Throw out the elevator pitch and introduce yourself in all your brilliance

What's this episode about?
In this episode of The Disobedient Business Podcast, Pippa hosts a conversation with Ellie Kime, a personal branding copywriter specialising in helping small business owners articulate their value. 

Diving into the theme of 'Throwing out the ick elevator pitch, and introducing yourself in all your brilliance,' this episode is packed with advice for newbie business owners, particularly those building service-based businesses, navigating the early overwhelm of presenting their business. Ellie shares insights from her journey, emphasising the significance of genuine self-representation and moving beyond traditional, stagnant elevator pitches towards making meaningful connections. 

We also tackle some of the networking challenges and embrace personal quirks (like loving One Direction), and the importance of 'being yourself' in professional settings. We wrap the episode up with practical advice for novice business owners on crafting their introductions and using personalised communication in fostering some bangin' business relationships.

Key Points in this Episode
00:00 Welcome to the Disobedient Business Podcast!
01:10 The Art of Selling Yourself Without the Ick
01:39 Meet Ellie Kime: The Personal Branding Copywriter
03:39 Rethinking the Elevator Pitch: A New Approach
06:30 Networking in the Digital Age: Beyond the Elevator Pitch
21:24 Introducing Yourself with Brilliance
34:51 Final Thoughts and Where to Find Ellie

About Ellie
Ellie is a personal branding copywriter at Eleanor Mollie, helping small business owners find the words to explain who they are, what they do, and why they're so bloody good at it. When she asks you follow-up questions about your job or hobby, she genuinely means it. She's consulted for companies like NOTHS and Pinterest, and is currently obsessed with tiramisu.

Where to find Ellie
Instagram
Instagram 2 (because Ellie's so epic she has 2 IGs)
LinkedIn
Website - Ellie has given listeners of the Disobedient Business Podcast a wonderful gift of 15% off all her digital products (excl. Eleanor Mollie Money) just use the code DISOBEDIENT 🥳

🚨 BIG NEWS YOU GLORIOUS HUMANS 🚨
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Tickets available real soon, get on the VIP list and be the first to hear at disobedientbusinesslive.com

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Visit our website at disobedientbusiness.com

Come say hi at hello@disobedientbusiness.com

Come and chat on Instagram at @disobedientbusinessco

Transcript

Pippa: 0:30

Welcome back to the Disobedient Business Podcast. It is Pippa here and this week we are talking to the wonderful Ellie Kime. Ellie, welcome to the podcast.

Ellie: 0:43

Thank you very much. I really enjoyed the eyebrow raise that you did when you said disobedient. I didn't know that. I hope that's something you do every time. I'm excited to see if that tracks throughout the full episode.

Pippa: 0:53

Well, Jesus, that Botox really has worn off then. Must make that appointment again.

Ellie: 0:56

Just on the one side.

Pippa: 0:58

My eyebrows shouldn't, they shouldn't be raising. That's not okay.

Ellie: 1:01

It's not what we pay for.

Pippa: 1:03

No, absolutely not. No, actually, I haven't had Botox in years. So it's just the residual effect of my brilliance. Anyway, moving swiftly on. So, this week, we are talking about, Throwing out the ick, elevator pitch and introducing yourself in all of your brilliance. And it fits into the kind of bigger series for this, season of things that support newbie business owners, particularly service based business owners, when they're kind of struggling in those early days of overwhelm and actually getting it done and getting their business out there. But before we get into it, I feel like the listeners should get to know you a little better. So please tell us about yourself, who you are, what you do, what's your backstory. I mean you can go inside Leg Measurement if it makes you happy, anywhere you like.

Ellie: 1:48

I love this. What's your name and where did you come from question? hello, I am Ellie. I run Eleanor Molly, off air we were just having a conversation about how nobody actually calls me Eleanor in real life unless I'm in real trouble and my parents are divorced and one of them calls me Eleanor and one of them calls me Eleanor so that's a whole situation. but I am a personal branding copywriter who specialises in helping small businesses And small business owners and creatives talk about what they do and who they are what they do and why they deserve to get paid because I have got nearly decades of small business experience and there were so many brilliant people doing brilliant things but just not really selling themselves enough it's just one of those one of those weird things in life that you even you just don't you Because, you know, British female or non binary creatives, you know, there's all sorts of things going against us societally and why we don't talk about ourselves. and sometimes it's easy when somebody else gives you the words. So, it's basically, I'm just professionally nosy. Like sure, it's, it's useful for clients, but actually it serves me best because I just get to deep dive on people's businesses, ask them loads of questions about who they are and then just go away. What's the absolute con? It's great.

Pippa: 2:57

I've never heard copywriting put quite like that before and I think it's fantastic. Okay, awesome. I love this idea of being able to sell themselves and actually get them paid because I feel like in those earlier days the words are a real challenge. And, and I would even go so far as to say, If you've had a career or a job at work, whatever you've been doing that has meant that you wrote words for a living or you did, you had a degree in English or whatever it is you do, it's quite an eye opener when that doesn't just readily and very easily translate into writing, copy that actually helps you. sell things to people in your business. It's really, it's, that's, that's the whole interesting conversation in and of itself. But talking about the dreaded elevator pitch, now I can think back to 2015 when I was kind of first really getting into establishing my business and I'm not so sure I even really knew what an elevator pitch was having been corporate, corporate human for a very long time. I'd not, I'd not delivered, you know, who, who'd have to write an elevator pitch? How would it come up in conversation? And as soon as I kind of realized, I think it must have taken me the first four years of my business before I had anything that resembled something that I would happily either drop into conversation by way of an elevator pitch, which is something that again is very different to something that I might write first person, third person or otherwise on And the interesting thing is, in those four years, what the fuck are you going to do? Until you have got that figured out. So I would love to dig in with you and ask you for your thoughts on what do you think about the elevator pitch? Does it have a place? Does it not have a place? Is it a waste of time? Should we all be rushing out and spending four years trying to write one until it's quote unquote perfect? Just go there, heavy with it

Ellie: 4:52

My official party line is that if it takes you any less than four years, it's not good enough. That's, frankly, four years and one day, that's when you hit the really good stuff. It's like morning pages. Yeah, you just have to keep going again and again and again. no, I completely agree. I think there is still a time and place for an elevator pitch, but I think it's for a very specific type of business, and I'm going to hazard a guess that it is. the kind of business that is not listening to this kind of podcast. It's, you know, Dragon's Den or Shark Tank kind of businesses that, who are going for VC funding or angel funding or that kind of thing. it's not, it's, it, the whole premise was, it was the idea that you were going to be in a, literally in a lift, it's the reason it's called an elevator pitch. The idea was that you were going to be in a lift with like the head of Vogue or somebody, and that you're going to have 30 seconds as you traveled from the bottom floor to the top to pitch them and Get for them to just be like, yeah, I'll give you a million pounds or whatever. or I'll give you that connection to whoever, tell me the last time that I can't even tell you the last time I was in a lift, nevermind a lift with somebody who had a big important job. Like it just doesn't really happen anymore. so I don't think they really are necessary for, have you just remembered a lift story?

Pippa: 5:56

not at all. I was genuinely trying to remember the last time I was in a fucking lift and I can't. an escalator, possibly, but not a lift. An escalator's not quite the same, is it? Oi, mate,

Ellie: 6:05

Well, they don't call it an escalator pitch, do they? No, unfortunately, that doesn't count.

Pippa: 6:09

tag it on the back of your trousers? Excuse me, sir, can I talk to you?

Ellie: 6:12

Or somebody going down the down as you're going up the up like, excuse me, please, will you pay me?

Pippa: 6:15

And inevitably if the person's in front of you on the escalator and you're going up, you're kind of bollock level, aren't you? So that's not really the kind of conversation you want to have

Ellie: 6:22

Yeah, not ideal. No. And then you get neck cramp. Oh, it's a nightmare.

Pippa: 6:25

Yeah, on. So, 30 seconds and a lift.

Ellie: 6:28

Yeah, and it just doesn't happen anymore. so many more of our interactions are online now, as you say, are written down. but in person, I think we have really changed in the way that we network. And I actually think that nailing your elevator pitch alternative is a really great way to make networking feel less scary as well, because I would much rather walk into a room full of people I know I'm going to have genuine connecting conversations with, rather than people who are going to just try and pitch me with something that they're stumbling over, they don't even believe anymore. Or just a bunch of words that are just sounds coming out of their mouth for both of us. I'd rather actually find some common ground, and actually get to know people. Which sounds very like, let's all hold hands and braid each other's hair. But, I think it is the way to do it.

Pippa: 7:11

Shall we start a rousing round of kumbaya and sit cross legged on the floor?

Ellie: 7:15

grab my ukulele,

Pippa: 7:16

we should.

Ellie: 7:17

okay.

Pippa: 7:18

Please do. Yeah, I agree with you. And I haven't been to an in person networking event in a while. Well, not in the context of I've been to bigger events where there is networking involved, but I haven't been to an event where it's like, I don't know, 20 odd local people sit around the room and, you know. Then the cringeworthy, tell us about yourself in 30 seconds bit, which to all intents and purposes is the elevator bit, comes around. I dream of the day that I sit in a room like that and somebody is courageous enough around the table to kind of go, I don't do elevator pitches but I kind of do this for my business and I'd love to have a chat with you afterwards if you love dogs or just something that helps you set yourself apart from the, I am this person who does this thing for these people to achieve this effect. I'm bored already because I've heard a thousand of them. And it's just so stuffy and I don't know, nobody, particularly in those earlier stages in business, you're not sold on it yet anyway. you haven't really properly got to grips with it at all. Just being able to speak up in those situations takes every last amount of courage and muster that you can possibly grab, without having to roll off something that you thought you'd remembered and then halfway through it, you've forgotten half the fucking thing. And you're in trouble. Because then it just comes out as a HALALALALALA And I'm

Ellie: 8:36

we don't, you know, it's so often we trip over the words or because we're so scared about getting it right we do it so fast that it's actually unintelligible, or we get so terrified about saying it that we just say nothing at all, we skip our go, there's so, So many things wrong with the elevator pitch approach when actually, and still talking about your business and yourself and self promotion is terrifying. Like that's, it can be terrifying, but I do think, especially as you say in those earlier stages of business, saying it in a way that feels less like you're trying to immediately Doing an elevator pitch kind of feels like you're taking somebody with a gun to the head to a cash machine and being like, I would like your money now. That's the vibe an elevator pitch gives to me. Whereas I would rather, call me crazy, I would rather just be like, Hey, exactly as you said, I like dogs. Let's chat. We might have something in common. it feels a lot less transactional, but you know, in, in that will probably result in a better transaction in the end. If that's something that works, it's Yeah, and also nobody even likes doing elevator pitches anyway, even the people that you say that do them at these networking events. They're not doing them thinking, I've, I've captured the room here. Everyone's thinking, God, they want to talk to me. They're just thinking, Oh God, I wish we could do something different than elevator pitches. Like everybody is thinking it. And as you say, there's just needs to be the one person that's like, Hello, actually, I couldn't care less about the corporate shit.

Pippa: 9:50

Yeah, I just, if, could, could someone not just say that at the beginning of that

Ellie: 9:55

Yeah.

Pippa: 9:56

the pain, right?

Ellie: 9:57

Yeah.

Pippa: 9:58

one thing I'd love to get into here with, because, undoubtedly, folks, as you're listening, you're probably thinking, well, they're going to get into unpacking what we could do instead at some point in time, surely, because otherwise, you've just told me not to do an elevator pitch, but

Ellie: 10:09

The rest is up to you.

Pippa: 10:10

However, Yeah, I was going to say, buh bye, it's been a great episode. Ha ha. what I would really, really love to do is kind of almost break down that, and I ran through it really, really quickly a minute ago, but you're definitely the professional copywriter for the two of us, so I feel like this is one for you. Those elements of what would have been in your elevator pitch, the kind of who I do it for and why I do it and what have you, so that we can then kind of segue into, well, how can you weave that kind of stuff into genuine human connection as well. Almost like for those of us that are quite keen on a bit of a tick list in the back of our brains, it's like, yep, I've managed to get this in. Yep, I've got that in. But in a kind of way that doesn't make you feel like a robot that's reading off some kind of revision cards from your A level

Ellie: 10:53

Yep. Oh god, flashcards, what a throwback. I, my Facebook memories came up the other day and it was like my revision timetable and I had a literal full body chill. I was just like, no thank you, absolutely not. Tickle

Pippa: 11:05

are definitely highlighting the difference in our ages, Ellie.

Ellie: 11:10

So the first thing obviously is your name. that's the first thing that people go, go with generally in an elevator pitch. and yeah, who you work for. This is an interesting one though, because I think if you're self employed and you run your own business, often people forget to say their own business name. They say, I'm Ellie and I am blah, blah, blah. But if your business name isn't your, your name, and they, so generally people say their job title, which again, isn't all that helpful sometimes. and they kind of, it's, it's, That's generally it. Sometimes if you're a more experienced elevator pitcher, people will say kind of who, kind of go into a bit more about what their job entails, who it's for, what they do, but kind of with the, through the lens of how it will help people in the room and then, you know, you're really smarmy, slick. networkers will say, and I'm here today to talk about blah blah blah, and I would love to chat to anybody about, or here's the areas I can help with, or that kind of thing. that's generally what, what they contain.

Pippa: 12:12

Yeah, agreed, absolutely. business name is an interesting one because I just went by my own name for many many years and so therefore business name was kind of irrelevant but I have to remind myself now if I'm ever, not, not that I can't, I can't remember the last time I did a pitch in an elevator or otherwise but I'm not in that kind of context anyway. But yeah, it's just the awkward moment of CEO and founder of the Disobedient Business Co. It's like, it makes me just want to go, I don't want to have to call myself CEO and founder. That's like,

Ellie: 12:42

lucky in that we've got quite unusual names. Like, we would probably be fine to not say our name, to not say our business names. And if, if the people we were speaking to Googled Ellie Keim or Pippa Parfait, that you, you know, they'd probably land on us. they might land on like a One Direction blog I had in 2015 first, but they'll get there eventually. but, yeah. I think it does, I feel exactly the same. And especially'cause obviously you've got Lucy as well. I feel even IIA as, because I am the only, so I am CEO founder, everything of Eleanor, Molly.'cause it just is me. So it, it does feel like an awkward thing, but I've really had to, to train myself to get over it. To, to say, and I run Eleanor, Molly, because, yeah, then otherwise it just, it just helps. It's SEO in real life, isn't it? I-R-L-S-E-O, that's what it is.

Pippa: 14:21

Nice. That's an interesting take. Okay. So, with all of that being said, if we are not going to polish, well, the turd, to all intents and purposes, if we're not going to polish an elevator pitch and, turn up like some kind of automaton and reel out this script that we've, you know, with, I, I, I've come, I say I've come across clients that I've worked with, but I've done this myself many, many years ago, right? I've like had a Google document with 17 different versions of the elevator pitch, you know, in order to which, which one am I going to roll out, depending on the circumstances of the meeting or whatever. And it's like, for the love of all God. but knowing at the crux of it for me, that with very, very few exceptions, all of the folks that I've worked with that are newbie business owners, and of which we worked with many over the years, the thing that most folks lack. is not just the copywriting skills, the messaging skills, etc. that are needed, that you can 100 percent develop over time, but you don't, you don't, you don't get imbued on them the day that you decide to start a business, right? Nobody comes along with a copywriting magic fucking wand and goes, here we go, now you're a professional copywriter.

Ellie: 15:31

Now you can word good.

Pippa: 15:33

yes, word good. and the second part of that is lacking the the courage and the confidence to be able to say those things. It doesn't really make any difference whether it's an elevator pitch or otherwise. Being able to be in that situation, you stand a very tiny weeny percentage chance of that going well in those really, really early days because you're not sold on yourself first, you're not confident in what it is you're sharing, and dear god, you're papping yourself in that room. Or in that environment, wherever it is you are. And quite rightly, because you're a human being, right? And why would you not be? So, I'm really curious, I'm hoping that you have the same, I'm hoping, for everyone listening, Porelli is now right on the spot, because I'm hoping now there is an absolutely brilliant solution to what to do instead of feeling like you've got to turn up like that at automaton and pitch in that elevator. So what would you do instead?

Ellie: 16:32

Well, firstly, try and find rooms that aren't like that. That would be my first suggestion. I really think, like, the small online business world is brilliant in that it's now the networking vibes are different. so I, I, and obviously that is dependent on what your business is. If your business is very local and is still quite dependent on like, you know, I don't know, the council or, or local networking events, chances are you probably are still going to have to do a bit of those networking events. but my first one would be, would be trying to find somewhere where the vibe is not like that. and my, my second one, which is kind of redundant, if that's not possible, but it's worth, worth saying anyway, I think, my second one, I think would be to just really treat it as a, not a market research exercise, because obviously when you're new, you need to be getting, you know, the funds in as soon as possible, but to just remember that your life won't end if you cock up your elevator pitch. Also, you can preface it by saying, I'm so sorry, this is the first couple I've been to, like, I'm still fairly fresh. Anybody who thinks that's embarrassing, that you haven't nailed your elevator pitch three events in, is a monster. I'm gonna call a spade a spade. so I think just being really open and honest about it. Yeah. Both with yourself and with the people you're speaking to, is the way to solve, or not solve, but to kind of get around that issue, what's, was that what you were, have I, what was your

Pippa: 17:51

Mmm. No, no, no, absolutely not. No, I think that's great. I completely agree with you.

Ellie: 17:55

I panicked when you put me on the spot, so I was, I was, you know when you know something's right, but then in the back of your head you're like, is it? Have I completely missed the mark here? So that's good to know. Yeah,

Pippa: 18:08

podcast, if ever, with a podcast guest, knowing what I thought the answers were, you know, because quite apart from anything else. Every single time I've had a chat with somebody on one of these podcasts, regardless of whether it's about stuff that's intended for new folks or established folks or disobedient folks, whatever the deal is, I learned something new or I look at something in a slightly different way. So. Yeah, no. No such thing as right or wrong answers. So, I love what, I mean, a thousand percent I love the, if you fuck it up, the world will not end. And anyone that sat there judging you is an absolute bastard. Because every single one of those people has been there before, and every single one of those people made a complete shit of it the first time around as well. So, it's like people that curse and swear at loaner drivers. Come on, give them a break.

Ellie: 18:53

exactly. And I think it's just what we need to be commending instead is, putting yourself out there. It doesn't matter if you, you know, you're not there. Progress is better than perfection or done is better than perfect or all of those phrases and it is simply and this is not what people want to hear and I am sorry that this is the case because believe me I searched high and low for an alternative unfortunately it's just a muscle that gets better with time it is just something that kind of gets stronger the more you do it and you will one day hopefully look back on your first networking event be like oh my god I was so scared and now I just go to them on a random Thursday you know it's it does just the more you do it the easier it gets which is They're the worst ones because that's not helpful. I say trying to help you on a podcast.

Pippa: 19:37

No, it's really interesting, isn't it? And plot twist, folks, if this is the, however many episodes you're in to listening to this particular series of the podcast, uh, gist of everything, and we can summarise most of the series for you at this point, is It's hard to start off with. You don't know very much about anything apart from the thing that you're really, really good at, which is the thing that you want to sell, whether it's a product, service or otherwise. and the path of getting to be good or knowing more is not lots of freebies. It's not lots of courses. It's not lots of any of the above. It's time. And I would probably go so far as to suggest also support. Particularly, partly with those specialist skills and things like that, what you do Ellie. And also partly with the, the courage and the care of yourself and the supporting you. Not because you need the right words or the perfect words and what have you in the elevator pitch, but because you need to be working on how good you feel about yourself, how good you feel about turning up and talking about your business. And there is some merit to being able, you know, some not merit, some evidence to being able to fast track a little bit of the shit at the beginning. If you actually spend more time working on that than you do at polishing all of the other things. You know, how comfortable you are with people just being able to turn up and go, you know, I haven't got an elevator pitch, they're really not my deal. But you know, I'm Pippa and I love working with business owners that do X, Y, and Z. I also love dogs. I've got two cats. Anyone wants to have a chat with me, here I am. if that's gonna fit, if you can get to the point where that feels comfortable, you've like achieved nirvana,

Ellie: 21:21

Yeah definitely. It's self promotion is such a strange thing when you're when you're self employed because you backed yourself in what you do enough to quit your business or to to quit your job sorry and start up full time or start it part time or whatever you you believe that you could do it and yet when it comes to training. having to talk about what you do, you suddenly think, oh well I can't do this, I can't, I, I'm terrible at it, I'm the world's worst person, who am I to think about it? And it's like, well if you did think that you wouldn't have left your job, started this job, you know, whatever. it's a really funny thing that we do where we think simultaneously we're good enough to do it professionally but not good enough to tell anyone about it, which is not how businesses work unfortunately. Again, learnt that the hard way.

Pippa: 22:03

back in five years ago, that would be what one might call a tweetable moment, wasn't it? You're good enough to do this, but you're not good enough to tell anyone about it. I feel like we should have a tweet this tag at the bottom of this podcast episode. Do you remember them? They were hilarious.

Ellie: 22:16

Use the hashtag, Elon Musk is a cunt.

Pippa: 22:18

So, I'm curious, and I realise this might be re going over things that we've talked about already, but, Introducing yourself in all of your brilliance. That's a phrase that I have very much stolen from Your Good Self. Talk to me about what you mean by that. So this doesn't necessarily have to be in the context of, I turned up at a networking event and went, Hi, I'm Pippa, I'm this. What do you mean when you talk about, introduce yourself and all your brilliance?

Ellie: 22:43

We, so, first of all, I love this question, so thank you for asking it. I feel like one of those film stars. Do you follow Kevin McCarthy on TikTok? He's like a film interviewer and routinely he just posts clips of celebrities being like, nobody's ever asked me that question in like 50 years of filmmaking. Thanks so much. So in my nearly a decade of copywriting, Pippa, nobody's ever asked me that question. Thank you so much. but I do love it.

Pippa: 23:04

You are so welcome. And now I'm banned from TikTok, so I do not follow Kevin McCarthy on TikTok.

Ellie: 23:08

in, as in by the TikTok powers or by your loved ones?

Pippa: 23:11

Uh, no, by my loved ones, because it's a problem.

Ellie: 23:13

Okay. Okay. Either way, pretty impressive. But I was like, wow, there's some tea here that I don't, there's some lore that I don't know about. But okay, fine.

Pippa: 23:21

No, trust me, I've not done anything quite that bad, but we do have a very amusing situation where Lucy still sends me, because I still have a TikTok account, but it's all uninstalled and so on. So Lucy, for those listening, partner in crime in the business, Lucy Parfait, sends me, oh and also Eldest Spawn for context, sends me TikToks to my account, fairly frequently because they are sent on TikTok. and I'm only allowed to see them because they want me to see them. And so whenever I see Lucy, I have to scroll through Lucy's outbox in TikTok and catch up with the TikToks that they've sent me.

Ellie: 23:54

so heartwarming. I love that for both of you. That's actually really lovely. It is ridiculous, but it's also wholesome, I would say. And the best things are both of those things, so, Yeah, Yeah, they're editing it for you, that's lovely. That's a real act of love.

Pippa: 24:08

But anyway, back to introducing yourself and all of your brilliance and the question you've never been

Ellie: 24:11

Yes, so that, that is all around one of the, like, fundamental tenets that I have in all of my copywriting, which is that personal doesn't mean not professional, or professional doesn't mean you can't be personal as well. I really, truly believe that we can be personable and professional at the same time, and it doesn't make you any less professional. it's something that's been drummed into us by everything, by society, capitalism, the patriarchy, you know, all the drill, it's been drummed into us that we can't show any personality in business and actually our personality is our biggest asset or one of our biggest assets, if not our biggest, when we're, working for ourself or, or in a small team. so introducing yourself in all of your brilliance is, is kind of a nod to that of just that you can show up as your full self and not hide any of who you are and, yeah, be who you really want to be. Whether that's swearing, or talking about One Direction all the time, or, you know, there's so many ways that you can do that, that online gurus off of Yore would probably advise you against. But, especially in a context of trying to connect with new clients, it's a great way of finding your people. It's a real shortcut, it's a lightning bolt to finding your people. And it's crazy that for so long we've been told that we shouldn't do that. It's like, well, I don't want the people that don't want that. And they, they won't want me. We're not going to have a good customer, container time if, if they don't like swearing. I follow a lady on LinkedIn who, She does SEO stuff, she's called Nikki Pilkington, she's brilliant, and her company said to her the other day that they would work with her if she removed wanky from her LinkedIn headline because she said that she does SEO for non wanky businesses. And she was like, well, no, because that's the reason it's there, like, that is a very good cut and dry way of saying that you're not right for me. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of what it is.

Pippa: 25:52

example. Also, I'm picking up a slight One Direction thing now, because that's possibly the third time that you've mentioned One Direction today. Did we perhaps have a little bit of a thing when we were

Ellie: 26:02

Oh, we had a, oh, we had a massive thing. Yes, we did. And we still do actually. I don't know why I'm talking about it as if it's past tense. still going very strong. but those, you know, and those are, which is, I, I do. Do I do it for effect? I'm not sure I do. I've made it part of my brand, which is easy, because then if I ever feel like I've overdone it, I'm like, oh yes, I'm doing it for effect, haha. But genuinely, it is something that is very central to who I am, to when I started my business, in the same way that High School Musical is. And, you know, there are references that, if you know, You know, and those are people that really, kind of, I resonate with. Which is not to say that everyone who works with me has to be a One Direction fan, obviously, but it's it just shows the side of me that's not Ellie the copywriter, it shows the side of me that's Ellie the fangirl, Ellie the person, Ellie the music lover, debatably, depending on your views on One Direction, who, and all of that goes into informing how I work, who I work with, and and how I

Pippa: 26:55

Yeah. And I asked that, you see, there we go, there's a, it's gonna make sense now. Firstly because I'm interested, but also secondly because that's what we're talking about, people. What Ellie just said there, that's what we're talking about. So it almost doesn't matter whether you like One Direction or otherwise. It doesn't matter whether or not you like High School Musical or otherwise. It doesn't matter, like me, if it was actually your kids that were raised on One Direction and High School Musical. Fuck my life. It matters, I have watched it, but reluctantly, it matters that it connects with the people that matter. And if you are a relatively new, service based business owner in the current climate, so you might be a coach, consultant, copywriter, graphic designer, instructional designer, you know, you name it, myriad folks out there, you are pitching up in a very, very noisy marketplace. Now, that isn't a negative thing. That does not mean that there is not a place for you, but it does mean that the complete opposite. to the advice given to you by the Pale Stale Male Brigade, of don't stand out, don't be a tall poppy, make sure that you've got something that's nice and homogenous and let's make it grey and so on and so forth, isn't gonna cut it anymore. Now that doesn't mean swearing, gratuitously just because you think that might get attention. swear like a navvy, as probably you've noticed in this podcast. But if you jump on a call with me or you become a client of mine, you'll know that I don't swear any more or any less on the podcast than I do in a call, than I do in a group call, than I do in my copy, than I do in any anything. Because I write and speak and coach and teach as I am. and therefore what you see is what you get. And it doesn't matter whether that's my swearing or our disobedience as a company, or whether that's Ellie's One Direction, or the way Ellie approaches copywriting, People need to see those things, and having the courage to be able to show them. is what sets you apart from other people, as opposed to feeling like you need to somehow conform. The one in the coaching circles is probably either conforming to the all neutrals, minimalistic, visual vibes of, you know, plants in the background and all the rest of it, or you've got to go boho, beach, chic. They're, they're the two, and the language that matches those two, visual identities and what have you. well, why? Why would you do that if that's what 90 percent of people are doing?

Ellie: 29:22

hmm. It is, it is, it's a really weird, this whole thing is full of kind of paradoxes slash Ouroboros snakes eating their own tail because this is so true and weirdly one of the things that made me feel better about talking about myself was being myself, which feels like it should be the opposite. It feels like to make yourself feel better about talking about yourself you should change who you are and then you'll be somebody else. But actually realising that, you know, there are 8000 copywriters out there and I truly do believe that you can, in a business context anyway, you can be an excellent writer for yourself. A lot of people do not need copywriters, I truly believe that. and so the market out there is incredibly, saturated. But I, you know, hand on heart know somebody could write the exact same words as me, possibly out there in a very similar possible world, but they wouldn't be doing it in the same way that I do. They wouldn't give the exact same kind of experience. you know, that I do, they wouldn't have the same references that I do. and that gave me some, some weird comfort, because I was like, well, I'm not, you know, I physically can't do any more than I am already doing, so I've just got to make the best of what I'm doing, rather than, as you say, kind of doing it for a different reason, and then when, if it falls flat, you, you end up wishing you'd taken one plant away and put a giant foam middle finger up instead, or something, don't you?

Pippa: 30:38

I've got on the list to have life size, I say life size, and that's life size. Like giant sized middle finger statue made at some point in time. It's become such a part of the brand now. So much so, I don't know whether you can see it in the background of my video, I don't know. But there's a pair of sunglasses up there that a client sent to me that are bright gold, above me here.

Ellie: 30:57

Oh yes, yeah, yeah.

Pippa: 30:57

that are two lenses with two massive great big old middle fingers on the top of them.

Ellie: 31:01

Gorgeous.

Pippa: 31:03

They look a little bit like penises from a distance but they're not, they're middle fingers.

Ellie: 31:05

I love that so much. What a hero.

Pippa: 31:08

They're fabulous. I have, I have yet to wear them on a call but, maybe one

Ellie: 31:11

You need I was going to say a brand shoot, but a call would actually be better, especially a client, like a vibe check call with a new client, just to see if you if you see just if they if you turn up with middle finger glasses on and they they don't say anything about it, like they don't think it's weird, that is when you know that that's a friendship for life.

Pippa: 31:26

Yeah, it is. And to be quite honest with you, I don't, most of them would be just like, that's the least weird thing that you've done

Ellie: 31:31

like, yep, so? And you'd be like, great, okay.

Pippa: 31:33

Yeah, and? Excellent. Let's just move on then. So, any last thoughts around, If you skipped back to starting again and being right back at the beginning and you were starting your service based business and you were kind of right. Okay, so I've gotta nail my niche, I've gotta nail my ideal client. I've got a got all that stuff that, you know, if you sign up to certain celebrity, how to build a business programs, I'm not gonna name them because. slander and all that, that's exactly what they're going to tell you, you know, tick this off, tick that off, do the other. So if we settle that to one side for the moment, when it comes to, getting yourself out there and being able to talk about your business, what would be, what would be your sagest of advice that you would give people?

Ellie: 32:20

I would say, have a think about what to say. you, the way you want to describe what you do, because there are so many ways you could go about it. You could go about your job title, but for example, so a lot of people who aren't particularly familiar with the term copywriter think I work in IP law, so I very quickly realised, as in like working with copyrights, so I very quickly realised that, just describing myself as a copywriter and that being my full explanation wasn't going to cut the mustard. think about, so some ways you could think about that is like how you spend your day to day. how you help your clients, like the, the, well, the transformation in inverted commas that you help people with. and if that's too hard to think about what you help them avoid, that's another way around it. thinking about if you have a special approach, that's something it's just, I think lots of, and then when you, you know, have a brainstorming session of these or whatever, when you come up with them to kind of try and see which ones fit, which ones feel good, which ones feel like a really natural extension of talking about yourself. And don't feel beholden to one either. I think that's a really key thing. Just have a few that you like to choose from depending on the, you know, the, whether it's a women in business meeting or whether it's a northern business meeting or any of those things. and also I would say have an answer for tell me a fun thing about yourself, because that is one of the worst questions ever. we just need to rethink what's fun because what people want, what they actually mean by that question is we need a conversation starter, we want an icebreaker, or we want people to realise that we're not just corporate machines. So actually, let's think about what that question actually means and nobody's expecting, like one of my school friends had breakfast with Prince Harry in year nine and I'm like, I wish that was me because that would be a great fun fact. No, you've got to come up with something else. And people aren't expecting, it's actually quite intimidating if, if somebody else in the room responds with something amazing because it's just like, well, none of us wanted to go anyway, but we really don't want to go now. So having one in your back pocket for that, that you feel comfortable talking about is another piece of advice, I would say. Sensational. Okay.

Pippa: 34:19

I have two, and I don't know if I should disclose these on the podcast, but one of them is I was interviewed by the

Ellie: 34:25

of you

Pippa: 34:27

toilets, in a pontins, dressed as Frida from ABBA. And the second was in my early twenties, There is, for anyone that knows London, in Soho there is a big archway in the entry to Soho and then if you're walking down the main walkway, there's a little titchy pub on the corner before you kind of feed off into the various other corners. I was very, very drunk in my early twenties working in the city, with some guys that I'd never met before that evening and got dared to, street naked from the pub down to the archway at the end of Soho and back again and did that. Hmm. What, half naked and dressed as

Ellie: 35:10

exactly. Singing, knowing me, knowing you. Wigged and booted.

Pippa: 35:14

Ah Well this went in a different direction to what I expected.

Ellie: 35:20

It went the exact way that conversations with me often do, so I apologise.

Pippa: 35:23

No, no, please, absolutely no apology needed. God, if, if you listened to half the podcast you listened to there, just you fight to have to get to the end, at least we, we will have, we will have allowed a few people to spit their coffee out at least on a couple of occasions in their car listening

Ellie: 35:36

KPI I measure myself against. It's how much coffee can be spat based on something I say. That's what

Pippa: 35:41

Yes. Yeah.

Ellie: 35:42

like for me.

Pippa: 35:44

Add it to the list. So, listen, just this has been a wonderful conversation. Let me, ask you if you would share with us anything that you've got going on right now, anything that you'd like to, promote to folks, and where they can find you on the fun online business world, should they like to come and say hi.

Ellie: 36:00

Yes, of course. so my website is elinormollie. co. uk. I'm on threads and Instagram, elinor underscore molly. you can always pop me an email, all my contact details there. I love to chat to people. I was going to say in real life, email isn't real life, obviously, but you know what I mean? Have actual conversations with people rather than automated DMs. and I have a digital shop on elinormollie. co. uk. So I took my signature service, which is a one to one kind of, copy suite where you get every, all of the things we've discussed kind of written for you. for people who don't want to make kind of a bigger investment or aren't at the stage where that's necessary, I've broken down that, the way I work into loads of different bits. So there's like, you can get the prompts that I ask and use them as kind of like journaling prompts or, there are a couple of workshops on there to, to focus on particular introductions that you want to make in certain situations. so yeah, that's ellenamollie. co. uk forward slash shop.

Pippa: 36:49

Absolutely wonderful. and just to clarify for everybody, it's Molly M O L L I

Ellie: 36:54

Oh yeah. It is, yep, because I'm named after my grandma but she was named after a horse and hers was with a Y and she hated it. So my parents are like, well, we'll just do an IE.

Pippa: 37:03

So they were like, Not the horse? Sure. Sure. That's, that's, I mean, it's hopefully a totally reasonable expectation. Yeah, nice. Cool. Well, it's been an absolute, it's been an absolute treat, my friend. Thank you for joining us today. that is all we have time for this week folks. join us again next week for more disobedient business and fucking with the status quo. We will see you next Tuesday