The Psychology of Conflict: Healing Society from the Inside Out with Phyllis Leavitt

How do our personal relationships shape the way we engage with society? Can psychology offer solutions to the deep divisions we see today?

In this thought-provoking episode of The Scenic Route Podcast, host Jennifer Walter sits down with Phyllis Leavitt, acclaimed psychologist and author of America in Therapy: A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis. Together, they explore the powerful link between family dynamics and societal conflict—and how we can use psychology to heal division, foster understanding, and create lasting change.

🎧 Listen now and discover:
✅ How childhood experiences shape our approach to conflict
✅ Why the win-lose mindset fuels political and social divisions
✅ Practical techniques for improving communication and resolving disputes
✅ How self-awareness and personal responsibility can lead to collective healing
✅ Why therapy-based approaches are key to bridging ideological divides

Why This Episode Matters

In a world where polarization is at an all-time high, understanding the psychological roots of conflict is more important than ever. Whether you’re passionate about mental health, social justice, or personal growth, this conversation will equip you with tools to navigate difficult conversations, build deeper connections, and contribute to a more compassionate society.

"The goal must not be to decide who's right, but to learn how to listen." – Phyllis Leavitt

Join us on The Scenic Route for a journey towards a more connected and compassionate world.

Connect with Phyllis Leavitt
Website
YouTube

Dive deeper
Download her free PDF, The 6 Secrets to Repairing Relationships after Conflict

Her recent book
America in Therapy

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Chapters

• 0:00 Navigating Power in a Turbulent World
• 13:02 Family Dynamics and Personal Growth
• 22:51 Breaking the Win-Lose Paradigm
• 33:44 Promoting Nonviolent Communication and Conflict Resolution
• 40:10 Building Dialogue for Conflict Resolution
• 50:03 Healing Personal and National Trauma
• 1:00:46 Embracing Healing Conversations for Progress

Transcript

Jennifer Walter: 0:00

A humanitarian crisis in Sudan, a genocide in Gaza, the pollution by the fast fashion industry, an election coming up in the United States it's easy to feeling overwhelmed by the world at the moment. So hey, no, you're not alone. And this episode of the Scenic Route, my guest Phyllis and I were diving into the eye of the storm. We're going from our homes to the global stage. We'll explore how numbness become our go-to, on why it's time for a change. We'll uncover the unseen influences molding our thoughts and actions and warm our nod. As powerless as we feel, join us as we learn to create safety in an uncertain world, heal deep-seated wounds and move beyond the win-lose paradigm. Remember the best antidote to feeling powerless it's closer than you think. Tune in and ask yourself who do I really want to be? Your journey starts here. Hi, and welcome to the Scenic Route podcast, where we believe in embracing life's journey with purpose, curiosity and a bit of potty humor. I'm someone's uncool Mom, and I'm always looking out for that perfect slice of gluten-free rhubarb pie. Every week, I get the joy of sitting down with dreamers and doers who dare to take the road less traveled in pursuit of their own magic. Together, we dive into the inspiring stories of soulful entrepreneurs and visionary leaders who boldly share their beliefs, lessons and fuck-ups. Excited, so am I. You're exactly where you're meant to be, and now let's take this conversation off the beaten track.

Jennifer Walter: 1:34

Phyllis Leavitt has a master's degree in psychology and counseling from Antioch University. She co-directed the Parents United Sexual Abuse Treatment Program in Santa Fe, new Mexico, for two years and then went into private practice full-time. Phyllis has treated children, families, couples and individual adults for 34 years and has worked extensively with abuse and dysfunctional family dynamics, their aftermath and some of the most important elements of healing. She has written two previous books A Light in Darkness and Into the Fire. Her latest book, america in Therapy A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis, explores the roots of divisiveness and violence in America from a psychological point of view, with the goal of bringing the best of what heals relationships and restores us to safety into national conversation. Phyllis lives with her husband in Taos, new Mexico, and is now focusing on writing and speaking. New Mexico. And is now focusing on writing and speaking. Phyllis, welcome to the CineGroud podcast. How are you?

Phyllis Leavitt: 2:30

Well, I'm really good and I'm so happy to be here with you and thank you for having me.

Jennifer Walter: 2:41

Yeah, you're so welcome. It's really close to my sociologist heart, this conversation today. Right yeah, I've been thinking just with.

Jennifer Walter: 2:48

I mean, it was just the the president, the first presidential debate was just a few days ago, um, and I read someone on social media saying, oh, I'm not following that, like I'm kind of like not following what's going on the world, like it's too distressing, and I was like, on one hand, that's a lot of privilege if you can't exclude yourself from what's going on in the world. Um, and at the same time, I get that a lot of things that are going on in the news, what's going on in the world? Like I want to know how shit the situation is in sudan or in gaza, or what's going on in the us, like everything. We cannot exclude ourselves from society. We're part of it, we're part of the systems right and yet I thought myself okay, how, like?

Jennifer Walter: 3:52

what's your stand on this? Do you like follow, like you're like follow, or like follow with like precautions, which is always like follow with precautions?

Phyllis Leavitt: 4:00

yes, right or yeah, well, I you know I I'm a psychotherapist and I come from the world of understanding how we are impacted by our family systems and how we each, as individual, impact our family systems, and that happens on all different levels, whether it's your family of origin, your school, your business, your place of worship, your community, your state, your government or your place in the world. They're all family systems, and one of the underlying gifts of the family systems work that psychology now really embraces is that we're conditioned by what's happening around us. It affects us for better or for worse, and sometimes it's for better. If you're living in a supportive, encouraging, safe community that respects you and that wants to provide for your basic needs, great. And there's millions of people who don't have that, and there's people, many, many, many people here in the United States who don't have that from the largest institutions that we're subject to.

Phyllis Leavitt: 5:10

So, for me, I feel like, whether we want to know or not, we're impacted by it, and so, for myself, I'm sort of like you I feel like I need to know some.

Phyllis Leavitt: 5:25

I need to, I need to know what's happening around me, what will impact me, what has impacted me, and for the sake of how can I be the best participant in that and that's really a big part of it.

Phyllis Leavitt: 5:41

So, for people who really don't want to know anything, either they've just found their niche about how they're going to participate and they're focused on that and that's okay for them, or they're really afraid to know and not really recognizing that they're being impacted by their wall.

Phyllis Leavitt: 5:59

You know of walling something out, and knowing that there's something on the other side that they're afraid to really let into their consciousness is still an impact, because then some of our energy is going into a defense. I'm defending against knowing, because it feels overwhelming to me, and while I have great empathy for that because some of what's going on in the world is really overwhelming for most people what I have found psychologically is that feeling powerless is not a good way for anyone to feel. We're not wired to feel at a complete loss to help our environment or the people around us or ourselves, and so for me, the best antidote to feeling powerless and there's a level on which we are powerless I cannot change all the laws in my country, I can't change the Supreme Court's decisions, you know. So there's things that I'm truly powerless over, and I think the antidote to that is, to find where you do have power.

Jennifer Walter: 7:03

Where you can have influence where you can shape.

Phyllis Leavitt: 7:07

Exactly, exactly so. It might be with the people just in your immediate circle. It might be with your children. It might be that you could bring more kindness, more compassion, more understanding, more patience and tolerance to your workplace. It could be that you want to write a meaningful letter to the editor or call your senator or call people you know in positions of authority. It could be that you want to go demonstrate peacefully somewhere or run for office, but whatever it is, whether you think your sphere of influence could be what we consider small, but it's not if you're helping people around you or large in terms of impacting a large number of people find where you have appropriate power, because I think that actually infuses a life force and a sense of meaning and purpose and involvement in an appropriate way in what's going on, rather than either railing against it or feeling powerless to change it.

Jennifer Walter: 8:06

That is such a good point and really a powerful reframe, and I see, for example, voting as one of those aspects that you as a public, as a civilian, that you have the right to vote and yet I know from from my family, sadly there are a lot of folks in my family who don't vote because, oh, it doesn't matter, like the whole kind of like thing that goes on, and whereas, like with voting I can't relate really, but with other things I do right, for example the oh, what does it matter if I eat less meat if we still have big oil companies polluting the planet, like I get the sense of like almost hopelessness of the micro scale I can operate. So how can we come at that? How can we reframe this?

Phyllis Leavitt: 9:06

Well, one of the things that you know because I use the family model what's a healthy family and what's a dysfunctional or abusive family, and how do we look at our larger systems through that lens? And often what happens in a family where one person or two people but usually it's one person, one adult in a family wields all the power. In a dysfunctional family, other people don't have a voice, or if they try to have a voice, they're harmed or they're silenced or they're humiliated.

Jennifer Walter: 9:38

That is so true for our family. Fellas shut up. That's why my brother is not voting Now. It makes sense.

Phyllis Leavitt: 9:48

Right. And so in a dysfunctional family, the people in power want to keep that power. That's how they get to do what they do, take what they want and manage and control other people for their own ends, for their ideals, their own righteousness, their own rapacious kind of desires. Don't want you to have a significant voice, whether it's as a voter or, you know, in any other corporation or in a business that you work in. That. That's part of the system and you're actually complying with. Okay, you have all the power and I have none, so I opt out, but that's actually what that system wants from you.

Jennifer Walter: 10:43

So it's operating as designed and you're following suit.

Phyllis Leavitt: 10:47

Exactly, and and and. It takes sometimes, it takes courage, and sometimes it's a risk to actually stand up and say no, I don't agree, or no, that's I don't, I don't want that and I'm going to advocate for something different. And you might not like me and you might attack me or you might malign me or you might ostracize me, but I have a right to stand up for what I believe in and what I believe is really helpful and peaceful and generative for myself and other people. So we have to. Looking through that family system lens really helps us understand what some of those forces are around us. Of course people feel hopeless and of course people feel helpless because that's part of the design of a more authoritarian structure or people who want to hold on to power and don't want to give you any say or share power with you, which is actually a healthier model for human relations.

Jennifer Walter: 11:50

Yeah, it's really helpful to see kind of like the way you tend to feel when you engage with the news and the world at large the sense of like hopelessness or despair that there's nothing wrong with you. You're actually. It's actually just the outcome that was desired.

Phyllis Leavitt: 12:09

Right and you know, and it's a very difficult feeling to have, like I said, that's why it's so important to find your voice, find the place where your passion has a meaning and purpose, Even if you think it's just for your own welfare or for the people around you. Whatever we each do to heal our own wounds and become a more constructive member of the relationships we're in if it's one relationship or a thousand relationships or a million relationships, we are a contribution to the world at large and I think the average person doesn't necessarily feel that. And so, like when you're saying, people say I'm not going to vote because it doesn't matter anyway. Wow, You're really complying with the powers that be and you and your vote actually really does matter 100%.

Jennifer Walter: 13:02

I, for someone who who has never maybe thought about the concept of how our family lens or how our home environments shape our perception and behaviors um, in and off the public sphere, could you give us, from your experience, other examples of the ways in, or in what ways, our family systems or home environments actually do shape our perceptions and behaviors?

Phyllis Leavitt: 13:31

right. Well, you know, as children we're very porous and our parents generally, for most children, are the main influence, their school and the community and there's friends. But our parents are who we come home to. Our parents are who most often are our role models for how men treat women, how women treat men, how parents treat children. What are the expectations? What's considered success, what's considered failure, what's considered right, what's considered wrong? What are the consequences if you do something that is considered wrong? What are the rewards for what is considered right? What are the role models for conflict resolution?

Phyllis Leavitt: 14:16

And that's really one of the keys fight it out and somebody wins, or somebody is silenced or somebody is shamed into compliance. Are the children terrified to express a need because they're afraid they're going to be hit or they're going to be shamed, or is there open communication? Is there a feeling of love and acceptance for the differences that people have? One kid's a great math student, the other one is really wonderful at music. Are there different expectations for different individuals, you know? Do we make adaptations for that, or does everybody have to become a doctor?

Jennifer Walter: 14:55

Yeah, at the same pace, especially right.

Phyllis Leavitt: 14:59

Right. So we learn all these things. We learn values. We learn coping strategies. We learn values, we learn coping strategies, learn role models for conflict resolution. We learn gender role models. We learn all this in our family of origin and we just suck it up as children I mean for most children unless they're really exposed to something very different from what happens in their family. That's just the way life is. That's how you do it.

Jennifer Walter: 15:27

So if people fought it out and screamed at each other, your world is very small when you're a kid, so your family is your world, so from there. You think oh everyone is like that.

Phyllis Leavitt: 15:36

That's right and you're dependent on them, so you have to find a way to adapt. So if you have a healthy family that basically treats each other with kindness and tries to resolve conflict to everybody's somehow satisfaction, even if it's bumpy and imperfect, even if you have a fight, but then people really try to work it out and come back together and feel loving and resolved with one another, Great.

Phyllis Leavitt: 16:02

Totally, totally. Or you see your parents making amends. You know, like a parent that would come and say you know, I'm sorry, I yelled at you. I was really upset with what you did, but I shouldn't have yelled at you. Let's talk about it now. That's incredible, you know, that's an incredible role model that you have an adult that takes responsibility for their behavior and can make amends without shaming you or shaming themselves. And so we learn these things in our family. And if you grow up in a family where people just scream and yell and call each other names and slam doors and walk out-.

Jennifer Walter: 16:36

Or just be silent, which is almost as or even worse.

Phyllis Leavitt: 16:39

Totally icing each other out, then chances are that's how you might respond to conflict later in your life.

Phyllis Leavitt: 16:48

And then if you're a person who runs for office, and that's your conflict resolution model, that's what you bring to this world stage or the local stage or the national stage. And so that's why I say that our mental health, really redefining and looking at what are healthy family dynamics and how can we bring them to our larger organizations and institutions, is the missing piece in our politics today. Committed to sitting down and talking respectfully to one another, doing their best to be open to an opposing point of view, being committed to actually working it out for the good of the family of their country. Because when parents are unendingly divisive and fighting and verbally or emotionally or physically violent with each other, their children suffer. And when leaders in large organizations and institutions are role modeling those same dysfunctional dynamics of overpowering each other, and it's a win-lose model and I'm going to win and you're going to lose. Everybody suffers and we're really suffering here in the United States, and some people much more than others here in the United States, and some people much more than others.

Phyllis Leavitt: 18:09

Yeah, it's, I mean I think it's really a global suffering because yeah, very similar situations in a lot of countries.

Jennifer Walter: 18:13

Um, yeah, it's really how this really shapes us in, even in ways that both of us are not conscious of.

Phyllis Leavitt: 18:27

To how to start entangling this. I'm sorry, go ahead it's really.

Jennifer Walter: 18:35

It's something that only comes to light when you really start to do the work and you're really looking at things and like why am I behaving like?

Jennifer Walter: 18:47

it really requires a level of reflection that's right so how can we, how can anyone who is kind of like more at the beginning of this kind of work, how can what's a good entry point for them to start? Because I I know from my experience unraveling, especially family stuff, is really rough and tends to be overwhelming, like from your experience and expertise is there. I don't know, I don't want to say an easy way in because it's probably no such thing, but how can we start to be more mindful of, oh, actually this? I might react this way because of the environment I grew up in.

Phyllis Leavitt: 19:37

Right? Well, I think you used a really important word, and that is self-reflection. I think most of us have grown up in an environment and I know that here in the United States the environment is still very much like this not for all people, but still very much like this which is we tend to look at who to blame for our problems, and it's a very finger pointing, you know, that is responsible for these economic ills and this administration was is to blame for X, y.

Phyllis Leavitt: 20:11

Z Right, or that ethnic group is the cause of all our problems, or that religious group or that gender.

Jennifer Walter: 20:16

I mean we have that too, in Europe as well. Like we love to blame certain ethnic groups for whatever, yeah.

Phyllis Leavitt: 20:22

Right, and so the key really to resolving our human relations is taking responsibility for yourself. Who am I in this interaction? Am I yelling back at you? Am I rolling my eyes when you talk? Do I threaten to leave? Do I slam the door? Do I call you names? Am I passive, aggressive? Do I just look at my phone while you're talking instead of really paying attention to you the way I want you to pay attention to me?

Phyllis Leavitt: 21:18

So, and actually, you know, when I was in graduate school, I had a teacher who was teaching a class in couples therapy and I never forgot one of the things he said, and then it became relationship and were able to really come back together in a healthy, loving way the people who stopped pointing their finger at the other person and focused on their own responsibility for changing the relationship into what they wanted it to be. I think that's the key Whether you go to therapy and you really work on some of the wounds that you have that had you act out or act in, or be intolerant or be impatient or be blaming or be outer directed in terms of blaming other people, and you heal some of those wounds and that makes you better able to be more responsible for yourself? Or, if you just take it on, who do I really want to be and what I think the underlying key to that, to shifting those gears is? Am I going to talk to you the way I want you to talk to me?

Jennifer Walter: 22:17

Yeah. Approaching with a certain reciprocity of like. I would never want anyone to talk to me like this.

Phyllis Leavitt: 22:24

Right, so why am I doing it?

Jennifer Walter: 22:26

Yeah.

Phyllis Leavitt: 22:27

Am I listening to you on a deep level with some kind of openness, some kind of patient, some kind of tolerance, some kind of compassion, the way I want you to hear me, and I think these are those two things speaking the way we want to be spoken to and the way we want to be heard are two of the most difficult skills to develop. When you're especially, when you're triggered, when you're really angry, when you're really hurt, when you're really frightened and when you think you're really right, when you're really hurt, when you're really frightened and when you think you're really right and the other person that's when you got to do the work like when you're really and I mean I know this because I know from like for me the instances this shows up the most is I really disdain how a lot of people talk to their kids.

Jennifer Walter: 23:18

Um, and a lot of things we would be talking about is okay or not we would not be having if we would take this tiny human as a full-grown ass human. Um, and it's really hard if you're like triggered, if your kid is triggering you or near the midst and you would just like drift toward to your default mechanism of like yelling, totally be really like. No, actually I would not like to be yelled at, so I'm not gonna yell at my kid. That's when I work and it's really fucking hard it's, it's the hardest.

Phyllis Leavitt: 23:52

And you know, one of the things that I don't think we think about a lot is it's actually easier to fight. I'm just in reaction mode, I yell, I'm righteous. I want you to hear me. I don't think we think about a lot. Is it's actually easier to fight? I'm just in reaction mode, I yell, I'm righteous. I want you to hear me. I don't want to hear you.

Jennifer Walter: 24:03

I'm going to kind of you know, I want to get my anger, my ear out. It's about me, it's actually easier.

Phyllis Leavitt: 24:10

It's just automatic reactive mode, really reining myself in and reflecting on who I'm being and trying to be the person that I want you to be for me is much harder and it's much more worth it, because it's the key element to actually coming back together and resolving our differences. And one of the things that I've just become so aware of the more and more I've talked about this, is that we have to graduate from the win-lose paradigm and still running on it. If one person wins and the other person loses, what happens to the person who loses? Because they're angry, they're unheard, they're unsatisfied, they feel alienated and their issues not having been heard or not having been respected or not having been given a place at the table only inflames their reactivity and their defense mode more.

Phyllis Leavitt: 25:11

And I think we really have this not only in homes, but we have this on a national and international level that we really repress people.

Phyllis Leavitt: 25:20

We silence them. We don't want to hear what their real legitimate complaints are and meet their legitimate needs. We silence them for our own power and acquisition and our own righteousness and all the reasons that people overpower each other and we create victims, just like an abusive parent who doesn't want to hear anything from anybody else and wants to rule the roost according to their own needs and desires, creates victims in their family who become symptomatic. And we have so many symptomatic people in this world and many of them are picking up weapons. They're angry, they don't feel like they have any power, so they turn to violence and many of them, as you mentioned in the beginning, feel really hopeless and really powerless and then they're easily dominated. So if you have people who are invested in being the aggressor and the dominator and people who are easily dominated, you have the. I mean especially also in the middle east right, where you have this vacuum of of power and you have, like economic hopelessness, everything is in shambles.

Jennifer Walter: 26:50

And then you have someone promising the hopeless, the hopeless people something they want to hear, and it's a we know from from from psychology and psychosocial psychology. This is a. This is the number one way to radicalize people that's right.

Phyllis Leavitt: 27:07

That's right. Take people who are deprived, who don't feel like their lives have any particular meaning, who don't have opportunity, who don't feel seen, who don't have opportunity, who don't feel seen, who don't feel like they have personal power, and you get them to belong to your power-hungry organization and they finally feel a sense of belonging, because we're starving for a sense of meaningful, safe, valuing belonging. But if we don't get it and you see this on a schoolyard a little kid who doesn't feel loved or doesn't feel like they're included, they can be inscripted to support a bully on the playground or they might be the target of a bully one or the other.

Phyllis Leavitt: 27:50

But we want to belong. We're born with that. We're born wired for love and belonging and when we don't get it, we become symptomatic and we do as children and we do that as adults 100%, but I feel, yes, belonging, but the step before belonging is connection.

Jennifer Walter: 28:15

We need to be able to connect with people again. And this is the funny paradox, right, we're as connected as probably never before through technology and at the same time, we're drifting so much further apart from each other. How can we establish this connection, the connection points, to connect again with people, to then be able to build trust and create the safe belonging?

Phyllis Leavitt: 28:55

Well, you know, I think many people have lots of feelings about technology and I think that we should be thinking about it and what the effects of technology are, and in some ways it does connect us. You know, I can talk to somebody on WhatsApp on the other side of the world, we wouldn't have met, we wouldn't have had this conversation, right?

Jennifer Walter: 29:15

I mean, it has great aspects for sure.

Phyllis Leavitt: 29:18

It has wonderful opportunities for connection, but a lot of social media and what's on, sort of the news feeds on technology, are not real connection.

Phyllis Leavitt: 29:31

They're very, very superficial, they're very image oriented. They're a substitute for real human connection.

Phyllis Leavitt: 29:41

And I think there is no substitute for real human connection, for being with people, for belonging, whether it's to one person or a group of people or a community, for feeling that you are seen, that you're valued, that you have a place and that you matter.

Phyllis Leavitt: 29:57

And I don't think we can get that just from social media. So I think, unfortunately, because people are so mobile and they move around a lot and a lot of people don't live anywhere near their families if they want to, and that a lot of people really don't have the skills to reignite a sense of community and belonging around them and they're more subject to just being influenced by whatever comes their way across social media, because that's where they're looking for connection. So I think we have to bring the focus back to our actual human relationships with other people, because it's harder On social media you can put out whatever you want and you can hide anything that you don't want to expose, but in a real relationship with another human being. We're our whole selves, and if we want healthy relationships, we have to learn how to create them and work them out when they're in trouble.

Jennifer Walter: 30:58

Yeah, which again is really hard for us because most of us have not been modeled this as kids what, what makes a safe relationship, and oh, I mean we could go down a whole whole different alley of like media literacy and there's lots of mass communication and how we could just. But yeah, I want to go circle back to to something that I feel is even more important. Um and you phrased this beautifully of that, we kind of like have to graduate from the wind loose paradigm, and I even go further we have to absolutely dismantle it. Um, this whole black and whiteness, like right what, what, what steps?

Jennifer Walter: 31:42

how can we contribute, on a, on a personal and on a public level, to that dismantle, dismantling of the like that, the win-lose dishotomy?

Phyllis Leavitt: 31:54

I mean there's many things, but one big thing is to understand what's at stake. If we don't dismantle it, the win-lose paradigm is what creates war, and we have weapons that could destroy life as we know it, and we're still building them and we're still funding the possibility of their use and many countries still threaten their use. So I think we have to really understand what's at stake, which is the ultimate viability not only of ourselves, but of this species and maybe a lot of life on earth, and I would hope that could be more and more of a wake up call. I don't know if it is all the time, but you know, it's just like if we don't work it out in our families and in our communities, we have more gun violence, we have more racial hatred, we have more discrimination, we have more, you know, large, small segments of the very wealthy and larger and larger populations of people who are not making it.

Jennifer Walter: 32:55

So the divide is growing on all accounts.

Phyllis Leavitt: 32:58

So we have to look at that and actually feel the pain of it, and that's one of the things that's so beautiful about the world of therapy and psychology is that you get to feel the pain of the dysfunction that you have suffered and the dysfunction that you might have created yourself, without judgment, without blame, without retaliation, without punishment, but with a desire to heal it, desire to do it differently. So I think we have to know what's at stake. I think we have to be willing to feel the pain that we have collectively created, whether you and I have done it or somebody else did more or we did more or whatever have done it, or somebody else did more or we did more, or whatever and lift up the lens of blame and look for healing. How do we come back together? So the big thing is to actually feel the impact of where we are, and people don't come to therapy unless they're feeling the impact of where they are. That doesn't work. That's what brings them. They're at war with themselves, or they're at war with their partners or their children or their boss, and they want to get out of it. But somehow, as a collective, we haven't embraced that. We're still invested in war, which is insanity from a psychological point of view. It's premeditated murder from a psychological point of view, from a human point of view. So I think that's the beginning is to really realize and take in the consequences of what's going to happen if we continue the way we are. And then I think it comes back to healing our own wounds and committing to and this is a big one for me.

Phyllis Leavitt: 34:34

I think we have to commit to nonviolence, nonviolent communication and nonviolent conflict resolution, because that's the beginning of safety. So how do I do that? I commit in myself, and none of us do this perfectly. I'm not saying this isn't trial and error, it is, but committing to restraining my most dysfunctional behaviors. I'm not going to yell at you. I will try not to roll my eyes when you're talking. I will listen to you, I will do my very best to listen to you, even when I totally disagree. And I think you're being a jerk. Because that's the restraint we need. Restraint, because what we're doing now is I was violent, I yelled at you, I called you names, I withheld resources from you because you deserved it. So we justify the way we treat people badly. Well, you're wrong.

Jennifer Walter: 35:34

We're always good at justifying our behaviors.

Phyllis Leavitt: 35:36

Right and that's. Those are dysfunctional family dynamics. If one person is always right and everybody else is always wrong, there's no room for everybody else and they think they're just as right as the person who's saying they're right. We all think we're right. We all think we're right. So it's not. The goal has to be not to decide who's right, but to learn how to listen so that we actually can get underneath our defenses, feel our joint humanity, our collective humanity.

Phyllis Leavitt: 36:09

That's a grassroots organization called the Braver Angels and they bring people from opposing parties together and obviously it's people who are willing to have these conversations.

Phyllis Leavitt: 36:24

Nobody's forced into these conversations, but they bring people from opposing positions and opposing parties together to just hear each other. And I don't know exactly how they facilitate those meetings, but they facilitate deep listening and what they inevitably find is that we're not all that different, what we want is not all that different, but we've been sort of categorized into these opposing parties and conditioned to believe that we have to fight one another than actually sit down with each other as human beings. There's nobody I don't think in any party in the United States, for instance who wants their home to be bombed or their children to be kidnapped or to have no access to education or healthcare or food. There's nobody, of any party, who wants these things. These are all basic human needs, and I don't think there's anybody who doesn't want to belong to something that's worthwhile or to feel like they matter or have a voice. And so how can we meet on that level playing field and then listen to our differences and actually try to work them out?

Jennifer Walter: 37:35

But how can we do that if the meaning, the values of the opposite party go against your livelihood?

Phyllis Leavitt: 37:52

Well, I think it speaks to a larger issue, because we're living in a domination, submission kind of culture and that's the win-lose paradigm Somebody wins, somebody loses, somebody dominates and somebody has to submit, and that whole paradigm has to shift. So, if you live with values that I really don't agree with and I don't want to live by myself, I may not be able to change your mind, but I don't want you to impose that on me exactly, but that's what's currently happening.

Jennifer Walter: 38:25

I'm, I'm saying, okay, I, I don't know, I'm against the abortion. That's a common example. So I'm just going to prohibit everyone getting an abortion because it's, it's my and it's like, well, no one. Then if it's your religion, then you're free to not have an abortion, but you cannot oppose this on anyone else.

Phyllis Leavitt: 38:46

Right, right, and I think we just have to keep advocating for that. That we, you know I mean. And again, this is like constant negotiation If you're in any kind of a relationship, and hopefully a fairly good one but you know that even in a fairly good relationship, you are constantly negotiating what you can have, what the other person wants, what you're going to do together, what you're not going to do, what you believe in, um, from the smallest thing of what we're going to have for dinner to how we're going to raise our children, or larger involvement in our community, what's that going to be? It's constant negotiation and we have to have the tools to do that nonviolently. So one person believes in one thing like abortion and another person doesn't believe in it. There is a way to work it out.

Phyllis Leavitt: 39:43

I don't know what the whole answer is. You know it would be like a couple. When a couple comes in and and I had this once where one, the wife really wanted to have children and the man really didn't Well, you can't have half a baby. There isn't a compromise in that. So either one person agrees not forced, but agrees to the other person's desire. In a case like that, where it's black and white, and certainly not Jews are all black and white. Many can be compromised, but where it's really black and white, um, either one party agrees to go with the other, or you separate and you go your own ways peacefully and live your truth that's right, and we don't know how to do that.

Phyllis Leavitt: 40:29

We don't even know how to separate peacefully when we disagree. You know we, we attack each other, we malign each other.

Jennifer Walter: 40:37

We have to laugh at each other.

Phyllis Leavitt: 40:41

Or we kill them. You know, on the largest end of the spectrum.

Jennifer Walter: 40:44

Oh yeah, 100% Right.

Phyllis Leavitt: 40:47

So I think and these are all mental health issues, because mentally healthy people don't just force their will on someone. And I don't mean that a parent can't make their kid go to bed you know that has the authority to make their kid go to bed but that we exercise authority to the best of our ability when it's appropriate to have authority, like like an employer does have authority over their employee.

Jennifer Walter: 41:12

Yeah, yeah. You have to. You have to invoke your authority with the best intentions for the greatest outcome of all.

Phyllis Leavitt: 41:24

Right, and again, no one's going to do it perfectly, but the principle behind it is we do that, trying not to harm the other person, so you're not going to throw your kid in their room.

Phyllis Leavitt: 41:39

You might take them by the hand and say you have to go to bed and I'm sorry you're upset, I know you don't want to go to bed, but if you won't stay in bed then I'm going to sit here next to your bed until you realize that you can't get up. You know whatever. So we try to do it in the least injurious way. You know whatever. So we try to do it in the least injurious way, respecting the least harmful way, right, the respect, the worth, the value and the rights of other people. And we just keep committing to do that, not saying I give up because you're a jerk. But these are very, these are very difficult things to do and all I would say is we urgently need to learn how to do them for our own survival and for the welfare of our children and all future generations, because what we're doing now is not safe for anyone we, we see the destruction on many, many levels already, and it's not going to get better.

Jennifer Walter: 42:41

But I want to circle back, because this is something I really struggle with on a personal level and I'm curious to hear your take on, your reframe on this. I'm sure you're going to help me reframe it. The whole question of there is no right or wrong, like with abortion yes, there might not be, but I see this, I don't know.

Jennifer Walter: 43:07

There's a part, there's something going on that I don't sometimes refer to as kind of like the demonization of science and knowledge, of we, where people treat their opinion as knowledge, as facts, as and this is just not the case like climate change is something right where we know it's happening we have scientific data that shows us it's getting warmer, we have more like emissions, all these things, and I personally do feel there is a a right and wrong stance on this, like if you're saying, oh, it's not happening, then okay, that could is your opinion, but like it's not a fact, like I don't know, so there's like we're not going back to the middle ages, where we not believe science.

Phyllis Leavitt: 44:01

I mean what?

Jennifer Walter: 44:01

else do we can we hold on to? If we're like science is a hoax, I'm curious what instance is that denial?

Phyllis Leavitt: 44:40

That's a psychological condition.

Phyllis Leavitt: 44:42

You know these places are being flooded, certain islands are now underwater or going underwater, or we have more hurricanes, or you know the meteorologists can see that the whole wind cycles and whatever are changing and that when the air heats up, that you have a different climate being created on land and in the air and in the sea, and they're all interconnected.

Phyllis Leavitt: 45:09

So one of the things is that when people want to stay in power, they deny the evidence that would have them have to change their position or what they're doing. So that's a psychological issue. But I think, on an even bigger level, that I think the best psychology and healing work of any kind whether it's mediation or some other practice is that we've lost the desire to actually sit down and hear many voices. So what if we had an assembly of people globally? The people who lived on those islands that are being submerged, the people who have lost the lives of their loved ones in their homes and their communities from tornadoes that never used to strike their area before? The scientists, the people who have economic interests, the people who create policy? What if we created a culture? Because this is a healthy family culture where we listen to each other and like a.

Jennifer Walter: 46:13

So like harvard, like the sociologist harvard was, jordan hobbens is defining it like this as the public sphere where, like a society engages in critical public debate, like you come together, respectfully engage. You might think differently or you don't, but you come together and sort and talk true things, which is currently not really happening.

Phyllis Leavitt: 46:37

Because, also because many people's voices are not even allowed to be heard.

Phyllis Leavitt: 46:41

Yeah, in the arena, or they're demeaned or they're attacked or they're silenced in even more repressive ways. Sometimes they're jailed or killed. And these are all mental health issues. Because mentally healthy people don't silence other voices. They learn to tolerate opposition or uncomfortable truths. Maybe I'm running a company you know and what I'm doing and how I make my profit does something that is environmentally unsafe. Could I be willing to hear that? It would take a lot for me to be willing to factor that in, or am I just going to be a denier or an ignorer or strong arm my way into getting my way because I might lose some money? These are huge issues, but they're psychological issues and we've made them ideological issues. And as long as they're ideological issues we're going to fight and when they're psychological issues, we could look for how do we restore ourselves to healthy human relationships?

Jennifer Walter: 47:49

So if we reframe ideological issues to psychological issues, it at least opens up a toolbox for us that we could use to treat or ease the symptoms Right.

Phyllis Leavitt: 48:04

Right, and again it's going to be hard work, like abortion, where some people feel really strongly one way and people feel really strongly the other way. It's going to take a lot of dedication to work that out in a way that people can live with. And I think it has a lot to do with everything we're talking about. Are we going to stay in a win-lose, or how does everybody win in a situation like that? How does everybody win when some people are threatened by the idea of climate change and other people see the danger to the sustainability of life on earth? How do we do that? We have to be able to sit down and talk to each other without threats, without violence, without name calling. That's the first step and there is no other step. It's not going to and there is no other step. It's not going to get resolved any other way. We're just going to keep fighting.

Jennifer Walter: 49:01

And I feel you have to sit together, yes, and then, like that's what we said before in the conversation, right, you have to facilitate moments where you can connect to create belonging community and establish safety and trust. And then another important thing is like sometimes you would get people to agree to like sit together, but it's kind of like you have to approach it with with it kind of like different spirit and mind as well. If you come to the table and all you got is carrying a hammer, that's right.

Phyllis Leavitt: 49:40

How do you?

Jennifer Walter: 49:41

expect to fix anything if all you got is a hammer?

Phyllis Leavitt: 49:45

well, you know, I think one of the one and and I think we sort of touched on this, but I'll maybe make it a little stronger and that is listening means not just like I'm tolerating listening to you while you say something that I disagree and I can't wait till you're finished so I can tell you my point of view, which is what we usually do.

Phyllis Leavitt: 50:03

Right, it really means like what's underneath the anger, because usually underneath the anger of fierce opposition is some kind of pain, some kind of personal story, a hurt, a wound, right, and some of the best mediation techniques start with people helping people really become vulnerable about what's fueling their anger, which is generally some kind of pain, some kind of fear, some kind of loss, some kind of injury, some kind of wound to their sense of self, to their sense of belonging, to whatever happened to them that was hurtful.

Phyllis Leavitt: 50:47

And when you can get people to actually hear where their rage is coming from, where their you know, intense opposition is coming from, there's a door opening to feeling our shared humanity. And many people have experienced this in relationships. How many times have you, you know, maybe had a fight with your husband or your wife and you know, and you fought about it and you got really angry and somebody was upset and yelled and somebody cried or you both yelled or whatever, and then you threw stuff right and then finally you talked about. You know, my first husband was like that and I'm really defensive around blah blah, or I'm really on the lookout for that or my mother was this way.

Jennifer Walter: 51:33

The other person, kind of like a way into understanding why you're reacting the way you react.

Phyllis Leavitt: 51:43

Right, and then you start to grow empathy. Oh, you never had a voice as a kid. I understand why you get so adamant to have your voice with me. But you know, when you do that, the way you're doing it, I don't feel heard either, and I have the same wound or whatever it is, you know. But we but hearing each other's stories, allowing ourself to go down into our vulnerability and our wounds, that's what the best therapy does in terms of healing on an individual level and that's what the best therapy or mediation or other reconciling kinds of practices help people do when they're in high conflict, and then they can join around some sense of shared humanity and compassion and then they're more willing to work it out. If I know you feel for my deepest pain and you know that I feel for your deepest pain, we're much more willing to compromise or give our position up because it's not really that important, or whatever we see this in strong social movements right, because when you really have this sense of shared pain, it's really really powerful.

Phyllis Leavitt: 52:51

It's really powerful and it's what creates that kind of connection that you're talking about. That is essential. That's where we connect around our humanity. We don't connect around our narcissism and our egos and our power trips. That's alienating.

Jennifer Walter: 53:08

Yeah, that's a lot to to sit with for sure, right, because you really you can start. We like we came full circle, right. We said before, okay, how can like we can do. We can be better citizens, better community members if we really look at our own shit and a really look at our wounds and address them and be reflective of them and ask us, like, what do I really want to be, and then we can bring this to our family, to our community and it kind of like rose from there.

Phyllis Leavitt: 53:53

And if we were really on a path of healing, we could commit to doing that as nations. What's our history? Where did we come from? Who settled here? What trauma is they bring here? What's the pain that we have suffered?

Jennifer Walter: 54:08

Yeah, what's the colonial pain that is going?

Phyllis Leavitt: 54:11

on.

Jennifer Walter: 54:12

Yeah.

Phyllis Leavitt: 54:13

And what pain have we inflicted? And could we be responsible for the ways as a nation we've hurt whole groups of people and not like, oh my God, we're so horrible, but actually be responsible for that. We did things that hurt millions of people. Can we be responsible for that? We did things that hurt millions of people. Can we be responsible for that? Can we own it without making excuses, which is what we want in our own individual relationships, right?

Phyllis Leavitt: 54:43

If somebody has really wronged us, we want them to just own it, and the best amends that anyone can make for something that they've done that has hurt another person or other people is to do it differently now. That's the best amends. So if I've been screaming at you or I've been icing you out when I'm angry, I can commit to not doing that anymore and sit down at the table and really talk to you. And when we know when we're talking on a national level, we're talking about people whose ancestors were killed, whose land was taken, who were enslaved. I mean, we're talking about big traumas that probably many, many countries have inflicted on more vulnerable populations.

Jennifer Walter: 55:30

We have genocides in lots of different countries, like there is a lot of national and international trauma that has happened.

Phyllis Leavitt: 55:44

And these are signs of emotional growth and health, when a person or a country can take responsibility for what they've done and not just talk about the hurt that they've endured. Of course we have to talk about the hurts that we've endured Of course we do, and we want reparations and we want justice and we want our voices to be respected and honored and valued, but we also have to be responsible for what we've done. And that takes, and that's what's called a healthy ego. It's not ego like conceit, it's not ego like narcissism, it's like core, inner strength can that can really take responsibility on you know, and again, that we were wrong and committing to do better.

Jennifer Walter: 56:32

Right, this is really powerful and I really, yeah, I I'm like I really enjoy ending this conversation on this note, because it's so powerful to really be like you know there's so much that we can do, even if it feels hopeless, or power, even if you feel hopeless or powerless, and I think, yeah, thank you so much, phyllis, for showing us a lot of reframes and we can approach this differently. And it's really, yeah, I know this is a conversation where, where I'll be, I'll be logging off and then I'll be like marinating and be like, oh yeah, this is actually so true.

Jennifer Walter: 57:18

And not just why my brother doesn't vote Now. I know that. So if people want to hear more from you, how can they get in touch with you?

Phyllis Leavitt: 57:30

Yeah, you can. How can they get in touch with you? Yeah, you can. The easiest way to get in touch with me is through my website, which is my name Phyllis Levitt P-H-Y-L-L-I-S-L-E-A-V-I-T-T phyllislevittcom. You can contact me through my website. You can sign in for my newsletter. If you do that, you will get a free PDF that talks about the specific elements of how to repair conflict, how to be in conflict differently, that you can apply to your own life and your own relationships.

Phyllis Leavitt: 58:02

But I'm all you know. I have many, many interviews on YouTube. I have I'm on LinkedIn and Facebook and you know the main social media, and you wrote a book, and you wrote a book, and I wrote a book, and that, if you really want the in-depth version of everything and the full version of everything we've talked about today and much more, it's in the book that you can see in the background. It's called America in Therapy A New Approach to Hope and Healing for a Nation in Crisis, but it really applies worldwide. Hope and healing for a nation in crisis, but it really applies worldwide.

Phyllis Leavitt: 58:37

I think you can be in any country and relate to the interpersonal and psychological dynamics that I'm talking about and see their relevance. I just call it America in therapy, because this is the country that I'm familiar with and that I can really speak to. But I know that the dynamics that I'm talking about and the principles of healing that I'm talking about apply everywhere, and I really talk about the diagnosis and the cure in this book. So it's like how do we understand the roots of violence, the roots of hatred, the roots of divisiveness, and what are the best tools that the world of psychology has to offer for healing on a collective level, which are the same tools that we use to heal on an individual level? You can also email me at phyllis, at phyllislevittcom that's my business address.

Jennifer Walter: 59:24

Perfect, we will link everything in the show notes. So, Phyllis, before I let you go, I always have one last question what book are you currently reading or what audiobook are you currently listening to?

Phyllis Leavitt: 59:36

Well, the book I'm currently reading happens to be a book that Kamala Harris wrote about her career, and she wrote it before she was ever tapped to be vice president, so she wrote it while she was a senator and she just talks about. It's a very illuminating book. I'm very happy that I read it, because I'm reading it. I'm not quite done, because she just talks about all the social justice issues that she's championed throughout her whole career, which makes me very happy. So that's the book I'm reading happy.

Jennifer Walter: 1:00:17

Um, so that's the book I'm reading. Perfect, because I'm always asking, because smart people read smart books, and it's all the books. Go on the city ground podcast book club web page. So, whatever you're uh not sure what book to read next, go on the city ground podcastcom and have a look. We have fiction, non-fiction, biographies all really good juicy bits, juicy books. So yours got to go up there as well.

Phyllis Leavitt: 1:00:39

Please, I would love it. Please feel free to read my book comment, ask me questions. I'm happy to engage with anybody. I just feel passionate about contributing to a healing conversation for the good of all of us and all future generations.

Jennifer Walter: 1:00:58

Yeah, this passion clearly came through. Thank you so much for this conversation, Phyllis.

Phyllis Leavitt: 1:01:03

Thank you.

Jennifer Walter: 1:01:09

And just like that, we've reached the end of another journey together on the Cineic Root Podcast. Thank you for spending time with us. Curious for more stories or in search of the resources mentioned in today's episode, Visit us at scenicrootpodcastcom for everything you need and if you're ready to embrace your scenic root, I've got something special for you. Step off the beaten path with my Scenic Root Affirmation Card Deck. It's crafted for those moments when you're seeking courage, yearning to trust your inner voice and eager to carve out a path authentically, unmistakably yours. Pick your Scenic Route Affirmation today and let it support you. Excited about where your journey might lead? I certainly am. Remember, the Scenic Route is not just about the destination, but the experiences, learnings and joy we discover along the way. Thank you for being here and I look forward to seeing you on the scenic route again.