Teaching While Queer: Advocacy For LGBTQ Folks In Schools & Education To Live & Work As Your Authentic Self
How Staying Silent Hinders LGBTQ Teachers’ Relationships with Students in Schools
Have you ever felt the weight of hiding a part of yourself just to fit in? Join us as Elisa Greb, a middle school English teacher, shares her journey from concealing her queer identity for a decade to embracing it openly in the classroom.
Elisa's story resonates deeply with anyone navigating identity in a professional setting. Her experience highlights the challenges of balancing personal authenticity with professional expectations, a struggle many face in today's evolving societal norms.
In this episode you will:
- Gain insights into the emotional and professional toll of concealing identity in the workplace.
- Understand the impact of LGBTQ+ visibility on student-teacher relationships and classroom dynamics.
- Explore strategies for fostering inclusivity and acceptance in educational environments.
Discover how Elisa's journey can inspire you to create a more inclusive space. Tune in now to hear her powerful story and gain practical tips for promoting LGBTQ+ visibility in your community. Elisa's narrative culminates in "Actually Invisible," a novel that bridges experiences across the queer educator community.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Have you ever felt the weight of hiding a part of yourself just to fit in? Join us as Elisa Greb, a middle school English teacher, shares her journey from concealing her queer identity for a decade to embracing it openly in the classroom.
Elisa's story resonates deeply with anyone navigating identity in a professional setting. Her experience highlights the challenges of balancing personal authenticity with professional expectations, a struggle many face in today's evolving societal norms.
In this episode you will:
- Gain insights into the emotional and professional toll of concealing identity in the workplace.
- Understand the impact of LGBTQ+ visibility on student-teacher relationships and classroom dynamics.
- Explore strategies for fostering inclusivity and acceptance in educational environments.
Discover how Elisa's journey can inspire you to create a more inclusive space. Tune in now to hear her powerful story and gain practical tips for promoting LGBTQ+ visibility in your community. Elisa's narrative culminates in "Actually Invisible," a novel that bridges experiences across the queer educator community.
Follow Teaching While Queer on Instagram at @TeachingWhileQueer.
You can find host, Bryan Stanton, on Instagram.
Support the podcast by becoming a subscriber. For information click here.
The podcast explores the challenges and successes of LGBTQ representation in education, addressing issues such as burnout, tokenism, doxing, and the importance of advocacy in creating inclusive classrooms, safe spaces, and anti-bullying strategies, with a focus on supporting non-binary teachers and gender identity in schools to combat the feeling of isolation and lack of community.
Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia. Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators. I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer. We are almost to the end of our season two and I am so excited to have with me today Elisa Greb. How are you doing Elisa? I am awesome to have with me today Elisa Greb. How are you doing Elisa?
Elisa (she/her):I am awesome, Bryan. How are you?
Bryan (he/they):I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for asking. Do you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?
Elisa (she/her):Sure. So my name is Elisa Greb and I am a middle school English teacher. I started teaching in 2006 and I don't know. I don't know what else to say about that, other than I'm really excited to be here, because I spent the first 10 years or so of my career doing everything possible to not let my students know that I was queer, and this is just a really refreshing experience for me to be able to not only engage with your former guests, like you know, watching videos and listening to what they had to say, but to just be able to create this connection with people in a way that, like for a long time, I was not able to make.
Bryan (he/they):So thank you, oh my gosh, thank you. I mean you just described what my goal is, and this will be announced in social media by the time this episode airs. So I'm I'm felt very comfortable saying it, but we are forming a board of directors to become a nonprofit that actually will support queer educator communities locally, nationally, kind of worldwide, providing resources for educators, specifically for educators, as opposed to doing kind of like paralleled work to GLESNT, which does a lot of work for students. This would be work specifically for the educators, to make sure that you know that you're not alone in this and that there are people here that can support you. So I'm really happy to hear that from you, because it just means that what I set out to do two years ago is impactful, even in small ways, for individual people, and I appreciate that so much. So thank you for sharing, absolutely.
Bryan (he/they):So you spent 10 years not telling students, not telling community, who you were. What was it like for you growing up? Did you already have a sense of self, or did it come later on in life?
Elisa (she/her):Oh yeah, I think I mean I, comparatively speaking, I guess I. I woke up, I shot up in bed, I was 14 years old, I was trying to fall asleep and I remember just going oh no, I'm gay. It was like this, like it just washed over me and I've never been the kind of person to not say something true. And I just from then on, I never denied it, I told everybody and I was very loud and proud as a teenager. But I was also very lonely, because it was the 90s and I was the only one and I went to school.
Elisa (she/her):I grew up in a small town, not like I didn't have a ton of issues with bullying. Certainly, there were kids who said things to me in the hallway and that sort of thing, but it wasn't so much the bullying as it was the loneliness for me, because I had friends and I talked to my friends, but I was never able to truly connect in that way with my peers. Now, of course, since then, a slew of them have come out, but at the time I was the only one willing to talk about it. So yeah, that was hard, it was isolating.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, this is a participation section of the show. Folks, if you grew up in the 90s and you were the only one willing to talk about it for a while, like when I was in high school, by my senior year there were a few other people. Certainly my freshman year there was one other person before his mother ripped us apart from each other. Um, but like if if you were the only person, raise your hand, if you were the only person in your school who was willing to talk about it, it's lonely, lonely it really is, because, I mean, you can have your friends and you can talk about it with your friends, but there's nothing like the connection of talking about it with someone who has a similar experience and knows somewhat what you're going through.
Elisa (she/her):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):Yes, and so how does that inform your work with students? Now you you been teaching. You kind of denied it for 10 years. What was it like to kind of backtrack from being out and proud to oh gosh, I gotta simmer down on this.
Elisa (she/her):Yeah, right, that's. It happened so, so suddenly and so because I it was almost like it's just panic. You know it was in the in the mid 2000s and you know I would say that we at that point hadn't really come very far from the 90s. It was sort of similar and I just didn't have the, I didn't have the confidence in myself yet as a teacher to not be afraid that it would somehow put into question my ability to teach my students. So and and it was like you know, then it just kind of snowballed, like I never talked about it. So then I never talked about it and you know I played the pronoun game when kids would ask me questions and I deflected and I changed the subject and I don't know, I'm sure it's, it's fascinating because it's such a unique experience to those of us who have been through it and it's so hard to put into words because I mean, I was, I was very honest with my colleagues, with my co-workers, everybody was fine and you know it was totally normal and somehow they all respected me and didn't say anything to students either, and it was just.
Elisa (she/her):I don't know it ate away at me because of the queer kids that I had, queer kids that I had, and I felt so guilty not being able to talk about it. But at the same time I was just too, I was too afraid that somebody's parents were going to make an issue of it and I mean, I lost sleep over it. I did, and it really wasn't until right before COVID. Right before COVID was when I kind of really started talking openly about it, and I'm not sure if anybody has brought this up with you, but then during COVID, teaching online, being in everybody's living rooms, I stopped talking about it again Because I thought that if their families are sitting right there, do you know what I mean? And it's not that I never I never get up in front of the classroom like, hello, I'm a lesbian, you know I don't do that, but it's, you know, just a casual mention of my wife or whatever. I just like that. It's just been a roller coaster.
Bryan (he/they):It's been a roller coaster there's a couple of things that you brought up that I think are important to kind of dissect. The first is how natural it can be to have to protect yourself and what really drives me crazy about that. What I think is so wild is that this is a cichette privilege problem, because a person who is cisgender and heterosexual never has to worry about whether or not their relationship with another adult is going to make people question whether or not you are capable of doing your job, of which you are an expert with a degree, and not just a degree, additional training on how to do the job, specific things, yeah, yeah and yeah, I think that there's so many people that need to sit with that for a moment and really think about privilege when it comes to these things, because, like you said, we're not walking in being like, okay, I'm queer and here's how you can be too.
Bryan (he/they):It's like this is my husband and my kids, this is my wife, right? Or I went to dinner with my wife. It's a single word that is so natural to say for so many people, but becomes an issue when it's not a cishet relationship. Um, and so, yeah, for those of you who are allies, take a moment to think about that. Like, when was the last time you had to censor yourself because of the fact that you couldn't talk about your relationship because it would call into question whether or not you were capable of doing your job? Yeah, wild, it's wild, and I want to talk a little bit now.
Bryan (he/they):Then, like you started talking about with your students, you kind of backed off in COVID and I totally get that. You are in everybody's living room, you don't know who's home, you don't know what their family is like, and that I feel like that experience is actually what's led into the micromanaging that's happening with school boards and parenting right now, oh, yeah, that they're like oh, we were in the classroom when they were at home and so we know what was happening, but they don't, because we were all we didn't know what was happening. Like, yeah, we were told to do a job and we just did it. Like, yeah, okay, yeah, we're still figuring it out, right, but but I think that's kind of like trickled into things. So, coming out of COVID, have you been able to open up with your students a little bit more?
Elisa (she/her):Yes, very much, and it was almost like. It was almost like so I didn't talk to them, and then I did a little bit and then COVID made me stop and then I was just kind of angry, like at myself and angry with the world, like like, why, why, why should I have to hide who I am? It was like because I got that little taste before. So then, when we came back, so my, my ultimate goal over the past few years has just been to normalize it. I don't shout it from the rooftops, but I have pictures of my wife and two kids behind my desk, whereas before I would have put the kids and not my wife.
Bryan (he/they):But yeah, right, I did the same thing.
Bryan (he/they):yes, yes, and it's wild because my kids went to school with my students like oh wow, when I first, when I, when I first started, I had a principal who was like you can't talk about things and like I didn't, I didn't. I was like, no, I, I have to talk about things, my kids go here, like that's stupid. And then and then, and then I didn't, I didn't. I was like, no, I, I have to talk about things, my kids go here, like that's stupid. And then and then, and then I realized when the next like meet the parent night came up, like I completely omitted my family. I show my kids because I have plenty of pictures of them together, but I didn't show a full family picture. And so it's those little things that like dig in the back of your brain and then all of a sudden they're showing up in the world and you're like damn it, like I'm so mad about this, yes, yes, exactly, and I, I that's a.
Elisa (she/her):That's a very different experience from mine, though, because where I teach is like 45 minutes away from where my kids go to school, and like I commend you for that because I would never want to live and teach in the same place, because I want to go to the grocery store and not know anybody. But I can totally understand that, and I think you know, I think about it's true A lot of teachers. When they introduce themselves at, you know, open house or meet the teacher night or whatever, they might put a picture of their families up on their smart boards. And even now, to this day, I don't think I could go that far. I am more comfortable. The kids are a lot more comfortable. Go with the flow, accepting.
Elisa (she/her):It's the parents that I've always been afraid of. They are truly the ones. It's never the kids, it's never the kids. It's never the kids, and I'm sure you've had a similar experience that now I'm almost like why did I wait so long? Because they don't even blink. They don't. It's not even a thing to them. You know. It's like oh yeah, you have a wife Blah. It's not even a thing to them. You know. It's like oh yeah, you have a wife. Blah, blah, blah, moving on.
Elisa (she/her):You know, it's like not not a serious thing to them, and I guess I don't know. Again, there's like this anger inside of me. This like like retrospective anger, like why, why did I wait so long? What was I so afraid of? Anger like why, why did I wait so long? What was?
Bryan (he/they):I so afraid of. But I mean obviously a lot of things absolutely, and it's not like society helped at all, because it definitely did not. I mean, especially in the early 2000s, like I don't blame you for those first 10 years, because I feel like I had teachers in high school that I think back on now who were probably trying to tell me that we were similar but couldn't say it. And it was literally, you couldn't say it. And when you think about queer advancement and whatnot, I mean gay male sex, like sodomy, wasn't legalized until 2003.
Bryan (he/they):Like it's not right, it's like you don't. You don't know well one you don't know as a young person. You might be breaking some laws.
Bryan (he/they):And two right yeah, just for existing yeah, just for existing right and you know, doing things that come naturally to people, um, but then too it's like, in the scheme of things it's only been a short amount of time, and I try to remind people of that because it's funny now, listening especially to my kids, like my daughter's nine, and sometimes she does this to be funny, but she calls it the olden days and the 1900s- oh yeah and right all that stuff and I have to.
Bryan (he/they):We were talking the other day just about we were at a diner and there were pictures of like marilyn monroe and elvis presley and whatnot, and so to give her a perspective on time, I said, okay, well, marilyn monroe died before your grandma was born, so, like even your, even your grandma wasn't alive at the same time but, on.
Bryan (he/they):You know, dad kevin's side, grandpa was 12, so you can ask grandpa and he might have a memory right seeing something with Marilyn Monroe in it. But you can't ask you know, nana, because she's not going to know, and so I try to use our personal timelines to be like an anchor for her, and that that stuff is what gets me when it comes to like the queer liberation movement. Is that 1969, my parents were five, I was 15 years from being born. Like it's not that long ago, right, right, when you think about like I'm gonna be 40. Like it's not that long ago.
Bryan (he/they):Yes, and people are like, oh, it's been so long and look at all the progress you made. And I'm like, yeah, but look at that progress is actually compounded to like 2003 until 2012.
Bryan (he/they):And then kind of went backwards in 2016. And now we're seeing a little bit more. I mean, the other day, kudos to President Biden for updating Title IX. Hopefully that will be enforceable. I see it being an appeals thing to the Supreme Court, but hopefully it will, you know, be enforceable and students will finally get protections.
Bryan (he/they):But it's disheartening that it really is like these monumental moments that have to happen. A Supreme Court case Right, made me okay, made it okay for us to exist. Well, why do those things have to happen? Why does it have to take something so big? And why can't people realize that marriage equality passed in 2013? It's been 11 years, not even because it's not June yet. So it's interesting to me, especially because I'm a history buff, so I try, I really try, to relate things back to the timeline. And well, as a millennial, we've lived through a lot of historical things. I was joking, joking the other day with my husband about like having lived through so many of the end of the world experiences, because we saw this random countdown clock in New York city when we were at a farmer's market and I was like what is counting down the end of the world? Like we've already lived through that six times.
Bryan (he/they):So, I mean my calendars, y2k like so many things. Yes, it's so. Yeah, so many things.
Elisa (she/her):Yes, it's so true, it's true. And the amount of progress that happened and my wife and I, we talk about this all the time how we feel so lucky to have been born into this time period. Yes, for our, our kids, they don't even understand, you know, the fact that we, we weren't legally married when we had our first son because we couldn't be. And you know, we got married when I was pregnant with our second son because we could be. And to them, you know, having that conversation for the first time, they were kind of like what, what do you mean? You weren't married. And then we had to explain it because to them, you know, we're just normal and it's, it's just interesting that kids now it is, it is being normalized, not to say that it's common, but it's not. You know, it's not something that's a head turner, so much anymore.
Bryan (he/they):One thing that's really frustrating to me, that is still so common, especially in southern states, is that trans parents and lesbian parents have to adopt a child that their partner gives birth to.
Bryan (he/they):Yes, because even if they're legally married, in some states you have to adopt the child because you weren't a part of the process. And I find that so ridiculous because I mean I'll just quote where I'm from, I'm from California the mom writes down a name on the birth certificate of who the other parent is. Right, that's it. Like the mom writes down a name, yeah, nobody else gets involved in the process, right. And so it's really interesting to me where it's like oh, because you're a trans person or because you're a lesbian couple and you had an actual, like you had a baby and for some reason like and I'm sure there's legalities with the surrogacy process, I'm sure that lawyers are involved, that kind of deal, deal with the birth certificate side of things, but I don't know if it's treated the exact same way where you have to go and then adopt the baby later. I think that through the surrogacy process at the beginning, through all that contracting like the baby is yours.
Elisa (she/her):Right.
Bryan (he/they):And both parents are listed. That's something I might have to research. I might ask the Broadway husbands. So, if anybody follows them on Instagram or TikTok, they're pretty fantastic, but I'll ask them because they have gone through surrogacy and I I'm intrigued. I want to know Because I'm so frustrated by the fact that people are still like. My best friend is a lesbian. She had to adopt both of her children because her wife was the one that was pregnant.
Elisa (she/her):Right, right, right, and it's just. It sounds so ridiculous to say it out loud, like it like doesn't make sense, but it is. That's the reality, yes.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, my old neighbor. Before I moved to New York he and his ex-wife had he's like one and a half now, but he didn't get to adopt the baby like fully adopt the baby until he was a year old. Like this child is his, he's been raising this child, but because he's a trans man, he wasn't able to adopt the baby until the baby was like a full year old. Like this child is is his, he's been raising this child, right, because he's a trans man, he wasn't able to adopt the baby until the baby was like a full year old and it's like well, he's dad, that's.
Bryan (he/they):That's just all there is to it.
Elisa (she/her):I don't know why the paperwork has to be so hard right yep and those those are the kinds of hoops that I feel like we might always have to be jumping through. I'm sorry to say, but at the same time it sounds weird to say, but I'm thankful to be able to jump through those hoops. You know that there's that. There's not that that I, that my wife and I are able to have this family, even though you know there are hoops to be jumped over, jumped through Right, absolutely.
Bryan (he/they):I agree with that 100%, because I think that it's important to recognize that, like at the moment, we are free to have our families.
Elisa (she/her):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):And you know I'm being cautiously cynic when I say that.
Elisa (she/her):I get that.
Bryan (he/they):But I think that there's a reality to we've had rights, or rather we didn't have rights. Now we have them and people are threatening to take them away.
Elisa (she/her):Right.
Bryan (he/they):So there's some, you know, cautious cynicism there, yes, but you know, let's not focus on the negative. Let's talk about how great it is for you now working with like queer. I was still always the teacher that they came out to.
Elisa (she/her):And it was. Was it a vibe? Was it just like this other wavelength?
Bryan (he/they):I don't know, it's just it's just gaydar, it's yeah, yeah, I'm serious.
Elisa (she/her):I think it is like that. Is that is a real thing? I do believe. But no, now. Now it's interesting because there is a camaraderie, and there is.
Elisa (she/her):You know, I have some who want to come to me during homeroom and they want to like gossip and they want to, you know, talk to me, you know, in a really familiar way, which I'm absolutely fine with because I'm happy to be that adult for them. But it's interesting because it has become I want to say I keep using the word normalized. Ok, but it's become more normalized to the, to the point that they talk about themselves more with each other and for some of them they I'm old news, like they, like it's not even. They're not going to come to me in the way that they used to, because they're already so comfortable with themselves that they don't need me, and I think that's a beautiful thing. I'm seeing that more and more and more, so something must be going right. You know, in the undercurrent of society, that kids are more and more willing to be open about themselves, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Bryan (he/they):Absolutely. That's one of the things that I loved about teaching high school was just seeing how many students were comfortable with themselves. And I moved from one school district to another and when I got to that other school district, what was really relieving for me was the idea that they didn't need an adult to be the person holding the banner for them. They were holding the banner themselves.
Elisa (she/her):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):And, and I was there to be a support if they needed it, which they didn't really, and so I love that, because it's not that that way for all people everywhere. But I think that there is definitely some movement going on because, as we mentioned, the kids aren't really the issue here, it's it's the adults, it is it is, but the kids are quickly becoming the adults.
Bryan (he/they):So I think that that's that's where my hope lies yep, absolutely, especially when you there are some numbers that you know that there is like 40% of Gen Z or something like that identifies as part of the LGBTQ plus community somewhere on the spectrum.
Elisa (she/her):Yeah, it's a high number Open to the idea.
Bryan (he/they):It's very high. So what happens when those folks have kids, you know? And? And how? How are we gonna see gender and sexuality be presented completely different when parents are talking about it from the get-go right and there's more queer parent representation? Uh, and you know, you're not the only one in the school. That's how I I felt.
Bryan (he/they):I knew one lesbian couple and myself at my daughter's former elementary school, as far as parents go Right, and so we were like we were the two, but in fact I take that back. There was two lesbian couples and ourself I take that back. There was two lesbian couples and herself and then a teacher that I knew who had a kid there but co-parented with a woman. So it was a different kind of dynamic. But I'm looking forward to there being a more I don't know reflective mix of what's actually happening in society, within school communities where we're seeing 15, 20% of parents are a part of the queer community. That's not to say that all queer people want to have kids, and I totally get it If you don't there are some days where I'm like what did I?
Bryan (he/they):um and and then I go, but I love you so much. Uh, it's just a very it's. It's a frustrating comment. It's one of those things where I'm like, oh, and then. I get over it immediately, right, um, but I, I get it, but there's there's so many more of us who are kind of coming in to. I guess normalize is going to have to be the word of the episode. Yeah, because it really feels that way.
Bryan (he/they):I mean, I meet parents a lot more now, queer parents, and the wild part is sometimes I'm meeting, like older gay men who have adult children my age, who co-parented them, but like not any, like nobody really knew what was going on except for the children, and that to me is wild, thinking about going my whole life and maybe maybe just talking about my dad, but not like really referencing which dad it was you know like being vague about it because you weren't allowed to talk about it, um, so there's a whole thing we need, like a docuseries on queer history and history so netflix hulu get on right.
Elisa (she/her):get on that Right get on that Absolutely.
Bryan (he/they):So, since you've been more kind of vocal with students, have you had to deal with any kind of anti-queer behavior, either from students or parents?
Elisa (she/her):Not to my face. I can tell you that I have heard there have been concerned students who have come to me and said so-and-so said this about you or so-and-so said that about you. You know, and the age that I teach middle school, they are just still regurgitating the things that they hear at home. The things that they hear at home. So they respect me enough to never say any of it to me and I can. My responsibility of being a kind, successful, you know, just a normal, here we go, a person that they're seeing you know they're getting this crap at home, but then they're seeing that I am a full human who is coming to work every day and smiling at them and talking to them and hopefully I'm, you know, changing a little bit of that brain chemistry.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, I mean, sometimes just seeing someone who is successful at something you're being told cannot be successful is enough evidence to make little little things change in how somebody thinks.
Elisa (she/her):Yes, yeah, definitely, definitely, yeah, I don't know. I think it's. It's Less and less that I'm hearing also them making homophobic or transphobic comments to each other as well.
Bryan (he/they):Let's talk a little bit about school community. You were at a middle school and I have so much respect for you because I thought I could do that and then I observed middle school and was like no, thank you. Um, yeah, but what do you think the school community can do to be more inclusive of LGBTQIA plus?
Elisa (she/her):people. Um, I think, and I I try to talk to my colleagues about things like watching their language, you know, just in the ways that they refer to students' families, the ways that they refer to the students themselves, and being careful about categorizing, just you know, heteronormativity, and also like being careful with gender norms and things like that. Obviously, I can't police what other teachers do in their classrooms, but I at least like to. I try to bring up the conversations in spaces where people can hear me. I don't know, I've never. So there are some other teachers in my building who, you know, have considered themselves to be allies and go out of their way to put up like safe space stickers and things like that, and I have always felt like that would put a target on me to have something really visual like that. So I don't know, I go about my days being just quietly dedicated to normalizing.
Bryan (he/they):I'm so sorry I keep bringing up that same word, but I feel like, for the fun of it and the play on word, we should go with like homogenizing because, of just that prefix homo. Yeah, I love it so much.
Elisa (she/her):And it took me a second to hear it. But you're like, so right, yes, yes, but that's I mean like, because I'm not. I'm not going to hang a pride flag in my classroom, ok, I'm not. I'm not going to put that. I'm not going to give that opportunity to a student who's going to take a picture and send it to their parents, and then, you know, they make a huge deal about it.
Elisa (she/her):I'm just, I still, for I forever am going to be trying not to make it an issue for myself, to make it an issue for myself, and I think that that, but, but at the same time, the, the, the quietness of it, I think, is also it's on purpose, it's a choice, because I don't want kids to feel like I'm being in their faces and trying to shove it down their throats. You know, I just want them to see that I am just a regular person, just like you, and I accomplished that, I think, with my colleagues a long time ago. And I don't know, I'm not, I'm not doing. To get back to your question, I'm not doing anything in terms of like policy, I'm not doing anything in terms of like leading a club, or you know, I'm just existing.
Bryan (he/they):I think just existing is enough. And I think this is a great segue into my next question, which is what advice would you give to a first time teacher who's unsure about whether or not they should be authentic in the classroom? And I think what you just said is a great lead in to that. I also get the visual of like water and mountains, like it doesn't take a waterfall to to kind of do damage to a mountain, it takes a consistent drip, and a drip is quiet, it is just steady and as long as you are there, steady you are making movement and you're making progress.
Bryan (he/they):But let's let you dive into that question what advice would you give?
Elisa (she/her):This is a hard question for me because a lot of new teachers are from a very different generation from me. You know, I am an elder millennial and I have been through a time period that a lot of young teachers have never had to go through and I think I honestly think that even if I would try to give them advice about something like this, they'd be like, okay, shut up, old lady, like I'm gonna do what I want to do, but if there I, it's very different in different areas. I know that. You know, particularly in southern states, that there can be a lot more fear about pushback, and I get that, and I don't live in the south, I'm in Pennsylvania, so you know things are mixed, but I'm close enough to a city that it's not so much an issue for me. But I think I would just give advice the same way that I would say to anybody that kids, no matter who you are, your students are going to know immediately if you are being inauthentic, and I don't care if that's lying about who your favorite singer is or pretending that you don't like a certain kind of food when you love it, like they're going to sniff it out and they're not going to engage with you as well as they could.
Elisa (she/her):But that does not mean that means different things for different people. So, like I said, if you're the kind of person who wants to put up the pride flag and you want to, you know, talk about your significant other day in and day out with your kids, then that's your choice, no-transcript. And that doesn't make you a bad teacher, it doesn't make you a bad queer person. But I don't know. Again, different areas, different experiences, that for some, some people there, they might not ever want to talk about it with their students because a variety of reasons. But Authenticity is always going to be your in with your kids and that goes for anything. So I don't know if I answered the question. It's hard for me to say because it's just dependent on who the recipients of the advice would be.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, I totally get that and I will say that you're not the first person to kind of go along that lines. There are there are people that don't feel the need to talk about it, and that is perfectly okay, because this is an individual thing. That's why I get so frustrated when, like celebrities are outed, I'm like how dare you people should be allowed to talk about this when they want to talk about this it's, it's their own personal experience and it is a portion of who you are.
Bryan (he/they):It's not the entirety of who you are. So show up for your students in what way you feel best to show up, and you're absolutely correct in that, yeah, so at this point I'm going to actually turn the mic over to you and you get to ask me a question for me to answer. So take it away.
Elisa (she/her):Mm-hmm. Okay, so I'm going to sort of flip it back to you and ask you is there anything over your career that you look back on that you wish you would have done differently?
Bryan (he/they):Yes. So the first thing that I would have done differently is made sure that I was proactively engaging my family in things, like I said. Said I kind of forgot to put them into a presentation. Everybody knew and many of my students knew my kids like everybody knew. It wasn't an issue really. There was like a handful of people where it was an issue when I started.
Bryan (he/they):Four years of a certain president kind of changed that, but, um, I would have made sure my husband was visible in my classroom space, a picture of him somewhere, and at my old school, like I had a rolling desk or whatnot, so it would have had to been on the wall, um, and I need to be okay with that, and it could have just been a picture of all of us, uh, the two of us with the kids, um, and I needed to be able to have him be more present because that is a part of who I am.
Bryan (he/they):And I walked into other people's classrooms and I saw wedding photos, the first pictures of their babies, all of these things that I didn't have. So I would have definitely made sure that those kinds of things were happening upfront. And then I would also not assume that all the queer people need or want my help, because the community that I was in I was like tokenized to be the person who was going to support queer students, but some of those queer kids didn't want or need my help, and so we actually butted more heads than we were helping each other because I was trying to provide assistance and they were like leave me alone, um, and so I think that's something that is good to hear, that, like, just like in life, like one, not everybody's gonna like you, so it's okay for you not to like everybody.
Elisa (she/her):Uh, two, not everybody needs your help just because you're the queer person, even if they're queer, so it's okay to take a step back and be like I don't, I don't have to do that right, right, well, and it's like you said earlier too it's just a small part of who you are, you know it's not your whole personality, so it's not like every queer person needs to be friends with each other like it's. You know it's not your whole personality, so it's not like every queer person needs to be friends with each other like it's. You know, we're all like layered onions of human beings and there's not no reason to assume, and you're right, and that that's.
Bryan (he/they):That's really interesting, it's really interesting yep, I think back on some of those students and I'm just like I didn't do well by you. I didn't do bad, I didn't like hurt them or cause them trauma, but like I was being so proactive that it maybe made them more passive in how they wanted to communicate and express themselves. Sure, because I was like I'm ready with the resources, I'm here to help you. I don't know.
Elisa (she/her):Jump right in.
Bryan (he/they):And you are safe. You are safe here, and let's talk about this, this and that, but that's a little overwhelming.
Elisa (she/her):Right, absolutely, absolutely yes.
Bryan (he/they):So, before we wrap up this interview, I understand that you have written a novel. Do you mind telling us about it?
Elisa (she/her):yes, I would love to. So um, I wrote a novel, um, it's called um. Here I can show you real quick. It's called actually invisible, and this story came out of my experience as a I want to say closeted, but not fully closeted at work teacher, and in the story the main character, josie, is accused of influencing a student to be gay, and it essentially started as like a therapeutic exercise for me to work out one of my worst fears. And you know, the student's parents take their concerns to the school board and Josie gets anonymous threats through email and it's there. There are flashbacks also to her past as a high school student in the 90s, as the only queer person.
Elisa (she/her):So some, some of the things that I pulled out like obviously you write what you know were based on some sort of like little autobiographical details, but the the modern timeline of events, with her being accused, has never actually happened to me. I was just kind of, you know, I've always been worried that that's something that could happen. So, anyway, it's been absolutely amazing to interact with people who are reading the story, who have been through something similar, and I'm talking not just teachers, but I had someone reach out to me who is a youth pastor working with students and, you know, also being queer and not sure how she should bring that to her job. I've had other it's just been, I think, a lot of us in our age group in particular where we have lived through like this whole weird time where it was like, you know, the pressures to be something that we weren't and then all of a sudden it was like, oh, maybe I can talk about this, and then now it's kind of like should I? And then you know it's, it's, I think, a really important story. I think a really important story, and no other novel has ever been published like this, with this kind of perspective and for various reasons.
Elisa (she/her):But I I don't think that a lot of people would be willing to put themselves out there. And I can't tell you that I haven't lost sleep over making myself this visible. And you know, even talking to you today, like it's exciting, it's exhilarating, but there's always going to be in the back of my mind, like why are you letting yourself be so visible? Why are you doing this? Is it worth it? Is somebody going to have something to say to you? But that's why, that's why I wrote this book and that's why I published it so I don't know. Check it out.
Bryan (he/they):I'm happy to, and also I mean that's why Teaching While Queer exists is because there wasn't this voice, Right? So I appreciate that you've created this in a book space. I have a personal question, then is is there an audio book? So there is not yet Like, yeah, when's that coming out? Yeah, uh-huh, me too.
Elisa (she/her):Me too, I am all about the audio books, especially on Libby, but, um, it is in the works. I will tell you that the book is available paperback, hardback, e-book on Amazon paperback and hardback also available through, like other websites, barnes and Noble and Bookshop and all that stuff. But I am going to be I don't want to say the word submitting, but that might be it to like the library systems this summer when I actually have time to finish the audio book. Yes, exactly, so I am. Yes, the audio book is in the works and I totally understand and I can let you personally know when it's available.
Bryan (he/they):I love that.
Elisa (she/her):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):I will announce it because I'm a huge audio book person.
Elisa (she/her):Yes.
Bryan (he/they):Awesome. I hope that people go out and read your book and, for those of you who are audio people like me, I will post it as soon as I find out that it is available on audio book, because that is my thing I just retain more information that I listen to. It's it's my brain.
Bryan (he/they):Yeah, hey, elisa, thank you so much for taking time to come and talk to me today and sharing your experiences, which were very real and just I don't know, I just I have a lot of camaraderie with them, probably because we're in a similar age group and kind of experience things in a similar way, so I hope that these stories helped others as well, especially the like. Show up how you need to show up, Right right, yes, no, thank you.
Elisa (she/her):This. This is incredible. I mean, I we talked about this already. The loneliness of being the only one you know it's it's to, to find community in a way like this is just. It's like a cool drink of water. It's like a cool drink of water. You know, it's just something that you like. It's like almost like I didn't know I needed it.
Bryan (he/they):You know, yeah, I really appreciate it, thank you I I appreciate you and I appreciate all of you who are listening. We are so close to wrapping up season two and I appreciate that you've been on this journey with me. I'm so excited for summer school sessions which, if you haven't heard from our Instagram account, we are doing special topic sessions with panel discussions during the summer, where it's less about individual personal narratives and more about, like, what are some tangible things that we can send you away with that are going to help you in different aspects of being a queer educator. So I hope you stick around for summer school and I thank you all for listening to this episode. Goodbye everyone, bye. Episode of Teaching While Queer. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to subscribe. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, leave a review and that would help out tremendously. You can also support the podcast by going to wwwteachingwhilequeercom and hit support the show. Thanks so much and have a great day.