Voices in the Dark: Elevating Women in Horror with author Lindy Ryan

Lindy Ryan, anthologist and horror author, discusses her debut horror novel Bless Your Heart, which explores themes of family, loss, and confronting monsters. She also discusses the intricacies of bringing an anthology to market.

Key Discussion Points:

Writing as Therapy: Ryan shares the personal beginnings of her writing journey, using her narratives as a means to cope with the loss of her grandmothers and to celebrate the women in her family.

Anthology Curating: The process of assembling an anthology is detailed, highlighting the logistical challenges and creative fulfillment it brings, alongside tips on managing contributions from multiple authors.

Women in Horror: A discussion on the historical underrepresentation of women in the horror genre and the positive shifts towards inclusivity and diversity, as well as horro sub-genres like f 'cozy horror'.

Transition to Screen: Insights into the adaptation of literary works into films and TV, underscoring the need for flexibility and openness to reinterpretation in the screenwriting and production processes.

Empowering Women Writers: The importance of community and mentorship among women in horror is emphasized, encouraging female authors to engage and support each other in the genre.

The episode concludes with a message of solidarity and encouragement for women navigating the horror genre, advocating for community engagement and mentorship. Listeners are encouraged to explore Ryan's work, Mother Knows Best, a newly released anthology perfect for Mother's Day.

Mentioned Links:
- Lindy Ryan's website
- Bless Your Heart on Amazon
- Mother Knows Best anthology on Amazon

Transcript

Beth McMullen: 0:30

Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen, I'm Lisa Schmid and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season three, episode 20. And today we are excited to welcome Lindy Ryan to the show. Lindy is an award-winning author and anthologist. She's the current author in residence at Rue Morgue, the world's leading horror culture and entertainment brand, and the Chilquill columnist at Booktrip. In 2020, lindy was named a Publisher's Weekly Star, watch Honoree, before being named one of horror's most masterful anthology curators and a champion for women's voices in horror.

Beth McMullen: 1:05

Her debut horror mystery series starter, bless your Heart, is available now from Minotaur Books. So welcome, lindy. We're super excited to have you here today. Thank you so much for having me. So I want to talk a little bit, before we jump into our questions, about Bless your Heart, which just came out April 9th and is doing gangbusters Audience. If you have not checked out this book, please go and do that because it looks super fun. I was looking at the book on Amazon and I read the Rachel Harrison blurb, which is this a gloriously gruesome, compulsively readable debut that is as grisly as it is clever and heartfelt, and I was like, okay, I'm in. I love that. It just sounds like it's hitting all the marks. So can you tell us a little bit about the book and how you came to write it?

Lindy Ryan: 1:57

Sure.

Lisa Schmid: 1:58

I'll say that Rachel Harrison has a way with words, doesn't she? She is fantastic. You know, bless your Heart started. I always kind of tell this story. It started as a therapy exercise.

Lisa Schmid: 2:08

You know, I lost both of my grandmothers kind of recently when I started writing it, so it was a way for me to kind of let them go and be with them just one more time. And so I started writing this story about these four generations of women and because I'm a monster girl through and through, I was like let's have them, you know, deal with some monsters. And it just kind of took on a life of its own. You know, through the course of the book, very much inspired by my family members and my hometown and the people and the characters and the history of that setting, and you know, it just kind of grew and ended up being this wonderful moment for me with my family, as well as a way to introduce, I mean, my best memories of them to readers inside a new world of their own creation. So it's very personal but also very detached.

Lisa Schmid: 2:55

At this point you kind of have to readers inside a new world of their own creation. So it's very personal but also very detached at this point. You kind of have to at some point stop seeing characters as you know, people that you're, you know, inspired by or based upon. Let them live their own lives. So, yeah, that's a little bit about the book, how it came to be, and now it's just off marching on its own monster slaying path. Are you currently working on the sequel? I am actually finishing final edits on the sequel as we speak. So it's coming April next year and I'm very excited.

Beth McMullen: 3:26

That is great. How many do you have in the pipeline? Do you know? Or did you say, okay, I'm going to do three and then I'm going to reassess.

Lisa Schmid: 3:33

I don't know moment. You know it started off as one book and then we decided to do three, and then I'm going to reassess I don't know moment. You know it started off as one book and then we decided to do two, and now we're looking at the next and the next, and so I think this series will live on as long as the Evans women do and as long as readers find connection inside that matriarchy. And I'll keep writing as long as they have a story to tell.

Beth McMullen: 3:53

That's great. I'm super excited. I ordered my copy because I read the little blurb and I read the description and I was like, oh yeah, this is the kind of book that I love to read. So I'm very excited to read it. And, of course, congratulations on the release. And actually I think we are super flattered that, because you were at the end of writing the second one and getting all that stuff done, that you took the time to come and talk to us, because we know what it's like to be in that kind of rush to finish.

Lisa Schmid: 4:23

So very cool. No, thank you. It's actually really inspiring for me to get through final edits and be able to talk about the book and about the story and about the world. It gives me some momentum and excitement to, you know, get through the nitty gritty of the editing process right. Always the best part of writing a new book is the end letter, so it's perfect timing. Really, that's great.

Lindy Ryan: 4:47

So why don't we jump into the first question and this is, it's funny, because we were looking for, we were interested in anthologies like how do they come about? How do they? You know, how does one person curate all these, these stories from all these different authors? And also the mechanics behind, how it gets put together from a logistical point of view, from, like, the publisher to managing all the agents that are involved in this process. Because I was, like I was originally, a couple of years ago, asked to write a short story for an anthology and then it never came about. And then I finally reached out and I'm like, hey, whatever happened, he's like oh, it's just too complicated, there's just too many spinning wheels and too many hands in the pie. And he's like we just we never, it never even went on sub. So really curious, like I know that's a big question with a lot of answers, but maybe you can help us out.

Lisa Schmid: 5:46

I can try. I think it would take weeks to talk through anthologies and in any given day I'd probably have a different, different phone to pick. They're a lot of work, they're a tremendous logistical burden, but they are so wonderful when they're completed and they come together nicely. I mean I've done several. I have two coming out this year, one that just came out yesterday and one that comes out in September and they're both completely different experiences and completely different processes. So I think one of the things about curating anthologies is that it's kind of a new project every time and you certainly get on the momentum of how to deal with submissions or how to build a table of contents or if you're going to have all invited or all open or a mix, or if you're selling it on a proposal versus a completed project. So I think you have to start with some of those questions and then move from there.

Lisa Schmid: 6:43

When it comes to working with agents, most agents in my experiences don't get involved with anthology contracts because they're short story sales, so they're pretty simple word count sales, flat fee stuff, and a lot of agents don't get in the mix with that, since there's not a lot of things to think about down the road, but some do absolutely and, you know, want to keep an eye on, on making sure that you know their authors, that they represent, are signing on to reputable anthologies, and that's one of, I think, the biggest. I don't know if it's a challenge, but one of the biggest things to think about is who is your editor and who is your publisher. Can they really handle an anthology? And that tends to be a defining point. A lot lately is who is the editor and who is the publisher and can they support the authors and and and the story process? And it's a tremendous effort because you're dealing with, you know, 20 to 30 stories or pieces of content that need to work together tonally and thematically without sounding like the same thing over and over again. So you want every story to be, you know, a strong, independent woman on her own in the anthology, but play well with others and really come together as a whole.

Lisa Schmid: 7:58

And that's the hardest part I think about curating or shaping an anthology is making sure every story shines on its own but becomes part of a whole, so that a reader has the you know has an experience of a book reading, not of a short story reading. So there's a tremendous amount of mechanics that go into it, and I think the first step is deciding what do you, you know, what kind of anthology are you trying to build or what's the process that you're going to take to sell it or to bring it to market? And then you kind of reverse engineer back from there to make sure that you're making intentional choices, the whole way through which, I know, is a non-answer. I know that I'm thinking about it because it's tough, but it's an exercise in patience, but it's a beautifully creative space to be in.

Lindy Ryan: 8:45

So when and no, that was a really good answer when so say, for example, is it just your agent that sends it out on sub, is that how it works? So one agent is kind of the point of contact for that book and and they are not necessarily representing everyone, but they're just that's the person that is the lead on it.

Lisa Schmid: 9:06

Yeah. So if you're selling on a proposal you know to a publisher, it's the anthologist's job to build the proposal. So do the outreach to bring on all the contributors and to kind of craft this. This is who's in the anthology, this is what the anthology is about. This is our anticipated word count and all those important details, timelines, and then the anthologist's agent represents the project, since they're representing the editor. At least in my experience, that's how I've always done it. I build the proposal, I gather up all the contributors, I take it to my agent, she takes it out and finds me a publisher, and then I'm the liaison between the publisher and the cohort of writers and artists and poets or whoever's in the anthology. So, and I deal with contributors independently, you know, working through their edits, working through their contracts, all that good stuff and then the agent represents the project as a whole.

Lindy Ryan: 10:02

So then you are the person that the editor never talks to any of the other authors. It's all through you and like they're editing all the stories and then it gets funneled through you?

Lisa Schmid: 10:13

Yeah, I mean I as an anthologist, I edit all of the stories and build them into the anthology and so when I hand over the manuscript it is completely edited and ordered, all that good stuff. The editor at the publisher will usually do a read and make sure there's, you know, nothing I missed. And then we do proofreading and all those types of line and copy editing later. But it's up to the editor to curate and part of that curation is dev editing all of the stories and making them fit together.

Lindy Ryan: 10:41

That's amazing. That's a lot of work. I mean that is a lot of work. My brain breaks when I'm just trying to write my own book. I can't even imagine navigating and juggling 20, 30 authors.

Lisa Schmid: 10:55

Yeah, it's a lot of work and every author is different. We are all different, very different creatively, in how we organize or how we engage in a process and as an anthologist, that's very exciting for me because it kind of trains me as a writer to think differently or to challenge the way I think about things or do things. So it's a wonderful thing to be a writer who is also an anthologist because I get to learn so much from other writers who I admire or I want to work with or I've read their writing and I want to understand their process or kind of get inside their brain. So it's very educational. So that's the price you pay for the the you know the grunt work of doing the work is you really get that really wonderful learning experience and get to know people in your space and to build that network and that community. So a lot of pros outweigh any of the cons, I think, for an anthology.

Lindy Ryan: 11:46

It's very cool.

Beth McMullen: 11:49

You mentioned that one came out yesterday that released yesterday. What is that one called? So yesterday's anthology?

Lisa Schmid: 11:55

release. It's called Mother Knows Best and it is a women in horror anthology. All surrounding you know mama, trauma, horror, mom tropes and or mom tropes and motherhood tropes in horror. So it's my second all women in horror anthology with 27 incredible women writing stories and poems inside the book. So just in time for Mother's Day.

Beth McMullen: 12:17

I am. I love that. That is so fun and I love the book. So just in time for Mother's Day, I am, I love that. That is so fun and I love the timing. That is so amazing. Okay, we will make sure to put that a note about that title in the podcast notes as well, so people can find that book. This actually reads leads very nicely to the next question, which is how do you feel publishing has treated women in the horror genre and those authors who are working in that space? Do you see it evolving? Is it getting better? I think for a long time there there wasn't. You just didn't see a lot of names in that space. It feels like it's changing, but I don't know. I'd love to hear your take on that.

Lisa Schmid: 12:55

Yeah, I mean absolutely. You know how has publishing treated women in horror? Historically not well and still currently, in a lot of ways, not well. We consistently see women who helped define the genre left out of conversations about the genre and that's incredibly frustrating. But I do think that the it is evolving. You know, women's voices, all marginalized and underrepresented voices, are being lifted inside the genre and we are seeing so much more inclusion and diversity in who are telling these stories and, as we talked about in a podcast yesterday, we're telling women are telling their story. We've had moms in horror, for example, for a really long time.

Lisa Schmid: 13:37

Right, there's so many quintessential characters we could name that are evil moms in horror, but now women are telling stories about their own motherhood experiences, and so it's's a huge umbrella of genre and I think when people think horror we start to, you know, we narrow our vision into a specific sub-genre of horror and fail to consider just how much there is, and so now we're seeing buzzwords like pink horror or quiet horror or, apparently, in my case, cozy horror. So these aren't new, they've always been there. It's just they're becoming part of the conversation finally, and in the mainstream and in the big five and in the book. You know shelves and you know the horror. Shelves are always a curious collection of you know kind of sub genres put together, but they're no longer dominated by the same three names and that's fantastic. And that's when we continue to see that growth and expansion and diversity of voices. That's what makes it rich and dynamic. So I hope we continue seeing more of that and I absolutely think we will.

Lindy Ryan: 14:51

So that's good. I think that's one question and it's something Beth and I just in publishing in general, how women are treated in comparison to men. There's always nuances that we sense and we feel. So it's specifically in horror, which has always been so much more of a male-dominated genre. It's really interesting and it's heartening to hear that it's evolving.

Lisa Schmid: 15:15

Yeah, I think there is, you know, kind of breaking down the barriers to understand what horror is as a genre and as a consequence of that, we're seeing, you know, more ways to tell those horror stories and more voices coming in. So at the end of the day, the genre itself is flourishing because we're no longer thinking horror has to be gory or it has to be supernatural or it has to, you know, involve a knife welding lunatic, or, you know, a guy who can't get rid of his mom's influence, or something like. We're these same stories over and over. We're moving and pushing open and being able to tell, you know, different versions of those same tropes and lean into the same storytelling devices, but from different perspectives. And you're right, I mean, I came up in horror completely.

Lisa Schmid: 15:59

I think I've been a horror reader since day one, obsessed with monsters and horror and, you know, spooky stuff my whole life. But it was never even when I started writing. I started writing in a different genre because, you know, horror wasn't kind in, you know, to women's voices at the time, and so it was kind of like, well, your women write women's fiction. And it's like, well, I don't just read women's fiction, so why must I write only women's fiction, and so I love that you know we're breaking free of those, those barriers.

Beth McMullen: 16:26

It's great for writers too, because there's just so much more. I'm like you. I love reading horror. I it's funny I've never tried to write it or wanted to write it, but as a consumer, as a reader, it's one of my favorite genres and I have gravitated toward it my whole life. And when I first started reading, there was Shirley Jackson. You had her, but there was nobody else. There were the guys, and they tell a different story. It's just the way it is. It's just facts.

Beth McMullen: 16:53

And to see now all of these different things that you can read, all of these different spaces on the shelf that are filled with different stuff, it's exciting as a reader because you're not reading the same thing over and over and over again. It's just. I love the way that you say this world is expanding, because it really is. And if you're a reader of horror, you know that, even if you haven't, like, acknowledged that it's happening, you know that in what you're able to pick up and what you're reading and the stories that you're being able to consume, I think it's really a super exciting time. And horror is hot. Everybody wants in on it and I think that's because of this expansion. Right? You're seeing, suddenly you're grabbing readers that maybe are cozy fans didn't know they liked horror, read your book and are like, oh yeah, I love this. So you're able to bring in more people, right? Who maybe would never have said I'm a horror fan, because they just weren't. They were only seeing this one slice and now the pies got all these slices, so it's really cool.

Lisa Schmid: 17:52

Yeah, absolutely. And, like I said, I think the expansion, like we're not thinking horror must be gory or it must be these things. It can be anything. And I think women have unique stake in horror. Our lives are filled with various small horrors and so, while we're not necessarily, or not only, you know, writing like ghosts and monsters, we're writing female experiences, we're thinking about body horror, we're thinking about motherhood horror. We're thinking about these.

Lisa Schmid: 18:17

You know, these things that we live through that are actually quite horrifying, really, when you scrape them down to their bones or loss of loved ones, or mourning our children as they grow, or I mean whatever any unique experience.

Lisa Schmid: 18:30

There's horror in that but there's hope in that right, because we get through it and we survive it or we overcome it. And that's what horror is about. It's about overcoming your fears and, yes, those fears might be a haunting or a monster or a slasher or you know an experience, but they could be just our own internal trauma or guilt or, you know, just existing outside of our space, outdoors. So you know, and we see a lot of really successful commercial horror projects and film and television embracing those concepts, and people you know seem surprised, but when you kind of break it down. It's like, is it really that surprising? Because I've had the same experience my whole life too, and somebody was brave enough to tell the story. And so, yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful Renaissance, and in the horror world, and we still have Shirley Jackson, we still have Mary Shelley, we still have all of those women who paved the way for us, and now we get to you know, march down that road that they laid out, for sure.

Lindy Ryan: 19:28

Well, so that lead, this is going to be a really hard right turn to our next question, really hard right turn. So you've had a few books turned into movies. Tell us about how that came to fruition and what you learned from those experiences, cause that's of course every author's dream to see their you know their book on the big screen or the small screen.

Lisa Schmid: 19:52

I think anytime you get to watch this beautiful creation that you've made come alive in a way that other people can experience is, you know, wonderful. And yeah, so I've done a couple of book to film projects on the kind of rom-com side, and then I've done some that were just straight to film, that didn't have books behind them, and then, of course, I did an animated short film a couple of years ago based on a children's story which is talk about hard right turns, so, and that's been amazing. And now Bless your Heart is in development for television as well, and so it's a whole different ballgame, so kind of like anthologies, that experience is never the same. This you know, at least in my experience, that experience has always been very unique, you know, taking something that's screenplay only, or taking book to film or animated project, or now we're in the world of television development, which is a totally different ballgame. So you know it's.

Lisa Schmid: 20:48

I think as a writer, we have this tendency to get really attached to how we see our world, how we see our characters and how we, you know how we visualize our own stories. And when you start moving into the cinema world, where you've got directors and producers and talent and opinions and all of that creativity can sometimes result in a very different project. That's maybe not how we imagined it and I think it can be challenging to embrace that. But if you do, or when you do, then you realize that you've not written you know one book or one film. You've written five or six. Right, you've got everybody's version and that makes it, you know, dynamic and interesting and allows you to see beyond yourself and really to open up, and so it's. It's difficult, kind of watching this thing you've created grow and morph and change, but it's also incredibly rewarding and fun and you get to meet the most incredible people and you know the most incredible directors and producers, all those people who make the magic and you get to work as a team. And so for a writer, that's awesome because you know when, when we're writing, it's.

Lisa Schmid: 21:56

It can be a very solitary experience. You know we have beta readers or trusted readers or we have our editors, who we love and hate in equal measure. Right, we have that team. But when you go out into the film or television side, it's a whole different team and it just becomes a really collaborative, exciting experience. Everyone is working to bring those characters or that world you created to life, and so it's. It makes you feel really small and really big at the same time, and I think it's the most incredible experience to go through, for, even for all its frustrations. And you know, sometimes things move really fast and sometimes they move really slow, but you just ride the wave and enjoy every step of it and then you get the end of the day. You pour yourself a glass of wine or coffee or water or whatever you want, and watch, watch your characters come to life on their own, and nothing is more magical It'd be amazing.

Lindy Ryan: 22:51

I mean, what an amazing feeling to see those, those characters, like in a story that you know people are watching.

Lisa Schmid: 22:57

Yeah, it's, I can't even compare it to anything and I'm, you know, as we're moving through the process with Bless your Heart and seeing some of the different things happening, it's like, oh, I never thought of that, but oh, that's an incredible idea, right. And it keeps you inspired and it keeps you motivated to continue creating, not just, maybe, that project, but other next steps. You know it's, I think you know, we write it, we slave over a novel, right. That may take us a month, a couple of months Wouldn't that be nice? Months, or even years to finish, and it can be. It's a hard battle to do all that and you wonder if it's worth it sometimes, or if you have another one in you. And those types of experiences just enjoying them and riding that wave, I think, gives you that momentum to keep going. So I'm always grateful for that, because finding inspiration is super hard for me.

Beth McMullen: 23:47

I like the mindset that you're talking about, that you have to be open and flexible and kind of let go of your notion that this story can only be viewed this one way. It's almost what happens with our readers, right? We let stuff out and then people reflect back to you scenes or impressions that you never thought about, or never thought about it in the way that they're describing it, because it becomes their experience. You've given it to them and it becomes their experience, and it's often hard for us to say, okay, that's not really the way I meant it, but they're taking it this way, but okay, so, but I mean just letting it go and letting it be the viewer's experience, letting it be the TV writer's experience, letting it be the reader's experience. I love that mindset of just being okay with your story. It's serving whatever need there is for that, that person, which is kind of why we do it. So that's that's a good thing for people to remember if they are walking this path.

Lisa Schmid: 24:46

Yeah, I think it's just to be open to it. You know, with bless your heart, in particular that one has been unique because there are four women telling the story and it's a multi POV project and in addition to the four core characters, there's a couple of other people who have a POV. So one of the things that's been most fun to me is I know who I think is the character, that that's the main, the main character of the world, and I get to listen to everyone tell me their opinions on who that main character is, which drastically reshapes everything. And so it's like I said everyone has this different version of the same story and it's it's. You know, it's really fun and really frustrating in equal measure, but you learn and you grow and you just sponge up all of that inspiration that you can and I think that's the biggest win for sure.

Beth McMullen: 25:33

Well, lisa and I are going to be there with our popcorn when it comes out, sitting on the couch watching it. Very exciting, right, I know, I know, right, you'll be there going. Oh, that's interesting. How did that happen? Our last question, which actually we maybe had these a little out of order because this goes back a little bit to the female authors in horror subject that we were discussing before. We were talking about the books to movies what advice? You have a lot of experience, you have deep experience in writing her, in publishing her in various ways. So what advice would you give to female authors who are thinking about trying to publish horror and working in that genre? What are some things that they could, they could do or think about that might help them down that path?

Lisa Schmid: 26:18

I always like to think of women in horror as a sisterhood and I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing me say this, but I beat this drum a lot Like we are in this genre, we are in this fight together to raise our voices and each other's voices. So, for me, one of or maybe the most important the best thing I ever did for myself as a creative woman in horror was to meet other women in horror and to build that community and that network, because you get a lot from it and you get the support, you get the experience, you get the mentorship, you get the validation of the stories you're trying to tell. So I think you know, for female authors seeking to get published in the horror genre, my first, absolute first word of advice would be reach out to other women in horror. We are here, we are ready to be friendly and embrace you in the community, and I think that's what's so wonderful about horror, right, like all these spooky, scary people and no, we're actually friendly folk, you know. So come, let's be friends and drink tea. And I think I have spent the past few years really working with women in horror and getting to know them out there, and every single one of these women are incredible people and incredible writers and incredibly supportive and they have given me that sisterhood, that network, that launchpad.

Lisa Schmid: 27:36

And there's many times when I get frustrated or I get irritated or I get stuck or I feel like I'm reaching or pushing too hard, and I just pick up the phone and I call one of those women and I say you know, listen to this and we talk, and no other avenue to building community has been more meaningful than building those relationships. So, and that's not even just writers and authors, but there's editors, there's publishers, there's publicists, there's podcasters, there's reviewers right, there are women who have their feet and their footprint in every aspect of the business. And we all, you know, we know each other, we talk to one another and we're here to support that community. So I definitely always try to encourage people to, you know, reach out and you know we're all a bunch of. You know mogwais I'm a hiding, you know, in the in the dark of the house, and so tend to be a lot of introverted people but still very differently type. So I have a hard time like going out and saying, hi, I'm Lindy, tell me about you. And instead, you know, I look for more organic opportunities, because I'm incredibly shy and socially anxious, so, but I think most of us are and we have to get over some of those own obstacles, because we're all coming from the same place and we just need that outreach.

Lisa Schmid: 28:53

And, but you know, to get published, reach out and make those networks, meet those authors that you admire, those editors, those publishers, those publishers they are. Every every aspect of publishing has them, you know. And to engage in the reader community as well. I mean, just don't be afraid to make friends. Writing is solitary and isolating and you feel like you're living in a closet and you probably are, you know, running around in your pajamas with like 37 cups of coffee and swamp witch hair, and it's like same. We're all here doing the same thing. So you know, look, that's one of the reasons I love doing so much women in horror, anthologies and showcases and you know other ideas or aspects because it lets me meet people, but it lets them meet one another as well. So I think mentorship is a huge asset and you just got to reach out and go for it, because we're here and we want to lift you up.

Beth McMullen: 29:49

So that is a beautiful, beautiful note to wrap up on. I know that we're always talking about how this community various parts of it and sub parts of it are is so supportive, but you do have to engage in it and it's hard if you're shy or introverted, but, as you said, you can kind of slide in and meet people and what a what a great resource as you're starting to go down this, this horror path. So thank you for sharing that with us and thank you for coming on the show and sharing all of this wisdom with us. I think this is gonna be a great episode for our listeners, those who are interested or currently writing horror and those who aren't. Just to know that a lot of these aspects we're talking about apply to whatever genre you're writing in.

Beth McMullen: 30:39

But for those who are writing horror, I think it's great to hear this, especially the women that are that are writing. So thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure and, listeners, remember you can find out more about Lindy on her website, which I'll put in the podcast notes along with her recent books that have come out, and be sure to visit writerswithwrinklesnet to follow, support and share about the show, and Lisa and I will see you again next week for our May 10th episode, which is a deep dive craft episode, and those are always really fun. So we hope you join us for that and until then, happy reading, writing and listening.