Napoleon: Are biopics bad for history?

We couldn’t resist the controversy around Ridley Scott’s new movie, so this week we’re discussing Napoleon and wading into the debate about historical accuracy and film. But what do you think? Let us know on instagram - @groovymoviespod.

References
Ridley Scott profile by Michael Schulman for The New Yorker
Ridley Scott’s response to Napoleon’s critics by Caroline Frost for Deadline
Ridley Scott’s response to criticism of the Egyptian invasion scene in Napoleon by Adam Bentz on Screen Rant
‘Napoleon on trial: The battle for historical accuracy of the upcoming film’ by Prateek Dasgupta for Medium
‘Great man or monster - who was the real Napoleon?’ by Dominic Sandbrook for The Times
‘The Ugly Truth about Napoleon and Josephine’ by ElleHistory on YouTube
Facts on Napolean
Oppenheimer BBC documentary

Film Pharmacy
Frances Ha (2012) dir. by Noah Baumbach
Zodiac (2007) dir. by David Fincher

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Transcript

James: Show the moves, boss. Yeah, you fuck up that sphinx's head.

Lily: Welcome to Groovy Movies. My name is Lily 

James: Austin. And my name is James Brailsford. 

Lily: You didn't say hello, James. 

James: Oh shit, sorry. I got distracted taking my, uh, my, my glasses off. That 

Lily: completely threw me. I'm not used to it without a hello. 

James: Sorry. Hello. 

Lily: Welcome to the podcast, guys. And this week we are talking about Napoleon, Ridley Scott's new film, and we're wading into the controversy by asking the question, are biopics bad for history?

James: Oh, are they bad for history? Yeah, good question. Excellent question. I mean, but, but then, but then is historical accuracy bad for storytelling? You know? Oh, I love 

Lily: that. Flip it, flip it and reverse it. Perfect. Okay. So we have two, we have two questions to grapple with because last week we were wading our way trying to figure out.

Quite, I think, sensitive questions about class. Now we're onto history. Some would say we're out of our depth and I would say to them, 

James: quite possibly. I would say like Ridley Scott would said to historians, were you there mate? Well, how do you know? 

Lily: Yeah, I'm obsessed with, with Ridley Scott's responses to criticism, but we'll get into it.

So I guess we should start with a plot synopsis. Which seems absurd for a historical figure such as Napoleon. Uh, so I feel like actually I've gotten away, it's my turn to plot synopsis, but I've gotten away with an easy one because it's the life and times of Napoleon. 

James: Oh I see, I mean, absolutely, yeah, that's the, that's the headline.

That's the 

Lily: headline, I mean, spoilers, it's not spoilers, but it's also not, I don't think we need to get into it. He, a lot of battles and his, I guess the thing that you may not know about him, if you're not French, I guess, and I didn't really know is that he had an interesting relationship with his wife, Josephine, quite complex.

And so the film's kind of two halves in a way, right? It's his personal life and romantic life and the complexity around that. And then also him is the battles. I was going to say as a general, but I think he was first a general. That an emperor tyrant, him doing, doing a lot of wars. 

James: He was the boss man of the wars.

Yeah. But yeah, so, sorry, is that the plot summary or was that the preamble to the plot summary? 

Lily: I'm sorry, that was a very, very big pause. Uh, I think that is the plot summary. What else, what else is there to say 

James: really? No, I mean, he kind of, he, yeah, yeah, that's kind of the gist of it really, isn't it? Yeah.

We can get into, obviously, the discussion of historical accuracy and what is that bad for history. Yeah. But like, to me, I, I ultimately, I just want to be entertained by a well told story. Yeah. 

Lily: Let's do the review. What did you think of it? A 

James: sprawling mess, and like unfocused, yeah. I came away from the film feeling like I didn't really know like Napoleon.

I felt like, I don't know, I felt unengaged from it. Really? 

Lily: Yeah. Wow. I was the opposite. Go on. In fact, I was, um, as I was falling asleep last night, I was thinking about Napoleon. The film, not the actual man, and I, and a metaphor came to my head, so I scrawled it in my notes. Can I read you my review? Oh, please!

Napoleon is how I think of a roast dinner. I wouldn't want it often, it's not anywhere even close to my favorite meal, but it's event dining. And when I have it, I enjoy it, it's rich, it's indulgent, it's tasty, it's filling. When you've, when you're done, you're sated. I feel so sated by my viewing experience.

Thank you, Ridley Scott. 

James: Wow. 

Lily: I really enjoyed myself. I was having a great time. 

James: Talk me through, because I'm glad, because I just thought, Christ, if both of us didn't have a great time, this is not going to be a great review, so God, I love 

Lily: how I think we're becoming less simpatico the more this goes on, which I think is good.

People like a bit of 

James: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm glad that one of us liked it. Genuinely, I'm just like, Oh Christ, I don't 

Lily: know about you. I know exactly what you mean though, James. Um, I just really enjoyed the spectacle of it. I liked seeing the battles. I liked him and I think Joaquin Phoenix was Brilliant.

I think Vanessa Kirby as Josephine was brilliant. I, I just enjoyed watching them all, but I know exactly what you mean. It's weird. I think Ridley Scott, this is often a criticism of him that it's more spectacle than substance. You don't really get in. Like, I think it was the same with Gladiator, right?

It's more about the look of it than really, like, they, he tried, the weird thing is he really tries to get you feeling things. He does a lot, it's not like with Nolan where he kind of avoids that stuff altogether. Scott is interested in it, but he just isn't very good at 

James: getting there. He isn't very good at getting it, no, he's very simplistic, like, like.

I've read a lots of stuff in the interviews, uh, that he's done about how this is going to have an extra hour in it on streaming. And I can imagine that that might go some way to potentially redressing the issues. I just felt it was very fragmentary, very episodic, whereas, for example, let's compare it to another recent hit biopic, which was Oppenheimer, which kind of chose.

Very select moments of his life and, and, and focus the story around those select moments here. We kind of tried it, trying to hit everything really. And I found myself not understanding Napoleon's motivations. It really understanding much as a character. Um, and that, that, that then, I mean, obviously I love a good action sequence.

I love a good battle. I love spectacle. I'm all for that. And it was, I saw it at the year, the IMAX. So, you know, that, that all looked, it did, did the trick, but because I was. Disengage with his story. I didn't, I dunno, I was like, not another one. And I shouldn't be thinking that when I'm watching these epic battles.

Lily: No, you should. That's, that's totally understandable. It's weird that I was, I was so engaged. What's wrong with me? What's happened 

James: to us? Normally you're zoning out at the 

Lily: action. Yeah, but I, I don't know. Ridley Scott, he does a good. He does a good fight scene. I was really, I was like, come on, you guys . I was like, so I, I was becoming such imperialist.

I was like, I'm . Oh my God. In there. Yeah. You can conquer conquer con. That's it. Conquer concrete Egypt . 

James: Show the moves, bud. Yeah. You fuck up that shin's head. Yeah. . Yeah. Like, like I, I'm definitely not a sticker for stickler for historical accuracy, but right at the start, I did think, wait, how old's Napoleon when he gets started with his military campaign?

Because it's Jacqueline Phoenix, Jacqueline Phoenix playing him throughout his entire life. And so I realized that. He's going to be playing, he's going to be acting, he's going to be older than the historical figure was, but when I did some reading afterwards, I was like, Oh, right. So the very first successful campaign that we've seen in the film, he was like 25 and, and obviously with the film, you'd get, you get no indication of how much of a young, like, um, upstart or young genius he is on the 

Lily: battlefield.

Yeah. Okay. So this is my contradictory feeling about. Joaquin Phoenix is, I love the way you say Joaquin Phoenix, by the way. Oh, shit, am I totally Jaquin. Jaquin Phoenix? It's Joaquin. What was Joaquin. Joaquin, sorry. Joaquin, because it's Spanish. 

James: Joaquin. Yeah. Oh, Joaquin Phoenix, right. Okay, 

Lily: thanks. That's the, oh my god, can we just pause for a moment?

Because this is the one time I know how to pronounce something and you're not telling me , this is a moment. Anyway, back to this. Is it guys? Now someone's gonna write it and be like, no, you got it. Horribly wrong. But anyway, he, uh, I love him in this role. I think he does well, . He, I think, from what I understand of Napoleon in, in popular culture, I think he looks a bit like him.

It's quite good. But, uh. Yeah, the minute I started, because we're going to be talking about historical accuracy, I began doing a bit of research about Napoleon. And it quickly becomes apparent that the real story of Napoleon and Josephine is way more interesting than the film portrayed. So for me, it was very interesting that we've got all these like clickbaity, tick tocky, viral complaints about, oh, he didn't really, bomb the pyramids or whatever.

And I'm like, that is actually the hyperbolic bits of the least of it. It's the fact that it could have been way more interesting because as you say, Napoleon was way younger. I mean, he died at 51. That's basically the same age Joaquin Phoenix is now. So he was way too old to play the part. I was thinking, why didn't Ridley Scott make this film 10 years ago?

Worked a lot better. Yeah The for me one of the most fascinating things about him and Josephine is that she is six years older than Napoleon Yeah, they on when they got married she lied and wrote her age as four years younger He made his a year older to try and bridge that gap really and obviously A huge part of their story is about the fact that he was desperate to have a son and she couldn't give him a child.

And when you're watching the film, you're thinking, Oh, I wonder why that is. It's so odd because she has her children. Because Vanessa Kirby is 35, it's like, doesn't make sense that she can't have children. And they can't talk about the fact in the film that she's too old. That can't be a plot point because it doesn't make sense of how she looks.

When actually, the real woman would have been in her 40s. It makes a lot more sense. Yeah. And I just think it's fucking, it's bullshit. I'm sorry that like, I love Vanessa Kirby in this role. She's fantastic. But why couldn't we have had a woman who was older playing this part? That is such a 

James: more interesting dynamic.

I completely agree with you on this, that the dynamics way more interesting to have an older, this powerful man, but yet the relationship he has in his romantic life is with an older woman and they met when he was quite a younger man as well. And so. You know, the fact that their relationship started with that, that age difference when he was a younger man and it continued through his life, that there's probably a power dynamic there that is unique.

And he just not being there, it kind of, I think it undercut a lot of, a lot of potential for interesting drama and dynamics between the characters. 

Lily: Definitely. And not just that, it's also the fact that it's only really skimmed over the fact that Napoleon is from Corsica and reading about his. Backstory.

You're right, James. We don't really know a lot about what's motivating him. And actually, if they'd have included more about that, it would have told us a lot. So he was from Corsica. He didn't learn French until he was 11. So he's very much an outsider. And even though he was from a kind of an aristocratic type, uh, family in Corsica, you're not on the ends in Paris.

If you're from a Corsican family, you know, Right. And actually part of the reason he wanted to get with Josephine was because she was part of that aristocratic world. She was his ticket in. It was, if he hadn't have married her, he wouldn't have had the kind of social capital to make it, to become emperor.

So there's all this, it wasn't just that he fell in love with her, though, clearly their letters, they were very much in love with each other. A huge part of it was the political move of doing that, which we don't get at all. 

James: So again, like him being a good military commander, this was a very strategic move to position him in power.

Exactly. 

Lily: Super interesting. We didn't get any of it. Yep. 

James: Yeah, I thought that was the detriment of the film. Again, I don't need it to be historically accurate. I mean, every biopic and every true story, you know, based on a true story, conflates things and compresses things. I just felt like this somehow Chose to skip the things that I was interested in.

I wanted to know what motivated him, what you just described to me. I was like, Oh, I had no idea. I had no idea that he didn't even speak French until he was 11. That's a fascinating spin. It, we, we, we kind of just got thrown into the story already. He's a genius. He's great. We kind of, you know, he's the Napoleon that I kind of imagined, you know, I wanted to see how he got there or what drove him, why does he want to be emperor?

Totally. 

Lily: The other thing. that I found very interesting, which they kind of touch on a bit, but don't really go into fully. It's the fact that it was said that a lot of historians have argued that he only cared about two things himself and his family. He had all of these siblings and he made them all like he made his brother, Joseph King of Naples and his brother, Louis King of Holland.

His sister, Eliza, the grand Duchess of Tuscany, he's going around giving countries each of his family members. I just, they were like super, super tight knit. I was thinking, this is like the Corsican Kardashians. They were outsiders just like the Kardashians were in Hollywood. And then they took over and like, that would have been an amazing story.

I mean, okay. It's, it's not what Ridley Scott was interested in doing, but, and actually arguably, like I wouldn't have known any of this. If I hadn't watched this movie, so yeah, I kind of think there is an argument for whatever the film you make of a historical figure, it's going to, it raises some awareness about that person.

So that does something that's useful to history. I think, 

James: I mean, I, I've now done more research on the self directed research on Napoleon after the fact, after watching this film than ever 

Lily: before. Yeah. Though would we have done it if we didn't have a podcast, is the question. No, God no. The one thing I was, I didn't really understand why Josephine had that amazing, very sexy, short cut of hair at the start.

Like I realized it must be to do with the prison. 

James: Well, I think it was also for survivors. It was, it was like a, it was, it was a status symbol to show that they'd survived. Yeah. So I think your hair was only cropped off just before you were about to get guillotined. So it didn't, it didn't just stop the blade.

So your hair would be shaved off to help your head get chopped off. So those who survived, it was like almost a sign to say, I survived this. See, why didn't they 

Lily: explain that? That's fascinating. Okay. Like you can't do everything, but that, that must've been very traumatic and there's a lot to get into with that.

So the other thing that was odd about the film, right, was that they used. The same, but for the like emotional scenes between Josephine and Napoleon, they use the same music that they use in Joe Wright's Pride and Prejudice. Did they? Yes. It was so weird because every time that would come on, I would just be imagining the, the Bennett sisters playing in their house.

But it was the same era. So I kind of thought, well, like it put me, it kind of contextualized, I was, began thinking about what was happening in England at around the same time. So I don't know. It sort of set me up in a nice way for the final battle, but Right. It's a bit odd. It was odd 'cause like that is, so anyone who is a fan of that movie, that is what you'll think of.

So it kind of is distracting, takes you out of it. Right. 

James: So I guess it must be a period piece of music that's been used in both films, right? Interesting. I didn't clock that. I don't think I've seen Pride and Prejudice, I'm afraid. Oh, 

Lily: well, just you wait, James. Just you wait. There's more to come. 

James: But, um, so, yeah, I mean, obviously, put me in mind, I was watching this thinking, obviously, there's the The greatest unmade film of all time is, uh, Stanley Kubrick's, uh, Attempt at Napoleon, which when, when we went to see 2001 together, um, I was very excited because a little, uh, merchandise stand at the, uh, uh, festival, Royal Festival Hall, they had, uh, the Kubrick Napoleon book, which had all the research and all the stuff about the, yeah, so I bought that when we went to 2001.

Lily: Yeah, I remember that now. Oh my God. 

James: So good. And it's so, like, it's the, The reason why, why Kubrick never made it is that he just went down. I think he just went down the rabbit hole with the research. So whereas I think Ridley Scott could be accused of quite the opposite of doing very little light touch research, Kubrick researched the point that he couldn't, he kind of almost, it was almost like he got himself stuck really by trying to make sure it was the most historically accurate film.

Lily: I mean, that is Kubrick to a T, right? But, I think, I, uh, from the reading I've done, Ridley Scott had a lot of experts doing research for him. So I don't, I don't think it's that he didn't, I read this really interesting profile of him in the New Yorker, I'll put it in the show notes, and the profile, I mean, he was a little bit Snide.

I thought at times, but he compares him to Napoleon himself. And that does kind of come across a bit in, in the profile. Like he, this is a man with a lot of ego and a lot of will to achieving what he wants to achieve. And I think for him, like, I don't think it wasn't the, it wasn't that the research wasn't done.

It's just that he didn't really care. He's very happy to dispense with it wherever he pleases. And I mean, just like Kubrick, if Kubrick had made that film, it would have still been Kubrick's Napoleon. I think that's, that's what's so funny about all this controversy around the historical inaccuracies.

It's like we're pretty, to be truly outraged, you have to pretend. These films are trying to be historical. Yeah. Oh yeah. I, that, you know, trying to capture fact and we all know that's not what films do. So they're always going to be a particular director's version of a characterization. And in this, I mean, apparently Ridley Scott's son even said that like, There's always a character in every one of his films who is like Ridley Scott, and they're usually kind of a side character, but in this, Napoleon is definitely Ridley Scott, which I 

James: thought was very telling.

It's his self insert. Amazing. Um, I mean, yeah, because he, he, you know, Ridley Scott prides himself on pulling off big films and he, and he, you know, I mean, he directed Napoleon in 62 days, which, and he says in an interview, if any, anybody who knows anything about filmmaking, Napoleon should have been 120 day movie and like, so he's bragging and it is quite true.

Like I don't think any of the director could have made that three hour film about Napoleon's life with all those battle sequences in 62 days. Like the A a a a conventional action movie is like a 90 day to a hundred and something day shoot. You know? So, so he did that on that. That's the fact that Ridley Scott is a very experienced director, you know, who's like.

What, in the fifth decade? Sixth decade of his career? He's 

Lily: 87. Christ, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. And he's so busy. Still, right now he's in the midst of Gladiator 2 with, uh, with Paul Mescal. 

James: And Denzel Washington. Yeah. You know, I love his flex, um, against Scorsese when he said, Oh yeah, well, in the time that Scorsese started on Killers of the Flower Moon, I've made four films.

Lily: I know. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I'm like, I'm sorry, but it's quality, not quantity. Like if you look at Ridley Scott's back catalog, there are some of, it's weird. One of my favorite films is in there, Thelma and Louise, but also like so many bad, bad movies. Like. It's like, honey, it's something to brag about that you made for, like, admittedly, he's getting in, like, all those films, I think have been fairly good, like, you know, The Last Jewel and everything.

He's getting, he's getting into a swing now that he's in his eighties, but even so. 

James: Yeah, I mean, this is the thing I like, Napoleon was well crafted, but I just. Wasn't engaged with a story. I found myself bored at times, which I don't know. I shouldn't have been bored about an action film about Napoleon. I really wasn't 

Lily: bored.

It did drag a bit towards the end, but it's like, I feel like that is a feature of a biopic rather than maybe the bug, which is like, you're trying to squeeze in a person's. whole life into two and a half hours, though, I will say the weird thing, right, was that even though a lot of the film is taken up with various different battles during the film, I didn't get a great sense of all the wars that he was waging.

Right? And one of the things that I, one of the few things I know about Napoleon that I learned at school was I remember reading this. This piece about his, the processions through Paris of all of the jewels and the artwork and all the plunder they took from these countries that they conquered. And like people would come out into the streets and watch, watch as this parade of like horses carrying all this stuff would walk through the streets and everyone would clap like this is amazing.

I did try and Google to verify that, that it wasn't a fake memory and I couldn't actually find anything confirming. But I, I believe it to be true. It's definitely true that he did plunder a lot. And I thought. That would have been an amazing spectacle of a scene and it would have just let us know what was going on and I feel like there was like a really a missing piece of the like, that kind of colonial conquering element was kind of missing from it.

It was so just battle Josephine, battle Josephine and I wanted a bit more of that sense of, What you, cause I mean reading this, this is a man who did like so many terrible things, so many good things. He like, he was like designing the currency whilst he was battling. He was coming up with a higher education system whilst he was also like rolling back women's rights.

There was like so much that he was getting into good and bad and we didn't get any sense of that. It was just seems like he liked, he liked war really. 

James: I mean, I mean, I guess it's difficult to show on screen, but I didn't really get a sense of his genius at battles. You know, the 

Lily: battles were impressive. I thought he was doing a great job.

I mean, I thought like it came across that he was, he was a good, I don't 

James: know what the word is. Tactician, military tactician. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I read in one of the Ridley Scott's interviews, he says that, uh, one sequence that had to get cut was, uh, Napoleon and his piles. And, uh, so apparently in the, uh, Apple plus TV version, there may be extended sequences of piles because apparently if you're fighting on a horse, that's like having a migraine.

A migraine in your bum is to quote Ridley Scott's 

Lily: word for word. I think that's why Joaquin Phoenix was so stiff. He walked so stiffly. I'm serious. I'm deadly serious. 

James: Because apparently like ya Quin gone damn 

Lily: wacking, just say Wack whack. Wacking 

James: w Wack in Phoenix. 'cause apparently Wacking Phoenix said to Ruly Scott a couple of weeks before shooting me began, I have no hide, no idea how to play this.

And I did feel watching it that I. I mean, I couldn't tell if that the idea was the character was a bit lost and cast adrift, but if he's meant to be this, um, you know, character who becomes the emperor, you'd think he was, I don't know. I just felt that the characterization I felt was a bit uncertain. Um, I don't know.

Lily: Yeah, I read that as just his personality, but I know that that was one of the things that like, like French historians and, and. And French kind of critics have said is that it doesn't capture any of Napoleon's 

James: But they weren't there, so how do they know? Well, 

Lily: quite. Well, let's get into it. So do you think it's bad that there are all these historical accuracies?

No. 

James: I don't. Not at all. And why not? Because as you touched upon earlier, I'm like you. I don't go to fiction films, even if they are based on true stories. To for historical accuracy. I go in knowing that there'll have been liberties taken. Characters will have probably been combined situations content. So it's just.

As long as I meant to take, I just feel that in this particular instance, there are some fascinating historical details or historical points that I think would have made the drama more interesting, would have, for me, made the film a bit more engaging and even though I'm not a stickler for it, I think there were opportunities for good drama missed by not being historically accurate in some cases.

Mm. 

Lily: But do you not think, so, the criticism that has often been leveled at, like, The Crown, say, that TV show. Is that if you present these things, uh, these hysterical moments in such a way, even though it's dramatized, there is, it does come across as if this is what actually happened. And I even had that, like, the people I saw the film Napoleon with, we were all saying, oh, yeah, that, that fight on the ice must have happened and it didn't happen, like, so I checked afterwards.

So, um. You're then creating a sense of history that is just not correct. Is that bad? 

James: When you say it like that, I guess if that's, if, yeah, I mean, I just, I'm, I'm all for not, not stymieing storytellers. Um, is it bad? I would like to think that people watching Napoleon are at least aware that there's something more going on.

If, if the audience are going to de facto just say, right, I've been told the truth, then yeah, it's probably bad, but I'd like to, I'd like to credit film going audiences with a bit more than that, with that. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. 

Lily: I mean, I'm asking you that question. I don't really think it is. I know. 

James: Sorry.

I know. I know. It's not, it's not your strongly held belief. Sorry. 

Lily: I, I mean, I don't think. Like, I, I can see why there would, might be some concern about that, but I also kind of think, get real, like, it's not as if history Get a life, as Ridley Scott said. Get a life! What was it? Yeah. Fuck off, was the other thing he said.

James: Probably. Shut the fuck up, 

Lily: I think it was. Uh, I mean, the premise of this criticism is that history It's objective fact what is in the history books objective fact and we know that is not true Anyway, you know, what is that expression that was it? Churchill said about history is 

James: written written by the winners.

Yeah, the 

Lily: victors. Exactly. Exactly. So There's that and also there's the there's just the fact that yeah, we weren't there and we weren't there and the way History is disseminated it it becomes What we all agree is, is the history or we don't even agree it because the whole point of history as an academic principle is that there's so much debate in it all the time.

Historians are constantly arguing about what happened or what or what these events mean. And so. It's kind of a full, like, it's a false premise to this anyway. And, and also Napoleon himself, he was myth making in his own time, right? Like, that is well known. Like, so much about what was happening in these wars was falsified.

So, I think there's enough space for debate that it's like We're not even on stable ground to start making this criticism, but I think what it is I was thinking that and I was like, why is it that Napoleon and like the crown the royal family? That is so controversial. Whereas, you know Ridley Scott made House of Gucci and it was known that there was a lot of historical inaccuracies in that film and people weren't getting So upset about it.

It didn't become tick tock viral videos. And I think it's just that These monumental national figures, they are so they embody a nation's identity, right? So it feels very personal to the people watching it. And so then opportunistic historians and people such as ourselves can jump on that to talk about it.

And it can become this big controversy when really the actuality of it is that it's not, that doesn't, that doesn't detract from those figures. If anything, it just adds to it. You know, I think we just have to like, we, we shouldn't pretend like these, uh, These are historically accurate pieces of work because we all know that they're not kind of what I 

James: said before.

Exactly. Exactly. Like my, my main thing is I just want to be entertained. I want to be kind of pulled along by the story. I just felt it was very episodic. It felt like when I watched, I just felt like I was watching a cut down of a TV series. It felt like there were interesting bits missing or how did I really kind of, there was a lot of characters as well.

I mean, I don't know if I'm just getting a bit old, but I was like, who's that? And why, why, and I kept feeling like I'd just zoned out for a minute and missed something, which maybe I did, but I just feel like it just felt very choppy in places. 

Lily: Yeah. I was, I was a bit confused at the beginning. I didn't quite know what he was planning, who he was in the rankings of anything.

I do think there was a certain, he obviously wasn't making this film for a French audience. I don't think, or at least he wasn't trying to, uh, to. Appeal to French, 

James: he wasn't going out of his way to appeal to French sensibilities. Yeah, I 

Lily: felt in some ways it did come across a bit anti French in the way like the revolutionaries and stuff were portrayed.

And even starting, the very first scene I thought was quite punchy, I was into it, but Marie Antoinette having her head chopped off, it was, it was a lot. Yeah, 

James: I was like, okay. Strong way to start your day. Yeah, yeah, 

Lily: yeah. But, um, having said that, the way the story was told, it assumed you had a lot of knowledge about Napoleon.

And actually, we're not taught a lot about Napoleon at school, I'm sorry to say. Interesting man as he was. So, yeah, I was, I was not sure what was happening all the way through. 

James: Same, same, same, same. And, and doing, and afterwards I did a little bit of reading. I was like, Oh, right. You know, a little bit of research afterwards does help you dot things together a bit.

Yeah. I didn't mind that. 

Lily: I was into it. I 

James: liked it. I said, so mad, isn't it? We've swapped out like that. The last, I, I was. I couldn't wait for the last battle to end and that's bloody Waterloo. That's the big kahuna, but 

Lily: uh, I don't know. That felt a bit anticlimactic, right? Because he said we'll go here and then we'll go to Waterloo.

I was like, are we in here or are we in Waterloo yet? Because also, for me, a huge stumbling block is the fact that when you say Waterloo, I think of the station. So, in my mind, that was where the battles took place. Right outside the main, those stairs, steps up to the station. So them being in a field, I was like Where are we?

I don't know what this is. You'll 

James: never get on the northern line with that battle raging. Yeah, 

Lily: yeah. Um, but to bring it back to this question of historical inaccuracy, I mean, even with like Meryn Trenant and that whole let them eat cake expression, like that is, apparently she never said that. And, and no one, no one knows that we, and it's like, it's okay.

Cause it's a shorthand for her attitudes. Right. Just like, just like with the cannon fire at the pyramids. It's like, I think we all get that. He probably didn't let you do that, but it's just a short 

James: attitude. Exactly. 

Lily: Yeah, it's a vibe. It's 

James: like Look, I definitely did not mind the firing cannonballs at the Sphinx.

See, in fact, I enjoyed that bit. I was like, tee hee, that's fun. It looks good. I know there's a load of cobblers. Looks great. And like I say, it's a statement of intent of the character. Yeah. More stuff like that, I would have been more behind the film. But 

Lily: I did think that if you, if your interest is not in truly engaging with the history, then you run the risk of just perpetuating biases that are already there in film.

Like I thought the fact that Vanessa Kirby was cast playing a role that is much, much younger. I think this is a classic Hollywood thing, right? That women, it's always younger women with old actors. It doesn't, you know. It's, it's not even a thing that whacking Phoenix is nearly 50 and he's playing this, this lead role, whereas women never get the same courtesy.

And in this instance, we have this young, much younger women, women when the actual fact is different and, and, 

James: and, and to the detriment of the drama as we've discussed. I think exactly that, that that historical in accuracy, in this particular case, it's not as interesting as the historical truth, that that's got much more drama in it.

That's much more nuance going on. And so by, by going for the tr. The convention of Hollywood, which is younger leading ladies and, you know, it's fine. The older the guy could be older. It just, yeah, it's, it's hamstrung, hamstrung the drama. Yeah. 

Lily: And then kind of similarly, so Napoleon was known to, despite his like very revolutionary beliefs at the beginning, he like did so much to roll back the rights of women that were, that the revolution brought.

So for example, women's rights are getting divorced by mutual agreement. He. Roll back that, which is interesting given that he divorces Josephine during the film. So, okay, I know that you don't have space for everything, but I just think that actually the risk often with these things is that those sorts of issues get ignored altogether.

Like, it was interesting, there was like, every so often there was a black soldier or a black character in the film. Just like tokenistic, just one person here and there. And I thought, Hmm, I wonder if that is accurate. And I looked into it and it's like absolutely not accurate. Napoleon was incredibly racist, did so much to ensure that slavery was maintained in his colonies, did loads to roll back the rights of black people in France.

And I just think that it's that kind of thing that I think. If you decide to not go into, if you decide to go the other way, it's like you risk kind of whitewashing and us never having any story about when there is a story there and I know that's not Ridley Scott's story, I get that, but like, that's the only thing that I think actually risks happening is that this continued writing out of people from history because we focus just on the myth of a person, um, It's like certain people like Napoleon and, and then don't look for basically more interesting stories.

James: But, but I will say, but, but it being a biopic, I will say that you, you, this, this thing, I think I've been picking up on more and more when I'm watching films these days is point of view is that, um, is that you have got to tell a character, a story from a particular point of view. The biopic of Napoleon.

So we kind of, we're meant to be seeing it through his lens to some degree. Yeah. But I 

Lily: mean, those are all things he did, you know, these are rules that he brought in. So, I mean, yeah, sure. I don't think it's about point of view. It's just that there's not time for everything. And that wasn't the story that they were telling, but I'm just thinking like, if, if we genuinely want to question, like what the, what the danger of, of not engaging a tool with historical accuracy is, I think that's the only thing to like, Contemplate, but having said that, it may not, may not all be lost because as you mentioned, Kubrick did a lot of work to make a film on Napoleon.

James: And the most insane amount of research when, when you look into 

Lily: it. Yeah. Sorry. Yes. And Steven Spielberg is right now working on a TV series of Kubrick's Napoleon. And I will be very interested to see what he does with that because a TV series is actually the correct format for a biopic. I'm thinking like there shouldn't be movie biopics at all.

There should just be like episodic like Napoleon, Napoleon and his family being the Corsican Kardashians or him and Josephine. The, the, the good years, you know, just take a moment of an incredible figure's life and let's see what he's getting up to that will really give us a character study. It's like too much to try and squeeze it all into two and a half 

James: hours.

Well, it's interesting to say that because, um, I was scrolling through iPlayer the other day and I noticed that they had Oppenheimer on iPlayer, but of course not the Christopher Nolan film. It was the BBC 1980s BBC TV drama adaptation of the Oppenheimer story. Piece of light. Lol, let's have a look at this.

And it was fascinating because I was like, Oh, I recognize all these characters and I know what they're doing because I recognize the story. So it's the exact same facts being factually told, but the difference is the storyteller making them. The BBC drama, it was very nice, but it was very linear. Very traditional, we, you know, it's like a typical BBC drama where as Christopher Nolan, it's a Christopher Nolan film attacking a biopic.

So, you know, I, I'm quite happy that we, I have a Christopher Nolan Oppenheimer, just as much as it's quite nice that there's also the BBC drama version that it takes the same ingredients like a chef, but it rustles them up in a 

Lily: different way. Okay. So basically we need someone like. Nolan doing these kinds of biopics, who knows how to distill them in an entertaining way.

Absolutely. 

James: I mean, the thing is, I'm feeling bad because Scott, Ridley Scott is an excellent storyteller, but just in this particular instance, I just feel like it was a bit of a rich brew that needed a bit more focus for me. 

Lily: I went, when I was reading about Ridley Scott, it said that, uh, Blade Runner, that was.

It was kind of panned when it first came out and after the test audiences watched it, he, um, he tagged on a happy ending of, um, I have his confession. I've not seen it. It's footage of the two main characters, like, leaving the city, right? And Kubrick gave him, like, leftovers. over footage from, um, the shining aerial shots to be stitched on the end, which I thought was pretty 

James: cool.

That's exactly it. Ridley Scott needed a wide shot. They're actually leaving in a car. They're leaving the horrible dystopian city we suddenly cut to. They're in a beautiful, like. Road with forests and trees everywhere. And the sun shining the first time in the entire film. But yeah, he needed a wide shot.

Um, and they're in a futuristic car, but they didn't have a wide shot. And so he's like, Oh, I remember at the beginning of the shining, that all those beautiful shots flying over these roads. And so he said, I wonder, I bet Kubrick knowing what he's like, I bet he's got loads and loads of out. Takes. And so he got, he phoned Stanley Kubrick.

He got his phone number and suddenly was like, yeah, I'll send you the rushes out. The only rule I'll give you is you can use whatever you want, but you mustn't use a single frame that I used in the shining, as long as it's not one of the shots from the shining. And so if you look at that NC goods in the shining, the, um, Jack Nicholson's character isn't driving a futuristic science fiction car.

He's driving a yellow bug beetle. So if you watch that ending of blade runner, the wide shot, you can see it's a yellow bug beetle car. It's just very 

Lily: small. I love it. I love it. So 

James: I do love that. They're like filmmakers borrowing footage off each other at that level. 

Lily: And that's probably why Ridley Scott is able to keep his shoot days show short.

Cause he's just like pilfering footage from other directors. From 

James: Stanley Kubrick. 

Lily: Yeah, I think the thing, the thing with Scott's, uh, Ridley Scott's responses to all this criticism. I 

James: mean, I love it. I love 

Lily: it. It's hilarious. I love him being like, get alive. You weren't there. 

James: He's 

Lily: such a fighter. And I'm, I'm into that.

Like for him, good for you. Stick up for what you believe in. But I do think that it's quite hilarious because it basically, he's basically saying that like, this might be historically accurate. You don't know. And I think actually that's not the argument, Huddy. It's like, It doesn't matter. Like, I'm not trying to be historically accurate, but it is a weird thing, right?

Because like, if you're not going to be historically accurate, but actually I think in broad strokes, it is fairly, let's be honest, like they're nitpicking about stuff, but the actual battles did happen. So like, what you want, like, surely that's enough, chill out. But in that case, why not just like, why does it have to be, there's this weird tension, right?

Between I'm obsessed with this true person. But then we also want to do it our own way and don't want to stick to the truth, even if it's more interesting. So 

James: your question is why not just make a film about a fictional historical, you know, set in France, you know, but why are 

Lily: we trying to Yeah, that wasn't very well framed.

Yeah, but exactly. Is that Yeah, why not just make it about a An emperor of post 

James: revolution. Well, I was thinking this when I was watching, when I was watching Napoleon, I was like, why this film? Why is Ridley Scott? And my feeling is that I think the past few years is that, um, it's all about franchises and intellectual properties in filmmaking.

You've got to have a hook to get people in. And so I feel like biopics are currently the thinking directors intellectual property films. Do you want to do a Batman film? Do you want to do a DC Marvel film? Not really. I'm not that kind of director, but do you want to do a film that's got brand recognition, then you do a film about Oppenheim or you do about Napoleon?

Cause at least you've heard the name. And so it's like a marketing push. Yeah. 

Lily: Yeah. I think you, I think you might be right there, but I also think that. These big egotistical directors just want to do their own Napoleon, because they see them as like that, you know. It's not, it's, but I think you're, I think you're right.

I think, I don't know if that's because of Marvel movies, but I think that is true that, of course, like, recognizable figures will of course bring an audience. Yeah, 

James: when you're investing hundreds of millions of dollars, they want to feel like the audience are going to at least know something about the subject to bring them in, some interest 

Lily: in it.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Because realistically, if it had just been a film called The French Emperor, I probably wouldn't have gone 

James: to see it. Le Franche Emperor, sorry. Le Empereur Francais, that sounds fancy. That's like an art film that I would 

Lily: watch. Yeah, yeah. But can I just pause for a minute to talk about, just acknowledge the fact that this is I think we've done four episodes in a row now about new releases because there are so many good new releases at the moment, like, isn't it amazing?

We're kind of out of the tough, tormenting times of superhero movies and into this new daylight, the dawn of action, like great big films that aren't franchises. I'm excited. 

James: I, I am, but, but I just feel like this is more like, um, kind of, I've, I've just jumped out of the Titanic and I've managed to claw my way back to the surface of the water.

I've gasped some air, which is right now, but then the currents are dragging me down because of the suction of the Titanic going down. So I worry that this is a brief moment before we're pulled back down. 

Lily: You're so negative, babe. There's no evidence of that. If you look at the films that are coming out next year.

So many good things. I mean, of course there's always gonna be the odd shit one, but I mean, come on. Like in terms of franchises, it's, we've got good stuff. We've got June two, gladiator two. I'm, if it wasn't for Paul Mezcal, I wouldn't be interested, but I will be seeing that . Yeah, 

James: I'll be seeing it for, I'll be seeing it for the pod.

I'm sure there's something to discuss. 

Lily: Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, there's so many good things coming up. Like I'm so excited just for this week alone, and maybe you're right, maybe it's temporary, but I'm having. I'm, I'm happy. 

James: Maybe I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning. It is an early podcast record, so maybe I'm just ever so slightly, you know.

I just 

Lily: think what we've realized, listeners, is that James and I will always have to take the opposite position on the other person. And I think if I were saying to James, I'm worried about next year, I think there are going to be loads of shit films. You'd be like, what are you talking about? It's good things coming our way.

James: Yeah, let's see how things pan out. I, I hope I am just being a miserable old fart. Yes. I mean, 

Lily: given how, how well Oppenheimer and Barbie did, I think, I mean, yeah, I mean, you're right. Every, I say that, but actually every exciting, big, successful hit movie, the offshoots are always poorer versions. Like that's just how it goes.

But 

James: that's okay. What lessons is Hollywood going to learn from Barbenheimer that we need more films about toys or you know, is it going to be that we should give Filmmakers creative freedom to make risks or is it more films about toys? I 

Lily: think it won't be toys I think it'll be more films about pop feminism, which was my big issue with Barbie Pop feminism, 

James: okay, and is pop feminism a good thing or a bad thing 

Lily: Um, Oh, good question, James.

Ah, 

James: because a bit, because a bit like, um, Napoleon being historically inaccurate, but at least we're talking about it. Is it a similar 

Lily: thing? Bingo. Yeah. James, you know, you, you tell me about feminism, you know better than me. 

James: Let me mansplain feminism to you, Lily. But you're 

Lily: right. You're absolutely right.

Yeah. It's better. I'm glad Barbie exists, but watching it, I thought this feminism is not for me. I do not need America Ferrera. Wanging on about being, I don't know. The intention is good, but the message wasn't for me. Um, and I do 

James: worry. But do you think if, do you think if you were a, perhaps a young girl, you are learning about feminism for the first time, is it like a fun thing to chuck into a film?

Like, like with, 

Lily: to be honest, I, I think it's so different now. I don't think you. I think, I think it's already, I think it's already in the, in the conversation. I might be wrong about that, but I think for the most part, the acknowledgement of, of the importance of, of, of these kinds of issues is kind of already there.

And I just worry about like with Barbie, there was such a fixation on her being like on individualism. And I don't, I don't, I don't really like that kind of capsulist version of feminism of like, we're all, it's all about you being your own person. Like, I, that doesn't scan for me. So I just worry about that.

It's my politics. It doesn't align with the Barbie message, to be honest. Which I didn't get into when we, when we talked about Barbara and I, but I had to. No, 

James: you bloody didn't. This is a good stuff. This is a 

Lily: good stuff, Lily. I felt, I didn't want to be a buzzkill because everyone loved it. Sorry listeners.

So I was like, yeah, yeah, it's great. I did, I did touch on it a bit, but I did, I went light. But yeah, for me, I found it a little bit painful to watch because. That part of it, when like, Barbie's world is so wonderful, she's with all these fab girls, why the fuck would she leave? Because she needs to be her own individual person?

No! Stay with your clan, community is what it's all about, we've got to stick together as the world disintegrates. 

James: Oh, so are you worried, like, this is, so are you worried that essentially, the kind of, the idea of feminism is slightly being co opted by capitalism, and, and, I mean, it has 

Lily: been It has been ever, ever thus, ever thus, so it's not like I'm, but, but I just, yeah, I think that, and it's just like the goal bus boss concept, right, of a few years ago, that kind of ate itself because it started out with good intention, but it came just another marketing tool and yeah, a capitalist tool.

And. That was probably what's going to happen with feminist movies, but you know what? That's okay. That's just inevitable. So I'm not, I suppose I'm not worried about it. I just think that I, I predict that being the way of, the way of women's movies going quote unquote women's movies, gross. 

James: But I, I just think it's more going to be Hot Wheels, the movie, He Man, the movie, Hungry Hippos, the movie.

Yeah, but 

Lily: what's I'm, the thing I'm very excited about, and I think it was reflected a bit in Napoleon. Um, is that sex is back. Sex is back in a big way. I feel like we're slightly blowing our load, James, because of, these are the things we want to talk about in our final episode of the season. What's to come.

But never mind, we can get more into it next. 

James: Let's talk about sex in the final episode. Yeah, tune in for that. 

Lily: Yeah, I will say no more about that now, but But that's what I'm anticipating that I'm 

James: happy about. Do you think we're heading back to the naughty 90s? I 

Lily: hope so. I think so. But we'll talk more about that in a couple of weeks time.

Okay. Yeah. Shall we take a trip to the film pharmacy? 

James: Hell yes.

Lily: Dear Lily and James, Do you have any films where people don't necessarily triumph, but it's okay? I think my dream job isn't working out and I won't get to, like, show them all or have a triumphant montage. Yours, Noss Elwoods. 

James: I love that. I love that because it is interesting, isn't it? The films where they don't succeed in their aims because there are a few.

Now, the first one that comes to my mind with that question, I'm not sure it's what they're looking for because I think what they're asking for is, is a film where they. Don't achieve their aims, but it's still a happy ending or it's still a, it's still a satisfying ending. Whereas the one that comes to mind immediately for me, because I remember watching it thinking, Oh, wow.

I've never, I remember sitting through it and thinking, Oh, I've never quite seen a film like this. Um, Zodiac, the David Fincher film where they're investigating the Zodiac. killings over the seventies and they never find the Zodiac killer. I mean, the whole film is set up like a procedure. Oh, sorry.

Spoilers. Yeah. I mean, it is historical, right? I've got another story. But, but, um, but that, you know, it's all set up the whole film. It works like a. Procedure, like a journalistic investigation, police investigation. And then at some point, there's never a defining moment where they fail to capture him. It just, the film just never stops.

It keeps going and people get older and people stop talking to each other and characters drift away. And like. I'd never seen a film like that, where the central premise of the film, which is essentially who's the Zodiac Killer. We never really get there. You know, we just kind of, you know, you realize that that's kind of what life is like in general is that there might be moments of your life where something becomes very big, but there's never a satisfying end to it.

You just move on to other things. So Zodiac, but I'm not sure if that's going to satisfy you. 

Lily: Yeah, that's interesting. Right. So it seems like the film is about catching the Zodiac Killer and actually it's about something a little more existential. 

James: It's more about obsession and what it does to you, because there's certain characters who can't let it go, and there's other characters who've moved on, and then there's other characters who'd be damaged by it, you 

Lily: know?

Right, yeah, yeah. Oh, well, I think we've I think you've mentioned that film before, and I think it sounds fabulous. I haven't seen it. But I think I need to do some kind of David Fincher deep dive. I've not seen a lot of his work, and he seems to be I mean, Seven's a classic. Oh, yeah, I've seen Seven. I mean, it's weird, it's weird how some films just like, are burnt in your brain, like, I will never forget some of those scenes, and not even the final one, like, other ones.

James: Oh yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's intense. God, 

Lily: yeah. So my offering is Frances Ha starring Greta Gerwig, written by Greta Gerwig and her husband Noah Bombach and directed by Noah Bombach. So very much a couple's movie. That was a couple. But, um, this film is actually, I think, perfect for this film pharmacy because it's a film all about a

and has some ambition, but she's not. Any, she wants to be a dancer, but she's quite shit. And so it's very reassuring watching it. Cause if you have even an minute amount of talent and what you're interested in, you'll feel better. Cause like you can see, there are people trying to make it who are a lot worse, you know?

Um, and it's kind of just about her scrabbling around in life, trying to figure self out when she really is a bit of a lost puppy. And it's, I don't know, it's like very, Captivating to watch and really reassuring. I mean, it's a funny, this is a funny question because I've been watching. It's very, it was very apt for me because I've been rewatching girls recently.

And that's definitely a through line with that show is people continuously trying feeling a bit lost and mostly failing. And for me, that's a real bomb. It's good to see that because that is what life is really like. And, you know, Instagram and whatever social media can make you think otherwise that everyone else is achieving their dreams and so, so capable.

And the reality is we're all a bit lost and fucked up, so Francis Ha is my 

James: answer. Francis Ha, okay, that sounds much more on the mark than mine, but Francis Ha, Zodiac. No, I Two very eclectic 

Lily: selections. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it when, when we choose two very different films. I think they, I think it both hits the mark just in different ways.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. 

Lily: Okay. Well, that's it for another episode of Groovy Movies. Thank you so much for listening. 

James: Absolutely. And if you could leave us a like or a review, it all helps get our podcast out to a wider audience. 

Lily: So next week we'll be back for a Christmas special. So everyone put on your Christmas jumpers and Santa hats for the, for listening to that.

And we'll see you then. See you next 

James: week. Bye bye. 

Lily: Follow us on Instagram at Groovy Movies Pod or email us groovy movies pod@gmail.com. 

James: Groovy movies was produced and edited by Lily Austin Music 

Lily: and Sound by James 

James: Brailsford. Our logo was designed by Abby Joe 

Lily: Sheldon. For references and more information about the films discussed, check out the show notes.