ASTON INCORPORATED
The Entrepreneurs Pursuit of Personal Expansion, Tactical Success, Limitless Mindset, Manifesting the Impossible and making Legacy Impact on Humanity.
ASTON INCORPORATED
Episode 14- Harnessing Debt as a Wealth-Building Ally: Real Estate Strategies and Financial Acumen with Wayne and Dallin Aston
Strap in as Wayne Aston and Dallin Aston unravel the mysteries of leveraging debt to your advantage! We'll share war stories, including my own brush with a mountain of debt, and show you how to turn what many see as a financial foe into an ally. Whether you're a newbie or a financial veteran, this episode promises to shift your perspective on the power of smart borrowing.
We dedicate a good chunk of our conversation to the art of structuring debt for real estate ventures, breaking down the complexities of the capital stack. Explore with us how a balanced approach between various funding sources can amplify investor returns, using a hypothetical $10 million project as our guide. If real estate investment beckons you, our insights on debt-to-equity ratios and navigating interest rates are gold mines of information you won't want to miss.
Lastly, we stress the significance of strategic financial planning through the lens of my entrepreneurial odyssey. It's not about how much you have, but how you use what you've got. We wrap up by encouraging listeners to take these insights and apply them. If you've ever questioned the role of debt in building wealth, this episode is an essential listen designed to empower your financial decisions.
Welcome back to the show, guys. I'm Wayne Aston. This is Aston Incorporated. Joining me is my co-host, dallin Aston. Hopefully y'all having a good afternoon today. We're fired up to be in studio again. Today we're gonna be talking about debt, that four letter word that a lot of people have some fear about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, specifically we wanted to talk about good debt versus bad debt, we wanna talk about structuring your debt and we wanna talk about debt versus equity. So, dallin, do you wanna kick off with a few of your thoughts of, maybe talk to us about how your attitude of debt and being in debt almost a million dollars at the age of 24.
Speaker 2:How does?
Speaker 1:that feel.
Speaker 2:Well, when you say it like that, I feel like most people, even me included, go holy shit, yeah right.
Speaker 2:But I'll be completely honest with you, I don't see it that way. Yeah, and that has been a long time in the making. Just starting at the very beginning, my first car, my first car, was a 1998 Honda Accord. I got it for 900 bucks because I didn't wanna go get a loan to get a car, and so I was thinking, in my opinion or my thought process back then was debt is bad, debt is bad, debt is bad and that's programmed.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is, society generally thinks in those terms, so that's a common thing.
Speaker 2:Well, and in no way, shape or form am I suggesting that you go just get a huge car loan. That's not what I'm saying here. Yeah, what I'm saying is I didn't realize there was good and bad debt. That's kind of what I'm trying to get at, right. So then I got another car for a really low loan, just to build my credit, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff happened right, but that car loan was only like 3000 bucks. I paid the rest of it down and I just wanted to build my credit, blah blah.
Speaker 2:Some would argue that car payment, car loans in general, are bad, but I think, at the end of the day, what I'm trying to point out here is when I went to actually do the deal is where I started to understand the reality of good debt versus bad debt. And I sat there and I will never forget. I was talking to all these different lenders, I was talking to some private money people and I had one private lender send me a letter of intent and I will never forget this. And I opened the email and I pull up the PDF and it was a signed document saying, yeah, we intend to loan to Down Ascent, and it was a million dollars. It was like 1.1 million. I was like holy cow, Like that's. I had never seen that much money on paper before in a real scenario, right, like you can throw that number out, you can see that number all the time, but until you're looking at it, about to sign your name to something, that's when I started going oh my gosh, that is insane, right. And another thing, too is keep in mind, I've never even seen a percent of that in my bank account at that point, oh yeah, right, I was like, well, I mean, I'm doing that Totally. I'm talking about here is doing something that I've never done. But like, this is crazy, right.
Speaker 2:And you know, as we got further in the process, I looked into different mortgages, different equity, all these different options and ultimately set it along. You know what I ended up doing. But, man, I'll tell you it was a hard thing for me to justify. Oh, man, like should I? We talked about this in the other, in the other, I think it was the previous episode, episode 13. Talk about this, like, oh, should I do this? Should I? Like this could go wrong? This?
Speaker 1:way to see if the rates get way, yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And we've seen now they've gotten way worse, Right.
Speaker 1:So, so, back then, and even, and even, at mortgages, if they were 9% today they're still not 22%, which they were in 1982 with. Reagan so so there's still a long ways. They could go Right, and if you wait right now because you don't, want to 9%.
Speaker 2:you might look at it Three years you might be 20% mortgage.
Speaker 1:You're not going to do anything at that point, Anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great point, I guess, to answer your question on a really long-winded sense my journey to this. Now I'm sitting here at yeah significant debt If you, if you ask someone that doesn't have this perspective, they just if you debt is debt and not good and bad debt. They'll say you are out of your mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are 24 years old and you're in debt $760,000. I mean, technically you could, you can get into technicality of exactly the debt that I'm in, but I mean, and kind of how it's all structured, how it's all set up, but that's the. That's what people don't see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, let's, let's, let's read, let's define, let's redefine good debt, bad debt. For the listeners, right now, what I'd like to have everyone consider is there's consumer debt and there's production debt. Right, two totally different things.
Speaker 2:Very different.
Speaker 1:Okay Now, if you haven't already, go out and get the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki.
Speaker 2:Most read Robert.
Speaker 1:Kiyosaki's. One of those guys had inspired me way back in 2004, 2005, one of the most prolific real estate investors out there he's.
Speaker 1:He's spent his, oh God, the last 20 or 30 years creating real estate education content for people to consume, and I and you know he was one of those readers, one or, excuse me, one of those authors that I really dove into in the early days Before I was, as I was making a transition out of stone and tile business into financial markets as an investor, and I was really inspired because Robert Kiyosaki talks about how he started by buying one house, which turned into buying two or three houses, which turned into buying some duplexes and some eight plexes, which ended up into him owning apartment buildings and hotels and commercial real estate, and, like in the book, he talks about how he scaled this up. Now Rich Dad, poor Dad's a cool story because his, his biological father, is the poor dad in the book.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And his biological father was the guy saying go get a degree in college and you can be an attorney or you can be a doctor or you can be a. You know, one of the one of the basic when we talked about baby boomers. There's those basic things that the people that were making money aside from entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1:Were those those guys, those doctors and lawyers? They got a degree. You spend seven, eight years in college. You do that, right, that's what. That's what Robert Kiyosaki's biological dad was trying to really push him to do, and he had the good fortune of being mentored by his he refers to as his Rich Dad, which is just a mentor of his yeah who, who taught him a whole nother way. He's the one who taught him about consumer debt versus production debt and saving money versus investing money, and really, really mentored Robert in the ways of being a real estate investor. So so, going deeper into consumer debt versus production debt consumer debt, guys, that's your auto loan, yeah, that is your mortgage on your house that you live in. Those are your credit cards.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So consumer, that that is the buckle card to go buy new clothes at the buckle. So consumer, debt is anytime you borrow money and you don't get a return. You get a product or you get. You get like the money goes, but it doesn't re-numerate you right. So you're, if you, if you buy a house and you have a mortgage on it, you're paying every month to be in that house and you're consuming.
Speaker 1:You're, the house consumes what you pay into it right yeah Now some might argue that you know your own house, that you live in your primary domicile, might appreciate inequity and that's true. We're not going to argue with that because that that does happen In Utah we're, fortunate. The average you know appreciation rates almost 5% a year, so we have really good appreciation in Utah. But typically speaking, those are all in the category of consumer debt. Now, production debt is if I can go, as a business, borrow a line of credit, if I go borrow a $10 million line of credit to buy investment properties with that's production debt. As a real estate developer, if I can go borrow. Well, in the case of Sage Creek was really cool, that's a great example.
Speaker 1:I borrowed $28 million of construction debt and all of my friends were like just like the same response you said about the million You're out of your mind.
Speaker 2:How does it feel? How do?
Speaker 1:you sleep at night? You personally guaranteed a $28 million loan. You're in debt. I'm like, yeah, well, the how do you sleep? The stress, the anxiety of having so much debt? You're buried in debt. I'm like, yeah, well well, I'm building an asset that's worth over $100 million. Yeah, building an asset that produces a debt service coverage ratio of four, four times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see, but going on top of that, the reason, going back to the previous episode, everyone says that because their perspective determines it Perspective. Their perspective is all that is bad debt.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right, but that's a prime example.
Speaker 1:That's right, yep, yep, so. So, taking that a step further, there is a way. There is a way that Robert Kiyosaki lays out in Rich Dad, Poor Dad, that I really like, and that is a recommendation that, as you're young, so for the young entrepreneurs like yourself, dallin, and you're on the right path if you can go borrow production debt first before you take on a bunch of consumer debt right.
Speaker 1:And focus on finding the production debt and finding deals that can cash flow and then use the cash flow that that golden goose produces. Use the eggs to go buy the car and go buy the house and buy the clothes and have the lifestyle.
Speaker 1:The assets pay for your liabilities you do not go use a credit card to go on vacation and pay for clothes and like try and you know, live your lifestyle on, because you have to repay all of that Now. I learned that the hard way, guys. I'll just make it a disclaimer. Before my first apocalypse event, I didn't know any of this. This is before I read Rich Dad, poor Dad. So I'm building a stone and tile business and I had I don't know 80 grand in credit card debt. That was the only way that at that time I knew how to go access capital to buy inventory.
Speaker 1:Put my employees in between getting paid by builders and it really created some problems for me, and I know there's folks out there that'll that'll, you know have their credit card strategy programs about using them in a positive way and I'm not taking anything from that that you definitely have to have consumer debt to build a credit profile. That's a big piece of it because when you, when you dissect how the credit bureaus view your profile, they want to see a combination of revolving lines of credit, consumer debt yada yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 1:right, there's that formula that they all use, and each of the bureaus have their own scoring standards, and so it does make sense for you to be strategic about the type of debt you have.
Speaker 2:That's how I've gotten my credit score to be as high it is is now because I've been able to be strategic about consumer debt. It's not you know, it's not like I'm going and getting 20 grand, 30 grand, just because I want to in like a car or a, or clothes, or vacation. You know what I mean. It's it's a very strategic use of consumer debt, Um, whereas in my other side of it, the debt that's you know, the production debt, it's it's a very different story.
Speaker 1:What's your debt service coverage ratio? Do you know off top your head on your current debt and what it produces? Yeah, it's about a, about a four, three or four.
Speaker 1:Now for the listeners out there. I'm asking this because I was just having a conversation with a client just this week and he's actually working on a big farm project, and we were talking about DCSR and there was a banker we were talking to and he kept throwing out the acronyms quickly LTV, ltc, dcsr. Dcsr is debt service coverage ratio. Guys, it just is a. It's a metric that a lender for mainly commercial debt is going to use and apply on a commercial acquisition and it tells me, if I have net operating income after the expenses of that asset are paid and I had that's just what's left over the net operating income how many times will that net operating income cover the mortgage payment of whatever loan I have on an asset, typically in commercial underwriting. If you're a 1.2 or a 1.3 debt service coverage ratio, you're gonna get to be approved. In fact, the banker that we were talking to for this farm acquisition needed it to be a 1.3 debt service coverage ratio to approve the loan for 7.
Speaker 1:Something million. So this is why I asked you, because I want the listeners to have a perspective. Perspective determines behavior. If your condos are able to pay the mortgage four times every month, how risky is that debt facility?
Speaker 2:Oh, very non-risky. I mean, it's like I said that poorly, but it's like there's very little risk.
Speaker 1:It's like you'd be stupid to not do that Right? Right Because anyone who can produce a four on the debt service is making great money.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's so funny because you bring up the example there of the 1.3, I feel like when I was talking to a lot of people they'd be like if it was a 1.8, that's great. Yeah, you know. It's like, well, so there's another bit of perspective, right, it's like if you can get a 1.8, a two, then the debt, that debt even makes sense. Yeah, right, totally. So you know anyway.
Speaker 1:And I still think you probably, you probably still have a good deal if it's only a 1.5 debt service coverage ratio.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying you're crushing it. If it's a four, a higher right.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about structuring the debt, because there are a million ways to structure debt. There's a term that I like to use as well in real estate development, called prudent using prudent leverage. Okay, Prudent leverage is something that's always in the back of my mind when I'm structuring the capital stack. Typically in real estate development, there's layers of a capital stack. If I have a project and a project costs $10 million to do, then it's never always just a bank loan.
Speaker 2:It's never always a cash deal.
Speaker 1:It's a combination of debt, equity bonds, special assessments, grant. I mean it could be. There could be five or six species of resources of capital that go into a capital stack and so getting resourceful around structuring a capital stack.
Speaker 1:That's a special skill for a real estate developer or a real estate investor. So let's talk about we've talked about syndications versus funds and we're gonna be touching on this a little bit more here, because structuring debt for the real estate investors out there is thinking about buying an Airbnb like you're doing. This is relative. So if you could go out and raise $10 million to do the $10 million project and you could do that all with private equity, does it make sense for you to use all private equity to buy the deal? It could, but I'd have you consider that you've made a commitment to the investors that give you the private equity to provide a certain rate of return.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And if I plug all that cash equity into the entire $10 million of that project capital stack, I gotta hit that hurdle rate for my investors first and foremost, whether I've syndicated it or whether it's coming in from a fund. And so now what I want you guys to be considering is the fact that if I can go get a debt facility from the bank at a lower interest rate, like a five to 7% interest rate none of my equity investors are interested in putting cash into a deal for five or 7%.
Speaker 2:Everything I'm offering them is double digit interest rates, that's the only way they're interested.
Speaker 1:My target to investors in my funds is I mean, it's multiple, double digits okay.
Speaker 1:So, I'm not making any guarantees about what the return will be, because that can only be determined as we perform and we operate and we execute deployment of capital and development of a project. But as a general rule of thumb I like to keep the equity right around 25 to 30% of my capital stack, and that's a strategic choice. What that means is I typically have bonding in the very front end of a project that handles infrastructure, and bonding can typically handle 10, 15% of a capital stack. In some instances, like what I have in Fillmore, it's covering over 30% of the capital stack. So special bonding is really powerful in real estate development. Bonding doesn't apply to buying a house to fix and flip. Buying a house to fix and flip or buying an Airbnb property is much more basic.
Speaker 1:And so you do start with the debt facility there. So typically you're gonna go get prudent leverage at the. The prudent. Prudent is that it's a low interest rate. It's strategically low. So the cost of money you wanna get as much of that in my mind as you can at the low interest rate. Now disclaimer what I'm talking about, guys, is for the investor coming into a deal with no money of their own.
Speaker 2:Yes, now if you got a million dollars with your own cash right and you're doing a $10 million project, that'll be very helpful.
Speaker 1:A little different, but it could. That can help dictate terms and rates, and all of that with the bank. All I'm saying here is that we want to get that bank debt as high as we can Typically that's 65, 70% and then we're going to backfill the rest with equity. Even if I can go and I have access to more equity, I don't want to put 50% of the equity into the deal.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The reason being is because, strategically speaking, it's much harder to hit the hurdle rate at a if it's in the teens or higher than the teens. On what I've, what my target to my investors is, the more, the more equity in that capital stack, the harder it is for me to hit my hurdle rates. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now if we switch over to the fund model, the fund model is very same. I mean, I've got, you know, invictus Sovereigns, you know managing the three funds and we typically will not inject more than 20 to 30% of the equity out of those funds into a project.
Speaker 2:Which is very interesting. I just want to point that out because I personally, and so in my studies of funds and all this stuff that has stood out to me very prominently, because it's like you know, if you have a $10 million fund does not mean you should just use the fund to just go buy five properties.
Speaker 1:Right, you could be buying, you know, 25 properties if you use prudent leverage Right Right, low interest leverage.
Speaker 2:And the return is so much higher, because then you're going off of the return for 25 properties as opposed to five properties that are just paid for the fund.
Speaker 1:So let's just for kicks and giggles. Dallin, let's let me bust out the calculator. Let me just run a comparative model on a $10 million project. If I'm offering a 15% return to my investors, so 10 million goes in and. I'm targeting 15% return. That means that's $1.5 million that I'm going to pay my investors for coming into the deal all cash, right, okay.
Speaker 1:So my internal rate of return, my cash on cash return, they're both the same. It's 15%, right, but if I have a $10 million project and I can put in, let's see, if I have a $10 million project and I can put 60% of that in debt, 6 million of debt, 4 million of equity goes in Instead of the 10 million, instead of 10 million, $4 million in the same amount, because the project's going to produce the same, it'll produce the same, yeah, so, let's just say that's the point.
Speaker 1:So right now I'm not even pulling a cash flow scenario out of the air here. I'm just helping the listener understand that the output's the same whether it's all cash equity going in or whether it's debt and equity.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But what happens now is 4 million. By limiting the equity injection, it means that the cash on cash rate of return could be 29%, 35%, 50% cash on cash rate of return, because I'm using all that bank low interest rate debt to produce the same output that goes back to me and the investors. That's the strategy. So again, whether it's syndication or whether we're a fund, same mentality applies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. You know, again, as I've studied it, that has been probably the one of the biggest things that has blown my mind right. Because it's just like how brilliant is that when you can structure it and just make it so much sweeter for your investors, They'll want to give you more money.
Speaker 1:Absolutely right. Well and their exposure's lower their exposure's lower their equity investor.
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 1:Risk and exposure is on the forefront of the mind of everyone. Yeah yeah, and so you want to mitigate the risk as best possible, and the banks? Are in the business of mitigating their own risks, but they all have predetermined thresholds of it's either LTC or LTV loan to cost of the project or it's loan to value Some lenders.
Speaker 1:they'll let you get your MAI appraisal, your commercial appraisal, done and, based on the value, they'll lend you a percentage of value. I like those a lot, but when we're oh my heck, I was just looking at you, I just went cross-eyed, lost my train of thought.
Speaker 2:That's okay, I can cut this part out.
Speaker 1:As we're. Well, you can leave it, but we're just pause. So another nuance to the whole structuring your deal. You know, as you're structuring your deal with debt and equity, another big consideration is the more equity you've got to put in, the more leverage your investors have against you to if you're syndicating a deal to have more control.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so it's an advantage as a sponsor or developer to use more bonding, more debt. Keep that equity equation low so that the interest that I'm giving them if it's a syndication is lower, because I need to maintain control of a project at all times. In a fund, that's a totally different deal, because we're not talking about controlling interest into a project or a company. So, structuring the debt pause again. You're gonna have to chop this one up. All right, guys. So we're jumping around here a little bit on the structuring debt and I wanna touch on the guarantees. So all consumer debt is gonna have a personal guarantee. That means you're gonna sign on it and if you default on it, you're gonna have consequences. A lot of commercial debt will also require a personal guarantee.
Speaker 1:At some point in your career you get into a situation where you can get the bank to do what they call non-recourse debt. Non-recourse is fantastic. That means the developer sponsor doesn't have to guarantee it. It means your investors don't have to guarantee it. The bank is comfortable enough in their underwriting and the asset that they're not requiring personal guarantees. Now, cash flow determines a lot about what we're doing, how we're structuring the debt. So just to underscore what we've already said here how much debt can I take on? Well, when the bank looks at a deal, when they underwrite the deal, if it's consumer debt, they're gonna look at your credit profile. This is the concept I was thinking of. I had a brain fart here two minutes ago. Consumer debt is really based on your personal credit file.
Speaker 1:It's your credit score and your profile, your assets and da da, da da In commercial debt. When you're talking about cash flowing assets, the bank many times will look at that debt service coverage ratio. They'll get an appraisal that has an income approach on your asset and you don't have to have the strongest credit profile.
Speaker 1:And they might ask for a guarantee. They might not. They might like the asset enough that they just don't require that. They might get lucky and have non-recourse debt. So that was kind of the final point that I was trying to drive home here on the structuring debt versus equity. And I know you were having a thought here on interest rates and how they're fluctuating right now.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like look, it's based off of what you just talked about. It's like that performance of the asset can dictate a lot. Right, and so, even with, as we talk about people getting scared because of interest rates, people getting scared because of this, that and the other wanting to wait for a perfect time, now is the perfect time. I would argue that now is the perfect time. Let's take, for example, you have an asset that is, I don't know, $60,000 a year producing asset. That means you can get an interest rate right now If it's a let's say it's a $500,000 property and it produces 60K a year, then that means you're looking at and say there's a 7% or a 6.75% interest rate.
Speaker 2:That's about what I mean. I've seen some going for the butt right there, right yeah, in my conversation with lenders and such right now. That's a pretty good one actually.
Speaker 1:That's good for today, yeah.
Speaker 2:So if you get a 7%, 6.75% interest rate and you have a property that is $500,000 and it produces about $60,000 a year, you're looking at a two debt service.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, going back to the conversation about lenders being excited about 1.3, again, perspective determines behavior. Right Like you're sitting here and you're looking at this oh man, I'm gonna pay $30,000, I'm gonna pay $2,488 a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that's not the point. Almost right, let's take a look at okay, that's a two debt service. Now what are the profits there? What is this gonna do? How is this gonna make sense? I would just argue, when we're talking about structuring the debt, if you can structure the debt as kind of we've been talking about today and leverage different ways to kind of structure this capital stack, you'll get into these deals and a two is gonna be really good.
Speaker 1:Two's good and you should be focused on reserves. I mean you should build these reserves. You'll have reserves.
Speaker 2:You're gonna be careful.
Speaker 1:And you know that in a short term, like within, whatever it takes, I'm hopeful that within 24 months we see rates start to go back or recede back to a normal position. Hopefully interest rate will cool excuse me, inflation will cool and we'll see interest rates going back to normal. But if I'm the guy sitting here waiting around, then I just lost 24 months of revenue and the guy who jumped in with the higher mortgage today is making limited revenue but can refi in 24 months Refi has when they go down.
Speaker 1:Take advantage of the rate and term and get into a better interest rate.
Speaker 2:I would also even argue well, what if they go up? Then the person who's waiting for the perfect time is going. Oh geez, now I can't even get in.
Speaker 2:Now it's not even a possibility to get in, and the other guy who got in, they're continuing that revenue so that in four years, five years, when it does settle out, or however long it's gonna take, then they're out of the position, whereas the other guy couldn't until five years later. And then by then, who's to say that he'll have the appetite to do it? Who's to say that? You know what I mean? It's just like there's so many unknowns.
Speaker 1:We just don't know the future, so let's take a look at the present. The more you wait, the more fear can creep in and the more doubt comes in and the more mystery happens and then circumstances change and the likelihood you're gonna pull the trigger and do something.
Speaker 2:it's not a today scenario, now it's a maybe someday or tomorrow, it's a tomorrow situation tomorrow never.
Speaker 1:Comes.
Speaker 2:It's a wish, yeah, well, and that's no excuse to be reckless. I wanna make sure that that's very clear, right.
Speaker 1:But yeah, this is a very acutely focused conversation around the capital stack. This is assuming that the underwrite, that our due diligence checks all of those other boxes and we love the asset, that we love the opportunity, the project all makes sense. Yeah, we're just not. Thank you for clarifying that. That's a good one for the listeners to keep in mind that this is the conversation we're having after we've underwritten the whole thing and it works. After it is the deal.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, right, I mean I love I know. We had a conversation the other day that really stood out to me as like if you had a billion dollars, it would not give you the right to spend $100 recklessly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:That I mean you have to be so calculated and so strategic.
Speaker 1:In many ways, what you're saying is actually, you know, going back to the last episode, I see big funds and big fund managers and big developers who are really flush with cash, who run a little bit looser because they can just plow through it because they're so flush with cash, whereas a really resourceful, lean developer, a lean fund manager, can't afford to lose anything is very strategic, very resourceful, and that comes from bootstrapping.
Speaker 1:Business is from nothing into something and scaling it, and there's a lot more skill and talent that goes into bootstrapping from nothing into something and then scaling it up.
Speaker 2:You've got to be very tactical with how you deploy every dollar. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So with that, guys, I think we go ahead and wrap it up. Thank you for tuning in. Hopefully you're getting some value out of this, and please share this with friends If you're getting some value out of it. Guys, we want to grow the show and we really appreciate you talking about it and telling people about it and sending them our way, and with that, we'll catch you on the next one.