72. How Unsupportive Adults Hurt Queer Kids in Schools

Have you considered how being a queer student shapes the way someone educates today? 

Dive into this episode to explore the unique perspectives of Donnie Martino (he/they), a trans queer youth development worker and the impact of personal experiences on their professional approach.

In this episode, we tackle how past experiences as a queer student influence current practices in education and youth development. Whether you’re an educator, a student, or someone navigating queer identity in a professional environment, this discussion offers insights into creating inclusive spaces and advocating for authenticity.

Through our conversation you will discover how to:

• Build meaningful connections with students by being an authentic role model.
• Navigate and challenge anti-queer behavior effectively in educational settings.
• Make informed decisions about your work environment to ensure it aligns with your values and supports your identity.

Tune in now to hear actionable advice and inspiring stories from someone who’s turned their personal journey into a powerful tool for change in education.

Transcript

Bryan (he/they): [00:00:00] Hi Donnie, how are you doing today? 

Donnie (he/they): I'm alive. 

Bryan (he/they): Ain't that right? Can you tell everybody at home a little bit about yourself? 

Donnie (he/they): Sure, so my name is Donnie Martino. My pronouns are he, they. I am a trans, queer, youth development worker. I've been in pretty much all aspects of working with kids, whether it's working at summer camps, being a classroom teacher, or my current specialization, which is in after school programming, where I have moved from being a assistant program director to now overseeing.

six different afterschool programs in, New York City. 

Bryan (he/they): That's awesome. 

 So what was life like for you as a queer student?

Donnie (he/they): All right. So, I am a New Jersey born and bred person, which means that, All of my education, including college, has been in the great state of New Jersey. and for context, I'm [00:01:00] 33. I'm not ashamed of my age or anything. So, my experience being queer and coming to that knowledge took place within the course of the early aughts, which was vicious, for lack of better terms.

I was one of the only queer kids in my school, which I know is an experience that a lot of folks on this show has kind of spoken to, and Eventually, like, I had a friend who came from D. C. that moved in, and she was a lesbian, and we had something, you know, we had an alliance, and that was great, but a lot of my time was kind of being a little bit isolated, and the way that I connected with people really came in the form of A couple teachers.

I had one social studies teacher who was very passionate about social justice, was very much an ally and ran the initial, like, queer student alliance at the school, and I also had an English teacher who I didn't fully know was gay at the time, but He [00:02:00] actually approached me first. We connected because I was wearing a Labyrinth shirt and we were talking about like David Bowie and stuff.

And, you know, he got me into the Poetry Club, a form of writing I am not very good at. it was those two figures in particular that I kind of just had as a lifeline. Because a lot of the time, there wasn't a lot. And if you look at media representation in the 2000s, it was kind of abysmal. Especially when it comes to transness.

I'm non binary. I'm agender specifically, but being a kid, even somebody who had internet access, some of the only terms you really saw were like, genderqueer, which is a good term, and I'm really happy it exists, but when you're like, an American, like, you know, very like, Western, white kid, that didn't necessarily resonate to me, I was just like, okay, that's a term that exists, and I don't think I am, I am a trans man looking at the information about this, so I don't really know what I am, and I kind of just was a little isolated and just kind of clung to the few people who showed queer allyship during my school years.

Bryan (he/they): That makes a lot of sense and I will [00:03:00] say that during that time there, we've definitely seen a much more expansive vocabulary now, so I can see how it could be difficult to identify during the process as a young person, like how am I supposed to feel? And like humans are very much like, I want to put myself in a box.

But the box didn't exist yet, at least not mainstream. 

Donnie (he/they): Right, and it's like, even like, agender is kind of almost opting out of the box, right? But the fact that you're still in something, there's comfort in that. and I just remember as I came of age, even in like, college, which isn't really that long ago in the grand scheme of history, right?

I was like, I don't really know where I fit here, and it really took like, You know, I know a lot of people mock it at this point, but it was Tumblr. There were terms that I could go off of that I didn't know existed. And like, it really took a lot of steps between meeting people in person and also seeing things online [00:04:00] to get to that point.

Bryan (he/they): Honestly, I think that Tumblr, Reddit, and, Discord get a bad rep, but they are definitely resources that people have. That provide more upfront information because you're getting it directly from other people. 

Donnie (he/they): Yeah, I mean, it's like, I know so many people where eventually they will admit like, yeah, I learned about my identity through talking to people on Reddit or reading a bunch of subreddits about it or whatever.

It's like, I think at the end of the day, at least what I learned in being isolated is like, So many people in the world just kind of need to know the words. They probably feel so many things and they can't articulate it. and, hey, so what? Like, they're so important. They are resources. And sometimes they are what connects us to queer and trans people in a world where we don't always get to see them.

Like, I live now a life where most of my friends are trans. That's an awesome privilege. I'm super [00:05:00] happy about that. But like, that took years of building communities online and off to get to that point. 

Bryan (he/they): I'm seven years older than you, and so my experience with learning came from AOL instant messenger, AOL chat rooms, right?

Like, they used to have, for the young people who are listening, they used to have chat rooms that were like, M for M, man for man, and it would be like, Based off of city and sometimes based off the city and like age range. and then they would do the same thing, you know, like woman for woman. and that was kind of like the start.

And then for gay men, at least gay. com also had chat rooms and like the ability, like a lot of friends that I made at that time, some people that I still talk with now, you know, 20 years later were made in chat rooms, just connecting with other people online. Because we didn't have [00:06:00] the space in person to do that, especially as a young person.

I couldn't drink and Historically bars are where you know, the gay community was Felt the safest and so For young queer people are it was like you got to figure it out on your own and at the time Because we hadn't had such an expansive language yet. I was Considering myself a gay man. And so those gay man chat rooms is where I learned a lot about who I am, what my interests are within the gay community, what my interests aren't, and just understanding the vocabulary of what it meant to be a part of this community.

So I'm right there with you. And it's interesting to see like the evolution of resources. It's so much better now. It's not just a chat room, But on Reddit, and Tumblr, and Discord, like, these logs [00:07:00] stay there for you. And, people can go back and contradict things.

and there can be discussion. that then, gets logged. So, it's an interesting time. But I look at my own children and I'm like I wish you would understand that you can make friends online and have healthy relationships with people and also make friends in person. 

Donnie (he/they): I think also speaking to that the Internet has changed, right?

and many people have talked about it, but it is very interesting watching youth kind of, I think that almost the problem is, is like, and there's flaws of being a person on the internet. I can speak to the successes, I can speak to the challenges, but I think what has happened almost, it's like, as somebody who escaped real life, right?

I went on LiveJournal because that's where I want, I wanted to meet people. I was on LiveJournal. I literally, no joke. No joke, I spent a [00:08:00] weekend in Philly with one of my friends I know from LiveJournal, like a couple months ago, literally the first trans person I ever met. a fabulous time, we've known each other for, I don't even want to do the math, but like one of my great pals, but lives in North Carolina, so this was like a cool little moment we could see each other, but it's really interesting, it's almost like, you know, I was trying to escape.

And I was trying to like go, go somewhere and find people versus now where it's like my kids, I don't know if you listeners know about yonder pouches, but they are the cool little thing now for a lot of New York City schools where they, shove their phones into a little, magnetic, pouch and then I have a little key and I unlock it and then they can go on their phone at the end of the day.

And it's always interesting when they turn it on, because it's like, the phone's running hot with all the notifications. And sometimes I'm like, well, what group chats are you in? And they're like, oh, I'm in this group chat with the grade, and I'm in this group chat with my homeroom, and I'm in this group chat with, my [00:09:00] science class, you just spent, like, eight hours with these people.

what are you talking about? And I think that's the weird thing that happens, right? it's no longer this kind of escape thing. It's almost like they're just surrounded by their peers all the time. and it makes making friends online, offline, into this weird, blurry mush of a situation now.

It's fascinating. 

Bryan (he/they): You just described my ten year old's life right there. 

Donnie (he/they): Yeah, 

Bryan (he/they): her phone is constantly buzzing and I'm like, why are these children not asleep? That's what goes through my brain. 

Donnie (he/they): All the time. And it's just a strange thing that happens and I understand why, right? Like it makes sense on one end.

I was like, I can't imagine being in a group chat with a bunch of people that I spent the whole day with. Sometimes I'm like, do you even like half these people? Like you complain about them and then you're messaging them all the time.

Like you're, you're making yourself like batty with this situation. 

Bryan (he/they): I do everything I can to not be in a group chat, period. I just hate it. [00:10:00] But let's talk a little bit about, you talked about your past experience. How do you think those experiences inform your work and education now? 

Donnie (he/they): I think they inform a lot because, For me, I understand how important adults can be in a kid's life, right?

you don't know what a kid is bringing into the school. You just don't. You don't know what burdens they're carrying. You don't know what they're going through. and, I think it's really important to be an authentic self, to show them that like, adulthood is not a thing to fear. In fact, it's a thing to look forward to.

I think something that I know I struggled with a bit as I was a young teacher was like, I don't really know many people like me. I don't really know many people who, like, I didn't know how to rectify, like, being queer, being trans, being out, or not, or, like, I didn't have very many models early in my career.

Now, there's a couple more. We could always use more. I'm sure you can speak to that, with, all of [00:11:00] the wonderful guests that you've had can also speak to that, but it is like one of those things where, I used to work, I briefly worked at a LGBTQ camp and the phrase that they used a lot was possibility models, and I think that really motivated me, was like, I'm going to be here and I'm going to show you, like, a possibility here.

I'm not saying you have to do exactly the things that I do. But I want to show you that this is something you can. You can be yourself, and you can be covered in tattoos, and you can dye your hair, and you can still be considered somebody who is talking to principals and running, like, multiple programs.

Like, these are all things that are achievable. and I think that's always been my big motivation. Also, I'm gonna be honest, I was just a weirdo kid, and now I just like listening to them tell me all the weird things they're into. I've played maybe one hour of Minecraft. I know everything. Because of them telling me all about it.

It's great. I legitimately love just like, sitting at a table and being like, I wanna know about what this thing is you guys are into. Great. Cool. 

Bryan (he/they): I love how you're getting insider [00:12:00] information and you're not even using it. Yeah. 

Donnie (he/they): It's so fun. Sometimes it's just like, I know all this lore. Yeah, like one time, my only time playing Minecraft, I ended up on an island full of cats.

And I was like, this is nice. And like, that was I put the game down. 

Bryan (he/they): That sounds lovely, but also they're inevitably going to beg you to feed them. 

Donnie (he/they): Exactly. 

Bryan (he/they): So, thinking through your experiences, what are some things that you have done, when you're confronted with anti queer behavior? 

Donnie (he/they): You just gotta shut it down.

I mean, I think the thing that ends up happening a lot in schools, which I think is very frustrating, is a lot of teachers get very caught up in being polite versus fighting for what's right. and I think a lot of teachers get like, you know, I don't really think this is my place.

And I find that to be very frustrating and also not particularly productive. And I think some of this is because like, I come from the position of somebody who was trained to be a social studies teacher, right? I feel [00:13:00] very confident in having these conversations because I've studied a lot of queer theory, right, I feel very comfortable having these conversations, so if I hear someone say that, I straight up tell them, like, no.

and I do give them the time to explain to them why, right, because I do think that, unfortunately, when you work with kids, sometimes you're working with them mimicking what they're hearing at home, and that is always really hard. and I think that is where it gets a little tricky, is like, how to Talk to the kid in a way that, like, it's not going to lead to retaliation, but I do think it's something you still got to call out, and I think that's really what it is, is I think that there's a lot of people who get very caught up in, like, what if I get in trouble?

And the answer is, well, if you're creating an unsafe environment, you are in trouble, so let's address it. I know a lot of queer folks can kind of speak to this when they work in education is you kind of unintentionally, become a sensitivity coach in the sense of like, I do [00:14:00] actively call out and make people I work with run through pronouns with me, right?

I'll be like, Hey, this student is using they, them pronouns. Let's hear some sentences. Like, let's kind of go through this. But, I think what I've learned in all of these things is the reality, especially when in those more like professional interpersonal conflicts, is a lot of teachers, bless them, I love a lot of them, they don't really hang out that much with queer and trans people outside of their students.

and I think unfortunately that does mean we have to hold the line and be like, hey, like, you do have to do better. You just have to. Because it's important for everybody in this space and it's especially important to make sure these kids feel safe. So I think really what it is is just, I don't fear, I don't fear, you know, the threat of, anyone being mad at me because I called them out and I said, hey, you can't do that.

Bryan (he/they): you had mentioned earlier that you didn't have a lot of possibility models when it comes to, being a queer educator. [00:15:00] And so that plays a little bit into your comfort level when you're in the workplace. What advice would you give to someone in our community who is unsure about showing up authentically at work?

Donnie (he/they): I think the first thing to think about is, honestly, see what information you can get about your school district or wherever you're working to make the most informed decision if this is the right fit. I think that was something that was scary when I was looking at jobs, but after some bad experiences at some past places, I was like, I have to.

At one point, I was just straight up asking, like, what is your plan to support LGBTQ staff members? Like, I was just asking principals, because I was just kind of sick of being disrespected, and I was sick of, being in bad situations, and I was like, well, if they can give me an adequate answer, then that is fine.

you know what? If they didn't want to hire me because I'm queer, well then, whatever, right? Like, I probably didn't want to work for you anyway. So, I kind of started from the jump doing that, and doing a lot of research [00:16:00] on districts, and I taught in New Jersey, where there's a zillion school districts.

There's so many, Sometimes it's a matter of just one school district and you go down a couple miles and it's an entirely different culture. I do think that and I empower people. I know it's rough finding jobs. It's always rough and scary and the unknown, but I do think that you also have power when you're applying to jobs to choose if something is a good fit for you.

it's not a one way, like the person doing the interview is making the final say. You have every right, if you're in an interview and you're like, Oh, I don't know about this, Go with your gut. Leave. Do not feel like you have to take that job. I understand it's stressful. I want to acknowledge the economy is terrible right now.

But I also feel like if you're going to go to a place and quite frankly feel like you're going to, you want to die, sorry not to be unhinged on that one, you, you shouldn't be there. You don't want to put yourself through that. So I think that initial thing is, and I think that's really what it is, is just being very clear with your intentions.

and doing what you can to be [00:17:00] transparent and try to make sure you have alliances in your school. I know for me, I, I really, right now I have a very strong relationship with my supervisor. And I'm really glad for that because, she always has my back and I think that's really wonderful.

trying to find ways to almost build a community. If you do not see it immediately, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. slowly over time you can find that. I think another thing to do is also when you don't have possibility models, sometimes all you can do is just be your authentic self to the best of your abilities.

And, again, I know it's a really privileged thing to say, especially as somebody who's worked for New York City, like, for as long as I have, which is an entirely different school district from a lot of different school districts. but I think that trying to find the little ways to feel like yourself, even if you're not necessarily able to always express it.

I think for me, it was like I, you know, if I had to dress in more formal schools, what colors were I wearing that I felt more comfortable [00:18:00] in? Or, I wasn't going to wear a dress because I didn't like wearing a dress, so why was I going to wear a dress, right? Like, what can you do to feel like you have control?

Because I think what ends up happening a lot of times is we feel like we don't have control. We get really upset. We get really resentful. And then we burn out. So I think, where can you create power, where can you form alliances, and where can you find control in a situation that is as chaotic as a school that maybe is not as embracing of you, and also working with children, which is never a stable job.

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely. And I just wanna lift up your question that you ask at interviews, because I think it's important for all of us to have, one question in the back pocket for when they go. So, do you have any questions for us? And your question, I think, was worded so well, but it's, what is your plan for supporting LGBTQ staff?

And for those of you who are on the job hunt, put that in your back pocket. if you want to know where these folks [00:19:00] lie, then that's a very direct but very compassionate question. 

Donnie (he/they): And if they start saying like, Oh, this is what we do for our students, just kind of do a polite, like, I'm glad to hear that.

But like, I would love to know specifically how you support staff because like, sometimes they kind of do one of those. and I get it. I understand where that comes from. But like, I think. People don't realize that they can be more assertive on job interviews. Source, I interview people a lot in this position, so, I am literally someone who looks at those resumes and sets up interviews, so please do not hesitate to be specific in questions, do not hesitate to be assertive in your questions, and do not hesitate to send follow up if they don't directly answer your first question.

Bryan (he/they): Absolutely that. And I think that there's something powerful in just reminding people of the fact that you both have a decision to make in the job interview. I also think that there's something powerful in just reminding everyone in the world that a [00:20:00] school is a place for students, but it is also a workplace.

And I get so frustrated because I see so many laws, like I've seen OSHA laws and I've seen, workplace laws just get tossed out of the window because it's an educational facility. And I'm like, Nope, this is my job. I know my rights. And here's what it needs to happen. And you have to remember it is your job and you are protected.

Donnie (he/they): Yes. Yes. Please know your rights. Please understand these things. Teaching unchecked, I know so many people who got health problems because of teaching. how many people do you know that are teachers that also have plantar fasciitis that they're refusing to address?

Like, it's, there's a lot of, like, chronic pain that happens, there is a lot of, various, like, issues. Illnesses that happen and things like that and it's because teachers participate in a culture that's just like just keep going do it for the kids. know your rights understand your rights understand when you are able to Not for a little bit.

And also [00:21:00] like, it's okay to sit down sometimes. It's okay to like, you know, have somebody cover your room because you really have to go to the bathroom. Like, there is no nobility in getting a UTI. Like, please. my philosophy is I don't expect people in youth development to be there forever.

As soon as it stops being fun, for lack of better terms. you don't have to be there for the end of time. However it's definitely one of those things where, you can do things to extend your enjoyment or extend your, sanity, for lack of better terms, and I think it really is knowing your rights and advocating for yourself whenever possible.

I know it's scary, I don't want to diminish it, and I also know there's plenty of school districts that either are weakening their unions, have no unions, all that kind of stuff. But I also want to encourage and hopefully empower people listening to this, like, you do deserve better. And when you bring people together, you can make way more movement than if you're just kind of sitting there alone not really knowing what to do.

Bryan (he/they): I was living and working in a state that said, [00:22:00] if you unionized, we'll take your teacher's license. And I was like, they can't take all of them. Like if we unionize, what are they going to do? If we all band together, what are they going to do? Another thing that you mentioned got me thinking about like the shame culture that, sits around schools because it's like, I don't wanna call in sick because I don't wanna have to deal with creating the sub plan that's gonna take work for me.

And then also, you know, my friend from down the hall is gonna have to double up their class to cover my sick call because there's not enough substitutes. And all of this pressure and all this guilt gets put on the educator. Like it's our problem that the workplace is not running correctly. 

Donnie (he/they): I was like, oh, I like really don't take off and I think it is because like I work with kids and if I'm not there then it's like what do I do then? And, and some of it is definitely holdover from those concerns and it's like, You know, [00:23:00] I remember when I was like, still teaching, there was one, I remember, it was like one quarter I was sick, like the entire quarter.

This is pre COVID, my, my, my views on taking sick time have changed a bit since then. As most 

Bryan (he/they): peoples have. 

Donnie (he/they): Right, but like, I straight up, like, was sick. literally like probably one of the last few weeks of the quarter I finally went in. I had bronchitis. I just casually had bronchitis, and I know I'm not the only youth development worker who just like, casually had bronchitis for like, weeks.

And yeah, it's just, we do deserve better. 

Bryan (he/they): Yes. And we talked about some like systemic things that should happen for all teachers regardless of identity. but let's talk a little bit about what the educational community can do to be more inclusive of queer people specifically. 

Donnie (he/they): How about actually following pronouns when they are in an email signature?

That'd be really good. I love the organization I work for. I am the [00:24:00] only they them there. it is interesting engaging with people, both in and outside of it, and just kind of seeing the accuracy they have on the pronouns. some are better than others.

A lot of people are really good, and I think what's also really good, and which I really want to shout out, is like, my supervisor will, launch across a desk if you misgender me. it's great. Everyone deserves a supervisor like that. I have a couple other friends that are like, no, actually.

Like, right? they're very, very firm in, correcting that kind of stuff. And, I think, that is, it's like, I just don't like when education or youth development, when they talk about supporting LGBTQ people, they're only talking about the kids, and they obviously deserve the support.

But if you're not, you are doing a disservice to the kids if you are not supporting your teachers, because if you don't support your teachers, they're not gonna stay. So your kids are going to spend [00:25:00] entire stretches of time either working with people who are not out or not comfortable being out or whatever.

And I just feel like you can't take a good stance. And I think this goes with a lot of points of marginalization, by the way. Like, it is, like, the way that Teachers of color are treated the way that, you know, like, queer and trans, the queer and trans community and, of course, all that intersects with those communities is, is just, they're not supported in a way to actually make people want to stay.

So I think a lot of these organizations, a lot of these schools, really have to ask themselves, like, what work do we actually have to put in? To do that. And I think it's also like give professional development. So your, your marginalized teachers are not just like doing all the work. 

I don't mind providing some insight and I don't mind helping people, but I also feel like it would be way more effective if you tried to create a baseline understanding of what this stuff is and how this stuff works To make [00:26:00] sure that you're not overburdening your queer teachers. And also making sure that like, again, everyone has a baseline understanding so that when you have a student who comes in and is trans, like you don't have like everyone going, well, I don't know what to do, what does that mean?

Like the amount of times I met people, I'm like, I know you've had trans students. Like there is no, like, why are you talking to me? Like, you've never heard of this before. but like. Again, I think standardizing professional development that's actually effective. There are plenty of really great resources online.

Like, it doesn't even have to be in person stuff. There, there are plenty of ways that you can better prepare your professional staff to be able to ensure that it's not just the burden of your queer teachers. 

Bryan (he/they): Would you like to know a little bit of irony? 

Donnie (he/they): I would love it. 

Bryan (he/they): The state of Texas had an online course that teachers were required to take a couple years ago.

I don't know if it still exists. That was [00:27:00] about the proper use of pronouns. People started implementing that training the next school year. And then school districts were inundated with phone calls about why are you doing that pronoun crap at school? So we literally had a virtual pronoun training that, you know, was stamped the Texas department of education.

And it's funny because it's like, The folks in charge, these very conservative Republican people, just didn't even put two and two together that they actually created a lot of that problem. That's, 

Donnie (he/they): that's, I think a thing that people should really do is really look into, like, the way that states have drastically different standards.

I encourage you why do 

Bryan (he/they): we have a federal department of education when everything is so mixed up? Like, everything is so different. 

Donnie (he/they): there's some things that I do think are legitimately interesting, [00:28:00] cause my social studies background, right, it's like, okay, I get it, the local history aspects are very interesting and should be unique to your state, I follow that, but you can cherry pick random states and look at their standards and they're drastically different, the wordings are entirely different, there legitimately is just no, similarities aside from, Typical US events, right?

Like, it's just like, the framework of them is entirely different. I feel like it's really important for people to kind of understand, especially if you want to engage in conversations about education on a national level, what these states are and what these teachers are dealing with, because some of their standards are bonkers.

it's fascinating, but also very stressful. 

Bryan (he/they): Yeah, and it would be different if they were culturally responsive. But they're not. That's where the local history comes in play and that, you know, that's where those things happen, but the overall content should be pretty consistent across the nation and it is not.

Donnie (he/they): [00:29:00] No, and it's like some states do have initiatives and those are really cool. I'm always glad to see that. But yeah, it's like it's just not remotely consistent and it's just like, all right, well, you know. Neat! really glad these kids have such a great baseline across the board. 

Bryan (he/they): So, we've been getting some questions from our listeners.

Today's question comes from John. And John asks, what do you hope to get out of working in education? 

Donnie (he/they): I think for me, it's interesting, right? Because I'm youth development nowadays. I'm not as education based. But I think the reason why is because I made a really important realization a couple years back that I realized that for me, building relationships with kids is my actual priority.

Like, I love history, I love teaching history, I legitimately have a lot of fun with it, I enjoy that stuff. I enjoy reading and grading essays. I know not everyone feels that way, but I do. and [00:30:00] I think at the end of the day, once I kind of pull through everything, I think what I always want to get out of education is just creating positive and fun relationships with kids.

Bryan (he/they): And I think that's what it is. It's about the relationships. I know we were talking kind of before recording about like my background. and this was the background my kids saw when we were teaching remotely. And, it's always really fun kind of being able to give kids a little slice of, of just like creating positive relationships with adults.

Donnie (he/they): Cause Lord knows there's so many adults in their lives that are so cantankerous, and like, don't really like kids. So, I guess that's what I'm getting at. I always hope to get fun, positive relationships with kids out of it. 

Bryan (he/they): So, for those who are listening rather than watching, um, I forget the specific Japanese art style, but there's a bunch of plush behind him, and there's lots of Disney.

Donnie (he/they): I [00:31:00] see lots of recognizable Disney characters there, which makes me happy because I'm a Disney kid. But so much plush shoved into a shelf. It's just full to the brim. I was really into Tsum Tsums. I'm still into Tsum Tsums. They're like one of my favorite, of the Disney plushes.

I don't think they've ever topped them, quite frankly. so I have a huge collection of them. also not seen, unfortunately. I have like a bunch of LGBTQ manga, which just like you can't quite see. But, yes, for those on various, podcast listening platforms. that is our little visual aid.

Bryan (he/they): I love that. Well, Donnie, I wanted to thank you and your cats for allowing you to, come on to the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation. I'm glad that we got to spend this time together and I just thank you so much for everything that you had to share with us. 

Donnie (he/they): Thank you so much. It was so fun talking.

I always love talking shop and I think what you're doing for with this Series is just so cool. [00:32:00] I listened to a couple episodes beforehand and it's just really nice. It kind of feels almost like I'm talking to colleagues, in a parasocial way.