Join the conversation with Reverend Dr. Joel Okamoto, as he sheds light on the profound depths of confessional Lutheranism, offering a fresh perspective on what it means to declare "Jesus is Lord" in today's complex world. As we navigate the rich traditions and beliefs that underpin Christian identity, Dr. Okamoto challenges us to consider the living confession of our faith, exploring its manifestations in doctrines such as the Trinity and justification by faith. Our engaging dialogue reveals the common threads that unite varying denominations under the banner of Christianity and invites listeners to reflect on the authenticity of their own spiritual journey.
Embark on a theological exploration spanning from the dawn of creation to the anticipated return of Christ, delving into the significance of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. In this episode, we dissect the implications of the grand narrative of Christianity for the church as a community of believers, examining how Lutheran confessional views intersect with ecumenical conversations. As we address the integral role of sacraments in reinforcing Christian identity, we reveal how confessionalism cultivates a shared faith rich with diverse expressions, emphasizing the enduring relevance of practices that reinforce both faith and community.
As we steer through the tumultuous realm of politics and social change, Dr. Okamoto offers invaluable insights into the Christian's role amidst the power struggles and ideologies of our time. We probe the intersection of faith and civic duty, discussing how baptism and confession serve as declarations of allegiance and the importance of serving our neighbors through humble, Spirit-led action. The art of dialogue, inspired by Rappaport's rules, also takes center stage as we learn to approach discussions with the openness and curiosity exemplified by Jesus himself, transforming our interactions into opportunities for mutual understanding and growth.
Visit uniteleadership.org
Join the conversation with Reverend Dr. Joel Okamoto, as he sheds light on the profound depths of confessional Lutheranism, offering a fresh perspective on what it means to declare "Jesus is Lord" in today's complex world. As we navigate the rich traditions and beliefs that underpin Christian identity, Dr. Okamoto challenges us to consider the living confession of our faith, exploring its manifestations in doctrines such as the Trinity and justification by faith. Our engaging dialogue reveals the common threads that unite varying denominations under the banner of Christianity and invites listeners to reflect on the authenticity of their own spiritual journey.
Embark on a theological exploration spanning from the dawn of creation to the anticipated return of Christ, delving into the significance of Jesus's life, death, and resurrection. In this episode, we dissect the implications of the grand narrative of Christianity for the church as a community of believers, examining how Lutheran confessional views intersect with ecumenical conversations. As we address the integral role of sacraments in reinforcing Christian identity, we reveal how confessionalism cultivates a shared faith rich with diverse expressions, emphasizing the enduring relevance of practices that reinforce both faith and community.
As we steer through the tumultuous realm of politics and social change, Dr. Okamoto offers invaluable insights into the Christian's role amidst the power struggles and ideologies of our time. We probe the intersection of faith and civic duty, discussing how baptism and confession serve as declarations of allegiance and the importance of serving our neighbors through humble, Spirit-led action. The art of dialogue, inspired by Rappaport's rules, also takes center stage as we learn to approach discussions with the openness and curiosity exemplified by Jesus himself, transforming our interactions into opportunities for mutual understanding and growth.
Visit uniteleadership.org
Today's episode is with Reverend Dr Joel Okamoto, over 25-year professor in systematic theology at Concordia Seminary in St Louis. He occupies he's actually the chair, the Waldemeier Mary Griesbach, I hope I'm saying that right chair in systematic theology and he chairs the whole department, as is whole department as is. So you are going to have a fantastic time listening in today as Dr Okamoto shares a little bit about politics and the role of the church. We talk about confessional Lutheranism centered in the Jesus is Lord statement, kind of the primary creedal confession, and Dr Okamoto was the first professor that I in my mind's eye remember kind of disrupting my theologian of glory and centering me and us as theologians of the cross based in scripture and also the Lutheran confession. So you're going to have a lot of fun today. Jack, is there one thing about the conversation today that you're just like whoa, this just rocked my world, anything?
Speaker 2:The topic of politics and how a Christian should think about themselves like, place themselves in the fact that, like we do have, like this is the reality of our existence. Politics is a thing we have to navigate through that. How do we think through that?
Speaker 1:Amen. So buckle up, enjoy this conversation with Dr Joel Okamoto.
Speaker 3:This is Lee Time.
Speaker 1:Dr Joel Okamoto, what a joy to be with you today. Tell us about your recent Concordia Journal article on the early church's primal creedal confession that Jesus is Lord yes, uh.
Speaker 4:Well, thanks, tim and uh Jack. Yeah, the article that came out recently from accordion Journal uh tried to explain what, well you know, in technical Lutheran circles is called confessionalism, but, uh, it's easy to see that not everybody knows or agrees about what they mean by it. Uh, and, but it's a useful. The label might not be useful, but the concept really is. I want to try to make sense of it, uh, and so what I, what I would call confessionalism is a way of understanding who a Christian is, who Christians are and what does it mean for them to live in the world in terms of a confession of faith, not in terms of, say, an institution that'd be like Roman Catholicism, not necessarily in terms of liturgy it doesn't exclude those but rather it focuses on confession of faith, and that's because believers naturally confess. If you are devoted to something, love, something, rely on someone, you make it known, you know, and so you can see in the New Testament confessing Jesus as Lord, as the Christ, as the Savior, as the Son of God. Those things came out readily, and then you can see in the history of the church asking someone to be baptized and someone's going to become a Christian. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty? Yeah. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord? You bet Now, christian. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty? Yeah. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord? You bet now. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? You know the resurrection of the body, the life everlasting? I certainly do. Can I be baptized now? Yes, uh, it just comes naturally. And that, uh.
Speaker 4:Then, when it came to the Reformation, they recognized that well one. They had to make a confession. They had to say here's how things are, here's who we are, here's how we live. That's how the Augsburg Confession gets its name. It's a confession in that way, and that became then a way by which people who call themselves Lutheran do this, but other groups do as well. And it was just exploring that. What do we mean by having a confession? There are ideas like confessional subscription that sometimes scare people off, but once you realize this, it makes sense. What does it mean to be confessional today? And it's not so much about the label, but there's an idea behind it which actually makes a lot of sense, which is helpful in, especially in a situation like contemporary United States, where traditional identities and those kinds of things, institutions you know, not so important. But is Lutheran just another you know, another denomination or something of that? No, it's certainly something more than that, and even though Lutheran label is not the point, Jesus is, and so let's attempt to explore that.
Speaker 2:Joel, just to follow up on that. So you say it's the primal creedal confession Jesus is Lord. When I hear that very, I mean very, very true statement. But when I dissect that I could sit there and say, well, the Catholics believe that they would confess Jesus is Lord. Eastern Orthodox would say that there's a whole bunch of Christians that disagree about a whole bunch of stuff, but they unite on the idea that Christ is Lord. Right.
Speaker 4:Yes, so what's your question?
Speaker 2:The question is then is that really the primal creedal confession, when there's so much differences between, I'll just say, their confessional views on certain things like justification by faith? Right?
Speaker 4:Yes, so so say creeds like the Apostles Creed or the Athanasian Creed or the Lutheran Augsburg Confession? Yeah, these are elaborations on confessing Jesus as Lord. So who made Jesus Lord? He didn't do it himself. His God and Father and our God and Father did that. How is Jesus related to God? Then you get a doctrine of the Trinity. What does Jesus mean for us and our righteousness? It's all up to Jesus. It's by grace alone, and those who believe in Jesus it's by grace alone and those who believe in Jesus. It's by faith alone, and so it's an elaboration. Either. What's what it assumes or presupposes, or what's entailed in making this confession? So it proposes to be a right way of being Christian. Anyone who wants to claim to be Christian in a right way would be consistent with this. They may want to talk about other things or they may have other interests, that that certainly is true, but it's meant simply this is what it means to be Christian.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Do you think Jesus is Lord is a tool for us to engage in inter-ecumenical conversation with other believers in other denominations and traditions? Talk about that.
Speaker 4:Well, you know what Jack was saying. In one sense, yes, because I'm just saying I'm a Christian. This is mere Christianity, to borrow from CS Lewis. But it's too mere just for that. So in the article I go into how does this confession arise? What makes it natural? And so, christians are people, to put it in a really general way, they're people who live according to a particular account of everything. Someone has offered his name is Paul Griffiths. He's a philosopher and theologian. This has a definition of religion.
Speaker 4:Religion is a notoriously difficult word to use because it means so many things, but when you talk about a hindu, a buddhist, a muslim, a christian, uh, what is it that they all share that leads people to think oh, the word religion fits. It isn't god. It isn't necessarily eternal life for salvation, in like what christians understand, but it is. All of them have an account of everything. All of them say here's how things really are and this is how the truth is. This is just the way the world is and it really is meaningful for understanding who we are, what we're up to, what is good. Uh, now, when christians do this, they relate this in the form of a story you know. Well, let me just say you know, christians do have an account of everything we say in, say, the Nicene Creed. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. That's an account of everything. But if you're going to be asked, well, can you say more about that? Can you tell me more about that?
Speaker 4:You start to tell a story. In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth. He spoke, and it was. He made all things and when he looked down at it was he was good, he was very good, and so on and so forth. Things go wrong. God resolves to redeem it. You get the story of Abraham and Israel. You come to Jesus. Who, well, he came to bring God's rule and reign. That's the kingdom of God. He comes to say God is going to take his world back, so repent, believe. Now we've just gone through when we're recording this Holy Week and Easter.
Speaker 4:Things didn't go so well for Jesus. He was rejected, he suffered, he was crucified, but God raised him from the dead. And although Jesus is ascended to heaven, no, god continues to reign and eventually Jesus will come back and finish what he started. And that's the story. And it leads you then to say, well, there's just one God, he's the story. And it leads you to them to say, well, there's just one god, he's the god and father of jesus, jesus, one he appointed, made lord over all things. Those who hear him, believe him, trust in him. You know they are on the right side of everything. God will give them eternal life, and so on and so forth, and so so the confession Jesus is Lord is attached to this story.
Speaker 4:That story is essential. But then you know, that story will tell you different things. So, for instance, it tells you about you asked about justification, what does it mean to be right with God? It means it's all up to Jesus and what he says. So it's by grace alone, it's through the word, it's through the gospel, and it's by grace alone, it's through the word, it's through the gospel and it's received by faith.
Speaker 4:And, uh, does this, does this make a difference? Sure it does. If you've been promised eternal life and salvation, you're going to be a different person. So we get our doctrine of sanctification. What's the church? What's the church? Are people who have heard this word and believe it, and and the like, and you get, you know, kind of the uh, the articulation of this, and you know, the lutheran confession is simply an articulation of this, but to talk about differences or where we're coming from, it rests really at the kind of the level of that story. So what are you saying that story is and how does it get worked out? And you talk about ecumenical dialogue. I think it rests there where the, the confession then is kind of our summary of if you've heard this and believe this, of course you'll think this, sure you'll do that. Does that help in that? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's so good. I believe, as I've talked to people outside of the Lutheran Church, as I've talked to people outside of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, confessing Christians, believers in the scripture, that unity around the grand narrative that you just articulated, I think the Holy Spirit is working. A unity. It's messy, it's difficult. It requires us to get into the particularities to talk about for us. You know the sacraments and maybe I've been saying for years, I think one of the gifts, the primary gift from the Lutheran's perspective, is this reawakening of God for us, the means of grace, word and sacrament, passive faith, justification, just returning to those things, but then maybe having a conversation around the work of the Holy Spirit, the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. Maybe we have some things to learn there.
Speaker 1:Every time we enter into this macro story we then say this is sin. I think we want to draw distinctions around the particularities of our cultural context, around the story, and say the particularities here should, should totally be seen in your, in your space, and I could get into the particularities of then how it's the, how the church lives, it lives it out, um, in diverse contexts. We're not disagreeing necessarily as lutherans now on the what I hope not. Jesus is Lord and the grand narrative. We would all agree. But then I think, the how it gets lived out in respective contexts, cross-culturally, et cetera. There's some wrestle there, there's some tension there. Anything more to say about the how Joel?
Speaker 4:Sure. So one of the virtues of confessionalism is for our time. This is what partly interests me, because it does allow for you to understand what does it mean to be one in faith but yet can recognize diversity of expression or emphasis. It allows you to root it in our Lord. In the story. Certain things have to be there. So he brought up about the means of grace.
Speaker 4:According to this story, how do you know you're one of God's people? He has to say so. What is baptism? Making you a disciple of Christ, making you a child of God, giving you the Holy Spirit? It follows right from the story. And so to think it's just my act, you know that's a problem. Holy communion is when we share one body and one blood and we are being made one people. To think it's just a memorial, that's a problem In terms of the story. That's why it matters so much. On the other hand, how to baptize. We should do it in a way which actually promotes faith and faithfulness for the one being baptized. Amen In some contexts. Yeah, you do want immersion.
Speaker 4:Not that you have to, but rather, yeah, you want to live that out In some places. How do we administer the lord's supper? It's one thing to administer it correctly, but how do you administer it well, uh, and you know you want it. So it awakens, strengthens faith, it makes people recognize yeah, I am with god, god's people, god's son, and so how we administer, but allows you to get certain ideas, this would be better than others. You know the adiaphora, you know those are the so-called indifferent matters. Those are the things neither commanded nor forbidden. Those are the things you have to think about. If it's commanded, don't think about it, just do it. If it's forbidden, do not think about. If it's commanded, don't think about it, just do it. If it's forbidden, do not think about it yeah, yeah, no, it's the adiaphora they actually have to work through.
Speaker 4:Uh, and you know, maybe this is missouri senate, but too often they're just whatever I want to do. That's not right. It's what is good for you know the gospel, for faith, for faithfulness in that situation and, uh, so you know the confessions tell you all right, here you got to stay on track, but here here it gives you a trajectory also to to work in I've heard it described that working through adiaphora is is a process of creating space for the gospel.
Speaker 2:That you know, as we're discerning as we're, as we're trying to figure out what are we going to do and not do we want to have in our mind? Is this creating space for the gospel to be proclaimed, shared, preached to everybody, as many people as possible, and also received right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's. I haven't heard that, but that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, the idea is not for our sake, it's for the sake of the gospel. It's for our Lord. The idea for our sake is for the sake of the gospel.
Speaker 2:It's for our Lord and the creating of space can vary somewhat depending on the cultural context that you're in. Yeah, no doubt about that. Yeah, what creates a worshipful space, a worshipful environment where people are more open to hearing?
Speaker 4:God's word? I think that's yeah. Now, that's always a messy thing. Well, of course, you know if they're nice, but it calls for patience and dialogue, and repentance.
Speaker 2:I think one of the most important things about the confession that Jesus is Lord is what goes along with that confession is a confession that we are not. We are not Lord. We are not. You know, I, at least I hope so that that is like implied in that confession, that to say it is, it is Christ who's the Lord, right? So then, our, our salvation, as you said, depends on his status as being Lord, not as our statuses co-savior, co-, co-lords, whatever. Whatever that might be, um, right it's. It's a confession of entire dependence upon god in christ as our lord yes, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 4:So, in terms of god as the creator god is god, you're not, and yeah so jesus, he is lord so people struggle with that. I think that's probably the primary struggle that people have in their faith well, in one sense, that's good from this standpoint, because original sin is not wanting to let god be god. It's, it's unbelief. It's it's not just a hindrance, it's not like it's more than a disease that makes you unable to be righteous. No, it is unrighteousness in the terms of unbelief.
Speaker 1:And that never goes away, Right?
Speaker 4:So yeah, no if I hear you, or something like this. No, the church's own message has to actually be clear about this. It has to be clear about this. It has to be, in one sense, an attack on the old creature in us, Yep and proclaiming Jesus as Lord is and actually meaning that.
Speaker 1:Does that? Yes, as you look, how long have you been a professor now at the seminary?
Speaker 4:Oh, more than 25 years. Yeah, praise God.
Speaker 1:Praise God as you get. You know, students come and kind of go and we get sent. As you're getting to form the future of really our synod and her leaders, or preachers and teachers, what are your biggest prayers as you shape? Well, maybe let me shape this question this way how, as you've looked at, culture and the devolving polarized and this is going to lead us into darkness long coming. We're getting into the politics in the church. How is your understanding of shaping the theological Lutheran mind of your student evolved 25 years ago to today? How is it different? And many things are still the same, obviously, but how is it different?
Speaker 4:Well, the difference is, it's much more obvious how, uh, how confused, conflicted. But we just live in a more, much more confusing conflicted situation. Uh, and that's not even from a necessarily even a christian standpoint. Almost everybody recognizes this.
Speaker 4:Uh, 30 years ago there was a book, or maybe a little bit more 30 years ago, a book published called culture wars by james davidson hunter, and uh, so I I saw an interview, I read an interview with him, uh, on the 30th, but when it was 30 years publication and he was asked you know what's changed? And he said well, back in the 90s there was still, you know, biblical hermeneutics and and theology, not anymore, it's just survival. And, uh, it's, it's, that's certainly true. Uh, so it one sense, uh, the idea that christians can try to retrieve, you know, the idea that Christians can try to retrieve, you know an allegedly good old days. Well, that's never a good idea anyway, but that's gone. But there is a lot of confusion and all sorts of people feel this in one sense, the church has a wonderful opportunity. It has real challenges. There's no doubt about that, because the church for so long was used to having a position of privilege and getting over that, I mean, so we don't even know how much.
Speaker 2:Uh but uh, but the situation still feel like we're in a position of privilege and and kind of operate that that way to a certain extent to a certain extent, and a lot of it is actually unconscious to us, until something hits us like, oh, uh.
Speaker 4:On the other hand, uh, kind of you know, I in that art. You were alluded to, the article. You know, darkness long in coming, and one reason was it echoes well, various people, like the philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre, who says we're entering a new dark ages. He's the one who spoke about waiting for a new Benedict, which the idea of the Benedict option comes from, but another person who spoke about this was Friedrich Nietzsche. He has the story of his madman, and God is dead. The madman, according to the story, comes into the town square with a lantern. It's broad daylight. Why? Well, because God is dead and it's going to get dark.
Speaker 4:And the darkness they're talking about, though or Nietzsche is is the sense. You know the touchstones, the landmarks by which we guided our lives. You know they're disappearing, and what would you get? Well, you would get actually confusion and conflict, and you can see that. But who wants that? I mean, virtually no one does. And Christians? Well, we're believers that this is not the end of it. This is God's world, and he's going to have his way, and we've been promised life in the world to come. In the meantime, nothing can separate us from the love of God and Christ Jesus. So we can live by hope and we ought to and we have something we can share with others in a time which is increasingly troubled and hopeless. It doesn't guarantee anything, but rather than being fearful about how things are different, let's remember, let's have confidence in. We know how things will be, it'll be good for us and that God and his grace would have all men, all people, to be his and enjoy this and let's go for it.
Speaker 1:No-transcript. I read a book and I can't remember the name of it now, but talked about repentance, metanoia. There it was. That's the name of the book, metanoia, and just kind of seeing above, meta above, knowing, knowing above, and the Apostle Paul refers to this. I think it's Colossians right To be seated with Christ above. What is the role today in the church? Kind of modeling for the world, because I think we're way close to the book of Acts than we are to the Reformation ages and the season of enlightenment. So go back. How did they do it? They consistently preached a kingdom that was above and beyond. And we're so prone, as fallen human sinners, to lower ourselves to live with these faulty gods money, politics, power, petty power, plays, etc. To kind of give us significance and meaning and it just never, it never satisfies. So talk a little bit more about politics, being in the dark and how the Christians need this new way of being and seeing the world.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, yeah, there are a couple of ways to look at this. I had a. I just got contacted by a student from one of my students lives in Brazil, and he wanted to know he was reminded about something, about how politics was becoming the new religion and that that certainly is true. But in one sense, though, let's go back to jesus is lord. No, that is the ultimate political statement. It is when you, when you read the book of luke, you mentioned acts but started luke. Uh, you know, zechariah is introduced by talking about herod, and then the birth of jesus by talking about caesar augustus. But what's the point? No, no, an entirely new and wonderful political, political reality is about to dawn. And uh, so when?
Speaker 4:When jesus is being crucified, the thief, we often call him penitent, but he's not penitent, he's fearful, he, he actually believes that the man next to him who's being crucified this is not the end dying on the cross is not going to stop him. He actually is the lord, he really is the king of israel. Uh, so he's going to come back, and these people here are mocking him. They're going to be the first to go. So, jesus, remember him when you come into your kingdom, and actually, jesus, doesn't one better. Today you'll be with me in paradise or on the road to emmaus. You know why are you guys so downcast? Well, it was jesus. We thought he was the one come to redeem Israel. His long answer is I am.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I have heard that that's right, and therefore, the kingdoms, the politics of this world, are they a gift of God? Is this how he rules things? The answer is yes. And is it messy? Oh yeah, and it can get worse. It has been worse, and so let's thank God for what he does accomplish through this. Let's take our responsibilities now, but let's recognize, whatever happens, the whole thing is under his control. His way of controlling, his way of dealing with it is full of love and grace and mercy and abundance and righteousness and peace, and it's found in Jesus. And let us, let's pray Come, lord Jesus. Let's look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Let's live like it and and be willing to to share it so you talk about politics, uh, and christians connected.
Speaker 1:Would you define politics for us, because you kind of made the reference that jesus is a political figure of of sorts.
Speaker 4:So yeah, define politics, joel well, politics is the way a community finds its aim, its goals, its life together. It's the who, what, where, when, how of all this. So it's 2024. The United States of America is well. It's been gearing up since 2020 for the next election, but it's a who and how is the next president is going to govern Christians too?
Speaker 4:Well, yes, things go a certain way. They don't go just by themselves. Christians are convinced someone is behind it all, and we know it to be Jesus. He's the one God appointed to do this. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, and that so, in the long run, that's the politics. Baptism is a political, political act. It is to belong to this one is he is going to take care of you and the like, and so confession is simply confessing I'm with Jesus, yeah, yeah. But then, in the meantime, christians know we're fellow creatures with everybody else. We have our responsibilities and we ought to, not to shy away from them. We should do what we can, knowing not so much. We should do it for the well-being of our neighbors. It's not for Jesus, it's his world anyway.
Speaker 2:It's rather for the well-being of our, our neighbors that we should be involved how should christians then think about their role as in the, in the voting booth, like they have in america? At least they've been given a privilege to vote yeah and in what way does the confession Christ is Lord? How does that affect or how does that cause us to think maybe differently as we approach?
Speaker 4:voting. The voting booth is not the most important political act. It's how you treat your neighbors. Might be how you think about those things. I remember it was very interesting. This is 15 years ago. There was something in missouri, some kind of amendment that was on the ballot. Uh, had to do with a life issue. Anyway, it turns out the atheist couple in our block. They went around, they invited everybody to come to their house. They would feed us, give us wine, and let's not talk about this, let's not look at everybody else's sign. I remember thinking at the end well, these guys know how to do politics. No, we should think about this in a more local, personal kind of thing. There's this apparatus. We just kind of I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but it's much more about how we treat our neighbors and whether we want to invest in them and our lives together. Having said that, well, you have to do the best you can, but that's a messy business. How many promises are going to be kept? Who's actually doing these things? It's.
Speaker 2:I've been thinking about it through the lens of vocation, where we all have jobs to do, and in America, this is one of the jobs that we have to do and vocation is always about how am I contributing to the neighbor? Right, that's, exactly right, that's exactly right. You go to the voting booth and the question is how am I caring for my neighbor? By how I vote? And there's sometimes many right ways to think about that, Right?
Speaker 4:Right, so you know. I guess it was Ronald Reagan who asked you know, are you better off? Something like that? No, we should ask ourselves will my neighbor be better off? Yeah, yes, man.
Speaker 1:If the church lived like that, modeled that, the world would be so. But we, just, we just don't. We like flies to vomit or a dog to vomit. We, we don't choose. The humble path is the way of sacrifice and service for the other, is the way of sacrifice and service for the other. And the Holy Spirit is the comforter, caretaker, and then he moves us, drives us from you know, reception. I'm just thinking two kinds of righteousness here. Right, I mean receiving everything from God and then, in the power of the Holy Spirit, releasing it generously for the sake of my neighbor, that they would know the love of God too.
Speaker 1:You say this in a darkness, long and coming. You say the problem is that we often don't know that, we don't know what we're talking about. And then you have this awesome Harawas quote. Morally speaking, the first issue is never what we are to do, but what we should see. And I'll pause right there. I think we've been talking all about what we should see. Now that the Holy Spirit has come and created faith in us, we see how holy, unworthy we are of God's love and how loving he is to give it on behalf of Jesus. The quote goes on.
Speaker 1:Here is the way it works. You can act only in the world that you can see and I love how he finishes here and you must be taught to see by learning to say, must be taught to see by learning to say. And here's one of my struggles to get into the politics of the LCMS I don't think we're seeing always correctly because we're not speaking with one another who may have nuanced, adiaphora, contextual differences. Definitely they have contextual differences. We all, the melting pot of the United States of America, there's so many diverse micro communities, but I don't know that we're speaking to one another, uniting around the story and then learning to say charitably if we're not seeing clearly, but often we don't even know because we're so stuck. Pride creates hubris and it just keeps us stuck in our own narrow way of seeing rather than the expansiveness of what the Holy Spirit gives to us. But to work that out we must learn to speak with one another more consistently. Say more on that, joel.
Speaker 4:Yes. So what? George Orwell? You know a well-known article, politics in the English Language. He argues something like this In other words, if we learn to write, we learn to speak better, our thinking might become better. In other words, if we don't think well, we're not going to write well. But the other way might be if we can write better, if we can think better, more clearly, more fully, more honestly, then maybe we will be better. And it's something along those lines that there is something to that. And so let's make the effort, let's expand our vocabularies, let's learn how to interact those kinds of things, those kind of habits. And I did make in that article the point that the church itself struggles from this, even in her own discourse, much less the wider political one. And so maybe we want to start there.
Speaker 1:But well, yeah, where would you start? Talk about our discourse? This is one of the main reasons this podcast exists, Joel is. I don't think we're talking across whatever respective aisle may exist in the LCMS, and I think it's hurting our Christian witness. So let's start with the church. Where do you think we have to grow as we learn to say what we see?
Speaker 4:Well, I'll start with something I think is simple and applies all over the place. But how about just the? Well? No, I'll start with this. You referred to my confessionalism article and I brought up a couple of questions that used to be in an older edition of our synodical catechism. They didn't do very well. They asked who is the one true God? And they gave an answer which you might say is doctrine correct, but it couldn't help a child learn to talk about God. It didn't give a very good answer to who is Jesus Christ and we're talking about God and Jesus here, and because it was just here's the right answer, it wasn't taking those kind of questions seriously. Now, of course, when there was Christendom, you didn't have to take those seriously. Everybody knows who God is, Everybody knows who Jesus is, but not anymore, that's right.
Speaker 4:No, we have to learn to take really basic questions like what is a good answer to the question who is your God? What's a good answer? What are some good answers to the question? What is your God? What's a good answer? What are some good answers to the question? What is the Bible? You know, the Bible is some kind of value that we have and so we have to say, oh, it's this. We have our own pet answer it's the Word of God. Well, of course that's true, but there are different ways to unpack that. And why do you want to say that? Let's learn to think about what are some good answers? And that depends, you know you bring up about context. What are you trying to accomplish with your answer?
Speaker 4:Yeah, another is defining things, most Christian concepts, I think all of them. They're just summaries of certain ways of thinking, certain ways of acting, certain ways of responding. So, for instance, to justify, what's to justify? Well, we should be able to not only say it's to make right, declare right, be in the right, do right by, but we should also be able to illustrate that. I use this A man buys a car and it's a lemon.
Speaker 4:If you're not from the United States, that means a car doesn't work. The car does not do right by the man. It does not justify itself to the man. A man buys a car and his wife hates it. I tried this out with my wife and she said he buys another car. That's exactly right. He does not do right by his wife. He I tried this out with my wife and she said he buys another car. That's exactly right. He does not do right by his wife. He does not justify himself to her. That's all we mean by that.
Speaker 4:When we're talking about justification by grace, it would be you know, a man has an affair and he's sorry. He wants things to be right with his wife. What should he do? Furs Diamonds wants things to be right with his wife. What should he do? Furs diamonds don't even think about it. If, if it's going to be right, it's all up to her. You mean by grace alone, and he'd better not forget it. I did share that once. I shared this regular with class and a guy who had heard it before said he, his wife said diamonds and furs wouldn't hurt, and I said I said propitiation yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what that is.
Speaker 4:It's exactly what it is and god's provided that too so god actually goes out and forgives us, and then he has also, in his love, given his son as propitiation for our sins. God doesn't do it because he's angry, he's wrathful, he does it because he loves us Romans 5, 1 John 4. No, this is the extent to which God loves you and all, and we should be able to explain these things and bring them out, as opposed to just. This is our slogan, this is our platitude. I mean, it's a wonderful slogan to have, don't get me wrong, but we should do better than that. And so I mean talking about in terms of the church. We have to be able to explain ourselves and relate them these kind of concrete ways, and then live like we believe them.
Speaker 1:I don't know that we're thinking clearly in the church and one of the reasons I know that is I don't know that we're talking clearly to one another. And there's, you know, we've kind of tiptoed around, let's just dive right in. There's's a propensity to put labels on one another within the church which are unhelpful because the definition to the label is not clearly articulated. Mission, confession, tradition, contemporary, all of these different things. Well, you're that type of a Lutheran, you're this type of a Lutheran. Well, we're not even creating the space to dialogue about it.
Speaker 1:What is it about human beings that want to create labels to put people in categories so they don't have to think or talk to them? I see it consistently, even in invitations to come on. Thank you for saying yes. By the way, the bells of the Holy Spirit are ringing in the background. It's great Church, this saying yes. By the way, the bells of the Holy Spirit are ringing in the background. It's great Church. This is church, right? But what is it about Even some people saying I don't know that I can talk to them because they're that type of, they're in that camp? I just think it's very dysfunctional. Any thoughts on that, joel?
Speaker 4:Well, no, it's dysfunctional. No, that's that's. No, I don't that that's wrong, that's just wrong. I love it no because no, no, I can't say that's not treating someone like a person. No, they're just an object. That's that's actually a large problem. In other words, you're not someone, you're something, and that's what that kind of that's happened throughout, of course, human history, across cultures. That doesn't make it right. That's just evidence of sin. But no, that is not treating someone like a person.
Speaker 1:So I want to put a pause. Is your office right by the bells in the courtyard?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we can pause and I'll find a different place, is that?
Speaker 1:okay, no, you don't need to. No, no, no, I'm just saying it's fantastic, go ahead. Why don't?
Speaker 4:you do something else, though. I mean, I have my windows open because it's warm.
Speaker 1:So I'm need to close them. Joel, I would. It's actually delightful, but go ahead, close the window. That's fine. It's so funny. I love it for those of you who are watching. Right now, his office dr okamoto's office just skirts the courtyard and, uh, the bells there at concordia seminary in st louis are are fantastic. Is this calling people to chapel right now? Is this what's going on?
Speaker 4:No, I don't know what it is Actually, don't I really like it too, but it's a concert.
Speaker 1:It's a concert.
Speaker 4:So all right, let's land the plane.
Speaker 2:There's a little mini recital going on right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a mini recital, a bell recital. Anyhow, let's land this conversation here by giving Rappaport's rules. I love this from your article. He regards these rules as the best antidote to character when we, when we are going down this path to build labels but we want those labels we put aside so we can maybe learn from someone who has maybe a diverse understanding or it's on a polarizing topic. Here are his four rules, and I'd love to have you go deeper on these.
Speaker 1:The first rule is this as you're talking to someone who you have maybe put a label on, made them something rather than someone, you should first attempt to re-express your target's position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says thanks. I wish I'd thought of putting it that way. I love it. You should then list point number two, list any points of agreement, especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement. So find that point of commonality. You should then mention anything you've learned from your target, your partner in dialogue. This is helpful. This gives actually the appropriate amount of okay, they see me, they know me, they are treating me as someone, they've at least heard my perspective, and it's only then, according to Rappaport's rules, it's only then that you're permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism. I think this is a helpful tool for us today in the church. Anything more to add to that, joel?
Speaker 4:No, I, yeah, I think so too, of course, among other things, then, not only are you honoring the person you're talking to and by trying to express their position, but also you're making it about the position, not the person Trying to keep it. You might say objective, it's not personal, it's about this, and I can tell you it's about this, because I can tell you this is what it means, right, yeah, and yeah, you made a good point when you said this, and I agree, you know I learned something new, but I got to say this. But you're in a much better position then, because you know the other person has been been treated with, with the appropriate kind of respect. It isn't just I don't agree, you're wrong. No, here, here we're actually trying to get somewhere. There's a possibility of moving, moving past all that. Now, maybe not, but at least you haven't immediately ended the conversation by saying here's how you're wrong. That almost never works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been at the last three synodical conventions, joel, as a pastoral delegate, and we make attempts toward this end and it's the best we can do for trying to organize ourselves as a 200-year-old church body. And yet I hope the dialogue continues as we move into our circuits and our districts, because even now I'm prone. I just received an email from a buddy Tell me the 15, because he's the author. I'm not going to. From a buddy Tell me, tell me the 15, because he's author. I'm not going to get into who it is, but tell me the 15 district presidents who would be open to you know receiving what I wrote. You know, and on the one hand I'm like, okay, I know some of the guys and ask somebody you know and but even that is kind of like it doesn't feel good. You know, like all 35, I hope would want to learn all 35 districts and then circuits, et cetera. You know, starting from the top of our president, if we're learning, the church must take the posture of humility and learning. I don't know that we have any other, any other choice and I do believe the Lutheran church, missouri synod, because I learned. I just want to honor you because I've learned from theologians like you. I'm who I am as a pastor and a leader because of how I was shaped at the seminary by theologians like you and how I was shaped in the congregation. But I still have more to learn, like I always will have, like I always will have. If you, if you narrow in in one discipline, this should create ample humility in the other disciplines and curiosity rather than condemnation. And so I just see a spirit of the church going into refutation mode, building labels and ultimately it's it's keeping the individual, and maybe the pocket of individuals, from from learning, and that's very sad because that's not the way of Jesus. Jesus, this is kind of crazy. Jesus entered into human flesh as a, as a co-journer and a and a learner.
Speaker 1:Jesus asked questions. Isn't this interesting? You mentioned the, the road to Emmaus, which is Easter Sunday, by the way, just preached on this a couple, couple of days ago. A lot of times we maybe separate it. No, no, no. Jesus has appeared to the women, appeared to Peter, and now in Luke's account, in Luke 24, he's appearing to Cleopas and this unnamed guy. I love it. So, this unnamed guy, so you and I, we can find ourselves maybe on that road and Jesus meets us there, Insert our name there and Jesus asks a question. Right, jesus asks a question. He's kept from being revealed for us, I think, so blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed. He then asked what are you guys talking about? He just wants to enter into the story. Jesus is curious. Yeah, then, are you the only like? There's this tone, I think from the guys from Cleopas?
Speaker 1:Are you the only?
Speaker 1:one in Jerusalem who doesn't know the things that have happened this day? And Jesus doesn't say well, I'm done with you. You know, here I am. I definitely know, right, no, no, no. Jesus says what, what things? I think it's kind of humorous, right, what, what things? And then they enter into their understanding of the story, not completely understanding why, and then Jesus gives his oh, let me tweak some things here. Let me get my perspective on on what Jesus came to do and why it was necessary for him to suffer and to die. Jesus is a learner. Any, any closing comments on the humility of Christ. This has been so much fun For me too.
Speaker 4:Yes, jesus was willing to engage with all kinds of people, and sometimes I was just talking to a class about this we don't appreciate fully some of the things. We do Not because we don't want to learn from Jesus as much as it doesn't fit our kind of already preconceived notions about what Jesus came to do. So, for instance, the Canaanite woman sometimes said well, jesus was testing her faith. I don't see it that way. I don't see how he can be reading the Gospel of Matthew. Where he comes, he's going to save his people, israel, from their sins. Wise men come from the east looking for the one born king of the Jews. He tells the disciples not to go to you know, only go to the Israelites. Well, because, like the woman says, he's the son of David. Yes, I am Israel's king, people like you, a king and a woman. They were supposed to be wiped out by the way, right.
Speaker 4:No, he doesn't, but he's like no you're right, I didn't come for you, but she persists, she persists. You know he calls her a dog. She responds it's like, well, she's like woman you have. You really do have great faith, sure, of course, and we see Jesus reacting and responding. And he's our brother, he's our, you know, he is our Lord lord, but he's also our brother and, uh, we should learn from from that. He doesn't have, you know, just a snappy answer now, of course, sometimes he does but well for the pride, for the prideful.
Speaker 1:Most of the time his snappy answers are for the arrogant who think they figured it out.
Speaker 4:Is that fair? Yes, yeah, uh, yeah and peter, but anyway and peter and peter.
Speaker 1:Well, because, he was arrogant right, yeah, yeah he thought, he, he had, his, he had his uh agenda, his plans, right before you speak that's right.
Speaker 4:That's right, no and uh, no, the way. And jesus is the way God makes himself known. He makes himself known in the one who was born in Bethlehem, raised in Nazareth, crucified under Pontius Pilate, raised on the third day. There are other ways you can think about God, but all of our thinking about God and how we deal with him and how we represent him, how we are his children here on earth, runs through Jesus. And let's follow Jesus.
Speaker 1:Praise be to God. Jesus is Lord. This has been so much fun. If people want to connect with you, Dr Okamoto, how can they do so?
Speaker 4:They can contact me through the seminary. I have a seminary email account, okamotojcsledu. I guess you can call the switchboard and contact me, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Old school. This has been so much fun. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in podcasts like this, and we promise to continue to learn with amazing, amazing Jesus followers confessing Jesus is Lord, like Dr Okamoto. Thank you so much, jack. Wonderful work, as always. It's a good day. Go and make it with the power of the Holy Spirit and His word, his love for you and for the world. A fantastic day. Thank you so much, brothers.
Speaker 3:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.