[00:17] Greer: 
Hi. This is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Today's guest is Shamika Whiteside. Shamika is the cofounder and executive director of Zora's Cradle, a nonprofit organization in Louisville, Kentucky that provides essential services to expectant mothers through a holistic approach. Shamika earned her Master of Science in social work from the University of Louisville, and her research interests include maternal morbidity of black and Latinx, expectant mothers, and dual diagnoses. In this conversation, she shares her powerful personal story that led to the founding of Zora's Cradle. And she explains how milk banks and milk depots open up access to breast milk for babies in need. So welcome, Shamika. You have a powerful story of turning your own loss and pain into powerful advocacy on behalf of other women. Would you please share some of your story with us today and how you came to found Zora's Cradle?

[01:40] Shemika: 
Absolutely. So I am originally from Springfield, Illinois. I came to Louisville because the University of Louisville had a wonderful master's social work program and I wanted to enroll in that and become a social worker. And once I graduated from my Masters of social work in 2013, I was pregnant. I really, really wanted to stay in Louisville. I always joked that Springfield, Illinois is kind of a one-horse town, it's Abraham Lincoln country and it's exciting for some people, but that was not the life I want to live. I mean, there's coming from somewhere where there isn't a White Castle and things aren't really open past six p.m. was a big deal. So I really want to stay here. I just thought there are more opportunities. Unfortunately, at the time I had unfortunately, I had a salary position. I was offered the case manager. But the biggest barrier is I know they say they don't discriminate against women, but, you know, sometimes people do. So because I had to keep taking medical appointments and what have you, my employers thought it would be best if I kind of transition to become an hourly worker, which I was fine with because I'm like, oh, that's fine, no worries. However, it became problematic when it started to really cut into my bills, my payments, when there was so many pregnancy complications. So I went from someone who was a mother of five year old and was pregnant and very comfortable and all my family's back in Illinois to someone that's struggling financially. My family members really wanted me to come back home, but I didn't have the same opportunities I had back home that I had here. So I decided to stay. And I tried to find resources here in Louisville, Kentucky, but it seems like everyone kind of operated in silos. Like you'd have to really piece together agencies that really served the work, and if you found someone, they weren't sure who else did comparable work with pregnant women. I ended up going into preterm labor when I was six months pregnant. I ended up finding somewhere to stay briefly because I lost my apartment. My income is reduced, but I lost my apartment. So I ended up staying in an attorney program. And of course, they couldn't take my five year old, so I had to find some alternative stay temporarily. But I had even been there maybe two weeks. And while I was there with the preterm labor, ended up being taken to the emergency room. And the one that took me was a retired nurse. And while she was parking the car, I went into the hospital. And while I was in triage, it was very, I don'T know, they were just kind of abrupt with me. They didn't really check my name, really didn't get my information. It was just very, okay, well, let's just go see the baby's kicking. And they put the things for my belly and to see how things were going, and it was like, well, your baby's fine. There's no real kicking, but you're six months. Maybe the baby's just resting or what have you. I mean, I don't think I was in there five minutes. So I'm like, okay, everything's okay. And they're telling I can leave. So I started to walk back towards the parking lot, and the nurse that brought me there, she asked me, I was walking out, and I told her, I'm like, Are they saying I'm okay? And she goes, well, you don't look okay, and I didn't bring you all the way here for five minutes of triage. Let's go back in there. And she went in, and even though she's shorter than 5ft tall, she advocated for me. And she asked who the doctor was in charge. The doctor happened to my OBGYN. They were just working in the emergency room that day. And the doctor came and checked, and the women, they were like, oh, well, she's fine. We checked her belly. She's okay. But the doctor said, something is wrong. Something's wrong. She didn't come all the way up here, so let's check. And she checked to see if I was dilated, and my baby's legs were already out. Wow. Yeah. And it was, to this day, just the face of the women. I told you something was wrong. You didn't really even check. You just were like, oh, baby's not kicking. Probably resting this so. So it was a horrible experience to me because, one, they had to physically push her legs back in. They had to schedule me for an emergency C section. But it's difficult, and I can actually empathize with women who don't have family or who don't have family nearby. My whole family's in Springfield, Illinois. I just came here to go to school and work. There was no time for my family to get to Kentucky in 5 hours in time to really help everything that was going on. But they did a quick emergency t incision during the C section because they really couldn't get her out. She was so small and she wasn't moving. She was in crisis, but they got her out. She lived about two or three days, and she passed away because the complicates from the whole thing, if things had kind of happened faster than they probably could have saved her. But I went back after I was released from the hospital to the maternity program, and I was asking what the aftercare resources were. They really didn't have them because they primarily were focused on making sure the baby was delivered. They never lost a baby. So they didn't know what to do. And I was I had different feelings. I was upset because, you know, no one's really helping me, and my family's able to help, but they're not here. I was mortified because I'm like, here I am, this master level social worker. I don't even know what resources are available for me. I've asked around, other people don't know. But I was also just empowered at the same time. I didn't want people to go through the same thing that I went through. I didn't know how to do that. So someone, when I was discharged from the hospital, had reached out to me. She asked if I had initially planned to breastfeed and I said that I had. And she asked if my milk had come in, and I told her it had. And she asked if I was willing to be a bereavement donor and donate my breast milk to the milk bank in Indianapolis, Indiana. And I said sure. So I did that for a while until it became too much to do emotionally for me. But from 2014 until 2020, I continued to try to partner with women. I was a case manager, therapist during that time, case manager for a few years and transitioned being a therapist, but really trying to find resources locally for women that I could just partner with. I might just sit as a case manager. If a woman has a need, I at least know what to refer her. But it seemed like that was a task. It seemed like there could be something easier. So 2020, at the beginning of the year, I posted on Facebook, just as we always do: in a few years, I want to do this. But I posted online, like, Louisville doesn't really have and actually not just Louisville, I can't even say that for Louisville. Most of the country, a woman needs different pregnancy related resources. Sometimes they have to piece them together. Not a lot of places have like a onestop shop. So my goal was to kind of partner with other agencies and do something like that. I might just need to start something on my own. And it was groundswell grew back. I had someone that said, hey, we've all together, but I know someone that could help your agency if you do it. Get Section Eight vouchers for women. And I had someone from the milk depot reach out to me. And they expressed that we remember you as a bereavement donor. So if you want to have your own milk depot, we'll supply everything that you need to get that going. But it was really people throwing resources at me, places I haven't heard of. So it's kind of like if you build it, they will come type thing. I mean, here I am, going around the city looking for people. The moment I post something, everyone comes my way. To this day, if I had known this, I would have posted this post years ago. But it has been a gratifying experience and challenge at the same time. You kind of don't know what isn't out there until you're trying to really pull the resource together. Even with some of the service that we offer, especially the milk depot, we know areas that we still need to secure, especially when it comes to education of what a milk depot is. That's been a big barrier, but we're just enjoying the process and learning and hoping to help more mamas year after year.

[09:09] Greer: 
What a huge journey. My goodness. I want to learn more about that milk depot and that's where we'll spend a lot of the conversation. But for a moment, I just want to sit with how hard that must have been to be returning to that maternity home without a baby and to be the first one, and staff not really knowing how to serve you. And then that powerful experience of being invited to be a milk donor. What did you feel like that did for you or what made you excited about that opportunity?

[09:43] Shemika: 
It was actually right on time because, you know, to go back to a maternity program and I was only there for another month because it was very hard. You returned with no baby and people are playing with their baby and you're hearing babies crying and what have you. And I felt like I didn't really have a purpose in the maternity home. It's like I'm just sitting here, like, why am I still here? I know that I'm not healed, but it's like, why am I still here? And I regretted it later, but I actually asked my doctor if I could have permission after two weeks to go back to work part time, just so I can get out of that house and just kind of clear my head. That helped. But of course, once the time came, in terms of you can only be here for so many hours, so many days a week, my employer was very prompt of kicking me out the door because they don't want to be sued, as they should, and they also were concerned about my health and welfare, so there was that. But just knowing when I was asked to be a bereavement donor, it was one I felt I had a purpose. I love the questions I got from people when I was donating the milk when I was taking to be screened, from some of the women in the house, so I was learning, but I was educating people as well. So it kind of helped me get out of the slump I was in.

[10:57] Greer: 
Wow, thanks for sharing that. And what would you say the mission of Zora's Cradle is and what those holistic services that you offer are?

[11:07] Shemika: 
The biggest thing is our mission ultimately is to really I guess in a nutshell, it's to really connect women to all services needed. I know we use the term holistic. We just mean mind, body, soul. We're not doing any type of special medication or what have you, but I think when people meet with people, they say, oh, well, let's just give them these services and let's just have them go. But I just want to make sure in terms of mental health, they're doing okay. In terms of physical health, they're doing okay. Do they need social support? So I try to make sure I look at the whole person. I'm still clinically trained as a therapist, but we operate in the whole psychosocial assessment mode. I want to make sure I hear everything about someone's background. There may be pieces that we're not getting, so I try to make sure that I help with those things. Sometimes mothers will meet with them and they may come in, and we still do this. They'll come in and they may just need diapers and wipes, but they may be pregnant again. And it's like, do you have a Doula? So make sure we connect them to a Duola. Or someone may come in and might have a Child Protective Services case. So it's like, do you have case management to help you with those resources? You know, I mean, to make sure that everything goes well, or are you interested in our free parenting classes? So really, you know, sometimes people come in, and I try to assess that there are other things that we can help with, but I think that's the biggest thing. Someone doesn't come in with one problem, and it usually may seem simple in the service, but it's like in order for someone to not have to continue to encounter symptoms of depression or have barriers against receiving resource, I try to make sure I capture all those things. So that's our holistic approach. I know I said it to someone a few years ago when you thought that we were doing yoga and we do yoga. We do those things. I think people think of that. They think of that aspect, but we just incorporate whatever the mama needs, make sure we find different ways to help her, create a place to help her.

[12:55] Greer: 
Yeah. And you're really looking at that full timeline that includes not just the pregnancy itself, but the postpartum experience as well.

[13:03] Shemika: 
Yes.

[13:04] Greer: 
That's so powerful. I have to admit, I had never even heard of a milk bank until you started Zora's Cradle and I started reading articles about it locally and I was so intrigued by the idea. For those of us who are ignorant like me, can you tell us what a milk bank is and how it works?

[13:22] Shemika: 
Absolutely. So the thing is, there's a main milk bank. Actually, most people don't realize that there's one every single state. And a lot of hospitals have a milk depot, well, milk bank in them. So Zora's Cradle operates at the depot. So someone is either in need of breast milk, because I think sometimes people think, oh, you've had this baby. The milk doesn't always come out like it should, or you may not be able to provide enough milk for your baby. I know it was my son, even though he was a breastfeed kid, he's 14 years old now, but he drank a lot more than I could produce. So it would have been great to have an additional supplement as well. Sometimes someone may have extra breast milk. But the purpose of our milk depot is if a mother either needs supplemental breast milk because she's not producing enough, or if she needs more, we provide that. Or if there are women who actually want to donate breast milk to help a mother need, they can bring it to our depot. And ultimately, let's say someone's like, I want to donate breast milk, they bring it to the milk depot. And when they bring it to us, because we partner with the main milk bank, that's Indianapolis, we have dry ice and we have complete kits. So it's not like we're just taking someone's breast milk and handle it, hand it to the next comes in, we take it, we ship it overnight free of charge. Through FedEx or Ups. It gets to Indianapolis, they screen it, they process, and they make sure that it's safe and fit for the next baby that can receive it. And they ship it back to us now that it's been completely screened and everything. And within the depot as well, a lot of the people that we have coming in, there are people that and that's the thing too. Not just one was just giving birth. You have a kid that may be breastfed and their mother may have lost custody or the mother may be hospitalized, and the family member wants to continue on with that. We have different couples of different backgrounds. People who have adopted, grandparents, so you name it. You never really realize, hey, this kid needs additional breast milk until the crisis comes. But yeah, I think people just don't really realize it's. Like, what do you do with a baby that's breastfeeding? You don't have milk. So that's pretty much what we do. But we also provide additional supplemental supplies that deal with breastfeeding. We have like bobbies and we have breast pumps. We actually got those from a grant we wrote to, I think, an insurance company. But we have breast pumps. We have pretty much anything that deals with breastfeeding. We have those additional supplies too, but sometimes we get people that are like, I don't need breast milk, I don't want to donate breast milk. But do you have some of the ointment for my boobs? I might have that too. So not just the milk, we've got the supplemental items as well. But really just if a momma needs milk or family needs milk, I should say family needs milk, or someone to donate milk, they just go through us and we make sure it's clean and green and we make it happen.

[16:10] Greer: 
Oh, that's so great. And so in a lot of ways it's reminiscent of the process for blood donors where they're taking those safety and screening steps. So if there's a prospective lactating mom out there who would like to donate, she would want to get in touch with the depot ahead of time to get that kit that you were talking about.

[16:30] Shemika: 
Yes. And actually there been times where we always tell people, because on our website, because we go to the milk bank, even when people call, there's like a quick form. It's very quick, a quick form. They do like some people actually we ask that they call the Indianapolis office, they send them a link and it kind of gets to us. So we at least know kind of an appointment, we know that someone's coming. We've had people actually show up to our office and when they show up they're like, hey, I have breast milk. I was like, hold on, I got to do something real quick. And in less than five minutes they've connected to the Indianapolis bank. We've had times where someone was like, I couldn't wait, I have all this breast milk in whatever containers. And we have looked up to the bags as well, just in case someone needed to transition. But someone had it in a container that wasn't appropriate. It's fine. Like I said, we're ultimately we're transitioning to the appropriate stuff and we'll send it to be screened. So that happens a lot with people bringing it into items that we're not typical milk bags, but we'll make something happen.

[17:24] Greer: 
Sure. And how are people finding you either to donate or to access that milk?

[17:30] Shemika: 
A few different ways. So a lot of people saw us when we were on the news. So we have that. A lot of our community partners ranging from Metro United Way to the health departments and what have you, they know we have ones. They let people know as well. We try to do health fairs. We let people know that we're doing this. And I think sometimes people just do a Google search and they find us. One little thing that we have. We had some practicum interns from the University of Louisville. We'll also be having some in the spring from the University of Kentucky. But a lot of times our interns really help with that. They'll post it on our social media pages. We had one young woman who I guess she saw a couple, they've recently adopted and they didn't have breast milk for the child, so she'll tag us. But I have found, and not just with our milk people, with all of our services, sometimes we spend all this money promoting and ads and what have you, and I say nine out of ten people that show up and it's like, how did you hear about us? That someone told me. It's like, well, word of mouth is always a great form of advertisement, so we'll take that too.

[18:32] Greer: 
Yeah, absolutely. What have people shared about the impact on their lives, either receiving the breast milk or donating it?

[18:41] Shemika: 
I think there's a shock that, like I said, that people don't realize it's the thing. Most of the people that I get, let's say someone comes up there, usually they're bringing someone with them, a mom, a girlfriend or what have you. Sometimes people come up there together and I always get, I wish I had known about this two years ago when I was breastfeeding, or what have you. But I think there's a shock of it. That's the biggest piece. A lot of people are relieved and know that this is an option. Typically the Milk Depot a lot of people are actually scared of because the Milk Depot, they charge by the ounce. However, someone's having a hard time, they have ways of either reducing or waving the cost for people too, but just making sure that people are also aware that it's accessible as well. It's not something you have to be rich to receive. But yeah, a lot of people are just really still in shock that it's actually an option for them. And we're hoping that people see that this is an option and hoping other agencies open their own Milk Depot. Most states, like I said, have several Milk Depot, and Kentucky just not places that are outside of hospitals. We got started last year, there were two of us, us in an agency called Baby Eyes. But yeah, it's just sad that one of the states that has one of the highest infant mortality rates is lacking resources. That's one of the biggest ones. They're always excited to make sure whenever Kentucky reached out to Milk Depot and said that we wanted to start with mind you, I think we got our fridges and all our stuff less than a week. They overnight a lot of stuff to us. But wow, yeah, kentucky sometimes, and I say this with love, just the land that time forgot. We're kind of behind on a few things, but hoping things like Milk Depots catch on a little bit more and are throughout the action throughout the entire state. I don't want it to be where a handful of places have. I just want to make sure everyone is accessible to most people. But it's a conversation that people aren't really having, but it's a huge need.

[20:40] Greer: 
Yes. The momentum around this is great. What's your experience of the supply and demand dynamics been so far? Are you getting enough supply for the demand that you're seeing?

[20:49] Shemika: 
We are! The scariest time for us, that's when the news came, the scariest time for us occurred when there was the formula shortage. We got so many calls. We're not that big, we're little people, so we got so many calls and one, I think the most beautiful thing I've seen, we got so many calls that people are like, like, I know there's no formula, but I'd like to transition to breast milk. Or do you at least have the supplemental supply that we saw you on the news? So the increase in calls, we weren't ready for it. But mind you, the milk bank was ready, so they shipped everything that we needed. So it all kind of happened on top. We have, knock on wood, we have not run out, but whenever they need something, they know we need to click and they see that we've given out. They've been on top of it, which I truly love. But also the main people that come to pick up the milk are dads. Wow. Yeah. So cool. You don't see a lot of it's always a surprise. See, if women can actually pick up milk, it's dads and grandpa and uncles together. And I think it's minor because the baby is probably at home with mom or whatever. But yeah, men are usually, the ones that come pick up the milk. It's always a trick for me when I see that too. It's pretty cool.

[22:03] Greer: 
Yeah, that's so neat. And I imagine that even if your supply is keeping up with your demand, you're still always looking for new donors. Because unlike donating blood, where you can donate blood throughout your whole life cycle, there's just a limited window of time where we are producing that excess milk.

[22:21] Shemika: 
Yes, we're definitely looking. We're always looking for new donors because like I said, I think we're so comfortable, like, oh, this is going to keep going, what have you. We're always looking for new donors. And I think it's great for people that, like I said, I have all this breast milk and what do I do with it? So also helping them to make sure that they're supporting other women as well. Definitely encouraging new donors all the time.

[22:42] Greer: 
Oh, yeah. And you mentioned the formula crisis and that interest that people had in switching to breast milk when formula was no longer accessible. I'm wondering what are some of the other reasons that people would seek out human milk from a milk bank or milk depot rather than just defaulting to formula?

[23:04] Shemika: 
So a few different things. So one of the things that was very interesting, and mine was a cultural one, so there are certain cultures that and especially it still shocks me, there are certain cultures that really wanted to breastfeed their children, but in their culture, breastfeeding is for the poor. They didn't seek out they don't breastfeed because it's like, I don't want people to think I'm poor. And it's like, why do you care about that? I get it, there's different stigmas and what have you. So we have had a lot of people that won't physically breastfeed because of cultural reasons and the stigma behind it, but they'll come and purchase the breast milk. That's one that shocked me, how to learn that one? That's one that actually shocked me, that people are coming for that reason. We've had people switch over because they weren't able to produce enough breast milk. We've had people come because, mind you, they're like, my baby has this formula that I've been giving them and even though we've used the sensitive brands and what have you, it's still not effective. So we're going to come to the Milk Depot. We've had people that were tired of using formula because it stays closed. So we've had those people as well too. But yeah, we've had people for different reasons, my most surprising one, but everyone's different. We had someone request they preferred their child to be breastfed, but and I don't know who has started it, there are people that are like, if I breastfeed, my boobs will SAG and come out weird and do this and do that. So we've had people ask for milk from the Milk Depot because they want their child to have breast milk, but the vanity purpose of it, and that's fine too. So everyone has a different story of why they need it, we've got it, we give it to them and we're just glad the babies are healthy.

[24:51] Greer: 
Yeah, so many different perspectives. That's really interesting. And then I was reading during that formula crisis too, about a rise of informal donations directly between mothers. What are some of the reasons to be a little bit cautious about that practice?

[25:07] Shemika: 
My fear is always here's the thing too. So a lot of times I get, I'll state from personal experience, a lot of times when women are pregnant or they're breastfeeding or what have you, I just know after I gave birth, after I gave birth to my son, with him, I had a C section. And I know that even though I was breastfeeding him, my physician wanted me to be cautious because I was taking painkillers. I've been sliced, but I'm still in pain. But I think sometimes people are like, oh, I've got breast milk for this baby. I know the intentions are pure, but just making sure that you're not exposed to this infant who has a very fragile immune system, it's something that you may have ingested and it hasn't been screened. So I think people's hearts are in the right place. They're trying to do peer to peer breast donations and what have you, but sometimes your breast milk has been exposed to something that can hurt that baby. I just felt like I said, we're a safer option to make sure there's nothing that can harm the child. And it's all been screened and what have you. So I don't want babies to get hurt.

[26:11] Greer: 
It's good that you can give people that confidence about what they're receiving, right. And just diving in, you touched on different cultural practices around breastfeeding or different mentalities around it, and also the accessibility of supplies and all kinds of different factors that go into someone's choice to breastfeed or not. I was reading up a little bit on the CDC statistics about the troubling racial disparity in the prevalence of breastfeeding among different populations in the US. And you'll see some ethnic groups heavily breastfeed and others do not, and different racial groups, you know, falling in different areas of the spectrum on that. So what I was reading up about was that the US. average is around 84% of mothers breastfeeding babies. But unfortunately for the community of black mothers, that's as low as like 74%. So I'm wondering if you can highlight maybe aspects of structural racism that also contribute to these disparities and what we as a society and as individuals can do to work on dismantling that part of the problem, to make breastfeeding more of a genuine choice for all mothers.

[27:26] Shemika: 
Well, here's the thing, too, and I want to make sure I debunk this myth. Black women breastfeed in higher numbers. When I see stats, I'm always wondering, who do they speak to when they gather the data as well? That's a big thing as well. And then any particular barriers with the data. So I can actually speak for myself personally. When I gave birth to my son, I'm having babies every time I have a different degree. I was pregnant with my son when I was getting my bachelor's degree. So when I was getting my bachelor's degree and I was pregnant with my son, I applied for WIC. I was a fulltime student, low income, but I had my milk and cheese on my pregnancy, so that was wonderful. But after I gave birth to him, I wanted to breastfeed as well. But then I wanted formula. But the problem was, and this is the part that disheartened me, so the problem was, if I was breastfeeding, they could only give me one can of the formula. And if I get that, that was used to supplement. But then it got to the point where I told you he was greedy, he was greedy. So there was that piece of it. So then when I went back and they're like, Are you still breastfeeding? And it's like, what happens if I'm not breastfeeding? So they increase the amount of cans that I was able to get depending on where I was with my journey, they increased the amount of cans I was able to get because of that. So the thing is, I feel like there are certain parts of the data that if there's a story like mine, it's highly likely, but there are times where people are they're probably breastfeeding, or they may not be breastfeeding as often. Or in my case, I'm reporting that I've reduced my breastfeeding because I have a kid who, you know, and he's still eating at this pace where, by the way, God help him, it just never slowed down. But the thing is, I had a doctor checked me. He's just greedy. He'd get up in the morning and he'd breastfeed. And I made sure there was breast milk when he went to daycare and what have you, but one can of formula. He went through it pretty quickly. There was a small formula as well, whereas I probably needed I needed about three supplemental cans. And I get people say cans are $25 a pop, but if you're buying four kids, it's $100. As a student, you don't have that kind of money. And financially, if I reported that I wasn't doing this or doing that, I was able to get additional milk to supplement my childhood. They were tracking information, but it's like I had to make sure my kid ate, and he's not doing well by himself. I try to convey that as well. Like, I need more formula. He's eating, he's breastfeeding, but he's not getting enough. And the doctors already checked, I need this many more cans, and they weren't really going for it. So it's like, well, let me fudge a little bit so this kid can get all the milk that he needs. But like I said, he's still eating me out of house and home. He's less than a hundred pounds, and he's five foot eight, and he's a freshman and still eating like people. He eats six snacks and a full meal. I don't know. He's just a hungry kid. He's fine, but he's very active as well. So I think that he's very, very high metabolism, but I just use it as an example. I thought there are parts of data that may not be truly captured, and I think just moving forward, sometimes the people that are collecting the data don't look like the audience. So I think that's a big thing as well. I think that if some of the people who are actually gathering data and information we're actually targeted and recruited from the different communities, even just peer research people, I think that would really shine. Some wonder what the numbers actually are. I just thought there's some pieces missing.

[31:38] Greer: 
yeah, thanks for raising those questions. I think there are a lot of reasons to question how that data was gathered. And I also really appreciate that example you gave highlighted ways in which the sort of excessive regulations around things like WIC, benefits and SNAP benefits. They sort of skew both the data, but then also make it tough just to get what you need when you do need those things. And it's a little bit, maybe over policed, and it's disadvantaging people who are already highly vulnerable. Like, if you're looking for WIC or looking for SNAP, it's because you're already financially vulnerable.

[32:21] Shemika: 
Right.

[32:21] Greer: 
So we really need to address that as well.

[32:25] Shemika: 
Absolutely.

[32:26] Greer: 
Thank you. That's so helpful. You've shared so much, and I really hear the energy in your voice, and I hear the joy, and I'm so moved by it because you went through some really traumatic things. I mean, what you talked about at the beginning of our conversation, just every aspect of that sounded really heavy in terms of the complications you were first experiencing in the pregnancy and then not finding the resources you needed, and then the very heartbreaking loss of your child quickly. And all of this has kind of turned into huge energy for you around this powerful, innovative force in Louisville that we're so lucky to have. And I'm wondering, how do you feel about your journey now? And looking back on it.

[33:26] Shemika: 
Proud. I feel that, and it sounds kind of weird. The biggest measure of my success is actually my son. And let me explain you what I mean. So it's like doing this work, you know, when other people are supportive of it. I mean, I feel good that I'm helping women and helping families, and I'm actually that makes me proud too. Have been contacted and consulted with from people from other countries and other states as well. That makes me proud. And there are things that I'm no expert, but sometimes and the thing is, I know we all say that, like, I'm no expert, but sometimes the questions that people are asking are pretty basic. I know recently one of my board members had me do a consultation with a woman who is in South Africa, and she was mentioning some of the barriers that they had with connecting women to resource. They were providing all these resources, and women didn't seem to really be engaging in some of the programs. And I said, well, what programs did they ask for? And at no point, girl, they even ask the people what they want to see what they want. There's something about putting all this stuff together, and it doesn't really meet your audience's needs. And to me, it was in my head, it was like, who wouldn't do that? But sometimes people don't see it that way. I do enjoy doing things like that, like just standing back and actually seeing something and providing kind of what I see from my experience and what have you. I love when I do that with other people. Can you see something that we may be missing? So I love that piece of it. But just the biggest measure of my success right now is my son. He's at the age of Greer, where he's, like, too cool for school, doesn't want to hang with mom. He's that kid. Even all his food he's eating he's eating his room, playing video games and chatting about comic books with his friends online. But the school he goes to locally is a magnet school. And the thing is, I'd be like, hey, they're having Thanksgiving or this or that, you want mom to come? And of course, my job, he's a freshman in high school. Like, no, I don't want you to come. It's not cool. But when he was going from 8th grade into 9th grade, they had to do a capstone project, and actually they wanted me to come to the school to see it. And people are like, So you're her. And there were students from the Black Student Union, and people were coming up, and I'm like, I'm who? And someone says you're Christian's, Mom. Yes, I am. Christian's mom. But I'm like and they're like, oh, he talks about your nonprofit all the time, and he's so proud and what have you, and he's rolling his eyes, Greer, and the vice principle comes up and says the same thing. But it just makes me feel really good that my son is proud of my legacy. So that's a big deal for me.

[36:09] Greer: 
Oh, I love that so much. What are your hopes for the future?

[36:14] Shemika: 
I really want to get to the point a few different things. So I love what I'm doing with Zora's Cradle, but I feel like what we can be doing is more not just for Kentucky, but other states. So I definitely want to take some of the things that we've done here, whether it's Milk Depots and what have you, and spread our message other places, hoping to either expand what we're doing into other states, especially in Indiana, they have a high infant mortality rate as well. So finding places that we can partner with and expand there is really expansion is a big deal for us future wise. I want to make sure that I increase community visibility, not just for Zora's Cradle, but just when it comes to limited accessibility resources for Mamas. That's something I really want to do, but I am currently in a doctoral program at University of Louisville. But I really want to come out of the program with my doctorate and really want to focus on some macro level social work that deals with perinatal disparities. So I really want to even, I guess in ten years, even if I have to hand the reins over at Zora's Cradle to another individual, that is, it's passionate about what I do to someone else. I just want to make sure that I take what I've learned and really help others and really educate others. I would love it in ten years, because one thing you really don't see when it comes to academia, our programs are actually educating people on maternal health, I think. And in my head, to me, it's logical. It's like if you know that you have all these states with these maternal health issues and not just that. But if you're also our country just doesn't do well when it comes to maternal health issues. I just feel like if we could have some of the students really incorporate even perinatal nursing programs, or just incorporating that as an elective with social work programs and what have you, but it's really building it in. So people are the people who are actually out here working have more knowledge, and I think that would help. I mean, it's kind of mortifying to be there are plenty of people I know who are that are social workers. It's like, what do you do? I work with Mamas. I work with Mamas, too. No, that's my trade. That's what I'm trained. And it's like, I didn't know that was a thing. And I get that a lot. I didn't know that was a thing. So the same way that gender studies became a thing, that's very big on most campuses, and all these other studies I select, perinatal studies should be something that's incorporated as well. And over time, we can really rewrite the narrative of maternal mortality in the state of Kentucky because it's concerning.

[39:00] Greer: 
Well, I'm so excited that you're putting all of your energy into this because there's so much work to be done. And like I said, I hear the energy in your voice, and I know more good is going to come with this.

[39:12] Shemika: 
I am a boots-on-the ground lady.

[39:14] Greer: 
Yeah, I hear it. I love it. So as we're winding down, if other people listening to this conversation today feel energized around these issues, either because they want to donate milk or because they're seeking these types of services, or because they're excited about your mission, and where you're going. Where would they go to learn more and offer that kind of support?

[39:41] Shemika: 
They can check us out on our website. So it's www.zorascradle.org. So I would tell people, Z, as in zebra, and then o-r-a-s, because her name was Zora. She was named for Zora Neil Hurston, the Harlem Renaissance Writer so I would tell people when they hear that, and it's cradle, like a baby cradle. ZorasCradle.org. I want to make sure that I stress that. Zora's cradle. I get calls all the time, Greer, people looking for Zoras candles. We do not sell candles.

[40:13] Greer: 
Oh, no.

[40:14] Shemika: 
All the time they're calling for the candles, but they can check. I'm on LinkedIn personally and mind you, Zora's Cradle can be found on pretty much all social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, we're on LinkedIn, we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter. If for some reason someone I was talking with this. If for some reason people are like, Crap, I can't think of the name of the lady. We are members of several different coalitions locally. We're members of the Coalition for the Homeless. We're connected to Metro United Way. We're part of the March of Dimes. If it's dealing with babies, people know who we are. So if someone goes and they ask the name of that place that has the Milk Depot, they'll send you our way. So someone actually, even the hospital, especially Baptist, they know who we are, send them our way. So that helps as well. But if someone's actually just looking for a physical location we are located in the heart of Shiveley, which is in Louisville, Kentucky, but we are next to the Shively Public Library and across from I think we're across from Krispy Kreme. I don't know. Yeah, there's crispy creams. Crispy cream there. But like I said, if they just look up, milk Depots in Kentucky will pop up. So we'll pop up in some interesting ways, but usually six degrees of separation. Someone knows who we are, and they'll point you in the right direction.

[41:35] Greer: 
I'm thinking maybe you need to sell candles as a revenue generator.

[41:42] Shemika: 
Maybe! One day we can say, we finally sell candles.

[41:44] Greer: 
I don't know, put your logo on the candles.

[41:47] Shemika: 
Maybe have them say, "we finally sell candles?" I don't know. Disappointed folks out there, though. But it's all right.

[41:55] Greer: 
There's one more question that I love to ask everyone that I talk to for this podcast, and that is I'm wondering what you might want to share with the listeners about what you've learned about listening to our bodies as women.

[42:10] Shemika: 
I would say, I think we always know when something is wrong. There's just a sense of impending doom. Like, I knew something was wrong at the time. When I had Zora, I was still in my twenties, so it was very much I knew something was wrong, but the experts are telling me that something, you know, there's nothing wrong. And that was frustrating. But now the thing is, I encourage not just, to this day, someone tells me, oh, you're fine. I need you to check again. And actually, it's funny, Greer, 100% time I'm correct, like something else is up. No, there's something wrong. I can feel it, just go with it. I love the beauty of if you can't do it personally because everyone just doesn't have a strong voice. And that's okay, knowing the resources that are out there for you. I didn't know a Duala was a thing when I had my pregnancy. So just knowing that you have someone and mind you, most dulas, they're different agencies. Even Norton Hospital here locally, they have a Duola program, but they're duolas that will advocate for you if you're not a strong voice and you're not someone that's like, hey, something's wrong. You know something's wrong with your body. Whoever your support team is, Duola, grandma, whoever using their voice. I think sometimes people are afraid, but you know when something's wrong, you just know. And the thing is, even if you're not sure, just making sure that if you can't advocate for yourself, you have someone to advocate, advocate for you. So that's definitely helpful, I think, as well, when it comes, like, something being wrong, to this day, since women know like something, something's up. I know that something's wrong with my body. I know my kids being too quiet in his room and he's up to something. You just let me just know. So just going, just going with that. Like I said, if you can't do it yourself, finding someone that can advocate for you, that has been the biggest thing, biggest take away from that. Just really standing firm. And like I said, if something isn't wrong, can we run everything to prove that it isn't? I don't think my heart should be beating out of my chest if there's something wrong. If this is normal, please explain what this condition is. Your medicaid insurance or what have you mind? Those things are supposed to make sure that you're as healthy as you can be. So just utilize those resources and cover those things to make sure you're healthy. But yeah, I definitely not only listen to my body but encourage others to do so. Even with those that I see for outpatient therapy, I have individuals where they know something's wrong. But also like I said, something is wrong. Seeking medical help and not taking things into your own hands is another big one as well. I know sometimes we're like something's wrong. I just want relief to let me do this. Even though you know something's wrong, making sure your safest can be. I have clients that are like this medication didn't seem like it was working so I just stopped taking it. Like did you tell your doctor that it would you know, so there's that piece of it as well. I know that it doesn't feel right, but tell someone they can help you make the best decision. Especially if you feel like you are being heard by your providers. Absolutely. I hope you know what you're talking about.

[45:21] Greer: 
Yeah, absolutely. Well Shemika, it has been such a privilege to listen to your story today and to hear all the good work you're doing. I am so energized by this conversation. So I'm really grateful.

[45:35] Shemika: 
Thank you so much for having me. I'm beyond honored.

[45:43] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com that's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for femammal podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And of course I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.