The skills that help you excel and get promoted are far different than those you need to succeed as a Leader. John Raffetto, CEO of Raffetto Herman joins us to discuss his journey and perspective, and we discuss multiple tangible ways anyone can think and act like a leader.
The skills that help you excel and get promoted are far different than those you need to succeed as a Leader. John Raffetto, CEO of Raffetto Herman joins us to discuss his journey and perspective, and we discuss multiple tangible ways anyone can think and act like a leader.
Welcome to some of your business where we help aspiring leaders take the next step in their career. And now you're a host Tim flood.
Tim Flood:So you want to be a leader, right? Okay. Well, thanks for joining us today. This is gonna be a great episode. We're gonna talk about just really some practical tips on people that are individual contributors, wherever they are in their career, aspiring to be leaders, uh, help you get there, help you be seen as leader help you act like a leader. And then if you tips, once you are a leader, how to be successful. And my guest today is a really, really good friend of mine happens to be CEO of his own organization. Mr. John Raffetto John, welcome to the show. Thank you, Tim. It's great to thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here, uh, really special. Thanks. Especially considering all the things that I have said about you, John, for you to be on the show. And, and, uh, I was, I was way outta line and you're a bigger man than I I'll give you a pass one time. Thank you so much. If you could, uh, just walk us through a little bit about, um, you know, your history. This is definitely a new industry. Uh, to me, not one that I have experience in sure. But, uh, certainly is very interesting, but your journey into, uh, leadership role and then, um, we'll get into it a little.
John Raffetto:Yeah. Yeah. Great. Well, I started my career around a lot of leaders. I worked in the us Senate, right outta college, got very lucky draw and ended up in a super sweet, you know, job in the us capital, uh, working for a Senator and then later for a committee, uh, of the us Senate. And I was the, the press secretary communications director. And, you know, it was very interesting to watch a hundred leaders all competing with each other. Uh, to out lead and some of them wanted to run from president and it was just a crazy environment to start a career in, but essentially, you know, my job in that role, uh, was, was communications. And ultimately I got this sense that I didn't want to be a political animal for the rest of my life. And so I started plotting an. From the beltway. And I had this idea that I wanted to work in corporate environments and I wanted to work in tech because that's where all the excitement was at the time. This is, you know, the nineties leading into the two thousands. And so I patched this idea to move to the west coast, uh, and be where, you know, the new economy was emerging and, and I still wanted to do communications and PR. And so I got out to the west coast and I was with another company at the time. And I don't know, within a year of moving to Seattle, um, with my family, the company I was working for collapsed in on itself. And I found myself scrambling, trying to figure out, okay, you know, how am I going to. Make a living in this new city with the skills that I have. And, uh, so I got colleague of mine that I worked with at that other company. He and I hatched this plan to start this firm, our own strategic communications firm. And that was 15 years ago. And, and we've been doing it ever since. And so when we started the business. I was, I think five of us, it was, it was my business partner, myself and a few employees from the, from the failed firm. And we had a small little book of business and, uh, we went to work, you know, we spent the first few years just doing work. We had these clients that wanted PR campaigns and they wanted to get the word out there about themselves. And that's what we did all day. Sure. You know, we weren't really thinking about running the business necessarily, other than making sure the, the checks were coming in and the paychecks were going out, we were more consumed with doing the work and doing a great job, you know, what the clients had hired us to do.
Tim Flood:Absolutely. But that's, you know, that's kind of the essence of what we're talking about. Right. Which is how do you go. Doing the work, working in the business to maybe working on the business as a leader. So that's, that's a transition that I personally went through, but I didn't go through it, you know, early in my, uh, adventure as a business owner, I went through it probably later than I should have, but it is no, I mean, um, it's interesting, you know, and it's, it's a, it's sort of a parallel path to, you know, in the corporate world, right. Where you can climb the ranks. If you go your own route and there's entrepreneurial route. You know, most businesses fail 90% within two years, I think is the stat. And so the fact that you're even in business and, you know, uh, paying the bills is a Testament to you're doing something right. Uh, but it's a little different, you know, when you're, when you're in a startup environment, you know, there there's, you know, an org chart is just a, you know, a ven diagram, right. That, you know, everybody does everything to make sure that you stay in business versus, you know, a bigger, more structured company. There's more defined roles and paths and things like that. But, um, the, the, what what's, I think true across both is there's different skills when you're the practitioner or the individual contributor. And then when you are the leader. Oh yeah.
John Raffetto:Oh yeah. I mean, and this is something I've seen over and over again where, you know, you get these superstars, right. And they're, they're you called'em individual contributors. And they're just, they're amazing. And because they're amazing whether they're, you know, in my field, maybe they're excellent writers or they're really excellent at making connections with the media, but in other fields it could be they're they're great coders or, or they're great sales people. And, and, and they get a brand or like very quickly for being excellent at. Job as an individual contributor. And so, but as a result of getting that brand and somebody has the bright idea, like, Hey, we should, we should promote Tim, you know, to manager because man, he is really good out there with the, with the customers, you know, he's problem solved and they love him. And, and um, but that is, you know, when you, when. Pull somebody out and you identify them for their superstar status as an individual contributor, and then you drop them into this new role. You know, that is a, that's a big difference in, in their day to day work and the skills that they need absolutely be successful. And then, and that's fraught, you know, I've seen it, I've seen people make the leap and I've seen people, you know, not be able to make the transit.
Tim Flood:Sure. So, I mean, you know, my, my career trajectory has, uh, has gone a little like this, right. And early on in my, like your tennis, your tennis skills. Yeah, exactly. Just like my, uh, my tennis skills over the years here, but I, I, uh, I did really well. I was in, uh, the mortgage industry. And started, you know, um, inside sales support went out as a sales rep, took a territory from nothing and built it up and applied and, and got the manager job. I was in the DC area, got the manager job for Boise, Idaho, and Boise. Idaho was our smallest branch and it was underwater in terms of profit. And I went in there and turned it around and kicked butt. As the manager there got promoted out to the manager of our Bellevue Washington, which in terms of staff was the biggest, right. And so Boise was sort of a good, you know, I was there for a year and did some good things, but it sort of allowed me to be. It was a good transition for me. Right. It was maybe a dozen people in that office versus 70 in the Bellevue office. Right. And half of those report up to me, but is it possible that expectations were low because it was underwater too. you know, I, in retrospect, you know, I didn't know at the time, but I moved out there and bought a house and then they later told me, yeah, you had a year. And then we were pulling the plug, you know, like, of course, I didn't know. You know, I'm like, well, you shoulda have told me I would've rented. Right. But what made me successful? Right. I'm just, I'm a kind of a collegial guy, you know, everybody receptionist manager, whoever I'm just a nice, you know, guy out there trying to help everybody out and to, you know, and, and, uh, sit and chat with you at your desk, whatever it is. Right. And people wanted me to succeed. They wanted me help. So if I, if I came and asked you, Hey, can you move my file to the top of the stack, please? And they'd say, and then what do you know, at the end of the month, that happens a few times and my numbers are better than the guy next to me. Right. And that's how you kind of get ahead on some level mm-hmm and I was able to do it in, in, in Boise. It was really hands on. It was like I going on the sales calls with you and I will promise them for you and I will deliver for you. And you are here with me, right? Right. Bellevue different, different, uh, can worms, right? Yeah. I'm literally the youngest manager in the company's history. There's a real established people. The people who have been older than me and doing it longer than me and it hit me and I had no leadership training, you know, nobody came and said, go through this course or hear any mentor. You that's it right there. And you learn really quickly. It's. Not about producing you, can't go out and make all the calls. You can't solve all the problems. You have to empower people and get the most outta people. And it becomes all about these interpersonal skills, right. Hiring, right. People not being afraid to fire people, put people on performance improvement plans. Yeah. Psychology that goes into it. Right. You know, how you handle different people and, um, it's a totally different skill set once you get into a, a leadership role.
John Raffetto:Yeah. And you, and you mentioned something that I think. Worth pointing out for, you know, for people who are either themselves looking to make that, that transition or for companies that are managing people through a transition like that, there is training required. You know, my, my, uh, business partner likes to talk about how, uh, for a lot of roles, it takes a year to learn the job like a new job, at least. And the more senior you are, it can take, it can take two years to really. The job that doesn't only apply to coming into a new job from another company, right. That, that it also includes making a shift in role inside your existing company. And so, you know, savvy companies know this larger companies, typically they, they understand this they've, this is a well worn path. And so they have training programs, they invest in it. They allow for some patients, you know, for people to make that transition. I think smaller companies. They just may not be as savvy about it. And they might just pluck people out and throw them into the new job and expect that they're going to do it well, but really. The company itself, uh, needs to recognize that that's a transition that requires training. And even if the company doesn't recognize it, the individual, you know, the person who's, who's going through that transition themselves, they need to realize themselves that it's gonna take time. You do have to afford yourself some training, and if the company isn't gonna provide it.
Tim Flood:You're gonna have to go seek it out. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to do that yourself. So in 15 years you must have had, you know, some people come into your organization that have risen through the ranks. Right? Some people that started in one position and have risen. Is there anything, I mean, can you tell when somebody is, is going to be a good leader down the road is what do you look out for? What makes you say that about somebody?
John Raffetto:Yeah. Yes. There's two, two key attributes that I have identified, uh, that, that I would say are early indicators, transition success, uh, from individual contributor to leader. Uh, one is just a hunger to learn asking lots of questions of leadership, trying to understand the levers of the business. Not just, not just. You know, how do I do this part of my job, but why is this person doing that job? And how does that affect me and how can I work with them? Uh, why do you, why do you structure contracts this way? Or why do you design, you know, client engagements this way? Um, so just this hunger to learn and lots of questions about the business. Again, going back to this concept of working on the business, not just in the business, the second thing. And of course I. A little bit of a bias because I'm in the communications business, but good communicators. You know, you have to be a good communicator to be a manager, a leader, to advocate for your people to advocate for your team's ideas inside a larger organization. And so when I see people who are effective communicators, uh, regardless of, of who they could be communicating with colleagues, they could be communicating with co uh, clients. They could be communicating with higher ups. If they've got sort of an in. Communication skill in place, then that would be, I would say that's for like a second leading indicator of potential success in that transition. And I think, you know, the communications one's really interesting Warren buffet. I remember reading not too long ago. He had, he had said, um, if you want to increase your worth professionally, uh, by 50%. Invest in communications becoming a better communicator. And in fact, he, uh, he was a terrible communicator, apparently. Like it, it, you know, he had heart palpitations when he had to, to speak to other people in meetings or in front, in front of an audience of any kind, uh, you know, board boardrooms or what have you. And so he, uh, invested in a Dale Carnegie course, you know, on public speak. And apparently in his office, his humble little office that he has, you know, like yours, he has, he doesn't have his, his college degrees. He's got an undergrad degree. He's got a graduate degree from Columbia. I think those aren't the degrees that he has hanging on his wall. It's his. Dale Carnegie public speaking course. That's what he's proud of. Okay. That, that's what he's proud of, but he, he can make that's, he can do no wrong.
Tim Flood:Right. Um, I I'm reading, I'm reading the book, uh, empowered by Marty Kagan and it's dedicated to the, uh, product management field. And there was a, a note in there and it make, it brings true in this conversation where in order to develop. Someone's ability to present. Right? Um, you've gotta give them opportunities to do that. The first time they make a big presentation should not be to the board of directors. Right. Right. Give them some low stakes opportunities. Yeah. Things that, you know, they know like the back of their hand and the more comfortable you are with what you're talking about, the better job you're gonna be communicating it. So if you're an aspiring leader, look for those opportunities. If you're trying to develop leaders, throw those bounce, passes to your people.
John Raffetto:That's great. Great. Yeah. We, we do that in our company where, uh, you know, we have an all hands meeting once a month. And so we look for, um, an opportunity in each of those, uh, meetings to have a team come and present, uh, to the rest of the firm. We see it as training ground for public speaking, for, uh, improving those, uh, skills external to the firm. But this is an area where you. It's okay. If people fail at it, you know, cuz it's a safe space. Um, but you do have to create those opportunities for people. Or like you said, you know, if you're, if you're in a company that's not actively cultivating those opportunities for, for aspiring leaders then, and, and you are yourself, an aspiring leader, then you gotta go find those opportunities in the company, you know?
Tim Flood:Yeah. Nominate yourself. To do a presentation. Yeah. You know, one more thing about communication and we'll maybe move on a little bit, but I feel like a lot of times folks, especially earlier in their career and I was guilty of this, you're in a meeting and there's some execs and this is your chance for some FaceTime and you feel compelled to just say something. Yeah. So they remember you're in the room or maybe they'll think you're smart or you have some idea. And I've learned that over time, it's more important to be an active listener and not chime in just to chime in. But if, if you get this reputation of being someone that is quiet, but when you do chime in it, is it adds value.
John Raffetto:That's gonna take you further. And if you're. Working with good leaders, they're going to make sure that everybody gets a chance to opine and they don't have to insert themselves and just get that perspective. Yeah, I think you're right. If, if you can be an active listener and then you do get around to speaking up, I, uh, I remember early in my career. Being in room, you know, I was what I dunno, 23, 24. And I'm in a room with a bunch of what, 40 year olds and they're old and they're so smart, you know, they've been doing it for so long and I'm sitting there thinking, I feel like I need to contribute in this meeting, but I can't possibly contribute anything of strategic or creative value compared to these people because they've been doing it for so long. And of course, you know, it's Washington DC. They're all taking all the oxygen out of the room. Anyway. Now for me, I was the guy. I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna say something because I cannot let this meeting end without people turning their heads and noticing that I'm in the room too. Now this is the 23 year old you okay. But this is the 23 year old, right? Yes. But, um, but. Yeah. I mean, I think the, what you definitely don't want to be is the person who never says anything agree quietly and is just sort of intimidated from, from saying anything. So if you can blend the two active listening and speaking up. Something smart, even if it's just a little thing yeah. Even if it's just asking a question, maybe it, sometimes it's asking a smart question. Sometimes it's just pointing out the question and, and, uh, not being afraid to, you know, have the dumb question, you know, be like, well, whoa, why are we doing that again? Is that, you know, you know. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, but yeah, not, not chiming in just for the sake of, uh, of having as much screen time as, as, as the people that are senior to you when it comes to communications.
Tim Flood:Yeah, well, I jotted down, I had a few ideas and this is, this is the part of the show where I throw out ideas. You blindly validate them for me. No. Um, okay. Just no, some like tactical things, right. That you can do, no matter what your, your position is to act like a leader, be perceived as a leader, give you a bullet point in your resume. That sounds like a leader. And you tell me what you think of some of these things, right? Okay. And some of the mindsets, right. um, first thing I thought of, and these are just, these are just Timisms here, right? Okay. You're coming on and probably, I don't know, 80, 90% of onboarding processes when you start somewhere. Are just chaos and they suck and there should be a position. And especially in big companies that just is, you know, onboarding, you know, uh, Sherpa. Right. So how about when you're in a position you just capture a doc of all the things that you go through, make it easier to, you know, reach down and help that next person onboard, right? Yeah. So you don't need any special skills. You're just doing documentation business pro. Now that's called business process design. Right. And that's called your okay.
John Raffetto:I, I validate that validate you go that's spot on. And that's a job of a leader too, right? You're you're working on the business. So you you're by documenting that process. You're creating efficiencies for the next hundred people, you know, that are coming in the door.
Tim Flood:There you go. Exactly. And so now how many more man hours am I saving by helping EV the next guy on ramp quicker and start to contribute to the business? Right. The other thing in terms of, uh, documentation is, and, and I've done this at times and I, and I'm impressed when I see this is just after a meeting. Send a follow up of what happened on that meeting. Right. And it's almost like you were the one doing it, but you don't need to say that, but you can just say here's the notes that I captured and the, and the action items that I captured. And this goes toward sort of like project management, right? This is a project manager in my world that should be doing this. But I would say 95% of the meetings I attend there is not necessarily an agenda or if there's an agenda and a follow up recap, that's, that's one in a million, right? Yeah. I validate that too. I think, um, for what it's, I'm also validated. I think, um, I would even go a step further and this is sort of blends two things together, public speak.
John Raffetto:And, you know, the follow up, uh, email, but at the end of the meeting, it's highly valuable when somebody speaks up and says, okay, before we all break, let me just make sure I've captured the three big things that we just all agreed to. Yeah. Awesome. Exactly. And then you get your name out there. You're adding value without having to have some brilliant insight, right?
Tim Flood:You're there you go. Really just helping the gears of the business move forward and anybody can do that. And that's sort of what you're, you're trying to do as a leader is get all the, get all these moving parts, go in the same direction, right? Again, that's you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. We gotta be the first documentation. It's just, you know, putting in the time to, to go through, be organized there. And the last one is sort of about documentation, but it's, it's bigger, right? So let's say I assign you to go do this project. You've got all these things. There's all these reasons you can't get it done and you're running late, you know? And, um, you, you come back and your boss says, Hey, where's the progress on project a and you say, you know, I'm working on it. I don't have it. And they need something right. Rather than have excuses. How about you document? Blockers, reframe it. You know, that's how a leader thinks about it is what is the blocker? My job is to remove the blockers so you can go do X and you can go do Y right. You're selling stuff, but we're not delivering it over here. Well, you go sell, I'm gonna remove that blocker. If you just frame the issue and say the issue is I can't access the. And then once I accessed the data, the data was a mess. And then, uh, when I needed revision to it, it took two weeks. Right. So if you just identify this, now you frame, uh, the problem and then kind of give like a menu of options to a leader. That's what they want. You're making their life easier. Right. So now you're framing problems and blockers, instead of just making excuses, you're surfacing it and helping to improve the business process design.
John Raffetto:Right. A lot of times you're hitting, you're struggling, whatever, but instead of just making excuses or hiding from it, or, or what have you take it head on address? It don't throw anybody under the bus. Right.
Tim Flood:You know, definitely not. John is the problem. He used the bottleneck. He never responds to email. And, uh, he he's, his speech is slurred. I'm just saying
John Raffetto:Um, yep. No, I, Val, I validate that as well, Tim. Nice. I think that's spot on and com you know, a part of that too is communication, right? It's like, don't suffer in silence. Don't fail in silence. Don't succeed in silence. I mean, make sure that, you know, the people you work with, the people that depend on you, whether they're direct reports or people that you're reporting to know what's going on and, and see, see you trying to solve problems, but also, you know, aware of the progress that you're making. And don't, don't always just wait for the end result, cuz that end result could be success, but it could also be fail. Uh, so you don't wanna wait until that moment. To be communicative. Right. And, and if it requires problem solving, then try and do that problem solving. So you've done all these practical tips and you get the promotion now.
Tim Flood:Congratulations, John, you're a manager. You are a great project manager. Now you're managing your group of project managers. What now? Right. And he So yeah. How do you succeed then? I mean, um, we talked about just kind of broadly, like interpersonal skills. But essentially you're trying to get other people to accomplish things you're not hands on. You're not gonna deliver. So your ability to deliver is relies on other people. Right? Right. It relies on other people who may not have been the superstars. There may not be the superstars that you were in when you were in that position. Mm-hmm and that can be hard.
John Raffetto:That can be hard for people. Oh yeah. Um, you know, it's like, well, when I was in your job, you know, I used to, I used to. 500 calls a week, you know? And so, so there's a, there's a point where you have to realize that the team of people that you're now leading are different than you were in that job. And that's okay. You know, they may be learning. They may have different perspectives and approaches and ideas. Um, and so your job shifts from you're, you're not trying to create a, a team of individual contributors who were, who, who do it exactly the way you did it when you were in that job. You're trying to empower them to learn, to be as successful as they can. You recognize that people are different, they've got different skills, different strengths. Um, and so you're trying to cultivate them at this point. And I think some people have this tendency to wanna micromanage because they, they get into this new role. They see that their team members aren't doing it the way that they did it when they were in that role. So then they get into micromanaging. Upsets everybody when you're micromanaging, then you're not doing the other stuff that you were hired to do in this new role, the managing yeah. The reporting to, you know, selling your ideas inside the company, executing on bigger strategies. And so then you get overwhelmed because you're trying to do the jobs of two or three people, uh, instead of the job of one effective. Leader, but yeah, that's an important thing to understand is, is you can't expect the team of people that you're leading to, uh, do things exactly the way you did it, did it.
Tim Flood:Absolutely. Even though you were successful, there's a couple things there. One is, there's a, there's a distinction when you, when you get promoted within a company and then you go somewhere else and it's kind of a double edged sword. So when you're promoted within a company, the plus is. You know, the company, you know, the organization, you know, the levers and the challenges and kind of how to get things done. That's how you got there. Right. But the, the flip side of that is, you know, I just got promoted. I was in the cubicle right next to you. You were going for that promotion. You didn't get it. And now you resent me, you know, like mm-hmm you got now you've got a history, right. And you and I are used to going and having beers. And now I'm putting you on a performance improvement plan. so, um, so in my, in this scenario here, I'm above you, John, maybe it's you above me. That's fine. Okay. You put me on performance frequently, but it's, it's, you know, they see themselves, you know, they don't necessarily see you as a leader cause you haven't been a leader versus if you go somewhere new, that's true. Yeah. You, you come in, you are the manager or whatever the title is. Right. And they must think you could do it then I don't even know what your resume is, but you're my manager. And so here we go. I'll snap to it. And so going from collegial to. Right. I don't wanna say telling you what to do, but, um, giving you assignment it's different relationship.
John Raffetto:Yeah. Yeah. It's a different relationship and it it's probably fraught in some cases, you know, especially if there's difficulties in the relationship, sometimes it works great. I think many times it works great, but I, I can see how it could be fraught if there is a performance issue, um, or whatnot. But this is, this does get to something else. I think that, you know, is worth noting, which is you have to be an advocate for your people. And you have to be inspiring to them. This is more of the soft skills, you know, side of management and leadership, but, but you really have to be intentional about that. Some people are NA naturals. I think, you know, at that, and maybe are inspiring without even recognizing it. You know, when, when you and I play tennis, you inspire me to play my best game. is that right? Okay. Okay. You probably don't even recognize it. Yeah. But, um, but everybody should be intentional about this and, and realize that you have people's careers in your hand, you know, and you can get the best out of them by advocating for them and be inspiring, being inspiring to.
Tim Flood:Yeah, absolutely. There's another thing you mentioned. It was, uh, it was micromanagement, right? Mm-hmm and so it is like, you know, I was the best at this. That's why I got promoted. So I know exactly how to get it done. And you have to, you have to get away from that, right? Yeah. It's about the result, not the, the, the way you get it. Right. You know, and I was managing folks. I had, you know, I don't know, a dozen sales people that are at some point, maybe a few more reporting to me and my method was this right. If you are a top performer, go do your thing. I'm here to remove blockers. I'm here for you. You know, you go do your thing and, and, and make the register ring. Right? If you are new or underperforming, you are gonna get more of my time. Now don't look at that as you're in trouble and I'm, uh, a micromanaging, but. If you, if you know that that is me trying to help you and develop you and give you my own time and best advice I'm investing in you. Right. If that's the perception versus I'm riding you till you, you know, coach'em up, coach'em out, right. Mm-hmm but you spend a disproportionate amount of your time with the people that are new and underperformers, you've gotta develop them up. Yeah.
John Raffetto:Um, I think that's the balance and you know, I, I love this. I heard the saying and I love it. Don't know where I heard. It just stuck with me and it, the number one job of a leader is to build other leaders. Hmm. And especially as you are. You know, stepping into leadership roles, you have to make those investments in people, the investments in people to help them learn the basics of their job as individual contributors. But if you're truly an effective leader, you're also going to be identifying other people, you know, who are future potential leaders. And so you wanna be investing in them and developing them as well. Um, because presumably, you know, the first time you move into a leadership position is not the last. Unless you just fail spectacularly. you're gonna be moving up and up and up. It's not a good fit. And you see that a lot in like in sales, right.
Tim Flood:They always say the top salesman makes more this manager and it's like, why would you leave? You know? And it's like, you're the one that gets to play golf each week and, uh, right, right. Doesn't necessarily, uh, you know, I'm sure that's, that's, that's true in a lot of things, right. Because sometimes just personality wise, too.
John Raffetto:You're great coder or you're great. Um, you know, product manager, person, you know, any. Type of position. Um, there's, uh, an aptitude, an appetite and the level of communication and, and, uh, charisma and all that, that, that may not be the path you want to go. Right. That's right. Yeah. Some people are happy, just, just coding. Absolutely. And you can make a great living, coding, be a superstar apparently. So, and yeah. So, yeah. Um, well, um, you know, each week I like to, to sort of issue a challenge out, um, to, to our listeners. And so I, if I just have two or more, then that S is, is justified John. So instead of just listening, okay.
Tim Flood:Hopefully someone beyond my wife will, will listen to the show here. absolutely. Uh, so for, for this week, I think, um, Go online here. Here's what, here's what there there's, if you just search for, you know, leadership skills inventory, you'll find an infinite, infinite, uh, supply out there and start to identify and just look at yourself in that light. Right. And so, Start to act like a leader, no matter what position you're in. Look for opportunities. We mentioned a couple specifics you can go do in terms of sort of documentation, but frame problems instead of solving them document the issues and the blockers that you face. Uh, but start to look at those things that, that are widely accepted as leaders and start to work on those things. Now don't wait till you're in our leadership position. You're more likely to move up and more likely to succeed. Um, if you display those characteristics where wherever you are in your career, That's great. Yeah. And I would say know, you know, know your strength and know, know, you know, I don't like to call'em weaknesses, but know your blind spots or what have you, and, you know, lean into your strengths or there's tools that you can do on as test you can take online and books, you can read to help you suss out what you're really good at in terms of the leadership quadrant. Uh, and then the things that you're not, that, that don't come natural to you, you can either develop them or surround yourself with people who can fill in those holes, you know, for you. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for your time, John. I really appreciate it. Know you're busy guy and, uh, I, I appreciate you taking the time.
John Raffetto:My pleasure. Great to be with you. All right. Take.