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E2- Bathroom Larry and the Alabama Ayatollah

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This week, we look at the political sex scandals of Larry Craig and Roy Moore, both of which ended their careers in politics. Craig’s undoing started in an airport bathroom while Moore’s shenanigans didn’t come to light until he ran for U.S. Senate. Also, which political party has had more sex scandals, and are politicians more prone to these scandals than others?

Hosted by Chris and Jeff

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[00:00:00] Jeff: This week, what not to do in an airport bathroom. And just how much does a religious conservative in Alabama have to do to not win an election. Welcome to Subpar Talks.

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Subpar Talks, where we have conversations about everything. I'm Jeff.

[00:00:36] Chris: And I'm Chris.

[00:00:37] Jeff: Thank you so much for joining us for another episode. We've got a really good topic this week. Before we get to that, make sure you go back and listen to last week's episode. That was a wild time. We talked about passengers trying to land airplanes and passengers shitting their pants and all sorts of good stuff, wild animal attacks. So make sure you go and listen to that. Also as a bonus, we threw in some bloopers from episode one. I know it's hard to believe, but Chris and I are not perfect.

We do from time to time stumble over our words and laugh uncontrollably. So you might wanna go back and listen to that. You certainly should. Uh, we enjoy putting that up there and re-listening to that. So we think you'll enjoy it as well. And if you haven't done so yet, we have an episode zero that's where we give you just a little bit of background on us, kind of what you can expect on this show from week to week.

And that'll give you just a little bit more of an idea of what we're doing here on Subpar Talks. And before we get into the episode this week, we do have our little disclaimer. Notice our tagline is conversations about everything. And so there's really no conversation or topic that's that's off the table.

We will talk about a lot of things, including some touchy subjects, hot button issues, but we inject humor into all of those. And if you don't think touchy subjects and humor can coincide and go hand in hand, then maybe this show is not for you. And that's OK. You can go on about your way, but for the rest of you, uh, saddle up, uh, put your seatbelt on because here we go

This week, we are talking about political sex scandals. Are you ready? 

[00:02:30] Chris: Endless supply.

[00:02:31] Jeff: Yeah, no kidding. So my first thought was, OK, I'd like to talk about political scandals and then that's like saying, uh, you want to talk about history. Like you're gonna have to narrow that down quite a bit. So then I thought about, OK well, what do political, uh, political scandals involve and it's, it's either sex or money usually. So you gotta pick one or the other. And to me, when it comes to this stuff, sex is way more interesting than political scandals involving money. Perhaps we'll revisit that issue. But yeah, so today it is political sex scandals, but here's the thing.

If you go to the Wikipedia page on political sex scandals in the US it is phenomenally long. Like it is a really long page, so you've got to narrow it down. And so I did. Gonna focus on two. 

First of all, let me give you some numbers. This is according to Wikipedia and these are political sex scandals since 1970. So yes, there were plenty more before that, but this is just since 1970 at the federal level. This is just at the federal level. This does not count people in their state legislatures. If a school board member somewhere is boinking the superintendent, that's not involved here. Like this is just at the federal level.

There have been 76. How many of those, Chris, do you think have been men outta 76? 

[00:04:04] Chris: The majority would be my thought. 

[00:04:07] Jeff: Um, yeah, 75, have been men.

[00:04:12] Chris: I would say that's a majority. 

[00:04:14] Jeff: Yeah, I'd say so. And, OK, so I'm gonna give you these numbers because anytime political scandals come up in my courses, I have students ask this type of question.

How many involve Republicans, how many involved Democrats? So I'm giving you the numbers here. Take it for what it's worth: 57 of these have involved Republicans, 19 have involved Democrats. So again, take that for what it's worth, read into that, whatever you want. But those are the numbers. Although there is one individual Strom Thurmond, the racist, segregationist Senator from South Carolina, he was a Democrat, but when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed into law, he switched and became a Republican, but he is on the political sex scandal list.

[00:05:07] Chris: Just too much for him to swallow. 

[00:05:08] Jeff: Yes. He had a maid who he had an affair with and he fathered one, maybe two children. I don't remember, but oh yeah. The maid happened to be black. So all the while he's speaking segregation, he's diddling the maid and, and producing, uh, a child.

[00:05:34] Chris: Doesn't really want her to have any rights.

[00:05:36] Jeff: Right. But he didn't mind, uh, getting intimately involved with her. I don't think that information about his love child or children, I don't think that came out until he died. And he finally keeled over and died when he was like 102, all shriveled up. But anyway, my point there is, Strom Thurmond, he was a Democrat and then became a Republican later on.

[00:06:01] Chris: People who, who publicly come out so strongly against many things often get themselves caught up in those very things.

[00:06:11] Jeff: OK. Hold on to that thought because here we go. 

[00:06:16] Chris: All right. 

[00:06:17] Jeff: OK. Are you familiar with Larry Craig? 

[00:06:21] Chris: Yes. 

[00:06:22] Jeff: OK. That's who we're gonna talk about. For those of you who don't know, Larry Craig is a former US Senator from Idaho. Let me just give you a little bit of background on, on him, and then I'll tell you his, uh, whole sex scandal here. He served for 18 years in the US uh, Senate, before that he had served 10 years in the US House. He was in state politics for a while. Then he made the jump to Congress. In 1982, so this was his first term in the House, 1982, an unnamed Congressman, and we still don't know who this is, but an unnamed Congressman, uh, Congressman went to the media. I mean, it got out in the media. I don't know who he first reported it to, but it got out that he said colleagues were using cocaine and having "inappropriate relationships with Congressional pages". Do you know what the pages are? The Congressional pages? OK, so these are...

[00:07:23] Chris: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:25] Jeff: Yeah. 

[00:07:25] Chris: Like just assisting 

[00:07:26] Jeff: They're young, young, well, young boys or girls.

I think they're like, I don't know, 16 to 18 or something like that, but they assist members of Congress in delivering stuff. And they're basically a gopher. They, they do errands. But anyway, this came out, this, this Congressman alleged that a bunch of colleagues of his were snorting cocaine and having inappropriate relationships with pages.

Larry Craig responded to that because he was wrapped up in this. Uh, he was named in this. He called the charges despicable. Nothing ever became of those, but it was one of those things that always kind of hung over his head. And there were other people implicated in that. And so rumors persisted, because he was unmarried.

Larry Craig was unmarried. And finally in 1988, he got married. And I don't think it's, let me get your take on this. I don't think it's as big a deal now, if somebody, if a man, in his mid thirties, is unmarried. Back then, it was a bigger deal, I think, in the early eighties, mid eighties. Because if you were unmarried, you were either a major player, you were getting all the ladies, or you were gay.

Larry Craig was not getting all the ladies. So that's why those rumors persisted. I think it's a bit different now today. Like if somebody's unmarried, I don't think there's that stigma. 

[00:09:00] Chris: I, I think so too. And I, I mean, I think that goes for women also. I mean, if you go back to, to that time, you're gonna, I, I think it was more common to think, like if a woman gets past a certain age that would still be a fairly young age, is there's something not right with her if she's not married. I mean, how, how can you not be married? How can you not, you know, "get a guy"? And now that's obviously very different looking at women, having their own independence, etc.. And that's not a, a big deal at all.

[00:09:40] Jeff: You mentioned this a while ago. So here we go: somebody who comes out against something, then they're probably gonna get wrapped up in the very thing that they're arguing against. But, Larry Craig was known for being staunchly anti-gay. I mean, he mentioned several things about it. When he was in Congress, there was a Congressman from Massachusetts named Barney Frank, who it was known that he was gay. But he had, it came out that he had a male escort living with him. And the male escort had wrapped up a bunch of parking tickets and Barney Frank pulled some strings and got him outta that. So that was kind of a scandal. Uh, I think this was in the mid to late eighties. And Larry Craig said that Barney Frank's punishment should be, uh, harder. Like I don't remember what the punishment was, but he criticized that the punishment was too soft.

It should be tougher. Uh, Larry Craig, uh, criticized, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". So that was the old policy with the military, right? We're not gonna ask you if you're gay. If it comes out that you're gay, you're gonna get banned. Um, but "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", he didn't like that. 

And he supported Idaho's law that banned gay marriage. That was the thing that was done at the state level, but he came out in support of that. He voted against federal, uh, excuse me, hate crime laws covering sexual orientation. So he did not want, uh, LGBT or, uh, any other group dealing with sexual orientation covered by hate crime laws. 

During the whole Clinton/ Lewinsky scandal, you can find this interview. I think I remember hearing it. I think you could probably find it on YouTube, but he was, Larry Craig was interviewed on, uh, one of the Sunday morning political talk shows. And this is what he said: "It's a bad boy, Bill Clinton. You're a naughty boy. The American people already know that Bill Clinton is a bad boy, a naughty boy. I'm going to speak out for the citizens of my state, who in the majority think that Bill Clinton is probably even a nasty, bad naughty boy." Like, what are you talking about? And that brings me to 2007 at the Minneapolis airport. Have you ever been to the Minneapolis airport? 

[00:12:05] Chris: I have been to the Minneapolis airport.

[00:12:07] Jeff: Have you ever used the bathroom at the Minneapolis airport? 

[00:12:11] Chris: I've done that too, but I can guarantee you right now, it wasn't the way he did! 

[00:12:17] Jeff: So for those of you who don't know, Larry Craig was traveling and his travels brought him to the airport in Minneapolis. And evidently I don't know how anybody knows this, but people do there is a bathroom, or there was, I don't know if it is now because of what happened, but there was a bathroom there that would be a meetup point for people who wanted to have sex.

So you would go into the bathroom and you would go into a stall. And if there's a person in the stall next to you, you reach over and you tap their foot. And if they give you any kind of a tap back or whatever, then that lets them know that you're into it. And so let's talk and go meet up somewhere. OK?.

So Larry Craig goes into a stall, taps a guy's foot, turns out the guy next to him is an undercover cop. Larry Craig is horrified and he gets arrested for this. He is charged with, so two charges. He's charged with interference with privacy, which I don't even know what that is. It sounds very vague, and disorderly conduct, which is also very vague.

Those were both misdemeanors. Larry Craig, if you listen to the audio tape of where the cop is interviewing him, who arrested him, Larry Craig pleads guilty because he's scared this is gonna come out. He maintains his innocence, "I wasn't doing anything wrong". The cop asked him about what he was doing. And do you remember what Larry Craig's response was?

He said, "I have a wide stance".

[00:14:06] Chris: Yes. 

[00:14:07] Jeff: So in other words, when I take a shit, my feet are so wide apart that sometimes I hit people's foot in the stall next to me, which is ridiculous. This is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. So he tries to just sweep all this under the rug. He's like, if I plead guilty people, aren't gonna find out, I don't want this coming out.

You know, it looks bad, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So he pleads guilty, pays a fine of 575 bucks. OK. So he thinks it's all gonna go away. Did it all go away? No. 

[00:14:44] Chris: I don't think so. 

[00:14:44] Jeff: No, not even close. So I don't remember which paper broke the story, but once they did, like, it was all over the place. There was a reporter for the Idaho Statesman who had been working on a story.

And the gist of the story was that Larry Craig is living this secret life. He is gay, but he can't come out and say that he's gay. So he is living this secret life, having all these rendezvous with different men, and this reporter for the Idaho Statesman interviewed 300 people for this story. Eight men said they had sexual encounters or were the target of Larry Craig's sexual advances going all the way back to college in 1967. Uh, three of them said they had sex with Larry Craig.

So this reporter, and I guess the editors at the Idaho Statesman were wondering, should we run this story? Should we run it then? When this came out about what happened with Larry Craig in the Minneapolis airport bathroom, the editors at the Idaho Statesmen were like, OK, we're going with this story.

Because a lot of the stuff that happened here in the bathroom was very similar to what other people had said, uh, in the past. Like he would meet up with people in the bathroom and that was his way of contacting people. 

[00:16:14] Chris: Oh, wow. 

[00:16:15] Jeff: Yeah. So in other words, there was a lot of credibility to the story, so they decided to go ahead with it.

Um, so they obviously asked Larry Craig about this Idaho Statesman story. He was reacting to one charge that he cruised for men at an REI store in Boise in 1994. Larry Craig's response was "I've been in this business 27 years in the public eye here. I don't go around anywhere hitting on men. And by God, if I did, I wouldn't do it in Boise, Idaho."

And then. And then he ends that quote with "Jimminy!". He says, "Jimminy!", like it's 1920. "Jimminy!". Anyway, so he gives a press conference, as you have to do, right. You have to, you gotta give a press conference and, and claim your innocence and bash all the people who are making these accusations against you and whatever. And you can find this on YouTube as well.

I found it ironic. The opening line in his press conference is, "Thank you for coming out today". It's like, they're not the ones coming out. You're the one coming out. 

[00:17:30] Chris: Did he have a speech writer? 

[00:17:31] Jeff: Right?

[00:17:32] Chris: They need to be fired. 

[00:17:35] Jeff: You didn't mean to come out, but you did. This is what I remember from that press conference. It was just a bunch of nothing, but he comes out and, I'm gonna do my best to give my Larry Craig impersonation. He says, "I am not gay. I never have been gay." That was his, that was his quote. And of course his dutiful wife is standing right next to him. Right. She's being the good wife, but... 

[00:18:04] Chris: Well, yeah, she's gotta be there.

[00:18:06] Jeff: Right. He said initially he would resign, but then he changed his mind and he served out the rest of his term and he decided not to run for reelection. I found this kind of funny. He was chosen for the Idaho Hall of Fame in 2007. But then this happened and they initially revoked it, like, OK, we're gonna take that invitation back. But anyway, that is the story of Larry Craig. 

So on one hand, I, it gets to me that he's obviously a hypocrite, right? You are an incredible hypocrite. You are gay and you are arguing against any kinda law or policy that would expand gay rights. So that makes you a hypocrite tried and true, like exhibit A, of a hypocrite.

On the other hand, he's gotta be one tortured individual, right? 

[00:19:11] Chris: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:19:12] Jeff: Like how long has he known he is gay or even questioned that he's gay? Yet, he's a Republican serving in Congress and you can't come out as gay if you're a Republican serving in Congress. So he is gotta live this, this secret life, 

[00:19:30] Chris: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously hard enough for just normal every day, non-public people to live with that in secret. That they're literally hiding their identity, feeling like that they need to. And how much worse would that be when you're a public figure of, you know, not wanting, not to come out and. yeah, your, your whole exist, your whole political existence is based on this platform that absolutely would not allow it. 

[00:20:09] Jeff: Yeah. So they, they picked him for the Idaho Hall of Fame. And that got me curious. First of all, I didn't even know there was an Idaho Hall of Fame. Why would I? 

[00:20:21] Chris: Yeah, I'm thinking, what are they recognizing here?

[00:20:24] Jeff: OK. So I, I went through this. I spent way too long on the Idaho Hall of Fame's website. Uh, but I picked out the names that I at least recognized. We're gonna see if you know any of these people. Do you know who Jerry Kramer is? 

[00:20:41] Chris: No. 

[00:20:41] Jeff: He was a Hall of Famer for the Green Bay Packers. Ernest Hemingway. Uh, yeah. Ernest Hemingway. Obviously you've heard of him. 

[00:20:50] Chris: Yeah.

[00:20:51] Jeff: I don't really know what his connection ... 

[00:20:52] Chris: I didn't know he was from Idaho. 

[00:20:54] Jeff: Yeah. I don't think he's from Idaho. I think he lived there for a bit. I don't know. In fact, I think that's where he offed himself. I think he shot himself in Idaho, but I don't know how long he'd been living there.

Uh, Picabo Street. Do you know who that is? 

[00:21:11] Chris: I do. A skier, right? 

[00:21:13] Jeff: Skier. Yeah. So...

[00:21:14] Chris: Olympic skier, yeah.

[00:21:14] Jeff: I knew it was, um, like a, I had Winter Olympics in my mind, but I couldn't remember what she did, but yeah, skier. Uh, Ezra pound.

[00:21:24] Chris: That sounds familiar, but I can't place.... 

[00:21:25] Jeff: I think that's an author. Maybe. I don't know.

Sacagawea? How is she in the Idaho Hall of Fame? I have no idea. Was she the one? Did she help Lewis and Clark? Was that her thing? 

[00:21:40] Chris: That's what I was thinking. I think it was the, yeah, I think it was their expedition. 

[00:21:44] Jeff: OK. So yeah, they were up there in Idaho or it wasn't Idaho yet, but in that whole territory. So I guess that's what got her in. Uh, Lana Turner. Was she an actress? 

[00:21:57] Chris: Yes. 

[00:21:57] Jeff: OK. Uh, Harmon Killebrew was a baseball player, but I don't know what he did. And then finally, our good friend, Larry Craig did make it into the Idaho Hall of Fame. Congratulations, Larry. 

[00:22:11] Chris: He got to stay?

[00:22:12] Jeff: He got to stay. So they, they retracted their invitation and then they retracted the retraction. So so they let him in. Larry Craig is in the Idaho Hall of Fame, for whatever that's worth. So there you go. That is the saga of Larry Craig. He is not gay. He never has been gay. But he's had sex with men and a lot of other encounters.

[00:22:36] Chris: And he stands by it . 

[00:22:39] Jeff: Yeah. He's got a wide stance, a wide stance. Yeah. Next time you're in the Minneapolis airport bathroom, any of you, think about Larry Craig and pay attention to how wide you put your feet when you're in the stall. Because that could be an undercover cop right next to you. 

[00:22:57] Chris: That's excellent advice! 

[00:22:58] Jeff: Isn't it. That's why we're here. OK, let me say one more thing about this whole Larry Craig bathroom experience. It always bothered me that he was charged with anything because all he did was tap somebody on the foot.

[00:23:17] Chris: That's exactly what I thought. 

[00:23:20] Jeff: And so I, you know, I said he was charged with invasion of privacy and disorderly conduct, and I looked those up in the Minnesota statutes. Disorderly conduct does not even fit. I can't even believe that. But invasion of privacy, or interference with privacy, that's what it was, interference with privacy, is like a peeping Tom law. So it's meant to, I mean, it makes it illegal to look into somebody's, you know, house or whatever, where they have some type of expectation of privacy. And then it, it also now includes, you know, video surveillance or, or whatever, but that's not what he did. And I, I guarantee you this happens and I'm sure it's not just in, in Minnesota, I'm sure it's everywhere, but the cops get people on this kind of stuff.

And they're so embarrassed for what the charge is like, what it involved that they just roll over and plead guilty. But all he did was signal to somebody that he was interested in having sex with them. And that's not, it's not against the law to ask somebody if they wanna have sex with you. Like...

[00:24:27] Chris: Right.

[00:24:29] Jeff: It's creepy. Um, I mean, outside of like a swinger's club, I don't think it's really encouraged in society. But you know, if it's not illegal to ask somebody if they want to have sex with you and that's exactly what he did. It's like, George, "Do you want to have sex ?"

[00:24:45] Chris: "Right now?" 

[00:24:46] Jeff: "Do you want to have sex right now?" Let's go.

Yeah. So anyway, that always bothered me. 

[00:24:51] Chris: Yeah. I, I didn't get that either. And it's like, I, I agree with both of the things. I mean, OK, yeah. It's clearly not a peeping Tom. And even if they could definitively say that that's what he was doing. Yeah. That's not illegal. I mean...

[00:25:09] Jeff: Right. 

[00:25:09] Chris: It's not a solicitation. It's not a money type thing. So...

[00:25:13] Jeff: Exactly. No money was offered or anything. So definitely not solicitation. I just think a defense attorney would've had a field day with that, um, if it had ever gone to trial. But there you go. 

[00:25:26] Chris: Doesn't keep it from being creepy, but...

[00:25:29] Jeff: Well, no doubt.

OK. So that is the first one. I have another one and I could have picked from so many, but this is the one I chose. Do you know who Roy Moore is? 

[00:25:44] Chris: I don't recognize that name. 

[00:25:46] Jeff: I think you will once I get into this. He is the former Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. And our starting point with Roy Moore is he is an asshole. That's like, that needs to... I just wanna make it clear what our foundation is here. Roy Moore is an asshole. Um, he is from Gadsden, Alabama. He grew up there. He went to West Point, served in Vietnam for, I think a couple of years, came back to Alabama, pursued his law degree and he eventually became, uh, the District Attorney for this county.

I can't remember the name of the county. It might be Gadsden County, but he became the District Attorney. In 1992, he became a Circuit Judge. So he is kind of working his way up. In 1994, this is when things get weird. Well, it got weirder before, but as far as his career goes, 1994, he put up, uh, a Ten Commandments plaque behind his bench in his courtroom.

Uh, he said it was to fill the empty space. Like I need something there. So he decided a Ten Commandments, uh, plaque would do the job. And, he started opening each day in court with a prayer. All right? So...

[00:27:12] Chris: All right. 

[00:27:12] Jeff: As you would expect, uh, there was a lawsuit. Somebody filed a lawsuit. That violates First Amendment, all that stuff.

So the judge ruled in the case that the plaque could stay. You can keep the plaque up, but the prayer has gotta stop. OK. So it was kind of a, a, you know, I'm not gonna rule totally against you. The plaque's OK. It's kind of innocuous, but the prayers, that's overtly religious, you gotta stop that practice.

OK. So immediately after the judge ruled, uh, on that matter, Roy Moore came out, held a press conference. He vowed to defy the ruling, said he was gonna ignore the judge's ruling. He was gonna keep doing the prayers. And he admitted that he put the plaque up solely for religious reasons. It wasn't to fill empty space.

He wanted it because of its religious content. After hearing that, the judge amended his ruling and said the plaque had to come down. 

[00:28:17] Chris: Gonna say, it's not the wisest thing to say., 

[00:28:20] Jeff: No, it's not. Like, you got away with something here. Like just shut up and go about yourself, but go about your life. But he couldn't stand it.

And the judge said, well, guess what, fuck you, the plaque's coming down too. So the prayers had to stop. The plaque came down. In 1999. Roy Moore decides that he wants to run for Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court to "Put God back in our public life and restore the moral foundation of our law." His campaign centered on religious issues. And he said the decline of Christianity corresponded directly with a rise in homosexuality, violence, and crime. You have any comment on that? 

[00:29:07] Chris: Oh, I'm just waiting. 

[00:29:10] Jeff: Oh, it's coming. 

[00:29:12] Chris: That's good. 

[00:29:13] Jeff: Yeah. So evidently that resonated with a lot of the voters in the great state of Alabama, and Roy Moore wins. And he is sworn in as... 

[00:29:24] Chris: He's right on the buckle of the Bible Belt there. 

[00:29:26] Jeff: Yes, firmly, firmly in the Bible Belt

He was sworn in, in 2001. One month later, after he was sworn in, he made plans to have a Ten Commandments monument installed in the courthouse. It was granite, weighed 5,280 pounds. It also had quotes from the Founding Fathers, the Declaration of Independence, and the National Anthem. So he wanted to slap a lot of stuff on this.

[00:29:59] Chris: He went all out!. 

[00:30:00] Jeff: Yeah, he did. He went all out, and it's 5,280 goddamn pounds. So there's plenty of room to, to put it on there. So guess what happened after this, as you would expect, he gets sued in federal court. And he comes out, holds a press conference and he says, regardless of the ruling, he would not remove the monument.

So guess what? The judge ruled against him. The judge said, you gotta remove the monument and it violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment. No ifs, ands, or buts, the, the, uh, monument has to go. For every day, the judge said, that the monument is not taken away, Alabama will be fined 5,000 bucks.

So it's gonna cost you $5,000 a day, or your state, to keep that monument there. The other eight justices, this had to be so awkward, the other eight justices on the court intervened and arranged for the removal of the monument. It was like in the dead of night type thing. Like, we're gonna get together because , we're saving the taxpayers money.

We have to honor what the federal court said anyway. So, yeah. After that, Roy Moore had to go before an ethics panel. That ethics panel ruled unanimously that Roy Moore must be removed from the bench. He is violating federal law. He is ignoring an order from a federal judge. That's enough to remove him from the bench.

He appealed that decision. The, the entity, the court that gets the last say on that appeal is again, awkwardly, the Alabama Supreme Court. So the Alabama Supreme Court, his fellow justices, upheld that suspension in 2004. OK. So this is a uber-conservative. uber-religious individual, who is defying the federal government over and over.

And he finally gets suspended in 2004 from the Alabama Supreme Court. In 2012, he decides that he wants to run again again for Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. Do you think he won? 

[00:32:24] Chris: Probably.

[00:32:25] Jeff: You're right. He did. He got 52% of the votes, 52% of Alabamians or whatever they're called, said, we like this guy. We want him back. So, he got reelected. In 2015, here comes more asshole-ery. 

[00:32:44] Chris: And probably a lot of those people are just voting for the name of the person who was already there. I mean, then you gotta wonder how many of these people even knew what had been going on. 

[00:32:56] Jeff: I think they probably did. I was, I, I mean, I know this story got national attention. I remember hearing about it. And so I'm sure people down there knew about it. How much? I don't know. But I'm sure there are a lot of people in Alabama, a lot of that 52% probably, who liked the fact that Roy Moore was trying to stick it to the federal government. You know? I mean, that's...

[00:33:22] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:33:22] Jeff: Um, gonna be a popular position with a lot of people in the south. Um...

[00:33:27] Chris: That's the law and order party. 

[00:33:29] Jeff: The law and order party. So let's ignore the law. Yes. So in 2015, after a federal judge ruled that gay marriage was legal in Alabama, so gay people can get married in Alabama, Roy Moore ordered judges and county clerks all across the state not to issue same sex marriage licenses.

So here he is again violating federal law. In 2016, he was brought up on ethics charges, six in total. He was found guilty. He appealed and the Alabama Supreme Court again upheld his suspension. And so that's twice that he was kicked off of the Alabama Supreme Court. Do you think he's done? Do you think he's just gonna go away with his tail tucked between his legs, leave political life?

[00:34:23] Chris: It's not looking like it. 

[00:34:24] Jeff: No, he does not. Let me tell you how, so this is political sex scandals, right? The sex is coming for those of you who are just, you can't wait for the sex, it's coming. It's gross sex, but it's coming. Let me just give you a little bit of background on Roy Moore's political views and, and you can comment on these if you want.

I'm just gonna run through them, but we could spend, we could probably have a whole episode on all of these different political views. Uh, Roy Moore thinks life begins at conception. He is not in favor of any exceptions in the case of abortion for rape or incest. He was a leader in the birther movement. Remember the whole birther thing, Obama supposedly wasn't born here? So Roy Moore was really outspoken on that. Because of his focus on religion, uh, it's kind of a derogatory term, but I think it's quite funny. He's called the Alabama Ayatollah. So that's his little nickname and I think it's pretty fitting. In 2004, he proposed an amendment to the Alabama constitution that would have removed reference to the poll tax and separated schools for "white and colored children".

OK?. So the Alabama constitution still has a reference to the poll tax, which has been outlawed by the federal government and it still refers to separated schools for white and colored children. OK. Now, obviously they can't enforce either one of those, but it was never taken out of the Alabama constitution.

So in 2004, there was an amendment proposal to remove that language from the Alabama constitution. Roy Moore came out against it. He opposed the amendment. The proposed amendment was defeated by a little over 1800 votes. 

[00:36:19] Chris: So we wanna leave it in. Well, all of us wanna leave it in.

[00:36:22] Jeff: Yes. The people who voted, uh, against that proposed amendment wanted to, to leave the poll tax language in. And they just love the language that talks about separate schools for "white and colored children". Uh, this is Alabama, so it's kind of like, what do you expect? But there you go. I swear when I teach civil rights, like half the shit we talk about is in Birmingham, Alabama, like it's like ground zero for civil rights stuff.

[00:36:52] Chris: Oh yeah. That's where it all went down. 

[00:36:54] Jeff: Yeah. Um, so I guess considering Alabama's history, it's no surprise there that that was defeated. In 2011, on a radio show Roy Moore said getting rid of all the amendments after the 10th amendment would eliminate a lot of problems. He's talking about the US Constitution here.

So you just wipe out every amendment after the 10th, and that would get rid of a lot of problems. In case you're wondering what some of those might be, the 13th amendment outlaw of slavery. The 14th amendment gives us equal protection of the laws, 15th amendment, um, says you have the right to vote regardless of race. And then the 19th amendment, you have the right to vote regardless of sex. Doesn't sound like our, uh, our buddy here Roy Moore is too happy with those. 

[00:37:42] Chris: No, I don't think he is. 

[00:37:43] Jeff: No. He opposes preschool. He said attendees at preschool are "much more likely to, to learn a liberal political and social philosophy that's characteristic of totalitarianism."

[00:37:56] Chris: Yeah, that's what's happening in preschool. 

[00:37:58] Jeff: Right? Exactly. 

[00:37:59] Chris: Like that's the way I remember it. 

[00:38:01] Jeff: Yeah. Don't you, I mean, I remember my ABCs and then we went into, uh, Marxism. It was that's just the way it was. Unbelievable. Roy Moore thinks homosexuality should be illegal and that the state should use its power to punish gay people. And then before we get to the sex part of this stuff, in a 2002 divorce case, so when he was a judge, he was deciding on custody of children, like where should the kids go? Should they go with their mom or their dad? Cuz there's a divorce case here. So the woman in the case was in a lesbian relationship and he ruled that the father should get custody of the children even though there was a bunch of evidence that the father had been abusive toward the kids. 

[00:38:49] Chris: Oh wow.

[00:38:49] Jeff: But his view was homosexual behavior in and of itself is harmful to the children. And so that's like de facto abuse right there. So they're gonna go with the dad. 

[00:38:59] Chris: Worse than the actual abuse. 

[00:39:01] Jeff: Yes, exactly.

OK.. So is it clear the kind of person we're dealing with here, Roy Moore? 

[00:39:06] Chris: I think you painted the picture.

[00:39:07] Jeff: Painted the picture. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Like, OK, we got it. All right. In 2017, Roy Moore decides that his political career is not over and he decides he wants to run for the US Senate. All right.

So, when you jump from state politics to national politics to spotlight is gonna get bigger, especially when you're running for Senate. Like this is one of a hundred positions. You are gonna be scrutinized. And so all the stuff that I just mentioned regarding the Ten Commandments monument and all that, that was already known, but it was kind of rehashed when he ran for Senate.

Um, this was a special election by the way, to fill a vacancy. The previous Senator from Alabama, one of 'em had been Jeff Sessions who was Trump's first Attorney General.

[00:40:06] Chris: Right.

[00:40:06] Jeff: Yeah. So he resigned that Senate seat, and then, so there was a special election to fill this. So Roy Moore throws his hat in the ring. In 2017, the Washington Post comes out with a story and this story involves a woman named Leigh Corfman. In 1979, when she was 14 years old, she and her mother were at the courthouse for some business.

Her mother had to go into the courtroom and talk with a judge. Roy Moore was an Assistant DA at the time. He was 32. When the mother went into the courtroom, Roy Moore offered to sit with Leigh, uh, to kind of keep her company while her mom was in the courtroom. Um, he asked for Leigh's phone number. OK., keep in mind this is a 32 year old asking a 14 year old for her phone number. Uh, she gave it to him. They went on two dates. The first date, he told her how, now this is according to her, OK. This is what she says happened. He told her how pretty she was, and then he kissed her. On the second date, he tries to ramp things up a little bit.

He takes off his clothes. He removes her shirt and pants, and he touched her over her bra and underwear. She said she was not comfortable. She asked him to take her home, which he did. OK. 

[00:41:36] Chris: Well that was nice of him. 

[00:41:37] Jeff: Wasn't it? Gave her a ride home? Yeah, no word on whether he put his clothes back on before he did so. I would hope that he did. So you would think, OK, one, this is one accusation, right? One accusation, something that happened over 40 years ago. OK, that's one. But the Washington Post breaks another story. There's a woman named Beverly Nelson. This happened in December of 1977 or January, 1978 when she was 15 .She was walking home from work. Uh, she worked at a restaurant and Roy Moore drives by and offers to give her a ride, and she accepted. She was like, hey, he's the Assistant DA, I know this guy, he's trustworthy. Right. And he's offering to give me a, a ride home. So she got in his car. Didn't think twice about it. Also, this is the 1970s where, where hitchhiking was, that was like a normal thing people do, right? 

[00:42:34] Chris: Yeah, people would do that. 

[00:42:34] Jeff: I think Ted Bundy ruined that. But anyway. 

[00:42:38] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:42:38] Jeff: He drove her around the back of the restaurant and parked by the dumpster. She says he put his hand on her breasts. Uh, she told him to stop, but he locked the door. He reached over and locked the door. He did eventually stop, but he told her that no one will believe you if you say anything, because, you know, you're just a teenager and I'm an Assistant DA, don't even think about telling anybody. As proof that this happened, she presented her yearbook and in her yearbook, there is a, um, something somebody wrote and that is "To a sweeter, more beautiful girl, I could not say Merry Christmas, Christmas, 1977. Love Roy Moore, DA." 

[00:43:30] Chris: Well, that's a big mistake. 

[00:43:32] Jeff: Yeah. Roy Moore signed, uh, her yearbook. So he's 32 at the time. She's um, 15 years old. Tina Johnson, 28 years old. She was one of Roy Moore's clients when he was practicing law. Um, she was in Moore's office and she says he grabbed her butt while she was there on official business.

Becky Gray, in 1977, worked at the Gadsden Mall. She was a teenager at the time. Roy Moore kept asking her out, um, but he wouldn't leave her alone. And finally he got the hint and, and stopped asking her out. But keep in mind, she was a teenager at the time and he's, you know, like 30 years old. So then the story comes out.

Keep in mind, all this stuff is coming out as he's trying to mount a campaign for the US Senate. So it's not looking good for Roy Moore, even by this point. But there were more accusations. Several, now women, girls back then, uh, who worked at the Gadsden Mall, said they were all aware when he came in, like they would say, oh, there's that guy again, look out for him.

Like they would warn their friends here comes Roy Moore, uh, watch out for him. Several former workers, police officers, and security guards had heard that Moore was banned from the mall. Now the former manager of the mall said he had no knowledge of Roy Moore being banned, but a bunch of people said that, yeah, they had heard that he was banned. A retired detective said he was told that Moore was banned and that he should make Moore, uh, make sure that Moore stays away from the cheerleaders.

So, Roy Moore would go to high school football games and evidently try to get with the cheerleaders, like talk to them or whatever. And this cop says he was told to make sure that you keep 'em away from the cheerleaders. Gina Richardson worked at the Sears at the Gadsden Mall. She was 17 years old. Moore kept asking for her for her phone number.

She refused. He called her, this guy's persistent. I'll give him that. He called her at the high school. This is long before the days of cell phones. This is like he called the main office and asked for her. She eventually agreed to go out with him. After the date was over, she tried to get out of the car, but she says Moore grabbed her and kissed her with "really deep tongue."

That's what she said! Which is...

[00:46:08] Chris: OK,. that's the gross part. 

[00:46:09] Jeff: Yes. That's the gross part. 

[00:46:10] Chris: Well, not that the rest of it wasn't gross already. 

[00:46:12] Jeff: Right. But that just adds a, a, another layer of gross to it. And in this account, what happened to her was corroborated by a coworker because when the Washington Post interviewed her, she says, I told my friend about it when it happened.

And they went and asked the friend and the friend was like, yeah, she told me. Debbie Gibson, not that Debbie Gibson. OK. Not the teen idol from the late eighties. Debbie Gibson here was 17. Um, she dated more in the spring of 1981. He denied it, um, said, I didn't even know her. Don't know Debbie Gibson. But as proof, Debbie Gibson here produced a postcard from Roy Moore, congratulating her on her high school graduation.

Like, see, we did know each other. Uh, just a few more here. Gloria Deason, she was 18, Moore was 32. They met at the mall. He gave her alcohol. Kelly Thorp, 17, Roy Moore asked her out and she declined. And he didn't like that response and told her, "I date girls your age all the time." As if that's gonna make her feel comfortable. 

[00:47:30] Chris: Well, he was right.

[00:47:31] Jeff: Yeah, he was. Yeah. Uh, Wendy Miller worked at the mall as a Santa's helper. She was 14 at the time. Roy Moore asked her out, but her mother wouldn't allow it. Good job, mom. 

[00:47:45] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:47:46] Jeff: That's being a good mother. OK.

[00:47:48] Chris: Maybe needed more of those mothers around. 

[00:47:50] Jeff: Yes. So, in this Washington Post, um, store, I think this is the Washington Post, but anyway, a former colleague in the DA's office, so they worked when Roy Moore was there from 1982 to 1985, stated, "It was common knowledge that Roy dated high school girls. Everyone we knew thought it was weird. We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall". At least four current and former residents of Etowah County (that was the end of the quote), at least four current and former residents of Etowah County, so I guess that's the county that Gadsden's in, have corroborated the colleague's story. One said, "These stories have been going around this town for 30 years. Nobody could believe they hadn't come out yet." 

OK. On Sean Hannity's show. All right. So by this time, Roy Moore's trying to salvage what he has left of his us, uh, Senate candidacy, so what better way to do that than to go on Sean Hannity's show, uh, on Fox News, and Sean Hannity flat out asks him, did you date girls in their teens? Here's Roy Moore's response. "Not generally, no. If I did, you know, I'm not going to dispute anything, but I don't remember anything like that. I don't remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother."

[00:49:20] Chris: OK. That makes it all right. 

[00:49:26] Jeff: If the age that you are does not end in the word "teen", you should not be asking a girl's mother if you can go out with her. Like, that shouldn't have to be said, but evidently Roy Moore...

[00:49:42] Chris: I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb, right there. 

[00:49:43] Jeff: I think it is too. I think it is too. He should have put that on a plaque behind his bench instead of the Ten Commandments. It would've helped him a lot more.

OK. So Roy Moore decides to take a polygraph and there is a dispute about the results of this polygraph. He says he passed. A former FBI interrogator who had access to the readout from the polygraph says that he failed it. I don't know that we ever got any definitive ruling on that. So anyway, they have the special election, uh, his opponent, Democrat Doug Jones got 49.97% of the votes to Roy Moore's 48.34%.

So, oh, this is just a few thousand votes. Maybe, I don't know how many people voted, maybe under a thousand. I don't know, but it was super close. Doug Jones barely, barely eeks out of victory. So even after all that...

[00:50:50] Chris: That's just crazy. 

[00:50:51] Jeff: Yeah, isn't it? 

[00:50:52] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:50:52] Jeff: Even after all that, you had a ton of people who, well, the same thing when all the stuff came out about Trump and his, uh, you know, the claims about him regarding sexual harassment, there are just gonna be a whole lot of people who are just gonna look the other way, say that women are lying or whatever.

[00:51:11] Chris: Right. 

[00:51:11] Jeff: And you can say that you can say the women are lying. Uh, 

[00:51:15] Chris: Or boys will be boys. 

[00:51:16] Jeff: Yeah. That too. . And, and I can see one accusation where you might say, OK, maybe not. Maybe it's not true. But when this many people come out and they all say the same kind of thing...

[00:51:30] Chris: Same thing. Right. 

[00:51:31] Jeff: Yes, but here's what seals it for me. Roy Moore's wife is named Kayla, and Kayla when she was in high school competed in beauty pageants. So she's a teenager. She was competing in beauty beauty pageants. She was a dancer. In 1976 or 1977, we're not exactly sure of the year, Roy Moore went to a dance recital. Why he was at a dance recital when there were teenage girls there, I have no idea. But Kayla was 15 or 16 at the time.

And Roy Moore is quoted in a CNN article, he says, "I knew Kayla was going to be a special person in my life". So he was 30 years old. She was 15 or 16 at the time. They got married in 1986. He was 38, she was 24. So, OK. That's you see what I'm saying? Like that seals it for me. Like his wife is 14 years his junior, you know?

And so the fact that he first saw her at a dance recital, that kind of seals it for me. This is all. 

[00:52:48] Chris: Yeah. That's the thing. If he's 30 and she's 15 or 16, I mean, there's a lot of people that could have a, you know, 10 to 15 year difference in their age, but not then.

[00:53:02] Jeff: Yes. Yeah. And, and 38, 24, like that's when they got married.

If I hear about somebody who's 38 and 24, my first thought is holy hell. Like they're really far apart in age. 

[00:53:15] Chris: That's a big difference. 

[00:53:16] Jeff: But even so, OK. I mean, other people have made it work, whatever. But considering the fact that he first saw her when she was 15 or 16 and he was 30, that, that just makes me believe that all this stuff is absolutely true.

[00:53:34] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:53:34] Jeff: So I don't know where old Roy Moore is now. Hopefully he's done with politics and trying to ruin other people's lives. Uh, but I don't know. He might resurface. 

[00:53:45] Chris: Quite a stand up guy. 

[00:53:47] Jeff: So I've wondered about this. Like, why do these things happen or are politicians any different than the normal average man? Because keep in mind all these sex scandals at the federal level, uh, what did I say, like 75 out of 76 have involved men? But I did some reading on this and there's been stuff in political science and psychology on this. And basically what it boils down to is money and power. And if you've got money and power, you've got opportunity and you're gonna have influence.

And I remember one, I don't remember who this was, but it was a professor who had studied this kind of stuff. And he said, if you were to examine people on Wall Street, you would probably find similar rates, um, with this kind of stuff that you do with politicians.

[00:54:44] Chris: I could see that. I do think, you know, you talk about the money and power. I think it, it is going to have to do with, obviously it, it, yeah, there's, there's more opportunity, freedom to, to do that, etc. But I think also, you know, it's some of the attitude that goes along with it. And that's not to, you know, not to cast, uh, too wide of a net, too much of a stereotype. Like, just because you have money, power, status, whatever, doesn't make you an asshole by itself.

[00:55:23] Jeff: Right. 

[00:55:24] Chris: But clearly there are those people where that money and power and so on goes to their head and gives them that entitled. I mean, because just think about that. How entitled must you feel that I can approach, you know, a teenage girl and this is gonna work out. This is OK. And, and she's not gonna say anything and you know, all of those things that, that have to, to come together like that. And, and clearly, you know, they weren't saying anything for all that time. 

[00:56:01] Jeff: And I wonder what it is on his part. Like, well, the, what he said to Sean Hannity, that I always ask permission from their mother. When I hear a quote like that, he probably thinks that that what he did is normal and acceptable.

[00:56:15] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:17] Jeff: So maybe this answer's my question, but if you, if you knew what you had done in the past, and you're gonna run for a major office like US Senator, why would you in the first place? Because you know, this stuff is gonna come out. But again, I, I think he, he thinks it was just fine. Like it wasn't weird at all.

[00:56:33] Chris: It's OK. Yeah. 

Well, and, and that's, you know, I guess that's another part of it, is everybody has their, you wanna say everybody ha has their kind of bubble that they live in and you kind of accept as normal the environment that you're in. And, and, and to that degree then, I guess, you know, from the standpoint of having that money, power and so on, maybe you're around other people who are behaving that way. And, and maybe it is that, that there's some normalcy to it. I mean, you know, you, you could talk about celebrities in some similar ways. I mean, they are clearly under, a scrutenous eye, but, you know, there are some celebrities that I think are amazingly, shockingly grounded. Like knowing that they, I mean, you just think about what it must be like, and this, this could go for the politician/ celebrities is the watchful eye that they're under. I mean, we, as, as your, your normal everyday, people can get out of our car at a grocery store or whatever, and go on about our lives. And there are these other people who are, you know, hounded by a paparazzi and, and all kinds of things that, that has to change you at some level. I mean, it changes your perception of things. It's gotta change the way you think about yourself, all kinds of things. And you know, I mean, so they're, you know, in the political arena and the other kinds of people that you're around the, the, I mean, you talk about opportunity that, that fosters, then, you know, you have to think, I wonder how much that just distorts their view of reality.

[00:58:26] Jeff: So this is something I struggle with and that is, should the sex lives of politicians even matter? If a member of Congress or President for that matter, or whoever, any kind of politician, any elected, official, whatever, should we care what they're doing as far as their sex life goes? I struggle with that. On the one hand, like it's their private life, is it affecting their job?

And if it's not, then leave it alone. On the other hand, well, they're in a position of power, public trust, you know, the people put them there, they should serve as some kind of a role model for both adults and kids alike. So I don't know. 

[00:59:15] Chris: Right. I don't either. I I've struggled with that same thing. I mean, I, I think probably, uh, one of the, probably one of the first times that I really felt challenged by that the most was in Clinton's time in office.

[00:59:33] Jeff: Yeah. Same and Monica Lewinsky. 

[00:59:35] Chris: I, I mean, you know, I had heard obviously about, you know, JFK and, and things like that, but that wasn't in my life and you know, I wasn't living through it, experiencing it. Uh, is very different during Clinton's time, as far as, you know, how I, how I thought about that. And I, I just, I don't know.

I really don't know because the, I mean, you're right. You're, you think, you're, you're electing this person and in the case of politics, you're electing this person because of how they're going to serve the people, um, their decision making abilities. Now we talk about, um, how, how are their decision making abilities here being, um, I mean, are they making the best decisions? But...

[01:00:23] Jeff: Right.

[01:00:24] Chris: Um, but yeah, I mean, again, people make all kinds of mistakes in their personal lives and may be hugely successful. 

[01:00:32] Jeff: Yeah. 

[01:00:33] Chris: Professionally.

[01:00:34] Jeff: True. 

[01:00:34] Chris: And, and so that, that goes for, for any normal person out outside of that realm. So yeah. I don't know. I mean, because if we do hold them to that standard, that could go, that could go for anyone.

You know, you find out that, you know, John Doe down here at, at X, Y, Z Corporation is, is doing something that, that same thing that a President's done. Is that affecting his job? Do we care? 

[01:01:01] Jeff: This goes without saying, but somebody, like, there's a difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault, you know, I mean, one is a crime. Um, so like what Trump was accused of doing that's clearly sexual assault. And then what Roy Moore did here, that's clearly sexual assault. Right? I think that's an obvious line. Like, I don't want people in positions of power who have flaunted the law, repeatedly broke the law. That's obviously the, that that's a difference.

[01:01:35] Chris: Yeah. That is a very good point. Yeah, it does absolutely make a difference. I mean, even, you know, even for those girls, well, the, I mean, OK, so the one that he married, you know, but she was 15 or 16. Well, that may have been, you know, technically consensual, but still illegal. So, yeah. 

[01:01:54] Jeff: Yeah. If they did anything. There's, no, so I think if I remember right, she got married and then got divorced and then they, like, they knew each other. So I don't know if anything went on, you know, before they actually got together or not, after she was divorced. So anyway, that is the saga of Larry Craig and Roy Moore, both out of politics. Both because of sex and in Roy Moore's case just kept flouting federal law and basically ignoring it.

So there you go. Any parting thoughts on either one of those two individuals?

[01:02:38] Chris: That is, uh, just, wow. I mean, it, it's, it's amazing to me that the kinds of things that, that people will do in the public spotlight too. Like, I mean, if I, if I were in the public spotlight like that, that would just make me even more afraid. I mean, if I know that I'm that kind of person that I, I feel the need to do these things. I think I'd be wanting to lay low. 

[01:03:07] Jeff: Oh, right. Like lay low, for sure. Maybe just resign your position. Like yeah. 

[01:03:13] Chris: Yeah.

[01:03:18] Jeff: All right. Well, there you go. That is political sex scandals, and I'm sure we will be revisiting that topic because I'm sure more will come up as the show goes on. There's gonna be more and there are many more that we could talk about. 

[01:03:32] Chris: Endless supply.

[01:03:33] Jeff: Endless supply. There you go. 

All right. Uh, we would love for you to visit our website. That is subpartalks.com. You can email us there. You can leave a voicemail. Usually I dread when I have a voicemail, but we love getting that stuff from listeners. So go ahead and do that. Contact us. We love when our listeners contact us. Don't mind that a bit. Follow us on social media. On Twitter, we are @subpartalks. On Facebook, we are Subpar Talks. You can follow us with our personal Twitters. On Twitter I am @independentjeff 

[01:04:09] Chris: And am @chrisbradfordtx. 

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So there you go. That is political sex scandals, Chris, any parting thoughts or shots?

[01:05:18] Chris: Thank you. Thank you all for joining us again this week and hope to have you back again next time. 

[01:05:25] Jeff: Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us. That is Subpar Talks and we will see you again next week.

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