IlluviTalks #9 - Metaverse’s Destiny: Facebook’s Meta vs Decentralization

Is Mark Zuckerberg's vision for the future of the Metaverse or boon or bust for users? Does a “Metaverse” need to be a 3D immersive world for people to think of it as a proper Metaverse? Is there a metaverse where both centralization and decentralization coexist and are of equal adoption?

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ABOUT THE GAME
Illuvium is an exploration looter and collectible autobattler game built on the Ethereum Blockchain, releasing on PC and Mac in 2022. Play and earn in a graphically-rich, vividly-realized sci-fi adventure and conquer the wilderness to help your crash-landed colony flourish.

Race across stunning alien landscapes on your quest to uncover the cause of the cataclysm that shattered Illuvium. Hunt and capture Illuvials, powerful creatures who have ruled the land unchallenged until your arrival. Train and fuse your Illuvials into powerful evolutions. Build your ultimate Illuvial team to take into battles and tournaments in PvE and PvP Arenas. Use your creativity to build unique synergies to outsmart your opponents and progress to the top as become the most legendary Ranger on this planet.

Illuvium’s collectible NFT games feature crypto token assets with functionality and a gaming use case, interoperable across the Illuvium universe and the larger DeFi metaverse. The decentralized NFT collection offers players a user-maintained custody never before possible in mainstream gaming.

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Transcript

intro music here what's up everybody Andrew wall here host and executive producer at eluvium and today we've got a fascinating episode of the show as we lead the conversation about the future of gaming where I promise you're gonna gain you're gonna gain at least two new technology insights or your money back The Meta versus Destiny hangs in the balance right now Facebook's meta just drop their meta connect yesterday and it was mind-bending how far they are in developing their metaverse people in the crypto space are totally sleeping on this in my opinion we're going to talk about the virtues of decentralization versus centralization as the metaverse is being built talk about the viability of things like Facebook meta versus other metaverse plays out there sandbox Etc and a friendly reminder to everybody everything we talk about today has nothing to do with financial advice this is maybe a part of your research as you're researching different things in this space but you need to be a smart human being and realize we're not telling you to buy or sell anything this is a discussion show about our industry by a bunch of experts who really care including the largest crypto gaming influencer in Germany dominating the entire country I don't know Sandra what's up hi guys what's up Sandra's back by popular demand giving us a unique perspective he says his English is terrible I could disagree I can understand his English also on the show The King of mobile gaming with millions of followers somebody that I actually followed really closely as I was getting into Mobile gaming as an influencer and researching the mobile gaming industry now of course he's diving into the crypto gaming and nft gaming industry the household name of God's son what's up amigo hey what's up and yeah this is uh best time to get into mobile game right now especially with uh you know lubium zero and everything so this is the best thing that crossover of that sweet sweet web 3 and mobile gaming that's where it's at I agree Mobile gaming platforms continue to take off web 3 continues to take off why not be at the intersection of that but you already knew that you're literally doing that right now and we also have the go-to source for spreadsheet Warriors and the eluvium community the man with the numbers plan we're talking about scorioxin is does he still have it on yes look at this robe is that not hot right now [Laughter] it's so cold here yeah it's uh it's literally winter um did you know that there's different seasons on different parts of the planet everybody fascinating all right it's not even winter I think we're in spring right now oh you're in Spring I guess because we're in Fall so you're moving into spring I'm moving into fall anyway it was fun to it was fun to take a trip there all right guys we have so much to discuss and really quick so everybody is on the same page and they understand what happened at the keynote yesterday let's just do a quick review of the facts that were dropped at metaconnect so everybody can kind of understand where we're at in terms of centralized metaverse then let's talk about it here is the most likable man on the planet Mark Zuckerberg and he did a keynote yesterday obviously that's a joke uh he's not likable but his keynote speech uh showed that just like this man was Unstoppable at web 2 he is hell-bent on making meta the number one player in web 3 and in metaverse and I did a summary on Twitter kind of summarizing all the updates I'll give you the one minute tldr here guys and then we'll get into discussion you can look more into it later so basically here's a mind-bending fact for you quest their platform has done 1.5 billion dollars in Revenue centralized metaverse just on apps and games and they've sold over 15 million VR headsets those are like PlayStation and Xbox numbers they're headed toward right now pretty nuts also they just launched a ridiculously expensive meta Quest Pro VR headset that adds mixed rely reality and eye tracking focusing on work and gaming I bought this I'll see how good it is and I'll report back to all of you guys it's basically one of the most premium if not the most premium VR headset in the world now tons of exclusive games and apps Iron Man Among Us not not exclusive they have a non-vr version of quest so you can experience their metaverse on mobile PC and tablet on rectangles a new Walking Dead VR game and they've partnered with NBC Universal so now you have streaming at access and peacock on their platform but wait there's more they're positioning meta and their Hardware as being for work now Microsoft has partnered with meta because they have to because Microsoft is so far behind in the metaverse Microsoft teams office and 365 and Xbox cloud gaming are now on meta you can do all of that work stuff through your VR headset and through their platform they partnered with the largest employer in the world Accenture who has 150 000 of their staff staff on a virtual campus on Quest let me repeat that there is an employer in the world that has 150 000 human beings and they bought 30 000 Oculus headsets for their staff and they're currently working on a virtual campus in meta if you think this is a nothing Burger those are that's real it's crazy you think nobody's in there a lot of people think like in meta there's no users they've got 15 million people with these freaking headsets on and they've got Zoom that can now go through your stupid VR headset in this metaverse people are like I never use it I don't know now they've got products and experiences like AR glasses they've developed with Ray-Ban they dropped their first pair of Ray-Bans that are augmented reality and they've got a version 2.0 coming out and they've massively upgraded their Graphics across the board on everything and anyway a lot of people laugh at this kind of nonsense of Zuck looking ridiculous in his metaverse but they're making billions of dollars they have tens of millions of users they're partnering with the biggest Tech players in the world it's literally by far without question in every regard the most successful metaverse there is on planet Earth nobody even comes close that's not me being bullish or liking it I don't like them I don't like it but facts are facts that's the facts so let's talk about this because this is I think is it mind-blowing to people do they not care well they better start caring because this is starting to take over the metaverse space and we have to ask our first question is Mark Zuckerberg's vision for the future of the metaverse a boon or a bust for users does this sound like a living hell or does it sound like heaven to you Sandro yeah I think it's hard to answer right now because it's hard to imagine how the metaverse will look like in 10 years from now and I don't think that the decision from Mark Zuckerberg to change the name from Facebook to meta is like something what uh what we're gonna see in like two years I think um it will be a long it will take a long uh it will be a long trip since since we get a good view on the metabus what it is actually I I'm not really impressed by the Numbers uh not I can't I don't have the same enthusiasm the new Andrew uh because I know how big Facebook is and what their main business is and they sold a lot of Hardware okay I also have here this meta Quest 2 or something but uh it's not like how much how much dust has it collected yeah how thick is yeah I I really wanted uh to try it out myself and try like playing NVR game and something but for me um I think there are a lot of people who bought the hardware and not using it same with the PlayStation 5 and something yeah we all know uh know that so um it's hard for me to answer right now I I'm a big metaverse believer but for me metaverse means or has a different definite definition so for me it's like to owning things uh things um owning digital things like nfts this is my explanation for metaverse to own digital things in a digital world with multiple metaverse projects but got it if if I'm you know it's hard to to make a statement right now for me about meta so I I'm not really impressed but uh I love what they're doing because um I think the middle west will be big in the next years as a customer of matter you're not impressed right now and you think the numbers are lower than they should be given that Facebook has 3.5 billion users across all their platforms you're not impressed that they've sold 15 million what would be an impressive number then I'm curious to know like they just launched these headsets what would be an impressive number of sales um no it's not like I'm not impressed by the sales but I think it's more like a fomo bias you know like in crypto or something it doesn't mean anything if a Project's or skyrockets for a short time so I know there are a lot of VR headset buyers just for testing it it's not like we are all VR fans because we had a have a VR headset at home but I really want to test the meta The Meta Quest Pro because I have a problem with motion sickness this is my biggest problem with VR I want solution for motion sickness so you know I it's I don't see the daily user I want to see daily user in AAA projects and then we can talk about numbers revenue and stuff but right now nah I don't know you're not feeling it okay got it so let me thank you for sharing that I appreciate it uh so don't mistake my enthusiasm for liking it by the way it's just my job to like something as a contrary an opinion to everybody else okay so godson you watched the hardware transformation happen from PC and console to Mobile gaming and everybody laughed at mobile gaming they said nobody would play games on mobile phones they said mobile phone games I mean I'm telling you things you already know right these are fake you shouldn't support these kinds of games they're predatory they're terrible well well well here we are friends with a majority of Gaming revenue is on mobile now so I want to ask you about how important the hardware platforms are as it stands right now is owning like a hardware platform like the Oculus Quest series more important to control the future of the metaverse to drive the bus on where the mudiverse goes or is it more important to control the software side such as games layer ones layer twos productivity apps which side of the bus if you will Hardware versus software is more important for determining the future of something like a centralized metaverse I'd be curious to get your thoughts on that well actually I want to go back to the question that you posed uh before about the Facebook thing and do it uh there is like uh there's an adoption I just looked at the study it's a 170 adoption in crypto so there's a lot of people coming on board and Facebook is really smart to you know Rebrand and and bring in people through the metaverse I guess we can like Define that later but um yeah so I I'm hoping like you know Facebook pulls it off so if they're not if they're not against us then they're for us right so if they can bring in more people uh with adoption into crypto that's great uh with the question of the hardware of I believe that depends on the I believe that depends on the community what what people find more intriguing I feel that uh you know a lot of companies will will do the profit motive you know they'll just do their motive whatever brings in more profit rather than fun so if if we can create something and eluvium is great in doing this you know uh the idea of interoperability uh and a lot of things you know that they're working are really innovating stuff so uh if if they can bring in the community and the community feels that you know this is the the direction that we want to go over their you know Hardware over centralization then I feel that the community is basically the the uh the big Tech Will Follow

okay I like that but let me let me do a follow-up with you then so Apple controls the phones right Google controls the phones and so therefore they control the marketplaces that we interact with for software and they take a nasty disgusting thirty percent fee off of all of those transactions so arguably because they control the hardware and the operating system they have a strangle hold on the software I mean in the case of Apple's app store they literally approve whether a piece of software goes to most devices in the world or deny you from reaching the market so how is that not going to be the case in the future you know what I mean like whoever makes the AR platform and the VR platform and the mixed reality platform of the future don't they have the same level of control that Apple and Google currently have over reaching the billions of Gamers out there or is it different this time what are your thoughts on that uh yeah so I'll tell you something even more scary if you guys saw the news yesterday uh Google partnered with coinbase uh for their cloud service right so they're trying to bring more people into web 3 and they're using you know cryptocurrency their onboarding onboarding people with cryptocurrency and introducing them to the web 3 so yeah I'm afraid that you know the big Tech Google Apple or whatever they're gonna have a monopoly on everything which is you know what they do I think Google is a little more lenient with their their Google play but Apple app stores are pretty harsh so we can already see um you know today how they're blocking certain people or certain companies from getting onto their App Store and I'm worried about that so it really is just like the first movers Advantage if you know Dallas or whatever can get in there and and set the standard then I believe big Tech or these companies will have to follow their Direction cool I like your perspective yeah centralization on top of centralization with coinbase Plus Google obviously for all you Libertarians and decentralized people out there that's kind of scary so let me go to that question with scoriox here with the beautiful looking robe I know it's powering your answer is it truly a metaverse if it's hosted on centralized servers by Mecca Corps like if it's going to be hosted partially on Amazon and Google and apple and Facebook stuff is it metaverse at that point is that what we mean by metaverse or does it become something else at that point what are your thoughts on that is I guess what I'm trying to say is is the idea of metaverse tied to decentralization or can metaverse mean centralization as well what are your thoughts on that I think the big thing with the metaverse is getting people in there the the problem you have with a centralized platform is that there's forgot what I was going to say it's just there's I think it's still a metaverse right but the problem is the biggest issue with centralization in this aspect is actually privacy I don't think it's really how much how powerful it is or how many people are going to get on board and how many problems they might have I think I think privacy is the biggest concern here they may need to give up all of those privacy concerns to be a part of something that they might not have any choice being a part of like in that keynote the biggest thing I noticed was actually the collaborative workplace stuff that was crazy just being able to be in the same room as people that you work with and being able to do your work with them is especially crazy since since the pandemic or since that event in 2020 we've had this huge paradigm shift to working on your own terms and working from home and I didn't realize this to begin with but Facebook hasn't clocked into this whole gaming thing Facebook is CL clocked in to working from home and working on your own terms so giving up you people a lot of people already gave up their privacy going to Facebook and the ability for Facebook to now decide or matter to decide that you give up your privacy go into the metaverse is a bit scary but at the same time I think someone has to build it and you need someone with a lot of money that's that's just the fact that um you could build a metaversity set in a decentralized way but I'd argue it takes three times as long but maybe there is a path where you could have a centralized version to begin with and then decentralize afterwards like so that's that's definitely a path there I think a decentralized metaverse would be nicer but I definitely think they're both metaverses really that's crazy so I understand the decentralized would be nicer but help me understand that one the trend I've seen with technology from every technology there is from humans going from agrarian societies to cities to better transport an electricity systems consolidating people in one location on one grid and one system to the internet consolidating print media consolidating social media consolidating everything consolidates into governments countries tribes like humans consolidate things that's what we do the more powerful entity gloms together in a central lot like we centralize naturally across everything so how is it that the metaverse could be centralized at first and then decentralize after that wouldn't that be a counter to literally every other example of Technology ever I don't know maybe maybe I'm thinking more of like a hybrid where but I I'm feeling that it starts off centralized to get things just built and done but um monopolization does breed competition where people want to step in and try and take some of that market share whether they're successful or not is anyone's guess but even I see crypto in a similar light right so you had Financial systems and things and people have started to agree that the centralization in them doesn't quite work and it has definitely sped up the process of people trying to create decentralized currency that's kind of what I what I'm thinking about here but I definitely think a hybrid I definitely think a hybrid system is a lot more likely um but if you could say it would be the first example if Bitcoin truly does decentralized Financial infrastructure got it so okay yeah so maybe this would be an example metaverse that we start with and we go we don't like that for all of the centralization reasons then we go decentralized after that as a counter movement uh to improve upon the things that are inherently bad about it I can see that okay before we go into our next topic I have to remind everybody there's an audio version of a louva talks it's on every platform so if you like listening to audio podcasts on Apple podcast Spotify Google every freaking platform just search for alluvium subscribe there and there's a edited kind of clean version of these podcasts of louvatox and eluvium Insider that you can listen to in fact right after this episode I'm gonna upload four edited episodes right after this and it's going to drop on every platform so listen to the audio version if you're on the car on the go and you want a cleaner ums and Oz cut out version cool let's move into our next top pick the thing everybody's watching this actually likes which is a decentralized metaverse vision so let's talk about what that looks like and maybe some of the attempts that are out there at making something like this happen and so that would of course include things like eluvium of course decentralization with its own exchange and with uh with its own Marketplace its own games its own token and its decentralized in terms of governance this is arguably the most premium game in this space as an example then we can look at existing meta versus quote unquote out there that exist right now that are going for more of the 3D immersive world and space type of concept and uh sandbox is one of the leading examples of that and as you can see tons of brands have jumped on board tons of money have been pumped in these ecosystems and there has been some adoption and some notoriety so you can argue this is one of the leading if not the leading 3D immersive version of a metaverse so we've had an example of a game an example love the 3D immersive and then we've also seen attempts to make let's say metaverse web3 Hardware happen with something like the Solana mobile phone which attempts to bring crypto to your phone nfts to your phone dudes holding phones on stages Etc and it's attempting to do a sort of more decentralized if you will Hardware play in this space so it's not like people in the decentralized space that we're operating in have been sleeping on all of this there are attempts on the 3D immersive World on the gaming and on the hardware side to make progress so let's talk about that is the decentralized vision for the metaverse a boon or a bust for users and let's talk about like is there a better Vision than what eluviums bring into the table sandbox is bringing to the table Solana is bringing to the table and is there any Merit to what Facebook is doing that we should be taking into account for the decentralized side I'd like to bring that to godson first yeah so like as I mentioned before I think it depends on the adoption like uh the direction that the community goes I I really appreciate that you know they're making a lot of innovation and and devices for people to get into I think the first time that I was introduced into the metaverse I saw like uh I don't know if anyone else saw this commercial but it was the The Meta commercial where they had the uh Breakfast Club uh song with the parody of the Chuck E cheese character and I teared up when I saw that and then I read the comments and everyone accused Mark Zuckerberg putting putting them inside the Matrix so I understand there's a stigma behind the metaverse you know the the metaverse look I'll play devil's advocate here the the metaverse like just the definition of it is uh uh is an online Lobby we just you just have to have a representation of yourself digitally so I think alluvium is doing more Innovative things by making it uh uh interoperable like they're making a universe where their games are connecting to to each other rather than just a game Lobby where everyone meets up so you guys might hate me on that but that's I've just listened to the critics and there's lots of critics that are outside of crypto whether it's you know critics of nfts or metaverses so I think Innovation is the key here so again like I I mentioned it just depends on the adoption and where things go from there that makes sense to me and I I tweeted this recently I'd be curious to know if this is what you mean but uh I put this no one liked aimlessly wandering around 3D worlds and web 2. so why do all these metaverses think people will want to do this in web 3. and so a lot of the metaverse plays are we've got to have a 3D immersive World we've got to have a 3D space we've gotta get people together with an avatar and I'm wondering like how come nobody like that before why are they gonna like that now and I know that Facebook is doubling down on that idea with these workspaces with Horizon worlds and with their immersive experiences but all of the examples I can think of from web 2 and web one of 3D immersive world failed for the most part now there are some examples like Minecraft and Roblox where you have a shared world but the reason why those shared worlds succeeded is because it was a game and there was something interesting to do and it was highly engaging for the game reason but most of the metaverse plays I'm seeing are uh by land then come to the land and then you figure it out so yeah I don't know do you feel like that's a failed model do you need to have something compelling for people to do once they arrive or is it build them and then they'll come in six question mark question mark question mark profit what are your thoughts on that yeah so I mean what what they've done what what the augments and with the vrs and everything that's this is not the first time we've we've been introduced into these you know these Hardware products uh the first time I've ever seen it was when Nintendo did it with Virtual Boy so there's there's technology there of course that's Innovative um but you know it it really just depends on the the the community um I would hope I would hope that that this is the thing I would hope that we get something more in line to like how Ready Player one did it like if you just ever watch that movie it seems like there's a lot of gaming products or a lot of gaming uh entities that are converging into a metaverse I would hope something like that I'm not sure how that's going to work but that would be something awesome that I feel could you could uh bring a lot of people into the adoption of crypto so those are just my thoughts but you know I just think that you know that that could be a potential possibility makes sense so everybody always thinks that ready player one that uh 3D immersive World experience for a proper metaverse so scoriox is that 3D immersive World required for it to be a proper metaverse is that a baseline requirement because everybody's loved Ready Player one so I guess this movie set the standard for what metaverse is now right do you agree or disagree with that I think I think we we've always had a serious cost problem when it comes to VR headsets and things like that that is that is the number one concern where people are like oh I can't get it it's expensive and now some of them are on par with consoles consoles seem to come up in price and meet them which was really interesting but but it's still a lot for most people I I don't think I think a majority of the population can't afford to really get a VR headset or anything so how is the metaverse going to be built on VR you know what I mean but but everyone can afford a mobile phone because they need it for so much other things but if VR becomes this thing that you need for everything in your daily life then I think that could be possible but I don't I definitely don't think it's necessary I think Hmm what are your thoughts let me pause you there so VR so what Facebook's doing and a lot of the other players are doing is not only is it VR but now the most premium headsets are now mixed reality so you get real life plus the VR then that Tech is going to be put into the glasses you can wear on real life AR so do you think that glasses like Ray-Ban glasses let's say version 10 could replace the mobile phone in that it does all that other crap you need it to do plus it does gaming do you think that that's a possibility in the future I still think you will need your mobile phone as well so no I don't see that as a future why I say that is because you can't fit all your uis and things into a Ray-Bans maybe you can touch screens and stuff in front of you but I don't think many are going to be a big fan of that as I don't think that's going to be intuitive for most people that's what I'm saying I think the mobile phone works really well because it's small compact you can hold it in your pocket and stuff so it's out of the way and then when you need to take it out it's really intuitive and really easy to do whatever you need to do install all your apps do all that sort of stuff set everything up I don't think that's going to be so so simple when something on your head I think a combination of the two connecting to each other is going to make that a lot simpler but until uh but given that I expect that to be the case Ray-Bans and the phone is going to be a cost that is potentially way above many people's um risk tolerance in terms of they they have a lot of other things they need to spend their money on um yeah just putting it that simply I like that perspective but I will remind you that the argument you're making about people have the existing thing today why would they use the thing in the future is what people said about phone booths and beepers and that classic clip with Bill Gates and uh David Letterman where Bill Gates says in the future you'll be able to listen to a replay of a baseball game on your computer and Dave Letterman looks at the audience and goes yeah but isn't that what a tape recorder is for ha ha ha ha ha ha laughed everyone so anyway I I I definitely think that the Ray-Bans and mixed reality and everything is going to take off in that way but I just think it's a lot further away than you think to actually adopt people into that I think it's a lot further away or it's going to look a bit different to the way we're seeing it right now to make it more intuitive for people I definitely think it's going to happen eventually but I think it's so unintuitive that it's going to take longer than you might expect that's fair Sandro I gotta know what you think then will the metaverse ever be truly decentralized if it needs to be experienced on things like Mass manufactured Hardware platforms and devices so the software side and the financial side can be more decentralized but we got to play it on mass manufactured gear that you know uh made in China by a megacorp made in China by a megacorp made in China by a megacorp everything in my studio is made in China by a mega Corp so if I have to do the use the metaverse on all of this is it decentralized when literally everything I'm using is made in China by a megacorp what are your thoughts on that yeah I think uh decentralization is wishful thinking I don't want to be a boomer but uh I remember when I started with crypto I was a big fan of decentral decentralization and blockchain but at the end everything is centralized everything because every project um have to follow rules from every government you know so I I I didn't use the word decentralized uh metaverse anymore I believe in Dao's like eluvium but for me every meta metaverse will be centralized for sure so decentralization isn't a point for me I'm gonna totally agree with you I think it because because there will be no metaverse where the government would say now it's forbidden to be in this place and there there isn't a way to shut it down because at the end also every game um I'm not sure like if every web three gaming game studio will run an own uh node network but I think most games will also be hosted on classical web 2 servers

elements but those element-like governance and like the token and I'm like ownership but we gotta be we got to be on servers to host the game right we're on social media centralized platforms right now for communications you know blah blah blah and we also we also saw uh some days ago with the big uh BSC Bridge heck like what was it 500 or 600 million got hacked in a bridge exploit on the BSC chain and the good part was or is that the that binance is centralized and they were able to uh shut down the chain so I don't think that decentralization is necessary for a good metaverse but I'm a huge fan of uh Dao's because that's why I started investing investing in eluvium one year ago and bought land and everything and dollar cost everything like every week and um getting this juicy Irv tokens but I I don't believe that decentralization is a big point I think this is which wish wishful thinking because you also also can get your usdc usdt Frozen with like only uh a second if you we saw it with a tornado a tornado cash like every wallet which interacted with the tornado cash wasn't able to send the the stable coins anymore more so I think different decentralization is is Wishful uh thinking so um I'm with you when we when we talk about like um the marketplaces and microtransactions and meta at the moment um got the biggest market share and stuff but um this is only the revenue side so um it's also web 2 we have the big players in the online marketplaces like Amazon eBay they are also only going for this transactions on them on their marketplaces so that's why they get in getting the the money so the big Tech and big companies are going for the the micro transactions for sure but um I think those are a good thing and that uh economy will be by the community and I think this will be the future of gaming but it's hard for me to say right or to talk about uh Hardware adoption right now because I I don't get I don't get Mark Zuckerberg for like um getting her companies to work in the metaverse I I see some use cases where where I think okay this is good but I don't see like my mother is working in an office and I don't see her with with the VR glasses on I don't see the case because when she's working from home they have like this Zoom meetings why should they the meet up in the metaverse and why should she buy some clothes I I I I don't see the adoption there because we have this great technology with computers and everything is amazing you know yeah so I I don't I think the biggest uh the game changer will be like uh the the VR headsets when there isn't motion sickness anymore when you put the glasses on and you don't want to to take them off like like back then I don't know who have you played World of Warcraft but I was addicted for like 15 years everyone yeah I only wanted to play [ __ ] wow every every single moment of my life you know so school was out and I was running home and I want to get on my computer and start playing wow and I I identified with my characters you know so and we need this feeling for for the for the hardware for the VR parts and stuff so I think it's very hard to to talk right now about Mass adoption because I think the normal user right now it's more like no I got my computer and this is fine and it's much much better than the VR headset and um this would this would also be a one question maybe for you Andrew what do you think if you have to choose one device okay to take the computer or would you take the VR headset what about yeah so right now the computer right now the computer is better right now okay just like in if I just like if I was a 1990s guy and we were going into the transition into web 1 and web 2 and you asked me would you rather have a phone booth available for you on every quarter to Corner to make a call with for 25 cents or would you rather have this monster cell phone that's like 70 pounds and costs six thousand dollars you'd be like which one would you rather make a phone call on okay I'd say the phone booth obviously but it's because we were so early in that technology eventually it became a little rectangle I can carry around and is literally can give me the knowledge of the entire human race Forever on a device right so the point of that is the function of the phone to what the phone became decades later is unbelievable and so for me asking would I rather use a VR headset today versus a normal computer the answer is of course I don't want to use the seven thousand dollar seventy pound cell phone but I know that that cell phone is going to replace my normal computer in the future like that seems pretty much guaranteed in my opinion so so today I'm willing to test out the 70 pound cell phone just to understand the technology knowing that it is going to dematerialize everything in my studio I think 10 years from now I won't need any of this equipment that I have here and I can literally throw it in the garbage I think I'll just be able to put on a VR headset I'll have five screens in front of me I can go whoop whoop whoop I won't need a microphone or head separate headphones I'll just Boop I'll put on a fifteen hundred dollar headset and it will literally do everything we all need gear for in our Studios right now in one device similar to how this device right here replaced dematerialized everything from beepers to uh to Big cell phones to phone booths to books to maps to everything right so this dematerialized all those things VR headsets are going to dematerialize all these things that I have in front of me and but today these things are better 10 years from now the VR headsets probably Superior that's my yeah we are on the same site that's what I said in the beginning from our conversation so I also think like in 10 years this this is going to be much more interesting than it is right now but we're talking about adoption and I don't think we can talk right now about about adoption because also computers improves it's not like uh PCS stopped getting better so also in five years there will also be much better PCS and classical devices so maybe you're right so basically Sandro hates defy and loves centralization that's what we can conclude I got to move next topic I know I'm messing with let me finish wait wait what but what do you think about gaming so it's not like I'm a big fan of centralization I'm just I'm just saying it's very hard right now so do you think uh Dao like eluvium a game like eluvium can change the gaming industry in the next three years yes so the the game the gaming and that's actually our next topic of debate I'm gonna go to that who's gonna win centralization versus decentralization and I want to go into that topic But first you mentioned how centralization is better we already know that's your position but I disagree because it is my job to play this video about our decentralized Marketplace a luvidex V2 a check it out

eluvium game studio is developing a game that combines an exploration looter with a collectible Auto battler where Gamers can play and own Rewards we are excited to introduce version two of the louvadex our official eluvium market exchange it features intuitive Analytics enhanced navigation improved maps and additional functionality [Music] that man the voiceover on that video so good so the question you brought up a moment ago which leads us to our next part about centralization versus decentralization can something like alluvium actually make an impact can a decentralized game Studio actually make an impact and change the gaming industry moving forward in order to answer this question I want to just set the stage here with some facts I like to go facts and I like to teach people things with facts before we all share our opinions and so the fact of the matter is right now in terms of market adoption the top game and this the The Source here is DAP radar and I went ahead and searched by uh you know active users and what have you on each of these games and the top games out there and long story short in the past 24 hours if we want to look at daily active users the top games in defy right now have a maximum of two hundred thousand to one hundred thousand users per day tens of thousands moving up to like a hundred thousand Peak within the last 24 hours looking at games like alien worlds you know the top title Splinter lands Etc right and they have varying amounts of users that are coming in the reason why I'm sharing that is to compare that to the peak player base on the top games in web 2. and if you look at ROBLOX their Peak users was things like 4 million Crossfire 8 million this is this year by the way League of Legends 8 million this is concurrent players fortnite 12 million so right now the decentralized gaming space is so far away from the centralized gaming space in terms of adoption decentralized gaming needs like a 50x in order to catch up even with just one game so that's how far away we are from being able to change the gaming industry and the reason why I'm bringing that up is if you don't have the players if you don't have the adoption then no matter how good your idea is you're not actually changing the industry you need to change where the attention is you need to change where the users are and you need to change where the revenue is Flowing then your ideas actually succeed so in my opinion and I've said this a bunch of times and I'll share this with you um is I think that we need a new change to the business model of gaming and we're attempting to do that at alluvium with the interoperable blockchain game just like we saw with free to play just like we saw with mobile games just like we saw with subscription model and battle pass and the games I literally just showed you on the screen these games fortnite got huge because of the new battle pass model it implemented and it was at the right place at the right time with the right genre League of Legends became gigantic because it had the free to play business model right place right time Roblox uh et cetera et cetera all of these games came in with a new game genre and a new business model and they changed their micro transactions with Counter-Strike GO Etc all the major games have the same pattern new hardware shift new culture shift new technology plus new business model equals Mega success so can alluvium be that maybe eluvium is the only one I'm seeing in decentralized gaming that's even attempting to do something truly Innovative on both the business model side and the game side with interoperable blockchain games and with Concepts like Revenue distribution Fair launch Etc that's at least a different idea than what other people are doing in D5 most game studios in defy are literally just copy pasting some business model or some idea from web 2 and saying that on the blockchain they're not actually doing anything new and Innovative from a gaming design standpoint and a business model standpoint so will alluvium be that Big League of Legends success or World of Warcraft success it at least is attempting to do the formula that creates a big success whereas no other players I've seen out there have even tried or are even have even announced that they will be trying in the future to follow that formula game design Innovation plus new business model so that's the best answer I can give you to that question so can decentralized games catch up with centralized games in terms of player counts when we're 50x behind scoriox you're the spreadsheet guy do these numbers add up um yeah I definitely think I can catch up I think as you as you already said it just needs to be a compelling game and doing something new definitely makes a big difference you could see that in all those previous games you talked about fortnite and the new business model but the other thing they implemented was a lot of the building and construction which which Minecraft and Roblox could kind of cornered but Battle Royale was a trending topic and so they can't combine the two and they managed to attract a really large audience so I think I think Innovation is key here I think alluvium's touched onto a few genres that are in a bit of a need of a facelift to put it simply um Pokemon has obviously lost touch with some of their their OG or their their older fans and auto Battlers have lost touch a little bit with the competitive side and I think alluvium is capturing both of them really well and they're adding a lot of innovation on top of that and I just I do I think you're right I think Innovation is the key here if you make something truly new and that it's compelling when people start to play it then it has the ability to grow to those levels in terms of people being afraid of blockchain I think we might have to wait a while for it to grow to those levels but if if blockchain in itself or crypto in itself became more normalized over the next five to ten years that I don't see why games implementing blockchain couldn't get to these same numbers if not higher okay got it well that leads me to my next question then so the biggest gaming franchise is that I just showed on the screen imagine a world and I'm gonna kick this over to you godson imagine a world where Apex Legends comes over to web3 dropping nfts on people pubg Combs over to nft who comes over to web3 I don't know there's a pub G token Dota 2 comes over to web3 you can finally own your skins in your digital wallet Counter-Strike GO Lost Ark Minecraft Roblox all these big titles all these big studios they just start piling into web3 wow how amazing is that so when the biggest gaming franchises migrate to web3 will they choose a decentralized model or and decentralized platform or they will they choose a centralized platform when they come on over what are your thoughts on that godsend yeah so um I think this just goes back to my point of just doing what the community standards are like whatever the the direction that the community goes uh is pretty much just wasn't going to set the standard now alluvium actually has the first movers advantage of this like where they can set the standards and they can Pioneer a lot of stuff that uh perhaps other gaming Industries will adapt and I've seen this multiple times with um with Clash of Clans the the game I predominantly play a lot of models that you see today are adapting their structure of what they've created and I'm hoping that they'll do that with eluvium uh but you know the thing with um the thing with the market right now or with gaming in general is is just a quality over quantity aspect I feel that a lot of games that don't have that quality uh aspect in them it's just like I don't know I was just looking at I was looking at ads today and when you're browsing YouTube or when you're browsing you know ads you'll see a game that pops up that's kind of clickbaity kind of catchy and then when you play the game there's actually a game within a game you know that's more of what they intended you to play but they're just trying to bring you in uh with their their initial looking game that they have so it's just weird you're talking about with mobile games in particular a lot of the ads they'll show you will be like this amazing 3D looking thing and then you play the game and it's like some dog [ __ ] 2D game is that what you're referring to yeah yeah yeah but you know the thing about about the the stats that you gave there is like if you look at um if you look at actually Affinity I think they have a billion dollar market cap not sure how many people they have playing on a daily basis but uh you know I I consider actually Infinity like a lower quality game like it's it's cool it looks cool it looks cool but it's not really in depth um so I've heard talks of GTA we can we can take pull I like facts I like to do facts on the show so axi Infinity according to DAP radar in the past 24 hours had 20 000 users interacting with it on the blockchain and then if we're gonna give it a 30-day number um which it's populating right now axi Infinity had 200 226 000 people interacting with it on the blockchain over the past 30 days so according to this there's a game with a close two billion dollar market cap that only has 226 000 monthly active users yeah so look this is this is the thing like the D6 I gave earlier about uh the adoption into crypto they there's a over I believe I believe over a year or two it's about 170 percent of people coming in uh to crypto so my hope is that with enough saturation of these you know these these Protocols of a new coin or you know a V launch pad or something it'll be over saturated so that we're gonna have to move into what's next big thing it's going to be gaming this is what I'm hoping like I hope that everyone's gonna jump onto GameFly and to gaming and crypto that's going to be the next thing that everyone's trying to build their own game and that's you know the direction so there will be even more mass adoption coming in through crypto so like I said you know with with big companies like GTA trying to get into I believe is what I read They're getting into the the metaverse or it's in crypto I can see them helping along with the adoption of crypto Captain centralization over here Sandro what are your thoughts on this topic when the big game franchises come in you're saying I want them to be centralized so badly do you think people do what you want Sandro and be centralized don't be so mean to me man no it's fun for me to do this because I'm the one because I tell people about what's happening in meta everybody thinks I'm like a meta Bull and I like I think Zuckerberg is my best friend anyway but the question stands though will these Legacy gaming players when they eventually come in are they gonna go like want to be on like a meta plant like platform whether it's meta or not or they're gonna say you know what we're going to be defy all the way baby we now believe in the virtues of decentralization even though we're completely centralized and suddenly we're totally different what are your thoughts on that I don't think that it really matters to a gamer so if we are talking about how to adopt the web 2 Gamers the normal gamer I don't think the gamer gives a [ __ ] about decentralization or centralization so if eluvium only got one Marketplace it's cool if it got like five different marketplaces where you can sell and buy the nfts it's also okay but at the end if you want to adopt the the millions of players and it should feel like a normal game like a normal download browser or epic game store listing and it should be easy to buy something it it's I think this that's why I love eluvium so much at the moment you know I also love it because it's it's there's no I'm talking about a lot of gaming projects it's not like I'm only invested in investing in eluvium but what you guys are doing is completely different from any other gaming project a project out there so if I think what you really need for the next big step is a game uh a game where everyone wants to play it without an earning Factor like if some gamer just is uh he is on Twitch and see oh what's that eluvium stream I never heard about it and he sees it and and feels like hey I want to play it and this is the big next step into adoption because right now there is no single game a normal gamer would play because if you go to your nine to five job is finished you go home and want to play something with your friends um why should you play x infinity please give me give me three reasons why a normal gamer would play actually Infinity right now I mean there's other other than I mean there are three reasons would be make money make money make money yeah all make money Players I've talked to have told me the reason why they got into it and they made a guild yeah they won't say that publicly they won't say it publicly because they want to be a part of the community or whatever but they told me they just got into it to make money they hired people and to be a part of their Guild and they took on investors to make money and now and then when the game gets into a phase where you can't make money they tell me honestly this is why I'm on a call with you right now Andrew is because I hate that game and I want to play a game that's fun so that's the reason people who are actually hardcores have told me they were hardcore I haven't seen anyone that says you know what I just love the gameplay God guys I just love it I've never seen anyone say that maybe there are people out there that have said that but I haven't seen one no but they're much better web 2 games why should you play them it's same with if you now build a fortnite with your team and is it's just a copy from fortnite with nfts why should someone play it we have fortnite

building some different stuff and I think once we get the complete feeling like hey we are in a oh in an over world we have nothing we have some shards maybe in our bags from eluvium zero and let's go we're gonna capture get this uh eluvials and then we catch our first eluvian and then we get our next one and next one the next one and Kieran is talking about it will take like months to get every single illuvial out there and I think once people understand that when you catch an alluvial that you can use this nft also in a different game because illuvium won't stop once we have the Overworld and aluminum zero let's see where where eluvium could be in five years and this is this is my my personal opinions not like uh you know I'm a fanboy since I since the first second I hit about eluvium and now I'm one year into crypto I got a much better understanding from about tokenomics nfts and if you look at the market cap from the metaverse projects right now it's totally [ __ ] it makes no sense it makes no sense that a decentraland a Sandbox and actually Infinity are sitting on one to two billion market cap right now it it makes it makes no sense if you see what some game studios are building a building right now so it's I think the part with Innovation was a very good point from you guys and um eluvium at the moment I think is is the only web 3 gaming project with something new because every other project there is an existing web 2 game out there and if just just listen to Kieran and the the the attitude you you will see and in here it there's a bigger vision and that's why yeah you should take a closer look to the eluvium ecosystem people watching on eluvium's Twitter right now probably agree with you final question scoriox this one's for you is there a world where both metaverse centralization and decentralization coexist in there of equal size and you say you know what let's just get along we're we're Bros right you don't like governments or centralized money or publicly traded companies on the decentralized side we on the centralized side love centralization control you know what we're of equal size and we're just going to all get along and it's going to be great do you see that being realistic I think I do I definitely see One Vision in particular I think the big thing that in decentralization is speed sorry there's two

you need a minute yeah it's okay

geez let's give this man a minute so the reason why I ask this is in the past the point we made earlier is that centralization usually wins out over the longer term maybe there's a turning point right now with technology because blockchain and hashing allow for trustless interactions on the internet and maybe that technological shift makes D fine and makes decentralization technologically possible and it's a turning point for Humanity possibly because of this technology maybe so let's go back to scoriox what are your thoughts on that is there a world where decentralization and centralization in the metaverse exist we're all getting along we're all we're baby we're all interoperable I mean this is what Zuck said on his keynote he's like I'm all about he said I'm all about interoperability come on come on in I'll only take 50 oh my gosh so what do you think Buddy I I definitely I definitely see decentralization's biggest strength is in speed and building unique things separately right if you have one major creative leader a handful of them at the head of a large company then there's really only so much you can do because you have one person's brain and one person's Vision working on it sure you might have other people that can put their input and things like that but I've been in a company long enough to know that that's not always super super reliable in comparison to hundreds or if not thousands of different gaming companies all building their own thing and I definitely think that that's going to help diversify the genres and games that get involved and I think we are going to look at a bit like a Google Play Store kind of scenario in the future where you have your big centralized company that is able to amass a large vision and onboard everyone into a centralized Hub and then they're going to use that Hub to diversify into different uh worlds and platforms and companies and things like that the only issue there is that they're going to take a cut maybe five to ten percent hopefully not higher than that in if you want to go through their Hub to get to alluvium it's going to cost you it's going to cost alluvium a little bit to do that but aluvium itself is decentralized so I'm hoping that that's the hybrid we see and I think decentralization allows us to build lots of different things lots of unique things and without that centralization I don't think will survive in this space in particular because attention spans are declining over time and unless you can broaden broaden the scope of what people are building it's just gonna fall apart I like that idea uh personally I'm open to that but I'm not the big decision maker so basically the idea here is maybe you've got the platforms of the future the metas the app stores of the future the steams of the future they all take a toll booth cut of your Revenue but in this case you're basically saying those marketplaces kind of just act as a portal for users to be funneled through they take their toll booth fee and then those users in the case of eluvian would just be interacting with our defy infrastructure at after that personally I'm open to that sort of business opportunity for alluvium if it drives Millions tens of millions hundreds of millions of new users into eluvium's ecosystem that sounds really good to me really quick I want to ask Sandro and godsend is that a scary Prospect to you are you feeling like a purist here and you wouldn't want Zuck to dig his or Bezos to dig their greedy hands into the pot here with eluvium or would you be open to that in exchange for users coming in godsend what's your thoughts yeah like like I mentioned in the beginning like if if they're not against us or if they're for us I I like the idea of adoption coming in through you know these layer ones or these these big tech companies I just hope that um the innovators inside crypto can pull those people away from these uh these companies you know because like you know what the platforms we have right now with Twitter and YouTube and everything they're great but you know that's where the Innovation comes in with crypto and I feel like a lot of the innovators are in this crypto space so it is scary and I hope that you know we could transition away from that but I it is kind of inevitable for them to come in and they have a lot of marketing and they have you know the weight behind what they're doing like you said on your Tweet about uh Facebook getting all of this uh profit and adoption because of you know them starting with the VR I I think they they have the the momentum to do that I'm just hoping that uh they'll wise up and we'll just move away from the centralization final word on this Sandro would you be willing to give let's say the standard cut if you were the Galactic vice president of eluvium and you could unilaterally make decisions and it was possible to have alluvium on every gaming web 2 platform but they took 30 percent of all proceeds before it comes that's the standard fee right now that's not a that's not a Savage fee that's the standard fee 30 Med is asking for 50 by the way but let's say they backed it down to 30. would you say yes to that deal what's your if you were the galactic vice president of eluvium which doesn't exist at the moment no because I I think the path eluvium is going right now is it's perfect it's just the timeline which sucks at the moment to be honest like the token vesting and that the game isn't released yet this is the only problem I see right now and I love the idea from Dao's like like immutable X and eluvium I'm a big fan of of Dao's but uh at the moment I think we don't have to worry about it because it was was there one bad news about metaverse and blockchain from a web 2 company we see Meta working with polygon and so does Sony Disney so every company who's working on their metaverse got blockchain Partnerships so I think at the moment we are not enemies and if it if it would be very good for the eluvium ecosystem to to cut the 30 percent from the revenue I would do it but I I I don't think that that's the point right now because Sandra Sandro if he asked if he were the galactic vice president would say no to a toll booth taking 30 of uh alluvians not yet maybe in the future who knows he'll let you know when he runs for that position which does not currently exist let's go into shout outs now I have in the description on YouTube and on the podcast version links to all of these gentlemen and their YouTube channels in particular godson where should people go to check out more of your Genius thoughts and why should they go there uh so you can check me out on lumenomics I'm on YouTube I am starting my twitch Channel but uh primarily I'm on YouTube doing illuminomics so I'm teaching uh coaching there uh I do the you know news of all the leaks that are coming out so I just try to stay up to date with everything so if you guys want to come over and follow me that's uh godsonics or godson ilv on Twitter subscribe right now if you're not you are centralized scum scoriox where can people find you and why should they watch um scary Oaks on YouTube I look at the token I look at the tokenomics and things a lot I actually released a video recently and called the ilv bottom I didn't realize the token pump today which was really funny uh but no Financial advice I talk a lot about the tokenomics and things and try and break down all the numbers how many people I think you're going to be playing and all the rest of it so if you're interested in that side of things definitely go and check it out awesome scoria exception right there Sandro yeah where can people find you and why should they watch I mean you say my English is so terrible I understood every English word you said today you didn't slip into any other languages so where can people find you if they want to follow thank you so much thank you so much yeah I only create German content so if you understand German you can follow me on Twitch and YouTube but to be honest I love to be on on the show with you Andrew it feels like to talking to normal people you know because you can't you're the weirdos yeah but it feels so normal to talk about these things you know and I love to be here and let's keep it going awesome so everybody you can check out the other episodes of olufa talks and also uh that feature Sandro also Sandra does do English interviews with eluvium um people like me and Karen and what have you and that his English content does exist there and he's a great interviewer gentlemen thank you so much for joining me on this episode and thank you all so much for watching I told you at the beginning of the episode that I guaranteed you'd have at least two new technology insights from this episode if you didn't learn two new things you're lying seriously you know you did thank you for watching I appreciate it and I'll see you next week on the next episode of aluvatox with even more unbelievably expert and centralized gaming loving guests see you then