The Video Game Experience (w/ Veronica Zammitto)

Time on task. 

Cart abandonment.

MAU and DAU.

What about..."fun?"

Experiences from fin-tech to mobility use a select, core set of metrics and outcomes. The gaming space does, too, but they also have unique characteristics and opportunities, especially for user researchers.

Veronica Zammitto has been working, thinking, and researching in this space long enough to see its maturity in real time. She spent nearly a decade growing the UX practice at Electronic Arts, one of the largest game studios. Now, she's consulting for the wider industry, helping to level up the ways this fast-moving space can stay user-centered and nimble.

Veronica reflects on the maturity of the gaming industry, where UX fits, and how the wider experience community can learn from the fun, play, and action elements symbolic of games. 

Show Notes:

Overview of Flow Theory, used by Veronica when testing a game's UX

Macadamian's UX Maturity Framework, which helps Veronica benchmark

Veronica's IxDA Keynote is a deeper look into the maturity opportunities facing gaming

New to playtesting? Here's a primer to get you started and going.

Transcript

Veronica Zammitto:
When I think about what's a good player experience, definitely, as a first step, you have to account for usability and controls, and do research on that, and eliminate them because those are going to be the barriers to then enjoy the game. If you're still trying to switch a weapon, maybe because the setting for changing weapons is so obscure that that is you're not enjoying the game anymore.

Karen:
Hi everyone, and welcome to the People Nerds podcast, expanding your human-centered practice with unexpected sources of wisdom. My name is Karen, and I'm joined here by my colleague, Ben.

Ben:
Hi Karen.

Karen:
Hello, Ben.

Ben:
How are you?

Karen:
Great. Super excited for the conversation we're having today.

Ben:
Yeah, it's one right up your alley.

Karen:
Yeah, tell me about it, but first, a little bit of context for our podcast. As many of you may know, we at People Nerds have a newsletter and a blog. This newsletter curates some of the best and brightest in theory and practice around design product and all things UX. Hit the subscribe if you haven't already.

Ben:
Smash it. Smash the subscribe.

Karen:
Smash that subscribe button. However, our community is not just a tactical community as much as our blog focuses on the bits, the bobs, the how-tos of getting your research done. We are also a broad community of thinkers from a huge range of disciplines and diverse perspectives, experiences. And we wanted to honor that here in our podcast and widen the aperture, raise the Zoom lens away from the tactical, and to the broader questions in UX. And we wanted to do that by bringing in folks that you might not necessarily expect to hear from. Folks like artists, activists, curators, policymakers, people who do research, but not necessarily in the way that we might think about it all the time, and trying to find out what wisdom that we can gain from them. And today we are talking video games with Veronica Zammitto. Ben, do you want to tell us a little more about our guest today?

Ben:
I'm very excited to have Veronica on. She has spent over a decade in the industry. She spent nearly a decade growing and scaling the practice at EA first as a UX research manager, then as a senior manager, and then all the way up to, of course, the director of UX. She is someone who has grown from that frontline tactical researcher trying to advocate for the practice all the way up to someone who is controlling budget, vision, and strategy, that seat at the table Veronica had it. And I think from our conversation what stands out even for folks who are not, or maybe especially for folks who are not in the gaming industry, was the focus on enjoyment and delight and fun that was a through line in so much of the reason that she got involved in UX for the gaming industry, and what keeps her in the gaming industry.

Ben:
I think about all the UXRs and the designers and the product folks that we talk to there's always this element of I want them to be delighted, even if they're doing their taxes, or if they're using a project management software. Veronica has such wonderful experience to share and great strategies for how you can start to imbue and inject some of those notions of delight. And one other thing I'll say, Karen, before I'm curious to hear your thoughts from our conversation is I think this is really relevant because we hear the phrase gamification of, so often, whether it is something like a finance app that's trying to coach us to save more. You're like, "Okay, I want to go on a vacation, but I need to save for it." Gamification could be a way to do that, or to gamify someone's multiplication tables. Veronica talks about how the wider UX community can learn about some of those elements that make a good game, some of those delightful moments, but what stood out to you, Karen, as we alluded to you're a gamer, and so what stood out to you in this conversation with Veronica?

Karen:
Yeah, outing me, but no doubt, I definitely play a lot of games as my hobby, and have ever since I was a middle schooler, elementary schooler, watching my big sister playing Mario all the way up until today where I'm hours and hours deep into Elden Ring, my new favorite game. This was a really exciting subject to talk about to hear a little bit more about the inside of the UX community, and how they are focusing their very passionate fan base increasingly in this zone that historically has been primarily a zone of creative vision rather than one of listening to, and taking input from an audience.

Karen:
It was fascinating to hear a little bit about that balance about how to work with creative teams as well as what you said, how to define these more amorphous topics like fun, delight, satisfaction, perhaps the most amorphous of all of them, how to define those and functionalize them to take these really broad ideas that may be coming from a creative team, or coming from a leadership team, and translate them into something functional that you can measure qualitatively or quantitatively. Really interesting stuff, and I think that we should dive straight into it.

Ben:
Let's do it. Here is our conversation with Veronica Zammitto.

Karen:
Hello. We are here with Veronica. Welcome Veronica. We're so excited to have you on our podcast.

Veronica Zammitto:
Thank you so much, Karen and Ben. It is an honor to be here.

Ben:
Oh, an honor. We'll see at the end if that still holds up, but we're so excited that you're here. We're really excited to learn more about this industry and the things you're doing in it.

Karen:
That's right. So that's actually exactly what we wanted to start with for people who may be listening and for our sakes, too, who might not know too much about what UX looks like within the games industry, could you start us off by giving a broad description in so much as you can of what it actually looks like to do UX and games if that is summarizable at all?

Veronica Zammitto:
Yeah, for sure. First of all, it's fun because something that is really interesting is about the products that you work on. And for video games it is part of entertainment. It can also sometimes be more on the gamification, learning. It can be, also, something that makes you feel happy. It has a broad spectrum of how games are embraced by different people, but ultimately the bottom line, playing video games is an enjoyable activity that people seek out to do.

Veronica Zammitto:
So that, actually, it will come down very handy that I wanted to engage with these products as an opt in choice that people do compared to other products that might be more from the productivity point of view. Also, if you look at the landscape of different researchers that work in the game industry people who are very passionate about the games they are gamers themselves. It's an area that they has been very interesting for most of their lives. And, finally, they can find a space, or an industry where they can apply all those skill sets in it. So, definitely, fun times, definitely, a lot of passion by everyone involved.

Veronica Zammitto:
And once you start looking into the product then it's more about good research is good research. Good practices in any industry will be transferable into the game industry. So in that sense, that would be more homogeneous about the UX research practice in the game industry compared to other industries. There will be, specifically, into looking to players' needs, and also having to do a compromise with the creative vision that comes from the game designers.

Ben:
Certainly anyone using a product or service would maybe want to have an enjoyable time using it. And I think we can agree that gamers, and that fandom orients to, relates to those experiences on a ratcheted up-level for lots of good ways what, specifically in the UX realm, Veronica, would you say are one of the unique challenges, or nuances of I'm using air quotes here, doing UX for video games? Is it the level of creativity? Is it because there's a lot of technical balance between designers and engineers making? What from your view are some of the unique opportunities, or even challenges for doing UX in the game space?

Karen:
Well, there are quite a few that we could talk about from those challenges. I'm going to take it up from which I mentioned that, and I said compromised about those user needs and that creative vision. So in that sense, you have to really work closely with different stakeholders, which would also be your collaborators in terms of creating this specific product. I'm bringing that voice of the player advocating for them in a way that actually enhance where the creativity is meant to go, how to elevate that component. I think that that's going to be quite an interesting aspect for something that is being shaped from a very creative point of view and integrating those different points. So from that process point of view of developing products that could move into different directions, trying to acknowledge those players' expectations, players, also, again, not only the research, but the players that are also very passionate people in telling them very vocal about it, and what they like and what they don't like.

Karen:
So finding that compromise and the different points is going to be sometimes a challenge trying to put all those together, find that common ground, making sure there's a clear direction. There can be some nuances on that path, but converging into trying to make that best product ever. And then one of the biggest challenges is how to know what is the satisfying game? Are people really having that fun experience? Are they enjoying the game? And that is a very challenging concept to deconstruct, have a common vocabulary to even talk about it, and go with imagining how to measure that. So that one has its own aspects of how to overcome measuring something so intangible like playing a game.

Ben:
I think about NPS, like, I don't think video games have, I mean, they might, maybe a gaming studio would ask how likely are you to recommend this studio to a friend, but Karen and I spend a lot of time talking with enterprise software developers and they have a bunch of metrics, time on task, number of accounts created, other folks added accounts, certain activities within that service. I'm so interested to hear about what are some of the metrics that you have experienced? Is it fun level zero to 10? Is it how many games are launched? And doubtless that this changes by the kind of game like maybe sessions started, but can you talk about some of those big time drivers that UX in the games world hang onto, or look to?

Veronica Zammitto:
Yeah, absolutely, and that is a never-ending quest.

Ben:
No pun intended.

Veronica Zammitto:
Yes. It is something that we're trying to identify what's the value? Even for UX in general, it's sometime very challenging to translate. What's the impact of UX? What's the ROI of that? And then would you get even to something as you move away from things like usability, time on task, as you were mentioning as an example, which is a great one for other type of products, but mainly for games those don't translate very well. So it's a multifaceted component in any case of where are those KPIs that we can keep track of. And it also has to speak to where the company is putting the effort, or where we want to go. Also, KPIs are as good as, actually, the right signs to make sure they're moving into the right direction.

Karen:
But you have to know the direction that you're trying to move before you know which metrics to be looking at.

Veronica Zammitto:
Exactly, so what's important? What should we really be measuring? And I think that we all should be allowing ourself to ask those questions. Sure, maybe you can go with some of the shelf KPIs out there. Maybe a common KPI that different game companies uses is how many days a person plays the game. So if this person has played in their lifetime two days, 10 days, 20 days, a year, so that could be a proxy for engagement, like it's someone who comes back to the game and within 24 hours picks up the controller, or opens the game app on their phone and they engage with that game. So that one could be a good one if, again, you want to try that proxy of are people engaging with the game?

Veronica Zammitto:
There are others that sure we could through surveys go and measure and ask them how much fun did you have? And have that as, again, as a thermometer of how well they are doing. It is going to be something harder to then action on, or translate about what was fun about it, or why should we do it? And then you start getting into more nuances in how this translates to the game. So they could be different frameworks that you can use.

Veronica Zammitto:
I'm sure in the past, also, some of them know what is a good player experience, and you can have good frameworks. You can leverage theories like the self-determination theory that talks about autonomy, competence, relatedness. You can craft items to then measure that and see how those basics human needs are being satisfied by the game, which is in a very good holistic manner, but then you have to see that it is a myriad of games out there, and some games might have more features in one aspect, and maybe less on others such as to give an example.

Veronica Zammitto:
If I want to measure player satisfaction on a basic human need of autonomy in the sense that I make my own choices and I craft it, and then I play a game that is mostly very linear, let's say uncharted. It has amazing narrative, but maybe my choices are more limited from that point of view, but it excels at that narrative aesthetics aspect and maybe feels really good into the movement and the competence that I do. Whereas, another game that might be more open world than my autonomy is humongous, but maybe I get overwhelmed with that. So, again, these good overall frameworks that you can use, and then you do still have to do the translation of how those help the game to identify that it's really bringing a good time to the players.

Karen:
I am so fascinated by this idea of trying to use frameworks to translate into what you say basic human needs. I'm thinking about product work I've done on maybe to Ben's point more productivity focused stuff and functional things that there's very this, does this product do what it is intended to do with ease and efficiency metric? There's a very obvious goal that most people are trying to fulfill, but in this more amorphous world of fun it's really interesting to hear that maybe some of what that translates to is much more serious and foundational of what are the basic human desires that I'm able to fulfill through this digital product? I'm almost wondering for myself, is there wisdom that other more goal-oriented tools can be taking from this because maybe in a roundabout way, even if I'm fulfilling a productive function that in and of itself is fulfilling some basic human need that we could be looking at?

Ben:
I'm thinking about when UXRs are sharing and we can talk about this a bit more, Veronica, about that balance between user feedback and the teams that ultimately make the decisions, and the UXR being that conduit. I could hear a product manager for a project management tool say, "Well, that's not what the tool is designed for, or we want the tool to eventually do that." How does that look to what Karen is saying where the players aren't having fun with this thing that you've built? And how mushy or firm or predetermined that experience is has got to be a really interesting nuance for the gaming space.

Ben:
And so I'm wondering if we could quickly add to that, nothing like an add to question. We recently published a piece on the People Nerds blog about a group interview being a really good method for tackling collaborative, or group oriented gameplay, and how the game space was really a nice fit for this particular method that sometimes doesn't get the due that it deserves a group interview. Are there kinds of methods that to Karen's point you're unpacking frameworks, and to mine, wherein, stakeholders might not know what they want and need. Do you as a UXR lean on particular methods more as a gaming, or a games-based UXR than others?

Veronica Zammitto:
There have been more opportunities lately in terms of doing more generative research, more exploratory research, where there could be potential as you're surveying where players are, what are their needs, how they imagine it from doing work on segmentation, so you know exactly who those people are you could run if your game is already live, let's say like a diary study and really dig into the nuances of what are people enjoying. I think that sometimes we rely a lot on evaluative methods to say, "Okay, are they satisfied? Are they reducing their time on task? Are they completing the checklist?" But then we lose the nuances of what goes through that journey what are those blockers, friction points? What are those peaks and valleys? So within it you can explore those.

Veronica Zammitto:
I remember my time at EA, we did an entire study on NHL and it was over the course of a week. And then at the end there would be an interview with those players who participated in the study. And at the end we were even asking them sometimes a certain feature how they would imagine it, how that happened? And even grab a pen and paper and just draw it and share it with us. So it was a little bit even of co-creation in that sense that then we could aggregate, generate trends, insights, that were emerging from that and bring that back to the development team and have a discussion about it. So it doesn't mean that this is the recommended implementation, but it's a way to, again, humanize the players, bring their very explicit aspects of where their desires are. It doesn't mean that you need to press this button, or now the puck needs to go that other way, but identifying and contextualizing where that problem statement is.

Veronica Zammitto:
I think that, again, those are some methods that, again, could be applied in different industries and, hopefully, your audience is already translating to their products, but also how it happens in the game industry, and some of those challenges that we go through. Having that moment to moment is also something very, again, challenging and unique. We're going to say, "Play the game for half an hour." And then at the end "Was it good? Did you fulfill what you wanted to do?"

Ben:
Sure. "Do you feel like a better person now?" Like, "Well, I lost in my five NHL games that I played, so, no, I stink."

Veronica Zammitto:
Again, it's all those journeys, so you're playing a role-playing game, and then you're going through the path and encountering different enemies and then you level up. And I think that bringing those aspects of, again, crafting that experience, putting that in a certain path is going to be really, really important. So trying to strangulate as much that's also prime for the game industry and having those play testing sessions where people are literally just playing the game while being recorded on their game footage, so videos could be analyzed, or doing the direct observation, then asking surveys at certain intervals. That, again, those are all the different points that we're trying to use to have that moment to moment, and then see those overall trends.

Karen:
I'm curious, just as a quick follow-up there, I'm thinking about that classic evaluative talk along style of testing where you look over the shoulder and try to accomplish this task, and walk us through what you're thinking about and how you're doing it, but I know that for games, a really big goal here is immersion. That's a word that I hear thrown around a lot in terms of what many games are trying to accomplish. It seems like there might be a tension there. Is that something that you just avoid entirely, or is that something that you sacrifice a sense of immersion for hearing that live feed? I'm curious about how you tackle that?

Veronica Zammitto:
You're absolutely right. It's a compromise, so the good old think aloud and extremely powerful method, great technique, really highly contextualized, a lot of the moment to movement that we were just talking about, but it does come to that cost of increasing the cognitive load of taking you away of the immersion of what you're doing. And in this case, you're playing a game and it's all about immersion. It's now getting into that world. The researchers should make that call of what's the research question what we're trying to understand, and is this the appropriate method? It's a quick rule of thumb. If it's something more about usability, comprehension, maybe controls, something more in that realm, think aloud could be great. It could be fantastic. Yes, I understand where to go to see my inventory. Here is how I put it in my backpack. Here is how I'm smashing the zombie in front of me.

Veronica Zammitto:
Great, but then if you're trying to answer questions that are more related to getting into the flow are you really immersed into that world? Very rich games like Redemption, that beautiful masterpiece of immersing in that world. And if I'm asking the player to think aloud where do they go I'm just taking them away of that immersion. So in that case, if I'm trying to, again, see that sense of satisfaction, fun, immersion, flow, that method would hinder those results. It will be compromised then using those case scenarios.

Ben:
I know that you can't speak for the entire industry, and yet I'm hoping you can maybe tip the hand a bit. You've not only worked in the industry, you're advising and consulting in the industry. You studied in this industry as part of your graduate training. What is your sense on the maturity level? And I use that UX maturity, granted folks have different frameworks, but it's certainly a fast-paced industry. It's one that has seen dramatic growth in the ways and the spaces, wherein, fans and communities of folks are gravitating towards studios, and I think the accessibility of games, there are more and more kinds of games. What's your temperature, or your read on the maturity level of games and the UX, the experience, the design thinking around those games?

Veronica Zammitto:
I would say that things have been getting better and better in the game industry. I think if you had asked me this question 10, 15 years ago, it would have been different. Maybe we were also not talking that much about UX maturity a while ago. Again, a decade ago I could see the rest of the tech industry really evolving quick, and super embracing UX, and talking about maturity, and talking about their processes and their best practices. I felt at the time the game industry was lagging behind on that more user-centered design mindset, but I would say that in the last five years or so, there has been more embrace of thinking about players first, and trying to have that as part of the culture for the company.

Veronica Zammitto:
You'll see many companies doing just logins, you can see EA, Riot, they have been putting the player at the forefront, which as pillars for a company that's amazing. And as a UX-er in the industry, those are the phrases, pillars that I want to see because it ultimately talks about UX in general, therefore, it's bringing that UX maturity up. I think that there is still, of course, more work to be done, but I think that there are a bajillion different models of UX material out there, but I think that they are all applicable. Again, regardless of the industry I think that ultimately goes more in terms of do you have established processes? Do you have staff that are responsible for these things to happen? Do the staff have the resources that they need to accomplish those tasks?

Veronica Zammitto:
And the last one big piece for me on UX maturity is also the culture. I think that's where a lot of transformation has been happening and it's going to be even more powerful when it comes from those two entries top-down and bottom-up that is not just the UX designer, or the UX researcher saying, "Oh, we need more insight. We need to understand it." That's great that grassroots movements are extremely powerful and people should be elevating that and advocating for that, but it's also incredibly powerful to have those champions at the top of the company saying, "We need this to make better products." We can strategize better if we know who our audience is and are we providing them the games that they want? And when those two get combined, that's where the true transformation in the company can happen.

Karen:
It is a really, I don't know if you call it a saturated market, it's a very busy market. There's a lot of games for people to choose from, and it's cumulative that if people are interested in going back and playing old games as well as the new releases, there are tens of thousands of hours of content at this point that you could theoretically reach to and download at the touch of a button on your console, or PC. On the other hand, I know that for games that I love, I am incredibly loyal to those brands and will always give a new game a fair shake, give a new game a chance even if I didn't love the previous one, or something. And so I'm curious, Veronica, is there a sense of audience loyalty here that you can count on, or is it really like if a product isn't delivering immediately, you can expect huge drop off in sales, or engagement?

Veronica Zammitto:
You're absolutely right, Karen, that it is an extremely competitive market.

Karen:
That's the word I was looking for.

Veronica Zammitto:
Yes.

Ben:
Saturated was good.

Veronica Zammitto:
Yeah. Absolutely. It is quite quintessential to make sure that the game is the best possible game out there. It also goes hand to hand with what we were just talking in terms that players opt in to play. Nobody's twisting your arm to play another round in that shooter game. When people don't enjoy, like, the tolerance right now is extremely low, and in a mobile game if within the first 30 seconds, one minute, people are not happy with it they just put it down, delete it, and off I go to the next of 8,000 billion games out there. So really helping to make that smooth path into the game first-time user experience is such an important aspect that should be a number one priority in any game product like that onboarding of guiding people into this is the game. And here are all the things that you need. And having also a good time from there.

Veronica Zammitto:
It's not just about explaining click this button. This is the goal, but actually you log into the game and then you should have the broader experience possible, and quickly get you on the rails of what the game is providing. Yes, too oversaturated. Yes, that there are a lot of competitors for any game out there, and all type of consumers including player's level of tolerance have decreased through the years. And this is also applicable to games, but also to even productivity software as well.

Ben:
Oh, sure. Does it make it easier to advocate for UX, though? Like going in when you're advising a company they have to know that attention is minuscule, that if they're not hooking them right away. So I guess to add on to Karen's question about folks thinking about loyalty, does that make your work in gamer center design and thinking easier because you're able to say, "Hey, hey, hey, let's pause development for just two weeks for me to do some early analysis." Or is it more of the ship and learn? We're going to ship the game and then iterate it at another version.

Veronica Zammitto:
I like how you're phrasing it. I think that's something else that has been changing in the game industry through the years that games have become more of a live service. And the concept of here is the boxed game. We shipped the product and see ya. It doesn't exist anymore. Now every single game out there, we have ongoing releases and updates and support. Actually, many times it's like even another face of production starts once the game gets released. So it is a constant ongoing support from the game developer to the players. That would be a major transformation of you have to support once it gets launched. A little bit of that loyalty is there.

Veronica Zammitto:
And for those games that do have iterative titles, yes, they say they are like communities. And even the role of a person responsible for the community in the game industry has also become a common role at many places. And it's about, again, supporting them, having to harness and gather all the live information that they put out there. So they're amazing partners, too, and a UX researcher as well. So definitely those different disciplines and arms within an organization that you want to partner. You have analytics, you have community, you have consumer insights, you have research, and put all of those together to really have that good 360 understanding of where is the pulse of the players?

Ben:
Now it's time for our weekly scout sound off where we use dscout Express, a quick turn qualitative survey tool to deliver thoughts and opinions straight from the brains of our participants to your ears. Karen, what are we looking at this week?

Karen:
Well, today, of course, we're talking about video games. So we were reaching out to the gamers of our scout pool. I launched an express mission to try and find 100 scouts who play video games at least six hours per week. We found that, no problem. Within 24 hours, we had 100 entries from people sounding off about their favorite games, their favorite genres, and most interestingly what they think make games fun. As we've heard from Veronica, this is a tricky topic to nail down. So I thought I'd ask about it directly. And one of the biggest things we heard about was challenge and accomplishment. So without further ado, here are some of our best and brightest scouts telling us about what challenge in video games means for them and why they like it so much. Take it away scouts.

Speaker 4:
I like games that let me feel like I've accomplished something.

Speaker 5:
If it's really, really easy, I feel like a monkey could do it I'm not going to find any enjoyment in it, but it can't be too challenging that makes me feel like I'm never going to get this, and why should I try?

Speaker 6:
If I have to keep dying and starting over, I'm just going to quit because it's not fun for me.

Speaker 5:
So it has to be in that middle zone where somewhat challenging if I play it just long enough, I can figure it out and do it.

Speaker 7:
As you play, you have more and more skills, which is an incentive to keep going.

Speaker 8:
Those games are the best because it just brings out your inner competitiveness and you just want to do better at the game. And the better you are at it, the more pride you get from it, and you just feel better in general.

Speaker 9:
It's like compacting all of your life into one. You get to basically live out a life, explore things, do things, evolve, grow, all in a shorter period of time.

Karen:
And that's our scout sound off for this week. If you're interested in running quick express missions like this one, diary studies, or moderated one-on-one interviews, come and check out our platform at dscout.com. And now back to our conversation with Veronica.

Ben:
And we're back with Veronica Zammitto. Karen, you had a question about the balance between the emotions that a games UX-er might want to elicit, and some of the difficulty that might be stopping someone, or keeping someone from playing a game?

Karen:
Yeah, absolutely. Veronica, we want to use the second half of this podcast to dig in a little bit more on places that we might be able to gain wisdom from you for people who are working in other industries in UX. And one of the things that really caught my attention that you said earlier was this idea that people are quick to jump not just in games, but perhaps as every tech market becomes more competitive, that people are going to be more likely to drop your product if they're having a frustrating time, or they're not jiving with it.

Karen:
My curiosity for you is how does that gel with the idea that some games at least are supposed to be hard, that you're supposed to be doing something that is challenging, and maybe there's a satisfaction that comes out of that challenging experience? I know most other people probably aren't trying to make their products hard, but people like financial services, banking, health care, a lot of these things involve emotions that are difficult, or involve things that are challenging to do. And so I was curious to hear how do you in the games world balance, actually, trying to cultivate something difficult, or challenging in some way while not making people jump ship in frustration, basically?

Veronica Zammitto:
Absolutely. And that is also one of the key questions and key concepts in the game industry about having that sweet spot of challenging, but not too challenging. One typical framework that I've used for this is leveraging Csikszentmihalyi's concept of flow, which coming from psychology that is a theory that imagine a two axis frame. And in the one axis, you have skill level, and your skill level might be from low to high. And then on the other axis, you have that difficulty. Ultimately, what you want to do is to match that level of skill with the level of difficulty that you're presented to the player.

Veronica Zammitto:
So think about your sessions time to play a role-playing game. Let's say World of Warcraft, and your sesh is starting, you don't know much about what to do. You're just going and smacking little enemies across the place. And maybe you're still not good about maybe you get an arrow and a bow, but you're no good at that aiming. So maybe your skill level for fighting is still quite low. Therefore, the game should present you with enemies that are a little bit silly. They are not very smart. They are starting to smack you in the head and they don't move too fast. You can achieve that. And then as you get better, because maybe you'll play more of the game, then you're really good with the aiming and now you can shoot very far. So maybe now the game should be bringing to you enemies that are faster. They are more challenging to actually try to capture.

Veronica Zammitto:
And you can translate that to many other actions that players have to do in a game with what the game is providing. And the whole idea is that as long as you are matching those same levels, you get into a channel called flow and that state of flow where the typical understanding of flow that time passes by, and you don't notice it that you're very immersed, so when those two, again, skills and difficulty are at the right level you get into that flow. If you're very skillful and the game does not provide you with enough challenge, you're going to get bored. And if you are low in your skill, and it's very challenging, you're going to get anxious and negative feelings. So that's why it's very important to stay within that flow channel component.

Veronica Zammitto:
And that is what every single game will try to do. And not even talking about the enemies and the known player characters, even in an online world when you go and play with real players out there, games have also developed algorithms to match you with people with your certain level. So many servers get popular in online games trying to match people who are same level, same KPIs, and those ratios to make sure that people feel fair against who they are against up, and that, again, they have the right skill and that level of challenge.

Karen:
I'm thinking the experience of one thing that it's not a one to one analog, but this idea of very user-friendly versus very customizable that you want to hit a moment where it's give somebody as much power as possible, as much autonomy as possible over their experience, but if you throw them immediately into a dashboard that has 200 different toggles and switches that you can ultimately customize your experience, or do these very difficult, or challenging tasks can be enough there's that sense of it's a difficulty spike, so to speak, a sense of overwhelm that might cause for somebody to jump?

Veronica Zammitto:
Yeah, no, totally. Actually, I've been trying some project management tool to keep my work tidy up and it's all about that personalization of my software can do anything. You just have to create your own dashboard. And it's like, "Okay." It will be too overwhelming.

Karen:
Three days later.

Veronica Zammitto:
Yes, what do I want? Help me, lead me on that, or once you have it set up, you're saying like, "Okay, I don't want to keep doing this task. By now, I can do it super easily, but help me with some automation, help me with suggestions, help me be an extension of my brain, or can that skill set that I already have I don't want to keep flexing that little muscle." Like, "Hey, productivity software, take that off my plate so I can focus on the next level of skills that I want to develop."

Karen:
That's also making me think about the concept of immersion that you mentioned earlier, that it seems like maybe there's a connection here to flow. Thinking about my own gaming experience, a fun challenge is how do I kill the zombie that's coming up to me, but a not fun challenge is where in the world is this option in my menu? I'm trying to equip an item and I cannot, for the life of me find it. That's not the challenge. That feels like friction, not flow, and so it makes me think about how usability feels really key to this idea of flow because the last thing you would want is somebody to be fighting the game system rather than the enemies in the game.

Veronica Zammitto:
Exactly. You're absolutely right. Challenge and difficulty should not come from cumbersome controls. That's not the way of doing the difficulty. Obscuring the UI, obscuring the controls, that's the wrong way of having difficulty. That's the bad one. When we're talking about challenge it's more about trying to excel at that task by still having the right tools. Based on the joke, also, the easiest game would be just press the button and you won. That's too simple and that's not a game.

Karen:
Right.

Veronica Zammitto:
Yes, and having cumbersome controls, it is not a way to try to craft difficulty. When I think about what's a good player experience, definitely as a first step, you have to account for usability and controls and do research on that and eliminate them because those are going to be the barriers to then enjoy the game. If you're still trying to switch a weapon maybe because the setting for changing weapons is so obscure that you're not enjoying the game anymore. It's not about do I want to run? Do I want to hide? Do I want to jump and double flip and get them from the back? That should be the kind of questions as a gamer that you want to have. It's more about using the whole arsenal of skills and weapons, not just that quick switch.

Karen:
Right.

Veronica Zammitto:
So removing all friction points through usability then you have the whole embrace of the experience that the game is meant to be.

Karen:
So it's almost like a baseline first step to do that usability.

Veronica Zammitto:
Right. For example, if we were doing a play test, and I know that there's still usability issues, I know that's going to hinder that experience. And as we go through iterations, and, again, getting polished, definitely, always do an emphasis of removing those usability problems to then really have that really good assessment of, again, is the game, air quotes, fun? Is the experience satisfying?

Ben:
We began our conversation with your describing a bit of the fast pace that the games industry moves still and how in the tech world widely there was this focus on this resourcing put toward human-centered design, design thinking, and that gaming is coming around to it. You, as a games UXR probably have developed some muscles that maybe non-games UXRs don't even think about. When you, though, Veronica, meet up with either at a conference, or out in the world of UXR community, bump into someone who isn't in the games space, what is something that you recognize, or upon reflection that you've learned, or that is really a strength of someone working in the games UX space, specifically, that you think the wider UX world could get better about, or could be more top of mind that really is at the top of your mind as a games UX researcher?

Veronica Zammitto:
It's all about are people having a good time? I think that sometimes we focus a lot on that efficiency, or that checklist, or are they doing what they are supposed to do? Which, again, very important, but even if you notice productivity software that have gone above and beyond are trying to have that more holistic view of engaging with those core needs. Thinking out loud with you now it's like, oh, Slack can really excel about that connecting people. Sure, it started as a communication need, but the way that they surface finding people having the right channels, it was honing in something more foundational into even how as human beings we like to connect to each other.

Veronica Zammitto:
It was also considering aspects of aesthetics. And you will see in many, also, products and apps that they start introducing those delighters, those animations, like UX motion also becoming a role. Again, years ago, the tech was not there, but nowadays, of course, you want to have someone maybe say UI motion specialist that can make those little delightful things such as on your phone you scroll down and you hit bottom and it has a little message, or a little rainbow saying, "Oh, you achieved. Clear out. Everything is clear." Like a little celebration, motion icon, or this other app like Wealthsimple that it has a little coin that you can actually flip. It does nothing. It's just those little delighter aspects.

Veronica Zammitto:
And, again, that it speaks about more core, basic aspects of how as humans we like to engage, what are those core buttons that we can get pressed and have satisfaction out of that? And I think that's what other productivity software are starting to pick up is, yes, what they need to achieve to do the task, but people also want to have fun and have to have a good time while doing it.

Ben:
I'm reminded of just how many different sectors, whether it's as Karen was mentioning earlier, fintech, all the way to grocery delivery is trying to, I'm using air quotes here, gamify their experience, whether that's to coach someone toward a pro-social behavior like to save, let's gamify this goal that you're saving for, we'll put a coin, or some noise. That's all to my eyes and ears straight out of video game design and motion graphics and visual arts. That's such a great point that the wider UX community should be thinking about. It's not satisfaction is too sterile, but enjoyment, fun, delight. That's what so many UXRs are striving for when they're conducting their work. Karen, I don't know if you have something to add.

Karen:
No, totally agree. And I do think that we spend a vast majority of our time concentrating on questions like function, efficiency, can you easily achieve the goals that you want to achieve, but I have been seeing as well motion towards what are truly delightful moments with this app and how can we guide people towards those, or have people engage with them? I certainly think that many places could be orienting even more towards that, and orienting towards it with the sophistication that the games industry is really bringing for it.

Veronica Zammitto:
I think that's the advantage that the game industry has that we were starting from that point of view, we were starting from how to give them a good time. Many times people have endured horrible, horrible, inefficient menus, for instance, to get into the game. So I think that's the upper hand of how, at least from the game industry, we think about the users, it's about players, and what they like, what they need, what are those core aspects? And I'm bringing more human aspects like aesthetics, narrative.

Veronica Zammitto:
We love storytelling and having those components in some way, shape, or form in the game it helps. Even in Candy Crush, it has its own little storytelling, and it's about matching three items of the same color, that's it, but you still have a journey from a narrative point of view. I hope that other productivity product software out there start integrating that and really bringing the aesthetics. What's your journey? What are you trying to achieve? And bring all that together that usability and efficiency. Yes, they're one corner store, but there is so much more that can bring that product to the next level.

Ben:
Well, I hope if the folks managing and thinking about various CRMs and enterprise software, I want the next time I open up my marketing tool, or my customer relation, I want it to look like Candy Crush. So I think that's a perfect way to end it. Veronica Zammitto, thank you so very much for some time. It's been great learning a little bit more about the games industry and your work in it. Thank you again.

Veronica Zammitto:
Thank you so much. It was a great conversation and thank you so much for having me here.

Karen:
All right. That was our conversation for this week with Veronica Zammitto. If you want to learn more about Veronica, or about UX and video games, or about how to reach the next level of UX maturity in your organization, you can find Veronica on LinkedIn, or Twitter, or at her website, veronicazammitto.com. And we'll include all of that information in the description of this podcast.

Ben:
And please subscribe to be notified of our latest episode and review the show because we would love to know what you think. Be sure to also check out our full library of human-centered resources, including how-tos and breakdowns on peoplenerds.com. We are, of course, across all social media. We'll drop our handles in the description below.

Karen:
All right. Thanks everyone so much for joining us again this week. And, well, see you next time nerds.