Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 37
Have you ever found yourself searching for a beacon of authenticity in the ever-evolving world of queer education? This week, I'm joined by the insightful Kirsten Jenna Lee (her/they), founder of Queer Connect and a digital marketing lecturer, to illuminate the paths of 2SLGBTQ+ educators. Settle in as we share our own encounters with identity, the impact of language on the queer narrative, and Kirsten's inspiring shift from food journalism to the academic sphere. Our conversation is a vibrant tapestry of personal growth and the subtle, yet powerful ways educators can validate and celebrate queer identities.
Navigating the terrain of queer spaces can be akin to traversing two worlds within the same country – especially in South Africa, where the landscape varies drastically between conservative regions and the open arms of Cape Town. Kirsten and I peel back the layers of this dichotomy, discussing the vital need for non-alcoholic queer venues and the cultivation of safe spaces for the arts. We traverse the complexities of authenticity in both public and private spheres and the creation of sanctuaries that foster connection and self-expression, sober or otherwise.
The final thread of our rich dialogue weaves through the experiences of queer educators in schools. With anecdotes and strategies, we unpack the importance of inclusivity, from pronoun visibility to the formation of support groups. Kirsten's perspective brings to light the diversity of challenges faced in conservative and liberal settings alike, and the innovative ways that educators can become beacons of change. By the end of this episode, you'll grasp the transformative power of visible allyship and the steps we can take to ensure every classroom is a place where 2SLGBTQ+ students and teachers alike can thrive unapologetically.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer, Season 2, Episode 37
Have you ever found yourself searching for a beacon of authenticity in the ever-evolving world of queer education? This week, I'm joined by the insightful Kirsten Jenna Lee (her/they), founder of Queer Connect and a digital marketing lecturer, to illuminate the paths of 2SLGBTQ+ educators. Settle in as we share our own encounters with identity, the impact of language on the queer narrative, and Kirsten's inspiring shift from food journalism to the academic sphere. Our conversation is a vibrant tapestry of personal growth and the subtle, yet powerful ways educators can validate and celebrate queer identities.
Navigating the terrain of queer spaces can be akin to traversing two worlds within the same country – especially in South Africa, where the landscape varies drastically between conservative regions and the open arms of Cape Town. Kirsten and I peel back the layers of this dichotomy, discussing the vital need for non-alcoholic queer venues and the cultivation of safe spaces for the arts. We traverse the complexities of authenticity in both public and private spheres and the creation of sanctuaries that foster connection and self-expression, sober or otherwise.
The final thread of our rich dialogue weaves through the experiences of queer educators in schools. With anecdotes and strategies, we unpack the importance of inclusivity, from pronoun visibility to the formation of support groups. Kirsten's perspective brings to light the diversity of challenges faced in conservative and liberal settings alike, and the innovative ways that educators can become beacons of change. By the end of this episode, you'll grasp the transformative power of visible allyship and the steps we can take to ensure every classroom is a place where 2SLGBTQ+ students and teachers alike can thrive unapologetically.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. I am your host, Bryan Stanton. My pronouns are he/ they. I'm so excited to have joining me from South Africa teacher Kirsten Jenna Lee. Hi, kirsten, how are you doing?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Hello, hello, I'm fantastic. Thanks, and yourself.
Bryan (he/they):I'm doing wonderful today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, of course, my name is Kirsten and I use her/they pronouns. I'm non-binary, identifies, pansexual and I am a lecturer. I lecture in digital marketing mostly, and absolutely love it. I've started a little queer group for queer youth and we call it queer connect. We have a few students that join us, very small, but it is still great nonetheless.
Bryan (he/they):And yeah, I mean, I've been in teaching for about four years now, but before that I was a food journalist and that was a lot of fun, but I found my passion and my ikigai, which I love that and I feel like the transition from like food journalist to like digital marketing lecturer seems on point right, because it's like a little bit of you know uh, being a foodie and being a someone who takes in food blogs and whatnot. I can see how that can really lend itself to then going on and lecturing yeah, no, absolutely.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):I mean it definitely does help in the marketing space, because at least I know how to market food so I can teach people how to market themselves, I suppose. But no, it's definitely, it's an incredible shift, but I absolutely love that shift. It's been so amazing.
Bryan (he/they):I love that. So let's take a journey back in time and talk a little bit about what life was like for you growing up as a queer youth.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, absolutely. So I knew I was queer from seven years old, so I was quite a baby, but I only really accepted it myself when I was about 16. And I didn't come out. Then I kind of came out to myself and I didn't come out. Then I kind of came out to myself, but I think I only came out when I was about 23. So that was quite interesting. It was quite a journey.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):But when I was a lot younger it it sort of was an experience where I was just noticing what people were like around me and I had a lot of queer friends in school and didn't really realize as one does. You know, we have that queer circle and then suddenly, as you grow older and everyone starts to come out, you're like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, I mean I had that kind of situation growing up and it was difficult in the sense that I did come from a fairly conservative household. But once I did come out I realized how accepting everyone was and that was amazing. Um, I'm so fortunate in that I know a lot of people who don't have that situation. So, um, yeah, I mean it was.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):It was something that was very interesting for me, um, but yeah, growing up it was a challenge, especially being in South Africa. South Africa is fairly conservative, so it was definitely a bit difficult understanding that queer environment and we didn't have the language. I mean, we didn't have the identifiers we just kind of had, like bisexual and gay and that was it and um, we just didn't know how to identify ourselves. And I mean, I, when I came out um to myself at 16, I was like, okay, I'm bisexual, um, but I didn't really realize how far that went, and only when I eventually did come out later on, I only then really identified myself as Pan and understood what that actually meant. And it was such a beautiful transition as well, really developing into who I was and understanding a bit more about myself.
Bryan (he/they):So, yeah, that was essentially my yeah, I feel like that parallels with so many people that I know, especially like if you're, you know, at home or on your walk and you're listening, maybe raise your hand just a little to yourself. But if you had to come out to yourself after realizing 10 years ago that something was different and then 10 years passed and you're like I came out to myself, just raise your hand, you know you know we're all in it together in that sense, like we have to have that moment of reckoning with ourselves before we tell everybody else Right, yeah?
Bryan (he/they):And I think what's so interesting is so many people that I've talked to have that same kind of experience when it comes to language. Because, you're right, when I was younger it was gay and I mean it was honestly like gay, male and straight, and then in the late 90s lesbian became more like known and then bisexuality kind of appeared. And I love the evolution of language and I love I honestly am one that is like I don't care how long the acronym gets, I'm going to accept everybody and all the new words that are coming at me because I'm just like you know what. This is amazing, that we can identify these little spaces within ourselves. So same thing, like I didn't really encapsulate the term queer until I was older, because that's how I identify my non-binary elements of myself.
Bryan (he/they):I don't really identify as non-binary so much as I'm queer. I like the term queer because it's apart from, like it's apart from everything. I'm a little bit apart from everything and so I think that the evolution of the language is just so important, especially for those of us who kind of had to wait for the language to come, for us to get more knowledge about ourselves. And who knows what's going to happen in the next 20 years. You know, we could have the same conversation in 20 years and have new identifiers, and I'm here for it, you know.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, no, exactly. I mean I think about being non-binary and how, initially, when I first kind of discovered that I was, or at least explored myself and realized that I was, it actually came from a Gen Z student that I had and that was very surprising for me, because this student obviously identified as non-binary and I mean, I'd heard the term but I hadn't really seen it in action. And then this student was just like, okay, I use they, them pronouns, and this is how I identify. And then obviously we respected that in class. And then my students asked me how I identify and I was like, oh, my goodness, so that was, that was really interesting.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):And then, only like I think a year or so later, I realized that I was non-binary and I just I felt like I really identified with this student and I was like I just relate to you on such a deep level and I don't know why. And I found that even growing up with like my queer friends, especially the ones who are out and proud, I was like why do I identify so much with you? Where does this come from? So I mean, yeah, that was, that was something that just was really interesting to know growing up.
Bryan (he/they):I love that because it's like little pieces of you are reflecting from the people that you're around and that you're surrounding yourself with and that can be so eye-opening. I mean, if you really do look at the people you surround yourself with, you're going to find bits and pieces of your personality and who you are and every person you interact with.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Absolutely yeah.
Bryan (he/they):So it's funny, I guessed a few episodes ago as a seasoned guest I like the term seasons as opposed to when people are like old but this is a seasoned guest and that person was like Nope, I don, I still don't know what my identifiers are. I couldn't tell you right now. I use these pronouns but is it right? I don't know. I don't know if it's right and that's the fun part is it's like it's a journey and I think that's the part that everybody needs to kind of get on board with is that you're going to keep growing and you need to keep growing in who you are as a person.
Bryan (he/they):It's not just gonna be one answer, because I definitely, you know, went what the route that was similar to yours was like, okay, I'm bisexual and then I was gay and now I'm like, okay, I'm a, I'm queer, with a little like pansexuality worked in there and like it's evolving. And I'm curious about your journey, especially as a youth and and in your early twenties, as you're kind of coming to terms with, with your identity. How does you know South Africa's conservative nature kind of play into that and what was the reality like for you?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, so I was quite fortunate when I did come out. I was living in the UK at the time and I felt very safe to come out, but I shortly thereafter moved back to South Africa and for me that was just a bit of a stark reality. So I grew up in a fairly small town and coming back to that, I realized that I actually couldn't be my authentic self, and even something like wearing bright, colorful clothing was frowned upon and I mean, that is me.
Bryan (he/they):Wow, that's a whole extra level of conservatism. You can wear gray.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):a whole extra level of conservatism like you can wear gray, yeah, so, um, it was. It was just difficult because suddenly now I had people around me like old friends and, um, people from high school, and they, they all were like moving on with their lives, you know, they're getting married, having kids, kind of thing, and they hadn't even been exposed to this. And suddenly now, like I come on board and it's like, oh, this strange human is taking over our space. So when I initially came back, I came back to the town Durban well, it's actually a city, but I like to think of it as a town and, yeah, I couldn't be my authentic self. I felt unsafe to do so. I had to kind of tone a lot of what I dressed down and especially going in public places, and I could not openly say anything about my identity. But I only spent about two weeks there and then I moved to Cape Town, which is known as the queer capital of South Africarica.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Um, great love that, yep, yep, it is. It is amazing and it is a lot more accepting, which is huge. It is so huge, but it is still in africa and, um, there are still lots of people that are not accepting. So so, for example, we had a rainbow crossing near my work so, yeah, just like a rainbow pedestrian crossing and essentially there was a local political party that wanted to throw black paint on it and we had a whole situation around it. There was a local drag queen that walked across it, created this whole publicity stunt and then all the public were like banding together and trying to get behind it and obviously it didn't happen.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):So, amazing, but it was really scary to think that in the queer capital of South Africa, something like that could happen. And I mean, it is the queer capital of SA, but I think we have, like, in total, like three drag queens. So that, yeah, that is really surprising. And but I mean, in terms of queer spaces, there actually are more and more coming out every day, and there recently has been a new bar that's opened, but, um, the only thing is there's not a lot of like alcohol free queer spaces. It's mostly revolving around alcohol.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, Honestly, and I feel that here too, and it's funny because I understand queer history and that bars that were kind of like speakeasies, where you had back or backroom areas where you were safe to be yourself, closed. You were behind closed doors, you're safe to be yourself. Those kind of spaces were necessary for such a long time for people to feel safe and I totally respect that. But now, as we grow and people are okay to be themselves more publicly, I would love more queer spaces that didn't circle around alcohol, because I think that's really hard because also, like if you're going to try to meet friends or you're going places to try to engage with your community one, it's hard to engage with people when you're drinking because you're not fully engaged anymore. The alcohol is kind of filtered into your brain. And so having some more spaces that are sober spaces for queer people, I think, around the world, let's start that movement. I would love to see that.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Absolutely. And I think, like for me it starts off with the queer craft community. I feel like that is a thing, and I mean just having these like crafty spaces where you can get all artsy, and I think that would be a good start, um, at least you know, to get people together. But I mean, yeah, it's, it's difficult. It really is, um, because so much of our interaction with each other does revolve around alcohol. And I mean, I know personally so many queer friends of mine who are sober and they feel like they can't go to these spaces and they feel like they can't feel safe in these spaces or exist in these spaces because it just revolves around alcohol. So then they don't have their own safe space for themselves, which is really troubling.
Bryan (he/they):I think that's especially hard for people who had previously struggled with alcohol addiction, because it's like these activators are all around you and it's like at any point you could go down a path you don't want to go down, just because it's available, and so I absolutely agree with you that many sober folks aren't going to feel comfortable in these spaces, and so then there's an entire part of the community we're excluding, right, because we're not providing spaces that are accessible to everybody.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, no, exactly, and I mean, luckily there are a few, um, I would say, like events that happen around cape town that don't necessarily revolve around alcohol or mainly revolve around live music, which is actually it's something, it's a step in the right direction and that's good.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Um, with these, yeah, with these events, they like just to give you a bit of a picture of the whole situation. They still tell us to be safe in terms of how we actually get there and making sure that we are dressing accordingly, and obviously these are very open spaces when we're in the spaces and we feel like we can be our authentic selves. But then, hopping in an Uber to get there, you've got to tone it down and I mean, that's actually where I find the most conservative places that we can exist in, and that's simply in an uber, um, because a lot of the drivers are from international countries or from all over africa. I mean, we've got a lot of ugandan drivers, um, and that can be very, very difficult, so you feel like you can't even be yourself in an uber, which is it is kind of terrifying.
Bryan (he/they):I think that's got to be terrifying, especially, I think, being in a neighbor country or a country that's neighbor to new laws being passed, or rather old laws being reinforced that basically allow for the death and promote the death of queer people. So I think that it's so important and, no matter where you are, you kind of have to deal with that. I was in an Uber recently that had religious radio on and I'm just listening to like sermon as I'm going through it and I'm just like I don't know like I I respect everybody to have the right to their religion. I don't know if I feel comfortable in the space because I don't know what your response would be to me about what my beliefs are and what my life is like. You know, and even though these people are providing a service, ultimately you're in their private property. They own this vehicle that you're in, so it is a very tricky situation.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, no, it definitely is. And I mean it's like the religious radio thing. I've also experienced that and it's like just about every second Uber driver and yeah, like everyone's free to have their own religion, like. Nothing against that. But I feel like it's a bit of an invasion of the space because you're like I don't know how you're going to react to me and I don't know if I can be myself, and then you get the funny looks and it's like oh, don't quite know what to do here. So, yeah, it's a tricky scenario to navigate.
Bryan (he/they):Yep, one of my favorite book series is called A Discovery of Witches and something that you're describing. This woman is a witch and she has lots of power and it makes her glow. She's so powerful that people can see like she's glowing and so she has to put on like this dampening coat that basically makes her go from like bright and colorful to like sepia tones, and I just feel like your description of how you have to live your day-to-day life is a lot like that. So for anybody who likes discovery of witches, that's the image that came to mind for me, and that is horrifying, because no one should have to dampen who they are just to walk through a space or get from one space to another. So, when it comes to being an educator, how does all this impact your ability to teach your students and to work with queer students in your spaces?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):So it is. It is absolutely amazing, and I mean why I kind of start with that is that the institution that I work for is supremely open and welcoming is that the institution that I work for is supremely open and welcoming and they're a fairly big institution in terms of private education, so they have their own rules, they can do their own thing and we have such a large group of queer students and being able to be yourself and show that to them makes them feel like they can be themselves and like, for example, example, I start every class, when I kind of start a new year, I say to them listen, this is a safe space, this is a space to be authentically you, and I obviously start off by introducing my pronouns. I don't really go into sexuality because time and place, but I at least start off my pronouns and, for example, I ask them not to call me ma'am still get the odd ma'am because, again, conservative but I try to ask them to call me mix and they do and they really do respect that. But I love that I can be myself and it gives them an inspiration to be themselves and I think that's the most important thing for me. And then, of course, going with that. You have so many students that come out to you and they come and seek any sort of guidance as possible just to understand what life is like, navigating it as a queer person, and when they see someone who's in their late twenties living their life and being their authentic self, they think it is possible for me to do the same and I think that is just a beautiful thing.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):And, yes, it is just a classroom, but for me it means so much more. It is still a safe space. It's a safe space to be yourself more. It is still a safe space. It's a safe space to be yourself, and I like to actually create that for my students. But, of course, like with the institution that I work for, we don't have like pronouns in our subject line, not in our subject lines, in our email signatures, but I purposefully do that and I think the students can respect that, they enjoy that and they know that at least I'm being open about it, which means that they can be. And I think the students can respect that, they enjoy that and they know that at least I'm being open about it, which means that they can be. I think that's really encouraging for them, or at least hopefully.
Bryan (he/they):It's a really small thing that you can do that makes such a huge impact on your students, honestly, and whether it's introducing yourself in front of the class with those pronouns, whether it's including it in your email signature or on your Instagram profile like it's a tiny little thing that you can do, that just says hi, I'm safe and I speak your language. At minimum, even if you're an ally, that's all it's saying. If you are cisgender and your pronouns are he, him or she, her, absolutely throw those pronouns in there and you're just signaling to your students I am safe for you to talk to. Hugely important, so hugely important. Yeah, hugely important, so hugely important. So you said you've got a small kind of like queer group growing now at your campus. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):yeah. So, um, essentially I started it I think it was two years ago, and I mean when I say small, I mean like three people, I think it it does. It does start off small and that is completely okay. And I think a lot of the students again being from like conservative areas, like we have a lot of like hyper religious people around us and in the nearby kind of towns, so a lot of people haven't really accepted themselves and have not come out, so they would feel a bit scared to go into a space where they have to be out but they don't. I mean, one of the students I had was an ally, but she was 100% queer and used these spaces to actually identify herself and understand who she was, which was really special, and just also navigating the type of conversations that you'd have with your parents around queerness and um, like it was. It wasn't really a space to essentially come out to people and um, I mean, it was obviously an authentic space, but it wasn't a space to really shout hey, I'm queer. It was obviously an authentic space, but it wasn't a space to really shout hey, I'm queer. It was more of a space to actually learn more about it and so, for example, every week I came up with different topics and we'd speak about gender, one week being asexual, another week We'd speak about different sexualities. We'd speak about what it's like growing up in South Africa, what it's like looking at the news and any kind of recent event that came about and how this impacted us, and then just essentially me trying to teach them and educate them about as much as I know and then letting them educate me.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):I mean I look at some of my students that came to these meetings and I mean they were. I think one of the students was from another country in Africa and he had come out to his family and it was really intense for him but he was openly himself and he could feel like he could be in Cape Town. But he told me his whole backstory and how difficult it was. And I had another student who had, like her parents, reject her, and then another student that they completely identified as something else entirely. They were, they were asexual and that was like a whole journey for them. So we unpacked what that meant and at the time I had a few asexual friends, so we just looked at the different combinations that you could have and how that could impact your future relationships. So it was just really an open discussion and a really safe space to explore who they are but then also learn more about queerness and learn more about the community.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):But I think the most important thing for me was the fact that there was a community in the first place and I think that just meant a lot to the students and I had students actually thanking me, saying thank you so much for actually having this community there in the first place, because I just needed a space where I could make queer friends, where I could see other queer people and feel like I belong, and I hope that it does grow in the future.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):I mean, this year has been really busy so we haven't quite got it off the ground just yet, but because our semesters are different but I'm hoping for second semester we're going to bring it back with absolute passion and fire guns blazing and hopefully have a few more students join, because I'm just noting, with every year that joins us, with these young gen z's that are just coming out of the woodworks and, um, they are really open and themselves and it is so surprising but so incredible. So I just see so many authentic faces and I just want them to join our group and really feel like they're part of a community in a town or a city that maybe can feel a little bit suffocating at times. So it's just their safe space. And it didn't revolve around alcohol. Most of us had milkshakes, so you know what's in it for us Love that.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):But yeah.
Bryan (he/they):I love so many things about what you just said, because what was really in there was that it's about your students, it's about their journeys and it's personal.
Bryan (he/they):You have one student dealing with one type of situation and you found resources to aid them in their journey.
Bryan (he/they):You had another student who saw reflections of themselves and the people in the group and were able to kind of figure out who they were based off of that, and so providing that space is so essential. Teaching While Queer is actually in the process of becoming a non-profit organization and one of our missions is going to be to help create queer spaces, um, specifically for queer educators, because it's really just like if you have the space, the people will come and you will be able to make an impact, and all it is is how do we make that space? That is the key question how do you make a space that is safe for queer people and our specific mission that is safe for queer educators? So I love that you're making this little space that is safe for your students and I guarantee you keep making that space and it's just gonna grow and grow, especially as Gen Z is like record numbers, identifying, as part of the community, so many bisexual people at the moment, you know, and who knows how much that might change in the future.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Absolutely, absolutely, and I love the kind of fire behind this generation and how much they are really fearless about who they are, and maybe it is only in the university space, but it is still a space where they feel like they can be themselves and fortunately, I work at a creative institution, so it is very much like you can be yourself and yeah, so I think it really does help them feel like they can be authentic and the space allows for that.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):It is a very creative space. There's art all over the walls, there's spray painted graffiti walls everywhere, and I think it just makes them feel like they can be their authentic selves, which is so, so important. But I really do feel for people who are maybe at the bigger universities, where they don't have that kind of creative feel around them, where they can feel like they can be authentic and they may not have a big enough group of people, whereas, because we are so small, um, we actually are seeing a lot of, a lot of people that are identifying as queer even in these small spaces, because they just feel safe to do so and, um, yeah, I think it can be. It can be very challenging at a bigger institution where you don't see as many queer people, especially if it's not a creative space, so definitely very difficult.
Bryan (he/they):Yep, I appreciate that so much Now, thinking about your experience as an educator. Have you ever had to deal with any kind of anti-queer behavior outside of like the general kind of oppressive feel of governmental policy?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Surprisingly not, which has been incredible. Well, actually so in my current institution, though, but I did work for another institution in another smaller town that's also quite conservative, near where I live, and they didn't have any anti-queer sentiment. But they did, for example, ask me to cover up my tattoos. And I know I mean I've got a rainbow tattoo over here and I've got a few other kind of like queer-esque tattoos. So I assumed that they had seen those and that they thought that it was a bit strange for their students and something that they didn't want to expose their students to. So, yeah, they asked me to cover up my tattoos, and naturally I did, but then at that stage I didn't feel safe enough to be my authentic self, so I removed my pronouns from my presentations, I stopped introducing myself as queer, so I just felt like I had to turn it on yet again, which was very frustrating. But I've since quit that job, which is great.
Bryan (he/they):Yes, absolutely. That's kind of like when you have to stop doing the things that make you feel comfortable. I hate those moments. So I'm so pleased that you're now at an institution where you don't have to kind of shield yourself. You kind of advice would you give to a new teacher who is going into the field for the first time and they're just not sure if they're allowed to be authentic?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, I would say, start with the students, because the students tend to be a bit more welcoming and open and understanding about that. And it can be something as simple as mentioning pronouns and I think for me that is like just a really big step and, like you said, like even if you're cisgender and you use traditional pronouns, I think that can be something that just says you know, I'm open to this and I can offer that safe space. You don't have to mention anything about being queer, even if you use traditional cisgender pronouns. That is obviously completely okay. But at least you're just saying, okay, I am opening up this space and I'm allowing you to see that, hey, I accept this and this is something that I do speak about and feel something strongly about. So maybe you can feel warm enough to come to me and speak to me about those things. So that is kind of the first piece of advice I would give queer educators going into those spaces and I think, in terms of like speaking to kind of senior authorities, that can be very difficult, to kind of senior authorities, that can be very difficult and I don't know how much of a safe space that can be, because you don't want to get fired or be put in a situation where you feel like your job is on the line because of how you're identifying and how you're putting yourself forward in class. So it's definitely very difficult. But I would say, start with the students and then start with your close colleagues, see how they kind of feel about the situation, feel it out and just sort of speak to who you are and let them hear you and see how they react and then you can perhaps tell more um.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):So, for example, I I obviously started out like loud and queer coming in, um didn't really, didn't really care about the consequences.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Um, because I thought, oh no, open city, you know, queer capital, absolutely fine.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Um, and I didn't know how my, my bosses would react. And then they obviously realized that I was and I asked them if I could start that group. And then suddenly they became so much more open with me and I started noticing like queer flags come up and um little like queer lego sets they started appearing and then, um, like a lot of really random things that just showed like allyship, or allyship, however you pronounce it, and then I felt like it actually encouraged other staff members to be themselves. And then I saw another staff member who, um, was very openly queer with me, but not with any of the other staff, and then they started putting up a non-binary flag and suddenly there were a lot more colorful things in their office and, um, suddenly there were other queer flags that appeared, and so I felt like I had a bit of a ripple effect, as, yes, as egotistical as that may sound, um, but yeah, I hope that you can be like that starting point for someone else and just open up.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely, and I think that ripple effect is so true, just kind of across the board If you do little things, they will eventually make a big impact. It's like your group it might be small now but it's just going to grow and grow each semester because those students are going to feel that welcoming energy and come and gravitate towards it. Yeah, absolutely, thinking about now educational institutions, educational communities. This is administration. This could be parents, it could be parents, it could be students, it could be teachers, professors. What do you think that the educational community can do to better support queer people?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):I think I mean it. A group is great to do things.
Bryan (he/they):Number one start the group.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah, obviously, this will kind of only be seen by the students, at least initially. So, for example, like with my group, we started out by sharing it with like the student body and then they shared it on their platforms like the student body and then they shared it on their platforms and then the greater authority, the main kind of like instagram account, essentially of the university, started sharing our posters as well, and then obviously that gets to the parents. So it's about again starting small, offering maybe some safe spaces. It's also about chatting to management about it and asking them like can I maybe include my pronouns in my email signature? I mean, maybe just doing that anyway, just kind of like a stuffy to the system and trying to find ways where you can just introduce yourself as your authentic self in those spaces. And it is supremely difficult trying to get you know, like management on board and getting them to kind of understand your sort of completely different world that you experience. But I think, in terms of supporting students and supporting parents and allowing them to world that you experience, but I think in terms of supporting students and supporting parents and allowing them to see that you do have this potentially safer space for queer students. I think it does start by having conversations with people around you, having conversations with management and then maybe talking to the student body, getting them to share certain queer, positive things, and, again, like I said with the previous question, start with the students. That's where it can all kind of come about and I think that can just be a really great place to start that conversation.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):And even if it means that it just kind of stays with the students, at least you know that they feel safe and maybe it will go trickle through to their parents. But then again you just have to start talking to the people around you, start talking to management, asking if this kind of thing is okay, asking ifking, if you can essentially be yourself, if you can share yourself. But then there might be situations where the answer is no, and that is something that is incredibly difficult to deal with, and your choice is like do you want to still stay with this institution or not? But obviously you know it's really tricky in the current economic climate to find a job, so you might choose to stay there in any case. But um, I think when you hear those no's it still goes back to the students. You still got to show them that you are your authentic self and they can feel safe around you. So, um it's. It's definitely something that you can potentially do, but, again, start with the students. That's where it all comes from, yeah.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely. I love that, and I think one of the things that really strikes me about what you said is just start the conversation. And the thing is, right now the world is so divisive that having a difference of opinion means people stop talking to each other. But really it's through those conversations that real work can get done and, as uncomfortable as that might be, just start the conversation. If somebody else ends it, at least you know you started it. It's really it's kind of sad the lack of communication happening right now, but hopefully we can see positive change, as we, you know, continue to evolve. At this point I'm going to pass the microphone over to you and you have the opportunity to ask me a question, so take it away, kirsten.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yeah absolutely Just have a sip of water. Yeah, so I want to know, in let's call it a global North country, how easy is it to feel like you can be your authentic self in education?
Bryan (he/they):So that is really hard and I think that some of the things that you describe about being in South Africa are also very real here in the? U, depending on which state that you live in. When I first started teaching six years ago, I was teaching in Texas and I was asked to dampen things down and to not talk about my identity and things like that. The problem is I am a parent and my children went to that school, so there is no lying about my family, so I just simply said no and kept being myself. But for other people it's not that straightforward. There were people that I worked with who had been closeted for a decade, working at that school, not telling anybody. Other people who only told a handful of people. And then there's other places now where I mean the state of Florida was trying to ban trans teachers from being able to identify as themselves because you're not allowed to say gay or trans quote unquote in Florida. But all of that has since been kind of squashed at a court level. But that squashing is really.
Bryan (he/they):You can talk about it as it pertains to the individuals in your class. You cannot include it in your part of your curriculum unless it's relevant to the person or whatever you're talking about in your curriculum. So what they're saying is basically, you can't create queer curriculum which, for all intents and purposes, does not really exist right now. Most people are getting queer education in graduate school. Some people are getting queer education in undergraduate school. Very few people are getting queer education in like a primary and secondary level.
Bryan (he/they):So this kind of like worry that people have that it's like, oh, they're indoctrinating the children, but in fact there's not enough queer content out there right now for us to do anything of the sort. And the stuff that's out there is like you need to be respectful of somebody else. That is the queer content that's being taught respect other people, which used to be a golden rule. Golden rule right, do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. So it's really a struggle. I'm in New York City now. I work at a university. I am very much myself, but I've always been very much myself because I did not like you, did not care about the. If I were fired for being queer, I would have been a headline ensued. You know what I mean.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):Yes, absolutely Because.
Bryan (he/they):I'm going to be the person that fights against the problem, and so I am privileged and I will state that that I am a white person who has dealt with very few discriminatory behaviors and actions towards me, so I'm in a privileged place that I can say oh, go ahead, fire me, watch what happens. Would that have impacted my family financially? Yes, it would have probably been a huge problem, but I feel comfortable saying that because I haven't had to deal with constant oppression my whole life and I understand that's a privilege that I take as I walk into society. But, to the same token, every person, regardless of who you are, regardless of your gender identity, person, regardless of who you are, regardless of your gender identity uh, sexual orientation, though I really feel like that terminology needs to go out the window. Um, so as we evolve our language, let's like remove sex from the conversation and see how people change. Um, regardless of your race, your ability level, like each of you, deserves to be treated like a human being with an intense purpose, because each of you is a human being with an intense purpose who has the ability to impact the entire world. And so to have someone treat you incorrectly, I will fight for you. I hope that you will fight for yourself and stand up or, you know, push back against this idea that people are allowed to treat you in a certain way, regardless of what the law says, regardless of what you know corporate policy is.
Bryan (he/they):I'm getting really frustrated also because there's a lot of conservative clamp down on social media for educators, like you're not allowed to have a life outside of teaching. Like if you have a social media account and there is a picture of you drinking a margarita, then you are a bad teacher. Like I was at a fourth of july party. Calm down. Teachers are allowed to have lives and this idea that your life has to revolve around you always being the perfect moral example for children is frustrating, because they should also be getting that moral example from their parents and their village, the people around them. The teacher isn't solely responsible for the moral upbringing of your child. So it's a really hard question to answer because there's so many. There's like there's great things.
Bryan (he/they):There are places here where you can absolutely be out and proud and it's fine. There are other places, like I have some guests that live in Portland Oregon or in the Portland Oregon area and that's a very queer space, but they also are dealing with backlash. Los Angeles has even had like conservative people boycotting the Los Angeles school district because of queer people and queer content, and it's like every place that feels like it's truly safe still has lurking in the background this anti-queer behavior, and so I said something in a class recently where it's like, where everything is supposed to be hard lines, it's actually watercolor, and that's really how I feel about this situation as well. Like if you think that this space is 100% safe because it's a very liberal space and whatnot, the lines are actually a little blurry and some people who are not safe are going to be in that space. Who are not safe are going to be in that space. Before we part ways with our audience here, is there anything else, any words of wisdom or anything else?
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):you'd like to share with us, I think. Interestingly, on your points about social media, I think that is a great place to start. Obviously, everyone can have their own space and you can obviously have private accounts. That's completely fine. But if you have a public account, be authentic self in those spaces at least. At the very least put your pronouns out there. And that can just be a start, because students are going to find you, they're going to be looking for you, especially if they love you. So make it as some kind of starting point where you can just say hey, hey, this is me, this is who I am.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):And I think I mean other kind of parting ways, other kind of advice would be you know, truly try and brace who you are, and I know it can be so, so difficult in displaying that wherever you are. And I mean I think about other parts of south africa and how, if you are a queer educator in a place, a small town, um, it can be so difficult to express yourself as your authentic self. But I think it just starts with something small and you just have to be as authentic as you can and hopefully that will grow. Hopefully you will be able to be more of your full self without having to put that that dampening coat on you and hiding that glow, yeah. So, yeah, it's.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):It is just starting out small and growing from there and, even if that means throwing in a couple pronouns into your instagram bio, it's, it's still something and it still proves to people that you are here, that you are you and you are absolutely authentic.
Kirsten Jenna (her/they):And that is so powerful, I think, for a lot of students to see, because they will be looking for you, they will find you and, yes, there may be people who disagree. There will be people who disagree, there will be people who have opinions that are challenging yours, but it's about, like we said earlier, having those conversations and being open-minded, hearing what they have to say and acknowledging that everyone has different upbringings and learned different things and has different learned behavior. So we just have to accept each other and love each other, no matter what, and I think every single religion preaches that. So you can't use religion as anything to get out of, like get out of jail free card. You have to just make sure that you are loving each other and accepting each other as you are, because that is what we should do as human beings.
Bryan (he/they):The takeaway. Here's the line, the tagline for the show you cannot use religion as a get out of jail free card. Put it on a shirt. Wow, I love that so much. Kirsten, thank you so much for spending your evening with me tonight. I really appreciate it, and thank you so much for everybody who is listening at home. Bye. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review, and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.