IlluviTalks #1 - Web3 Gaming: Interoperable Metaverse, VR, AR & AI – Ethereum vs Solana vs Cardano

Where is the future of Web3 Gaming headed?  Will it be on Ethereum vs Solana vs Cardano? Will we see an interoperable metaverse? If so, what Web3 infrastructure is needed and how will VR, AR and AI play into it?  Our expert panel of Volkin, Nick Black, and TSG tackle these topics and more!

EXPERT PANEL & HOST (follow them)
Andrew Wall (aka Awall) - https://twitter.com/awallcrypto
Volkin - https://youtube.com/channel/UCZHEyqUX3XP38qB9PWiQjOw
Nick Black - https://moneymorninglive.com/page/nick-black-replays + https://twitter.com/NicholasBlack60
TSG - https://www.youtube.com/tsgilluvium + https://twitter.com/TSG__7

ABOUT THE GAME
Illuvium is an exploration looter and collectible autobattler game built on the Ethereum Blockchain, releasing on PC and Mac in 2022. Play and earn in a graphically-rich, vividly-realized sci-fi adventure and conquer the wilderness to help your crash-landed colony flourish.

Race across stunning alien landscapes on your quest to uncover the cause of the cataclysm that shattered Illuvium. Hunt and capture Illuvials, powerful creatures who have ruled the land unchallenged until your arrival. Train and fuse your Illuvials into powerful evolutions. Build your ultimate Illuvial team to take into battles and tournaments in PvE and PvP Arenas. Use your creativity to build unique synergies to outsmart your opponents and progress to the top as become the most legendary Ranger on this planet.

Illuvium’s collectible NFT games feature crypto token assets with functionality and a gaming use case, interoperable across the Illuvium universe and the larger DeFi metaverse. The decentralized NFT collection offers players a user-maintained custody never before possible in mainstream gaming.

#IlluviTalks #Web3Gaming

♊ Terms and Conditions ♊
Content on the official Illuvium website and social media does not constitute financial advice. You are responsible for doing your own research and seeking independent professional advice about your involvement with the Illuvium DAO and any Illuvium products or services. Illuvium products (such as tokens including ILV, sILV2, Land NFTs) and services (Illuvium game) are not financial products and accordingly the Illuvium DAO is not licensed by any regulator. Please be on constant alert for scams. You should read and ensure you understand the terms and conditions available on the official Illuvium website before engaging with the Illuvium DAO or any Illuvium products or services.

🧠 Learn More About Illuvium: https://www.illuvium.io/
🏔️ Explore the IlluviDEX v2: https://illuvidex.illuvium.io/
🎮 Register For BETA Access: https://play.illuvium.io/
🪪 Build Your Personalized Illuvitar: https://www.illuvium.io/illuvitars

Transcript

luva talks time what's up everybody andrew wahl here with elluvium and i'm excited to bring eluva talks into video format into 2022. in today's episode we're going to be talking about the vision for web 3 gaming are we going to have an interoperable metaverse are vr and ar ever gonna actually happen to be a thing will ai transform the gaming industry in our experiences on the internet ethereum versus solana versus cardano we're gonna take a look at their best games their best infrastructure and assess whether they're good or not and whether they're worth your time you're going to learn something new in this episode i guarantee it and i've got an expert stacked panel of guests here with me today including this man right here vulcan content creator joining me on the show today vulcan how are you doing it's like 2 30 a.m where you're at are you alive yep i'm all good dude just an early start of the the day so i can i can chill for as long as you want we can get into it i'm looking forward to it perfect also on the panel i've got a friend of mine colleague nick black crypto currency and digital asset consultant and manager he actually helped me get into crypto and pushed me the right direction and now he's working in the financial publishing industry and he's now sort of a crypto celebrity here he is nick black how you doing buddy good there's no crypto celebrities we're just different degrees of losers just some of us have more money i love it yup that that's his personality everybody that's why i brought him in he'll say it exactly how it is he's the on-air host for money morning live a show that some of my favorite colleagues actually produce along with him so really good show money morning live also on the show it's so stacked over here because we've got tsg in the house tsg is a content creator welcome to the show yo what's up what's up man i'm uh i'm excited to be here i'm really looking forward to to the conversation we're gonna have today so appreciate you having me on man what's up guys i'm very excited as well we've got a stacked agenda that we need to cover so many amazing topics including cardano games solana games ethereum games interoperable metaverse web3 infrastructure vr ar ai in gaming everything needs to be covered today every single thing but really quick nothing we say is financial advice on this show it's our opinions we're going to keep it real with you we're going to try to educate you but you need to do your own research and perhaps watching this episode is a part of that research but certainly we are not trying to convince you to buy anything or another thing please be smart and understand we are just internet guys that are sharing our opinion and it's really important that you go to elluvium.io slash alouvitars and today you can build in a louvitar it's a cool nft for alluvium i need to shill that because it's literally my job great let's go into the topics wait andrew i got a question yes if you're building a louvitar and you do it wrong are you in a louvitard aren't you are not the only person to make that joke so many people i know have made that joke privately and you're the only one that has the balls to make it publicly oh man it sounds like you're not familiar with are there the louvitar buses of louvitards that show up that's the answer to that question is yes yes yes we need a pallet cleanser here's what they look like check it out

and there it is let's start out with cardano games since nick is here and he is maybe the most bullish on cardano of any person i've ever seen on planet earth did you know that video games are on cardano i did a ton of research on this and i wanted to share with everyone just a couple examples of some cardinal games and then i want to kick it over to nick who's the most knowledgeable about cardano of any human on earth i'm aware of did you know there's this game called cornucopias which is this sort of immersive world game on uh cardano it's the sort of double a quality sort of game where you go out in the open world sort of got this wild westy sort of feel with play to earn and build to earn and they're kind of going with that metaverse angle which is interesting and there's also a card game being built on cardano called drac cards which has its own original ip and um some kind of cool looking cards it's sort of a double-a sort of looking trading card game i thought this was interesting to dive into this world of cardano it seems like it's very very early on cardano gaming because smart contracts more or less just recently became available in the capacity that developers could start maybe dreaming of making games in the cardano gaming ecosystem so the question goes to you nick what are your thoughts on the cardano gaming ecosystem are the games good or bad and is gaming even critical at all to cardano's success it's probably not right now critical it's probably not even very interesting i think evidenced by that there's only a few games that are even titles that are building you know if you don't have the infrastructure to build you know you then you're like well soon any minute we're going to be able to and developers are trying to develop right they're trying to and game builders trying to design and think you know storytellers want to tell stories and i just don't think it's enough to you know cardano is a lot of things um and what i think the game space will look like i don't think we know i don't think and also cardano is not about building the game space of the future they're just about building a rail of infrastructure where anybody can come and if it fits within the kind of the quality you know you know if you're a developer and you go ooh you know i need to run transactions at a certain speed i need to have this kind of density you know all of these kind of software concerns then it might make sense that you would go okay let's build into cardano but any really good quality game i think in the future is probably going to run on a bunch of different infrastructure rails so that it's cross-chain you know you know you could say multi-currency but it's really not about the currency it's just about where are you going to have the best gaming experience and who builds those rails cardano is is less about that and more about just building the rails so that like in africa you could have digital identity and medical recording and digital on-chain voting and you know on-chain governance of currency and credit scoring and credit availability and free-flowing cash and things like this to build from the ground up a society that has no record keeping if in that process there's some some cool games that roll out yeah that's great but i don't think that the guys the team at cardano charles hoskinson and then going over to the ai space they're very close with singularitynet they're not going how do we build the gaming infrastructure of the future they're they're saying how do we build the infrastructure for what the world looks like five years from now that totally makes sense and you know i was i feel like we're super early on cardano because the smart contracts are so early but i know you also noticed we were so early that many of the cardinal games that are available either have like cardano the name in the name of the game or ada in the name to try to just appeal to that core cardano army audience and they appeared to be developed by and appealing to an older audience of 35 to 55 year olds which just generally cardano does skew a little bit older uh it'll correct me if i'm wrong there nick and then i wasn't seeing anything that resembled a triple a web 2 game or that even aspires to become that so i'm not currently seeing any mainstream potential with cardano gaming but it sounds like your impression of cardinal games right now nick is they kind of don't really care right that's not the main enchilada this is just a side dish yeah they want to they want to create a way for humanity to move forward to bank all of these unbanked or marginally bank people and to protect you know the integrity of data in the future in a in a semi-permissioned or mostly decentralized unpermissioned way right like you should you should control your data you should control your history you should control your value units whatever way you want to store those it should not be someone else telling you well we had to close the bank today sorry sorry africa you can't you can't buy food because you know we don't want a bank run so you should have control of a lot of these things you also have a situation where you have people that are incredibly educated but maybe they like a neurosurgeon in africa well their school or university burned on fire when some warlord didn't get his way so i was driving an uber in new york city which is an incredible waste of intellect right not that uber drivers aren't awesome but maybe people that do brain surgery should be doing brain surgery instead of you know going to 32nd street and turning left and so in a situation like that you have to build those rails ethereum was the first set of rails so it makes sense that everybody goes in that direction you launched a token in the past you went through ethereum you launched anything in the past nfts you used ethereum because well there was no other choice and then when other companies rushed to get a choice out there solana you see what happens it's a dumpster fire we're gonna get to solana next hit pause on your solana really quick but yeah go ahead but just just to summarize the the when you're looking at the team of cardano they are a peer-reviewed academics first type system where they go slow and they go steady and they implement very good very clean very elegant battle tested software and if it's not ready they don't launch they're not a move fast and break stuff type organization so what you get is slower more methodical but very clean elegant software and i think that's the infrastructure proposition they're making and for gaming developers that might not be the place but in the future all of these layer ones will probably be the place interesting vulcan and tsg do you have any opinions on cardano gaming i know it's like primordial goo early over there or you're just kind of not even not even on your radar right now because it's too early too early for me it's it's and and i don't think it's necessarily like this kind of summarizes the whole the whole talk in general but it's like i don't think it's necessarily about the chain it's just about the game if you've got a good game that works obviously the chain the infrastructure is going to help but it's about the game and you know there's nothing that i'm saying on cardona cardano that i'm like hanging for essentially makes sense tsg you're a nod in your head is that your generally your position as well on card yeah yeah uh well like current like my current state of my my current opinion on cardano is yeah i'm not even like honestly looking at it but i'm not against it either just right now the current state there's nothing really in the gaming space that makes me want to spend a lot of time but i think in the future and again like somewhat like what i'm i'm gonna do what vulcan kind of didn't summarize my thoughts pretty much on the discussion but i believe that like in the future the thing is there's two things that we're gonna be looking at right and that i think are gonna be super important and it's one the games but i think more important than the games is actually the accessibility of of access because you could have like an amazing game but if consumers have to jump through mad amounts of hoops to get onto that game chances are this is not going to play the game but if you have a really bad game but it's very very easy for you just to try it out you're probably going to get more people to at least try it out so i think that's where we're kind of going to go in the future and like in regards to all of the chains i don't think one chain is going to be better than the other or like i don't think one chain is going to win i'll say that oh the way i look at the different chains is somewhat like a playstation or an xbox or a nintendo you're not going to be like very there are very few people in the world that say i only play sony playstation and i'm not even going to look at the other games if there's an exclusive on on xbox most people will have a playstation and an xbox and i think that's what's gonna happen here as well once quality games come out in the next two to three maybe five years on cardinal on solana on ethereum we'll kind of just choose the different blockchains like we do um consoles so i think that's the way we're going to go forward and right now with cardinal i just don't see anything that's really like if that's the nintendo uh it's nothing's there's no nintendo games on there that really makes me want to go pick that up just yet so once the good exclusives come out i'll pay a bit more attention but for now it's still in development i'd say well if cardano is super in development super early it's not as important seems to be the panel to cardano's success seems to be the consensus there let's talk then about solana solana gaming is a much larger part of the conversation in that ecosystem don't worry alluvium people we're getting to ethereum as well we're all lining up to talk about how they can potentially work together or not solana games the big the big boy there is obviously uh star atlas it's the only game that i could find and i did hours of research that actually aspires be a aaa game uh in the solana ecosystem and star atlas according to their own ceo michael wagner uh this one's coming out 2027 to 2029 so we probably aren't we are obviously uh according to them even we aren't going to see this game until the end of the decade the other major game that was on the salon ecosystem that people were talking about was defy land and this is like a single a or double a style farmville game uh basically so solana though solana's a big name as a chain the only game i could find that actually aspired to maybe potentially be mainstream or become a large game that could attract a lot of gamers with star atlas so i want to kick it over to our content creators first on this one starting with vulcan if that's it on solana i mean i know some other games but they're basically double a or indie style games is gaming on solana even a thing does it matter is it important that the success of solana at all what are your thoughts on that vulcan well firstly i hope no one got hacked yesterday that's that's the first thing uh that that was that was horrible uh i i still don't i only just woke up so i don't know if they found out what happened there so i jumped on and transferred all my now but uh solana gaming yes star atlas if they do what they're talking about i'm wrapped uh sort of in the space i've sort of transitioned away from looking at what games are saying they're going to do and more just waiting to see what they actually do because uh there's a lot of talk about what games going to do but until you actually see it i'm just not too stressed i i when i first jumped into the space i got excited about a bunch of things um then you know it just doesn't quite happen so i'm waiting for games to actually launch to see what they do now solana obviously came in and it was that you know that chain where it's like okay we got like really quick really cheap transactions that make it really easy but the reason i just talked at the start about that whole idea of and i might be stepping in on a future topic but i just wanted to mention it about the the hack that went on with solana um with some of the wallets is that i think this is a big issue for gaming in general because when you're trying to get just gamers who want to play games and let's face it gamers a lot of them won't be looking at hard wallets and stuff like that they'll be using hot wallets and the easy solution is whatever i can do to quickly get in yeah on top of that a lot of them you know a lot of the games not saying salon specifically but a lot of uh the play to earn games and a lot of gaming in general is moving to mobile so a lot of people would then you know link their wallets to their mobile and i believe as far as i can see from this hack what the issue was it was somewhere between linking into ios that made a vulnerability where they could get keys or something i don't know exactly how it worked but when you've got stuff like that that can happen and the actual just ability to play games and know that you're going to be able to come back into that game and play it your stuff's going to be there is a big issue for getting gamers into the space because like even myself i've been here for about a year and a bit and even i'm like when i hold stuff in my wallet if i've got a decent amount of stuff in my wallet it's like i i get nervous just holding it i'm like i just want to play games and like this is like the feeling that you get so i think that's a big hurdle we got to overcome um and like i said that's why i mentioned the hack that happened on solana but back to general solana i think when it launched um a lot of games got really excited about that you know the speed of transactions and and the cheap transaction fees because when this for when this really took off was when you know eth you were paying a hundred dollars for for gas and it just it wasn't going to be viable obviously we've got layers two layer twos and stuff like that but i think that was like the big grab to it as for the games i can't stand farmville games that's not my style star atlas like i said if it does what it's saying it will do fantastic um i still think honestly the only crypto game that i actually the only other crypto game that i play pretty much daily at the moment is a bit of a different concept and i feel like there is open room open for different concepts of games to get in that aren't genuine games and the one like i play every day is steppen because you know you get digital runners and it actually makes me go out and do exercise every day and the thing is it's funny because you've got a certain amount of energy to use every day and i will go out and i will run for that specific amount of time so it's it's one of those things where as a gamer for me it's like i have this mental block from playing mobile games that if i have stamina at cap and i've got all my stamina full it's like something in my brain where just like you can't do that you can't overcap your stamina like and and so for me it's actually forcing me to go out and go on walks and runs because of that gaming side of me where i'm like i can't let this happen so i've got to go out so i'm doing 50 minutes of exercise a day because of that and i think that type of thing is actually really good for onboarding people into the space because not only is it just about a game because with everything else when if the game you know goes to zero which steppen has dropped a lot like everything in the last few months um but you know if if everything else if it goes to zero you're left with sort of nothing whereas this at least you know it's got you into a lifestyle habit so that's sort of where i'm at with solana that's the only game i currently play on solana um but you know it's got other value besides just the game as for actual games we gotta wait and see what they produce got it quickly tsg what are your thoughts on solana gaming ecosystem obviously steppen uh worthy of being an honorable mention of course on the list here in with solana maybe more so than defy land probably should have put that on yeah tsg what are your thoughts on uh on on solano gaming ecosystem is it is it viable is it viable uh it's definitely viable like what vulcan kind of said um i i want to be transparent i haven't actually ventured into celina gaming so this is kind of just me talking off the cuff uh in regards to is it viable definitely with stefan we've seen seen it work um or we've seen the benefits of it i should say the thing that i'm worried about with uh celina are the outages because if you're playing there you've actually got your funds there you've got a decent amount of capital in there like the outages is just something that i'd be worried about yet so yeah exactly exactly um so that's something that i'm i'm just looking at also i think it's funny that with cardino we're looking at it where the games that they they're kind of building like you said a single a or double a games uh and then you've got the complete opposite with solana with star atlas which isn't even a triple a game that's like a futuristic game and it's just like it's so crazy how like there's no kind of all right this is how we're gonna get to just a triple a game yet it's just we're doing like the simple single a double a's and then solana's saying star atlas is saying yo let's do this crazy mass aaa game of another level we've never seen before so i think the gap there is just a lot so i think it's hard yeah it's hard to see um again i want our atlas to do what they're saying they're doing um but honestly just based on like i've said it in multiple discussions uh previously after the debate the the debate um man we've seen with uh cyberpunk cyberpunk was in development for nine years and the scope of that was much smaller than star atlas so star alice is like the shining star of solana and it just seems i won't say improbable i'm just it seems very difficult for them to actually achieve the scope that they're putting out so aligned with what vulcan said before i'm very much at the point where i don't really want to hear the talk anymore i no no i don't want to hear the talking but i'm going to hold off on getting excited uh listening to the talks i actually want to see some action i want to see some progress some actual results um that's probably going to be it and uh regarding the actual question of is gaming critical for solana's success uh i don't think so i don't think it's critical for any blockchain's success i think there's way more utility in the world than gaming i think gaming is a big part to play but i don't think it's like a critical component um somewhat like what nick was saying with cardinal if they can achieve everything else that they're trying to do gaming just seems like the cherry on top but yeah nick it sounded like you had something spicy to say about solana i know that you maybe have some ethical concerns or something like that which is a dumpster i'll give you a couple minutes what do you mean by it's a dumpster it tells

listen any of these protocols you know they're built on having three things right three things that you definitely need and this is all these games they're going to be amazing we're going to play a variety of them my personal opinion is that the kind of banner games is not going to come from crypto into the real world it's going to go from the real world backwards right you're going to see big titles choosing uh platforms to run on choosing protocols to partner with like a call of duty like a population one like whatever i think it goes that way and back not from from this little tiny tiny little space illiquid space of crypto into the rest of the world you will see a couple of you know high flyers that people go oh that's cool right like maybe eluvium is the one where people go oh that's badass but mostly you'll see big titles that have hundreds of millions of players and they'll go you know might be it might make sense for us to pony up with one of these infrastructure plays and have some kind of you know use utility and potential adoption in some some monetized network however they decide to describe value but all of these things are built on a protocol and those protocols are run by humans and sacrifices are made here and there like in crypto to get it right if you build a protocol your protocol game theoretically has to have some fundamental things and without these it will not work you have to have consistency you have to have liveness and you have to have termination of transactions and solana does not have those they they said long ago we're going to go as fast as we can we're going to get to market why because they were pushed by some vcs that had their hands right up their ass this was a complete vc play with guys that don't have a lot of in you know good chops in the design all the good designers were designing five years before solana these are two dudes that were surfing they don't have good dna they have weak game theory this was and this isn't i'm not calling them out you don't i don't no one has tell us what you really think nick black well it's just an obvious fail it's an obvious like how many times does something have to if you're if your wife's pacemaker grandma's pacemaker failed three out of four out of seven days every week how many network outages before you're like bro this pacemaker sucks well one grandma's dead right and you know so solana first went we're gonna get all the banks because we're so fast well they weren't fast if you run two computers next to each other they can do transactions really fast in a cloistered environment but when you expose them to the realities of the world that we live in and internet and attackers and humans that are gaming these things and this big network of people that have to support it and by the way your developers lie about the token supply and they steal 12 million tokens and give like three million back and then just say they lost the 12 listen man they stole nine effing million tokens at two hundred dollars a token and then just told everyone just to move on so they lie they cheat they steal they have poor game theory and they can't develop so at all you go they're trying to build an uh a skyscraper on top of toothpicks and and explosives it's like what do you think so it's not gonna work out it's not gonna work out for gaming then you don't think it's probably not gonna work out for anything now now on the other side of it if i was stuck in solana i bought in it like 189 bucks because i'm a rube and i listen to these idiots sell me this thing and this is just from the investment side i would go is there anything this network can do now when you have a market like the nft space where maybe you don't need tons and tons and tons of real-time transactions and maybe the uptime and consistency liveness termination maybe those aren't super important because you might be buying pieces of art or the future of nfts like paper documents data all this kind of stuff maybe it would make sense for them to kind of focus their efforts right there so i think solana i'm not a complete hater i think maybe they have a future in uh some kind of distributed data some kind of storage of documents things like that but if you have to do something in real time solana is not no bank on earth is going to work with them because they're you know 27 outages in you're like well the the bank of argentina has more uptime and they use like an abacus to do their math right so that's this is a savage solana takedown i was not expecting something this juicy about something oh

what do you think of the chances of them turning it around because you said like there is a possibility for them to kind of pivot into a new kind of thing what do you think they can absolutely pivot there's no turning around they built on bad rails with bad game theory their their whole consensus mechanism it just doesn't fly so they would have to hit the rest you know what they should do they should just buy the other protocol layers they should take solana should take their entire treasury and they should buy cardano polka dot cosmos they should buy near they should buy ethereum they should buy matic and they should just dissolve their company into those companies they should run on top of optimism they should leverage collateral with uh with harmony one and then salon is fixed by existing no more wow that was that was so much better than like i'm not even going to say what i think about solana mike dropped there from nick on solana let's move on to ethereum games then so in stark contrast to uh to my research with cardano games and solana games cardano almost had nothing i mean it had a few games solana had more some you know larger let's say maybe double a in some cases quadruple a games let's say with solana with star atlas ethereum though it was actually difficult for me to narrow down my list of games to ones that i could show everybody here because there's so many bigger games uh which is encouraging obviously for uh the ethereum ecosystem which is significantly larger obviously you know about sandbox let's say a uh maybe a minecraft equivalent let's say god's unchained a hearthstone equivalent eluvium a team fight tactics equivalent if we're going to simplify it and honorable mentions go out to axia infinity decentraland gala games you name it there's so many titles on ethereum this ecosystem is so much larger and developed right now obviously though it is older and it has been around the block for much longer and erc20 obviously has played a a big uh a big role let's say and when developers are looking at where i want where do i want to deploy my money which network do i want to be on they're thinking well i want to be on the biggest network obviously with the most users and so ethereum has kind of been winning because it is the big it is the biggest because it is the biggest and then with layer two solutions coming along the way and dropping gas fees down to zero if you're able to get on layer two that's been solving some of the transaction issues so time to go around the table and i'll go to vulcan first the ethereum gaming ecosystem is more developed right now but do you think it will stay number one and do you think it matters if it stays number one vulcan well yeah i think like at the moment it's hard to know what's going to happen in the future like the spacex so quick but i i just think just like you said it's the biggest because it's the biggest and that will keep uh attracting more people to it because it is the biggest and that's pretty much it and if one person goes there um kind of like what was talked about earlier about how um you know mainstream games putting crypto in will bring people to crypto i think it's a bit of it's a bit more extended than that where we need good crypto games to show mainstream games how to do it before they can bring it in and do it tastefully because i've seen more on the mobile side but like i know you or me andrew spoke about this with um some games coming from mobile from those developers and they just have disgusting tokenomics and models that just can't work and i think that's the biggest problem at the moment is obviously with axi where the economic model was it was always going to zero so when you've got stuff like that where it's like there's some context on that so everybody understands the the economic model for axi was always going to zero because their token could be infinitely printed which debased the in-game currency so that's what you mean it was always yes similar to fiat currency and any other currency that can be printed is that what you mean yes that's that's exactly it so like for me personally like if if a game has infinite printed tokens with nothing else to support that it's it's just sort of like that's where i see it going also i don't like pre-sale nfts because i've played it through a lot of games like crypto games just sort of mobile style games that they make crypto versions of and if you have pre-sale nfts you always get this thing where the the day of launch or the day before launch the prices of these pre-sale nfts because you need them to play the game goes through the roof then as soon as the game launches you know those people get their head start they can dump some stuff on other people and the strategy for me when i was playing through all these games was dump quick because it's going to go down and that's what happens because once you get to your peak level of players um because everything got so inflated from the early people trying to get the first stuff so that they could earn in these games it all just comes collapsing down because now you have less people coming in buying it so now you're trying to sell things cheaper and supply and demand basically is just what happens so that's that like that's the biggest issue for me in that sense but on ethereum like i said axi sort of gave uh it was great because it gave exposure but then on the flip side when it all comes crumbling down then it gives very negative exposure to the mainstream so i definitely think to answer the question i think ethereum will probably at this stage be the place where most games go to because it is the biggest most known also when you're the biggest you probably have the most development for these types of things i'm not great on that sort of back end type stuff but that's just the way i view it i think that will happen um but yeah i think until we get like to get more in the space i think we just need some good examples to you know promote that it can be done well make sense tsg what are your thoughts here is ethereum um i want to frame this a little bit differently for you obviously we know ethereum is the biggest and being big is good in india industry sure but is gaming critical to ethereum's success given all the other utility that ethereum can offer especially with uh obviously uh stable coins and all the other different applications eth brings to the table seems to kind of lead innovation sometimes because it's big what are your thoughts on how critical gaming is to ethereum's success yeah okay so again i'm kind of repeating i'll repeat myself again i don't think for any chain the gaming is critical for their success right like you kind of mentioned already there's the d5 stuff that's going on we have the nft thing that's going on and i think well currently the whole nft craze is just on the outside of things once we start actually implementing different uses for nfts actual like club tokens once they were uh we started using the gym memberships restaurant memberships golf memberships uh plane tickets things like that like once we use the actual technology i think that's just gonna be the way it is and i think again we we already kind of mentioned that that because ethereum is the biggest one it's the way i look at it is i and i use this analogy quite a bit but i think it's like i call it the tesla effect right where with uh evs electric vehicles right now tesla's so far ahead that like it no one else can really truly catch up and that's not to say that it won't happen eventually like we see what's happened with we've seen what's happened with nokia things like that uh so you can lose your top spot but i think ethereum is so far ahead right now and because it's so far ahead all the development is going towards them um i think that that's just they're gonna hold that top spot for a while also second uh i'm gonna touch back on what uh nick mentioned as well i actually agree with him i don't think all of these like crypto games are the things that's gonna bring gamers into block like the blockchain and went through gaming i don't think that's what's gonna happen what i think is gonna happen and this is what i see going on right now i think axi did a really really great thing i think not that they're a great project not that anything like that obviously we know they were destined to fail but they showed the possibility the potential of what web3 gaming can do what blockchain gaming can do you mean do you mean the adoption potential the fact that something could go viral it could take off it could have a pokemon go style moment where everybody's talking about it is that what you mean correct and also like that and the benefits like they there were benefits for the players as well so the adoption and the benefit side so i think that was a big thing i think the next step that's going to happen is a game and i am going to just say this because i i can't be completely objective i think a game like eluvian once now with uh the legacy gamers and legacy um gaming studios have seen the potential for adoption and the benefits the next thing now is we need an actual aaa game to make it sustainable once we get we've got the potential out the way now once we get that actual quality of gameplay uh that matches what we're used to now that's when we're actually gonna see like all right like the guys like minecraft you talk about sandbox minecraft is saying that they're against nfts i think once we actually get like a good aaa game out there and it's actually starting to garner some attention and not die out like axi did i think that's when like like you said the call of duty's and other things like that are going to to switch on and be like we actually need to pay this some attention instead of just fighting it so that's the way i see it going i think actually did amazing with with garnering that original attention on the potential and i think what we're going to need to do is we're gonna need to find one or two maybe like like a handful i'll say a handful of triple a games of like the utmost quality to actually get the the legacy gaming studios to realize yo this is actually where we're gonna go now this is where we have to go now otherwise we're just gonna miss out um so i think that's what's gonna happen and then it's not just gonna be a whole bunch of new games popping up um and taking over the world that's not gonna happen it's gonna be a handful for sure got it nick i know you think salon is a dumpster fire let's put that aside just strictly in terms of gaming and the importance of something like gaming for the adoption of ethereum do you think it's that critical to the adoption of ethereum or do you see ethereum as this much larger beast that has so many more other applications and maybe it's just one gem in the infinity gauntlet not the most important one what's your take what's your take on that it's one of many right like you know what tsg was talking about with um you know minecraft saying no nfts no no that's not exactly what they said they said not your nfts we'll we'll do something when we want to but we're not going to let someone else reap the benefits right so if they do something they're going to launch it it will probably sit on top of polygon because matic seems to be the choice of everybody which that should also be a big alarm to those of you that have not been following matic that maybe it's worth looking at again and matic is a layer 2 that's starting to look a lot more like a layer one they partner with matic i mean uh maddox partnered they're in the disney accelerated program they partner with facebook they're gonna be running uh underneath transactions for uh instagram as instagram tries to usurp tik tok and all this kind of stuff wax is very interesting too um but if you look at who's doing the deals the deals with the the major kind of you know brand names it's you know probably in the back in the background it's probably al grand with at the banking level it's ethereum in the public facing like when we look at projects if you're gonna launch something what's the easiest you know probably ethereum well a few months ago maybe now it's probably a handful and and what are the brand names leaning on they're leaning on matic so there's a good chance that any of these big titles is going to be cross-platform cross-chain very easily accessible they won't want to like if you're call of duty and you and you want to build out a whole network of in-game asset transfers and nfts and all this kind of stuff you probably don't want to alienate anyone so you're going to run on some network that has some inner chain operability but you're not going to do it yet because those haven't worked yet you're gonna watch and you're gonna wait and then you're gonna monetize it for you you're not gonna go make six dudes in a closet that work at polka dot rich when you can launch on any of these rails or all of them at the same time they're like there's no reason that a minecraft couldn't do a launch that is that is some kind of omnibus launch on matic on ethereum on cardano on on al goran on you know on near and they could just go for everyone similar to what was spoken about earlier if you have a aaa game you're gonna launch it on playstation on xbox on pc you're gonna try to do a mobile port you're gonna do every distribution channel in every country possible to maximize revenue so it only makes sense in this case right so i think the future's multi-chain as far as ethereum specifically they have to scale and it's not so clear that they're going to get that done this this merge that's coming is not them scaling it's a step towards ethereum too but it's one it's it's the merge followed by uh what is it the the surge the verge the purge and the splurge i'm not kidding like sounds like everybody follow that that's good marketing these are all these iterative upgrades so that maybe in 2025 we have ethereum two the problem is these other protocols near an algorandi cosmos and cardano and you know go down the list and matic and some of these layer twos like optimism and things like that that are making life easier it's not they're not just scaling ethereum they're scaling a multitude of other protocols if you're a designer right now you're not going to wait and go well i hope vitalik and his team get it together by 2025. usually say well what can we do right now well right now we can launch on these other 18 protocols so let's do that that totally makes sense and just my quick two cents here on ethereum i hinted at it a little bit earlier but for me the impact when it comes to a particular blockchain or a particular technology or platform like ethereum do you have games that have mass appeal and that could potentially bring in hundreds of millions of players and so far i think ethereum is uh the only option right now that even is attempting to do that with sandbox gods unchained eluvium and a number of other titles and the ones that are adopting those layer two solutions like nick is talking about to go gas less are the ones that actually even have a chance at all of doing mainstream adoption uh because people dropping uh even any meaningful amount of money in a transaction fee having any transaction fee at all will be completely unacceptable uh to a mainstream gamer and so layer twos are basically mandatory on aetherium if we're going to be viable there you have the interoperability between these we've been talking about if you're a game developer game publisher of the future you want to distribute multi-chain you're not thinking i want to have this necessarily on on all the consoles pc mobile of course you're thinking about that you also you have to think about that the hardware and you have to think about this now the software distribution as well and how you handle your assets that is a new fascinating concept and so obviously big names in this space include folks like polka dot uh multi-chain vision they kind of own that as sort of the brand if you will of interoperability and um eluvium for example is partnered with chain link who has you know industry standard oracle technology to help with interoperability and to help connect the dots on the blockchain and so i want to kick this over to nick first first this interval future do you think that it's possible for there to be some sort of let's say interoperable metaverse whatever the hell that means right and if so if not what are the challenges or what are the opportunities there we've all seen ready player one right where you're seamlessly going through different cities and you seem to be playing different video games at will with different intellectual properties nilly willy you're getting coins in your pocket one minute you're getting you're turning into a robot the next minute it's just seamlessly interoperable let's say that's on one end of the spectrum of ready player one then currently we're at the other end of the spectrum of almost nothing talks to each other at all yet so where are we going to end up in that spectrum of fantasy and reality nick let's kick it over to you so i just think it's it's important to define what i think a metaverse is going to look like because we're we're approaching that look you know 30 years ago we didn't have much in the way of video games except like like pong or whatever but look where we are now where you slip on your oculus or your eye or your rift or whatever and within a few minutes you just you check out of reality and that's your reality and you don't really question it so imagine 50 years 100 years 200 years from now so i mean i think the games will get better and better and more hyper real and more visceral and we will be able to to enter that world and forget about this world quicker and quicker and quicker so you say okay what would they what would a metaverse look like well it's going to be some extension with artificial general intelligence or or heavy heavy swarms of ai underneath uh ar vr and xr right augmented reality artificial artificial reality uh kind of a virtual reality scenario and then uh extended reality and so whatever that looks like which we don't know but we know what it might look like it might look like a place where you can't determine that you're there and then of course all sorts of questions arise like are we already there right but that's an elon musk type thing but what i would say is as an investor i'm buying the underlying infrastructure of anybody that could be underneath that i'm not telling anybody what to do i'm just telling you how i got effing rich and so the way i did it was i just said what do i think crypto's going to look like for the next three or four years i want to buy all of the rails i want to do what all those old rich fat white dudes did when america started they just bought all the streets they bought the railways they bought the highways even before they were highways and they just let everyone else build on top and so that's kind of the way i look at the metaverse i want to i just want to be a part of the infrastructure which means the whole basket so i want exposure to ethereum and cardano and uh singularity net and i want exposure to um any of the competent ai players i want exposure to apple and i want facebook even meta everybody's like oh mark zuckerberg's stupid bro mark zuckerberg is not stupid right like i agree with you i i i you might not like him but he's that he's very savvy and he understands where the future is i mean there's a reason why he's got 10 000 people right now working full-time on oculus we'll talk about vr in a bit oculus technology and why he rebranded and repositioned his entire company toward metaverse he's not dumb he see he sees the future like you're talking about and you may hate his guts but he's he is now leading the way in the web 2 world toward web 3 and it was a it was a gangster move and i totally agree with this move whether people in this space like the fact that facebook's getting involved doesn't matter it's a good business move it's going to come from the brands i think the big brands are going to work their way in we're already going to have what next year end of next year i think is the tentative release date for the the apple the the glasses uh we've got uh the cambria which for those of you that are on the oculus that's the quest 2 pro which is uh it's it's a much more i don't want to get in the whole thing but the the cambria is going to be kind of the pro dev kit you know with pancake lenses and all this kind of stuff of the oh it's like an upgraded super badass oculus too then there's an oc there is another oculus coming but i think that's 2024 whereas the the cambria is this year like that's that's here in a couple months and then you have uh microsoft's kind of flop of a device we'll see but you've got all of these big you know google's going to take a another attempt after they failed with the glasses but all of these big brand companies are going to come out with their own version of how you should experience the meta environment and what and as that takes shape and again those brands the games they're not going to say oh only this one or only that one you will have games that are bound to those brands because of some kind of money deal but my guess is as this interoperability and as like you see already some games that are available on steam and other platforms they'll just escape and they'll escape because the developers don't want the games to be landlocked or clever developers and engineers will go screw you i'll just copy and paste and we'll just spin up another version of the game over here on this network all of these things that have value i think will start to kind of ooze into all of your or our metaverse experiences that's kind of where my head's at that makes sense and just to clarify people that are wondering like what is alluvium doing with interoperability obviously all of the uh like alluvial nfts and your louvitar and land will be interoperable between elluvium games which might not sound as remarkable to hardcores in this space but that is actually remarkable compared to web 2 games where if you you know have a let's say a gun and the old call of duty game you don't get that gun in the new call of duty game you don't get to use it so here in the short term at least the very short term i know that's baby steps interoperability but being in the short term having interoperability amongst your own games in your own franchise that's happening short term which to me is very very exciting and to in in that on its own is a huge upgrade i know that's only a baby step from that uh end of the spectrum toward ready player one but it is a step and i'm glad alluvium's taking that step what are your thoughts uh tsg on interoperability um do we even need interoperability between cardano solana ethereum hive whatever in the future and if so what does that look like to you uh the answer to that question yes we do need that but before i go into that i do want to make uh say one thing about the whole metavest mark zuckerberg thing as much as people might not like him there's actually going to be a huge benefit to him pulling off what he's trying to do with a centralized metaverse uh the same way that like for example a lot of people didn't actually like or were super against um iphones or smartphones back in the day and they're like nah we don't need that that's i prefer the buttons and once they got into the technology of the the smartphone and they got educated with the technology now those same people are switching up from the iphone to samsung huawei all these other different brands so i think the same thing is going to happen with uh medivas whereas we're always going to need a world where there is some centralization and some centralized systems and some decentralized systems so i think a lot of people it's the centralized version of the metavest is going to onboard a lot of people and once they get educated to the technology they understand the benef benefits of it they'll start to realize and say oh man the iphone isn't the best smartphone i can do a lot more than android and it's the same thing they'll look at the metaverse and say yo look this is this is cool i i got a lot out of it i get i'm used to this now but now let me see what's on the other side so i do want to mention that with everyone hating zuckerberg i think there's going to be um a lot of benefits to what he's doing as well um and also you don't need to play in that metavest if you don't want to but you still appreciate what it's going to do for the entire space uh regarding the actual intro interoperability i always struggle with that word um i agree with what you're saying andrew with i think the way i the way that alluvium is is doing it i think is the right way to go about it because it's the same thing i mentioned before with cardano and star atlas where it's just like we're trying to jump from like a double a single like single a to the most insane triple a and it's the same thing where like we have no interoperability right now and we want to go to ready player one like that's just logically it's just objectively insane that's just not gonna happen there's no like infrastructure to make that happen so what's the best thing we can do what alluvium's doing create your universe and make sure your ip is interoperable with everything in that ip that's the first step once you can see that and the proof of concept is there then you can start to expand and for us to expand in that way amongst first i think what we're going to do is we're going to work on that uh interoperability between ips once we see that work we're going to go into interoperability between in a single blockchain and then we go multi uh multi-chain and things like that so for me i i'm all for taking baby steps i think that's the way we're gonna make progress uh i think that's the the progression that i i'm kind of expecting to see ip single block chain multi chain and then we reach ready player one but i think that ready player one world that we're looking at uh i'm honestly thinking 10 to 15 years at least that's gonna be a while here's the correct pronunciation from the audience thank you it's interrupted ability perfect that's what i thought it was yeah that's right study that one me too thank you so much audience for that one vulcan interoperability what do you see being the short term midterm and long term here short term we know elluvium's doing interoperability amongst its own games let's talk about the medium term maybe what could we see in the somewhat foreseeable future here before we get to ready player one in your opinion and how exciting is that and what sort of impact do you think that will have on the gaming industry yeah so the the the the midterm is an interesting one for me because it depends how long we're talking and it also depends where development comes so like tsg said we we don't even have the games that want to like i don't think we really have any games that are fully launched at the moment that would be even something you'd have in a metaverse but the way i see it going mid-term would be more of a central hub with quote-unquote different doors you go through to go into the eluvian style where you've got like alluvium interoperability in between alluvium games so you can go through that door into the elluvium ecosystem and play those ones or you can go through that door and go into the star atlas um and play in that ecosystem or whatever game you want i think that's like where the midterm gets when you look at ready player one where everything is genuinely fused together i i like i think that's like like i don't know that's that's way beyond 10 to 15 years in my mind i just don't know how you get to that point that quick but yeah midterm i think all these different um ips make their own interoperability and then when you have like a central hub where you can explore through all of them um from a seamless so like you know if we get into the vr type scene and it's like okay even it doesn't even have to be vr it can be on your screen but you're like a central hub where that's where you like i think of wow terms like i think of playing wow and you're chilling out in orgrimmar because who who plays alliance so everyone plays horde you're chilling out in orga and you know you're just chilling with everyone and then you're going to go through portals to go to play whatever you want to play and that's sort of the thing i see so in terms of what we already have it'd be sort of like a basic decentraland type thing where it's like that's your hub and then you go through a portal and now you're in alluvium and that's sort of like the mid-term thing if if that's as mid-term as we're looking that i can sort of see some sort of interface whatever form it takes that can get you between games i mean the thing is we have interfaces like that already in web 2 things like steam or interfaces like that where you can go between games and then imx is building out obviously their nft marketplace they're basically the steam of web 3. but that's an entire experience inside of a rectangle like you guys are watching us in right now so taking it to the next level or being like what people maybe envision the metaverse would be like would be something that would be more of a 3d experience if you will i think that's what people think in their minds but i wonder is that whole 3d metaverse idea just sort of like flying cars in our minds like flying cars is the future people thought for like 100 years after cars were invented but it turns out flying cars are actually not very practical and they're not actually the best and easiest way to transport anywhere have you ever listened to a drone before it goes it's unbelievably loud that times 100 is a flying car i live next to an airport you do not want flying cars so i wonder how much of that is just kind of like this dream that we sort of have in our collective culture versus something that would actually be good and help us navigate around the metaverse i wonder i wonder if 2d is actually better for a while but tsg you had a question you wanted to bring up to the group yeah yeah because obviously i respect all of your minds right so the question i want to ask is actually just pretty much what you said kind of just asking the guys so one the whole ready player one thing do you think we will actually get there do you think it's gonna be good and if you just had to throw out a random number like i'm actually curious if you guys had to say like i'm gonna say 15 to 20 years if you guys could just based on what you guys are looking at now just a random number what are you guys expecting do we reach that when do we reach that is it even possible nick i want to i want to know your questions

no that's my answer five years yeah because look um these these things are pretty badass right um would you say that nasa was pretty badass like in 2010 that was some tooth that nasa was doing some cool stuff satellites nuclear weapons like all this kind of cool stuff looking at the early parts of the universe 13.7 billion you know light years away and this phone is more powerful than nasa 10 years ago than all of nasa like this is more powerful than all of nasa so you're saying the acceleration of technology and innovation is so powerful so fast we shouldn't underestimate ourselves in software there's the joke right like i i overestimate what i can do in a year but i underestimate what i can do in three because the whole world is developing and you don't know you ever watch the show house where it's like the creepy doctor and he would have an idea in that would solve some disease because he saw some girl drop like a glass of water and he'd be like it's where the water hits the tile it's the bleach it's the bleach or whatever and so you don't know those like aha moments you don't have those it's the bleach moments but the whole world is having those moments as they develop and so something on a tuesday can look a problem that you struggle with for 43 years while you got your phd is solved on thursday when some rube drops the like software drops the water and goes oh maybe it's the bleach and you go ah jesus and so software can go really really fast and then it opens the doors for all of these things that you didn't think were possible which then makes everything scale really fast so predicting scaling is is semi impossible we just know that about every 10 years or now it's less we start doubling like not logarithmically doubling so squaring our potential and and what is the square of where we're at right now in gaming effing awesome

dude i love it so much like i hope you're right i hope you're right i'm always the contrarian and i always want to set realistic expectations for myself even because i don't want to get my hopes up that the uh that the dream is possible in a shorter term if if headed toward the ready player one interoperability thing is available in five years that sounds cool maybe the technology might start to be available but then having developers develop upon that technology and then implement it you know it takes another five ten or fifteen years because you're assuming andrew you're assuming those developers are human right okay well then we're short on time right now we only have 10 minutes left so let's just go this tsg just took us all the way there let's go straight to those really far-looking topics then the vr the ar the ai these sort of technologies uh that um you know are sort of these flying car style technologies where we can see a version of that today that's clearly not the one but we can imagine the version of that in the future that could be integrated into our lives and let's let me give it to vulcan really quick to give his thoughts on these sorts of technologies then i know nick you got some kind of crazy ai rant we've got to hear so vulcan what are your thoughts on these emerging technologies let's call them a vr ar people always throw these out as buzz words right of like we're cool we're metaverse ar vr cool got investor money so what are your thoughts on the how realistic that is and how much of an impact that will have on gaming okay i'll i'll leave the vr for nick because i know he's he's super up for that i'll talk a bit about ar um the augmented reality is one that i like i i i'm actually a little bit more excited for augmented reality than complete virtual reality because i like the the idea of it being integrated into my world perfect example of kind of things just because i'm an omega nerd and this is what i like i played a lot of yu-gi-oh and if anyone watched the yu-gi-oh show as a kid and stuff like that you know you put your card down and then it gets projected in the world and then they battle like that's the kind of stuff i want to see from augmented reality along with you know obviously pokemon go even started it but like pokemon go was a massive craze i still play with my son and like when it when it first launched it was like oh this augmented reality is cool you know you can see them in the world but it's really impractical it's quite useless if you can put some glasses on and be walking around and actually see things in that in in your world that interact you know you know at least they don't clip through the ground and stuff like that if they make it sort of smooth i think that's gonna be like amazing and i don't like it's funny i don't think it's far off uh in that we get steps towards it being better and new implementations of it but i almost think that augmented reality could be harder to get to the final version of than virtual reality just because of once you start trying to make things integrate properly into the real world i feel like there's a lot more obstacles but you know that's not my speciality but yeah i'm excited for all of it but augmented reality is probably the one that i'm most excited for over virtual reality quickly tsg what's your take on virtual reality augmented reality ar these emerging technologies real fake awesome not really what do you think uh it's all fake no no it's it's all it's all real it's all it's awesome um again i won't take too much time i'll leave it to tonic because i know he he's got a lot to say uh for me i'm actually gonna pretty much follow exactly what vulcan said uh vr i still think actual integration that's why i wanna hear what nick says but my uneducated opinion on this i'll be straight is about again 10 to 15 years before we really see it in everyday life and people are really spending five six hours in virtual reality like that um the thing i'm more excited for is actually the the ar because i know like in previous interviews with zuckerberg just a few months ago um he's saying that they're working on the glasses and the glasses are looking coming out uh they're they're looking at within five years so i think once we get proper implementation of ar i think that's going to open us up for quite a while and and just the opportunities with ar i think that's going to be exciting and and that's going to be it's not going to be like we're not going to jump straight again for me it's always steps we're not going to jump straight from we we view the world with our eyes like visually so to put or virtual reality and kind of live there that's a big jump from from what our what's real to us but having or augmented reality glasses on that's a step right it's the same way that we first had our phone and then we decided to wear the apple watch we and then we're putting like the the earpods like we kind of had to take steps to to integrate it into our lives so it's the same way i think augmented reality glasses are gonna be the next step that's what i'm really looking forward to um and then virtual reality i think 10 to 15 years um before we really live in that space yeah nick educate us all right now you have four minutes you have four minutes to cover this topic then you guys need to shield your stuff but we got to end this broadcast nick go away 15 years ago there's there was no smartphone so just keep that in mind about how much you leverage these devices um they didn't even exist so look how far we've come then i would say if you look at what's happening in the ai space and artificial intelligence space as you start introducing swarms of ai software development will be done by swarms of ai or generally intelligent agents so human coders will only need to essentially upload their their technical skill and the history of their code and and their work and at that point like you already have ai writing movies uh you have ai uh doing a lot of really cool things that you would probably be quite haunted that they're doing so i'm long skynet and the reason is because you will start replacing more and more humans with clever software uh with artificially intelligent software as it moves to generally intelligent software if you don't do something so unique that you can't even explain it you will be replaced by intelligent software or swarms of ai agents whether it's deep neural nets uh you know something as simple as like swarms of chat bots that recreate your your kind of common colloquial you know speaking patterns and language and linguistics and things like that or whether it's something as talented as like software design or the legal system or anything you can think of that you can describe a robot will do it better 24 hours a day and it will never sleep and complain and have maternity leave and all these kind of things and and get mad and go walk out and whatever so the reality is that all of these problems that we have these are human problems and software solves human problems and software will solve software problems and ai's coming anyway like like modern said you know it's terrifying well look do you want it to be ushered in by the people at a weapons design company or people like at cardano and singularitynet that like that track like whale patterns in the water and like butterflies like do you want a kind benevolent i'll take butterflies over nukes with right do you want do you want like the kind of benevolent kind or like the kind that that zipped that terrorist on his porch the other day with a hellfire razor blade missile like who do you want to usher in ai because it's coming anyway so you're going to have to pony up with somebody because this is happening and so since it's happening it's not like well what if there's no that's that's over with there's no what if it is happening and since it's happening you might want to start i think it's probably important for people to do a little research and find out like who do you want to be in bed with you know like who do you want to usher in a kind benevolent hopefully abundant kind of artificial intelligence and general intelligence that makes humanity better and brings us closer together rather than you know t1 thousands of skynet either way i'm long skynet right like just to be safe i like it that needs to be a whole episode on the self andrew because you could go forever on that that's a good topic it's such a good topic that's why i wanted to bring up all these macro topics on this one we're going to have all three of you guys back you know what's interesting i was having drinks with grant one of our co-founders and he was telling me something very similar to what you were saying nick about ai and game development and production and in his mind if the if the ai technology uh evolves as quickly as we think it'll be the same thing for like people making like the elluvium universe and all of our assets and our alluvials and all the creative as the creative person you're just inputting your creative vision if you will into this ai interface and then the ai just literally go make goes and makes all the assets for you it does all the art it does like 90 of the job and then as the human you're like the 10 on the front end to provide the input or you're like the 5 on the front end to put give the input and then you're the 5 on the back end to make sure it's all put together correctly because the ai will be perfect at doing that but the 90 in the middle the ai did all that work for you and that is um that is it really opened up my mind to hear him talking about that in terms of game development i'm excited about that because that can mean more expansive game worlds in pot like the impossibly infinite game world that's not just procedurally generated but maybe is infinitely creative all these wild ideas we can't even imagine are possible because of that we have one minute left for you guys to shill your stuff vulcan what do you want to shill today my friend nothing dude i'm good if you want to find me you can find me search the name and you're good that's it tsg your shill yeah uh twitter tsg underscore underscore seven my youtube do your thing appreciate you having us on andrew you got it nick i know people can find you live all the time where can they find you live so we do shows every single day on mondaymorninglive.com and then uh yeah hit me up on the twitter spaces uh or or just the twitters in general nicholasblack60. that's it that was our first return episode of a louva talks video style you guys were fantastic panel i love this discussion we are definitely going to continue to do the show thank you for joining me every single week at this exact time in this exact place we'll be doing a luva talks with new guests i'll be getting these guys back on i'm long skynet as well and we'll see you