[00:00:00] Ginny Bolling: I graduated from the University of Central Florida and the Florida Department of Transportation was doing interviews one day and I thought that would be a good company to do a practice interview with. So I went there really very kind of casual, but it turned out that I really hit it off with the guy there. and ended up walking out with a job offer and thrilled to hear that I can use other people's money to go buy real estate.
[00:01:03] Tim Little: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the journey to multifamily millions. I'm your host, founder and CEO of ZANA Investments, Tim Little and on today's show we have with us Ginny Bolling. Ginny has been in real estate over 35 years doing everything from governmental real estate acquisitions to her current multi family investing Ginny, welcome to the show.
[00:01:24] Ginny Bolling: Thank you so much.
[00:01:25] Tim Little: Yeah, it is great to have you here. We go way back from the mentorship program that we're both in But I want to get into your background Cause it seems like you have a wealth of experience in different aspects of real estate. So I think that's really interesting and I'm eager to dive into it. So please tell us how you got started in real estate and how you got to where you are today.
[00:01:49] Ginny Bolling: I graduated from the University of Central Florida and the Florida Department of Transportation was doing interviews one day and I thought that would be a good company to do a practice interview with. So I went there really very kind of casual, but it turned out that I really hit it off with the guy there. and ended up walking out with a job offer and thrilled to hear that I can use other people's money to go buy real estate. Speaking of casual, excuse my casualness. My tennis match ran late today, so I don't usually look like this, but so be it. It's Saturday.
[00:02:28] Tim Little: There you go. Alright, okay, that, and that's how you got started. we'll definitely need to go on from there. But, one, a UCF grad. That's awesome. I have some friends that went to UCF. I went to Florida State myself. representing Florida right there. But, after that, tell me what kind of things you did in that job. And, what it really taught you.
[00:02:48] Ginny Bolling: Okay. Yeah. and what you'll hear is, as I go through that and a couple of steps after to help tie it together, I've pivoted all my life into a little different role, so that's why my company is called Pivotal Real Estate Investments. This final pivot was huge, but we'll get back to that. Working for the Department of Transportation, they put us through really like another whole year of college, almost specialized to land acquisition and government environments, because especially in Florida, the government. Pays for property owners to hire all the experts, attorneys, appraisers, land planners. So what ends up happening is we as negotiators deal primarily with attorneys and all the experts. So you learn quite a bit. And so what ends up happening, especially if you're widening a road that's in a congested area, and we were in Fort Lauderdale. doing this work. We were hitting buildings, maybe clipping them and having to cut and reface or demolish them. And sometimes the owner didn't want you doing that. It was very contentious. A lot of times they didn't want you doing that, right? But you had to get the road work done. And you learned, To deal not only with highest and best use and valuation and how to negotiate, for compromise, but also, with me managing teams where we hit a lot of buildings, we, sometimes if they were really going to fight about it, even if there wouldn't be much building left, we might have to cut and reface it. So we had to work real close with permitting and, building departments and all kinds of people and write a contract saying every exact thing we're going to do and how much room we needed to do it we had to identify all of that and Stay within our bounds to actually do the cut and reface this the county wouldn't let us leave an open wall the DOT used to So we'd have to close it off again So a lot of, very, detailed work, shall we say?
[00:04:55] Tim Little: And I think a lot of people underestimate how much work goes into dealing with things like permitting when you're talking to the city and the county. because I've had to do that, some of that myself on some of my properties. One of my first, multifamily deals as an indicator was a portfolio deal that And we had lots that we wanted to combine really just to make the sale easier, in the future. Cause it was, it was a bunch of properties and some were right next to each other. So there was the opportunity to combine those lots and just dealing with,with the city and the county and the administrivia and the bureaucracy, never underestimate how long Anything will take to get done with that. But you're certainly at an advantage if you understand how some of those processes work and the timelines associated with them. And then if you know the people involved, then that's even better. Cause that, that probably really helps you get stuff done. But have you had to deal with any of that since transitioning to the. Commercial multifamily side and maybe you could talk about how that transition happened for you.
[00:06:06] Ginny Bolling: okay. So I not only worked for the department of transportation, but I've worked with cities and counties. I was an appraiser in the 1980s. I was also appraising some things from the blueprints. So again, I needed to understand construction pretty well and whatnot. but what I have dealt with thus far, as far as what I've acquired, I haven't had to use permitting, but as we look at hundreds of deals before we can find the right ones to invest in. So many of the ones I've looked at. Some have been ground up. Some have been where you have to do enough, changes that require permits. You need to figure out just how long it's going to take for that area, for that particular governing authority. and talk to some people that have been dealing with them. some of them are out of state. Some are areas where you need to take the time and read their process so that you really know. But one of the saving graces for me. When I get talking with them, I can usually put them a little at ease by telling them I've worked for the government for the Department of Transportation. I understand the lingo and then they'll start talking much faster. And it's a lot. They're more at ease and I'm more at ease. I'm getting more done faster.
[00:07:24] Tim Little: Yeah, and a lot of things tend to go in phases right if you have a property where you're doing a heavy value add or Like an example of mine, we had a burnt building on this acquisition. And we had to tear it down to the studs before rebuilding it. And I just didn't realize that there were so many phases to that. I was just like, Oh, we'll just get the work done. And it's No, you need to get an inspection before the work starts once, you're down to the studs. Then once the electricals came in, then drywall and I just didn't realize that there was so much government inspection, throughout that construction process. Process and if anything goes sideways, it can really delay the amount of time and throw off your whole business plan in terms of what you're doing. So you really need to dig into that beforehand,and really understand that time in the process so you can do better underwriting. Right to know how long it will realistically take you to get some of that stuff done.
[00:08:27] Ginny Bolling: Here's a little golden nugget for you too, because of my flipping background. I learned something the hard way and that was,my partner and I thought since we own the property, we could certainly work on it. we could swing a hammer, right? Without having workers compensation, either insurance or the exemption status filed, just like all the workers are supposed to have. And, I was really good about making sure they had insurance in place and either workers comp insurance or the proper exemption. One day we were renovating a property that had been abandoned for 20 years. We had to, we had 11 different permits we had to do for this thing. And when one of my contractors for the drywall arrived, he gave me his insurance, proof of insurance, but it didn't show anything in that little box for workers comp. I said, you can unload, but you can't start work. This is in Orlando. I'm talking about and, it was shortly after one of our hurricanes and they were doing a sting operation because, the department of financial services is now enforcing this part of, The construction industry and they came by and they saw the trucks in the yard and they were training some new staff, came in and said, let's see all your insurance or it was workers comp really that they were looking for. And I had left the site and this guy didn't have it. So they shut us down. Everybody had to leave the site with a thousand dollar fine on him. And then when they found out I didn't have a declared status and I'm a flipper. So I'm considered in the construction trade. I got, and my partner got a thousand dollars and worse yet, they audit two years of records. Thank goodness. This was only our second flip.they fined us 47, 000. Now we argued it and I was able to get it down to seven. And it was so faulty the way they were calculating it, but they get away with it all the time. And we were advised by some people that had also gone through it, just pay it and move on. but we were shut down for a few days. We could have been shut down for weeks. yeah, you do want to make sure you've, you're using workers that have, at least in Florida, that have all the right credentials.
[00:10:56] Tim Little: yeah, so that just goes to the requirements piece and understanding, what is required to get that work done and I think a lot of time as operators, we depend on the property manager or, construction manager, whoever's overseeing that stuff, but ultimately, it comes down to us to manage the managers. That's some good insight into stuff that we should and could be looking for, on these projects that we have and works getting done because, ultimately if those fines come down and they get levied, that's, it's going against all of us who are invested in these projects. So that's good insight right there. talk to me about your, again, how you, so you've done some flipping. How did you transition into the commercial multifamily space? And did you start off as a passive investor? Or did you go straight to the general partner side of things?
[00:11:54] Ginny Bolling: So I joined the local real estate investors association here in central Florida and started going to different meetings and, I, I never really was crazy about doing the flipping because I have a hard time picking pink colors and things, but my partner was good at it. I was doing the contractual part. And then the more I realized there's a commercial group. And I knew from when I was an appraiser, I liked commercial way better than residential. So I started looking into it and they were saying, it's just more zeros. you put so much work in anyway, analyzing and that's so true. So I was learning about it and then I found out what syndications were and that was pivotal because it's so much easier than You would ever think to be a part owner in some big commercial properties. So once I learned that I was set, I started learning all about syndications and different ways to do things. And so that's exactly what I did. But I, and my first investment was. as a limited partner in a Texas investment with a general partnership team that I had, have, I'm still in it, a lot of faith and confidence in because I wanted to see what it was like to be the type of people I'm looking for.
[00:13:17] Tim Little: And that's something that I try to communicate to so many folks who are coming up. There's one, slow down. This business isn't going anywhere. You don't have to rush into being a general partner on a deal. And two, I just think there's a lot of value in doing what I call, earn while you learn, right? So there's different ways you can go about it. You can start off with a mentorship program, and plunk, 000 into that. Or you could take that money and you could put it into a deal as an LP limited partner, passively investing. And then you, I think you really get to learn the nuance from the investor perspective, right? You learn what questions you should be asking as a passive investor. And those are the questions you can expect once you're more on the active side. And I think you really appreciate the awesome responsibility of working with other people's money. because you know how much trust you felt in putting that with someone else when you were that passive
[00:14:20] Ginny Bolling: Absolutely.
[00:14:21] Tim Little: Yep. So okay, so you did that deal as the passive investor. Where did you go after that?
[00:14:28] Ginny Bolling: So kept analyzing deals and working with people locally as well as nationally and attending a lot of conferences and networking. And, I had an opportunity, it was close towards the end of, an actual raise on a, an apartment project, a value add project in Jacksonville. And so I was able to get in. On that one. And, I'm thrilled to be in Jacksonville. I have a son in Jacksonville and like I try to tell my investors, it's really nice if you invest in places you'd like to go, as long as it meets the metrics, it's growing and has all the right metrics, then. Shoot. It's great to be able to have a reason to go there.
[00:15:11] Tim Little: Yeah. And so that deal in Jacksonville, was that something that you raised money on?
[00:15:17] Ginny Bolling: Yes.
[00:15:17] Tim Little: Okay, awesome. And I think a lot of people don't, don't really know what that's like the first time, right? I don't know, some people, maybe they think they can go out the gate and they're like, yeah, my first day I'll raise a million dollars. And some people do, but I don't think that's the reality for most of us. Who are doing it for the first time and so i'm always interested to hear, People's experiences the first time because I definitely didn't come crashing through the gate on My first race, so i'm curious to hear what your experience was like
[00:15:46] Ginny Bolling: since I was coming in towards the end, they were almost to their finish line anyway. But,it was surprising for me too, because my peers are government workers that work with appraisals all the time. They understand value. They, I would say. I would think they'd be very comfortable with, going through the motions of saying, Ooh, does that look good? Or, but, actually it was so new to them that they, often Most of them were saying, I'd like to wait and see. I'll watch. Okay. and actually there was, more, optimism and participation from the local RIA, the real estate investors that are local. And, so now I'm known for also doing presentations. at the REIA for saying why everyone should invest in syndications. Because while they're busy flipping, they should have the money that they're not using working for them. Anyway, I did not get to spend a lot of time trying to raise them. So I have been looking actually since, and as prices got way over, what I felt anyway, they should be. I put some offers out, but I haven't won anything in the last year. So I'm really thinking this next two years is going to be especially good, especially with all the information we're seeing and getting on with the economy and whatnot. So I'm pretty excited at what I'm seeing across my desk now.
[00:17:47] Tim Little: Yeah, we're in the same place. It's been more of a consolidation phase the last year Focusing on the properties we already have And you know making sure you know with Loans coming due and stuff like that we're still in a safe place, and it's we've continued to underwrite deals. But again, for a long time recently, it's just been hard to make anything pencil with what sellers. want, we've been off by a good, like 20 percent on a lot of these deals.
[00:18:16] Ginny Bolling: Well, and in Florida, as our insurance rates are still out of this world and interest rates are still high. So those are two big killers for Florida deals. right now I think. And, so I'm looking more places than I was before.
[00:18:31] Tim Little: Yeah, exactly. And I think that I would love to invest in my backyard every time. but my backyard got pretty expensive and it got hard to make deals pencil out whether it was right here in Tampa or Orlando or even, Florida writ large, really. And so We've also broadened our view on things. I think we still like the Sunbelt in general, those areas. But then, we did a deal in South Dakota, which is not a place I would have expected to invest in. But, we met up with a partner who had boots on ground and the demand is really high out there because they're not building as much. So you just have to look at all these other factors that may be completely different from the areas where you're used to investing. And that's what I've seen. so I wanted to get into some of the things you talked about, because again, you have some such a broad array of experience within real estate. You talked about being a real estate broker, a flipper, passive investor, and now syndicator. and I don't really think there's any right answer to this question, but which of those things has been the best fit for you? Where have you felt the most comfortable?
[00:19:44] Ginny Bolling: I am very comfortable doing the eminent domain thing just because I've done it for so long. and I like challenges. And usually the attorneys for the owners are challenging, but, the, and writing, writing contracts can be challenging in a contentious environment.and that's one of my specialties. but I like syndication a lot too. I think that this is my final place. Really. I will do some general partnership,belts, and I expect to be getting into the fund of funds and. I'm doing the general partnership thing in some respects because I like to know things inside out and upside down so much. so I want to be sure I get to see. The intricacies of several different deals, in several different areas that I like, before I become strictly a fund manager or something like that. but I'll tell you when I get older and older, I'll still just be a limited partner because that's the way to make your, I feel the best way to make your money grow.
[00:20:49] Tim Little: Yeah. And I 100 percent agree and think that so many people want to become general partners and that's great. but honestly, my overall goal is to become a permanent limited partner one day, right? You make enough capital that you could just deploy it into these investments and sit back after having done your own due diligence. Of the deal of the operator, et cetera, be able to diversify into different types of assets as a limited partner and still get those returns that are just really hard to find anywhere else. And if I could live off that, then that's the ideal.
[00:21:31] Ginny Bolling: Yeah, me too. Especially if you've got an apartment project or industrial or whatever assets that you know, you can just keep forever. And, there are general partners out there that want to do that. So you don't always have to be flipping. I think we'll see since syndications are still growing and in a growth curve and learning curve. I think that there may be more and more versions of that where there's,options or opportunities for people to get their money out and go on, move on if they want. but I bet you more and more of us, at least baby boomers are going to want to just stay in a good deal. Just stay.
[00:22:13] Tim Little: Yeah, absolutely. And, a lot of these deals, I think, have even lengthened their timeline, partly out of necessity. Given the markets during COVID, I had a deal. go full cycle in under two years, which is just ridiculous. But, investors want their money back sooner rather than later if they can get the returns they were looking for. But, nowadays, I think more realistic is that five to seven year horizon. And, what works for some people may not work for others. And that's OK. But then I have other deals that are joint ventures, where everybody's an owner in it. And that's, An even longer time frame where we're talking about 10 years so you really better be sure that you like these partners because most marriages don't even last that long. So that's a really important aspect of it the longer you're going to be in some of these deals The more comfortable I think you need to be up front
[00:23:10] Ginny Bolling: For sure.
[00:23:10] Tim Little: All right, this has been good, but we do need to go into the turbo round. So I am going to ask you three questions that I ask every guest that's on the show. And I just ask you for a quick, honest answer. Are you ready, Ginny? All right, let's do it. First question. What is the one red flag every investor should look out for?
[00:23:30] Ginny Bolling: Experience. You want the general partnership team to have experience and willingness to flex as times change. they really need to have the experience to know you don't. Stick to a plan. If things change all around you, you have to leave yourself a little margin for adjustment.
[00:23:50] Tim Little: Yep, absolutely. And that's the experience not only of that individual, but the entire team because as long as they can call on those experts and those experts are involved Maybe that's enough to get them through some tough times, too. All right. What is a myth about this business that you would like to set straight?
[00:24:09] Ginny Bolling: You don't have to be rich. You have to be there
[00:24:12] Tim Little: true
[00:24:13] Ginny Bolling: accredited or sophisticated, but you do not have to be rich to own commercial real estate. So
[00:24:18] Tim Little: and I think that's a common misconception just because people Can't imagine how they could be a part owner in an apartment building, right? They think that's Only for the grant cardone's of the world and stuff like that. It's no secret that cardone takes money from a lot of people. in order to Take these deals down. and so sometimes you need some capital up front. You might not be that diversified anyway, so it's really good To get into something that's a hard asset that you can see. All right, final question. Jenny. What does success look like to you?
[00:24:53] Ginny Bolling: I, I had to look into my, why do I want to makereally good money? I'm an empty nester, single person, but I really would like to make a difference in the world. I don't have to have any big name or anything like that, but I would like to have a good influence and help people that are less fortunate. And when I really thought about it, mypeople of choice are kids. So many adolescents today are depressed, frustrated, pessimistic. So I am embarking on different ways to try to help uplift adolescents and show them that Their reason to be optimistic and things they can do. And,success for me is to be successful at doing that. And, being a philanthropist, in many different causes. I need Catherine Bell, right? Oxygen is like money. the more you have, the more you can do. And, the more you can do, the bigger difference you can make. And that's so true when you think about it. I am looking at building a philanthropic organization to help kids.
[00:26:12] Tim Little: Yeah, that's awesome. You're exactly right. it's really hard to think about giving to others when you're, you're struggling or even concerned about, will I be okay in retirement? And, do I have enough to pay the bills? But once you get to that place where you do have a little extra, that's where you feel mentally like you can start to help others. And the more you have, The more you can help, like you said, Ginny, this has been awesome. I really appreciate having you on. Please tell the listeners how they can get ahold of you. And if there's anything else that you'd like to share with them.
[00:26:43] Ginny Bolling: Okay. I'll send you a link to an article I wrote about why multifamily is a good investment. and I can be found on LinkedIn real easy under my spelling, G-I-N-N-Y-B-O-L-L-I-N-G. and then my company is Pivotal Real Estate Investments. And if that's just spelled out and add a.com. That's an easy way to reach me as well.
[00:27:09] Tim Little: Okay, awesome.
[00:27:10] Ginny Bolling: Yeah.
[00:27:10] Tim Little: we will definitely have all that information in the show notes. Jenny, again, thanks for coming on. And I look forward to seeing you do big things on your journey. To multifamily
[00:27:20] Ginny Bolling: Likewise. Thank you so much.
[00:27:22] Tim Little: Thank you.
