And it's the name of the paper. It's a synthesis of all the research right. It was put out in 2021 and it's called the Possible Mechanisms for of sound vibration on human health. So if, like your listeners are like yo, I want to know more about how the neurology is being mapped and how is the body being measured, because you know we live in a very quantitative world now where everybody wants everything to be discreetly measured, which is not my forte. I'm like, totally process oriented and I'm all about being adaptable and I'm integrative, but we do want results and outcomes and insurance companies want to be able to justify payment. So these are prevalent measures to be aware of. Yep, so that paper.

Nick Grizzle: 34:37

I'm going to scope that out both for the podcast and personally later. I love diving into that research stuff and we'll throw that link in the show notes as well for anybody who wants to read it. Thank you for that, yeah.

Ian Wilkerson: 34:51

Can I add something personal, because I haven't spoken much about myself in terms of my own passion in my artist life. So I've been a recording artist my whole life, since I was 16. And you know, a lot of that has been electric. But just so for the sake of your listeners in this acoustic world, me and another dad it's been 10 years since I've put out a commercial release and all of my prior releases for the most part have been electric rock band, funk, jam rock, singer-songwriter. There's been a few acoustic numbers sprinkled in there, but it's been a lot of like jam band rock, pop stuff, right.

Ian Wilkerson: 35:29

And I'm super stoked to say that, like within the next month and a half I'm going to be dropping my first EP in 10 years and it's an acoustic duet recorded live, old school, no overdubs. We went in the studio and in four hours two dads sat face to face with pop screens and mics and acoustics, mic'd, four microphones and even a little telephone mic over on the side. That was like an old school telephone and we just recorded three songs without any redos and, uh, we both sing harmonies and we both play guitar and we're and it's it's like alternative rock, like inspired by, like you know sound garden and, like you know, owls and chains, kind of like the mtv unplugged era um the golden era.

Ian Wilkerson: 36:18

Dude like just oh my gosh, like that stuff hits my heart. But anyway, that is exciting. The name of the band is called Flow F-L-O-W.

Nick Grizzle: 36:29

Do you use techniques from your practice when recording your own music?

Ian Wilkerson: 36:33

I do. I'm very aware of my breath always. I'm always aware of trying to balance my parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. However, I spend a lot of time in my sympathetic nervous system. I'm always on, I'm on like I'm just always energized, right. So it's a life challenge for me, a lifelong lesson, to learn how to make space and slow down. And I slow down in my art when I'm making music and I slow down when I'm playing my acoustic and channeling creativity.

Ian Wilkerson: 37:08

And the thing that's the most beautiful thing about my experience in music making is when I write music. I don't. I songwrite often but I don't ever feel like I can lay ownership to it, like I might copyright it because I've got a mechanism through which I can and perhaps have some benefit to that. But like I don't, I really just channel. Like when I songwrite and I write my acoustic, I'm very aware of my breath.

Ian Wilkerson: 37:32

Before I go into the studio, I definitely breathe.

Ian Wilkerson: 37:35

I'll do some like nervous system reset, cal recalibration, things like breath of fire or you know, this is like a Kundalini or pranayama yoga practice where I'm like doing really rapid nose breathing or I'll do shoulder shrugs, you know stuff like that and and it's like it can be like a one-minute thing or a two-minute thing, where I just really burn myself out, but it's like and I'm oxygenating, hyper oxygenating my body, but it's like and I'm oxygenating, hyper oxygenating my body, but it's then afterwards I have that surrender of like, ah yeah, like after a good workout or after really good sex, or you know, like I mean, let's tell, let's tell it like it is right, like our bodies have biomechanical responses to experiences, right, so you know, but just really breathing deep and and then I definitely did that before recording this album and then, like, when we screwed up and we're like, oh man, we got to do another take, I definitely would like get up, walk around, breathe deep, just hold my guitar in my body for a moment and like not play it and just kind of connect with it.

Ian Wilkerson: 38:38

Yeah, I don't know if I went on too big of a tangent, but I said the S word on air, sorry.

Nick Grizzle: 38:44

And Michelle, how about you?

Michelle Qureshi: 38:46

Yes, absolutely, and you mentioned many of those things. Alternate nostril breathing is another really good centering one, you know, the breath of fire, relaxation, and one thing I have to do well, my studio is right in this other room and that's where I record, so it can be any time of day or night, as long as you know all the mowers and leaf blowers and all that BS is not out there on the street. So I do the recording in there. One thing I've really been just the last few months paying attention to is when you're recording, because, of course, in this situation I'm the engineer and I'm the you know producer and the performer, the composer, and my body can feel so tight, you know, when I'm playing, like, because it's not like, oh you know, I'm going over my budget. It's like I'm going over my ability to just focus and get this right, because I, like, when I record, I like to play straight through a piece. You know I don't have the kind of studio to do the magic, editing and slicing and all this stuff, but I've been lately been going through my body, especially from kind of like from your hips and your legs, just making sure those muscles are just, you know, loosened up, because that's where you know my feet are on the ground, on the floor and they're just like you know, they're just planted and you really, if I can at least just kind of move with the guitar and still not, you know, not get that wavering on the microphone, but I find that to be really important. I'm not always in that flow state when I'm recording. That's ideal. But there's just all those other factors, like you know. Is this mic, is there a hum in my, in this cable again, or, you know, did I get the high enough signal, and and that kind of thing. So I'd like to take more relaxation during the process. You know we can do all the prep we want before the process, but we need to carry that through so that just that magic can happen in the performance. So that's one thing.

Michelle Qureshi: 41:07

Ironically, as Ian is mentioning, he's been on pause for a decade with albums and he's usually doing electric guitar and this kind of stuff. Doing electric guitar and this kind of stuff. I, for the last 12 years, I have 14 albums out and a lot of singles, and acoustic guitar is real central to most of that work, to quite a bit of that work, and in June I'm releasing something that has so little acoustic guitar in it. It's not funny, you know. It's just like flip the narrative here on this, you know it's. It even has what's new for me. I'm even like doing beats on it and it's, it's really. I mean, I love it Because, you know, when I write a piece for guitar or piece comes through me, as you're saying, channeling, it is a lot of that.

Michelle Qureshi: 42:06

When a piece comes through for guitar, a lot of times it is more melancholic or you know, especially the nylon strings, to me they just have that tendency. And what I love about this new album is it's a lot of joyfulness and extended, extended joyfulness and just lighter, lighter hearted um, like a joyful piece on the guitar. For me it's still just a three minute experience, you know, and it's like, oh, that's pretty, but that's pretty short, you know. So this is going to be, uh, really an interesting um release for me and I wish you all the luck on on your release upcoming as well.

E.E. Bradman: 42:40

I love this discussion because, you know, before you guys got on, we were all hanging out and we were talking about, you know, music, healing music specifically. And I was asking. I was like there's a stereotype of healing music as mellow, kind of relaxing, kind of sleepy, and that's beautiful, there's room for that. And I just was thinking okay, so we have these two esteemed artists who've really done a lot of thinking about this and who really live this idea of healing music and healing through music, of healing music and healing through music, and I was like, is there something besides?

E.E. Bradman: 43:21

like very mellow 50 BPM acoustic stuff, so I love hearing everything you guys are saying.

Ian Wilkerson: 43:29

I just if I can say, like, so, absolutely true. So in my work as a music therapist it's all individualized and it's all about the client preferred repertoire. I'm not gonna come to some teenager who loves Lil Peep and XX10C on and be like, well, sorry, dude, today we're doing Garth Brooks and and, and we're gonna talk about how hard it is in Garth Brooks life because, you know, no, no, I'm gonna be like, what music do you like? And I've had a kiddo on the spectrum teenager, high functioning autism, and I'm doing music therapy with them. And we're doing skill acquisition and impulse control with Slayer and Motorhead. You know, and that's what calms his nervous system. He felt more regulated. For whatever reason, his physiology, his nervous system was like no, dude, don't play three little birds with me by Bob Marley. I don't want to hear that. But I love me some Motorhead.

Ian Wilkerson: 44:27

And so you know, I, you know, as a, as a, as a trained music therapist, I have to come to the table like a chameleon. I have to be able to go. I call myself, I'm a genre hopper, so I have to be able to, like, at the snap of a drop, be like, okay, motorhead, you know. And then the next moment, a half hour later, I'm working with somebody, or even in the same session they might be like well, now it makes sense for us to do something slow. So I have to really bend in between genres and when you're doing music healing through the act of stoking their interest and preference in terms of what turns them on and like what music they like yeah, all music is healing. It's what does they? What do they like?

Nick Grizzle: 45:04

Michelle, what do you think about that? The, the genre, uh, you know, doesn't have to be defined as as a genre but, like healing music, can be individualized yes, definitely it can.

Michelle Qureshi: 45:16

just in genres themselves, right? They're just like marketing tools, you know, and we have to abide by them. You know, you're putting your piece on Spotify. You've got to choose a genre, whether or not it has anything to do with the music. So that's a very limiting thing. All music has potential to heal.

Michelle Qureshi: 45:38

All music delivers what it needs to uh, as you, as you listen, for the most part, I mean, there's a, there's a experience of listening to something to process feelings that you can't process without it. You know, and it gets you through that A lot of times. That can happen with, uh, you know, liking to listen to something that's a little more uh, what could be called sad, and it feels good because you're processing that. Now, to my husband, he would be like I don't want to hear that sad stuff, and I think he's just, you know, he doesn't want to process it at the moment. It's fine, I'll listen to koali with him, which we also love, and uh, which is a great thing.

Michelle Qureshi: 46:23

So I, I think, you know, even in my own stuff, like before I did any recording, I was making music here at home and bringing it to a yoga studio of a friend and she was like you really need to make an album and it was much more like the music you were describing being, you know, 60 beats per minute and calm and you know. But things have evolved so much from them just with music in this genre in general and in specifically, as I've just confessed, in my kind of music. I mean, I think about eight years ago I released an album called Flow, which was really kind of more world music, but did I have the audience for that? I don't know. I mean, there's some of those sitting Now that Spotify has decided to cut us off from royalties with anything less than a thousand streams. There's a couple things sitting below that. But you know, it's still. It's still cool music, it's still part of my path and I think it still delivers authentic stuff, authentically for me.

Ian Wilkerson: 47:33

You said it was called Flow.

Michelle Qureshi: 47:34

Yeah, I just mentioned it because you mentioned it.

Ian Wilkerson: 47:36

I love that.

Nick Grizzle: 47:37

My new band is Flow.

Michelle Qureshi: 47:38

Yeah.

Ian Wilkerson: 47:39

And it's like, and it's like, how amazing is it that you know there's all kinds of flow, right, there's not one flow, like you know, and I totally dip into the calm music and totally surrender to that and I and I experienced that all for my own self healing. But I also feel so much healing when I turn it up to 11 and go really loud and hard. You know, it's just like it depends on what I'm looking for.

Joey Lusterman: 48:07

That's the end of part one. Tune into part two for some wellness tools you can use in your guitar practice. You'll find that on our Patreon page at patreoncom. Slash acoustic guitar plus.