In this episode, we commemorate the 120th anniversary of the General Slocum tragedy, which took place on June 15, 1904. We examine the profound impact this disaster had on families and communities, specifically focusing on the Haas family. The episode also explores the intriguing connection between historical tragedies and fictional narratives, using Jacqueline Winspear's Maisie Dobbs series as a lens to understand how we process grief and uncover hidden histories.
Key Points:
Introduction: Marking the 120th anniversary of the General Slocum disaster and its historical significance.
Comparison with Eastland Disaster: Recap of the eerie similarities between the General Slocum disaster and the Eastland disaster, both involving tragic loss of life among working-class immigrant passengers.
Literary Reflection: Discussing historical fiction and the final Maisie Dobbs book by Jacqueline Winspear, "The Comfort of Ghosts." Exploring how fiction can offer perspective on personal grief.
Maisie Dobbs' Wisdom: Reading a passage from "Pardonable Lies" by Jacqueline Winspear, highlighting the importance of mental flexibility and viewing evidence from fresh angles to uncover connections in seemingly unrelated cases.
Focus on St. Mark's Evangelical Lutheran Church: Examining the role of St. Mark's in the General Slocum disaster and the lasting impact on its congregation.
Historical Context: Understanding the German immigrant neighborhood known as Klein Deutschland in New York City and its cultural significance.
The Haas Family's Story: In-depth look at the Haas family, including Pastor George Christian Frederick Haas, his son George Christian Otto Haas, and their personal and professional journeys post-disaster.
Spiritual and Religious Transformations: Exploring George Haas Jr.'s shift from his Lutheran roots to founding the Universalist Spiritualist Church and his role as a censor at Ellis Island during World War I.
Legacy and Memorials: Discussing the aftermath of the General Slocum disaster for St. Mark's Church, the establishment of memorials, and the ongoing efforts to keep the memory of the tragedy alive.
Memorable Quotes:
"Their legacies teach us that while we cannot change the past, we can shape our responses to it, finding ways to heal, connect, and contribute to the ongoing tapestry of human history." - Natalie Zett
In this episode, we commemorate the 120th anniversary of the General Slocum tragedy, which took place on June 15, 1904. We examine the profound impact this disaster had on families and communities, specifically focusing on the Haas family. The episode also explores the intriguing connection between historical tragedies and fictional narratives, using Jacqueline Winspear's Maisie Dobbs series as a lens to understand how we process grief and uncover hidden histories.
Key Points:
Introduction: Marking the 120th anniversary of the General Slocum disaster and its historical significance.
Comparison with Eastland Disaster: Recap of the eerie similarities between the General Slocum disaster and the Eastland disaster, both involving tragic loss of life among working-class immigrant passengers.
Literary Reflection: Discussing historical fiction and the final Maisie Dobbs book by Jacqueline Winspear, "The Comfort of Ghosts." Exploring how fiction can offer perspective on personal grief.
Maisie Dobbs' Wisdom: Reading a passage from "Pardonable Lies" by Jacqueline Winspear, highlighting the importance of mental flexibility and viewing evidence from fresh angles to uncover connections in seemingly unrelated cases.
Focus on St. Mark's Evangelical Lutheran Church: Examining the role of St. Mark's in the General Slocum disaster and the lasting impact on its congregation.
Historical Context: Understanding the German immigrant neighborhood known as Klein Deutschland in New York City and its cultural significance.
The Haas Family's Story: In-depth look at the Haas family, including Pastor George Christian Frederick Haas, his son George Christian Otto Haas, and their personal and professional journeys post-disaster.
Spiritual and Religious Transformations: Exploring George Haas Jr.'s shift from his Lutheran roots to founding the Universalist Spiritualist Church and his role as a censor at Ellis Island during World War I.
Legacy and Memorials: Discussing the aftermath of the General Slocum disaster for St. Mark's Church, the establishment of memorials, and the ongoing efforts to keep the memory of the tragedy alive.
Memorable Quotes:
"Their legacies teach us that while we cannot change the past, we can shape our responses to it, finding ways to heal, connect, and contribute to the ongoing tapestry of human history." - Natalie Zett
Hello, I'm Natalie Zett and welcome to Flower in the River. This podcast, inspired by my book of the same name, explores the 1915 Eastland disaster in Chicago and its enduring impact, particularly on my family's history. We'll explore the intertwining narratives of others impacted by this tragedy as well, and we'll dive into writing and genealogy and uncover the surprising supernatural elements that surface in family history research. Come along with me on this journey of discovery. Hey, this is Natalie, and welcome to episode 66 of Flower in the River podcast. Today is a special day, a special day. It's June 15th 2024 as I record this, but June 15th 1904 is the 120th anniversary of the General Slocum tragedy. In the last episode, we talked about the eerie similarities between the General Slocum disaster and the Eastland disaster, both marked by tragic loss of life, working-class immigrant passengers and, most importantly, their unfortunate obscurity in history. In this episode, we will continue our conversation on the General Slocum by sharing some stories about a particular family that was deeply affected that day. I wanted to take a moment to remember and honor them on this important date, and next week, of course, we'll return to the Eastland Disaster, since we're getting closer to its anniversary. But first let me talk about the Comfort of Ghosts. Well, I would love to name this podcast after that title. That's actually the title of the final Maisie Dobbs book by author Jacqueline Winspear, and I would say, all of us who are fans of the Maisie Dobbs series. Well, we're all in a place of deep mourning at this point. You know, sometimes, from the safe distance of time, we can look at our own grief with perspective, and a lot of my genealogist friends years ago kept telling me about these Maisie Dobbs books.
Natalie Zett:
I'll admit I was skeptical. I mean, what could a fictional British woman noticed for her intellect while working as a teenage servant have to do with genealogy? Well, maisie, mentored by the mysterious Maurice Blanche, came of age during World War. I lied about her age to serve as a nurse in a casualty clearing station in France and was severely wounded. What really hooked me, though, was how Maisie sets up shop as a psychologist and investigator after the war. She digs into the past, unearths secrets and connects the dots.
Natalie Zett:
Much like what we do as genealogists, her work involves piecing together fragmented histories, understanding personal stories and bringing forgotten details to light. Does that sound familiar to anyone? It's this deep dive into personal and historical mysteries that resonates with all of us who work on behalf of the departed. It didn't take me long to figure that one out. And those 18 books that are part of the Maisie Dobbs series, they're all beautifully narrated by Orla Cassidy series. They're all beautifully narrated by Orla Cassidy and they were a lifeline during the pandemic for me and many of us. They anchored and inspired me and if you haven't read them, give them a chance because they might just do the same for you. Why I'm going into all this detail? Hang in there. Because I'm going to read a passage from one of the books which is called Pardonable Lies. It fits what's happening here with the Eastland and the General Slocum.
Natalie Zett:
Here Maisie's teacher and mentor explains to Maisie why he sometimes treats seemingly unrelated cases as if they are connected. He describes it as a matter of serendipity, where considering one case from a different perspective can reveal unexpected connections. Maurice emphasizes the importance of mental flexibility and viewing evidence from fresh angles. He suggests that this approach can uncover small but crucial pieces of information that break through obstacles in one or both cases. It is a question of serendipity, maisie. Yes, of course the cases have nothing to do with each other on the surface, but here's the link In considering the one case, we have to stand in another place, look at our evidence from a fresh angle.
Natalie Zett:
Without a doubt, that is a challenge for us. We come to our work with a history, a language, a way of doing things in this world that is uniquely ours and we can be stuck with it. But in that moment another case comes along that demands our mental athleticism. And look again. Then it comes, that one similarity, that small grain of intelligence that breaks the block in one or both cases, or the task of asking questions, of peeling back layers of the past, reveals something that has nothing to do with the cases and everything to do with ourselves. Do you understand? Do you understand? And that is from Pardonable Lies by Jacqueline Winspear, another Maisie Dobbs mystery, and I hope you see where I'm going with this. Let's dive into today's story. There are countless tales from the General Slocum tragedy, given that over 1,000 people lost their lives that day.
Natalie Zett:
Today I want to focus on St Mark's Evangelical Lutheran Church, which sponsored this picnic-turned-disaster. Why? Well, although I've explored many religions tied to my own ancestors, I was raised in my mother's Lutheran church, which had a strong, strong German influence. I got deeply involved in the Lutheran community, attending one of its Concordia colleges and eventually graduating from Luther's Seminary. As the result of growing up in this tradition and spending significant time in its educational institutions, I understand not just the faith's tenets but also its culture, very colorful culture and customs. I wanted to apply this lens to the history of this particular church. One tradition that stands out is one that Lutherans often call the Lutheran dynasties. Now, that's probably not spoken of outside the Lutheran community, but these are informal yet significant traditions where many Lutheran families for generations are church workers or pastors. And, unlike the Eastland disaster, which happened during a company-sponsored picnic, the Slocum excursion was a church-sponsored picnic. So let's talk about that context and what makes this special.
Natalie Zett:
St Mark's Lutheran Church this is in New York was located in Little Germany. At that point it was called Little Germany and it was known as Klein Deutschland, and it was sometimes called Dutch Town by contemporary non-Germans. If you've ever heard of Pennsylvania Dutch, it's not actually Dutch, it's German. So it's this type of thing that Americans would hear Dutch where Deutsch was being said. So Little Germany or Klein Deutschland in New York City, this was a German immigrant neighborhood on the lower left east side of Manhattan and if you think of the Lower East Side. Now you're probably not thinking of Germans, but in 1845, little Germany was already the largest German-American neighborhood in New York. By 1855, its German population had more than quadrupled. So the demography of the neighborhood began to change in the late 19th century as non-German immigrants settled in the area and a steady decline of Germans among the population was accelerated after 1904 when the General Slocum disaster decimated the social core of the population with the loss of over 1,000 lives.
Natalie Zett:
But stepping forward, I want to share an obituary from 1964, so that's 60 years after the General Slocum. This obituary is from the record in Hackensack, new Jersey, october 10, 1964. It is the obituary for the son of the pastor of St Mark's Lutheran Church in New York, dr George Haas. Church founder, hackensack. Dr George Christian Otto Haas, 81, founder of his own church, died yesterday at his home at 58 Euclid Avenue. Dr Haas was a well-known linguist, able to translate 14 languages into English. He was once employed by the Dutch government to translate Queen Juliana's speeches into English. Dr Haas founded the Universalist Spiritualist Church more than 30 years ago. According to his wife, mrs Beulah Haas, the church has about 1,000 members in North and South America and in Europe. He was a director of the World Fellowship of Faiths, founded in 1924 by a follower of Gandhi. Dr Haas wrote a book expounding his views on the subject the Fellowship of Faith, essence of All Religions. Dr Haas received a PhD degree in Oriental Languages in 1909 from Columbia University and in the years following was a teacher and translator both for Columbia and the US State Department. He had been a local resident for five years. His wife is his only survivor. Funeral services will be held on Monday.
Natalie Zett:
We have so much to unpack with this one, but let's start with spiritualism. And no, the Universalist Spiritualist Church is not a branch of the Lutheran Church. Okay, but I'm going to have to break this down so I understand it, and then, when I understand it, so I understand it, and then, when I understand it, hopefully you will. So the history of this church is quite, I don't want to say, murky, but depending on what you read or who you talk to, you can get some different versions. But here's what I have found.
Natalie Zett:
Spiritualism began in 1848 in Rochester, new York, where these two sisters, the Fox sisters, said that they could communicate with spirits, and that's a very complicated history. But anyway, long story short, out of this initial experience with the Fox sisters, the religion of modern spiritualism. It probably was always there, but this aspect of it, this branch of it, was developed and became very popular and many people were drawn to it. What's interesting is that many of these early spiritualism pioneers were also ardent abolitionists and supporters of women's and Native American indigenous peoples' rights. I want to discuss one of these early spiritualism churches. The Church of the Spirit was founded in 1897 by Reverend Frank Joseph and was known at the time as Bund der Wahrheit. Yes, that's German, which means band of truth. In 1915, the society purchased the present church building from the Evangelical Free Church and the name Chapel of the Spirit was adopted. So we're going to go back to Chicago, since in 1928, the church was registered in Cook County as the Church of the Spirit of Logan Square and the name was changed to its present title, the Church of the Spirit, in 1944. And that church is still going today. So, as you can see, there are many people, including our Dr Haas, who claimed to found one of these churches. But we're going to continue.
Natalie Zett:
I'll talk about the universalist component in a bit, but because there's so much to this, I just wanted to give you time to let this sink in. So what is missing from Reverend George Haas's obituary? A lot. There's no mention of his father, reverend George Christian Frederick Haas, who was the pastor of St Mark's Lutheran Church. It was that church that sponsored the ill-fated boat excursion picnic that became known as the General Slocum Disaster or the General Slocum Tragedy. George Christian Frederik Haas, now that's George's father, will refer to him as George Senior. He was born in 1854 in Philadelphia. His father was born in Germany and his father was a Lutheran church worker. So George Senior's brother, john, was also a pastor in New York City. Later John became the president of Mullenberg College in Allentown, pennsylvania. He was also a leader of the General Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in North America and he also authored numerous theological books.
Natalie Zett:
I share all this with you to give you a feel for who this family was. There is also a sister called Emma, and this is from her biography on Find a Grave Quote. Emma survived terrible injuries received in the General Slocum disaster in 1904 and wed William in 1906. William's first wife, sophia Hansen, tetemore and child, had died in the Slocum tragedy, along with other members of the Haas and Tetimore families. Do you see how all of this kind of winds around the General Slocum and it gets worse, unfortunately. So Emma, who is the sister of George and John Haas, lost her life in a house fire in Stroudsburg, pa, while visiting her brother, john, who was at that point the president of Mullenberg College.
Natalie Zett:
But there's more. Unfortunately, in George Jr's obituary there's no mention of his mother, anna Katerina Sophia Hansen, who died on the General Slocum. There's no mention of his 12-year-old sister, gertrude Haas, also a victim of the General Slocum. Now George was 21 when the General Slocum tragedy happened Not a child, but a young adult. In George Jr's obituary there's no mention of the General Slocum tragedy. There's no mention of the generations of Lutheran pastors and educators in his family tree. Was it just the General Slocum tragedy that set George Jr on his course to explore things outside of the faith in which he was raised? But there's more. This article in the New York Tribune on July 16, 1904, so that's a month after the General Slocum disaster victims.
Natalie Zett:
They accused the General Slocum Relief Committee appointed by Mayor McClellan of neglecting their financial aid applications and failing to pay Undertaker's bills. Only 15 out of 250 applicants received full payment for Undertaker's bills, despite claims from the committee that they already spent $35,000 and paid 400 bills. The Reverend Mr Haas and that would be George Jr's father, a pastor for the affected congregation defended the committee, stating there was no grounds for complaints and the committee was diligent in its work. He suggested that some applicants were turned down because they already received insurance money or didn't need additional funds. George Haas that's George Haas Jr, whose obit I just read the Reverend's son, echoed his father's sentiments, adding that many applicants were not genuinely in need and that the committee was not allowing anyone to exploit the disaster for financial gain. He also mentioned that some cases were still being processed due to the heavy workload, but this group of people was complaining that they weren't being paid quickly enough. And I'd say again for 1904, they were doing a very good job enough and I'd say again for 1904, they were doing a very good job. Nonetheless, the survivors expressed dissatisfaction with the relief efforts and threatened to take legal action if redress wasn't provided, demanding the committee show its financial records. That's the end of that article and I'm sure that there was probably some follow-up action, but we need to do a little more research to find out what happened there. So the pastor, his son and other family members had to bury a wife and mother and daughter and sister and other family members and sister and other family members, and he had to deal with that grief and that loss while being the pastor of this church and while having to address the complaints of this group of people. I don't know about you, but for me this would be a really tough pill to swallow.
Natalie Zett:
The disaster decimated the congregation, as many of those who perished were members of St Mark's. This loss created an overwhelming sense of grief and mourning within the church community. I have been looking for the original roster or church records for this particular church, but I've not been able to find it because I wanted to see how many members did they actually have at the time of the General Slocum disaster. So the congregation never did regain its footing. It struggled to recover from the loss of so many members, but the attendance dwindled and the church found it challenging to maintain its previous activities and programs. They wanted to escape the painful memories and start life anew elsewhere, and this further reduced the congregation's size. The church faced tremendous financial difficulties due to the loss of many contributing members, and St Mark's and the surrounding community established memorials to honor the victims of the General Slocum disaster. One notable memorial is the Angels of Peace Memorial Fountain in Tompkins Square Park.
Natalie Zett:
St Mark's dissolved and it merged with another Lutheran church in New York City and the population just scattered and honestly, it takes a little bit more research than I've had time to do to figure out the entire history of the different people who were affected by the General Slocum disaster. But Pastor Haas stayed with this church and then he eventually joined the combined church, but what happened to him after that? Well, that's going to take a little bit more research. And now we need to switch gears again and I want to return to this particular church that George Jr founded, the Universalist Spiritualist Church, and I want to give additional background about this, as well as repeat what I shared earlier, because it is new for most people and is a little bit convoluted and perhaps difficult to understand. At least, that was how I found it when I was doing the initial research. And the main reason for my doing all of this explanation and re-explanation is it is such a dramatic departure from the faith in which George Jr was raised, so we'll revisit universalism.
Natalie Zett:
Universalism emerged in the late 18th century in America, although its roots can be traced back to earlier European theological traditions. It was primarily a Christian theological perspective that held belief in universal salvation, the idea that all souls will ultimately be reconciled with God and saved, rejecting the concept of eternal damnation. Let's just say that's a little bit different than the Lutheran Church. Okay, and now I want to revisit the topic of spiritualism. Some of this will be a repeat, but I know in the case of new information, repetition can be helpful.
Natalie Zett:
Spiritualism also began in the mid-19th century in the United States, and it was characterized by the belief in communication with the spirits of the dead. The movement gained momentum with the Fox Sisters in New York in 1848, and the key concepts for spiritualism are mediumship this is the practice where individuals known as mediums claim to communicate with the spirits and spirit guides. Many spiritualists believe in spirit guides, benevolent spirits who provide guidance and wisdom, and the Universalist Spiritualist Church represents a blending of these two movements, although maybe from our perspective it might seem a bit unusual. But it became a powerful force and still is around, and it is typically seen in certain congregations that emerged in the late 19th and early 20th century. The late 19th and early 20th century, and these churches combined the universalist emphasis on universal salvation and the inherent worth of all individuals, with the spiritualist practices of mediumship and communication with the spirits. There you have it. At one point, though, there was a split of sorts that happened with various ones of these churches. Again, I'm not quite sure how that all came about, but I do know that folks that were involved in the Universalist Church eventually united with the Unitarian Church, and the Unitarian church refers to itself officially as the Unitarian Universalist church, but affectionately they call themselves the UUEs. I know that because several of their folks also attended Luther Seminary when I was a student, and they're still going strong.
Natalie Zett:
If you want to do a family tree of these particular denominations, it really is quite different and, as you remember from the opening reading from Maisie Dobbs, these two unrelated things did indeed come together at one point and created this new organization of seemingly contradictory thoughts or viewpoints. Although it is very challenging to try to create a biography from an individual who left some information but, honestly, did not leave a lot of information, it still is possible to take a look at those historical artifacts, if you want to call them that, and reconstruct bits and pieces of a life. Again, as a reminder, these are sketches that I'm creating. These are not full-blown bios, and I call them sketches because they literally are based on bits and pieces of information that I'm able to locate that are publicly available, but I do want to take a compassionate look at George Haas Jr. So, in summary of his life, he was part of St Mark's Lutheran Church, where his dad was pastor, and he was there when the General Slocum disaster happened, and it affected not just the congregants but George's own family. He lost his mother and his sister, and I should add, too, that his father, who was also aboard the General Slocum, was severely injured, and then his father was under attack from people who claimed that money was owed to them. So George Jr's later life choices well, they seem like a 360-degree departure from his Lutheran roots. But are they really? But are they really? We're going to move from 1904 to 1918, and we're going to take a look at George Jr's draft card, and this reveals much about his life and the trajectory that he was about to take.
Natalie Zett:
In 1918, george Christian Haas that's George Jr was working as a censor that's C-E-N-S-O-R at Ellis Island. What did that mean? George Haas's role involved responsibilities related to monitoring and controlling communications during a critical time in American history. Here's an overview of what his role likely entailed. The United States was involved in World War I from 1917 to 1918. During this period, national security and immigration were closely monitored, especially at major entry points like Ellis Island. Ellis Island served as the primary immigration station in the United States, processing millions of immigrants. With the war ongoing, there were heightened concerns about espionage, subversion and loyalty of immigrants.
Natalie Zett:
As a censor, george Christian Haas would have been responsible for overseeing the content of communications, particularly those sent and received by immigrants and others passing through Ellis Island. This included letters, telegrams and other forms of correspondence. The primary goal was to permit the transmission of sensitive or potentially harmful information that could pose a threat to national security. This involved checking for coded messages, subversive content or any communication that could be linked to enemy activities. Sensors also played a role in screening and controlling the flow of information to ensure it complied with wartime regulations. This might have included ensuring that messages did not contain misinformation or propaganda that could undermine the war effort or public morale. In order to do this job, you had to be really smart. Okay, you had to have extreme mad linguistic skills, because this role would have required a good understanding of multiple languages. Given the diverse origins of the immigrants at Ellis Island, and censors needed to exercise discretion and good judgment in determining what constituted a threat or suspicious communication, balancing national security concerns with the rights of individuals. Immigrants faced increased scrutiny during this period, with censors playing a key role in monitoring their communication. This could affect their ability to communicate freely with family and friends. In summary, this role was essential in preventing the spread of sensitive information and ensuring that immigration processes did not compromise the country's wartime efforts.
Natalie Zett:
So, as you can hear from what's happened to George Haas Jr since 1904 until 1918, he is quite an extraordinary person, not just his intelligence, his own brilliance, but what he did with it. He continued serving, maybe not in the capacity of a church worker at that point, but he had a spirit of service and he had some very unique abilities that most of us do not possess. In the wake of all of these events, it appears that George Haas Jr underwent a significant spiritual transformation. The loss and subsequent crisis of faith that may have led him to seek new spiritual paths that could provide solace and understanding and meaning and his quest. This is purely conjecture, but George's quest for spiritual answers and a more inclusive theology eventually led him to embrace universalism, which offered a comforting belief in universal salvation, and spiritualism which provided a means to communicate with the spirits of his lost loved ones. This is not uncommon. Spiritualism actually had quite a revival during World War I when so many lost so many, not just in the United States but from what I learned from the Maisie Dobbs books, particularly in Great Britain, in England, where they lost so many people. When I step back a little bit, it's easy to say well, george lost so many people so he wanted to be able to communicate with them. But I'm willing to bet that, based on George's history, despite the horrific loss, he seems to be drawn more toward the universalist side of the equation of the universalist spiritualist church, not to say he discounted spiritualism. For example, he was very influenced by Gandhis and he was drawn to many other cultures and many other languages. And I'm not sure when George married, but he did marry and by 1942, his wife, beulah, is named in his draft registration. They had no children.
Natalie Zett:
The way George Jr wanted to be remembered is in this obituary a young man who lost his mother and sister and so many other family members in the General Slocum disaster, faced the collapse of his community and the intense scrutiny of his father's leadership. Despite these overwhelming and cruel challenges, george charted a new spiritual path, a new spiritual path embracing universalism and spiritualism. His journey speaks to the transformative power of grief and the pursuit of solace and meaning beyond conventional boundaries. And his later founding of this church. Unfortunately, I don't have a ton of details about it. It seems as if he couldn't help it. Because of his early background, I think he was almost programmed to be of service to other people. George did it his way.
Natalie Zett:
However, hobbes, although a fictional character, she very much mirrors the journey of transformation through her own wartime experiences and post-war endeavors as a psychologist and investigator. Her work in piecing together fragmented histories and uncovering hidden truths resonates with the genealogist's mission, much like George's own quest for understanding and connection after his family's tragedies. Both George and Maisie, through their respective paths, demonstrate how confronting and understanding the past, and understanding the past, whether through spiritual exploration or investigative rigor, can lead to a deeper appreciation of the present and a commitment to contributing positively to the future. As we remember, the General Slocum tragedy today, june 15, 2004,. Tragedy Today, june 15, 2004. I'd like to also honor the wounds, the grief, the resilience and strength exemplified by individuals like George Haas and the fictional yet profoundly impactful Maisie Dobbs. Their legacies teach us that, while we cannot change the past, we can shape our responses to it, finding ways to heal, connect and contribute to the ongoing tapestry of human history.
Natalie Zett:
Thanks for joining me on this reflective journey, and as I get more information about the Haas family particularly, as well as the general slocum, I will post it on my website. So make sure you check that out every so often, because information is always flowing and it's always changing In the meantime. Thanks for hanging in there with this story and I hope you have a great week and I will talk to you again next week. Hey, that's it for this episode and thanks for coming along for the ride. Please subscribe or follow so you can keep up with all the episodes, and for more information, please go to my website, that's wwwflowerintherivercom. I hope you'll consider buying my book, available as audiobook, ebook, paperback and hardcover, because I still owe people money, and hardcover because I still owe people money and that's my running joke. But the one thing I'm serious about is that this podcast and my book are dedicated to the memory of all who experienced the Eastland disaster of 1915. Goodbye for now, thank you.