Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 34
When Victoria Lebrón (she/her) and Gab Sussman (they/she) left the traditional classroom behind, they embarked on a quest to transform educational spaces into havens of inclusivity. This episode pulls back the curtain on the realities of teaching while embracing queer and non-binary identities, with Victoria and Gab recounting the trials and victories they've encountered along the way. From their own days as students in less-than-accepting environments to the creation of a graphic novel club that's a hit with Baltimore's youth, their stories resonate with anyone who's ever felt different.
Imagine a classroom where every child feels seen and supported, regardless of their background. That's the vision we traverse in this heartfelt discussion, which also tackles the gritty challenges of teacher retention and the quest for a truly inclusive educational system. We confront the stark disparities faced by Black, queer, and disabled educators and dissect the lip service often paid to teacher appreciation. Victoria and Gab's raw narratives and our collective reflections on these issues make a compelling case for systemic overhaul in education.
We wrap up our journey with a celebration of the power of representation, particularly within the pages of graphic novels. As we share our admiration for the medium's ability to mirror the diverse spectrums of identity, Victoria and Gab shed light on their initiative, Bmore Transform, and its mission to offer educators liberating alternatives to the status quo. This episode isn't just a call to action—it's an affirmation of the vibrant potential of a caring, accountable educational community that amplifies all voices. Join us as we unpack these pressing topics, and perhaps, find a bit of your own story reflected in the conversation.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 34
When Victoria Lebrón (she/her) and Gab Sussman (they/she) left the traditional classroom behind, they embarked on a quest to transform educational spaces into havens of inclusivity. This episode pulls back the curtain on the realities of teaching while embracing queer and non-binary identities, with Victoria and Gab recounting the trials and victories they've encountered along the way. From their own days as students in less-than-accepting environments to the creation of a graphic novel club that's a hit with Baltimore's youth, their stories resonate with anyone who's ever felt different.
Imagine a classroom where every child feels seen and supported, regardless of their background. That's the vision we traverse in this heartfelt discussion, which also tackles the gritty challenges of teacher retention and the quest for a truly inclusive educational system. We confront the stark disparities faced by Black, queer, and disabled educators and dissect the lip service often paid to teacher appreciation. Victoria and Gab's raw narratives and our collective reflections on these issues make a compelling case for systemic overhaul in education.
We wrap up our journey with a celebration of the power of representation, particularly within the pages of graphic novels. As we share our admiration for the medium's ability to mirror the diverse spectrums of identity, Victoria and Gab shed light on their initiative, Bmore Transform, and its mission to offer educators liberating alternatives to the status quo. This episode isn't just a call to action—it's an affirmation of the vibrant potential of a caring, accountable educational community that amplifies all voices. Join us as we unpack these pressing topics, and perhaps, find a bit of your own story reflected in the conversation.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton, my pronouns are he/ they, and I'm excited to have a double interview today. I have Victoria Lebrón and Gab Sussman with me. Hi, how are you two doing?
Bryan (he/they):Hello Great so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you here. Do you mind taking a second and introducing yourself to our listeners?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Of course, sure, I'm Victoria Lebron. I use she/ her pronouns.
Gab Sussman (they/she):And I'm Gab Sussman. I use they/she
Bryan (he/they):Awesome, and how do you identify within the community as all of our wonderful acronym?
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, I identify as non-binary. I also identify as queer and we'll get into later like why queer? But yeah, that's me.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I identify as bisexual, but I'm also like becoming more comfortable with like just branching out into queer. I think that is like starting to feel a little better for me. So yeah, queer.
Bryan (he/they):I think that feel is like starting to feel a little better for me. So yeah, I'm really enjoying the like reclamation of queer, because I also identify as queer and I'm like it just feels better. It just feels better to say for me personally and I've taken a lot of queer studies classes and so I think that's kind of helped from like the academic in me. It's like oh, I have like an academic understanding of this word now and so it makes more sense in my brain.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Oh yeah, absolutely yeah.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your roles in education. What do you do as far as education goes?
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, so we are both former classroom teachers, both like formally trained, went to school, were to like become classroom teachers and ipso facto are no longer in the classroom. We decided to start our own business. It's an educational collective here in Baltimore City which is called Be More Transform that is short for Baltimore Transformative Learning Collective but we are still very much engaged and involved and passionate about teaching, learning, educating and educators and youth. So we, like this morning, had a graphic novel club with 11, like seven through nine year olds at a local bookstore, which was super fun. Like we still, it was great.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, we still we work with schools we work with youth, we work with families, we consult. We do a lot of things that we honestly didn't really have the capacity, both like energy wise and resource wise, to do while we were teaching full-time right, because it was like 65 hours a week, um they're being like the stress of like.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Oh yeah, that that like was extra exhausting yeah, oh, absolutely teachers being like no, you can't.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, absolutely no, this is we're recording on a saturday and they got seven to nine year olds to get up in the morning on a saturday and go read graphic novels. So right there, like that's just a huge achievement, congratulations thank you.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Those kids, like I mean graphic novels are super fun we're, we love them ourselves, but like it was just like a big nerding experience, um, and it brought us it brings us a lot of joy to be able to do things like that.
Bryan (he/they):I love that. All right, do you mind taking a trip back in time with me and talking a little bit about what your experience was like as a queer student?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I love this question so much. I I'm someone who, like knew I was queer as a younger person, but like I didn't feel like I was in a place where I could really be out, um, and like my, my parents kind of knew, but they didn't take it seriously. It was very much like a phase thing. And so when I went to school, which was a religious school, um, I felt scared because I just didn't know um how it would be received. Um, and yeah, I went.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):It's funny because I went to an all girl Catholic school and there were so many people in my class who were like bye or like you know, but then when they left, they had, they had like a boyfriend, you know, and so it was like hard to know like who was really. And um, yeah, I just felt really scared. So I did, I wasn't out in school and um, I, I look back and I think about how I spent so much time like in my head just like confused, not understanding, not really having any role models, um, not knowing which teachers were safe, um, and I had some friends who knew, but like also were like I don't know what to do you know and, um, yeah, it was just kind of a scary time, you know, but no, like physical threats, just sort of like it was.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):A lot of it was in my head and yeah, yeah, so it's interesting and it makes me feel so good now that I'm like I'm just out, you know, and like great and it. I in some ways wish that, like if I could go back, I would just maybe do it differently.
Bryan (he/they):I don't know yeah it is wild what the like fear of the unknown will do. Because you grew up in a religious school no physical threats, right, you knew some people who said that they were also bisexual, or which means they're a part of the queer community. But at the same time your brain is like creating this real sense, like this real sense of fear, and I think the brain is so wild, like in another life. I'm sure I'm going to study the brain, or I've studied the brain, because I think it is so wild just the fact that, like you, can think something and it can become so real and visceral for you yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and honestly that I resonate with that.
Gab Sussman (they/she):So hard um, I was, yeah, like again, I was a. I was a really like terrified kid. Um, I grew up in a really small town in the Hudson Valley of New York, so like the suburbs of New York City. It was like mountainous and so like people kind of like you know, like they were, I don't know it, just like it didn't feel welcoming for me. I was also one of the few like kids of color in my school and then like even fewer, mixed kids, mixed race kids. So I just like that, coupled with the fact, yeah, so I just like I never felt like I fit in and I desperately wanted to, and so it like it looked a lot like me mirroring what other people were doing. I also then, on top of that, grew up in a household that didn't encourage like risk-taking or even just like exploration. Like my parents had like a very clear idea of like what our roles were as daughters, speaking of like my older sister and I, and we just like did what we expected, um, and we were expected to do what was expected of us. So, like, all of those things just led me to um, just to just being like a follower in a sense. Right, and so I.
Gab Sussman (they/she):It wasn't until my early adulthood that I had an opportunity to just really learn more about who is Gab like? Who am I as a person Like? What do I care about? What do I like? That is not in response to what the people around me like, um, or like who they are Right, so, um, I think, like, so, as a queer child, I yeah, I was just like a shell, right, I just like receded in, I didn't want to like, I didn't have any mirrors or any examples of what it looked like to be to try on new things, or even like within what it means to be non-binary or as someone who was assigned, assigned female at birth.
Gab Sussman (they/she):There was a very clear uh expression, right, that you were expected to match in order to again be accepted, and this was like in the late 90s, early 2000s, um, yeah, so that was, that was a time and, unlike victoria, I would never go back. Um. Time travel was like offered if somebody, somebody would have to pay me a lot of money, yeah, to go back in time as myself or as any or like like nope, history can stay there.
Bryan (he/they):I hear that I think I think of it as like a reparenting thing you know, oh, yeah, yeah yeah, little Victoria.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Also I forgot to mention I'm from Queens, new York, so I, like, went to a Catholic high school in Queens. We're both New Yorkers, anyway. But yeah, like like a way to be like you are fine.
Bryan (he/they):You're like you can claim this thing, you know, because I, at the end of the day, like my parents were supportive, you know, but like at the Bronx, so in New York City, and you had an experience that's similar to me and my experience and we're both in these places that are like archetypal progressive right, but still in the late 90s, earlys, there was this real, uh, strict, binary, uh and expectation, like when I quit baseball to do music was like a huge deal because you know that was a more of a sissy thing to do, um, and then, wow, what happened when I became a musical theater actor in high school.
Bryan (he/they):So I think it's so interesting because a lot of people when I talk to them who are from the Midwest and whatnot, and I share that you know we had the same experiences, even though we were in vastly different places and even though there's this perception of progress, um, and so I think it's pretty interesting just having that shared experience from across the coast um, yeah, that is yeah, and especially because when people think of like oh you know, new york and california the most liberal places in the country is it's that's like the go to right.
Bryan (he/they):Those are the two spots, and especially because I grew up in a suburb of Los Angeles, like LA and New York City, those are the places to be if you're going to be different. But a lot of the stories that I've heard over the last two years doing these interviews really mirror what I experienced in LA and what you're saying you experienced here in Queens and in the Hudson Valley. So it's it's really interesting to me, just kind of the perceptions that we have about space and time and what it means to be in a specific like the, the idiom that you know, the grass is always greener and it's quite in fact the same grass.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, yes and yeah.
Bryan (he/they):So we touched a little bit on this earlier, but can you talk a little bit more about your experience as classroom educators?
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were teachers for a long time, like I taught for 10 years and, um, essentially, yeah, like you have your master's in inclusive education, I got my master's in educational leadership and both did, like you know, took on DEI roles and teacher leader roles and ultimately, like it's, it was never the students, the students were never the problem, they're always delightful.
Gab Sussman (they/she):It was. It's always the politics and the, the adults who like center themselves, who are ultimately like incompetent, um, in their roles, right, um, and don't fully see education, uh, or don't have, don't share this, like, didn't share the same values that we have, right. So we, as classroom teachers, like it was we had the opportunity to work on the same team and it was really, really fun and it was, I mean, that's how we met. We met because we were on the same teaching team, teaching team and, um, it was just it got to a point where it was untenable, where, um, people were so resistant, where they were like targeting us um.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):It was like it was hostile and angry.
Gab Sussman (they/she):It was yeah it was really hostile and like to the point where, like, like Victoria and I and many other people had been given roles to steward DEI initiatives at our school were like I was like, literally, when I was hired at that school, like it was part of the understanding that I had all this training and I would be stepping into like partner with the DEI office to do this, and yet I was then, uh, like they're not like villainized essentially for like speaking out and doing the things that literally hired you to do. Oh yeah, like they.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I remember the email that went out when you were hired and I was just like, oh my god, yeah, like I want to be friends with this person. And then you started and I was like yes, like, and then other people were like wait, I feel weird and it's like okay, so like I don't know what to tell you. Like it's, it's not about you, yeah.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Right, like, yeah, yeah, so that like, ultimately it became not about us as classroom teachers, but it was just like our values with this education system, just like we cannot continue to be complicit in something that is so harmful and so violent towards people who are like us, Right, so that was. That just led to a point. And, yeah, that led to a point where we were just like, well, let's do something together. Yeah, and that's where Be More Transformed came from.
Gab Sussman (they/she):But we have so much respect for educators, administrators, like, again, like, do a lot of work to support youth and educators and to really hold space for all stakeholders. Hold space for all stakeholders Because I mean education, every like. Education is a human right and the way in which most of our country is is treated within the system is absolutely horrible. And so, like, as abolitionist educators, we want to both help, triage and respond and support like the folks who are in it now world where education is different, is is just completely like, is decolonized, is d is. Is just has been reconstructed to look completely different from what it is now and you don't know what it looks like but like it's not this well, and I think it is already changing, like I see all these articles about.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):like kids are kids who are feeling safer at home during COVID or not? And it's like this is something we will need to address, because we can't just pretend that there were kids specifically, like there were lots of black and brown kids who felt safer right, lots of queer kids who felt safer out of the classroom. That's saying a lot. And like you can't just forget about those people. I understand that there are people in this country who want to just forget that those people exist, but we're not going anywhere.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And I I think it scares some people, like when we talk about like the education system is going to change because it will have to, it's going to have to evolve in order to stay relevant. You know, and I think some people are like, yeah, but it's just going to like there, it's just going to be replaced by like voucher, whatever. But I am excited for the change because I'm hoping it's like you said, that it's like decolonized, it's like more abolitionist, it's more inclusive. You know, and like, unfortunately, we we do hear about people who don't like to hear about inclusion, and it's like it's just so.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):You know, it reminds me of how I felt when I left the classroom, which was I was just disgusted by the amount of adults who centered themselves, who, who were. It was really about their discomfort level. Yeah, yeah, you know who would come into my classroom and tell me, like you know, your class is doing this and I just don't think it's a good idea, because people are going to think that you're trying to indoctrinate them. But it's like, buddy, these kids brought it up to me and then I have empowered them to be leaders, right, so like, yeah, but it's like they can't. These are people who don't see children as like fully realized human beings. Yeah, our country hates kids.
Gab Sussman (they/she):they always oh, hates, teachers, you know like, it's just so clear and we're not about that life and and again.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Like we understanding, like had a lot of like privilege in that moment to yes, to like literally fully step out of the system and create something from scratch it's been hella hard and, at the same time, that's why, like as a collective, um, we are excited about half, like our work towards building, towards being a co-op yeah, so that other educators can have a pathway to, to still stay connected to kids and families and education, but outside of the oppressive system that exists today.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And potentially play a role in shaping something new. I would really like for us to down the road, you know like think about that. Think about like getting people on board who know what it is to like reshape policy or so I don't know.
Gab Sussman (they/she):It's a long way, a long way, what we do, yeah, we like we are, yeah, we're in like community with people yes, oh yeah, education, yes, yes, but like it is also just the two, it's just the two of us? Yeah, that's not really a possibility unless we're never yeah, when we say active, like I wish we had like a yeah, an army or not. An army like a, like a, a horde? Yeah, we will.
Bryan (he/they):A murder of people behind a murder of people.
Gab Sussman (they/she):I love it um, but it's just us for now yeah for now.
Bryan (he/they):oh, there's so many things that popped up when you guys were talking, and the first one that really comes to mind for me personally, is I truly believe that, from the outside perspective, there are no humans in schools, because we are treated so like educators aren't human and children aren't human and administrators aren't human. Like some of the things that I've read in emails, some of the things that have been said to me and other people, I know who it's, just because we are working, doing our job in a classroom. They're quite disgusting. I had an administrator tell me that she had never been called cunt before, ever in her life and she came to this school and received several emails a week with that.
Bryan (he/they):A week A week and I'm just like, wow, Like, and when I was growing up, that was one of the most offensive things that you can say to a woman, and I know that some of the queer community is like you know. We're bringing it back. We're reclaiming it, whatever but um, it's still, like in context, a very derogatory thing to say oh, yeah, and it's wild to me, because I really think that, like if we were considered human beings, that this behavior would calm down.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, it's also interesting, brian, because I mean we like when we work with school, like some of the schools that we've worked with, and the way in which and even not like even when we were teachers like hearing the way some teachers talk about their students oh my gosh. But then also, like I know, when I in my like master's degree program, working with other aspiring and like people who are administrators already but like getting their master's degree, like the way that, like teachers were spoken about in the same way, like this us versus them, like you know, they're like down there. And then also hearing the way people at the district level talk about principals and and and teachers. It's, it's patriarchal, but it's like. It is this like cycle of like, um, oh my god, what is it? When it's like people who are oppressed, right when you like, for when you like, punching down that's what it is.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Oh, you're like literally right um, which is like terrible because right there's, there's someone who's like punching you, so you're like punching the people below you who have less power, but ultimately it's like no one feels respected.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Right, yeah, right.
Gab Sussman (they/she):And yeah, the people like at the center are like ultimately getting the worst of it, which is like the kids, the students are the ones who again, like, are affected by all the policy, are affected by the, the revolving door of and the like lack of retention right, I'm sick. They don't have any power in this, in what happens or in any situation. And then we like and then it's like, oh, but learning loss and like all these other things, and it's just like come on, people Like wow.
Bryan (he/they):Yep, I learning loss that can go right up there with self-care, uh as far as educational buzzwords that don't need to be said anymore.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah, I remember that being the thing that so many educators and and like parents and caregivers were worried about when COVID first started. Like that fall.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Oh, the learning loss, oh yes.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And I was like can we talk about the like? I remember saying to parents so was a the virtual teacher. And I said to families like I am more concerned if your child is enjoying themselves. And they were like yes, yes, that's great, but learning loss. And I I couldn't get over, like as a as a parent myself, like I I really am like is my child feeling good?
Bryan (he/they):and safe when they go to school?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah, are they, do they? Can they get their needs met, you know? And like they're learning, that's great. But like that whole idea, I was like where are they going? Like they're in fifth grade, can we relax Like they're?
Gab Sussman (they/she):also like not going to learn if they feel stressed they're not that part, that part. Literally like neuroscience people.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Let's be real, um, but science goes out the window, right, yeah, right but that's where, like, the inclusion piece that, like, we are so passionate about, comes in, because when you are inclusive, you are paying attention to the whole person. You're not just thinking about, like did you do your homework right? It's like, okay, well, what's going on? How do you feel like you're fully just thinking about, like did you do your homework right? It's like, okay, well, what's going on? How do you feel like you're fully involved? All of you. You can be raggedy, like we were saying, you know, and it's not that much extra work to like open a space, to like allow people to be themselves well, you for you, for for some people it's not.
Gab Sussman (they/she):OK, right, because that again like that means you have to have like the self-awareness.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):You need to have like the emotional capacity not the emotional capacity, but like, literally, the emotional intelligence to like whoop, like something's off.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Right, no-transcript. Like what are the issues? Like working with teachers, working with administrators, because like it is solvable, it's absolute. Like teacher retention and especially like with Black teachers, with queer teachers, with disabled, disabled teachers. Like there are actual strategies to retain teachers and yet, like every week there's like a new article like oh my god, teachers are leaving the field. It's like I mean again, nobody's refusing to actually invest the resources, aka the money, to do what needs to be done to keep your teachers and um, yeah, it's just like that refusal.
Gab Sussman (they/she):So, yeah, like it's yeah, the like tip of the iceberg. Like, oh, there's like a massage chair person. Like, yeah, we're like, oh my god, yeah, no, the cafeteria no, but like, which is a thing we've seen?
Bryan (he/they):um. Are you serious? Oh my god, no, it's in the teacher's oh, okay but you know I definitely think it was yikes, you know that does not sound relaxing at all, though, like these children like screaming and you're in a massage chair or the airport like the person who's giving you a massage in the chair, not the massage chair in a teacher's lounge Not terrible but absolutely not terrible.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And like get a massage from this person in the middle of the cafeteria. So thank you so much for this. Like I love. I love feeling like this while, like 17 year olds are walking past.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, in the middle of the cafeteria.
Bryan (he/they):So thank you so much for this.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Like I love feeling like this while, like 17-year-olds are walking past.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, yeah. Or a $20 bag of candy, yeah yeah. Or my favorite was, like it's the holidays, congratulations. We gave you this cup with some Hershey's Kisses in it. Have a great day. I'm like okay, why is everything related to food? That's what I want to like as a person who has body dysmorphia because of my weight. Why does everything for a teacher come down to? We bought you pizza and we gave you candies and cookies. Yeah, like, that's literally the archetypal. I'm going to give you this apple and, while the apple might be healthy, like it's still food Like, why does?
Bryan (he/they):everything center on food for teachers.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):You know what's interesting? That's what a lot of teachers do for kids too. It's like if you do this, we'll get a pizza party. So it's almost like they're like oh well, it works for the kids.
Bryan (he/they):So do it for the teachers. It's funny my nine-year-old came home all excited because they had a donut party, because they, you know, had the highest rate of improvement on you know, whatever test they were taking, and I was like cool.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah.
Bryan (he/they):Donut party, wow yeah.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes, yeah.
Bryan (he/they):Donut party. Wow, yes, yeah. So we've talked about this. You know, punching down kind of feeling when it comes to the general educational community and lots of people are leaving the field but lots of people are also joining the field Not at the same rates, obviously, Otherwise there wouldn't be a quote unquote shortage. There's not a shortage. You just don't want to pay people and treat them well.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, people are just refusing, yeah they don't want to be punching bags. It's wild. It's wild when that happens, but if you were talking to someone who was just hopping into the classroom and they're a queer educator and given you know the turbulent times, that question reminds me of the time we um spoke to like literally uh, a group of um like uh student teachers.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Oh yeah. And we were like basically like explaining. Our goal was to like help contextualize and to bring to I guess there's so much like there, like there's so much societal, like misinformation and disinformation about what it means to be a teacher, um, and so we were like hoping to be just like another touch point, to like inject some realism into, into some folks right who are like working towards becoming teachers.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And and one of the people was like it sounds pretty terrible and he said it sounds like you're trying to scare us from going into the field Cause we were also giving them tips about like when this happened, like scenarios like if this thing happens, make sure you know who the administrator is that does X, y, z so so that, like you, can actually try to get your needs met right, you know, but we were trying to be as honest as we could and yeah and he, he did not, he did not like yeah and well, I don't.
Gab Sussman (they/she):I don't know if I want to assume that he didn't like it I think it was just like sorry, no yeah, I think it was just like, oh, like this is very much darker, or I don't know. Like just hearing him say that, I was like oh yeah, we're not. The intention is not to scare you again, it's to like, prepare you. So yeah, did you want to dive in?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah, I think this is a great question. Yeah, I think this is a great question. I think it's something that even teachers who are just like switching schools should think about too.
Bryan (he/they):You know it's like how?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah, it's essentially like, how do you gauge the environment Right, how do you gauge the culture? Because, like in an interview, you might get one vibe, but then it might be totally different. And so, like, um, I would say like, yeah, use your judgment, take a little time to get to know the ecosystem of the school so that you can determine how safe you feel. You know, um, one thing that I did to to you know, when I started at the school where we taught together, was I got a ton of posters and postcards that I mostly postcards to show like that showed like my value of inclusion and how, like I wanted it to, I wanted people to like get the feeling when they came into the room that like, oh and I?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):you know, I had like safe space posters and things like that and I knew who was safe based on who would walk, cause I also had some on the door who would walk past and say like, oh my gosh, I love your posters, thank you for having these up. You know, whatever, whether it was a parent, a child administrator, teacher, right but I would also have and this was mostly from other teachers who would come in and say I don't know why you want to advertise all of this. I would take that down, I would take this down and I was like so that person's not safe, you know.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And those were the same teachers that would come in and like talk badly about kids. Um, and so it was good, that way I could learn like. All right, I don't talk to that person. And so it was like an easy way to kind of like show, try and like be authentic within my space.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Um, and then know once I was out of my classroom, like who, who, I could be safe around yeah, it's like an implicit way, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I I think something that I began to do, um, as I got more, as I became more like comfortable with my own values as a teacher, like I remember when, uh, I was a student teacher and we had to write like an educational philosophy, right, and that was very much just like a regurgitation of, like, all the education philosophers that I had, just that I had learned about, right, I'm like I'm not skiing and Pet and like blah blah blah Right.
Gab Sussman (they/she):But, like, as I began to really and this was also coupled with me learning more about myself Like I I was like, yeah, those two journeys like Gab discovery and Gab and Gab being like Ms Sussman were just kind of like together. I began, like, when it came time to interview and to talk to people, I wanted people to know who I was, because I ultimately wanted to, I wanted to be who I was. So like I want to be who I am in all facets of my life. Right, I don't want to compartmentalize. I don't want to be this kind of person at home, this kind of person at work and at school. Right, it's like I don't want to be this kind of person with my students and this kind of person with my colleagues and this kind of person with my boss. Right, like, I want people to know who I am.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Like and I am one person like I believe my beliefs. Like how I move through the world is how I want to move through every space that I'm in, and so I was really intentional about like, taking that, taking that risk honestly and just being really clear about like yeah, I actually use they pronouns and, um, I remember I started, I adopted like they pronouns mid year like and a lot like just kind of was.
Gab Sussman (they/she):I came out to my, my students were the first group of people I came out to as non-binary and I I would say, like as a first-year teacher or someone who's aspiring to be a teacher, to like really it's, it's absolutely attainable to find a school that accepts you for who you are and that like stupid, like idiom of like you gotta kiss a lot of browns to get your prince or princess right, is that the thing? Or you gotta try on long shoes.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I don't know, there can be trial and error.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Right, and obviously I'm saying trial and error with like schmoozing over the part that's like maybe trauma, maybe pain like you know this, like breaking up with the school, leaving mid-year, like those things are real, they happen to a lot of us and often, like, if you are in a space that truly accepts who you are, that is going to allow you to be successful, happier, it's going to benefit everyone, right. Like the schools students deserve to have, like dope, queer, bipoc, disabled, you know, like all, all like marginalized teachers who represent their marginalized identities, and oftentimes we are the we are like in the revolving door and that sends a message to students. And so, ultimately, like, if you are not in a safe environment, like don't feel like you have to stay for the students. Like you need to prioritize your like how you feel in that environment.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Um, and like, we know so many people who, like, are different in at work, like they aren't out to their students, and even like high school teachers, like middle school teachers, and like we also know early childhood, elementary students, elementary teachers that are out to their students, like it's, you can absolutely be out to any age kid, right, but you're just going to be like happier and more successful if you really try to lean in, to showing up authentically. Um, it's gonna take, it might take time and that's fine. It's just like if I can empower people to have that as a goal like to work towards.
Bryan (he/they):Would love to see more of that yeah, absolutely, and I think that collectively you guys have made it a point about. It starts with interview, it starts with research, but then it also starts the first day you're on campus. You know, it's almost like each step that you're taking is a new evaluation of what the space is like in the environment you're going through, and I agree with you in I understand that when times are hard, it might feel like you have to stay someplace because you can't afford to go elsewhere.
Bryan (he/they):But I also want to say that it will be much better for you to look while you are trudging along, because you can always look for something better, even if you're dealing with what you currently have.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Absolutely, yes, absolutely. And that's that is also like, again, we I was in that situation where I was like I really like you to go somewhere else and but then you work 65 hours a week, like you know. It's like you're tired, like you have papers to grade, you like have all the things, you're worried if your school is going to catch wind, that you're looking like all the things and it's like, look at like all the things and it's like, yeah, like it really it's worth the investment. Um, it really is. And also like what we love. What we love about our work is that we get to have, um, we host a monthly series for anybody who works with kids, um, and we have free food or anybody who works with kids, and we have free food, free drinks, and it's a great way to break out of that silo.
Gab Sussman (they/she):So, often like when you're working in a school, like your friends are teachers because they have the same schedule, right Like you might go out for drinks after work. You end up getting really close to your colleagues. But you may not know your counterpart Right If you teach third grade like the third grade teacher literally in the school a block from you.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Right or like even outside of your, your, your grade band or your grade level.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Encouraging folks to branch out and try to really break out of that silo and meet other people will also help with just getting leads on other things Right, like being a teacher, as I mean, we're not like career changer, like we're no longer in class, we're still educators.
Gab Sussman (they/she):But what we have noticed is that, I mean, if a lot of people love to hire teachers because teachers are doing a lot, we have to be hella organized, we have to be good communicators where we can like multitask Right and so oftentimes, like there are other education adjacent or teacher adjacent roles at other organizations that you may not have like even realized, like oh, I, this is interesting, maybe I'll try this for a little bit. You know, like yeah, and so like also just trying to like wade through that and like hold space for yourself. But also it can be really easy, as you said, brian, to like feel stuck and then just like, okay, I'll just sign my contract or I'll just see where they put me and oh, I hate that. You know, like if you get moved but then you never do anything about it, try to prioritize yourself and and give yourself like that, that opportunity to find something that will make you a little bit happier right, absolutely breathing room.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I think the other thing that can cause the stuck feeling is like the guilt of thinking about like oh, but if I leave, and I think there is something that go that like is like maybe programmed into teachers to believe that like oh, if we leave, like oh, my gosh who will they have to do right?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):and that like leaving in some ways, like, if you think about it, like the burnt out teachers who've been there for so long and they're just mean, you know, like they stayed too long and now they, just now they maybe they started their career loving kids or tolerating that you know, and now they're like just angry you know, that the kids have questions that are like normal questions, you know, and I think about that that it's like if you're worried that you leaving mid year could be traumatic like it might be for some kids they might really miss you, but like also you staying and like burning yourself to a crisp is not good for you but it's also really not good for the kids.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Cause, like they'll know, you're going to snap more often. You're going to because, like they'll know, you're gonna snap more often. You're gonna. You know, unless you're I don't know, I don't know, I don't know like yeah, we've seen it, yeah, and it's just like it's not.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I just I think that's probably worse I don't know. I mean, everyone has their own gauge, but, um, I think the myth of like you're the only one who can help them is like it's not fair to anybody, you know yeah, no, absolutely not yeah, and kids will like you can still keep in touch with yes that part we I'm still in touch with like students.
Gab Sussman (they/she):I've talked many, many years ago yeah and it's so sweet, like when you leave, like, yeah, you can always share your email, like it's. It's not like you'll never see them again. Maybe some you won't, but like, ultimately, like the kids who want to keep in touch with you can have that agency and, um, yeah, it's just like. And also another one last thing to add kids are great everywhere. I like, and just because the school that we worked at like they did a really interesting job convincing us that, like our students are amazing, they are unlike anywhere else. And I do remember like I worked at this school right after I had moved and I remember being like, oh my god, these kids are like a little bit more vibrant. I don't know. There's like something different about them and I mean they were great. I love those students. And, like, we work with many schools across the city and we love every group of students.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):They're all adorable and fearless and wonderful.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, and so like, if you leave, like I think there's just like all of these layers that are put on teachers to keep them stuck, like to keep us stuck Right, and pushing back against that, like it's very much like it needs to be an intentional disruption out of the pattern of you, like literally, just like falling asleep every night on the couch right and you're like I could have like updated my resume, but like no, like pry those eyeballs open, like give it one last look. Yeah, just like, yeah, just it takes that intentional, like effort. But absolutely.
Bryan (he/they):there's something that you were saying and it got me thinking about how, like, educational structure is very much built on like patriotism and nationalism, and it's that idea of like, why do we have mascots to get everybody behind the school? And this is our school, and so that's why we have the most amazing kids, and our kids here are special, and not only do they convince the teachers of that, but they try to convince the children of that and that we're better than the people down the street and it's just I. I feel like I read an article on this about a year ago, but don't quote me on that. Maybe it was a meme, who knows, but the idea is still lingering in my brain about how, how, how education is set up in a way for to try to convince people that, like you, are better than other people you are better than other people.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, it's ultra competitive in that way. Yeah.
Gab Sussman (they/she):And and also to to um the way in which it also like disempowers families, like we've also in school that we've taught at like like schools, some schools like don't want to teach all learners um, and so, for whatever reason, they'll um right like identify like these, this is our niche, right, or these are the students we can serve.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Well, anybody outside of that um, they either have to put up with it um get their needs met elsewhere through tutoring, through support groups, through whatever um, or right like maybe leave um, but how disempowering that is for queer youth.
Gab Sussman (they/she):And it's especially like when it comes to bullying, when it comes to just yeah, like I'm thinking of situations where, like kids are just bullied to the point where they have to leave that school or they their learning needs are just not being met at all and have to leave that school.
Gab Sussman (they/she):And it's like and to to your poor brian about like that, like well, like you just didn't fit in and it's like no, the point is, is that like, especially in public education, what are we talking about fitting in? Like this? I mean again history of public education holding space for that. But yeah, also like public education is for the public, like we can't, and that's why there are laws in place saying that you can't discriminate or you can't not tend to the needs of these kids, right, um? But, yeah, schools will like the mental gymnastics or the districts, right Um, that will happen. Uh, in order to do that, um, and we're in Maryland and, uh, in Baltimore city, um, there, like a system that's called school choice for high school and that's like a whole and middle school and middle, thank you.
Gab Sussman (they/she):That's a whole mess. You know charter school system, like that's a whole other podcast, but like ultimately it just ends up being this, ends up being the mess that exists today yeah, I'm thinking about doing a summer school session of this podcast, where we pick topics and just have people talk about them.
Bryan (he/they):So one is going to be like charter schools and the other one is going to be about, you know, teacher self-care like from a teacher perspective what do you need?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yeah, oh love that.
Bryan (he/they):So, so I'll I'll let you know if we get to charter schools, oh, absolutely. Because that is definitely a. Thing.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Absolutely.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, and not to mention like voucher programs and stuff like that.
Gab Sussman (they/she):There's a lot yeah.
Bryan (he/they):Academic policy. We'll just start there. Final question for you all before we wrap up the interview is thinking about all the things we've talked about. I mean, we still have a love of education and a love for educating students. However, the educational system and the school communities are very toxic. So what are some things that you think that the school's communities can do to be more inclusive of LGBTQIA plus folks?
Gab Sussman (they/she):Something that we've seen, that has been really impactful, that we've been a part of, is engaging all stakeholders. Yeah, um it. It is so important. Like again, this is like a, this is about the students, but this does not mean that only the students get the lessons. On queerness, right, like teachers need to be trained, administrators and staff need to be trained, families need to be trained, and it needs to come from this, like this lens of well, like if we are a community that cares about each other. We know that this, like research shows that this population experiences school in this very oppressive, violent way. And like we need to do better as a community. Right and like take it back from the patriotism. Like rah, rah, go tigers. It's like we are community, we care about each other and we do that by right, like showing up, by doing the learning, by asking the hard questions, by like holding each other accountable.
Gab Sussman (they/she):So we need to make sure that there is work done at every stakeholder level. Um, and if you're going to make students sit through assemblies, then you need to make the teachers sit through the, through the faculty meetings, then you need to make the parents sit through the parent meetings, like I, like we see it, where I mean we've worked with schools that when they're like what do we do, how do we? And we're like needs to be a comprehensive, like support, right, we support all stakeholders and they're like, but can we prioritize the students? And then and like, yeah, I mean sure, and like everybody, all the other adults aren't held accountable, don't have the same type of experience or learning, and therefore like, how far is the needle moving? And it's not. The thing is, it's not right? Um, it's like the whole house is on fire, but let's spray water into that one window one window right there, right, and it's like no, that's not actually going to put out the fire.
Gab Sussman (they/she):So really making sure that we are it takes like obviously intentional work, takes a lot of effort. But oftentimes, like schools want to bring the community together, they want people to be engaged, and it can feel challenging to again like make families show up for something or, you know, like have conversations, especially about like serving queer students. Depending on the school, the state that you're in, like even saying that might literally get someone fired. And I mean in Maryland, like like there, yeah, and so we just need to again think about like we really care about our community. And again, research shows that these students are like dying by suicide at a higher rate, are actually not performing as well academically as like other, as the mainstream, as like um, privileged students right like that we need to really sit with that and like do something about it yeah, the.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):The other piece I think about is, like many schools have mission statements and a lot of times these mission statements like sometimes it's just a word salad right. And other times it's like it actually makes sense and has substance to it right. And so when a school has a mission statement, if there's anything in there, that, why is that? I?
Gab Sussman (they/she):don't know my face. I don't know.
Bryan (he/they):Sorry.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):I was just like, did I do something?
Bryan (he/they):For those of you who are at home not being able to experience this because you're not watching it there is a random thumbs up that is appearing on the screen. Random thumbs up that is appearing on the screen. It is super fun, but nobody knows where it came from.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Um, but yeah, but so like I. I think about how, like using someone's words against them, right, like so, these schools that are like we value all kinds of learners, right, but then they really only want neurotypical learners right or like we value all kinds of people, but yet every single year, they literally like with pitchforks, like, chase out strong black female educators.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Right, like we're just like strong black and brown educators period, right, like, if they have that, you just remind like, oh, but it says this. Like, so is that? Oh, I thought you valued all kinds of learners, so then why can't this child get an accommodate you? Know or like why isn't this teacher allowed to? Share this book with their class or whatever it might be, and like it really boils down to one of our favorite phrases, which is walking the talk, these places they love to.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, right, whether it's in writing. Yeah, have pictures on the website. Yeah.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Drone video of like yeah. Have pictures on the website yeah. Drone video of like yeah. I think about how there's so many times where like something will get shut down yeah Right. Or or an event will get like very minimized because it upset an adult, right.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):One adult, usually One adult who made noise right, and I think about like, why don't, like many of us do, like we did this when we were at these schools like using their words against them, but like, if you're going to say you do this, you have to do this, say you do this, you have to do this, even if you have this angry lady or man or whoever person right over here who's like hey, I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Like do it, you have to do it, because you said you're doing it. And like it's this fear of like. I guess it's the bottom line, right, they're worried they're gonna lose. They're worried they're going to lose money. They're worried they're going to lose funding. You know from like.
Bryan (he/they):Foundations. Whatever, it is right yeah.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And it's just why are we teaching kids all these like important ethical lessons If then as adults, we're just supposed to like skirt around them Like it doesn't make any sense? And so it's like I just think, like reminding these places again and again, like this is in your mission statement yeah, this is what you said. If you want to write it more accurately than just say we're a bunch of chicken shits who actually can't deal with anything, bunch of chicken shits who actually can't deal with anything and we're scared, we're scared, that is the episode quote I love it oh wear it but it's like, that's what it feels like, and there were so many there's.
Gab Sussman (they/she):there's so much hypocrisy and there's so much like that's not right.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Apologize to Jimothy right now for you know, and it's just like no cause you're not going to you're going to you're going to make us feel bad that we are trying to include all learners, right, even the, the, whatever right, and and then it's fine for you to do that, because this one parent said something mean you know or? Like threatened to pull their kid good, goodbye yeah honestly yeah, and one.
Gab Sussman (they/she):You just reminded me of one more thing that um is really like oh my god, I think I literally just forgot it.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):All right maybe it'll like boomerang maybe it will.
Bryan (he/they):At this point in the interview, you get to ask me a question and so that I'll have time for you to like percolate with that.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Okay, so we talked about how much we love graphic novels at the top of the episode, and I'm not sure if you like graphic novels or not, but I know that there's a number of graphic novels by like queer authors and illustrators, and so I wonder if you can share, like, who's your favorite queer author or illustrator or what's your favorite queer graphic novel?
Bryan (he/they):Okay, so I'm gonna be a cliche and say because I don't. I don't read a lot of graphic novels. However, I've seen how impactful they are for my children. I am an auditory person, so I don't read a lot.
Bryan (he/they):I listen to audiobooks love that yes, um, and like I, well, I read audiobooks, um, but, um, and I can retain so much from that.
Bryan (he/they):But I, if I sat down and read a chapter, I'm so lucky because I found like for grad school right now I'm reading bell down and read a chapter. I'm so lucky because I found like for grad school right now I'm reading bell hooks and all of her books are on audiobook and I'm and they're actually read by a person and I'm like, oh, thank you, because I can retain this. Um, but I love the um, the heart supper series mainly because I got into it because of the show and then I went back and started looking at all of the like chapters and I love it was because of the show and the way that they used the graphic novel to influence the show, like they used animation in the show, that really pulled me to wanting to see what it looked like on the page yeah, oh, thank you also, I don't think that's a cliche, because it's a really beautiful story it really is, but impactful too.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, I, I agree and I think it's so, I don't know it's. It's nice to see representation of a wider range of the collective that is the LGBTQ community, because you've got, you know, pansexuality, asexual, you've got transgender people, you have bisexuality and, like it's not just, here's another cisgender gay male having a cisgender gay love story um so that is another big thing that I love about it is that it truly is inclusive, and the more that I would pick up on things from this the show and then like go back and read about them.
Bryan (he/they):I'm like I was seeing these, you know season one I'm seeing I bet that person is a part of the community and their fit into this kind of you know realm, and so I just I really appreciate the inclusivity of it, because I know that DEI is such a bad word right now, but it's so necessary in all things, including, you know, entertainment representation, and so I love seeing all of the inclusion in there. And then I'm also becoming a huge fan of love on the spectrum right now and they have a lot of, uh, people who go on that show who are really into manga and graphic novels and stuff, and I just see how impactful that is and it just makes me happy because, again, it's just from coming from a representation standpoint.
Bryan (he/they):I love it yeah, I haven't.
Gab Sussman (they/she):That's like on my list of things to watch, but, um, alas, I've been roped back into. Love is blind.
Bryan (he/they):Haven't gotten down that road yet. No, I heard that.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, I. I honestly I can't even remember what I was going to say, so, yeah All right.
Bryan (he/they):Well, at this point, let's share with everybody how they can connect with you and be more transformed.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes, oh my gosh. Yes, please, please connect with us.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, how do we?
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):do that. Yeah, you can find us on Instagram at be more transformed.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):And then our website is be more transformedorg.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes, Um our email is be more transformed at Gmail.
Bryan (he/they):Um so clear. I love it.
Victoria Lebrón (she/her):Yes, yes, yeah, and we, um, we have a newsletter that we put a lot of love into, so if you go to our website, you can sign up for the newsletter, um, and you'll hear about all the cool stuff we get up to every month. And it's like we try and make the newsletter a little bit cheesy and joyful, and so hopefully you enjoy it.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Well, maybe not cheesy, yeah, so I think other people might be like it's cheesy, but I mean, the newsletter is basically just us in email format.
Bryan (he/they):So this is a teaser.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes, if you like what we say, you want more of this? Um, yeah, but honestly I think that um, and then also if you're in Maryland or DC, like any of the surrounding states, um would love to hear from you. We again, like we work with schools, if you feel like, oh, yeah, like I could use some support, or want to come to one of our events, would love to, would love to meet you, would love to host you. Yeah, it's like there are thousands of us when I say that, I mean like teacher, there's so many of us, right, queer people like queer BIPOC people, queer BIPOC people who are teachers. Like we love our community and what we love about working with queer students is being able to emulate not emulate, but like be being a light in their world. To know that like being queer is joyful, is worth celebrating and can mean a lot of different things, but ultimately, like can bring, brings us a lot of happiness and connection. So um would love to to have more, more folks in our lives.
Bryan (he/they):Perfect. I love that. So all of those links folks will be inside the show notes. I want to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today. I really enjoyed it. I mentioned to them at the start of this meeting that it's been a while since I've recorded and so this was such a great like I don't know. It just opened up my heart. I was just so happy because it's been a while since I've gotten to connect with people in this way. So thank you so much for for being here and sharing your stories with everybody at home.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):Thank you, brian, it's been a pleasure.
Gab Sussman (they/she):Yeah, thank you for having this podcast, like it's been. I very much like have loved listening to past past episodes and and just like again feel like connected through my ears to the like past community or the past like speakers, and so love to have been here and thank you for doing. Thank you for doing this. This is so needed.
Bryan (he/they):Oh, it's honestly my pleasure to everyone at home. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Have a great day. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of teaching while queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.