Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and working against oppression

Transformational Leadership with Dr. Julian Sonn (Part II)

June 28, 2024 • VISIONS, Inc. • Season 1 • Episode 8

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What does it mean to embrace a multicultural, democratic society in a nation scarred by Apartheid? Join us for the second part of our interview with Dr. Julian Sonn, who has spent the last thirty years working towards transformational change in South Africa. From the exuberance of the first democratic elections in 1994 to the ongoing quest for inclusivity, Dr. Sonn offers an in-depth look at the power and potential for leadership in bringing about transformation for South Africans.

We recorded this just after a historic election took place here that offers powerful potential for change– if people can learn to work together. Dr. Sonn talks about the legacies of colonialism, fascism, and systemic oppression that has left an indelible mark on the country.  As he reflects on both the progress and setbacks over the last three decades, he underscores the potential of the VISIONS model to overcome barriers and move toward multicultural democracy, which has deep implications for understanding both the stakes and the possibilities of the present moment in South Africa and beyond.

Will we see you in Boston in September 2024 for VISIONS 40th Anniversary Celebration? Learn more here!

Interested in learning more about our approach and model? VISIONS offers a pay-what-you-can (free if you want!) introduction to our Guidelines for Effective Cross Cultural Dialogue on the last Wednesday of every month. All are welcome. Learn more about Guidelines and our other programs here!


Some terms:
Afrikaans - a language spoken in South Africa with influences from the descendants of European (Dutch, German, and French) colonists, indigenous Khoisan peoples, and enslaved African and Asian people in the Dutch colony at the Cape of Good Hope.
Boers/Afrikaaners -Afrikaans-speaking descendants of Dutch, German, or Huguenot settlers in contemporary South Africa.
Broederbond - see Wikipedia.

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Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.

Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.

Whether it’s a book club, around the family dinner table, a school board meeting, or within your company, VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through sometimes complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.

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Music credit: Tim Hall @tv_hall

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Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a podcast about transformative change, equity and working against oppression. I'm Leena Akhtar, director of Programs with Visions Inc. Welcome, welcome back. This is part two of my conversation with Visions elder and senior consultant, dr Julian Sonn. In this episode, we talk about the work that he's been doing on the ground in South Africa over the last three decades and about the forces that have shaped South Africa in the present moment.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

We recorded this episode just after a historic election took place here. That offers powerful potential for change if people can learn to work together. We also talk about the potential that he sees for the future, and so much of what he says has deep implications for understanding both the stakes and the possibilities in the present moment. I'm actually married to a South African and have been learning a great deal about the legacy of apartheid. One thing that surprised me was the extent to which the techniques for segregation, displacement, possession and exploitation that the apartheid government used were learned via exchange explicit exchange with Nazi Germany, but also, before that, going back to enslavement and segregation in the US US. Ultimately, this work our work, vision's work is about bringing about a better world where we can show up fully in our differences and work together. And Julian and I end this conversation by talking about how he believes the Vision's model offers a powerful way forward for developing transformational leadership in South Africa.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Coming back in 1990 was the beginning of an exciting time in South Africa. There was a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of happiness that it seemed like we would be able to create a normal society. And then, of course, in 1994, we voted for the first time, and that was really a wonderful occasion, with people standing in long lines waiting for hours to vote, and it created a whole spirit of optimism in which we then worked. So I felt at that time there was a keenness on the part of everybody to get direction on particularly the process of transformation that we were then talking more of moving away from apartheid and moving away from colonialism.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So when you say transformation, that's what you're talking about.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

We define it very clearly in the workshops because it's one of those concepts that we use the concept but we don't always check what we mean by it. I think most people have a sense of it's, including black people, and that in many ways is a very limited way of thinking about transformation, because it's also a threatening way for white people and they then feel they're not part of this vision that we have for the country. So when we work we always clarify it. It means moving away from a monocultural to a multicultural society where differences and similarities are accepted and the differences are actually valued, Our diversity as a people, our heterogeneity, is valued. So, and that monocultural meant one culture, the Western culture was regarded as the norm and the standard and we were all socialized to embrace the notion that that culture is better than that, white is right and West is best. Second level is we're moving away from autocratic society to a democratic society, and then we speak about that.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

The previous governments were all autocratic, particularly after 1948, when we really had a fascist government. That was entirely autocratic. And in an autocratic society there was always an assumption that the leader knows what's right and we must just follow the leader, and we were not encouraged to feel engaged in the country and trust our own thinking. With the result we've been socialized not to think and also we've been punished if we take leadership roles. So most of our leaders were called agitators and troublemakers and therefore leadership was never valued and therefore not developed, and we were not encouraged to think for ourselves. The assumption was your leaders knows what's best for you, what the Nazis called the Führer Principle, that the leader knows the truth and will define the truth very much what Trump is doing now. So we clarify what the autocratic society means and we get other examples from the participants, and then we speak about democracy and how we really need to focus on educating all South Africans in order for the democracy to be substantive. Also, that we've never really had a democracy because less than 10% of the people, about 6% of the population, voted, so we've never really had a democracy, although we pretend it like we're a democratic country. As a result, we often don't know what it means to be a democracy, and we need to then. So transformation is also talking about that.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Then the third level is that we've always been a very exclusive society. We couldn't go to the hotels, we couldn't swim in the beaches. We couldn't eat in the restaurants. We lived in separate neighborhoods, so big parts of the city was not accessible to us. So we've always been a very exclusive society and now we are creating a more inclusive society.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So that's an important level of transformation as well, and we need to be mindful in everything we do to ask ourselves am I being democratic in the decision-making processes? Who's present? Are those folks empowered? Are those folks participating? And then also to value the diversity in ourselves and in others and in our society, Because we were told that those parts of us that's indigenous was primitive and barbaric. That's indigenous was primitive and barbaric. With the result we have become ashamed to acknowledge that we have Sáhán people who were enslaved, Khoi Xhosa ancestry, because all those ethnic groups were vilified and presented in such negative ways by the political leaders over the years. With the result we must always be mindful that we're democratic in what we do and also inclusive and that we value the differences.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So there's a few things that I want to ask you out of what you said. I know that you're doing work on the impending threat of fascism. I know that that's something that you're actively working and speaking and writing about. Now I learned when I came here the degree to which I mean, obviously, apartheid was no accident, and one of the things that I found I don't know why I was surprised, but the intentionality with which people who eventually instituted it had studied, as you've mentioned to me before, in Nazi Germany, really studying the technologies of how to control populations and displace them and all of that. So that's one thing. The second is that a friend of mine who's a poet told me about a play that she wrote a number of years ago now, a bit of which was around a quote, I think it might have been from the last National Party Prime Minister's wife about colored being a nothing category.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

What was left over?

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Because Evie de Klerk's wife, Marike de Klerk, subsequently murdered under very suspicious circumstances.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Oh, wow.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Okay, but yeah, she said that their son was dating a woman from the colored community in Stellenbosch and apparently had quite a serious relationship with her, and she then disapproved what's so ironic. She's very dark-skinned, you know, and I think those dark-skinned white folks in South Africa were often more expressive of their racism and I think they must have had a difficult time, you know, interesting, but in any case, she made that statement. Yeah, and you know, within the colored community too, in workshops, when we speak about identity and about culture, people will sometimes or people from the colored community will sometimes say we don't have a culture Again, because we were not really educated to look at ourselves as diverse people. Neither were we educated to understand culture, because if we were educated to understand culture, we would have been critical of the culture, both the cultures we come from and the culture that was being created in South Africa. So there's a whole. Currently, too, it's not a topic that we were really educated about and that we really know what it means, but so often in the colored community that there is that sense and then it's really great to speak about the richness of the culture and it's part of the empowering process of really helping all South Africans really.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Now, white folks do to look at their cultures and look at all the other elements of their culture, because they also have a sense that their whole culture was racism and therefore there's a shame about being proud of being a European South African, and so it's also helpful for those folks to start looking at their culture and speaking about what are all the things that you've really valued and enjoyed about the way you grew up, that you continue to value and make a distinction from the indoctrination you were subjected to by the Afrikaner Broederbund and the National Party.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Now the propaganda was also perpetuated by the Afrikaans churches and therefore it was virtually impossible, I think, for someone who grew up in those communities not to be deeply affected, and, of course, in their homes too. So, in all the different levels of society, that message was that they after us and be kind to us, because we are these, what it would say ondergeschikte, yeah inferior people who needs guidance and who needs support. That was when the university that I attended, which was now specifically for the colored communities, but there was one for the Indian and so on that initially was the statements of the rector and of the professors, that they are here to uplift us and they are here to provide us with this education. And this was in 1960, when Madiba was already in court and there were already a number of very prominent people in society.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

And yet that was the rhetoric church as well as whatever you want to say about where the people who instituted apartheid like how intentional it was. Not necessarily a whole history, but there was so much that I learned that was a surprise. Learning about the Bruderbund was a surprise. Learning about how they very intentionally did this studying in fascist Nazi Germany and then were able to take those technologies and implement them very successfully quote unquote here after the fall of Nazi Germany and then were able to take those technologies and implement them very successfully quote unquote here after the fall of Nazi Germany.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Let me just take a step back.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So in the work I do in South Africa, I speak initially. I use Vichon's model of guidelines, assumptions, early learning, once an expectation contract, and I find that very helpful. I often add to that creating a positive climate by showing gratitude and appreciating and forgiveness. And then I spoke about the context of colonialism and fascism, or the ideology of white male supremacy or far-right thinking, which people sometimes find more easier to take. Then the fascism after 48, that racism and sexism was really embedded in those forms of oppression and that again, we were not educated about what colonialism was. That colonialism was forced entry, destroying the indigenous cultures and substituting it with your culture, then utilizing all the resources for your benefit, often exporting it and lastly, giving the people a sense of we are not of value and our culture and our religious beliefs are not of value. Therefore, we need to not only speak the language of the colonial people but also embrace their religion and their culture.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

When you say that, it makes me think about our internalized oppression model, a lack of an understanding of the significance of political difference.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Exactly yeah.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

And that is a survival behavior, because I think if you're deeply entrenched in it, keeping at least one eye closed to it prevents you from going mad.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Right, the whole area of internalized depression has been a very powerful theory to help with the empowerment of all of us. And so, yeah, when we generate those examples in the black groups and in the women groups, they usually come up with a whole lot of examples. Then the white folks would come and just not even have one flip of example of white racism, and to some extent it was so much that notion of the fish doesn't know what's in the water. Racism and sexism was so pervasive that I think, as a man, I discovered my own sexism when I was 30 years old at NYU.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

I'm sure you have some good stories about that.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Oh, the women clobbered me when I opened my mouth. When I opened my mouth and it was initially so difficult, and then the penny dropped for me and I realized, wow, these women are responding like I responded to the white folks in South Africa Right, Would speak about your people and then immediately I would clobber them. But what do you mean? Your people, Right? Yeah, so that was the realization.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

I do have a lot of stories about my own exposure to my own sexism, and so I have sympathy with the white folks who really find it difficult to unless they feel very safe to speak about and to reflect on what the messages were that they were told and to see that as messages that they took in, and often you know that their parents taught them. As a result, there's sort of a sacred quality to it. So, yeah, so I think, speaking about colonialism then, and then also speaking about fascism and how, as you said earlier, all those leaders that were prominent after 1948 studied in Germany. Verwoerd also studied in Holland.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Hendrik Verwoerd was the Prime Minister of South Africa and was most akin to Adolf Hitler in the level of influence. He had Studied at the University of Berlin, where Guy Eugene Fischer came up with that notion that African people contaminate European people when they sleep with them, that we are a pollutant and that the offspring are like defective people. And he did his research in Reoboth in South West Africa with the Reoboth busters, the people my mother comes from that particular Nama group of people, and it was bogus research. So they call him a racial scientist. There was nothing scientific about these methods or the concept that he used. So yeah, Verwoerd studied at the University of Berlin and studied psychology. So all of them studied there and came back and took over this organization called the Afrikaner Broederbond and immediately also started influencing the students and creating the Afrikaanse Studenterbond, Immediately started influencing the mine workers and created the Mine Workers Union, and so they then created the myths and the policies that were fascistic and that they then called apartheid.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

It was essentially a secret society.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

It was initially much more public when the Germans were winning the war, up to 1945. A organization called the Osservaar Brandenburg had 300,000 members in 1940, and they were less than they were a little more than a million people. With the result the Osservaar Brandenburg was a very popular and powerful organization and they were out and out national socialistic and they thought when Hitler wins they will become a satellite of Germany. So a guy called Hans van Rensburg positioned himself to be the future leader of South Africa and at that time we were fighting on the side of the Allies or the United Party, jan Smuts and Herzog's government. With the result they had to Now only after 1945, when Hitler committed suicide and the Germans were beginning to lose that.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

They then went underground and were operating in secret and they actually ran the country because they created both the myths and the policies and they created 2,000 propaganda organizations that they called cultural organizations and the churches were part of their structures, for example, the ring in Stellenbosch and Stellenbosch is a very special town in South Africa on the whole, but particularly in the Boer South Africans history and culture. That ring would get the myths and the draft policies from the Bruderbund. The ministers will then look for justification in the Bible and then send all of that to all the churches around the country. So the preachers will then preach how beneficial the Mixed Marriages Act would be, or the Immorality Act, or or the Job Reservation Act or the Group Areas Act, how beneficial it would be and how it can be justified biblically.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So these are all apartheid era segregationist, anti-miscegenation policies, right and also the land, the group areas and the forced removal act was.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Their aim was to create a white republic and to literally get rid of us. So the banter stones were created to get rid of all indigenous people and they were in the beginning stages of also to create colored stones. Like Atlantis is still functioning, Mitchell's Plain. But then the wine farmers and the industrialists, like Anton Rupert, objected to that, to their workers being removed from the farms and from the factories, and it's only because of that that they then stopped the notion of creating Khalid Stans. But they went ahead with their band to stand policy and the aim was to create a white republic Literally remove all of us, which is part of fascist thinking.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Not only do you remove, but you also introduce genocide. Not only do you remove, but you also introduce genocide and the impoverishment in those areas. Initially that they called Bantustans, a lot of people were dying of hunger. A lot of diseases, like washi core was a direct result of hunger. So there was an element of genocide introduced as well. And if you look at the townships today, with a high level of violence, there is a way that many of the colored communities in those areas are not growing. Or if you look at the level of poverty in parts of like Aelitsa or any town or city in Cape Town, you realize that those folks are not really growing you know, they have a lot of children, but those children won't get the education and the life skills really to live quality lives.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So a process was introduced there, literally not to have us grow and thrive, but to remove us.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So these places that you're describing, these are areas where people of different categories were forcibly displaced to you had the Group Areas Act, where 75,000 people from the colored families were removed from their neighborhoods, like we were removed from our neighborhood in Claremont. Our churches were taken and more than 4 million what we call Africans, indigenous people, wanguni speaking, were removed from their land and pushed into the Bantu Stands, which was barren land at that time. Then the government provided them with money and created a culture of entitlement, so they created the artificial middle dwells and now those people are streaming to the Western Cape and if you see in any of the towns, you see all the Africans coming from the eastern Cape One are living here and living on the sand dunes. You know that. You see in Khayelitsha.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So there's this long, nearly 50-year legacy of these kinds of policies of having created all white areas, having displaced people, dispossessed them of their land, put them into certain areas or restricted their options, and when apartheid ended, that's the legacy that we're dealing with. So you described the 90s as a period of great optimism and hope. How do you feel that the last 30 years have gone?

Dr. Julian Sonn:

optimism and hope. How do you feel that the last 30 years have gone? A lot of gains were made, like a lot of homes were built, a lot of us in the indigenous communities were able to get good education and, because of the corruption, we haven't really fulfilled our mission to create a more inclusive, humane society and provide the same quality of education for all children. So there were gains, and we are free to travel and to speak our minds, although on the latter, at Stellenbosch University, whenever I spoke about fascism immediately the next day, there were consequences. Fortunately, because of the changes, there were enough influential people too that I I could then just get going to help him address the unfairness on the campus.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

And you know, for those two years I really had a wonderful opportunity to see what's going on on the campus. And I think, because of who I am and because I'm and I think because of who I am and because I'm you know, I'm a psychologist I've really been ethical about the information I was privy to. But so, yeah, a lot has changed. We have really failed the people. The ANC had failed the people in that they haven't used the resources of the country to develop us in the manner that they could have. So this elections we just had might give us an opportunity to work together to do what we didn't do after 1949. Let me just also say this Nelson Mandela was a great 1994., 1994, yeah, 1994,.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Right, mandela and most of the people in his cabinet were doing a great job. Mandela in particular did a great reconciliatory job. He was really seen as someone who was looking at everybody as citizens of South Africa and wanting to include them. So we had that period, the first decade, that things were improving practically on all levels. It's after him that we started sliding, and particularly after Becky. So in any case, from that time things didn't improve in the manner that it could have. And now we have an opportunity. If we create genuinely a government of national unity, we have an opportunity. If we create genuinely a government of national unity, we have an opportunity to address those issues.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah well, so this is where I think about your emphasis on transformational leadership and the work that I know that you're you've been doing and that you're keen on still doing. So I guess my curiosity is what potential do you see, and particularly where the Visions model is concerned, in terms of the intervention that could happen now?

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Well, visions is a powerful model that enables honest conversation and in the context of those honest conversations we get to see and listen to each other, often for the first time, and therefore it's really an opportunity then for personal change to happen. And I've had such a lot of experiences with that with some of the folks who fought in Angola on the side of the government, the white folks would sit in a workshop with some of the Africans who fought on the side of Thwapo, and they would talk to each other about what their experiences were at that time in Angola, and they would also speak about what were their beliefs, and particularly the white folks were so thoroughly indoctrinated that they genuinely believed all of us are communists and funded by Russia, and so Vision's model really enabled us not to talk honestly and to really get to know each other. It also helped us clarify our own oppression and our own internalized oppression, and then provide you know you mentioned alternative behaviors, then provide alternative behaviors and look for examples of where some of those behaviors were already used and what the positive results have been. So I think that aspect of the workshop is also very empowering, both the getting to understand the concepts and having a sense that you can unlearn the concepts and then getting alternative ways of being is empowering and then after that to speak about.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So what is our vision for South Africa? Because that's another thing we haven't really done. Our leaders really haven't articulated a vision of inclusive, humane society and also didn't after Madiba didn't model it. We fell into this oppositional politics of vilifying each other and given that there are so few of us who have been well educated, we can't really afford to have opposition parties. We can't really afford to have opposition parties. I think that's why I'm optimistic about the possibilities of having more of a government of national unity. And another point on that is in 1970, 10 times more was spent on the education of the white child.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Before that even more. I think in 1916 it was 17 times more. When I came back in 1990, I looked at the figures, it was five times more. So there has been an improvement. Yeah, with the result the white folks in South Africa are well educated. They're also doing those 50 years at all. The resources of the country spent on their development Right processes to take the position that that is our responsibility as black people is making the transformation virtually impossible because they still control the economy and they do have an attitude of it's the government's responsibility to transform. The government is sitting with the debt of the apartheid government.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

And the interests are huge. They also have a responsibility for the whole of the population, for all 60 million people. Previous government created debt and used all the resources of the country to benefit less than 10% of the population. So we have very well resourced people in South Africa and the DA is an example of that. Western Cape is working, services are being provided and so I hope, with the government of national unity, that there would be much more of a cooperative involvement in all these projects.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

And again, I think our workshops provide people with a tool to begin to have those conversations and not to feel threatened by each other or not to feel threatened by someone like myself who speak about transformation, because of the way I then have an opportunity to speak about transformation as an inclusive process. You know such a lot of the tools, of visions, the four levels is hugely helpful because, on the whole, people don't think about change in that particular way. It's hugely helpful that we start with self and realize that we need to start with ourselves and initiate the process. I also find that ego state model of how we became contaminated that Felipe described so beautifully, that is the invaluable model to take away sense of blame and shame and just realized. You know, when my father said women are lousy drivers, I didn't think he was being prejudiced. I just thought that was a fact and if that's not challenged, I could go through my life believing that. So I find that model has been very helpful, yeah.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So tell me a little bit about living here in Betty's Bay.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Yeah, so tell me a little bit about living here in Betty's Bay. Betty's Bay has a fascinating history. It's a beautiful community and it was the home of Hendrik Verwoerd.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Who is the?

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Who is the Prime Minister of South Africa, who was assassinated in 1961, who was murdered in parliament. But in many ways he was a brilliant man and it was during his time that the worst legislation was passed, so in many ways he can be equated to Adolf Hitler.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

So you're living in his town now.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

I live in his town. My cousin's house looks down on his house, Wow, and there was boom gates in this community so you couldn't come in here unless you could say who you're going to visit. So when I moved in here the people who live next door and the people who live next door to that come from that era. When I drove up here, my neighbor was standing on his stoop sort of, I think, curious, and I greeted. He didn't bat an eye, he just looked at me, you know, and I started singing and acting like I didn't greet him and he maintained that stance, never spoke or greeted. And when he left he came over, knocked on my door and he asked aren't there any of your people who'd be interested to buy my house? The man on the other side also, initially he didn't look to greet and….

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

This is when you bought in the 90s right.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

That's when I bought like I think I started moving in 96, 97, that I spent more time here and subsequently a lot of different people have moved in and a lot of you know younger, more progressive people. So things have changed. And again, this is not a good example of South Africa because it is a more exclusive neighborhood. Yeah, but I think it does both present the possibilities and the opportunities that we now share and it still has pockets of that old South Africa in it. There are a lot of you know progressive elements in the town as well. Zahn has actually been helpful for me in being more friendly with the neighbors.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

I just Does that surprise me?

Dr. Julian Sonn:

After those experiences I've had, initially I've just Kept to yourself, yeah, kept to myself and yeah, so she's been talking to everybody that. Yeah, so things are changing here.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

You said now I'm asking this because we're planning to do some programming here in South Africa 30 years on from when Visions was on the ground in the 90s, and you mentioned some of the people that you trained in those initial classes. Those initial four-day courses have gone on to do some quite prominent work and are still in positions of influence now. I'm just curious what you recall about that, about the people who you worked with, what some of them are up to now.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Well, cecil Jacobs, our friend who's a step away from being a general in the police, was a brigadier.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Practically immediately after the training he got promoted to be responsible for equity in his particular area and then he became responsible for equity in that whole region. He was then transferred to the Cape where he was responsible for the forensics program. So he had to investigate all that because he was seen as someone of integrity and he still had that reputation. And you know him, I do. The woman who went to the University of South Africa was a co-facilitator of mine. Sometimes she became also head of their diversity department, created that department, became head of that department and is now responsible for. And then she was responsible for implementing the program on looking at people with disabilities, which is a hugely neglected area. You can imagine if all of us indigenous people were treated so poorly. There was very little attention to people with disabilities. The three people I can think of now in KwaZulu-Natal also got senior positions in the police and also in the area of equity and diversity. And then also the people in Limpopo. One of them became a deputy commissioner of his area and I used him as a co-facilitator whenever I had to do work in Limpopo. Same with the police in Port Elizabeth. The woman who was there, karen Skierpers, also became responsible for the diversity in all of that police department in the Eastern Cape, karen Skierpers, that I continue to also use as a co-facilitator. So I really like this idea that Val has been pushing for a while, that we get these folks together and together decide what's the next step for us.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Because you mentioned my focus on transformational leadership, because there was never a focus on developing leadership in South Africa. There's a huge need for everybody who are in leadership positions really to understand what that means. One, the influence you have over the followers and your ability to really change people's lives. And of course, there are such a lot of good examples of that, like the different rectors we've had in South Africa, at Western Cape, at Pentec that Zahn attended. A lot of those rectors brought about great changes on those campuses. One guy that I think very highly of is a man called Derek Swartz at the Nelson Mandela University in PE. That was a Bruderbund University. Madiba personally asked him to take over that university and they changed the name to the Nelson Mandela University and it's a respected university. The same for Western Cape. I mean we called it the Bush College because it was so much created by the fascists and the people in positions of power. All spoke about how highly they thought of Hendrik Verwoerd, and that university is also becoming a top-level university that in some fields are world-class. So we've got a lot of examples of transformation leadership, but we don't always see it that way and we don't always think of leadership in that way.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

And you know, I take the position that all of us who are in leadership positions will also have opportunities to be transformational leaders. And it's important to know what that means. And I give examples of that. One is as soon as you get engaged in those conversations, leave your ego at home, focus on the other, focus on the issue. Yeah, so there are specific skills that people can learn that they would make them more effective when they step into those roles more effective when they step into those roles. Also, to be compassionate If you choose to step into that role, make sure that you are compassionate for all the parties that you are engaging in and that you don't take a side. As soon as you take a side, one side won't trust you and you won't be effective in engaging effectively.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

And then speak about the cooperative model that I think is such a powerful model.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

You asked Felipe about Joe.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

So Joe was the person who facilitated our cooperative process when we, as Visions, used to have our retreats every year, and I really appreciated that about Visions too, that every year we had a retreat and at that retreat we had an opportunity to express our appreciations for each other and also to express our resentments, so that we learn to be honest about that, that we learn to be honest about that, and so you know, sharing elements of that cooperative process also a very valuable tool for us who choose to step into these transformational leadership roles.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Yeah, and you know, I think the most important thing for me is that visions taught me to live what I preach, to live with integrity, like in my relationship with women, that I think visions provides us with a way of living with each other us a way of living with each other, that we live the values of equality and mutual respect and all those values that I think we as leaders in South Africa desperately need, and to also experience the benefits of that. I think, like the quality of our relationships with each other in visions was such a wonderful lesson for me, just the closeness of relationships I have with men and women and never feeling competitive. Also, I think we benefited a great deal from the women being honest with us.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

I remember in the olden days, we would always expect the women to bring the jars and the equipment, and so we were often confronted about that. Another thing the women often confronted us about was sleeping in workshops. They would always point out that no women have ever slept in a workshop, and meanwhile, apparently a few of us nodded off Really and there was an element of entitlement in that. Well, and also the fact that you have such strong women in leadership roles and bishops. I think it's also been very helpful.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Yeah, so now the Visions model. You know it's been a great learning school for me and I learned such a lot of tools, but also it contributed to my own development, and continue to do that, because I think it also taught me that you always have to learn, taught me that you always have to learn, and you know you're always confronted with elements of yourself that you are in a position to change and make decisions about to change. So, yeah, I'm you know I'm really looking the way that you energize particularly Cecil, because Cecil can't wait to do more. Visions work. Yeah, yeah, so great. So thank you for this too. It's good to talk and to think about this.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

For sure. I have been looking forward to this interview, so I'm very glad that we've made the time. It's always wonderful to have an excuse to come out to this beautiful, beautiful place that you live and I don't know. I've just really enjoyed getting to know you over this past year, year and a half, and I'm excited now that, with this, more folks who are in my cohort at Visions, who haven't necessarily met you, will have an opportunity to get to know you a little bit.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Okay, wonderful as will our community.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

Yeah, thank you so much, julian.

Dr. Julian Sonn:

Okay, you're very welcome.

Dr. Leena Akhtar:

We are celebrating our 40th anniversary in Boston on September 27th 2024. Anniversary in Boston on September 27th 2024. And we have a very exciting lineup of guests of honor, including Renee Myers, gloria Steinem and the Reverend Dr William J Barber. If you're interested in attending or sponsoring, there's a link to event information in the show notes. I very much hope we'll see you there. In addition to our work in organizations, visions offers a host of public-facing workshops, ranging from our four-day Pace One workshop to shorter offerings like Fundamentals of Inclusivity, to our monthly Pay what you Can, guidelines for Effective Cross-Cultural Dialogue, which is a great 75-minute introduction to how we work and our approach. I warmly invite you to attend. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.