64. How You Can Push Through LGBTQ Attacks in Conservative Schools and Maintain Your Authenticity

Ever wondered how to navigate being queer while teaching in a school? Listen in as Barb MacWilliam shares her journey and challenges as a queer middle school teacher.

Barb's experience highlights the complexities of being a queer educator, from navigating personal identity to fostering inclusivity in the classroom amidst societal and institutional challenges.

Through our conversation you will:

• Discover how Barb's personal journey shapes her approach to teaching and advocacy.
• Learn strategies for creating safe and inclusive spaces for LGBTQIA+ students and educators.
• Understand the importance of supportive policies and communities in educational environments.

Ready to learn how to create a more inclusive classroom? Tune in to gain insights from Barb's experiences and start transforming your educational space today.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): [00:00:00] Hi Barb, how are you doing today? 

Barb (she/her): I'm good, how are you? 

Bryan (he/they): I am doing great. Do you mind taking a moment and introducing yourself to everybody who's listening? 

Barb (she/her): Sure. My name is Barb McWilliam, and I go, my pronouns are she and they, and I teach, 6th grade science and health in P.

E., middle school, basically, in a fairly large district in Oregon. 

Bryan (he/they): having science teachers on because it's like the opposite of what I do, so it's always a fun perspective, to get. Let's talk a little bit about your experience as a queer student. What was that like? 

Barb (she/her): Well, actually, I didn't really know I was a queer student, which isn't all that uncommon, at least people of my age anyway.

And so, like, I remember in high school, I was super annoyed with all of my girlfriends who were completely boy crazy, and they would make up these names, like, Nicknames for all the [00:01:00] people that they like, so they could have a conversations without people knowing and I just remember thinking, please don't ask me who I like, please don't ask me who I like, because I liked them, right?

so, yeah, I didn't come out until I was 21 and in college, and once I came out, the whole world opened up, right? I did all the things of, being in all the clubs, and being an activist, and telling everybody I could think of, and all of that. So, yeah, in retrospect, of course I was queer, but, no.

I just was an awkward kid. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. I think for those of us who came up in the eighties and nineties, that we definitely have the retrospective look of like, Oh, that was a queer moment. Oh, that was a queer moment. How did I not 

Barb (she/her): Right. 

Bryan (he/they): My best friend, I've known since high school, we dated my freshman year and she is now happily married to a woman and I am happily married to a man.

And we're both like, well, why didn't you tell me? 

Barb (she/her): Yeah. [00:02:00] 

Bryan (he/they): And that's just kind of how it was for those folks who aren't aware of what the 80s and 90s were like. It was a lot of, we're going to keep this to ourselves, and then we're going to have a realization about 10 years from now. 

Barb (she/her): Yep, pretty much. 

Bryan (he/they): How do you think those experiences inform your work in education?

You do have some experience in the sense that like, Your friends were talking about all the how they were boy crazy and you were like, please don't ask me, please. So you have some experience with that kind of, the silence side of being a queer person. So how do you think those experiences inform your work in education?

Barb (she/her): I found out pretty early on that like a hot button issue that my kids would start doing is they'd start Because they're sixth graders. So in the spring they get all Twitter pated and cause they've grown up enough and their hormones start bursting. And so they're talking about who they like and people are holding hands and all that.

Right. And then, and then they start [00:03:00] to bug other kids about who they like. I make it very known, that, you know, this, you can totally talk about who you like, but bugging somebody else about who they like is not okay and it's none of your business and that kind of thing. And that obviously comes from how I grew up.

 And I just, yeah, it's mostly, it's mostly that, that's the biggest thing. And then, this idea that Because I also teach health, and I started teaching about sexuality and gender identity kind of before it was in the curriculum. and I started by, and every year, I never know if kids know, and so I assume they don't, which that's morphed into, I pretty much assume they do.

But, and so I would say things like, The LGBTQ community or they feel and I'm thinking, [00:04:00] but no, it's my community and I feel and we feel and whatever. So I just felt very dishonest. And so I'm out, I guess that's also informed my teaching too. 

Bryan (he/they): how does it feel teaching now, teaching the same subject even?

Being more authentic compared to maybe when you started. 

Barb (she/her): Well, that's a long story, but mental health is way better, and it feels much more, like I've morphed from being scared, literally scared, to, being kind of proud of myself. Like, I remember one kid, one year, I've been teaching in the same school for 25 years.

So I've taught all of, basically the parents at the open house are my students, or were my students, right? So I've taught all the siblings, whatever, but a little girl comes up, somebody's telling, saying bad things, or somebody's spreading [00:05:00] rumors about you, is what it was. I said, okay, so what's the rumor?

They say that you're gay. I go, well, were they saying it because you were Like to make fun of me or to like, tell me, tell you or what? And they go, well, I think it's just to let me know. And I go, well, then it's true. So it's okay. And they go, Oh, okay. And then they just left, like, and I just stood there sort of shell shocked, like, wait, that went way better than I thought it was going to go.

And so, and then being able to see the kids now who are so just out, like, deal with it, kind of thing, and I've had past students over the years tell me things like, you were the only one I knew, you know, that kind of thing, so it feels really good to be out. I kind of went from scared to, like, super proud, and now in our political [00:06:00] climate.

Feeling a little nervous, but, I'm also on my way out. I'm looking hopefully at retirement soon. So there's that. yeah, it makes me, heart swell. 

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. I think that what's so funny about that conversation with a student is that just the phrase, someone's spreading a rumor about you can go so many ways in so many directions.

And that right there would have made me go, Oh God, What is it now? ? 

Barb (she/her): yourself. It could be anything. 

Bryan (he/they): be anything. It could be any number of lies and then it turns out to be the truth and you're like, oh yeah, okay, well that's fine. . 

Barb (she/her): That was not a big deal, . 

Bryan (he/they): So thinking about the fact that it could have gone any direction, if you are confronted with antique behavior, what kind of things do you do to combat it? 

Barb (she/her): Well, it. I kind of mostly I'm all about like trying to be proactive about it in the first place, so my school really early on when I got [00:07:00] there I resurrected this thing called the Discrimination Free Zone, they call it DFZ, and it's like a mission statement kind of that the kids came up with before I ever got there and it listed a whole bunch of categories and, Sexual orientation and gender identity and physical characteristics weren't in there at first.

And we were having a staff meeting and they said they said, you know, should we keep doing this DFZ thing? And I was like, what is that? And then they read it and I go, why isn't sexual orientation in there? And the principal looked at me and then went, you know what? It should be. And we just put it in there.

So yay. But I led that for years and years and years, like about 12 years. It was all volunteer. I don't even know how I had all of that energy, but anyway, there was a team of teachers really dedicated to trying to bring awareness to all kinds of things. Race, religion, age, economics, I mean all the things, [00:08:00] right?

And for me, I think I was trying to make it, I was trying to make it safe for me to be a gay educator. It's, Sometimes one of my pet peeves is that it's a lot of for students and to make sure students feel safe and there hasn't been a lot. This is why I like this. So there hasn't been a lot for teachers.

And when I was going through the horribleness, we'll talk about later. The only thing I had, because it was before social media too. The only thing I had was the book called One Teacher in Ten, by Kevin Jennings. And it was like my Bible for a while. But, so I wanted to feel safer. I went, I knew that the district had, discrimination policies, but still.

So I try to be really, and so basically D of Z and teaching about it just made it easier. Like you were just, you know, you could just say those [00:09:00] three letters to and then, you know, they made fun of it. They're like, Ooh, DFC, but then they would shut up and they wouldn't do it anymore. So there's that.

I try to be proactive with, like, all the rainbow stuff that's in my room. now there are teachers who put pride flags in their room. It's just standard. I think my school actually paid for them, which was amazing. And I also try to make sure that I teach kids how to report any kind of bullying.

And we have a link that's on all of their Mac books and like how to do that. And then I'm like, okay, so if you don't think something's happening, tell me and I'll figure it out. The, we have a huge GSA right now that I have nothing to do with, but it's huge. And the district sponsors a pride fest for sixth through 12th graders, I think every year, which is amazing.

And then I also and it does, it's not so bad anymore, but for a little while there I had to [00:10:00] do a big spiel about. Okay, Halloween is coming, let's talk about stereotypes. Or, spirit days, let's not do that one, or that kind of thing. So, that happened too. My Spirit days are so 

Bryan (he/they): interesting because they can be so bad, and I'm just sitting there going, like, the advisor didn't, the advisor didn't really, like, think about that one.

Yeah, 

Barb (she/her): I've had to be like we're canceling that one. You gotta figure something else out. But just, like, the end of this year, I was just tired. And so, some kid's making fun of, you know, he's wandering around with a pride flag, he doesn't know what it means. And he's, you know, doing things he shouldn't be doing.

And I just pulled him aside, I go, Look, I'm gay, that offends me, quit it. Like, I just, and they're like, oh, sorry. Yeah, I'm like, just, I give up. Like, whatever. 

Bryan (he/they): So, it's a lot. This has gotta be [00:11:00] direct. 

Barb (she/her): Yeah. 

Bryan (he/they): I do appreciate you mentioning that there are so many resources for queer students. That is one of the reasons that I started this podcast as well as the community that's growing out of it is to make sure that there are always resources for queer educators too.

So stay tuned folks, more, more to come on that. But I definitely think that there needs to be more space and resources and community for queer educators, because honestly. We deal with a lot of crap. We deal with a lot of crap and we are very tired. 

Barb (she/her): And it's isolating anyway to be a teacher. Like you're in your own classroom and over the years I have less and less time to be able to talk to other teachers just in general.

And so you kind of feel like you're the only 6th grade science teacher when really you're not. And then it's worse when you're like, Are there other lesbians out there? There aren't any in my school. Like, like, where are you? Yeah. 

Bryan (he/they): Where are [00:12:00] you? Send a flare. Yeah, I absolutely understand that. And what's wild is also when you're like, you're trapped in your classroom with teenagers or preteens.

And it's just like, oh gosh, just give me a break. So I totally, totally understand that. And I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I don't think a lot of people realize how isolating being a teacher is, and one of the best advice I got from people who eventually became dear friends to me, but they were just like, Colleagues, my first year teaching was like, get out of your classroom and find people, even if it's going to your person across the hall.

And so I became best friends with the two people, the two women who were across the hall from me. And like, If I needed to vent about something, I could walk over, I could vent, and then I could walk back and I would be fine. And I think that that is so necessary because I don't think a lot of people, especially in teacher training programs, I don't think they're preparing people for the isolation.[00:13:00] 

You are in a room with children by yourself for hours, hours. 

Barb (she/her): And it feels like maybe that wouldn't be isolating, but it absolutely is. 

Bryan (he/they): Well, yeah, you can't have any kind of adult conversation. I don't care how old the children are I mean I was teaching 18 and 19 year olds who you know seniors Some of them 18 some of them 19 and I was having adult conversations with them They were still children and I was still treating them as though they were children because that is my job 

Barb (she/her): Yeah, 

Bryan (he/they): and so it's like Having those tiny moments though are so helpful, especially in I would say your first five years having someone you can talk to.

If you can get someone and connect with someone, I think it will help push you past the fifth year, which is where most people stop teaching. Yeah. I just transferred to teaching college. So yeah, I did get out of K [00:14:00] 12, but. Still in the classroom. 

Barb (she/her): I think the other advice is to, and it goes along with this I guess, but like, don't eat in your classroom.

Don't have lunch in your classroom. Go somewhere else. For me, it's down the hall to the other science room. And we have adult conversations. But, yeah, if you, when I stay in my classroom all day, like, then I'm just always thinking about all the stuff I have to do. That's all. 

Bryan (he/they): Yep, absolutely. And it's funny because I used to I used to eat my lunch during my lunch with people either outside or another classroom, another space.

And then during my off period, I would spend maybe 10 minutes with, in my classroom with the lights off. Just like decompress, yes, decompressing all the things. And then I would turn them on and I would get to work because I just needed that 10 minutes by myself in like a noiseless. Dark space to just be like, I've been overstimulated all day.

That's another thing they don't [00:15:00] prepare you for. You will be overstimulated. 

Barb (she/her): Yes. Do you feel like you're on call All the time. All the time 

Bryan (he/they): and, and you really are Because even those off period, even those off periods are optional nowadays. So, so you might get a call that, you know, someone had to go home sick.

You need to cover a class. Yeah. So when you have those moments, take them or go sit under a tree or something like do something that you need to for five minutes and just have that peace. And I love that we're talking about this because it actually leads into what I want to ask you next, which is what advice would you give to a queer educator about showing up authentic, about showing up authentically at work?

I started reading my question and it tripped up my brain. Brain eyeball. 

Barb (she/her): Yeah. I would say, and again, I'm alluding to the story that will be later, but know what your district's discrimination policy is, what it says. If it doesn't say, if it doesn't protect you, then figure out how you [00:16:00] can make that happen.

Maybe not while you're probationary, but anyway and to like, do you have, can you tell if it's, you have a supportive environment with your staff? Do you have a union? My union was instrumental in the fact that I'm still teaching. And so, and will they go to bat for you? Because you can have a union, and that sometimes doesn't mean much.

But having the support of your staff, like being out to your staff and knowing that that's okay is a godsend. And that they'll have your back. Have a support system at school, like someone you can vent to, or the principal, and you're like, Hey, this parent won't stop messing with me. Or why do they wanna pull their kid outta my class or whatever.

And also outside of school, you need a support system. Whatever that is that's important. [00:17:00] My story is, hmm. messed up, but at the same time, I would do it all over again the same way, or not the same way exactly, but I would do it again. Like if at all possible, figure out a way to show up authentically.

It really erodes part of your being to not be able to be authentic. And then to see the double standard of people who are married or who have kids of their own or whatever. Or, you know, people in, within the school are dating each other or whatever, like, and, and for you to not, like, to lea For me, when I left that at the door, like, it did something to me.

It's, it wasn't healthy. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah, I think that's the huge struggle that a lot of heterosexual folks don't realize is that so much of their heterosexuality, like, their actual sexuality, cause newsflash. Heterosexuality is a sexuality. much of their sexuality is so [00:18:00] natural for them, but it is questioned constantly for queer people.

Yeah. And it's the simple things like even if you were to date someone on campus, like if there was another lovely, you know, lesbian math teacher and you were to date on campus, it would be like, you can't let people know about this. Right. It would make people nervous. But, you know, when, like, the baseball coach and the math, or the volleyball coach start dating each other, like, that's fine as long as it's heterosexual.

Like, everybody wants to know about it! Yeah, and they're like, oh, isn't this cute? Oh my god, I love this so much. Yep. And I think that's so interesting because I, we hear a lot in the queer community, like, why does everything have to be about you being gay? And I'm just like, All right, then let's talk about just how you live your daily life as a straight person and where sexuality shows up and they're like Well that doesn't count and I was like, well, that's all we're asking for That's all we're asking for is for ours not to count like I should be able to talk about my husband I should be able to have pictures of my family on the [00:19:00] wall I should be able to wear a rainbow flag if I want to I should be able to talk about my children and my family without feeling ostracized and you know, if i'm expecting I should be able to Do the same things that like a straight woman would do in her classroom.

Like, I don't, I'm not going to have a gender reveal party, but that happens. It happens in classrooms where students are helping with teacher's gender reveals. It happens that, you know, students have helped with marriage proposals. I mean, I have dear friends. Where he went to her school and had made signs for the students to hold up to propose marriage.

And I was like, I love you both. That would be a problem if I were to do that. 

Barb (she/her): That's called privilege. Right? Yeah. And that's exactly 

Bryan (he/they): it. And like, these are really fantastic people and, and all that. So I'm not discrediting what he did. What I'm saying is that we should be able to do that too. [00:20:00] Exactly.

Barb (she/her): Exactly. 

Bryan (he/they): So. Let's talk a little bit about the educational community and what it could do to be more inclusive so we don't have to sit here going like, what about me? 

Barb (she/her): Right, right. Well, definitely this whole thing about making sure that, that there's discrimination policies and that they're enumerated.

Like it doesn't just say, Be kind to everyone or whatever. Like it needs to be spelled out and it needs to say students and staff, not just students or not just implied or whatever. And then it also needs to very explicitly say what the consequences for students and staff, I guess, too, are for if you are going to be homophobic, this is what's going to happen.

And if it's not that way. Things get, or it's more vague, I guess. Things get [00:21:00] very mixed up and then it depends on your administration in that building as to whether something happens. It depends on, you know, what kids said what to who, and then you're like, wait, they both said a slur like, wha, hmm. So yeah, that those things.

I think that's the most, that's the, that's the teeth that allow someone to be authentic and to also believe, believe you that about you, you back this up being able to, I don't know how you exactly do this, but the districts. Or educational communities, as you say somehow showing, showing up for us, showing up for the LGBTQIA plus community and showing that you trust [00:22:00] us with children.

Like, I don't know how you do that exactly, but cause that's the thread, especially with parents. or with people who don't even have children in the schools that, that like, they'll weave that in of like, are you sure you want little Susie being taught by Barb? Like, I've heard some things. Like, stuff like that happens, and if you don't have a discrimination policy that's pretty much airtight, you're kind of screwed.

Bryan (he/they): Yep, absolutely. I think that, that is really on point because I dealt with my, the first school that I taught at, Had very, like, very loose rules because they were trying to, you know, treat the children like adults and, and make it feel more like a college campus. Like dress code was like basically entirely up to the principal's discretion.

And I was like, look, y'all, I know that you don't want to have a dress code, but like, you [00:23:00] really want to let this woman be the deciding factor on whether or not your clothes are okay. Like. At least having some ground rules is gonna make it a lot better than like, what she feels like at this moment. Like, at bare minimum.

And then I had an issue where they were revising like the, I think it was extracurricular code of conduct. It was specific to students, but they were talking about discrimination and harassment. And I said, you should explicitly put in the term sexual orientation and gender identity. And they were like, well, we're not going to do that, but you know, we would protect them.

Right. I was like, I know that. I also know there's laws to protect me. However, I studied that and I'm an adult and I can figure that out. This is for 12 year olds to 18 year olds. They're not going to know that they're protected unless you tell them they are protected. Yeah. You can't put it in code.

Exactly. You can't be like, well, it all falls under sex discrimination. [00:24:00] Like it's the penal code. But like, yes. What does that mean 

Barb (she/her): to a 12 year old? 

Bryan (he/they): Right. I understand, I understand that gender identity and sexual orientation fall under sex discrimination until recently when they were added to Title VII and then eventually Title IX.

Like, recently. I understand that. I am almost 40 years old and I've had time to learn these things because I've had time to fight for that wording to be put in place so it is no longer elusive. And I think that you're absolutely correct that if our educational communities want to show up for us, they have to show up in writing and they have to hold to it.

Barb (she/her): Yeah. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. Yep. 

Barb (she/her): I think the other thing is when they're, and I feel like my district does a pretty good job of this when we're adopting new curriculum and it's hard because like, we just, [00:25:00] We just got new last year, we got new health curriculum and they weeded out so many different curriculums because they didn't have sexuality.

They didn't talk about pregnancy. They didn't talk about any of that stuff. And so we have only had two curriculums to choose from. So this is going 

Bryan (he/they): out to all of you out there who want to build curriculum. We need comprehensive sexual education curriculum that is a viable option for schools to actually use.

We should not be afraid of the word pregnancy. I just don't understand how, like, statistically you can see when you teach abstinence, that ain't happening. So how do we really go, okay, we're going to do the science based, we're going to do the statistic backed up curriculum. So folks who create curriculum, get on it.

Let's see it. Let's go. 

Barb (she/her): Yes. Lots and [00:26:00] lots. Hiring diverse staff. That would be important. Having libraries. So, there's like a GSA sponsored section of our student library. Because they, they were amazing. The year that I was, I didn't have to do anything. They were like, we're gonna raise money and we're gonna buy books for the library.

Great, go for it. And I didn't think it would really happen. And it did. And it was awesome. And this last year, They started banning them. They started taking them off the shelf. But having, having kids, having access to those books in the library and what else? Well, that's pretty much, those are the things.

I just 

Bryan (he/they): read a news article about a teacher who was put on suspension for just telling her students that they have free access to the Brooklyn library online. Like there's a, a library program. And it didn't say explicitly that she was saying, [00:27:00] so go get genderqueer or go get these banned books. She was just like, here's this library that's free for you.

And she was put on suspension because the kids would have access to those banned books that the state is trying to ban. 

Barb (she/her): Put on suspense. Oh my God. Okay. I'm feeling very lucky right now. I mean, I, I realized that. I'm like on the, we'll call it liberal continuum over here, and so when I say, oh you should be out, and I know that's not even remotely possible in some places.

But yeah, in this, like, and they wonder why we're worried, why we're scared, why we second guess ourselves, because crap like that can happen. That makes me angry. 

Bryan (he/they): Me too. And I think what's wild for me right now is the people who don't wonder why we're worried [00:28:00] or whatnot, but think that we're just overreacting.

And I'm like, well, except for there's actual things happening to queer people right now. 

Barb (she/her): Right. 

Bryan (he/they): Like, There's evidence. I don't know what you wanted to say. 

Barb (she/her): We didn't, we didn't make it up. Yeah. 

Bryan (he/they): So, we've reached a point in the interview where we have a Ask a Queer Educator question. Today's question comes from Audrey from Des Moines.

And Audrey says were you ever concerned about being a queer person in education? And from what I gather, you've got a story to tell. 

Barb (she/her): I do. Let's see. I'm gonna try to do the short version. My student teaching year my mentor teacher, at least that's what they called them then was a supporter of the Oregon Citizens Alliance.

And the Oregon Citizens Alliance tried, you look them up they tried like mad to pass a lot of anti gay laws in Oregon, and they [00:29:00] didn't succeed with those, but they did succeed in putting things on the books in small towns. And so when to be a student teacher, I went to a small town because they didn't have enough in the town on my college was in.

And so I would drive down there and it literally was illegal to be me in that town. Teachers weren't allowed to be gay. So I didn't come out. I did have a conversation with the principal. I remember like asking his advice, like, cause, Oh, and I taught a sex ed unit. Go figure. And so I asked him, I go, I'm a lesbian.

What, what do you think I should do in the future? I was, you know, young teacher trying to get information. And he basically, he said, wait until you get your own classroom. and then see if it's really necessary. Well, ha ha ha, okay, it's necessary, but okay. So I did, I managed to get through that. My first job, I've only had two different, worked [00:30:00] for two different districts.

My first job was in a tiny little, again, tiny little district up in Washington. I taught all eighth graders in the district, there were 40 of them. My first year, everything went awesome. Lovely observations, all the paperwork. Yay. Keep going. We love you. Whatever. In the mid, at the summertime a student of mine, I taught eighth grader.

Oh, I said that. And so she was working behind the counter at a coffee shop and I was there and she was, you know, chit chat. And then she says, so do you have a boyfriend? And I said, no. And then there was this weird pause. And then she said, so do you have a girlfriend? And we locked eyes because I was like, Oh my God, we locked eyes.

And I said, no, but I'm looking. And then she goes, okay, she got my coffee. And we moved on the school year started. And in November they decided [00:31:00] to, or the principal decided to put me on. They didn't say this, but it was like a plan of assistance. I had to write all my lesson plans and turn them in on Monday.

And then she would come in on Friday or Thursday and watch me and ding me for every single thing that I didn't do in that plan. So she was building a paper trail. I didn't really know what the heck was happening. I just knew it felt gross. And every time I felt like I was a bad teacher, my kids didn't respect me.

There were that particular class I learned later, like drove their elementary teachers to retire. Like it was, you know, there's a class like that comes up anyway. And I, what? 

Bryan (he/they): It really does. It really does. 

Barb (she/her): It, yeah. If you teach long enough, it happens. The, the letters K A L K. A. L. started showing up in all over the place, in their binders, on the desks.

It was scrawled in pencil really big on the wall, [00:32:00] and I found out it stood for Kill All Lesbians. And when I asked the principal, you know, Hey, can you get somebody to, to take this off of the wall? She said, well, why can't you just wipe it off? Like she didn't care. She didn't care. So then in April, 20 minutes before there's a long story.

Oh my gosh. 20 minutes before I was supposed to teach. She told me, okay, thank you. She told me I was supposed to, or I wasn't going to be rehired. And I immediately start crying and panicking. And I asked her, well, can I resign, thinking maybe that would be better? I don't know. And she said, well, guess what?

 school board met last night and they agreed that if you resign by the end of this week, we'll pay you through your entire contract. I've never gotten a check that big in my life. And I didn't work as a teacher for a whole year because I thought I sucked. Eventually I decided I really needed health insurance again.

And I found a [00:33:00] job here in Oregon. And it's the same job I have now in the same school. But when I, so I was part of the DFZ, discrimination free zone, like lesson stuff. And in the process of that lesson, a kid essentially asked me if I was gay. And I said yes. And then immediately sort of freaked out because the consequences of that are, were zooming around in my head and all these lovely little 11 year, 12 year old children were looking at me and, and then I said, does anybody have any questions?

And they all ask really cute questions like, Well, where do you find other gay people? Does your mom know? Like, you know, whatever cute things. Does your mom know? Yeah, I know. What does she think? She loves me. Thank you very much. And then So there's four minute passing times in between classes. In that four minutes, because if you've ever worked in the middle, if you ever worked in a school, you know that pretty much the entire school knew in the last, after [00:34:00] that.

Like my next class knew, so we had to have that conversation. So we kept having that conversation all my classes. The end of the day, principal comes and says, I'm getting irate phone calls. And this is before social media. This is before cell phones. Like how the hell did that even happen? Anyway, still a mystery.

Anyway and in the, I don't remember that whole entire conversation because I was. in shock, because I thought I was protected. I thought it was a no brainer. I mean, yes, it was slightly new and, you know, whatever, but I, surely I couldn't have been the first gay person to come out to children in the district.

I was. 

Bryan (he/they): Did they give you a medal? 

Barb (she/her): Yeah, I know. They did the opposite. so she, the only part I really remember was she said, well, I need to tell the parents. that you're not going to do this again. And I looked at her and I [00:35:00] go, I need to tell my morning classes because they didn't hear it from me today.

And I told all my afternoon class, of course, I'm going to say it again. And so then the, the problem was, is the district had sort of vague, they couldn't figure out how to fire me. They couldn't figure out if they, if I did anything wrong, they wanted me to have done something wrong. So that became a thing.

The parent backlash was.

It went on for years. It was It involved the media, it involved the news stations, it involved the radio stations. I remember I woke up one morning to my clock radio and it was literally spewing my name and conversations about all that. The editorials. Dozens and dozens of editorials. I have them in like a notebook.

From the newspaper because it was selling newspapers. [00:36:00] Horrible things being said about me, some positive, but a lot of horrible, and I wasn't allowed to say anything because, oh, because the union was involved, a lawyer was involved, a very, very determined group of parents were involved that went after my license.

So they actually went to TSPC, the Teachers Standards and Practices Committee. And tried to get them to take my license away. And the lawyer actually, she was surprised. She's like, I didn't realize I had to go to bat and, and actually convince those people that you weren't trying to make people gay. Like it was ridiculous.

But in the end I was able to keep my job. The principal was no longer there. That's where I knew. Like during that whole thing. Oh, sorry. Determined parents. They printed the [00:37:00] letter that they gave to TSBC. On, they had a huge stack of it. He came bursting into my room at the end of the year with him as wise, I, why I know this, but they went at the end of the year.

So this happened in March. And at the end of the year, they went to all the feeder schools of, to my school. And as the kids on the last day left, they handed this letter to all of the parents. So then the next year, when they got their schedules and my name was on it, all these parents pulled their kids out.

And then every couple of years it kept happening because siblings, right? So it lasted for a very long time. And then the, and DFZ had to be canceled that year because it was too much. And it was, it was, It was an absolute nightmare. I didn't, I would still do it again. Like I said that earlier, I would still do it again because I think it was important.

I wish I had, I wish I had been more confident in [00:38:00] myself. But like I wasn't because they were attacking my mental health. They thought I was trying to convert children. They, they called me suicidal, like she's not in her right mind, all that. And so then I wasn't able to take any sick days because it would just fuel the fire.

So I kind of went into, you know, disassociated. I left that part of me out of the building years. And I eventually had to take a year off to like work through all of that. And best thing I did. It really helped. But

I don't know. I just, it's,

if you're up for the fight, it's worth doing. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah. to trust yourself. I think what, what, pisses me off the most about your story. Aside from the fact that it happened in general, like, [00:39:00] completely unnecessary, is that we're always put in a place where we are made to be silent. You can't say anything, you can't respond, you can't do this, but everybody else gets to say whatever the heck they want about us.

And we're not supposed to engage, and we're not supposed to respond, and we're not supposed to share our side of the story, ever. And that part I can't get behind. I respond in comments. I respond to people on social media. I stand up for things. I speak because we are done being silent. This whole program exists because I am done letting people silence us.

And I am so frustrated by the fact that like the result is, Oop, some controversy happened, so They're going to say all these things. It would be so much better if you just didn't respond, but then that like [00:40:00] silence is just making other people think that by not responding, all those things are true because that's all the information that's out there.

There's no rebuttal to it. 

Barb (she/her): Right. I had to, I had to rely on other people to write other editorials, like, and thank goodness I had that. But, oh. Oh, and then that whole thing of like the when you were talking about teachers dating each other, like they did a whole spread in the newspaper a few months after this started about a, a group of students in a class who made a, a dating profile and found the husband for the teacher.

And they, that was splashed over the newspaper at how it was so wonderful and so lovely. And I was just like. You're giving me a migraine. This is, do you not see, do you not see? 

Bryan (he/they): The cognitive dissonance that happens whenever the word queer appears is just mind boggling. How there's such an [00:41:00] immediate double standard and like far worse things can happen as long as it's with heterosexual people.

Yeah, it's wild. It is so wild. It is wild. Hey Barb, I just want to thank you so much for spending time with me and being so vulnerable with your story. I know it happened a while ago, but I can tell that it still has a little impact on you, but I'm glad we could share it because with modern technology, I mean, this thing, this, this situation is happening a lot to queer teachers all around the world.

And now it's coming from like, inundated emails and social media messages and people who are not even in the state or country like just spewing all this hatred and so it's it's nice and also frustrating to know that this is just 20 year old tactics happening [00:42:00] with new technology. You know, that it's not a new, it's not a new thing.

People have gone through this and survived it in the past. I think that's one of the things that is, is hard for people to grasp, especially now when they're going through it, when you're just inundated with negativity, that there are people who have come before you who have been in this situation and they have, you know, Survived and not only that like now they're thriving and you know, you're you're getting ready to retire man.

Like yeah You have things to look forward to and so I just want to thank you so much for not only sharing your story but like for utilizing your resources you using your union and like Still being here teaching because thank you. I mean you didn't have to That's a hard thing to go through and you did it and you're at the same place, which is also a hard thing.

Like you went through this very thing and you stayed for 20 years. Like, wow. I'm pretty 

Barb (she/her): stubborn. I didn't want them to win. [00:43:00] 

Bryan (he/they): I'll show you. I'm no, 

Barb (she/her): you I'm in the right here and you're just going to have to figure it out. 

Bryan (he/they): Well, thank you again for your afternoon. I really appreciate it.

Barb (she/her): Well, thank you for having this platform. it's pretty incredible. good job.