Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 35
Embark on a profound exploration of the queer educator's landscape with the remarkable Craig Aarons-Martin (he/him), a seasoned teacher and consultant whose journey embodies resilience and transformation. This conversation unwraps the layers of teaching while queer, celebrating the significance of supportive relationships and the empowerment of young minds. As Craig recounts his own experiences, from the solace found in literature to the creation of his business, ccm Education Group, we honor the powerful narrative of representation and resonance in the books that have mirrored our lives.
Navigating the delicate dance of coming out to parents, I reveal the emotional tug-of-war of seeking acceptance while safeguarding personal well-being. Our dialogue expands on the importance of empathy and vulnerability, drawing inspiration from thinkers like Brene Brown, and considers the pivotal role of educators in guiding students through the intricate tapestry of cultural identity. Beyond personal anecdotes, we address the broader picture of inclusivity in schools, underscoring the necessity for educators to stand firm in their values and the potent alliance of supportive networks within the school community—the "Avenger squad" of allies.
As the episode draws to a close, we acknowledge the complexities of authenticity for new teachers and the myths surrounding support for the LGBTQ+ community. I express heartfelt thanks to Craig for sharing his evening with us and invite our listeners to continue engaging with the vibrant stories we share on Teaching While Queer. Our candid conversation serves as a testament to the relentless pursuit of an inclusive and affirming educational sphere, encouraging listeners to enact change and embrace acceptance in their own communities.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 35
Embark on a profound exploration of the queer educator's landscape with the remarkable Craig Aarons-Martin (he/him), a seasoned teacher and consultant whose journey embodies resilience and transformation. This conversation unwraps the layers of teaching while queer, celebrating the significance of supportive relationships and the empowerment of young minds. As Craig recounts his own experiences, from the solace found in literature to the creation of his business, ccm Education Group, we honor the powerful narrative of representation and resonance in the books that have mirrored our lives.
Navigating the delicate dance of coming out to parents, I reveal the emotional tug-of-war of seeking acceptance while safeguarding personal well-being. Our dialogue expands on the importance of empathy and vulnerability, drawing inspiration from thinkers like Brene Brown, and considers the pivotal role of educators in guiding students through the intricate tapestry of cultural identity. Beyond personal anecdotes, we address the broader picture of inclusivity in schools, underscoring the necessity for educators to stand firm in their values and the potent alliance of supportive networks within the school community—the "Avenger squad" of allies.
As the episode draws to a close, we acknowledge the complexities of authenticity for new teachers and the myths surrounding support for the LGBTQ+ community. I express heartfelt thanks to Craig for sharing his evening with us and invite our listeners to continue engaging with the vibrant stories we share on Teaching While Queer. Our candid conversation serves as a testament to the relentless pursuit of an inclusive and affirming educational sphere, encouraging listeners to enact change and embrace acceptance in their own communities.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton, my pronouns are he/ they, and I'm so pleased to be joined today by Craig Aarons-Martin. Hi, Craig, how are you doing?
Craig (he/him):I am doing pretty well. Hello, hello, hello. Teaching While Queer community Love it.
Bryan (he/they):So tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do? How do you affiliate within the LGBT community?
Craig (he/him):Great questions. So, being Craig Aarons Martin, who has the pronouns he/ him and I, happen to also be married to a wonderful gentleman who has chosen to walk this journey with me, which I am humbled and grateful for. I happen to be a 20 plus year veteran in this work of education, being a teacher, principal, superintendent, executive director, and now serve as a consultant. I have my own business, ccm Education Group. I serve as a consultant. I have my own business, ccm Education Group, where we co-create some bold solutions and strategies that empower our youth, as well as their educators and caregivers, to thrive.
Bryan (he/they):If you're not watching at home. He had the best smile when he was talking about his husband and I think there's just something so magical about sharing this element of relationship relationship because for so many of us it was an impossibility for so long that now it's like, oh, like to see the joy on your face when you talked about. It was super cute, um, so if you weren't watching, maybe check it out on the on the youtube and then, you know, come back. But I, I just love that moment because there's just something magical about you know, getting to live the life that you want.
Craig (he/him):Yeah, it's been a journey and I'm grateful because so many of us are in a very tough world today where, if you identify as queer or trans, based on the environment that we're in, it can feel very daunting to say, hey, is it possible for me to find a healthy, thriving relationship that I can, you know, coexist in, especially in such challenging times.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely so. Let's take a journey back in time, which may prove to be more challenging than what we're dealing with now, maybe not? What was life like for you as a queer student?
Craig (he/him):Great question. So I knew in elementary, middle school I think, more middle school into high school, I knew I was different. You know I love to play and enjoy my time with friends, play sports a little bit. I was an honor roll student. You know really great relations with my teachers.
Craig (he/him):But you know, behind the scenes, when I was like, all right, something's a little different, the girls aren't looking as scrumptious as the fellas, and I was like, all right, there's something there. And so I remember distinctly it was my eighth grade year I was walking to the bus stop and I saw this one guy and it like the level of heat and energy that is part of like that days of your lives and the young and the rest of you like, oh, child, I swooned. I swooned it was something, because I just was like okay, this is real. And it was very pronounced and I felt both in a level of excitement, but I was a level of terror because I'm like does he know? I'm looking at him and this is somebody who lived in my community, in my neighborhood. But I wasn't ready for that part of me to show up, but it was something. Wasn't ready for that part of me to show up, but it was something and, as a Black queer young man, I found solace in books.
Craig (he/him):I spent a lot of time in the library and I have to say that, like Elyn Harris, was my vehicle for understanding more about what it meant to be Black and queer in America.
Craig (he/him):And you know, if you you know, may he rest in power and peace.
Craig (he/him):But E Lynn had a way of pinning lives of Black queer men that resonated so much for me, especially the struggle between cisgender men who happen to be same gender, loving, and those who were incredibly closeted, and so there's some really interesting stories and narratives that lie within the pages over multiple books that I fell in love with and I felt like I could be a journey person and experience. You know something that felt forbidden for me in those books because in my family, my parents, my dad's side more than my mom's side, felt like there was a particular way men should show up they should be strong, you should have a wife, you should have kids, you should get out the house, you should be educated, you should have a strong faith system. You know, you should be able to work on cars and all these things and some of those things, absolutely I could show up and be, but other things I was like honey, not today, not tomorrow, not next week, that ain't going to be how this thing will play, so yeah, it's so interesting.
Bryan (he/they):I love that you were able to find this author who kind of connected with you and was able to kind of represent your story to an extent, or stories that are similar, which I really appreciate, because I feel like for a lot of us that representation doesn't exist.
Bryan (he/they):So I love that plug and we'll be putting a link to some of the books in our notes so that way, if anybody else is going through the same journey, that they might find some solace in this resource as well.
Bryan (he/they):I remember the first time I saw genuine like queer representation in writing and I was just like, oh wow, like this is powerful, this is meaningful to me, and I think that not enough is. You know, not enough is attributed to reading and how wonderful it is and how it can take you out of your space and take you into another world. Um, so even if you're an audiobook person like myself, I definitely recommend like go find those stories because for a little while you going to feel accepted and you're going to feel like you've gotten a little insight into what your journey could be, but also what your journey isn't, because I've read a lot of stories where people's journeys were a lot more difficult than mine and that gave me insight on, or a little bit of understanding, to know that I was in a better place than maybe you know. Your dark thoughts tell you you are.
Craig (he/him):Yeah, yeah, it's um. As I pause to think about what that 12, 13, 14 year old Craig, you know experience and how I bring him into therapy fairly often at this point when you are I knew I wanted to be, I wanted to be liked, I wanted to be loved, I wanted to be affirmed, I wanted to be seen. But I only want parts of me to be seen, because, growing up South, I grew up in New Orleans. So, interestingly enough, even though you could be all the things you want to be and at some point I snuck into a lot of clubs and had a lot of great dances with drag queens and my trans friends and my gender nonconforming friends, I didn't feel at the time that my village of love, my parents, extended family, were ready for the conversations that were necessary in regards to the spectrum of how one can love someone and the level of attraction. They were fixated on a particular way of showing up, and that was tough and I had.
Craig (he/him):You know, as I grew up and became a teenager and someone who was a little bit older, I too was one of those people who contemplated whether or not I was. Something was wrong with me. Was I born, you know, with a defect. You know pray, try to pray to get away. I tried to do all the things that they tell you to do. I contemplated suicide at times because I just didn't.
Craig (he/him):The everything that I was being taught and socialized to believe versus my reality were so contrast. They were just such a contrast between them. They were just such a contrast between them and I didn't have enough of a center in regards to understanding that I belong in this world, my light matters and that the people who are around me, who have nurtured me to be who I am, love me too. They just didn't have the tools or language to be able to convey their way of love or confusion or an awareness to how to do this differently.
Craig (he/him):And you know something that I'm coming to understand my parents, too, are human beings and adults who they also cared about what other people around them meant, thought about them and knowing they have a queer son who you know at some point would be out. There's questions about their parenting and whether or not something was wrong with them and all of the questions that they had about did they do something wrong? Because this is the way that, you know, I grew. You know I became who I am, and you know, over time and again, lots of therapy and not just my therapy, but also my parents did their own work for us to finally arrive in my 30s with a different set of conversations that hope to soothe my soul.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a lot of that going around, that shame of like I'm a bad parent, because this happened. And I think it's interesting because one of the things when, especially when I'm working with young people and they might be frustrated with how their parents are responding to their coming out or whatever their circumstances are, I try to remind them because it really takes some adult hindsight that your parents are people too and they have a set of complex emotions and those complex emotions are oftentimes going. They have a set of complex emotions and those complex emotions are oftentimes going to conflict with what your complex emotions are, or maybe they're exactly the same and that's why they're fighting. Yeah, and so it's. It's really, it's really hard from a parent perspective.
Bryan (he/they):Now, as a parent, I'm like, oh, you know, I need to cut more slack, maybe when I was younger, and so I try to kind of help with that message when I'm working with students, because I do think that parents need to get some credit, even if it's not the support that you want, but it's a step in the direction, like you have to take every step along the way, yes, but that being said, toxicity I'm not here for that. So if you have a parent who is like, completely toxic about what your situation is, then absolutely you don't need to celebrate those things. You need to figure out how to keep yourself safe. So it's like a double-edged sword, because I want to be like, yes, take a breath. But also I don't understand 100% of the situation at home, because I'm a third party, you know. But I think that in my own experience I can really relate to what you're saying, because I had my parents, you know, say. Or my mom told me later on that my dad had parents, you know, say. Or my. My mom told me later on that my dad had said you know, what did I do wrong? Or I must've failed him as a father. And I'm like, nope, uh, you know, and it's when I go, you know, ditching me or telling me to get out, or never speaking to me again. That's when you fail as a parent.
Bryan (he/they):It's not, you know, your child comes out as gay and you struggle with it a little bit. Struggle is fine and it's okay, cause you're having to learn something about somebody that you've known their entire lives. Um, but it really comes down to just acceptance and and then moving from acceptance to affirmation and all of that acceptance and then moving from acceptance to affirmation and all of that. So I don't envy parents. I mean even as a parent.
Bryan (he/they):It's funny the other day I filled out a form with my son and he had written down that he was heterosexual and I was like, oh well, now I know the answer to that. I'm just going to wait for you to tell me. I'm not going to just assume anything at any point, because I'm one of those like, yeah, when you're older, your partner Keep it real vague. And so I was like, well, that answers that question. But yeah, I don't envy those parents. Let's talk a little bit about school for you when you were younger so you got the solace at the library and the books Did you have a support system within school or how was that for?
Craig (he/him):you as I think about high school. High school was a place where I understood what was going on for myself in regards to my feelings. I didn't have a conduit to explore that, not within the school community. I winded up spending a lot more time on, you know, aol and Yahoo Messenger and in these, you know digital worlds, because there wasn't markers that said you know, this place is safe.
Craig (he/him):Growing up in south of New Orleans, for a spell when I was in high school, I had and I'm trying to think about this there weren't GSAs, even though we had 3,000 students. There had to be queer and trans folks in our space. We didn't have GSAs. We didn't have pride flags. It wasn't a thing yet and this is in the 90s, when I was in high school a plethora of very interesting characters on television, whether or not it's by Saved, by the Bell or some other shows. We didn't have that, and so, again, I spent a lot of time exploring and having conversations with people I probably should not have had conversations with, but they were an open portal for me to have conversations, meet people and whether or not it was safe or not, but it was what I chose to do.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, shout out to the AOL chat room generation. I am right there with you. And it's funny that even now, with all of the technology that exists, I prefer to meet people online because when I was in my formative years, my teen years, and I needed to explore what it meant to be me, that's where I went. I went online to be able to have the conversations that nobody else would have with me in person, and so I think that you know, now, as an adult, I'm like, oh yeah, I'd prefer to like I chat with people on Instagram and I like I meet with people in digital realms before I meet with them in person, because I just feel more comfortable in that environment at a conference, and that is, for me, like the most uncomfortable environment. Um, because I just don't handle lots of people.
Bryan (he/they):Well, and it's funny, because I grew up as a performer. I was an actor and a and a member of the band and I did all the things and everybody was like you're so extroverted. And then, as an adult, I realized I was like, no, I can turn it on, but I'm really like introverted when I'm in large groups and whatnot. So I think that's interesting, just you know. A shout out to the late 90s, because that really was where it was at. You would meet people and talk about lots of things. It didn't have to be like sexual, just like life in an AOL chat room, and you'd be able to connect with other people who you know had similar experiences. So that's a. That's a whole vibe. It is honestly.
Craig (he/him):What's interesting is I just I spent some time with a good friend of mine this weekend in DC. Of course, we closed out a club while we were there, but we were talking and reconnecting because we met initially online. So we had met. We met on this platform called King's Place, and this was actually a platform that first I was a member, then I became the administrator, so I winded up stewarding about 3,000 men from all over the world on this digital platform and we were sitting there talking about our journey as friends and just how much we've grown from when I started, and so it was important for me to be in a community where I could have conversations about what it meant to be a Black queer man of size, and you know if, for those who are part, you know who are identified as queer and you know you also identify as a man or male.
Craig (he/him):You know there's a lot of questions about the aesthetic, the body, aesthetic body positivity, body dysmorphia, and for me, I've always had, I've carried a great deal of body dysmorphia, even to this day, because I have you know, I have a chest. You know that that is a little bit more pronounced than I want it to be, and it was very hard finding dates and people who would be willing to love me for all of who I am in my body, but I understood that they didn't love, they couldn't like me and they couldn't be attracted to me if I wasn't attracted to me, attracted to me if I wasn't attracted to me. And so having to explore the stories and trappings of what it meant to be someone of size and no fats and no fems, you know, was very huge during my time of growing up in the nineties and the early two thousands, and then having, you know, some longstanding friends who are with me today from that initial platform and knowing that, you know, if it weren't for online communities, I may not be here today.
Bryan (he/they):That's awesome, not only like the idea that, if it weren't for online communities, you wouldn't be here today, because I do find that, like that support system helped me, it helped my husband, it helped several people that I I know like that is where we had to go at the time. Yeah, um, and I think that there's so many people now that are. You know, you just have easier access because it's an app, not a website. You don't have to be logged into a computer and you definitely don't have to deal with dial-up.
Bryan (he/they):Um, but what I really love is your conversation about body dysmorphia, because a lot of people don't think that men have body dysmorphia and I, like I identify as queer, so I find myself in the realm of, like, gender fluidity.
Bryan (he/they):However, for my whole life, even when I identified as male, I have had a body dysmorphia and it's something where, like I have the same same issue I have a more pronounced chest than what I would like. Um, I also, as as an adult, went like I wish I had more chest hair. You know, I wish I had more of this, I wish I had more of that, and, like you, start to see yourself and and start picking at yourself, but a lot of people don't talk about the fact that men go through this. We see tons of it when it comes to women. We see tons of it when it comes to transgender folk, even non-binary folk because of their transitional identities, but we don't see men and body positivity, men groups, and so now in the late 30s, I'm starting to see more of that happening and I love it and I love that you've had that support far longer than what I've seen pop up.
Craig (he/him):It's a journey. It is a journey there is. There is a, but they're in the UK. So I have spent a lot of time trying to find a space where men of size could be in community, but also be in community and embrace the art and the beauty and the uniqueness of our bodies. And in UK there's a group. There's this group or organization called Arrested Movement, and so they do this wonderful photography. Men are of all sizes and demographics and things like that, and they are brave enough to be in their natural states in this photography.
Craig (he/him):And what I appreciate is I appreciate the uniqueness of the varying bodies that I've seen. I also appreciate the celebration of it. I appreciate the fact that there is a vehicle where someone like myself can see something in someone else and feel a sense of pride and feel like, okay, I think you know, at some point I might want to be that model. You know I might want to put my body out there in all of his uniqueness at. You know, no matter how many years I've dedicated to being in the gym, my body is my body and also find new courage or find a different level of courage to embrace my body and all of it, even with me being married now and got a husband. You know, and you know we've been together for five years and I've had I still carry that same torture as a teenager to this day.
Craig (he/him):In years of therapy I probably have had seven or eight therapists and each of them I've talked to them about, except one. There was one. I just didn't feel comfortable talking to him and I think it's because he represented a body type that felt the ideals of, like you, I'm in a judgment. I didn't feel like he would like resonate, like that wasn't something he could, you know, journey with me on. So that was my, you know my thing.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, absolutely. I know that there's a friend of mine who does photography in Cincinnati and he started to do something like that. It's kind of fallen to the wayside a little bit, but it's called the male collection, um, and so it is about celebrating body positivity and all of its glory. It's men of all sizes, men of all races. It's pretty spectacular. I hope that he's able to bring it back, because I think that space is needed. So let's dive back in a little bit to education. So you went into education. You kind of run the gamut of positions within education. So how has your experience as a queer person influenced your work in education?
Craig (he/him):Great question, trying to think about this. For me it was always important and I think that it was birthed in me that I'm a role model. So the moment I walk out the door I'm a role model, regardless of whether or not I want to be, and it is important that I be seen and I be present and my young people have access to me with the balance of femininity and masculinity, and I think that my students just took me to be who. Mr Martin, who you know, he's crazy, he's all over the place, but he can be difficult at times, he can be very rigid, but he's loving and he's humorous and he's funny and he plays with us and all of those things were a wonderful malaise Well, not malaise, because that's not a great term, but I think it's a curation of energy and vibrance. That may have been in contrast to the experiences that they're living in their day-to-day lives, because most of the kids I've ever served have had perpetual glass ceilings in their lives. They've always had more odds than they needed, but because they they had an opportunity to spend time with me, they felt affirmed because I that's what we did every day. We started a day with an affirmation. It is for everyone, regardless of zip code, ethnicity, gender, identities, all like all of us and Mr Martin is about every single soul and what I have learned lately.
Craig (he/him):I had a parent of mine because when I was teaching, my sexuality, my identity was my sexual identity or my preference, wasn't on, it wasn't up for conversation. I think part of it was because I knew that, being an elementary teacher who happened to be queer, I was in an environment that felt safe. I didn't know if my leader protected, if it was going to protect me, and I knew that most people thought that it was cisgender and straight, because I always got asked are you married? How many kids, which wife? But when I talked to you, I did this book club based on genderqueer. Kobabi, I think, is her name and I can share it in the notes, but she decided she was a former parent of mine, of students I taught and she was part of this book club and she's done two book clubs with me now and what she told me was Mr Martin, we do, we knew, we knew you were queer but we didn't.
Craig (he/him):That wasn't a thing for us. You loved the kids, you taught well, you were present and you went hard, like that was what mattered to us, and so when I talked more about my body dysmorphia, as in, I also talked about the spectrum of of emotions that I had that were correlated around masculinity, femininity and just my comfortability with my trans friends I talked a little bit about that in conversation. It was very empowering to hear back from a parent that, even though I never said I was gay or queer, that there was a sense of acceptance and that they kept moving. It was like okay, and they moved forward. And so Now that I'm hearing this more often from people who I worked with even though I never said it, I had the banners. I was a great advocate for young people who happen to be queer or trans. I didn't know that, people knew, and now I'm knowing like huh, y'all do know, y'all did know, okay, and the world wasn't what I thought it was.
Bryan (he/they):So I think that's interesting. In a little bit we'll get into a conversation about authenticity, but there's something to be said about levels of authenticity and I think that, just showing up as yourself, you don't have to have every conversation for people to understand who the real you is and who the full you is. It doesn't have to be a conversation, it doesn't have to necessarily be like you know the rainbow sequence jumpsuit. It can just be being yourself and behaving the way that you behave in the professional setting that you're in and any requirements that that has, and people can still see and have insight into who you are. Um, so I I love that, because your perception was I'm not going to be accepted. And then this whole time they had accepted you and also supported you, not necessarily in your queer journey, but like we don't care. That is not a that is not a factor in our decision to support you as an educator because you're doing the right things by our children right I agree, yeah, I agree and then you moved into administration.
Bryan (he/they):Have you ever, either in an administrative or an educated role, had to deal with any anti-queer behavior?
Craig (he/him):Absolutely. I had to deal with it as a teacher, dealt with it as a student, and so I'm going to pull from a yandla not on my watch, if anyone knows what.
Craig (he/him):I'm saying you just Google her. You're like, not on my watch. And I was a very big. I was a very big champion for making sure that every young person who I served and the adults around them that we were that's not. That's not who we are. It's not what we do, not in our house and not in our family. My classroom was my family. This is what we do in our family.
Craig (he/him):Like us or not, there are going to be some tough moments. This is your brothers and sisters. This is your cousins. We're going to do what we do, but we operate in love and when folks are saying things that are mean and demonstrative and you are in some ways trying to dehumanize your peer, your classmate, we're going to call you in and explore why are you saying these things? What's the root cause to this? And you find out that hurt young people are hurting other young people because they're being socialized in conditions by other caregivers and cousins and other role models outside of the school and you're constantly navigating that because you have parents, you have caregivers, you have folks in the community who are like this is what a man is supposed to look like, this is how he's supposed to show up. You need to man up.
Craig (he/him):And so I remember I had to stop, like I paused at some moment when I was like why do I keep using this word man up? And so I remember I had to stop. I paused at some moment when I was like why do I keep using this word man up when I'm like, well, what does that mean? And having to really unpack that for myself. It was projected onto me Be a man, well, what does that mean? And so it took a conversation. It was a conversation and I can't remember I've done so many events. I don't know if it was like I did a black boy at camp or whether or not I did a workshop or something, but I remember having people to unpack what it means to be a man.
Craig (he/him):And I got to a question of so what I'm hearing you say is you want a man to be emotionally tough, emotionally intelligent, you want him to be responsible and take care of his family and do these things, but you don't want him to actually engage in emotional intelligence. And they were like what do you mean? So you don't want him to nurture children, your children, because what you're telling him is that you want him to man up so he shouldn't cry. Is that what you're telling your baby boy? And you could see the. It was a workshop I was doing and you could see the parent like what are you saying? Are you saying something about me? I'm like nope, nope, we're going to stay with this.
Craig (he/him):This is not a judgment on you as a person, as a human being. I'm judging the statement coming out your mouth. Let's unpack it. Are you saying you don't want your child, who is a male child, to actually tap into his emotional intelligences and be a nurturing, caring person? You don't want him to spend time better understanding who he has hurt and his demonstration is tears, and tears show up for many different ways. So are you saying that you don't want him to emote actual feelings?
Craig (he/him):And so you have people who are like whoa, whoa, and even for me, I had to roll back. I'm like so I can't, that has to die. That man up term has to die, even for myself, because it was harming me. And so, yeah, I mean you, you can ask anybody. They know, like I don't play, I don't play. And then I, and that is what is been carried out, no matter where I've been, I'm like you can't say the secret. You can't say it in dark. And if you tell me, you know what's going to happen. We're going to uproot why you're saying what you're saying, and there are some parents who got upset with me.
Craig (he/him):Mrs Martin, I don't understand what's the problem. Why are you giving him this consequence? Because he used these words? I'm like, if he uses the F word, then yes, that is a problem. I take offense to it. I take offense to it for every human being who knows that it is a word that is demonstrative. That is not what we're going to do to our young men. We're not going to call. You know, using the P word, you know we're not going to do that. And yeah, I will call people to the carpet at any point and we'll see what happens.
Bryan (he/they):So it's been interesting. Man up is one of those phrases that has always just like, it's like nails on a chalkboard for me. When I hear it, it just makes me so uncomfortable because, like you, I just sit here and I heard it for so many years and had to figure out, like, and I heard it for so many years and had to figure out, like I'm not sure what that means, and all the things that it means are not necessarily things that I want to associate with. I want to be loving and caring, and if man up means that I can't show my emotions, or if the only emotion I can show is anger, I don't want that. That's not, that's not good. And if it only means being strong all the time but not being vulnerable, like that, that's not for me. So I love that you kind of provided a space to unpack that, because there's so much unpacking that we need to do, just as people from, like generational trauma and passing things down and passing things down. That would be helpful.
Bryan (he/they):I um lit up the comments section today of of a of a post on facebook because it was talking about uh, slang in the classroom and and a bunch of people who identify, like self-identify as very liberal. People were talking about how my opinion on how banning slang from a classroom could create a hindrance for education and for a child to learn, because you need the code switching, you need to help use the language of the students in order to help them understand academic language. I also cycle back to the fact that standard English doesn't exist. But in doing all this I'm unpacking things, going like y'all. If you just unpack why you feel so strongly about this, you're going to get to racism Like you really are.
Bryan (he/they):If you don't sit and think about why you feel so strongly about something, you're doing yourself and kind of society a disservice. So I love that you found this place to unpack something that's really like it's a staple in so many societies like I think about my son. My children are adopted and my older three kids are Mexican-American and so he came to us with a lot of like machismo and that machismo Mexican attitude is the very same man up, be tough, don't, don't show emotions, you can't ask for help like all of these things that I'm just like. Those aren't, those aren't good traits in a person. You know, yes, you're male identifying, but you're also like a human being and there are other things that you have to have in order to really thrive in life. Yeah, so kudos to you for doing like a parent presentation on that. I can't imagine those faces, um, when you started unpacking that, the anger that probably rose up because it it puts them in a position of vulnerability that they didn't anticipate walking into.
Craig (he/him):When you have people come in so I was doing a presentation on Black males and Black boys and how to educate them and nurture them and so you have people who have this playbook that they've been operating under that felt comfortable to them, because they're like yes, I understand that I'm a mom and I am trying to understand my male child and there is no father figure or the father figure is not as present, and so I have to represent these ideals and I have to nurture these particular behaviors or experiences with this young person. And I'm mocking or I'm building off of what I saw from someone else. And so when you tell someone that you have to now do a different thing from the thing you've come to do and know as what you thought was true and I'm challenging you on that so then that puts you in a place of vulnerability and you know Brene Brown talks to us about that a great deal and it's just about self-compassion and empathy for yourself and allowing some things that you know are harmful to die. Some things have to die in order to experience new life. If you want new life, connection, healing. You want a restoration in your relationship with yourself as well as others. There are things that have to die. They cannot exist and also have you evolve as a human being. It just it does. The paradox, I know, is tough to hold, but we can't do that and also be well.
Craig (he/him):And for men, especially men of color, we're killing ourselves hypertension, stress on many levels, and I mean men period. And now we're seeing more of our young boys and male, male children or male, you know, male identified young, young people, as well as adults, are finding themselves committing suicide, Are engaged in more demonstrative or harmful behaviors and actions and self-medicating with several substances that are killing them. And so that also speaks to the fact that you know the patriarchy that we thought was just so awesome and that's the North Star. Even they ain't happy. So like, let's emote, let's tap into our vulnerability, our emotional intelligence. Let's have the conversations.
Craig (he/him):I'd rather someone be alive and act out until we can figure out how to help you. Let's figure out how did your heart get here and then let me stand in it with you until we get to let, because you're in a valley moment right now. Let's get you to the mountain, and I know it feels tough. This is a place you don't want to be. I'm going to stand in it with you.
Craig (he/him):I will personally stand in with you while you navigate the toughness, the shadows and do the shadow work and body work you need in order to be a better human being, Because I believe you belong, I believe you exist for a reason, you matter, and we're going to fight for you to feel the same thing that I believe strongly, only because you should carry it yourself. But sometimes you need help and I think that that's what we do as teachers. We help them to see a new reality, a new possibility. We help them to break the glass ceilings in their minds, hearts and spirits, to know you can achieve the impossible. And that's not fluff, it's not a really cute thing on Disney. That's real life in my eyes.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, I don't know how to follow up on that. There's something that you said. It reminded me of another Brene Brown talk that talks about empathy versus sympathy, and there's a cartoon that was created for it where this like a person is in a room, there's a ladder going up to a hole, and the sympathy person was like, oh man, it sucks that you're down there. You should like just use this ladder and come out. And then the empathy person was like, oh, okay, I'm gonna come sit down here with you until you're ready to come out, um. And that it just came to me, the visual of it.
Bryan (he/they):When you're talking about I'm going to, I'm going to be here in this valley with you and we're going to, you know, we're going to do it together, and I think that so many people right now they need that kind of person to sit with them, and I think that, despite all the praises that we have given both of us of the technological world that we were comfortable with, I think that there needs to be more of this. I'm willing to stand with you right here, right now, in this physical moment, and those conversations aren't very comfortable, especially, um, having teenage children, uh, and working with teenage children that I've, um, I've seen how there are children having those conversations that they're going to sit with their friends and get them through the emotional nights uh, the night where they're, you know, having suicidal ideation, and that's a lot of responsibility for a 16-year-old and there needed to be an adult in any of those situations that could step up and sit in that space. Recording in progress. Recording stopped.
Craig (he/him):This business. Sorry, I got several things coming up. I apologize.
Bryan (he/they):You're good, so I want to ask you we'll get back to our conversation about authenticity If you've got a new teacher going into the classroom and they're unsure whether or not they can be their authentic self, what kind of advice would you give them for that first year?
Craig (he/him):I'm thinking about this deeply because I just did a whole international conference about this and there were some things that I'm still ruminating on as new learnings or new ideas that I'm thinking about. But for new teachers who are in this work and we talk about authenticity, one you have to be very clear about where you stand with yourself, because, first, it's about you and it's tough as a new teacher, because you're learning a new curriculum. You're learning a new curriculum, you're connecting with new colleagues, you're trying to understand the school culture, you're trying to understand your boss and managers and parents and all Like there's a lot to do. You have to be clear about who you are, your why and what would it and why you continue to walk the walk, talk the talk and do the things like you have to understand, like you have to own that talk and do the things like you have to understand, like you have to own that. Secondly, I think that it is also important for you to integrate those values into your class norms, your expectations, the environmental print that you know is around. You know what's in your library, where are you tapping into your inspiration around some of the figures that you want to be represented Like every you know well for some communities you have some autonomy to pick. You know what you put before young people and some there's a little bit more script to you, know your your experience, but you have opportunities in small ways to let young people know what you value.
Craig (he/him):Now I think about small things like I have my little water. You know my water container and if I have stickers on there, well, whatever stickers are on there represent what I value and that is something that's in the public square. They see you drinking from it. It could be that simple. They could also see that this is a book that you're reading and has particular characters that may have intersections of LGBTQ or queer and trans stories or gender nonconforming stories. It could be that in some of the community service work, you pick who you're going to provide service to and know that that's a thing.
Craig (he/him):But for new teachers who are trying to navigate newness in many ways, authenticity for me means being clear about your values, and that shows up in what you say, how you set up norms and expectations and how you course correct behaviors that are anti-community. In regards to how you co-create it, additionally, I think it's important for you to have conversations with your colleagues and teams and understand where is your leader stand in regards to these values? Because if you're in an organization where you carry anti-racist values and work and you believe in Black Lives Matter principles that have queer affirming that's one of the values, but that is not something that your leader values Then you have to make a decision. Okay, how long can I stay here? Employment is important these days, but how important is it to stay there?
Craig (he/him):And then, who are your colleagues? Where's your support? Where are your allies? Where's your Avenger squad? When you're navigating the toughness of those things, who do you? Who do you lean on so that if you have questions, cause you don't understand, uh, you know a student's experience or parents experience and you're trying to figure out how to better support them. Like, who are the people in your community? Uh, and I'm not just talking about physical community, because we have digital communities we can access as well, so that you can actually get the support you need. So that's some of the things I think about as like, here's the base foundation. If nothing else, you know that you could start with.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely. I love that. I think that there's so much to be said about the things you were talking about, specifically with regard to like knowing where your boss stands, where the administration stands, and then knowing how to find your Avengers squad, because, whether you're going to a new school or this is your very first year teaching ever, it could be very easy for that first year to feel very lonely. Yeah, so knowing your squad, knowing who you can go to for support, is necessary.
Craig (he/him):With that in mind, what do you think that the general school community this could be like parents, teachers, students, school community can do to be of more support to the LGBTQ plus community? So one of the misnomers that people are in America because of all of the anti-LGBTQ legislation that we see every day and it's scary, don't get me wrong. But, if you are glad, did some really great research to understand that, like 80% of Americans actually are very supportive of the queer and trans community. Around 70% of parents and caregivers are comfortable with their children having access or seeing queer and trans imagery on TV and in media and things like that. So we have a higher percentage of people across America that actually are supportive. So that's a misnomer that there's just 50% of the world doesn't support, advocate for quit. That's not true. But we don't see these numbers out in the atmosphere often enough.
Craig (he/him):Today it just talked about Oklahoma, so just understand that. Secondly, you have to embrace your humanity. I continue to make mistakes and I fail often in regards to misgenerating someone who really great friend, who today you know they're, they were Gina. Tomorrow their gym, you know and not and I not know that something has happened. So understand that as you continue to fumble on understanding someone's identity, their journey, um, that if you are, if you're operating in love, um, then I think people will receive you, our kids will love you for it. And so just knowing that, if you just say, hey, look, I apologize, and you work to not do the thing that you did before, again, I think that people will receive you with grace.
Craig (he/him):Additionally, I understand that some of my, some of our colleagues across this nation are trying to figure this out, and there's much more restriction. There are a lot more laws and things like that that make it very scary. So what has happened is there's a paralysis that we're dealing with. People don't know. They don't know because if this has happened in Oklahoma, oh, now this is in Iowa, oh, there's this going on in Utah. When is it going to come to us? Is it going to happen to us?
Craig (he/him):And it's like well, this, again, is where you have to be clear on where your leader stands, and you also have to be clear that, ok, we're going to make sure our policies are very affirming and inclusive. I'm going to be on the school board and school committee and I'm not doing it by myself, I'm bringing a friend, so two of us are going to fight to make sure we're in places where this is our values and we're going to shift the atmosphere. And that's all part of some of the big work, because what we're seeing is a lot of this anti-anything is about people knowing the rules and creating rules and laws, and you have to say, hey, I'm going to be bold enough, strong enough, I'm going to champion this thing from the heels and I'm going to be in front of whoever I need to to tell the stories, tell the testimony and do the things that need to be done. I'm going to be there to create the policy or balk at the policies that are actually harmful.
Craig (he/him):But that means that you also have to embrace that you may lose things. You may lose friends, you may lose status, you may lose your job because that's what you believe, and you have to also recognize you will be OK because it will be well in your soul to know you are standing on the right side of history. But that's tough when you are like this is my income, I got all these variables that are in place and if I do this, I might lose these things. Something tells me that if you do lose it, that you will get something that's greater. I've never lost and not gained something that was absolutely, immensely amazing, and I didn't even know it was coming. I just thought I did this thing, I lost these people I thought were important, and I learned that that wasn't the case, honey.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, absolutely. And my little plug for all the people out there is one make sure you vote in your local elections. And two, if you can, if you can, if you're in a position to be able to run for office or join a committee, join the PTO or whatever organization is on your school's campus, because it's really those voices that have the most power right now. At this point in the interview, I'm going to turn the mic over to you and you get to ask me a question, so take it away, Craig.
Craig (he/him):Yeah. So you know the question I'm curious about. You know whether or not it's, you know, netflix or might hit the big screen for Hollywood. I'm curious what would be your show. So I'll be curious about you know what would be the name of the show or movie or film or documentary that you would be the star of and who would play you?
Bryan (he/they):Oh, I love that. Well, I've done a cabaret show about my life when I lived in San Diego and it was called that's BS, because my initials are BS, and so I think I would probably keep that title because I love it. Who would play me? Only because I have a severe crush on him Russell Toney. Um, right, like, if I can have anybody playing me, I'm going to have Russell Toney play me. Um, why not? Why not, right? Um, but it's funny because for so many years I've talked to my husband like I should write a play or I should write this thing about our life and whatnot.
Bryan (he/they):We were the first people in san diego to be married when it became legal. Um, we adopted children. You know, we've gone through all these things. We've we've run the gamut of being in the south. I was teacher of the year for a school district. I read anti-queer behavior. We're in new york city now. Like it's a whole, like it's a mini series, I think. Um, but those would be my thing. I thought that my title was so witty when I did that cabaret show, so I'd stick with that. And then, uh, russellbey man, because, hey, love it Honestly, why not? Before we wrap up, I'd love for people to find out where to connect with you for your consulting, if they need to consult or have you consult with their school. So how can they reach you?
Craig (he/him):You're too kind. Thank you so much for inviting me to your platform. Oh, you're too kind. Thank you so much for inviting me to your platform. It's such an honor. I say on, people can find me by going to, let's see, instagram, I am Craig Aaron's Martin, that's what it is. And on Twitter, I'm Craig C Martin, 12. But I do have my company website as well, at CCM Ed Group, and where else am I? And LinkedIn I'm Craig C Martin. So I think those are the places where people find me most often. And if you just email me, hey, let's have a conversation, let's have a coffee, let's see what we can stir up. Good trouble is always a welcome thing.
Bryan (he/they):Good trouble. I've been thinking about that for so long in our conversation, so I'm glad it finally got spoken out loud. Hey, thank you so much for your time. I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes so that people can connect directly with you, and I really appreciate that you spent your evening with me. I know you've got lots of things going on, so I appreciate that you spent your evening with me. I know you've got lots of things going on, so I appreciate that you shared your time with me.
Craig (he/him):I appreciate you doing the same, because you booked it busy as well.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely All right. Folks at home, have a great day. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it If you did make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.