Faith on the Plate: Navigating Veganism Through Culture & Religion

In this eye-opening episode of "Who's Judging?", your favorite vegan podcast, hosts Dani and Connor delve into the intriguing intersection of veganism, religion, and culture. Joining them for this enlightening conversation are special guests Miguel and Alvan, both devout Catholics, as they explore the diverse perspectives within their shared faith.

In a unique twist, Dani, another practicing Catholic, and Connor, straddling the line between atheism and agnosticism, bring their distinct viewpoints to the table. Together, they navigate the complex landscape of how religious beliefs and cultural backgrounds shape individuals' choices and attitudes towards veganism.

Delving into the heart of the matter, the episode explores how different religions view animals — examining whether animals are seen as existing "for us" or "with us." Through thoughtful conversations, the hosts and guests provide insights into the diverse ways in which religious teachings shape attitudes towards animal welfare.

In a cultural exploration, Miguel and Dani, both Hispanic, share how cultural backgrounds influence their approach to veganism. Alvan, hailing from a Chaldean/Middle Eastern background, adds another layer to the discussion, demonstrating how cultural traditions can impact one's relationship with food and ethical choices.

The episode unfolds as a celebration of shared values and respectful dialogue. Listeners will gain valuable insights into the diverse ways in which individuals, rooted in various cultural and religious backgrounds, can find common ground in the pursuit of compassion for animals.

Transcript

[00:17] Dani: Hi, and welcome back to the Who's Judging podcast. I'm Dani.

[00:19] Connor: I'm Connor. 

[00:21] Miguel: Miguel

[00:23] Alvan: Alvan

[00:25] Connor: And so today we're going to be talking about real religions and cultures, effects and relationship on veganism. So just, first off, just tell everyone who you are, your culture, your religion, everything like that.

[00:34] Miguel: Okay. My name is Miguel Osuna, Connor's friend. Born, raised Catholic.

[00:42] Alvan: I'm Alvan Korgees, originally Middle Eastern from Iraq, and I am a Catholic as well.

[00:50] Connor: So what are your personal views on veganism?

[00:57] Alvan: As a bodybuilder, I need a lot of protein to maintain my growth, and so honestly, I respect the people who are vegan because of their sacrifices.

[01:14] Connor: All right, just don't worry. This is Who's Judging, so we'll judge you off camera. All right. What about you, Miguel?

[01:24] Miguel: I personally think it's a great thing, the strength that you guys have. And like I said, I am not vegan, but I do commend it. It's really great. It's saving the environment, pro animals, pro choice in many ways. And one day maybe I would consider switching to it, but I'm unsure at the moment, but I would cut little habits out and I'm for it.

[01:48] Dani: Can I ask, do you practice religion?

[01:50] Miguel: I do.

[01:51] Dani: Like you are practicing.

[01:53] Miguel: I grew up in a Catholic household. My mom went to Catholic school, I went to Catholic school. I go to church every Sunday. Went today. And I try to be the best person I can, but I am not perfect, but I do try and I keep Heavenly Father in my heart every day.

[02:10] Dani: Do you practice religion?

[02:13] Alvan: My family is very religious, but as a person, I do pray at times, but I'm not very religious myself.

[02:20] Connor: Okay, so in terms of in your views on veganism, do you guys think that your religion and your culture affect how you see it?

[02:28] Miguel: I personally do not think so. As we know, fish and other proteins were eaten back in the days, but I think the cruelty is probably what we need to cut out for sure.

[02:42] Connor: Right.

[02:43] Dani: Do you remember anything being said at church regarding that?

[02:48] Miguel: As far as veganism?

[02:49] Connor: I do not. Do you think it normalizes eating the meat and the dairy?

[02:55] Miguel: No, it really does. At least I haven't picked anything up.

[03:00] Connor: What about you?

[03:01] Alvan: So we have something similar to being vegan? Well, not specifically, but we do have a 50 day fasting period, and so that is before Easter, of course. And so in these 50 days, you're not supposed to be eating any types of meats or anything, but seafood. Fish is an exception. It is somewhat part of the religion. So it's very similar. If you do do the 50 days that is going out of your way for God or it doesn't have to be specifically food. It can be other things that you can put down for 50 days.

[03:43] Dani: So it's like a sacrifice?

[03:44] Alvan: Yeah. And yeah, some people do it for longer than 50 of course.

[03:51] Dani: I just realized we didn't say our religion.

[03:54] Connor: Okay, I'll let you go first.

[03:56] Dani: Well, I was raised Catholic, too, like you both. I just don't practice Catholicism anymore. I don't consider myself to be a part of the Catholic Church either. I practice customs. I think it's more of a cultural thing for me, like baptism, things like that. Yeah.

[04:12] Connor: You're going to get married in the church?

[04:14] Dani: Yeah, I'm going to get married in the church. I think for me, it's more of a cultural thing as we come now.

[04:21] Connor: Well, I think this is what everyone's awaiting for. I am a half atheist, half agnostic. I do believe there's something so not atheist. It's a balance between not I'm never going to know which one it is because I don't have that blind faith that some people do.

[04:38] Dani: Yeah.

[04:38] Connor: And then the other half, me, also, doesn't care. I know there is a creator. I just don't care who it is at the end of the day. So that's that moving on. Are there any traditional dishes in your guys'culture that are vegan?

[04:54] Miguel: We eat a lot of rice. Being Hispanic, half Mexican, half Filipino, we eat a lot of rice.

[05:00] Dani: Very similar cultures there. It's, like, both the same, but not yeah.

[05:06] Connor: What about you, Alvin?

[05:08] Alvan: Yeah, of course. So we have what we call Dolmo. It's like the most famous food. It's the green wrap around the rice, and then you could put veggies in there and stuff like that.

[05:18] Dani: Oh, yes, I know. It's a very like the grape.

[05:21] Alvan: Yeah, the grape leaf. Yeah, that's correct.

[05:23] Dani: Those are so nice. They're so good.

[05:25] Connor: All right, so out of all the dishes, let's say you're hypothetically vegan. If there was one of your traditional dishes that you could make vegan, which one would it be? Well, it would be like assume it's possible.

[05:38] Alvan: Obviously the same food I was talking about right now. They do put meats inside. So that's the one where you can convert into not putting any meats in there. Yeah, that's one of the meals. I would say the rest. Yeah.

[05:55] Connor: Is that a dish that you wish was vegan in a world that you were vegan?

[06:00] Miguel: I mean, I do like menudo, but I have the cop out of saying we have a lot of bean burritos, rice, tortillas, anything that most of the Hispanic tradition mexican tradition is essentially other than if you cut the meat out, you can still eat a lot of it.

[06:15] Dani: Manula is, like, impossible.

[06:16] Miguel: I know all it is, but that's the one. If I could change it, I would.

[06:20] Dani: Yeah.

[06:21] Connor: You're a cook. How would you try to tackle it?

[06:23] Dani: I haven't even tried.

[06:25] Connor: What would you think? What would your process be?

[06:28] Dani: Honestly, I just do a soy.

[06:30] Connor: Soy?

[06:31] Dani: Yeah. But then it's a soy stew. It's because manula is such a difficult thing because it's the beef stomach and the texture is really yeah, see, that's.

[06:47] Connor: Why this is the perfect set up for an episode. The vegan cook, the eater.

[06:53] Miguel: I eat anything perfect. But the homily is good for you because they're like the cornuts.

[06:57] Dani: The corn?

[06:58] Miguel: Yeah, just imagine cornuts, but inside of a sweet.

[07:01] Connor: All right?

[07:01] Dani: Not crunchy.

[07:03] Connor: So within your religion and cultural communities, how well do you think people understand what vegan is and what veganism is?

[07:11] Miguel: At least I belong to St. Anthony's Church in National City. I believe everyone does understand what it is. Like I said, in no way, shape or form. We're not condoning any cruelty to animals and it is a choice that if you want to eat it like Alvin was saying, there are benefits to eating some forms of meat, but there are alternatives to protein. So if you cut it out entirely, you can have the same lifestyle.

[07:36] Connor: I believe I'm just asking because sometimes a lot of people don't fully understand and that's how they get the perceptions about it.

[07:42] Miguel: Yeah, I believe most people, they know it's in line with being vegetarian, but then once you throw animals in there, then they'll understand it a little bit more.

[07:51] Dani: Yeah.

[07:52] Connor: How about you?

[07:53] Alvan: What was the question again?

[07:54] Connor: Just like within your cultural community and religious community, do you think they understand what vegan and veganism is?

[08:02] Alvan: Yeah, I think most people do understand. Just like Miguel said, they're very well aware of what that is. But I think there's a term where people say we only live once and people ignore the fact you say, I.

[08:15] Connor: Think there's a term yeah, through yolo. The most dead term ever out there. A man throwing yolo.

[08:25] Alvan: Most people yeah. Choose to ignore.

[08:28] Connor: In what ways do you think that we can work towards creating a more sustainable and ethical food system while also respecting your guys'cultural beliefs and religious beliefs? Okay.

[08:39] Miguel: I believe if once people are adapted to the alternatives like the other day you had me try vegan version of tuna. It doesn't taste any different.

[08:49] Dani: Was it canned?

[08:50] Miguel: It was actually what is it called again? It was the one when you told me to get at Walmart.

[08:55] Connor: I remember we looked it up.

[08:56] Dani: I remember just Walmart. Walmart's out here carrying vegan tuna. Yeah, he didn't even tell me.

[09:02] Connor: You see, we were drunk, we were doing it and we made a bet. I was like, if you try the vegan tuna and you like it just like cut out tuna. Because that's what I'm saying. People don't reach out and try it and so they don't know that it's like super similar.

[09:17] Dani: What's the main addance? Probably you didn't even check.

[09:21] Connor: No, I picked a popular one and we're like, we're going to try this one.

[09:24] Miguel: It has like it was really good, actually. Yeah.

[09:27] Connor: Did you get one can or was.

[09:28] Miguel: Like the three I got the three pack. Yeah.

[09:30] Connor: So which one was the best?

[09:31] Miguel: The salted one. Yeah, but they were all really good. But since Connor's, my friend we've been hanging out with Loving Hut and all these places.

[09:39] Dani: Oh, loving Hut.

[09:40] Miguel: It doesn't taste any different, to be honest. And if you're just open to the idea of something that's plant based, it's actually really good.

[09:48] Dani: Definitely. Filipino food, I think, is easily also vegan. Right.

[09:53] Miguel: It's just the lumbias would have some kind of meat in it, depending on which chicken adobo. Yeah, I think Mexican would be easier to tailor to vegan versus the Filipino side. A lot of things do have chicken or meat. Beef, fish, balloon.

[10:14] Alvan: I agree.

[10:15] Connor: Any other ideas on how we could like it's supposed to be maybe tailored to your culture and religion in terms of how we can respect those views while still moving more towards a sustainable food system?

[10:28] Alvan: How we could help.

[10:32] Connor: In terms of how can we move the world more vegan while still respecting your beliefs rather than just putting ours on top of yours?

[10:40] Alvan: I see. Okay. I'm not sure what ways I could say, but I believe advertising is one thing, letting the people know what the alternative ways are to a change. Now, keep in mind, most people, they don't get out of their comfort bubble, so they like to continue doing what they usually do. But advertise and offer things is one way to get people's attention and try to tell as many people as possible. And from there, that's how it goes.

[11:16] Connor: Well, Taylor, to your religion, can you explain what both is?

[11:21] Dani: What?

[11:22] Connor: He knows what it is. I looked it up. It's one of their religious practices. It's close to what you were saying earlier, but it's like a lot shorter. Fast.

[11:30] Dani: Oh, correct.

[11:32] Alvan: Yeah, it's a fasting period. And I believe it's the one before.

[11:39] Connor: Sorry, I cannot keep it straight.

[11:40] Dani: Paste.

[11:42] Alvan: It's the one before Easter?

[11:44] Connor: Yeah.

[11:45] Dani: Is it three days?

[11:47] Alvan: I believe so, yeah.

[11:49] Connor: From what I saw, it's three days. With the first one, you fast until noon, and then the remaining two and a half days, you have to abstain from meat and dairy, I believe is what it was.

[12:00] Alvan: Correct.

[12:02] Miguel: Sounds about right.

[12:04] Dani: Yeah, because my family does that, too. But I don't think dairy is in it. So, yeah, no dairy, but no meat. You can have meat for those three days.

[12:15] Miguel: Is this part of the Lenten season?

[12:18] Dani: Yeah. Is that what you so no animal products?

[12:23] Miguel: I try to refrain. They give us a free pass on Fridays, essentially, so we try to go for seafood. But like I said, little sacrifices. I love pizza, so during Lent, I just have cheese pizza just to take or veggie.

[12:38] Connor: So from what I saw, with both, it aligns with repentance, gratitude, and compassion. Does that sound right?

[12:47] Miguel: Yes.

[12:47] Connor: Okay. So my question was, what do you think stops Chaldeans from adopting a vegan lifestyle? If essentially what you're saying is doing that abstaining from meat and dairy products shows gratitude to God and it repents your sins and it shows compassion. So why do you think that doesn't extend longer than the three days?

[13:10] Alvan: Because where we come from, it's basically very similar to the catch and hunt know, I don't know, eat over there. In the Middle East, what they do is everything is very natural. Nothing is like chemical made, factory made or anything. Everything is bought live and then killed back at home. And people doing that over and over centuries, they've gotten used to doing the same thing, and so they enjoy the lifestyle of being a little overweight and eating these foods filled with fats.

[13:58] Dani: It's different in the US.

[14:00] Connor: So it's culture heavy.

[14:02] Alvan: Yeah, correct.

[14:05] Dani: Yeah. That puts into perspective. I think it's like mainly a US problem.

[14:11] Miguel: I agree.

[14:12] Connor: It could, yeah. But the problem is that we spread it. So now we're like fishing their fish out of the ocean, then moving on to a similar question for you. Is the concept of sanctity of life, which is the belief that all life is sacred and valuable and that we have a responsibility to protect and preserve it. In Christianity, this belief is often associated with the belief that humans are made in the image of God. With this in mind, how does this belief in the sanctity of life relate to the treatment of animals? Do you believe that animals have inherent value on worth or that their value is based solely on their usefulness to humans?

[14:51] Miguel: I believe they have other value, not just as food. Like I said, we are all given the opportunity to live similar to plants as well, that we're all living in some way, shape and form. I believe that mistreating them and harming them. That's what I would say is definitely a no. But it's not really a sin to eat animals, even though sometimes the way you have to, I would say execute them in order to catch them. So that would be the negative downside for me. But I do believe if we can cut some kind of animal eating out, it would be beneficial, essentially.

[15:31] Connor: So in your view, what is that? What is the animal cutout that you would form?

[15:36] Miguel: Which one do you think producing? Like I said, I'm going to go back to what Alvin said, just advertising other alternatives to vegan foods and just kind of moving to a greener planet, essentially. I think that would be a good solution.

[15:49] Connor: So which alternative have you tried that did you like the most if you had to pick one?

[15:54] Miguel: I mean, I like the alternative to bacon, the pig and pork.

[16:02] Connor: Which alternative? No, which alternative have you tried? I'm saying like a beyond burger or like the tune of the yeah, no.

[16:08] Miguel: I'm just saying the whole pork category in general. I thought it was good vegan bacon.

[16:15] Connor: Did I give you some of that?

[16:17] Dani: He doesn't even remember.

[16:19] Connor: I get the BLT at Loving Hut.

[16:22] Miguel: He gave you the love at the Hut.

[16:26] Connor: I'm going to take you to Loving Hut next.

[16:30] Miguel: All right.

[16:30] Connor: So as vegans, at least me, probably her, too, we've had moments where something non vegan tempted us, maybe even earlier on in the journey. So I was wondering, during your fast, I think both Lent and then both again, has anything ever tempted you during that period?

[16:50] Miguel: Of course. Yeah.

[16:51] Connor: What was the biggest one for you?

[16:53] Miguel: I mean, just being accessible to fast food, it's kind of very hard, me being an obese person, and I am tempted by food, and when you see something in the United States, we have easy accessibility to it. It just becomes so hard. But I do stick to my traditions. If I'm giving something up, 40 days, but I do the 50, I do my best, and I don't break it.

[17:15] Dani: So the whole 50 days, you don't have any meat products?

[17:17] Miguel: No.

[17:17] Connor: Except for Fridays, right?

[17:19] Miguel: No, actually. Okay, so Fridays is essentially they give you seafood, but Sundays is the one day you could cheat. But I don't cheat on it. I don't know.

[17:27] Dani: Wait, but you can have seafood the.

[17:28] Connor: 50 days on Friday?

[17:30] Miguel: On Fridays? Yes.

[17:31] Dani: So you go 50 days without any sort of meat product or seafood? Just Fridays?

[17:37] Miguel: Just Fridays.

[17:38] Connor: You can do seafood Fridays within the 50 days?

[17:40] Dani: Yeah.

[17:40] Miguel: Well, the thing is, you can eat meat, but it's more if you want to elevate it to a different level, you would sacrifice everything.

[17:47] Dani: So you do that?

[17:48] Miguel: I do that.

[17:49] Connor: You're just showing a bigger sacrifice.

[17:51] Miguel: Yes.

[17:51] Dani: So what did it feel like for you doing? I mean, you've been doing it for years. I can imagine. So what does it feel like for you?

[17:59] Miguel: I mean, it's just the sacrifice of God.

[18:01] Dani: Is it a daily sacrifice for you?

[18:03] Miguel: It is. It's hard. It's naturally get hungry, but I want to stay forward with the religion, and if God sacrificed and died for my sins, I want to do my same to give it back. Reciprocated relationship.

[18:15] Connor: So you don't like struggle going to bed? You get those night sweats? Like, I need the in and out?

[18:19] Miguel: No, actually, I do miss it, so I kind of eat a little bit more when Lent is over, but I just make sure to eat as much as I can with snacks and everything.

[18:29] Connor: You said I skip for the 50 days, but I make it up in the next 310.

[18:34] Miguel: I do.

[18:34] Dani: And how does it feel like after, like, that first meat product?

[18:40] Miguel: It's really good.

[18:41] Dani: Yeah? You don't feel like, sick or anything?

[18:43] Miguel: No, I don't.

[18:44] Dani: Okay.

[18:45] Connor: It's interesting.

[18:46] Miguel: If anything, it makes you cherish it a little bit more because the taste that you've been craving is exactly what you've been looking for.

[18:53] Connor: I just think she was asking because she was wondering if your body kind of adapted during those 50 days where, like, the first one kind of made.

[18:59] Dani: Yeah.

[18:59] Miguel: Oh, yeah. No, I didn't feel any different. I was hoping to lose weight, but I didn't.

[19:04] Connor: Come on.

[19:05] Miguel: I eat snacks.

[19:06] Dani: Are you having, like, dairy?

[19:08] Miguel: I do, yes.

[19:09] Dani: Yeah, that won't help with the weight loss.

[19:11] Connor: Yeah. When was like, the first year that you remember doing it? I'm sure you've been doing it the whole time.

[19:16] Miguel: But when's I went I started conscious Catholic school when I was eight years old. No, actually, no, correction. It was seven in first grade.

[19:24] Connor: So what was that first year like? The first year you had to go to 50 days?

[19:27] Miguel: My parents gave me a little bit of a pass, so it was more lenient, but we're going to try to stick on course. And as I got older, I did adapt to it.

[19:35] Connor: So you went in slowly?

[19:37] Miguel: Yeah, I believe. Yeah. I think once I got to 6th grade, let's just say, what, 14 years old, I was like, hey, I think I'm old enough to start doing this, and became a sacrifice. And then I gave up other things with it, like chocolate. Some years I gave up alcohol, chips. Things are the hardest. You only have to give that up for 40 days. So imagine me going up without hot cheetos for 40 days. It's truly a sacrifice.

[20:03] Connor: I'm having a harder time seeing the alcohol for 50 days.

[20:06] Miguel: I've done that before, too, and it's really tough. And I've fulfilled what I needed to.

[20:12] Connor: Is that like the meat, like the 50 days after you binge alcohol to catch up?

[20:17] Miguel: Drinking isn't so much because I'm more of a social drinker.

[20:21] Dani: Yeah, like the event is difficult. Yeah.

[20:24] Connor: Respect.

[20:25] Dani: Same with when we're as vegans, going to events and stuff, that's the difficult part. Yeah, because there's no food for us.

[20:32] Connor: She's better than me. I just sit in the corner and starve. She's known better and she brings stuff.

[20:37] Dani: Oh, yeah, I'm not going to starve.

[20:39] Connor: It was what? Berto's baby. Like? I'm just like, sitting at a table and she's like, the donuts are vegan. I was like, what? I was like, well, let me walk over there and grab everything, all the.

[20:49] Miguel: Donuts, not to gain two pounds.

[20:50] Connor: I was like, So there's six of them, I'm going to grab four. I'm a nice person. Two for everybody else. What about you? You ever had something like an item that you struggled with temptation wise while you were on your fast?

[21:04] Alvan: Yeah, I have.

[21:07] Connor: So this is the part where you go, this is exactly what it was.

[21:11] Dani: What was it for you?

[21:14] Miguel: Let me guess. Is it green?

[21:16] Connor: I was like, I got to give up the weed.

[21:22] Alvan: Yeah, it's temptation.

[21:24] Miguel: But.

[21:28] Connor: Are there, like, specific foods that you is there the fast?

[21:34] Alvan: One thing is cursing, and I tried to refrain from doing that. And so during the fast, it has happened occurred, and it's not a good thing.

[21:47] Connor: I have what this man missed most during this fast and said I could say the F bomb, man. That's crazy.

[21:55] Alvan: I just don't want to say other.

[21:56] Connor: Stuff he said, not public. All right, so for us, being asked why we're vegan is always a fun time. We'll say what do you guys say when someone asks you why you're Catholic or why you're part of that religion instead of the other ones?

[22:14] Alvan: Well, because maybe we are born into it, and that's what our parents wanted for us. That's how we were raised. So I don't see how you can choose. But maybe later on life when you realize you like something else and you switch into something else, it's completely up to you.

[22:34] Dani: You don't feel defensive when they ask.

[22:36] Alvan: You that I'm Catholic? No, because everybody has a different view.

[22:43] Connor: I guess, kind of building in a different point of view on that question is like, what do you say when people ask why you're Catholic? Or have you never been asked that?

[22:52] Alvan: It's a very rare question. But I would say because I went to church ever since I was very young. I was baptized in the church. I went to church ever since the day I was baptized, every week. And so I liked the works of God. And so that's the reason why not just being born into know, because I am here today and I'm still Catholic.

[23:22] Connor: So for you, what would you say if someone asked you why you're Catholic?

[23:25] Miguel: I wouldn't take offense to it. I have the similar response as Alvin. I was born into it, but I have no objections against it. I believe religion is a true freedom of choice and speech, so you can't judge anyone for having any preference. The only time I've actually ever been questioned is during Ash Wednesday. I walk around work with ashes on my forehead and people are like, why is your head's black? Your forehead is black. And you just let them know that this is a sacrifice and I'm practicing my religion, and just because I want to do it, it doesn't make me any different. Just questioning, why would you do that? Why would you purposely look dirty? But I'm not going to judge their beliefs.

[24:07] Connor: Wasn't there something that happened at work, like last year or this year with.

[24:10] Miguel: That that's almost every year. Every year, yeah. And I understand that not everyone's religious, so I believe if I'm respecting you, it should be you respect me back. Because I'm practicing what I like, what Alvin said, what I believe in, and I hold it very closely in my heart.

[24:28] Dani: So has somebody said something about it?

[24:30] Miguel: Yeah, I mean, just some that aren't really as religious. They just would question, why are you doing like, you don't have to be. Not everyone's holy, but it's not coming.

[24:38] Connor: From a curious perspective. It's like judgmental.

[24:41] Miguel: You think in some way, yes, but you just have to shrug that off and just keep doing what you do.

[24:48] Connor: Not much more you could do.

[24:49] Miguel: Yeah.

[24:50] Connor: Take them to HR. Religious discrimination. So you go to your friend's church too, right?

[24:58] Miguel: Yeah. No, I forgot to mention that, too. I'm born, raised Catholic. I have pretty much all the sacraments. I abide by the Ten Commandments. But my friend that I've known the longest, he's a pastor at New Horizons Church, which is Christian. And the difference is that you can get married, have kids. As a pastor versus Catholic, you have to pretty much absence is everything that's so crazy. So it's like even the thought of ******* over the opposite a woman would be a sin for a priest. So that's why he went to be a pastor for Christian church. So I do like, a zebra approach. I do Catholic, Christian, Catholic, Christian, but I still go to some form of a mass every week.

[25:41] Connor: So how's that experience been? Does it feel awkward or a little different than going to both at this?

[25:46] Miguel: It doesn't, but I talked to my mom about it. Like I said, this is something that maybe she's judging, but she's open to it, that we've been Catholic so long that maybe she feels, if this is a hot take, that Christian. It's more of like a party. And it's not really the religious experience, but it's more of just party because.

[26:05] Dani: They'Re not as strict.

[26:06] Connor: Yeah, the pastors can get married. Oh, my goodness, no.

[26:10] Miguel: But if you've gone to a Christian service, they're very beautiful, nice. But it's like a party. Like, there's music, it's a celebration. There's people joking around and having fun. And Catholic is very quiet, and you have to listen.

[26:23] Connor: Let me write that down. You said it's like a party.

[26:25] Miguel: Yeah. Go to the Rock. New Horizons and also the Rock. That's where he started out as The Rock. And then he went to New Horizons party.

[26:35] Connor: One party. So what do you think about some Catholic leaders speaking out? Some have actually spoken out against veganism, arguing that's a form of neo paganism. So we're trying to make our own religion.

[26:48] Miguel: Like I said, I can't really vouch for what they say. I feel like a lot of the things from the you know, we've seen negatives with I don't want to throw in, like, altar boys and stuff, but I don't agree with a lot of the things that the Pope might condone. I feel like that is the complete opposite of what Catholic is Catholicism is about. But I believe, like I said, this could get a little icy. But I believe that some things at the Vatican, they're not necessarily being upheld. And I feel like there's things under the table that are happening that we don't really condone. And speaking against politics and a lot of things I don't agree with. Some of the stuff the Pope says.

[27:30] Connor: Do you think he's kind of speaking out of his own personal beings?

[27:34] Miguel: It becomes personal and that you question that a person of high faith would really say some things that are very like I said, it's political, it's controversial, and I don't know, it's just something also, I was up in holding it. Something that worked, that we dealt with, is that we needed the COVID vaccine. The Pope was the one that said that no Catholic is going to get any exemption, right?

[28:00] Connor: He said that there was nothing in there that would have exempted for the.

[28:03] Miguel: Religion, and there was a chance for it to get there. But the Pope is the one that denied it, and that's a freedom of choice, and he denied a freedom of choice.

[28:12] Connor: I can't believe you didn't get an exemption. You know me, I'm just sitting over here like, look who's religious now. Yeah, this dude's been religious his whole life. And they were like, no exemption.

[28:21] Miguel: I threw in, like, scriptures, books, chapters and verse and everything, and I got shut down.

[28:26] Connor: I wrote a book report, like, pre chat GBT. Like, I wrote a book report on it. I was like, this is why I don't think I should get it.

[28:32] Dani: This is what this submit something?

[28:35] Connor: Yeah, I submitted one, and then they were like, I don't know if you want to write a little more. And I was like I took that as like, that's not passing. I wrote, like, a page and a half more. My whole argument surrounded, because the whole thing is they kind of denied everyone that got the first initial two and then didn't want the booster because the booster was mandated. And so my whole argument went around, if you deny me this exemption, you're saying there's a wrong time to find God, because maybe I wasn't religious for.

[29:00] Dani: The first two, and they still denied me.

[29:04] Connor: So me and him got a one week unpaid vacation, and then I missed those $800 coming into my bank account biweekly. And I was like, all right. And you know what? I lost it again. Just poke me real quick. Money talk.

[29:19] Miguel: Yeah, I went back to work just purely. I was like, yeah, I have rent to pay. I'm starting to feel it because I thought, I can use my sick and PTO time. And they're like, no, you're fully suspended. You can't use anything. Like, you just lost seven days of work. And I was like, what? You just lost it?

[29:34] Alvan: So did you guys end up getting the COVID vaccine?

[29:37] Connor: Yeah, I think we work here, man.

[29:39] Miguel: Okay, so what happened is I held out for a total of ten days, but that was seven days of work. Three days later, they actually lifted that. The government said, you no longer need it. So if I would have held out three more days, I wouldn't have got the booster.

[29:54] Dani: I'm curious to know why you didn't want it.

[29:59] Connor: My response for Sharp or my personal response?

[30:01] Dani: No, your personal.

[30:02] Connor: I don't like needles.

[30:04] Dani: Oh, okay.

[30:05] Connor: That's pretty much it.

[30:06] Dani: Okay. And then yours, I can guess. Catholic Church, what they're saying about it.

[30:10] Connor: Do you think yours actually what, like, you had a religious argument for it or just no, actually, it was in.

[30:15] Miguel: Some way, it was personal, but my brother is actually a molecular biologist, and I personally know what was in the vaccine, and I would rather not say it what's in it, but anyone would be against it.

[30:28] Connor: But was it more of your argument also just kind of like it infringed on your personal right to be able.

[30:34] Miguel: To say it all? Like I said, the religion isn't against any vaccines, but it was more personally that they only did, like, a year of research on it, so we really don't know what was being pumped in the body. Are they giving you the virus? Are they giving you this? There's a lot of controversy that could surround the shot, and you could talk to my father about that.

[30:56] Connor: Your father has a strong opinion on it.

[30:59] Miguel: Yeah, my parents do. They're both unvaccinated, so I believe what's right. My mom, she's a catechism teacher, which is she gives her time to help elderly people going to their appointments, and she teaches Catholicism to kids in high school for free, and that's what she likes to do. And I support what my mom says, and if she doesn't want it, I still had to get it because of work, but I personally didn't want it either.

[31:28] Connor: Right, so you wouldn't have got it, though?

[31:30] Miguel: I wouldn't have got it, no. I was pretty much given the corner, if you don't get this shot, you're fired. And we both signed our paperwork that we were essentially fired until you get it.

[31:39] Connor: I sent a little e card, the thank you card, to every single one of the workers. I was, like, the most dramatic person. I was hoping that they'd be like, oh, he's such a strong part of our journey.

[31:49] Dani: Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious.

[31:51] Connor: I'm, like, sitting there on my last day in the Boss.

[31:53] Dani: You're just a number. Come on.

[31:56] Connor: We were sitting there with The Boss, and she was like, you have to sign paper. She was like, It's clear that you know the people very well and you care about them. And I was like, So let's just pretend I sign in the papers. Let's go. Like, come on. So then I walked back in after I got it, and I'm like, hey, everyone, I said bye and thank you to five days ago. Welcome back.

[32:16] Dani: So I have a question for you. You mentioned that we don't know what is in the vaccine because it was so quick that it came out and all these things, and I'm not even don't take this as an offense, but it's a legit question. Do you question what's in your food? Like, what's in your meat and your chicken and all that? Have you done research on it?

[32:37] Miguel: I have. I know that some of the I guess where the plantations where the cows are and chickens that they're mistreated all the time. I understand that. We see pictures and going into PETA's arguments and stuff like that. I know that there's companies like what's it called? I don't want to say. Tyson. I don't want to say anything.

[32:58] Dani: It's fine. Companies is fine.

[33:00] Miguel: Yeah. But some farms do treat their animals better. If you are going to eat them, at least it's grass fed. They have enough space. It's sanitary. I agree. For those. I support those.

[33:14] Dani: Then. But it's not so much so that you don't choose to not eat them. But it's not even just vegan food. I think it's like the United States thing as well. A lot of vegan packaged foods, I would say. We don't know a lot of what's in it, even. Could be like packaged rice processed, pretty much, yeah. So there's just so much that we don't know beyond anything that we put in our bodies, I think, right?

[33:41] Miguel: Yeah.

[33:41] Connor: That's what I think. People pass up on all the processed stuff. They're like it's processed. We don't know what's in it. But it's like the meat is the same thing. It's not like it goes from unless you get it locally, it's not like animal to the factory and then to your like a lot of them are sick and they just and they still sell the other meat that was still part of the sick animal.

[34:01] Dani: It's a whole issue.

[34:03] Connor: Yeah, it's because the big thing is there's really only four companies that sell most of the meat in the entire United States. It's like Tyson just owns a bunch of the smaller ones, and so it's like they control like 85 or 90% of all meat sold in the US.

[34:17] Miguel: It's my favorite, favorite brand.

[34:19] Connor: Tyson.

[34:19] Miguel: Yeah.

[34:21] Connor: We don't like Tyson. I know.

[34:25] Dani: Here we don't.

[34:27] Connor: I'm going to find when I'm editing, I'm going to find this part, and I'm just going to blurp out when you said Tyson's, my favorite brand.

[34:31] Miguel: Okay.

[34:33] Connor: We'd like to say a few words. Say the words. Happy.

[34:36] Miguel: Happy.

[34:36] Connor: Beyond.

[34:37] Miguel: Beyond.

[34:37] Connor: There we go. I'm just going to edit beyond into that slide. He's going to say beyond is my favorite company.

[34:42] Dani: Yeah, sure.

[34:46] Miguel: But can I say something? This is something that Alvin did say in other countries that we have more. Like when I went to visit my family in Mexico, if you wanted an animal, it's pretty much still basically alive. And you take it home, it could be dripping. Know, my uncle had a sheep still dripping blood, threw it over his shoulder, you could see exactly what it is. So I would highly doubt that anything else would be in it other than.

[35:16] Dani: It'S a natural animal.

[35:17] Miguel: And you can see what you're getting because you're taking it unskinned. It's natural.

[35:21] Dani: It was just unfortunately, that's not what it is here.

[35:24] Miguel: No, we have no idea what it.

[35:25] Dani: Is when it's packaged.

[35:27] Connor: But you have a good point. It's different in almost every other country.

[35:31] Miguel: Yeah, it's like if you want to.

[35:33] Connor: Fish same as us, but all like, further away from the US. Like, Canada is always same as us. I think Europe is pretty close to us. Yeah, but the smaller countries. The smaller yeah, and Mexico, because Mexico is not small.

[35:44] Miguel: Yeah, good point. But it's still a third world, and they still have old traditions that they.

[35:51] Dani: Abide by and they're healthier too. Yeah, that is why.

[35:56] Connor: Yeah, we just like our chips. Too much chips and soda.

[36:00] Dani: Sugar.

[36:01] Miguel: All right.

[36:02] Connor: So I guess the big question is a lot of people say that the Bible permits eating animals in terms of like, they're here, the animals are on Earth for us.

[36:11] Miguel: I do remember reading something or it was mentioned just we're here to coexist and that humans essentially would be like the primary being on Earth.

[36:23] Connor: So how do you interpret the readings? Is it more of like, they're here for us, so we eat them, or like, they're here and we're supposed to protect them and everyone on Earth and the environment.

[36:31] Miguel: The way I was told and the way I was brought up, that Adam and Eve were created as the first two beings and everything else was created around them. So if the pigs and goats and everything were essentially to aid Adam and Eve to spread into humanity.

[36:49] Connor: Fair.

[36:50] Miguel: I think Alvin wants to say something over.

[36:55] Dani: Good.

[36:56] Miguel: No, we both are Catholics, so it's good to hear a different side of it.

[36:59] Dani: Yeah. I mean, I was raised Catholic, but I haven't really heard anything regarding Bible.

[37:04] Connor: And I'm going to trust my resident expert over here. He's probably read the Bible backwards.

[37:12] Dani: Have you?

[37:13] Miguel: No.

[37:14] Dani: Have you read the Bible?

[37:15] Miguel: Yes, I have.

[37:16] Dani: Okay. Yeah, I haven't.

[37:17] Connor: How many times?

[37:18] Miguel: It's probably like just one solid time, but the interesting passages.

[37:22] Connor: Yes.

[37:23] Miguel: So anytime if you're having a bad day or something's bothering you, it's coincidental every time you just flip to a random page. The one thing you're looking for, coincidentally, happens to be that one sentence you read. Just give it a shot one day, like work sucked or maybe you hurt your arm or something and you feel really sad or going through a breakup or something. You just open a random page and what you need is right there on that page.

[37:48] Dani: I believe you for different reasons, but I believe you. It's pretty vague.

[37:53] Connor: I think that comes with more of a confirmation bias, like, whatever the you can kind of, like warp it into me. But that's still a good practice.

[38:01] Dani: Yeah, it is.

[38:02] Miguel: We have full faith in the practice and essentially we trust God with all our hearts and we're going with what's taught to us.

[38:11] Connor: So I guess this question kind of goes back to when I asked how we can respect people's religious beliefs and still move more towards a more vegan world because what this is saying is that the animals aren't here for us. And we're kind of saying the animals aren't here for us, they're here with us. So how do you think we kind of balance those two? Do you have any ideas? Because they're kind of conflicting beliefs.

[38:32] Miguel: Yeah, it is. And there's always going to be two sides of the story. We know that pigs are as you educated me one time, I listened to your podcast and that they're very smart and there's a lot of utility that other animals have not just as food, it just becomes a preference of whether you want to eat it or not. But they make great pets if you're willing to give it a chance.

[38:54] Connor: What about you? Can you think of any ways we can balance kind of like the religious belief that animals are here for us and kind of are like a vegan belief that animals are here with us, but not necessarily for us?

[39:11] Alvan: I think animals are here for us. Yeah.

[39:16] Connor: Do you think there's any way we can kind of move it more towards the middle? We have polar. This is like extremely right and extremely left. How do you think we move it more towards the middle in the belief system? Or do you think it's not possible?

[39:27] Alvan: I don't think it's possible.

[39:30] Dani: It's hard.

[39:31] Alvan: Every country does something different. For example, well, here in the United States, we don't eat dogs and cats. Keep in mind you have other countries.

[39:40] Miguel: Where.

[39:43] Alvan: Your average pet here at home is a dog. Their average meal is a dog.

[39:50] Connor: Right. So do you think that's a problem? Do you see a problem with eating dogs but not the cows?

[39:55] Alvan: I see a problem with eating dogs, but other people don't see it as a problem. For example, Muslims don't eat pig because pigs, they're really dirty, they eat everything and they're just known to be like a dirty animal in their perspective, which is respect. But what I'm trying to say is I don't think what you're saying is possible. Yeah.

[40:23] Connor: So why do you think it's wrong to eat dogs?

[40:25] Alvan: Why do I think it's wrong? Because here in our perspective, we see dog as an average pet at someone's home over there. They don't see it the same way. And if we saw their view and compare it to our view, we think, oh my God, that's that eating a dog.

[40:44] Connor: But do you think there's really any difference between eating a dog and eating a cow?

[40:50] Alvan: For me, yes. For other people, they might see it as both the same know, one great thing to eat to another great thing to.

[41:03] Miguel: I guess we could of like I believe I'm just going to kind of disagree with Alvin here. I believe fight. Like I said, every animal, it's a preference. I know it's culture, but like I said, dogs have feelings, pigs have feelings. I don't feel like it's necessarily wrong to eat one. It's more of a preference. But like I said, I personally tried animals I wish I never tried.

[41:31] Connor: It's just interesting. People are like, I can't believe the Chinese eat dogs and eat the cows. Like, you have to either be against both or for both. Or you could be a hypocrite. There's a third option.

[41:42] Dani: Well, it's what you grow up with, and it's hard to take yourself out of that.

[41:49] Connor: It's just because we've domesticated dogs more.

[41:51] Dani: Right.

[41:52] Connor: Like, they're everywhere, is what makes it harder.

[41:54] Dani: We can start domesticating pigs now, and I'm sure in hundreds of years, it'll.

[42:00] Connor: Be the smartest person here. That's what we got to start doing.

[42:02] Dani: We can do that, right?

[42:03] Connor: We're going to start a pig pet shop.

[42:05] Miguel: There you go.

[42:06] Connor: No shop.

[42:07] Dani: We're not selling pigs. What do you mean?

[42:10] Connor: Okay, we're selling the idea. Shop just sounds better. It's not going to be actual shop, but people will come if it says shop rather than adopt. You know what I mean? Why would I adopt a pig?

[42:25] Dani: Adopt a pig?

[42:26] Connor: We have to ease into changing their minds.

[42:28] Dani: Yeah.

[42:29] Connor: Would you adopt a pig from our not shop?

[42:33] Miguel: I would. The thing is, you need the proper space for them to live. We understand that pigs do like rolling in mud, sunscreen. They need hay.

[42:43] Dani: They need their space.

[42:44] Miguel: Yeah, they need space. So if you don't have the space, it has to be realistic to some point. Otherwise it would be inhumane.

[42:50] Connor: We'll get you one of those cute little pigs, the little ones you see trotting around on Instagram.

[42:54] Dani: To me, it's interesting, the people that own pet pigs, and then they eat pig. I just don't understand that.

[43:01] Miguel: It almost seems like you're just raising it just to kill it, but they don't.

[43:05] Dani: They really just raise what would be.

[43:07] Miguel: The difference between this pig?

[43:09] Dani: Exactly? Yeah.

[43:10] Connor: They named that one okay. This one is Oinks and that one's Bacon.

[43:15] Miguel: Okay. Well, let me ask you this. We know everything. Good things come to an end. It's the end of the cycle, and the pig is going to die. Would you bury it like a normal animal, or would you eat it? Would they eat it.

[43:30] Connor: Like those Instagram pages?

[43:32] Dani: They probably would bury it.

[43:33] Miguel: Okay.

[43:34] Dani: That's what I think a lot of people would do, because they let it live out its life.

[43:41] Connor: Especially if you let it live the whole time. How long do pigs live? We'll say ten years.

[43:47] Dani: I don't know.

[43:48] Connor: We'll say ten. It's a nice number. Like, you live with this pig for ten years, I don't think you're going to eat it just to the diet, because that's like an argument people get. Like, if you raised your own, would you eat them and die? Would you eat the eggs from the chicken while they laid them? But especially for that one. It's like, after ten years, I don't think you would. Would you?

[44:09] Miguel: No, because it becomes the fat, like a part. It's like I've had a cat that passed away. I didn't eat her, I buried her. It's a part of the family.

[44:20] Connor: They had to follow that up. As scientific discoveries continue to challenge certain aspects of religious beliefs in texts like the Bible and others, how do you navigate the tension between holding on to religious traditions and beliefs while also accepting integrating new information in light of those beliefs?

[44:39] Miguel: Well, like I said, at least what I'm picking up. I'm trying to be the best person I can. There's no discrimination on as far as they don't push eating meat necessarily. So I feel like if everything we go to the mass, there's nothing that infringes on my beliefs or anything that's even close to that realm. So I feel like everything's okay. Sorry, I don't know if I answered that 100%, but that was the first thought.

[45:07] Connor: Okay. All right, so someone of last question I have is that personally, I would argue that kindness, compassion, respect, and jealousy are some of the core values of religion. So my question is where do you find the slaughter of the beings to align with those values?

[45:23] Miguel: I disagree with the slaughtering, but like I said, I do. Unfortunately, I eat a lot of meat, and maybe it's going back to we were talking about our animals here for us or with us? We really don't know. I think it's just a different perspective that people carry, but I still think it's wrong.

[45:44] Dani: So why do you eat them? That's a good question. I'm serious. No, I do want to understand, and I think it's going to be different for everyone. Right.

[45:55] Miguel: I was just raised with food and my parents, we're kind of a big family as far as Obese, and so I was just given what I was given when I was a child, and I just adopted that into my lifestyle today.

[46:09] Connor: So what do you think happened along your path because you grew up in a Hispanic family too. Your culture is meat, dairy heavy, I think.

[46:16] Dani: Yeah.

[46:17] Connor: What do you think kind of changed your attire?

[46:19] Dani: So I always felt a connection to animals, and I think it's when I got my dogs that I realized I made that connection, that they're no different than cows and pigs and chickens, and I just didn't want to be a hypocrite about it. And that's why I decided to not continue consuming animals. I was like, there's no way that I'm going to just have a dog with me but then eat a cow. But with that being said, I just don't think that you can argue that cows and pigs don't have feelings and that it's morally correct to keep them in factories and eat them how we do. But I just have more respect for someone that says, yeah, it's a convenience thing and I want to do it because I want to because I want to eat my food, I can understand that. But when there's this disconnect in terms of just saying it's correct for me to do it, and they don't have feelings and it's fine that we do this, that is just what I don't agree with.

[47:37] Connor: So not to push Miguel, but just coming from a Hispanic upbringing, what kind of tips would you have for him, like, coming from that culture and know.

[47:45] Dani: He doesn't want to be vegan?

[47:46] Connor: I'm just saying, what for a Hispanic then, that wants to go vegan? Doesn't Miguel specifically?

[47:56] Dani: It's really easy to change our dishes to be vegan. I think there's a lot out there. It's not difficult at all. I mean, you just take out the meat and there you go. Or put soy up soy product or whatever. And culturally speaking, you're going to get a lot from family, which I do all the time, but it's fine. You just have to be strong, right.

[48:25] Connor: To come back to the original question, do you think that slaughtering the animals aligns with the religious beliefs of, like, compassion, kindness, respect? Do you think it aligns with those.

[48:39] Alvan: For certain religions? Yes, I believe so.

[48:45] Connor: But I mean, like, you personally, do you think it aligns with those beliefs, in your opinion? You don't have to be a politically correct here. No man of many words.

[49:03] Miguel: Can I say something, though? Yeah, go ahead. Like I said, I would be open to converting to vegan. One thing that we've had at the bar that we've talked about, I believe the price, as soon as they get it down to similar to the same value, rather than like an 80 X, like it's 80% markup. They're just saying 80 X. Oh, no, 80% markup. If it came relatively close, I believe more people would be willing to yeah. And like I said, not everyone has.

[49:32] Dani: The funds to be it's not accessible. Yeah. If you're trying to just have that same and we've talked about it in other episodes, if you're trying to have that same amount of the same dishes as close as you can get them, it's not going to be if you.

[49:46] Connor: Want the alternative, like the alternative meats.

[49:48] Dani: It'S not going to be cheap. Yeah. You'd have to do everything from scratch yourself for it to be accessible and more affordable. But that's with anything, I feel like.

[49:59] Connor: So do you think if it was more affordable that you would be more inclined to make the transition?

[50:05] Miguel: It'd be a lot easier. Like I said, I've enjoyed everything we've had that was plant based, and I don't have anything against it, and I do support it. I believe in the future I would eventually give it a shot or at least come down to half and half just to try to have a healthier.

[50:23] Connor: What'S half and a half, in your opinion?

[50:26] Miguel: You have to wean things out. You have to go half.

[50:28] Connor: I'm saying, like, in your half and half though, which would be the first ones to go?

[50:31] Miguel: I think taking meat out would be, in my opinion, just because it's the biggest, I would have to cut meat out just first.

[50:39] Connor: But it's definitely 50 50.

[50:42] Miguel: Yeah.

[50:42] Connor: I didn't know if you were going to cut, like, beef and keep chicken and then cut milk and keep cheese. This man just said meat out.

[50:51] Miguel: Yeah, I think that works. The one conversation we did have is for seafood. I don't eat enough of it, but the one I've been attracted to is the vegan tuna. I mean, it's really good. I honestly can't taste the difference, and I've been going to that more often. I've actually bought it, like, four times already.

[51:08] Connor: I'm glad it worked because that one was hard for me. He was like, tuna, and then I was like, I've never had vegan tuna.

[51:14] Dani: Yeah, me, I bought a can, actually, but I haven't tried it.

[51:17] Connor: Interesting. What is it called? Like tuno or something?

[51:20] Dani: Tuno?

[51:20] Connor: Yeah, that's the one he tried.

[51:22] Miguel: Yeah.

[51:22] Dani: Walmart has it.

[51:23] Miguel: Yeah.

[51:23] Dani: I'm going to go get it.

[51:24] Miguel: We looked it up, too.

[51:25] Connor: It's got, like a three pack. There's, like, three flavors.

[51:28] Dani: Nice.

[51:28] Miguel: Yeah. Not all of them have it, but remember we were looking at the product finder. Yeah, you can find them here. I went to the one in East Lake, the super one.

[51:37] Dani: Okay.

[51:37] Miguel: Yeah.

[51:37] Connor: We were junk at, like, 01:00 a.m.

[51:38] Dani: Non.

[51:39] Connor: We were like, Where can we go right now to try this?

[51:41] Dani: And it just wasn't any that's nice.

[51:43] Miguel: We were going to leave the bar immediately, like, oh, we're going to go get this soon and eat it on.

[51:47] Connor: The curb because it was all fluid. Yeah, that one was hard because I had to recommend more, see which one was good without having to try it. And I don't like doing that because, really, if you didn't like that one, you probably never would have tried another.

[51:59] Dani: Yeah, you would have been like, that's.

[52:01] Connor: Why I like trying to recommend ones that I like, because then if it fails, I'm like, oh, I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's good. You're wrong.

[52:07] Dani: I'm curious. Have you tried any vegan food?

[52:10] Alvan: Yeah, I have.

[52:11] Dani: Do you like it?

[52:12] Connor: It's good.

[52:13] Dani: Like, at a vegan restaurant, I've had.

[52:16] Alvan: A lot of vegan things. Not specifically at a vegan restaurant.

[52:19] Dani: Like a vegan version of a non vegan dish. Is she saying, like, a vegan burger.

[52:25] Alvan: Or like yeah, I have one time, one vegan burger. My whole life was at Jr.

[52:35] Miguel: The beyond. Right?

[52:36] Connor: Beyond Carl's Burger King as an impossible okay.

[52:40] Alvan: That's the only time I've had, like, a vegan burger.

[52:42] Dani: But that did you like it?

[52:43] Alvan: I'll never forget that burger. Not because I liked it, but for the rest of the day, it terrorized my stomach.

[52:50] Dani: Oh, really? Oh, no.

[52:54] Alvan: Yeah, I've had some vegan foods and similar to vegan things, and I don't always eat meats, so sometimes I do actually eat just greens. Yeah, greens all day.

[53:10] Dani: A lot of spinach.

[53:13] Connor: Spinach definitely a plant. Yeah.

[53:21] Dani: Okay, well, that's vegan.

[53:23] Connor: Which one did you get? Did you get like, the famous or the one with the lettuce and tweet? Or did you get the onion ring and barbecue sauce burger?

[53:31] Alvan: It was a couple of years ago, but it was the burger.

[53:35] Miguel: It was just a regular burger.

[53:37] Alvan: And it tasted exactly like because they.

[53:38] Connor: Had two at one point. They want the dungarerings and the barbecue sauce on top.

[53:46] Miguel: I have something to say. The one thing I also liked also was the Cauliflower buffalo wing.

[53:52] Dani: Oh, those are work, right?

[53:54] Miguel: No, but when we went to was the atmosphere in Little Italy, the one.

[53:58] Connor: For your it that one was Cafe Gratitude.

[54:02] Miguel: Oh, gratitude. Yeah.

[54:04] Dani: Did they close? I think they closed. No. Did I hear I don't know.

[54:09] Connor: We don't like them. Remember, they're the ones that's owned by the one that sells meat. Yeah, the ones that own Campbell gratitude. They have like, a ranch where they sell meat. And I was like, what? These people are I still support those.

[54:22] Dani: Though, because I think the good outweighs the bad.

[54:26] Connor: I don't I think if they ate meat but served it, that's one thing. But they raise animals for slaughter and sell the meat, that's crazy. They're just capitalizing our movement.

[54:36] Dani: But the amount of people that I've heard that their perspective on veganism has changed because of Cafe Gratitude. You know what I mean? That's what I'm talking about.

[54:48] Connor: I see it, but I don't respect.

[54:50] Dani: Yeah, I see it. I acknowledge it.

[54:53] Connor: I walk in there and there's no more gratitude. Like, get another food and I'm ******* leaving.

[54:58] Dani: But you're getting the food.

[55:00] Connor: I'm not ordering. I'm not going to order off their stupid menu. I am happy.

[55:04] Dani: Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. I'm not happy.

[55:08] Connor: We talked about last time. Last time when I ordered the French toast, I was so happy. And then they're like, we're out of French toast. I was like, what?

[55:15] Miguel: Bread?

[55:16] Connor: Right then I was like, all right, I'll take this late with soy milk. And they're like, we're out of all the milks except for milk milk. And I was like, what?

[55:23] Dani: I didn't even know they had that out of here.

[55:25] Connor: So I got a black cup of coffee. It's like a vegetarian restaurant.

[55:29] Dani: Oh, see, I didn't know that.

[55:31] Connor: Yeah.

[55:32] Dani: All right. Thank you, Miguel and all them, for joining us. I hope we didn't bore you too much.

[55:37] Miguel: No, this is fun.

[55:37] Dani: Thanks for having us. A good discussion.

[55:39] Connor: It's fun. Veganism religion, they're pretty similar. Like just belief systems.

[55:45] Dani: I hope we didn't come off as judgy.

[55:47] Connor: No, can't come off as judging teeth.

[55:50] Dani: This guy we're going to have sometimes.

[55:52] Miguel: Who's judging?

[55:55] Connor: Show them the tea. Oh, yeah, judging.

[55:57] Miguel: Find another website.

[56:00] Connor: And as always, who's judging? Not me.

[56:03] Dani: Not me.