Paul Dolan - Life after Principalship

This week’s episode featured Paul Dolan an educator with over 30 years of experience as a teacher, leader and school principal most recently at Ilam School in Christchurch where he has just stepped down following 10 very successful years.

He is currently working on his MBA and recently gained a Postgraduate Certificate in Strategic Leadership.

In 2017 he became a certified professional coach (ACC) with the International Coach Federation (ICF) and works with a range of individuals from a variety professions to help them develop and improve their self-awareness, knowledge and capabilities as they move towards specific goals.

Paul shares his journey from, sporty but not academic, kid in Southland, New Zealand to   teacher, prinicpal and now business owner.

Links

• Discover Hero for Schools
• Follow Hero on Twitter @Heroforschools
• Follow Paul on Twitter @sibsonp
• Connect with Hero on LinkedIn

The Education Heroes Podcast is hosted by Paul Sibson, Co-founder and CEO of Hero.

If you know a heroic leader in the education space, or would like to share your own leadership journey with listeners, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us at podcast@linc-ed.com.

Transcript

Episode 1 - Paul Dolan

Paul Dolan: Every principal should have a coach, and there's plenty of occupations that's just a standard part of what you're doing. And if you want your principal to get better, they've gotta reflect on themselves and their own practice.

And that takes time

Paul Sibson: Welcome to season one of the education heroes podcast. I'm your host Paul Sibson. And as a former principal who has moved into the commercial world. I am in the very fortunate position of meeting and talking with educators from around the world and I want to share some of those stories and conversations with a wider audience each week, I'll be interviewing a school leader or education professional.

This week's episode features Paul Dolan, an educator with over 30 years of experience as a teacher leader in school principal. Most recently at Ilam school in Christchurch, where he's just stepped down following 10, very successful years. He's currently working on his MBA, and recently gained a postgraduate certificate of strategic leadership. In 2017, he became a certified professional coach with the international coach Federation. And worked with a range of individuals from a variety of professions to help them develop and improve their self-awareness knowledge and capability as they move towards. towards specific goals. 

Thank you very much for joining me, Paul.

Paul Dolan: It's a pleasure, Paul. Nice to be here.

Paul Sibson: One of the reasons I really wanted you to get you on the show was, you've been through that. Interesting journey of transitioning out of the education sector and I know that lots of people, listening will be interested in your story around, how that came about, why that came about  and, people will be possibly looking at them their next step in their career and how they do that.

it's a  high interest topic at the moment. So I'll be interested to talk to you a little bit about that. but before we get to that, can you just tell us a little bit about your. Go back a few years. And tell us about your own school journey when you went to school, way back in the, whenever that was

Paul Dolan: Yeah, that was a long time ago, the 1980s, secondary school and seventies primary. Um, yeah, so school for me was interesting. I struggled,  I loved primary school. Primary school was fun. grew up in uh, rural Southland. there was lots of out outdoor stuff and trips and I don't, I'm sure there weren't any Rams or anything like that.

We just piled into a bus and went to the beach and, you know, jumped in the water and yeah, that's Yeah. Everyone seemed to come back. I think that, assume they did a head count. So loved primary school and then secondary school was interesting. I enjoyed lots of parts of my secondary schooling, but academic, I didn't see myself as an academic.

And so I, and you know, they. It was either you understood it or you didn't. Um, there wasn't, I can't recall any group work or anything like that. So that became, and I, it was boarding school as well. So there was lots of, there was lots of opportunities to be academic if I wanted, but sort of sport and those things took priority.

So, but I, I think the big thing for, I didn't see myself as. An academic or, or as a learner, I guess, in today's terms. and so scraped through,and just scraped through, and it wasn't until my final year of school, that I started that the pieces started coming together. and I actually started.

Enjoying learning. and for that, and so, you know, surprise, surprise grades started improving, and kind of started it. Wasn't just a regurgitation of facts. It was,the discussion. So really enjoyed my final, what, you know, year 13 now.

Paul Sibson:  

Paul Dolan: sorry,what changed was it? Was that a teacher that made a difference? Was it a change in the system? was it from within you.

probably a little bit of everything. it was quite a small secondary school, so I had a couple of quite influential teachers at that stage. And, so boarding school. You got to know some of the teachers, uh, probably closer than day pupils. Um, they would, some of them would do duty in the boarding house.

And so there, and I think maturity as well, played a big part of it in rural Southland at that stage for me, even going to university, I, none of my. had ever been to university. So future learning or tertiary education simply wasn't really something you did. it wasn't even something you considered.

So lots of, lots of my friends who were, very academic left school in the, after the fifth form and went back and worked on the family farm. so it was that sort of environment really where. . and there were some really bright people who did fantastic things. I guess I probably wasn't in the, the group.

was a big part of.

So then flying on from that. what changed that led then led you down the path of becoming an educator yourself?

Yeah, so it sort of fell into education. It certainly wasn't one of those things that, you know, you hear some people say and I feel a wee bit guilt. Well, I felt a wee bit guilty, I guess when I was teaching and, you know, people saying, oh, I've always wanted to be a teacher since I was, God, I just sort of fell into it really.

I initially, when I. And my final year of school was, wanted to get into broadcasting and particularly radio. And I was desperate to do that. And unfortunately, in those days with New Zealand broadcasting corporation, I think it was they had a cadetship and I didn't get accepted. Um, and that was about October and I was absolutely devastated.

I.

Paul Sibson:

Paul Dolan: that was what I was going to do. And, and a teacher suggested it must have been, I guess, a wee bit earlier, because if I think of the process, but suggested that I go teaching, I was like a house captain at school and it led sports teams and, and different things like that. And I, I guess he saw my potential working with people.

Um, and I enjoyed, I did enjoy that working with the younger kids at school and sort of leading. Um, leading others. Um, and so I thought, well, I could go back to the farm and, but that was too much like hard work. So I thought, well, I'll go to Dunedin and, and go to teacher's college. And really, it was only going to be a short stint with the idea of doing some voluntary work at the radio station, local in Dunin.

And and. Then hopefully been accepted on that cadet ship the following year.

Paul Sibson: Um, but then stuck with the teaching after that kind of got into it and, and stayed through and.

Paul Dolan: yeah. And, and really enjoyed it. And each Dunedin, university of Vigo. So. The, the teacher's college was separate in those days. So this is 1985, thereabouts, three to 88. Um, the teacher's college was, was separate from the university as such but virtually everyone. And it was one of the few in the country at the time.

You just did your degree at the same time. So you did two years at teachers college and you did some university papers at the same time. And then in your third year you went to university full. Um, and then you came back and basically end of that third year, you'd all, but completed your degree. And then you finished off your diploma of teaching and I was really enjoying it.

And I went to my my third year I went to the, uh, PE school at the university of Otago. And did, I don't know, stage two, perhaps some stage three papers there, but really missed teaching, really missed the teaching side of it. And that was kind of the pivotal, pivotal. Of that, because even up till then, I wasn't sure if I'd really go teaching, maybe I'd do something else or you know, get my degree and then venture somewhere else.

Um, but I really missed teaching and, and was fortunate to get into some really good schools initially. And when I graduated and just enjoyed it more and more,

Paul Sibson: So you, you said you weren't the that teacher wanted to be a teacher and you weren't, weren't sort of had, didn't calling, but then quite quickly moved, moved into leadership. So did you, did you, have the that? Was that something that you early on in your career thought that's principalship is where I want to go.

Paul Dolan: Yeah. It, it was, I, I remember. Um, so I taught for three years and then Kath Kath and I, we went overseas at and did our OE. But I remember before we leaving, being quite in knowledge, and by that stage, I was going to teach overseas. I'd, you know, I, I going to be a and I'd had a really fortunate experience of being a team leader in my third year of teaching.

Um, and I I think there were two others in the team. Um, it. Good luck more than anything that, that the other two probably didn't want to do it. Um, so I filled that role, but really enjoyed the challenge of it. Um, and they were, they were, two older guys and they were, you know, they'd could be enough rope rope just before I hung myself, basically.

And then they'd say, look, son, you should probably try this, you know? Um, but I really enjoyed that opportunity and, and thought, yeah, I definitely want to be a teacher. 

Paul Sibson: And did you find that often you know, we have have a education. I feel that the, the, the. best teachers end up moving into into, principalship and not the, uh, the training or the understanding of how quite, how different that role is being a teacher and being in the classroom.

Did you, how did you find that transition from, from being in the classroom day to day and having through to actually doing all the things that a principal does, which are quite quite a different skill set.

Paul Dolan: Yeah, I had a really, I was really fortunate that my, my my uh, progress, as a deputy and I 10 years in three different schools as a DP and started small, uh, five teacher school. that there was a, there was no release or anything like that in those Um, and you, I'm not now, Paul Uh imagine um, Yeah, that yeah, I off doing just, it was on top of your teaching load and my second school, which was Thorrington school here in Christchurch. And that was, I think there were about 15 teachers at that stage. There was still, there was no release. I, I, I, managed to, uh, talk principal at that stage.

I I got towards the end of that stage of having a day, a term release for admin. So. Um, and, and, I, yeah, I can't remember the, I had a feeling, he went into my classroom, the principal went into my classroom to release me for that, that was, and then, then uh, I, I went to a walking DP role at Elmwood school and that was the first sort of stage of really, I was still sheltered a lot.

And I think that struck me when I became that walking DP of GE there's a role that I hadn't experienced before, as a, as a full-time with a full-time teaching load. Um, it was really leading teams. You, you weren't certainly, there was nothing strategic that, that I was dealing with or, really even parents apart from the parents in your.

Uh, it was quite a different it? You know, it doesn't seem that long ago, but it was, it's quite different now with, uh, what team leaders have to, deputy principals their responsibilities. So, but it was over that year period. It allowed me to, to grow and make lots and lots of But I was fortunate to have ended up four principals in the three schools over that time and, and have fantastic mentors. Who really encouraged me, but I could see the way they worked. And, and I knew where I was that I wanted to be a principal. So I took lots of notes of what, what I would I would do and what I'd do differently. Um, before securing my first was position

Paul Sibson: So speaking of that, when you, when you moved into that first principal's did you feel prepared for it? Were you, were you ready for it? Were you well, well prepared as a, as an educator. Um, I, it was, yeah, there was a lot of things that, uh, you know, I did actually, I, I Val school, uh, in Christchurch, the role around two 50 ish, I think at that stage. Um, and I coming from Elmwood, which was around 500, so quite a big school, there were we had two walking stage.

And so I was quite prepared, but there's, there's, a big step to, uh, when you finally, decision and it's, you are in the hot seat and there's no, there's no, one there to it's people, you can run that but it's your decision. It's not, you are not offering that, that support or that opinion.

Um, and that's the thing I noticed the most. So it took while settle into that.

that was the, the, the, the biggest challenge you was that becoming the, the buck stops with me. And actually I make the decisions, like I can't turn around and look to someone else to do it for me.

I, I think the biggest challenge um, feeling comfortable in my own skin as a principal. And, and often look at admire, I guess, those that we admire, gee, you know, I'd like to be like that And so you sort of start, you're not. Authentic yourself. Um, and I think it took me a while to be very with who I was a as a principal.

And, and for that, that, that and be confident would be different approach to many others.

Do you think that's something that can be taught or is that something that just is its experience and it it's kind of comes from within.

Paul Dolan: It's a really good question. Um, I think you know, there's no substitute for experience, so. In that role. really to have a year's as an acting principal. Um, and, and so that was really good preparation around that. I think it is partly I I'm sure. I'm not sure. there's, you know, there's the theory. And then there's, the practice, with, with

Paul Sibson: Yeah, no, no subsidy for it is the.

Paul Dolan: that's it. Yeah. And it, and it's all very well to know what you should do. And. This model or that model and, and being it, but actually when the heat's on, you've got to be, you've gotta be able to look at yourself in the mirror.

And if, if you make a wrong decision put your hand up away. Um, and that, that just a bit of time, cuz that's a that's around I guess in a strength confidence that you're not going to get everything right. Uh, along the um Yeah, but okay. yourself with, with the best people around Do you think that you were able to, or, or do you think there's more that schools could do to support new leaders coming through, particularly in that deep team leader and then deputy principal role  to prepare them for principalship it. I'm not sure there's more schools could do. I I think schools. are aren't

Paul Sibson: Yeah

Paul Dolan: place. And, and I they're busy places. they, they sure And, and everyone is at sort of 120 to of capacity really. Um, but I something needs to happen. Um, and, the sooner, really to some sort of support around leadership it's been tried and, and for whatever um, You know, initiatives have been trialed and then pulled out and could be done and good is everything in a school.

Uh and so therefore it's in the, the best the best Um, so it's in the interest of the ministry of education or, or the government or whoever that sits with, I guess it is the government and the state system to, to create leadership and, and support for And and my, and, just on the way to principal. I think there's so much more that could be, you know, so much more that could be, school principals. Every principal should have a coach and plenty of occupations and um, that just a standard part what you're doing. if you want your principal to get better, they've gotta reflect on themselves and their own practice.

And that takes time know, people just don't. Um, so I'm, I'm fascinated by notion uh, how, what we can learn from education sector can learn from the commercial sector. Having moved myself from principalship in, into the commercial world. And now, now you've, you've, you've done a similar thing. Do, Do, what do you think we can, are there things that we can learn from, from the.

Paul Sibson: Commercial world from the business sector that would help with, with that. um, because I agree that you know, the need to principals particularly, but all leaders, time to reflect and time to move out of the, out of the guess, take, take time out to actually things

Paul Dolan: I, I think so. I think also the, principals as a profession also, Have to be kinder to themselves. Um, think there's, there's almost a manner or, or a, a um that you are always at or on site. um, and that, so that becomes very isolating that I, I.

principals as a group could do more. And, and I, gee, I'm my hand up first foremost as one of the poorest at that at that, because you get so bogged down with doing and what you're dealing with And, and I guess Kahui Ako, you know, they, they they may be doing that. been involved that. Um, so, so I don't know, happening more than what I realize it, it was, but I think that support is absolutely

Paul Sibson: Mm. So do you, you now, you've been, you had a little bit of time working with a, with a startup in, uh, It education, a, totally different environment and different experience. and having done something similar to myself, I really see the, the value the organization, whether it's a business or, or a school.

Being able to spend time working on the business rather than in the business And that's, that's a hard thing to do, particularly in a startup environment. I'm sure you've, you've witnessed over the last few Um, but also it it's something that becomes more more doable as you gain business experience. and worry that actually in schools, principals rarely gets to work on the because they're spending so much time working in the

organization. And just interested in your thoughts on, on whether that's something that's reflected in your experience. 

Paul Dolan: Um, undoubtedly I, wasn't really, I, I was doing the MBA at university and island school being right next door, provided some opportunities that many people wouldn't get in that I could go and. Over at the university. And I used to try and get over each Wednesday afternoon and the work that I got done and, and, uh, on on the business or on the school and sort of um, and I used to, I did used to look down sort of on the um, looking over from, from, from one of the buildings at, at And that was invaluable, but that's, that was really hard um, and sometimes you get called back because of an issue that's erupted um, whatever. But, but I used to be very deliberate about that. I was really to have a community that. were very accepting of that. And a number of those were working at the and they just saw that as normal.

Um, why, why wouldn't you do that? Um, as opposed to, why aren't you at. Um, that, that is absolutely critical. that, think. Um, and, and not be bogged down by what's going

Paul Sibson: Mm. I do think there's an within school And within principals themselves, that do that in That's my evening

Paul Dolan: Yeah, yeah. That's yeah.

That's

Paul Sibson: it, you know, it lowers its value massively. And

actually you do have to get outta school and, and physically a different place is, is a huge part of that.

Paul Dolan: That's right. Yeah.

Paul Sibson: And I do. I think a lot of that is, is a big cause of burnout, which we, we are seeing. Um, and, and which lots of, uh, school leaders across the world are experiencing. And we're seeing you know, a drain of, of, of out of the profession. Um, And I'm, I'm interested in, obviously you, you a long time as a principal. you certainly did your Um, but was, was burnout factor in your decision to, to transition out of it? Or was it more of, just the right time?

Paul Dolan: Um, No, not burnout as such the, the, you know, I certainly felt few um, became quite challenging. I think star, you know, the, earthquakes were in Christchurch were a big. A a but, but of late the, the Moser attack. a role of of 10 to 15% of our Um, two of her parents were killed in the Moser attacks. Um, just awful, awful things like that, that had a huge impact. And then COVID on the, on the back of that. I was certainly weary And um, doing my MBA at the same time added to that. But that was, that was my choice. So no, a, it was a deliberate. it was, a, time. I was sort of always toyed with doing something else as well. Um, and not not not leaving that. I didn't wanna have any um, of have had a crack at. um, so it, it wasn't so much burnout, but there  is, you know, I, was really fortunate at Ireland. It just an amazing, gorgeous Kids were be. um, and, and a terrific staff. Um, didn't have a lot of the the, pressures that many, many schools face from behaviors and those sort of things that can wear, wear people down. Uh, so I was fortunate, but I Um, I really worked at that as and deliberate and selfish at, at times around, making sure I was well, so it was, it was really to me my, uh, physical fitness was you know, was a priority me and that, you but that, was, at the start of the day for me Um, but, but that was a commitment that I made if I I was healthy and And fit then, then I would be mentally in, in a space lead

Paul Sibson: Absolutely.

and I don't think that's, that's selfish at all. I think that's, that's and hopefully more, more principals take that on board that because it, and it's not just the physical, it's the looking yourself mentally well. And I don't think that time out of school is part of that.

It is. Part of that sort of whole regime of, of looking after yourself. So would you say that you had, you had an exit plan for as once you sort of Oh perhaps coming to the end of my time as a, as a school principal, did, did you have an exit plan and what did that look and how did you execute

Paul Dolan: Yeah. So I guess I did. And, and sometimes you, it's not, until you look back that you recognize the, the exit plan was. So I, I started off and, you know, stages of life of life when you can commit to these sort of things as well. But I did, did, uh, the coach. International coach, uh, through coaching and New Zealand.

And did three years of qualifying for that which is quite an involved and, and sort of dabble with the idea a coach. And then my, the the person who my Doing an MBA. Um, and initially we looked at Doing that by correspondence, I guess, through, different universities, but it didn't sit right with me that the university of Canterbury was right next Um, and, and why would I enroll for you know, the university of wherever? Um, so that, started off and that, was the, that postgrad certificate strategic They were the first six papers of. The MBA and I never, I enrolled for that. Never thinking I'd, I'd go on to do my, my MBA.

Um, probably a wee bit of imposter syndrome, there that, I couldn't possibly do that. Um, and the idea with those six papers, I was going do two a year over three years and what, that led to. Um, and I finished those six papers in 18 months. just loved them. They were Um, and, and the focus was around leadership and that was the And so know th self for a start, but then, and then know the impact. And I just let that up. It was just, wow, this amazing. Um, and really enjoyed that. And so I became inspired and so then enrolled to, to and complete my MBA which I'll do in fingers, crossed Paul in two months time when final final project together. Um, but. So, So, I suppose an exit strategy of sorts at the end of end of that. Um, when I started that. I wanted to have options at the end of it, that continued education or into something else, I wanted to have that choice. And I suppose there's retirement. Seems to get closer every year I also wanted to have that.

Paul Dolan: There's I I wish. Um, no, I don't wish actually, it's, uh wanted to have that option of being in control of that and and, and schools are very much an all or nothing type scenario. .Um, and I wanted to be in control of that as I got retirement. So, uh, once I get towards whatever age that I can work four days or three days or whatever you know, that I'm of that than, oh, gee, you're 65.

You if you don't wanna be a principal, what are you going to do? Um, and I guess there's the appraisal route or, uh, or sort of leadership, but that didn't really sit with. Um, so yeah, doing the MBA was a definite strategy, having options at the end of that process.

Paul Sibson: So when you, uh, came to the point where you made the decision that actually now is the time I'm gonna leave. Did, did you have something to go into or was that a bit of a leap of faith? And I, I will find something

Paul Dolan: Um, I was really, really fortunate. So I, well fortunate. I, also planned it as the, the, final part of the MBA is what they a consulting project. And most people do that within their own organization. Um, so I applied to the, through the ministry of education through a study to finish off my MBA.

That was my main focus. And you need so many points. And that gave me 20 weeks or something leave. Uh, so, so two terms, and as um, I had a connection through parent for a startup in, in Christchurch, and that was in sport, recovery technology. and that was so I wasn't definite about leaving. was just an opportunity to experience something different. Um, So officially, I was always coming back and I had that and I knew there any Of having work for the company, they're a startup, looking for investor funding and those sort of things. So I knew there was, wasn't a definite job at the end of that. Um, but I felt it was a, it was a good time to, sort of take that leap wee bit of a backstop in the background for that. and uh, towards the end term, one sort of a couple of weeks into term So I guess April. um, it suddenly thought, I, you know, I've, I've, path I've yeah, I can't, go back because if I back I'd I'd want to, it would probably another, year commitment to island or, or another, school. Um, and I didn't, that Right. So I, uh, uh, made the decision resign and form the score. I'd resigned. Without a job as such, so

Paul Sibson: That was a bit brave.

Paul Dolan: Um, yeah. Well you are stupid but it, but it was, yeah. And it's amazing as a result of that, it's that whole thing opportunities come your way. and I was, and I was really to be have a few job offers. and, and, I wasn't, I didn't want rush into that. So two guys who are doing the MBA and were consultancy invited me to work with them.

So that's what I've been doing. So, uh, for month and a bit, yeah, so that's, you know, we've, we've, you know, it's day to day it's very different from teaching. There's no guaranteed income or anything like that, but that's, that's terrific. I'm really enjoying that. And that's just problem solving. Um, and, and forming relationships. if you, you know, if you ever principal, you can do that.

Paul Sibson: Surely, how be? Was it, was that a, a, a big shock to the system moving into a you know, going into that startup world, where as you say, a lot of it's about finding investment and it's, it's kind of hustling Things move very quickly or, or don't move very quickly. and. then that can be very stressful. It's a very different world from the structured ordered world of a school where, you the bell rings and it becomes the, the time that you measure yourself by is that bell. Um, you find that a shock. Was that a difficult

Paul Dolan: No, it difficult. it um, at all, It was, a it was a very, enjoyable process. And. was, I was working as many hours. Um, I, I hadn't intended working as many hours as I was as a principal, but I ended up doing that. I just was fascinated by the business and wanted to, know, roll my sleeves up and get stuck in and help them as much as I could. Um, it's just the complexity of and when you, when you step outside that, and I used to it. I juggling two or three balls at once instead of 20. and, and, and that was the difference and I never had that same And I remember the the, end of term one. Um, someone said, oh, it's school holidays next know, when you, whatever, length of term is, they're always one week too long, rains those last, last couple it's, uh, and you're sort of dragging yourself through. You're exhausted. I used to avoid eye contact with by that stage it's, just get through and Yeah, Yeah, I I oh, is it okay? Yeah. And it just wasn't that same really, that was kind of a pivotal moment Um, so I mean, there's, there's lots of different challenges and trying to raise capital is, is not easy this climate at all.

Um, but again, it, it, my role was at the, wasn't the CEO or anything like that, so it wasn't the same complexity, it was, really, really enjoyable time. And I think that made that whole transition to carry on, was, was, very, very Mm. Do you think that was easier because you weren't you know, you'd come from effectively being the CEO of school position you, you weren't in that thing. Do you think that made it easier it was, you, didn't didn't have that same level of, expectation on on you, I guess. I think so. I, I, think so, but principals are often very driven and so we know, naturally we take on things. So, you know, there wasn't No, there wasn't that same pressure or demand that there was. so that make it easier. If I'd stepped into a CEO role could have been quite a different experience, Um

of that.

Paul Sibson: So we, we talked earlier a little bit about the fact that, uh, what be done, more things that could leaders moving into Do you think there are clear for who are looking to move out that actually they they've, they've done their time and they, they need a new challenge need to move on something else.

Do you think that there is a clear pathway to, for that, or do people need to, you know, sort of form an exit plan and do the kind of thing you'd, you know, go and do an MBA and actually, uh, force the issue that way.

Paul Dolan: Uh, people need to do that for themselves. There's no, There's no clear it If you want to carry on and educate, know, potentially there could be a pathway into the or. Um, ministry of education that is, or, or doing appraisal or, or those within education. I was to give things a crack outside of education. um, so from that perspective and rightly so, there shouldn't be a clear pathway. You know, no one, the ministry of shouldn't be for a pathway out of education. I don't, I but, but, I think we underestimate our skills and our ability and I that's one of the the MBA. taught me or has taught me around that, that people, you, you know, everyone's um, people in systems, they are the, they're the, two big you've got, got with. Um, in a nutshell, and, and schools do remarkably well with very, little and, was, that's. What really enjoyed is talking to my MBA colleagues. About their organizations and what they do. And it's very siloed at times and very separated as to who does what. Um, and so there is lots of opportunities, but as, as as a principal, because you do everything, but I we underestimate what we in that, the the fact that we we're responsible for employment, we're responsible for finance or property or you know, the many, many that, you know, that doesn't even get close to teaching and the and you So I, I and there, there.

could be something in. Around that, that are just, just shown what's possible, I Yeah.

Paul Sibson: no,

interesting. Isn't it? Cuz I mean, are as a principal, the CEO of a multimillion dollar company. often a pretty large staff to work with and you've got, you know, and money and uh, and a base it's, you know, it is very similar to being a CEO, but, but as you say, I it, we necessarily. We possibly undervalue the skillset required to do that, maybe because of the, I don't know, the pathway that people have gone through to get to that, or, uh, I don't quite know why, why that's the case, but I think it's probably true. Um, so I, if people are listening to this and they are in, in, in a principal's role and and, are thinking, or maybe but at some point in the next few years, I would like to try something different.

What, what would your advice be to them?

Paul Dolan: Uh, I think be deliberate about it and just, you know, try and grab some What, What, are some areas that you'd like to, if not in education, then, then what? Um, and for me that sort of started guess I sort of thought about those sort of things. And for me, it, it right. what what I don't want to do came quite easy. um, more I really to do. You D you know, you don't know what You Um, and of course you know, what organizations are out there, but also doing things I think, I think sort of look at other areas uh, outside of, what perhaps college of education are offering or, uh, those of things for me everything that I did in my MBA orbit one paper Uh, able to be trans, you know, there was sort of, we, we carry the and everything like that was centered all, but one paper, I was able to do that.

So everything was able to be centered to that. People are, I was the only one in education doing, uh, the MBA for most of the time I was doing it, uh, which I really enjoyed that, that having schooly there to of you're always look at other ways of doing things.

And how might take those learnings and put it on in your own workplace? Um, so look at, different approaches, different ways of, of what, how you might do things. Because just to the MBA that that benefited is school for the best part of five years we changed lots and lots of our systems and ways. um, operating I changed, I was a far better leader at the end of that time than I was at the start Um, our leadership team benefited as a result because of the learnings that took place. So there was of influence that, that we wouldn't have been exposed to. Um, Mm, that's really interesting. We, so, I mean, the other sort of string to. your bow is the coaching side of things. So presumably a coach and that, that helped well in, in those decisions and, and, being able to step back and look at yourself and think, well, actually, where, where do I want to go, uh, with my career next? Yeah, I think, yeah, undoubtedly having a coach to you think and reflect on yourself is, is really important, but the more you get into coaching and. um, reflecting, the more you start, what I found that I started doing that myself more about my I was, what, what was I going to do? Um, what, you want to carry on on teaching or for the next sort of 10, years?

Or did I want try else? Um, And that, that reflective part of that. And, and again, you need time to do that time and uh, and sometimes the crux

isn't it? there there isn't isn't that and people rush through. I think there's a wee bit of fear there that you know, I couldn't. um, I couldn't do anything else or, you know, what what if, what if, work out? Well I'm going into consultancy in March. I could be applying for principalship jobs again, if if it all you know, the, the only thing that'll be hurt there is my ego. And I'll just you know, front up to that.

But, but it's, you know, better to have tried and failed and not tried at Absolutely. so it's interesting, a couple you you've talked idea of, imposter syndrome or not feeling that you would be good enough to do. which, but I think that's a important point because actually and possibly longer people are in one industry, whether it's education or something else that that a.

Paul Sibson: More of a. problem that you think, well, you know, this, my lot. I, I couldn't do anything else. It would be too hard. But actually, as you said, that the skillset involved in being a principal is, is extremely transferable and, and can move into other realms. So what is next for you? Do you, it's obviously your very early days with this, the new consulting business.

Paul Dolan: So Yeah. to exit that just yet. not my choice. um, no, so that's, so the three of us, uh, our own business and doing business consultancy and, and I've got two amazing that are, are very clever and and, we'll work together to solve problems for really. that's what we'll so, you know, we'd like to build that up over time and I'm really looking forward to starting something scratch and, and also doing business consultancy. So that's what I've been doing for the the last sort of five weeks for a large corporation in canter. A loving it. um, yeah, really, really enjoyable. and it's, it's all those transferable skills that, that taken from that, that are used in, in the business and, just developing and talking to people and trying to work what's what's really going on. and how, how change process can be put in. So very, similar to a school. It very similar to running a school except the you know, the heat pump in room broken down or, know, a child's thrown up in room 17 and the caretakers on lunch break or, whatever, that hasn't happened yet. I give it time. Give it time. .Hey, Paul, thank you so much for your fascinating. I love talking to you. I always learned so much from you and then just love hearing your stories. It's uh, it's been fantastic. So thank you very much. it's a pleasure. Thanks,