A Slightly Unhinged Conversation about Endings that Stick & Avoiding the Rush to the Final Chapter

In this impromptu episode (guest couldn't make it last minute!!), Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid dive into the challenges of finishing a novel, with Lisa candidly sharing her ongoing struggles with her book's last chapter. The hosts discuss strategies to avoid rushed endings and ways to reignite enthusiasm during the final stages of writing.

Guest Bio
No guest this week—Beth and Lisa take center stage with an unscripted and authentic conversation.

Key Discussion Points

The Perils of the Last Chapter
Lisa describes her repeated attempts to finalize her book's ending and the temptation to keep adding chapters. Beth recalls her experience writing her first book, where she wrote the last chapter first, a strategy she recommends for some writers.

Avoiding Rushed Endings
The hosts highlight how rushed endings can diminish a reader’s experience, using personal and external examples.

Tips for pacing include stepping back from the manuscript and revisiting earlier sections to fill gaps.

Rebuilding Enthusiasm
Taking breaks from writing and seeking feedback from critique partners are emphasized as ways to maintain motivation.

Positive critique experiences can serve as a catalyst to complete drafts.

Writer's Emotional Investment
Lisa shares her struggles with critique and reviews, reinforcing the emotional journey of authorship.

Both hosts agree that writers often seek external validation but should balance it with self-confidence.

Conclusion
Beth and Lisa encourage writers to approach their final chapters with patience and intentionality, offering practical advice to keep the creative spark alive. Whether it’s taking a break or tackling the ending with a fresh perspective, the hosts remind listeners that perseverance leads to rewarding results.

Mentioned Links

• Writers With Wrinkles Podcast Notes and Blog
• Submit questions for the upcoming "Ask Beth and Lisa" episode via the podcast website.

Listeners, join us for the next episode on December 9th, and send in your questions!

Transcript

Ask Beth & Lisa Episode 39



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Beth McMullen: Hi, friends, I'm Beth Mcmullen.

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Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmidt.

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Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of writers with wrinkles. This is season 3, episode 38. And today we're answering questions.

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Beth McMullen: Quick. Note on how to submit your questions, visit our website for the link text from the podcast notes scream across time zones. We will absolutely hear you because Lisa and I never actually sleep anymore.

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Beth McMullen: We will put all this in the podcast notes. So you can find it easily and get those questions to us. We have, we have a couple of good ones for today. Don't you think.

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Lisa Schmid: I think they're really good. And it's 1 of those. It's those things that

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Lisa Schmid: it happens to people. And you hear people complaining and talking about it. But then we recently had a friend

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Lisa Schmid: so that got orphaned, and I for those who don't know what that means.

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Lisa Schmid: It's a really scary.

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Beth McMullen: So sad. It's a sad, sad moment.

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Lisa Schmid: And I know so many people who have been orphaned so.

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Beth McMullen: Me!

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Lisa Schmid: When.

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Beth McMullen: Many times.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: so it's when you are acquired at a publisher, you have an acquiring editor, and sometimes that acquiring editor leaves. And so now you have no champion at the publisher. Your book, basically.

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Lisa Schmid: that's shoved onto another well-meaning editor's desk, who's already got a full plate of books that they loved. And they acquired. And now they have to work on your book, and you get shuffled to the bottom of the pile and become an afterthought.

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Lisa Schmid: I wish that

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Lisa Schmid: that I was hearing like different experiences from people. But it's always a very consistent experience. So we recently had a mutual friend that has just gone through a horrific experience and we were. Gonna talk about that, and then solutions that can help you. If this happens to you.

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Beth McMullen: Yes, it is very disturbing.

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Beth McMullen: I've I'm I have been orphaned multiple times, and

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Beth McMullen: you take it in the beginning very personally, because you go into this relationship with the acquiring editor in good faith, and you feel like you've brought at. You've done and done everything you can do on your side, and then you're just abandoned. It is not personal. That's the 1st thing

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Beth McMullen: the editor is not leaving you. They always have really good reasons for needing to jump ship, and some of those may not feel meaningful to you at the time, but trust me, they are

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Beth McMullen: editors would love to stay with you the whole time they loved your book. That's why they acquired it. But, on the other hand, sometimes changes happen in life, and you just have to make a move.

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Beth McMullen: but it does feel

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Beth McMullen: shocking. And

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Beth McMullen: I would say that my 1st reaction, when this 1st happened to me, my very 1st book, very 1st book

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Beth McMullen: I just panicked because I didn't. I didn't know. I didn't know. This was a thing that even happened. So yeah, I think

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Beth McMullen: a lot of people who it happens to you don't even know that it's a thing, and it's very, very much a thing.

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Beth McMullen: So yeah, I mean, we have this story of this, this mutual friend. You actually know her a bit better than I do. So I will let you kinda walk everyone through those specifics.

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Lisa Schmid: And this is just a cautionary tale of, you know, something that can happen so. And we're trying to do this like, I know, it's going to sound scary, and but it kind of was this poor gal she was acquired, and then her editor immediately left.

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Lisa Schmid: and she could put on somebody else's desk, and I know she loved that editor. But the editor didn't have time. She

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Lisa Schmid: didn't get an edit, an edit letter.

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Lisa Schmid: She got no developmental edits.

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Lisa Schmid: She basically went into copy editing for the most part, and the 1st copy editor was so bad that she had to request a second copy editor.

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Lisa Schmid: and

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Lisa Schmid: the the second time they went through copy edits was all done in past pages.

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Lisa Schmid: And for anybody who doesn't know what past pages are. It's basically, it's when the books in form open and you're there's no like you can't go in and

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Lisa Schmid: make changes to the to the document. You have to literally kind of highlight it and then create a separate document. And when there's hundreds of edits of copy edits, it's a really laborious and it just.

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Beth McMullen: Well, and the truth of the matter is, when you get past pages, there should be minimal changes done at that stage of the game. What you should be changing is maybe they forgot a word, or there's an extra word. Tiny, tiny little things that most readers will gloss right over and not even notice. So the fact that

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Beth McMullen: this person who asked not to be named so we are not naming her ended up having to do well the whole series of events. When I heard this story, it kind of blew my mind. If there was something called publishing malpractice, this would be it right, because here this person entered into the contract with the publisher. Her editor left

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Beth McMullen: no shade on the editor. As I said, this happens, people move around. Publishing jobs are not well paid. The people are overworked, and if they see a better opportunity elsewhere, of course they're going to take it. No shade for that. But she found herself in a position where nobody was tending to the details. The timeline that she had been given was neglected so

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Beth McMullen: suddenly. You're barreling towards your publication date, which hasn't changed, and you haven't even received feedback on the draft in any form. I mean, when I heard that this person didn't get an editorial letter of any variety, even notes within the pages. I was actually stunned, and it takes a lot to stun me, as you well know.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, it was. It was a hot mess, and and you know, pardon me, I was once, you know, I would get the phone calls with her crying, and you know everything that was happening throughout the whole process. And it was pretty horrific, like I. And I've heard we've heard a lot of stories like off the air from other writers that things that have happened. And you're like, Yeah, that's bad. And but this girl really got put through the rainer, and so it was. It was.

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Beth McMullen: Got to remember, too, that people.

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Beth McMullen: This was a 1st book.

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Beth McMullen: and you go into that

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Beth McMullen: 1st book with so much excitement and enthusiasm.

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Beth McMullen: But you're also really naive, because you don't know what's coming. You haven't gone to this rodeo before, so I think that it was

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Beth McMullen: almost worse because this person was so

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Beth McMullen: excited for this book. They had worked on this book a long time, and to finally get to the point that everybody's striving to get to.

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Beth McMullen: and then have it just go completely upside down.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, she was she was basically an afterthought to everything. And I I know to this day I mean she scarred. She's like, I don't even know if I want to be here anymore like this is, this is not fun. She felt like she.

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Lisa Schmid: You feel like when you've arrived at a publisher that you've arrived to the Promised Land. It's like I'm here. They've got my book. I have arrived, and then you get crapped on, and it doesn't feel good. And so it just. It was a rough ride for her, and hopefully, she'll, you know, like a hangover, she'll get over it and forget about it. Someday.

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Beth McMullen: Well, I think it makes you very

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Beth McMullen: tentative about

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Beth McMullen: entering into that relationship again. I have heard

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Beth McMullen: we have heard many stories of people who have gone through the traditional publishing process and come out feeling really

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Beth McMullen: neglected or abused.

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Beth McMullen: and gone off to self-publish with great success. So

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Beth McMullen: the question becomes, you know what is the the value of traveling

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Beth McMullen: path? A versus path B. And somebody like this person who has gotten had gone through this very negative experience.

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Beth McMullen: Maybe self-publishing is the way they go, just because they felt like they had to do everything themselves, anyway.

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Beth McMullen: Right? You know, it does become an option for people who feel like

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Beth McMullen: they just didn't get any attention, or even the the basic attention. I mean this, this case was abnormal, because even when I was orphaned, and I was orphaned

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Beth McMullen: well, my 1st book had 3 editors, so by the time it came to publication the acquiring editor was like a distant memory. The second editor quit because she wanted to start a catering food truck

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Beth McMullen: right? And I was like, Wow, am I that bad that they're really just willing to do anything to get away from me I don't know, and the 3rd editor was like, I don't think I I mean, I don't think she read the book, and again, no shade. I was such an afterthought to this editor. She had her own stuff, and I was so far removed.

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Beth McMullen: But again that book really was on the Struggle bus. And then it happened

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Beth McMullen: again

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Beth McMullen: with the sequel. I had 2 editors, my next book, Deal. I had 2 editors, and the second editor was.

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Beth McMullen: you know, actually, I respected her because, she said, upfront.

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Beth McMullen: you are so low on the on the list of things that I care about right now. That, like, that's just where we're at right.

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Beth McMullen: Which was true, you know. And then I kind of knew what to expect, which was basically nothing. So I wasn't surprised.

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Beth McMullen: But again, there's so many things in publishing that you can control. But there are big things that you can't.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. And I think one of the things that you know when I was talking to our friend.

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Lisa Schmid: what she would have done differently. And that's what I wanted to convey today, like what she would have done differently had she known, like how bad it was gonna be. And I think she knew it was. She was in trouble already when she had her 1st zoom call, and the editor hadn't even read the book

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Lisa Schmid: and see, I'm like, Okay, there's your red flag number one

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Lisa Schmid: and and then things. Just you know, she didn't get

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Lisa Schmid: at anything for like a year.

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Lisa Schmid: And then everything was like

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Lisa Schmid: this fast-paced nightmare of just

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Lisa Schmid: garbage. And but the thing that you know as an author so many times, and I've done it, I'm sure. Well, I don't know if you've done it. You're better at standing up for yourself.

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Lisa Schmid: But I you know, whenever I've been in 2 publishing contracts and you go. You bend over backwards because you're just like I want to be like that author that they're like we enjoy working with her, and we'll work with her again. So you don't want to be that squeaky wheel that is going to cause problems that they're like, Yeah, we're done with you, or you know, you want it to be a great experience for the editor and for the publisher, and so what what she should have done, and and in retrospect.

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Lisa Schmid: is, you know, having a meeting, an emergency meeting right away with her agent. That was, she's like, I wish we would have sat down and like strategized for what was to come or what were the possibilities. And then also she's seen her agent, including her on all the steps, because I think she was trying to resolve them on her own without getting her agent involved. Because you're like I'm a grown up by. Why, my, you know, I should just be handling.

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Beth McMullen: So also because it's a debut book.

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Lisa Schmid: Right.

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Beth McMullen: you don't really know right? You kind of have that sense of. Well, maybe this is the normal process when your editor leaves and you get added to somebody else's list.

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Beth McMullen: So I think.

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Beth McMullen: trusting your gut that if something feels weird or wrong, you're kind of raising your hand and saying, Is this really the way it's supposed to be going, and your agent will have limited ability to do stuff right. There's only so much they can do. They can't make the editor

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Beth McMullen: move you up the list to make you more prominent in their, you know, in their day to day, but

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Beth McMullen: they can help you sort of navigate step by step by step, and do at least some things to make you feel like you're

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Beth McMullen: more in control. The 1st thing, my agent said to me the very 1st time that my 1st editor left was, This happens to everybody

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Beth McMullen: at least once or twice, I mean, and you know, for those of us who are really lucky. It happens over and over again, but

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Beth McMullen: it's not uncommon. So you're definitely not alone. And I think that

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Beth McMullen: making sure that you are paying extra attention to everything that's going on, that when a date is coming up, you're making sure to be really annoying to the editor, as in you owe me feedback on this day. Am I getting it? Am I getting it? Am I getting it like?

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Beth McMullen: Be a little bit pushy and annoying. That's totally fine, because nobody is going to love your book more than you. So if you're not out there waving your arms in the air about it. Nobody else is going to.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. And I think with you know, once she really got her agent engaged, her agent was on like scheduling phone calls with editor and managing editor, and she, you know she does. She jumped in, but at that point it was so late in the game

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Lisa Schmid: that her her agent can only do so much. You know what I mean. And so I think it's 1 of those things that just from the very beginning the 1st red flag that waves its ugly head. Let your agent know so that they can jump into the mix and stay involved throughout the whole process. CC.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: Like important communications, like, if there's like a problem, see? Seeing your agent so that they know, and then they can follow up and say, has this been taken care of.

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Beth McMullen: And they may have limited ability to do much, but at least

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Beth McMullen: they're in the process. So when they can do something they are there to do it as opposed to you then, being too late to tell them, and they can't do anything right. They are your agent.

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Beth McMullen: The very name suggests that they are advocating for you. So let them do that. And of course.

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Beth McMullen: most agents, I would. I would actually say, all agents probably have experience with this. So

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Beth McMullen: make sure you use that experience. Make sure they know what's happening, because a lot of times an agent's not going to be involved in your day to day conversations with your editor, so make sure that the ones that are relevant to the ongoing process and the success potentially of your book, then they're they are engaged in that. They are involved in that, and that they know everything that's going on in the background.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, and the other thing is like, if you don't speak up, they'll never know how bad it is, and they'll keep submitting to that same publisher, too.

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Lisa Schmid: It's just. It's 1 of those things where it's like their needs. You just you need to have your agent involved. They need to be aware of what's going on? And so that it's you know it's again. It's a cautionary tale like, do you know, in the future, do I want to put somebody else on that desk, or do I want to send them there? Because my client just went through, you know this situation.

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Lisa Schmid: and so I think you know, for everyone who's been orphaned and who has been through a bad experience. And you're wondering if you want to stay. I think it's just where you need a moment to just step back and know that there are really good experiences out there.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, totally. And I mean, some people will go a long time without being orphaned, or maybe forever, and that you know. Good for them. I wish I was that person.

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Beth McMullen: but when it does happen you can, you know, sit in the corner and rend your garments for a little while, and then you just have to get up and deal with it

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Beth McMullen: because it is the reality, and

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Beth McMullen: the person who is leaving the editor who is leaving. They are going to walk out that door, and that's it. Then you are left standing there trying to figure out what to do. And

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Beth McMullen: writing is, you know the fun part. The writing. The book is only one part of the job, the other part of the job is managing that editorial experience, experience, managing the marketing, making sure the publishing house is doing everything they told you they were going to do. You know, that's just that's just the business, and if you don't like that business, then do your writing, but make sure that you're remembering you're doing it for yourself, and that you're, you know, not going to necessarily travel that path.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, and that kind of leads to the other

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Lisa Schmid: part of our conversation where lately, and I think during covid

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Lisa Schmid: it, the waters became even rougher.

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Lisa Schmid: so to speak. And I know so many people like every day I'm having conversations or email exchanges with somebody who's like, I'm so bitter and jaded. I'm I'm just done you know. I saw something we both saw on threads that

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Lisa Schmid: and and it's funny she's a local. She's a local author. I'm having drinks with her next week. She just posted. She's like, I'm so I all the you know. I've been writing for 15 years, and all the joy is gone because of publishing, like she's been put through the ringer. And I am hearing those conversations every single day, and it's just like what is going on in publishing that they are, are not understanding that the writer is their commodity, that that is the person that's creating their works.

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Lisa Schmid: And yet these people keep just and really like successful authors that have, you know, put out several books that are just like I'm done, you know. You get abused so many times, and then you're just like pulling the ripcord, saying I'm out.

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Lisa Schmid: And so I guess one of the things that we wanted to convey was like, if you're feeling this way, you're not alone. You're not a bad writer. You're not a bad person. You didn't do anything wrong. But you do need to speak up for yourself, and you need to find a way to navigate it and know that it's a possibility. Anytime you enter into a contract.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, I think

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Beth McMullen: to, there is a disconnect between what publishers can realistically be expected to do

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Beth McMullen: and what authors think the publisher is going to do, and what I mean by that. Here's a little example. So say you sign on with a big publisher to publish your new novel.

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Beth McMullen: and you're doing your marketing and sales call, and they're talking about all these things that they're going to do for your book.

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Beth McMullen: And then you get this beautiful arc and on the back of the arc is, you know, national book, tour.

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Beth McMullen: social media, blitz of messaging. And and this laundry list of things. Now

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Beth McMullen: the truth is that

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Beth McMullen: those are ideas

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Beth McMullen: and possibilities.

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Beth McMullen: They are not guarantees.

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Beth McMullen: but I think that so many authors see that. And I see this posted all the time where people are like. I'm getting a book tour because it says so on my arc.

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Beth McMullen: And I'm like, you're going to end up heartbroken because this is not reality, and

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Beth McMullen: a publisher might say to you, We love this book so much. We see a long relationship.

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Beth McMullen: and we see you growing with us. We want to be part of that journey.

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Beth McMullen: The truth is, that may very well happen if your book is a success. Remember, publishing is a business. I think we forget that sometimes.

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Beth McMullen: if you're successful, that journey will be lovely. If your book bombs, which is like 95% of books that get published don't even earn their advance back. I don't know if that figure is right, but it's ballpark right.

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Beth McMullen: That journey is going to end really fast, because they're going to stop betting on you. It is no longer a long term relationship where they're like, okay, well, this book didn't do great. But we'll just build on that and keep going. No, they're going to switch to somebody else

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Beth McMullen: who potentially is going to have a big fit. A big hit. No, I'm gonna have the big fit. That's the wrong thing. They're gonna have a big hit. But I mean, that is just business. Think about any other business product, not books. That's just the way it works. Right.

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Beth McMullen: If you are an A list author, you're going to have a different experience than if you're blist. If you're blist. You are on the struggle bus from moment number one.

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Beth McMullen: and you have to decide, based on that reality. If it's something that you want to do that you can handle that the upside is enough to balance the downside. What are your goals? What does writing give you? You have to answer all of these questions, and then

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Beth McMullen: I think for me having been in this for so long, like I have been

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Beth McMullen: really excited, and I've been really bitter. But now I'm just kind of like I see it for what it is. And it makes me. I'm not angry about it anymore, because I see the reality of publishing. And you really do need to understand the reality rather than what you're hearing people say to you about, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to do that. They would love to do all that for you. They can't do all that for everybody.

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Beth McMullen: It's just not realistic.

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Lisa Schmid: And the other thing, and we had one of our editors that came on. Rachel Stark with Disney was so brutally honest, I mean, I think we both like our jaws. Both dropped when she said this, that you know, they kind of decide like they'll read a book, or they identify a manuscript and go. This is what we want to put all our money behind.

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Lisa Schmid: and then they have to, you know, put in in writing like why, they think that this is, you know, going to be their a list, you know. Book that season, or whatever, and that's where they put all their time and energy, and if you're on, if you're on the B list.

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Lisa Schmid: you're you're not, it's getting. It's sucking all the air out of the room.

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Lisa Schmid: and so you can. You can see, like the different one, authors getting treated at the publisher, and then the B List authors just sitting there like, Oh, my God, you know I'm over here. You're waving your hand, and you're seeing all these crazy things happen for your a-list authors that you know the blist authors aren't getting not even remotely close. And that is just a general. That's a blanket statement across.

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Lisa Schmid: you know, everywhere that is what happens.

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Beth McMullen: Just reality.

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Lisa Schmid: It's reality.

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Beth McMullen: Reality, and I think that if

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Beth McMullen: you can handle reality, then you can just go along and have

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Beth McMullen: as positive an experience as possible. If the reality just kind of doubles you over in agony.

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Beth McMullen: Maybe that's not the path you're taking. Maybe you're taking a self publishing path where you're going to be doing a lot of the same work. Anyway, you're going to have to pay for some editing and polishing of your manuscript and finding a cover and and distribution channels and and whatnot, all of that stuff. But at the end of the day you're in full control of everything as opposed to feeling like you've handed the reins over to somebody who didn't really want to take them.

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Lisa Schmid: And I think also I think all publishers and edit. You know editors have good intentions, but they are so overwhelmed, and

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Lisa Schmid: you know I don't. I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes at any publishing house. So it just. But you can tell that they're overwhelmed like it's just. It's across the board universally from every single editor writer I've ever spoken to.

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Lisa Schmid: They're just like, you know, I was just talking to somebody yesterday. I'm like, How are you doing? What's going on with your book? She has 2 books in contract right now, and she's like, Yeah, I'm being ghosted on both of them. I haven't. You know. I haven't heard anything from my editor in months. I have no idea where my edits are, I mean, and that is a normal. That's 2 books, and one from one of these books was, is like, she's an a list, you know. Well, I know she's a list, but she she's just like, Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

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Beth McMullen: It's it's true, it's true. And I think that

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Beth McMullen: I think that editors are called upon to wear hats that are not necessarily in their wheelhouse, so skills that they need that they don't necessarily have that they're being asked to use. So I mean, I've had

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Beth McMullen: an editor who was

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Beth McMullen: an amazing editor.

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Beth McMullen: She would look at the manuscript

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Beth McMullen: and the things that I was like. I don't know. I can't quite figure out what's not working. She could 0. She was like laser focused on the stuff, and her editorial letters were a roadmap to

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Beth McMullen: just vastly improving the book, even if it was a manuscript that I thought was pretty good. She would elevate it every single time she was excellent. She still is excellent. She's still out there doing excellent work.

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Beth McMullen: but the stuff that she also had to do for the book, the sales and marketing stuff, the the timeline stuff, the you know, where everything is going to be how much time you get to manage your edits. All of those things

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Beth McMullen: those she were. She was not as good at, and

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Beth McMullen: because that that wasn't really the skill set that attracted her to publishing in the 1st place.

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Beth McMullen: So when you're asking editors to wear all these hats.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: Inevitably something is gonna gonna fall by the wayside. I totally get that. It's too much work.

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Beth McMullen: and I think that they get really burned out.

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Beth McMullen: and they go and start food trucks.

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Lisa Schmid: It's, I think, anytime we've had an editor on.

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Lisa Schmid: If it's a taco truck I'm there anytime we've had an editor on. I've always been shocked to hear like, how much stuff they have to do like just in the acquisitions process and the business side of it. And you know, just and then you add the editing and managing their writers, and I mean just everything that they have to do.

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Lisa Schmid: and then getting, you know, they're mapping out their time, and then they get, you know, one or 2 manuscripts shoved onto their thing, and they're just. I can. Just. I have visuals of their heads exploding. So this isn't, you know. This isn't like you said Shade on any editors. This is the industry.

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Lisa Schmid: and there's something inherently broken when you know every time I talk to a writer, they are so fried and so burnt out, and feel so abused by the process that they just want to leave, you know, and that's I mean, I think we've talked to. Maybe a handful

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Lisa Schmid: of writers on the show that are like this is the best thing ever, and they are a list authors where you're just sitting there listening to their experience going? Oh, my God, I'm like what is happening over in this magical land.

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Beth McMullen: Day. It's really nice. It is night and day. It's really.

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Beth McMullen: it's really different. It's really different. And it's again.

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Beth McMullen: It's in.

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Beth McMullen: God bless you if you can get there and and enjoy the ride. But the vast vast majority of working riders are not in that group.

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Beth McMullen: and they're dealing with a very different universe. And

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Beth McMullen: I mean, I guess the takeaway is to

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Beth McMullen: just really understand reality

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Beth McMullen: and go forth knowing potentially what is going to happen. So when it does happen, you don't feel blindsided or shocked to be in the situation, and it also allows you to plan things to prop up

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Beth McMullen: your effort again. Nobody loves your book more than you. Nobody wants it to succeed more than you. So you are going to have to get in the game. You cannot leave all the work to the publishing house because they can't do it.

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Beth McMullen: They can't.

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Lisa Schmid: Can't do it.

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Beth McMullen: So you know you have to be ready. You have to have a plan of your own for how you're going to support your book.

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Lisa Schmid: I think one of the other things that and I had. This is another conversation I had with an an author offline that

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Lisa Schmid: you when this happens when you get orphaned or you're you know you're getting shuffled to the side

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Lisa Schmid: and they're not. You're not getting the same kind of attention, and it doesn't mean your books

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Lisa Schmid: any less. You know, any less. Well written, or it's any, you know. It's just as good as this other person's or whatever.

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Lisa Schmid: but because they haven't shown the same attention for like promotions, and they're not doing, you know, times, square billboards, or, you know, running Amazon ads or good reads giveaways. I mean, whatever it is they're doing for some other book that's garnering all these sales. That's awesome. But if they're not doing anything for you, and you don't get the sales, and it tanks your book. Then it tanks that your ability to get a new book deal

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Lisa Schmid: or a good book deal. And so I that's the thing I think is so frustrating is that not only are they taking that book

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Lisa Schmid: by not showing it the care and consideration it was promised at time of signing. They are also taking, you know, tanking your ability to get a new contract or a decent contract.

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Beth McMullen: Oh, it's absolutely true, I mean I would.

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Beth McMullen: In many circumstances I would take

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Beth McMullen: a smaller advance that I know that I can earn out

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Beth McMullen: as opposed to a larger one that I'm never going to earn out, because then I'm now wearing that.

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Beth McMullen: You know that baggage, or carrying that baggage of not having earned out my book.

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Beth McMullen: and

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Beth McMullen: that is a hard thing. If you're going for another book to another publisher, you're going to have to explain that? Because now why would they take a chance on you? You didn't succeed when they can take a chance on somebody who's new and fresh.

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Lisa Schmid: Right.

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Beth McMullen: So I think there's definitely

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Beth McMullen: you definitely have to be planning in advance how you want to handle that situation, provided that your book doesn't go the distance, and now

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Beth McMullen: forevermore that is attached to you. That's your reputation.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: Belongs to? How are you going to explain it? How are you going to navigate around it?

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Beth McMullen: What does it do? How do you dig yourself out of the hole, you end up in author jail, and how do you get out of it?

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Lisa Schmid: Right. And that's another thing where you know those are conversations that you have to have with your agent, and they're probably not really fun, because the agents, probably looking at the numbers going, how am I gonna sell? You know how even you know your next book is great. But how am I gonna sell it when you know I'm looking at your numbers, and they're not awesome.

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Lisa Schmid: And so it just. It's just this quagmire. And I feel like this is such a Debbie Downer episode. But this I think this is just one of those it's let's let's be real about publishing and.

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Beth McMullen: That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, understand the reality. Understand the limitations of this

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Beth McMullen: book contract of this

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Beth McMullen: process that you're going to step into it. It's it is a limited process. So understand the reality of that, and then you will be less broken hearted when things happen to you, and you will be more able to adjust

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Beth McMullen: and do the things that you need to do to make yourself a success.

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Beth McMullen: I I honestly do not believe in living in this fantasy world of like books, or something

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Beth McMullen: different than any other product that a company is trying to sell right, because for the publisher. They are trying to sell a product.

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Beth McMullen: So you have to think about it as a product on a certain level. Of course, writing is is not like making shoes, but

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Beth McMullen: at the end of the day the selling part is the same. So you have to just live in the you have to live in the real world, because otherwise you're just going to get your heart broken.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: And they don't.

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Lisa Schmid: Enough.

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Beth McMullen: For people.

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Lisa Schmid: No, and that I think again, that's why we're having this. Because we debated, we're like, Oh, my gosh! This is such a.

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Beth McMullen: But you were totally right when you said so. Many people are showing up with this same thing like asking this same question about why do I feel this way? Why does publishing make me feel this way? And we have definitely seen a big uptick in people feeling like they got run over by a bus.

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Lisa Schmid: I mean literally 2 people last week. And I said this in other episodes. I know 2 people who are leaving. I know. Yeah, I know 2 people who are like I'm done.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm out. I can't. This doesn't feel good to me anymore. And they're fairly successful authors. They've had several books out, but they're just like, I just don't. I don't feel good about this anymore. And so each time I'm like, Take a break, you know, like you. We need your books, but forget it. You know it's it's hard, and it's

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Lisa Schmid: I remember when I had my debut book come out, and I I should say I've had, you know, like I've had good experiences. But when my debut book came out I remember you were like I was just like, oh.

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Lisa Schmid: awesome, you know. And then, as you know, as I've gone through publishing as I've gone through the world like, I am like sitting in a rocking chair, smoking a cigarette like staring around like, yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: this is how it is, honey.

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Beth McMullen: Get off my lawn.

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Lisa Schmid: Like we were saying before we came on the air. We've entered our crony phase, and so

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Lisa Schmid: like I'll never forget. I remember you just looking at me like with dead eyes like

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Lisa Schmid: you have no idea.

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Beth McMullen: That's okay.

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Lisa Schmid: 1, 2.

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Beth McMullen: Innocent and cute and naive.

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Lisa Schmid: And I do like. Whenever I have a friend that debuts, I'm like, what?

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Lisa Schmid: Oh, my God! Look at you! You're so cute!

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Lisa Schmid: Call me, and.

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Beth McMullen: I mean people who are like so enthusiastic. And they're so excited. I'm like, Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: No.

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Beth McMullen: You know. Write it while you can, because reality is coming for you, my friend.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah. And it's, you know what? And we should think that there is a lot of joy in publishing. And a lot, we're just giving you a really dark side of it right now, because that.

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Beth McMullen: Oh, no, it's not a dark side, it is a. It is a real angle on it. Yeah, it is not everybody's experience, but it is the vast majority of people who are publishing in today's today's day and age. Right?

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Beth McMullen: But I also, I think what we need to remember is that writing and publishing are 2 different things.

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Beth McMullen: the writing. I always go back to the writing, because

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Beth McMullen: in my DNA I am absolutely a writer, and will be until the day I drop dead. That's just my reality. I can't not do it.

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Beth McMullen: but I am. I have learned over

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Beth McMullen: a lot of trial and error that I can separate the 2. So I can work on something because I love it. And it's fun. And it's a story I want to tell. And I'm thinking about it all the time. And I'm you know I'm I'm

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Beth McMullen: showing up at the page to write the book. I'm not thinking about selling it. I'm not thinking about the publishing process. I'm not thinking about the future of that book. I'm thinking about it right in the moment.

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Beth McMullen: and

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Beth McMullen: by doing that I am

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Beth McMullen: so happy to keep writing.

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Beth McMullen: Whether or not I publish that book

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Beth McMullen: is for later. I don't need to think about that until later, and maybe later, I decide, yeah, I'm I'm game. I'm gonna step back in. I know what the pitfalls are. I know the environment. I'm just gonna give it a go, or maybe I'm like, no, I don't ever want to share this with anybody. Or maybe I'm like, I'm going to self publish it because I have no idea how to do that. And wouldn't that be fun right.

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Lisa Schmid: Wow, it's like.

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Beth McMullen: You know.

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Lisa Schmid: Do that.

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Beth McMullen: I'm scared.

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Lisa Schmid: You know what you're good at figuring stuff out.

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Lisa Schmid: I have a panic attack when I have to.

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Lisa Schmid: But yeah.

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Beth McMullen: I think it's just like, if you love the writing, just try to keep them separate in your head.

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Lisa Schmid: And I, if you've had a bad experience, or you've just gone through a trying, you know, publication, experience. Then it's okay to take a break and regroup.

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Lisa Schmid: and that's sometimes it's just. You don't even need to be writing, because if you've gone through a bad experience, and the editorial was a mess, or whatever you do, get that burnout feeling where you're just like. I can't even like Pen to paper, or whatever I can't. I don't even know how to write anymore. My brain's too frazzled, and I hate everyone. And I'm just done and like I said, if you've ever been really hung over, and you're like I'm never drinking again.

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Lisa Schmid: And then suddenly you find Friday rolls around. You're like God, that glass of Chardonnay sounds really good. That's where you'll and you'll eventually get to that place again. Trust me.

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Beth McMullen: That is great. That is the perfect way to describe it.

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Lisa Schmid: Growing up. You're like, never again.

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Beth McMullen: This has been our unhinged episode, and we are happy. It is sponsored by 27 cups of coffee. If you cannot tell.

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Lisa Schmid: Oh, my God!

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Beth McMullen: Pretty funny. We have also been talking about. And this is kind of related.

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Beth McMullen: We are going to be starting a private Facebook group

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Beth McMullen: associated with writers, with wrinkles, and it will be a place to come and talk about writing and writing, only we're gonna just keep it, you know, we're not gonna

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Beth McMullen: go off into

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Beth McMullen: discussions about travel, or you know, kids, school or pets. We're going to talk about writing and writing. Only

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Beth McMullen: Lisa and I will establish some sort of office hours with that, so we'll be live on occasion in there for people to just come hang out.

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Beth McMullen: So it's for questions. It's for meeting other writers.

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Beth McMullen: I honestly feel like I just finished this accountability thing, that I was kind of experimenting with my book coaching, and

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Beth McMullen: a lot of times. Questions that you have. Burning questions are well answered by your fellow writers. Somebody else has had that experience, and they can tell you what they did. And maybe that gives you some ideas about what you should do. So

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Beth McMullen: when that is ready to go, it's going to be in our podcast notes, so we will keep you posted on that, and of course we'll send it out on our socials. A note on our socials.

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Beth McMullen: We have left Twitter X, whatever it's called. So you can find us on Facebook. You can find us on threads, Instagram and blue sky, and Lisa's really good at showing up in all of those places. So if you have something you want to discuss, or thoughts, or whatever find us there.

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Beth McMullen: and

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Beth McMullen: what else any final thoughts.

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Lisa Schmid: You know what? Just I think it's

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Lisa Schmid: just time to move forward, you know. That's it's been a crazy year so far. Where? Where are we? We're in November. Yeah, it's been a crazy year.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm just like, I'm sure.

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Beth McMullen: Has.

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Lisa Schmid: Too much has happened.

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Beth McMullen: Lisa and I are proud to say we each have about a dozen new wrinkles, so now it's like riders with many, many wrinkles.

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Lisa Schmid: I like, I said. I've entered my, the crony.

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Beth McMullen: Please.

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Lisa Schmid: I'm just.

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Beth McMullen: We're in our crone era.

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Lisa Schmid: I feel like I've aged like 10 years in the last week, and

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Lisa Schmid: I'm I look like I'm a hot mess. I am a hot mess, and.

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Beth McMullen: Look like a hot mess. I could see you when you look beautiful. Don't listen to Lisa.

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Lisa Schmid: With my hourglasses.

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Beth McMullen: I know she's like peering at me through her owl glasses, which I love because I love owls, anyway. Now we're getting wildly off track. So, listeners, that is it for today's episode. We hope this will help you navigate the choppy waters of publishing, and

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Beth McMullen: next no, not next week. We are back on November 25th with Episode 39, and we will be talking to Vicki Weber, who is a literary agent at creative media agency and a bestselling author.

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Beth McMullen: So if you want to join us for that, please tune in, and until then.

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Beth McMullen: happy reading, writing, and listening.

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Beth McMullen: Bye, Lisa.

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Lisa Schmid: Bye, bye, guys.

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Beth McMullen: Say that again. I didn't hear you.

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Lisa Schmid: Bye, Beth, bye, guys.