Explore the dynamic interplay of faith and leadership with Jim Sanft, president of Concordia Plan Services, as we uncover the foundations of his insightful new book, "Leading by Faith." Jim, with his characteristic blend of humility and expertise, peels back the layers on the limitations of a purely mathematical approach to problem-solving and invites us into a world where God's boundless mathematics take the lead. Our conversation navigates the powerful potential of church partnerships within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, particularly in youth ministry, and how seasoned pastors play a pivotal role in nurturing the confidence of emerging leaders.
In a landscape where mentorship and the integration of theological heritage with practical ministry training are the cornerstones, we examine the biblical roots of partnership. Reflecting on the leadership exemplified by Moses and Aaron, Elijah, and Jesus with his disciples, we discuss the 'both and' rather than 'either or' approach that amplifies the impact of collective ministry. Adding to this rich tapestry, we delve into gender diversity in leadership teams, highlighting the importance of different perspectives and the power of iron sharpening iron through constructive conflict.
The strategic brilliance behind Concordia Plan Services is also laid bare, as we discuss their adept management of a substantial investment portfolio and the collective bargaining power that provides smaller ministries with much-needed resources. The chapter on leadership journeys is a treasure trove of insights, revealing the humility and trust required in faith-based leadership and challenging conventional wisdom. As we conclude, we honor the transformative influence of individuals like Jim Sanft in the church community and the mission of the Unite Leadership Collective to blend biblical Lutheran doctrine with innovative methods to spread the gospel message.
Visit uniteleadership.org
Explore the dynamic interplay of faith and leadership with Jim Sanft, president of Concordia Plan Services, as we uncover the foundations of his insightful new book, "Leading by Faith." Jim, with his characteristic blend of humility and expertise, peels back the layers on the limitations of a purely mathematical approach to problem-solving and invites us into a world where God's boundless mathematics take the lead. Our conversation navigates the powerful potential of church partnerships within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, particularly in youth ministry, and how seasoned pastors play a pivotal role in nurturing the confidence of emerging leaders.
In a landscape where mentorship and the integration of theological heritage with practical ministry training are the cornerstones, we examine the biblical roots of partnership. Reflecting on the leadership exemplified by Moses and Aaron, Elijah, and Jesus with his disciples, we discuss the 'both and' rather than 'either or' approach that amplifies the impact of collective ministry. Adding to this rich tapestry, we delve into gender diversity in leadership teams, highlighting the importance of different perspectives and the power of iron sharpening iron through constructive conflict.
The strategic brilliance behind Concordia Plan Services is also laid bare, as we discuss their adept management of a substantial investment portfolio and the collective bargaining power that provides smaller ministries with much-needed resources. The chapter on leadership journeys is a treasure trove of insights, revealing the humility and trust required in faith-based leadership and challenging conventional wisdom. As we conclude, we honor the transformative influence of individuals like Jim Sanft in the church community and the mission of the Unite Leadership Collective to blend biblical Lutheran doctrine with innovative methods to spread the gospel message.
Visit uniteleadership.org
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Calberg is still sick. I pray you feel better soon. But today I get the privilege of hanging out with the president of Concordia Plan Services, jim Sanf. I've gotten to know Jim over the years. We've been at different conferences together. You could go back to the American Reformation podcast. I was blessed to chat with them a few months back, but I was so enthused to hear your presentation on leadership. Now what you need to know about Jim is he may lead one of the largest entities in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, concordia Planned Services and we're all thankful for you and your leadership and I hear from many pastors all the time, as do you for that amazing pension.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of pastors we love to talk about that pension. Maybe we'll get into that today. But what you may not know is Jim is humble, humble. Anytime you talk to Jim, he often prefaces it and I'm letting you know you don't have to use this preface by saying I'm not a pastor, I'm not a pastor. Here's what I know. You may not be ordained, but you are pastoring, shepherding so many people within your organization and within the wider LCMS. So thank you, Thank you, Thank you. How are you doing today, Jim?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. Thanks for the opportunity to be on the podcast today. Please let Jack know I'm missing him. I listen to the podcast regularly and so I was hoping to meet him, so I'm sorry he's not feeling well and not part of our conversation today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is going to be great. So came out with a new book, wrote it was pleased to endorse it Leading by Faith, coming out in May what day specifically?
Speaker 3:May 28th is the official release date.
Speaker 2:All right, all right. So we're going to get into some of those ideas today. Your first key idea and you also you identify as a well first off, your identity is in Christ, a baptized child of God, but then you identify as a math dork. Yeah, so say more. Tell me about your kind of math background, which is very helpful in being in Concordia. Plans to be a math dork, but do some math. For us, god's math is bigger than our math. That's your first key idea in the book.
Speaker 3:It was and maybe, if I could share, the presentation that I know you're referring to was one I did for the Large Church Network, I guess. I guess I was back in January and it's only a chapter out of the book. So there's one chapter on the power of partnerships and, and one of the things that I really wanted to start out is, is this idea of God's math and it being so much bigger than our math, right? And so I had some fun, you know, with you, with the audience. You know, went through some easy arithmetic. You know addition, subtraction, but got to one plus one and you all called out two. And you know, but we know from scripture that one plus one equals one. You know, when we're talking about husband and wife, the two shall become one. When we looked at what seven, you know five plus two, and you jumped to the answer and it's five loaves and two fishes. You can feed thousands, and so God has this great multiplier effect, you know, bringing his blessing on everything. It's not what we think it is, you know. You know our thoughts are not his thoughts, our ways aren't his ways. It's so much bigger, and so really setting up that math is like, okay, you know, this is the stuff I know.
Speaker 3:You know, went through all of this stuff at Concordia, nebraska, get our plug in for our alma mater, tim go Bulldogs and really had that strong math background and in a lot of ways it can shape thinking.
Speaker 3:It also can narrow your thinking. It can narrow your thinking if you're always very answer-oriented versus really solutions-oriented right, because our educational system really rewards you getting answers and there's a single right answer. When you're going through the math program you get in the real world and you find out well, that's not really the case at all. There's rarely ever is there that single right answer and you're always looking for those optimal solutions. But in that conversation what we're setting up is really this idea of how God can really multiply the blessings in the area of partnerships when different entities can come together, different organizations. And try to bring some examples of my career Before working for the church I'm an actuary, part of that being a math dork right Things that I did in the industry, but then also bring into the work at Concordia Plans and then beyond Concordia Plans too, as we work closely with our counterparts in other denominations.
Speaker 2:Let's just pause there. I don't know that churches are taking maximum advantage today of partnerships. You get a wide breadth of what's going on in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I see pockets of partnership. But I'd love for it to become and the reason you wrote this I'd love for it to become a value. Let's just start with churches work, lcms, churches in the circuit, working with other churches, identifying your strengths, casting big vision, but not necessarily having to reinvent the entire wheel. I've been kicking around like what would it look like for youth ministry to in a circuit, say, east Valley here of Phoenix, for us to start to work together consistently to bring because there's a critical mass component. You know that sometimes our individual churches can't have for our young people and so could we work together more worship nights et cetera, stuff like that. There's great power, but I don't know if it's in the DNA of all of our pastors and leaders. I think we tend to operate as solopreneurs and isolated entities. Just go a little bit deeper in terms of what could be with partnership. Jim.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're right, so right, and it's my observation as well and I think we become very focused on our one place, our one mission, our one organization and when we need to really step out and look at the broader mission that we've been given, right, we haven't been called to make members of our congregation. We've been called to make disciples. Make members of our congregation, we've been called to make disciples. And you know how are we going to define the win? Is the win getting them into our place and get a member go through formal membership and start, you know, contributing to the offering plate? Or is it to make sure that they're with us, you know, in heaven one day?
Speaker 3:Too often, I see, we look at the church down the road as the competitor, and you can see it and understand why it plays out. Because you do have the people who church hop, right, they're a member here and they're a member there and they're looking for something else. So if we look at our neighboring church as the enemy, we're just doomed then in terms of having any sort of partnership. But if we understand that there's a larger mission, there's a larger purpose sort of redefining what the win is then we start thinking about well, okay, we're pretty close to each other here. How do we work together to reach the community around us? I think it takes that mindset. You got to move out of being competitors to being collaborators.
Speaker 2:Well, we know a lot of the churches, our churches are declining and so there's going to be more and more sole pastors and there's nothing and you know all the data here, there's nothing negative about smaller church, but I think it can be used as a very strategic advantage. But it can be seen then, say, the young pastor coming into that maybe rural or suburban setting with a church that worships you know the median is 55 right now in the LCMS in terms of average weekly worship attendance. So say they're worshiping 75 or so they can. They're making this investment in their next leader man. If he's just coming in saying and I remember this feeling, you know I got another sermon and then Lent's coming up and then Advent is here. I got to do two sermons a week but I got to go visit, you know, grandma Mary and all of these precious saints and it can just feel overwhelming.
Speaker 2:So one opportunity for partnership. We're actually writing a little, a short little book on this right now, our team at the ULC, but the power of partnership in sermon, in sermon writing, and maybe some lay leaders get together consistently and strategize on how we're going to work together on sermon preparation, developing illustrations et cetera. I can't interpret scripture on my own. This is the core principle for me. I have to have the body of Christ. But we may have created a culture where the pastor does the sermon and he isolates himself in an office, just like mine, and comes up with creative ideas. That is an overwhelming thing to think about for for especially a younger pastor. Anything more to add about other practical ways that churches can can partner together, jim?
Speaker 3:Well, if you don't mind, I'm actually going to reflect on what you just shared.
Speaker 3:I think about you know when, when you leave academia and you go into a corporate setting, you're not going it alone. You know you're at the lower end of the totem pole, so to speak, right, and you hope that you have good mentors who help encourage you and train you up. And you know, when I'm doing presentations to senior leadership, you know my boss helped prepare me, right, he grilled me and so I had that collaboration. And you know, the first time, you know that I went in, you know, to a senior VP to do a presentation, my boss and mentor was right there encouraging, coaching me. And it just strikes me though we, you know, I know that you've got the full, robust seminary education, you know the vicarage, you know, but then this young person lands at this, at this organization, and everything's on you, right, and you don't have that immediate trainer, mentor, encourager me, the thing that you're describing.
Speaker 3:There is something that, you know, I just saw play out in a collaboration within a corporate environment where people maybe from different divisions or whatever, you know it's iron, sharpening iron, helping you get better and raise up. And so, you know, kudos to you for identifying that, because I just I see so much isolation with our pastors, right, you get thrown into this thing and you're the only one. So, without a kind of thing that you're describing, it's just got to be incredibly lonely. And how do you get better? Unless you're exposed to other individuals? And you know, I suppose you open yourself up for critique and you know, listening to how maybe you can improve some of your craft as well.
Speaker 2:It's just so needed, I think, in the system it really is, so could, as theological formation, I think it will by necessity need to evolve in some way, shape or form. Could mentoring pastors, experienced pastors, be in relationship with the new pastors for a longer period of time? Right now the system in the LCMS is it's very, very hard to get in. The training is very, very long and then it's easier because we're not necessarily held accountable by other seasoned pastors. We're kind of held accountable by one local congregation who's just frankly grateful. In many pastors we're kind of held accountable by one local congregation who's just frankly grateful. In many cases We've got finally someone who's here consistently. Could we flip it a little bit and say it's easier, easier, not academically, less rigorous et cetera, but there's a wider opening for folks to get in. Hey, I feel like there's this internal call that eventually could be ratified by an external call by a local congregation. I'm embedded in that congregation but then I'm under supervision for a variety of different pastoral tasks for a longer period of time.
Speaker 2:I'll just make the case that the latter appears to be the style of Jesus who invested for three years in deep formation with the 12. You could say he had a wider net of 100, 120 until the spirit came. They were a train wreck, by the way, at Pentecost and then they were released and you've got the Apostle Paul who we say is the greatest church planner of all time. Let's just drill into why he was the greatest church planner of all time Because he invested in people Jim, why He'd been in people Jim, why He'd been invested in Jim. He was under. There was a formation time for even the Apostle Paul. It wasn't like he needed Barnabas and others to stand up in the church in Jerusalem and say no, no, no. We have seen the character of Christ in this man and we believe he has a calling, literally from Jesus, to go and bring the message to Jew and to Gentile. And then the last point on this, and I'd love to get your take the last thing he does is write a letter to a young pastor, paul's, probably in his mid-60s.
Speaker 2:When 1 and 2 Timothy are written, and we often read these like they're the pastoral epistles, I heard recently that it's fine to call them the pastoral epistles, but they're the mentoring epistles, jim. They're the mentoring, as you've seen from me. 2 Timothy, 2.2, the four generations here, from Paul to Timothy, pass on to other men who will be able to pass it on to others as well. This isn't about you Don't forget where you came from. This is about your grandma and your mother, lois and Eunice, who poured into you. You're not alone in this journey. Run the good fight with perseverance. He's just. He's charging him.
Speaker 2:This is what we need more of today, I think, is experienced pastors who see something in younger leaders and put a charge into them, a Holy Spirit charge into them. This elevates the self-worth of that pastor. Like I'm not alone, I can have courage and great confidence as I move out, because I recognize that even when I make a mistake which I will I'm a fallen, broken person. There's a group of men and women, for that matter who are around me, who are ahead of me, who is a spiritual father and mother for me, who are going to correct me with love and care and kindness as I grow up into Christ, who is my head. We need more of that in the LCMS today, to be sure. Anything more to add to that, jim.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate the passion. I think I look at it, it's not an either, or we need a both and right, and the need, the hurt in the world is so evident. We need more people bringing the good news. At the same time, we have this wonderful, rich theological heritage right, and we don't want to set that aside. And so that's where I come at it from a both and and, and, although you, you know, kind of set me up to not play that card, I'm not a pastor and so I'm going to play it here.
Speaker 3:You know there's a lot to our theological education. You know, that is just wonderful. It's a layman of the church. I, you know, I treasure it. I, you know, I treasure it as, as I think, a knowledgeable, engaged layman in the church. You know, I do cringe when I see the I'll just say the bad theology. You know, come in and not from pastors, you know, but, but from some other places. So I think it's a both and and I don't think has to be an either. Or how do we do it and make sure, and I don't think it has to be an either, or how do we do it and make sure, and I think some of it is.
Speaker 3:I look at other disciplines You're getting that the training after the training, right. So you know I'll come back again into the corporate world. You know, had that opportunity and you work under somebody and you're given more responsibility and then pretty soon you get to lead teams, you get to lead projects and you're asked to do more and more. But it's not a day, one kind of thing, understanding that the learning has only begun once you enter that job. You know the learning has just begun when you, you know, were ordained and, you know, installed right, you didn't know it all on that day, you know your learning continued. So you know how do we make sure we continue to raise up, train, mentor, ordain, commission, lay and ongoing, you know, and ongoing training agree with that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2:the academy and the local church this is the both and must work together in formation, because deep theology, you know, connected to the original languages and to the history of the church, all of the disciplines that are in the seminary program is definitely, definitely needed, and pastors need to support and encourage those that are training in the academy and say here we are as the training continues, as the humble journey of maturation begins.
Speaker 2:Because when you start at anything new, jim, there's a right humility that says I really don't know what I'm doing. I may know some of it, but there's going to be wounds, there's going to be pain, I'm going to need people around me, and so how does a leader maintain that posture of humility moving into ministry? You've got in your presentation, you gave in your book as well. You give a number of different scriptures around the power of partnership. Any depth that you'd like to provide there all throughout Paul and Apollos in 1 Corinthians 6, or Proverbs 15, verse 22,. Without counsel, plans fail, but with many advisors you're just talking about this with many advisors, those plans succeed. Anything else to add to the power partnership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, when I was, when I was pulling this together, I spent a little time on Ecclesiastes 4 and this idea to better two or better than one because they have a good return for their toil, and I was reflecting on that and realizing that wasn't just straight additive, that has to be a multiple. See, I'm a math guy, I'm not any English guy.
Speaker 3:A multiplying effect in there somehow, right? Because it isn't just Jim producing X widgets and Tim producing Y widgets. So if we come together then we have X plus Y. No, that seems to be saying there's more. The good return means there's even more. We have X plus Y plus, you know, paul planted Paulus. Water may have those turned around, but God brought forward the growth, and so that's where God's math goes, goes to work here, right, and just say how, how do we bring those two, those, those three, those many together for the sake of the whole?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's hardwired in us to do life together at the base level. It was not good that Adam should be alone. Therefore, eve came and you see all sorts of the movement. The story of Israel is the power of partnership. Moses needed Aaron right. When Elijah got depressed, it's because he thought he was all alone. I love the story of Elijah under the brush tree and saying, oh my goodness, they're all falling away and God's like what are you talking about? I've reserved 10,000 for you. You're definitely not alone. So you see it all throughout Scripture and obviously the primary evidence is the Son of man, the Son of God in the flesh, needing partners in the gospel and Jesus calling the 12. Anything more to say about the ministry of Jesus and how he exemplified the power of partnership, jim?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, when he sent out the 12 and he sent out the 72, he sent them in pairs. Yes, he did, but I'm not sure we ever had an explanation of why um other. But I think we can assume he knew hey, this is gonna be hard, this is gonna be a hard journey and you're gonna need each other, um, um, I don't know. I mean, it's we're left to to to speculate on the why um, but it wasn't just random, right, because he did it twice. That was intentional, um, and so I think there's something there to learn from it.
Speaker 2:I love being a Lutheran Jim because Luther actually invites us to use our creativity and we're not this is a bit of speculation, to be sure, so we can't build a deep theology around this but because Jesus knows all of us and he obviously deeply knew how he had made his disciples of us, and he obviously deeply knew how he had made his disciples, I wonder how he paired them up. I don't think he. I'll make a statement and we'll ask him when he returns. This will be. This would be a fascinating question. What did you know about Peter that led you to put him with whoever it was that he went with? You know, I would imagine we know a lot about Peter and he's. He has some behavioral characteristics like me, kind of a very aggressive.
Speaker 2:You know, I would imagine we know a lot about Peter and he's. He has some behavioral characteristics like me, kind of a very aggressive. You know, from time to time. I don't think he put him with another like hard charging leader. As I look at the apostle John, the kindness of the, maybe he went out with the apostle John slightly more introverted, maybe more passive and introspective thinking before he speaks. I wonder about that. I don't think he sent two of the exact same personality set, behavioral, set on mission. They need one another. The pastor who's a hard charger needs the math guy. So if Jesus were to send us out Jim, I'd need a partner like you, with a different skill set. Anything more to add about diversity of the sending.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's funny because that complementary skill set, right. And so for me, in my role as chief executive officer, that responsibility to build a team. And you know you don't build a team of of, yes, people, it you do not want to build that team, that's just going to bring you the group think. Or, you know, whatever you say, boss, you've got to bring in those, those that are going to think outside, who are going to be willing to challenge you. That will be challenged back, but they'll listen and they'll engage so that at the end you get to a better result. I go back to Proverbs, you know 27, 17, all the time.
Speaker 3:Iron sharpening iron right, and that is a combative process, right, it's not gentle. Iron sharpening iron is not a gentle process. There's heat, there's friction, but at the end you have that finer point. And so you know I'm not inviting in conflict. That's not the point. That you know that you're going and looking for the conflict, but you have to understand that constructive conflict. Going and looking for the conflict, but you have to understand that constructive conflict, the constructive disagreement, challenging each other and having the humility to listen to what you're being told in response. It's not a soft process to be sharpened so good, I'm thinking about Adam and Eve.
Speaker 2:Why did God say he looked at Adam that it was not good that he was alone? I think the primary thing we think about is wow, loneliness. I can't imagine like being on planet Earth all by myself. We're communal beings, procreation that doesn't happen on your own. And then three, though I think the piece that we don't maybe give enough time to, which is what you're drawing out, is how she was called to be his kind adversary, one who was there, who saw all of him but also provided the appropriate response. When you're too hard, I can provide. When you're too frank, I can be appropriately diplomatic. I compliment you, and I think let's get into gender here just a bit. I think our teams in our churches, leadership teams, be it pastor with people, pastor with elders, et cetera, I need gender diversity on any functional team. Um, and I have a number of reasons why, but I'd love to get your take on on gender diversity on leadership teams.
Speaker 3:Well, um, I mean just just backing up. Obviously, God created us different and and you know you can't talk about that today, Right, but it's a reality.
Speaker 3:And the differences between male and female are something we celebrate because it's a gift from God. Our differences and I think about you know, as you're talking, you know how my wife helps hold up a mirror and reminds me, how you know I can be pretty intense and I can be, you know, pretty bold and for a lot of people it comes off in a way that I don't intend it to and I give offense and you know she gently reminds me and sometimes that gentle is not quite so gentle. You know it's a matter of what are you doing, but those are the things that you need to have, that you need to have, I think about that, that the perspective then that comes out of you know, whether it be a gender, whether all sorts of different kinds of diversity, just getting the different perspectives, guys will tend to view things the same way. Guys will often kind of heard and act the same way.
Speaker 3:And as you think about carrying out the ministry and how are you going to do this effectively, you know half of who you're serving are, you know, are female and unless you have that female perspective coming to it, you know, I know I'm going to miss the mark.
Speaker 3:To miss the mark, I'm going to miss the mark in terms of how I might talk about the culture, how I may refer to things just around the workplace, understanding that, you know, not everybody walks in the door the same. You know the same way I do, thinking the same way I do. Right, and just to be reminded that if I'm going to be effective with my messaging, if I'm going to be effective in painting pictures of where I want to go as an organization, I have to be, I have to be aware of how people are going to be interpreting that. You know the language or style or tone, and I do this because the responsibility is on me as the communicator, right, the responsibility is on me as a leader to say these things and do these things in a way that will be properly interpreted. It's not up to them to try to understand me. I have to make sure I'm communicating, I'm setting things up in a way that they're going to be receptive to that message.
Speaker 2:Amen, I totally agree with that. To kind of summarize what I hear you saying, and I think I'd have to dust off some research on gender diversity but in general, women are more agreeable and more open to diverse ideas. So have you thought about this? I see this. But generally, especially if they're around stronger male leaders, unless they're invited to say it, they're probably not going to say counter. I just do a lot of the detail work. What I've found if the male leader doesn't intentionally invite them in to the conversation, resentment will grow because they'll have seen a number of different things.
Speaker 2:And this is a scene in the home, to be sure, his shadow side, his blind side, and and she wants him to know I'm painting with a very broad brush here she wants him to know that if he takes off his mask and lets her and the team know family team, whatever no, hey, I don't really. I don't. This is a humble journey, right? I don't really know the right next step. Would you pray for me, dream with me, help, help find the solution to this? And again, in my experience she's got a number of really, really creative solutions. And yet where the male voice to land this plane, where the male voice is needed is to say, okay, we've heard. We've heard all of these things. Now my courage has been kind of buoyed. I know I'm not alone. This is the right next thing. I can see it now. And reason wins the day. And guess what you've just done, brother. She's on your team man, she is all in, she's been heard, she's been seen, her ideas have been assessed. She's grateful that now the decision has been made Boom, let's go. God has made us so unique as male and female, and we must lean into the strengths of our individual. God is very, very creative in how he made us to complement one another, so so well. Anything more to add to that as we land the gender?
Speaker 2:I haven't gone deep and I wasn't even planning on going deep in that conversation, but I think it's. I think it's helpful in a synod where you've got a lot of OK, all right, I'm just going to say now you're probably following on the heels of of the Jerry Kishnick interview that I had at the Council of Presidents meeting. I've never been, probably will not be invited anytime soon, and that's okay. I don't know that there are many women in that room, as big time strategic decisions are made. There may be, but all of our presidents are men, all of our vice presidents are men. President Harrison is a guy that maybe if there were women there in that room, things would be a little bit different. A number of our teams we're just so to land that point. We're just a very male-dominated leadership organization in the LCMS as gender. But you, with Concordia Plan Services, you've got a lot of freedom, don't you, jim? To build very gender diverse teams, right?
Speaker 3:Well, you know I do and you know we're talking apples and oranges right in terms of the things that are going on here, and you know how leadership you know comes to be within the church body. So when I'm operating now with Concordia Plant Services, it's a completely different structure. So I'm going to stay away from the other one because obviously you know that's a bigger thing and above my pay grade because I'm just an actuary, but within the work of CPS in support of the church. Absolutely because, frankly, what I'm looking for is top talent and we're blessed here within CPS, one of the members of our team, our general counsel, is one of the top church plan attorneys in the in the entire country. Okay, and she'll. She'll say to me well, no, I'm not and I'm like.
Speaker 3:Well, name anybody better. And she'll say Danny Miller. And for anybody who does the, the, the, the lookup, on this, danny Miller's the top, no doubt about it. But you know, danny has Ann on speed dial and they talk regularly and she's number two, if not number three, and we're blessed to have have her in here. And and and you know, frankly, tim, I don't care, you know, if she's a woman bringing that resume, I don't care if it's a man, I just want top talent here on the team and and it's neither you know, something that's going to get you in the door or prevent you from coming in the door and then carrying that full weight then as a member of our executive team and general counsel for a significant financial services organization and also serving as secretary of the Church Alliance, which puts her at the forefront of a lot of our lobbying and legislative strategies on Capitol Hill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, amen. So what I just said around the gender conversation, I'm staying at 30,000 feet here because there are some men that have more of the agreeable tendency and some women that are very, very decisive, to be sure, and a lot of those should be in executive positions for sure. So let's talk about results. One of your key ideas as a leader we're called to deliver results. You say we are compelled to pursue opportunities to get more things done more quickly and with better results for our stakeholders. This is a key charge. If you're running an organization like Concordia Planned Services, show me the results sir, show me how the pension is going to be there when I get retirement.
Speaker 2:The results actually matter, so go deeper into delivering results, jim.
Speaker 3:Well, I think you begin structurally right. So we have a church body, there's a board of directors and they have a lot of things on their plate, so they appoint a board of directors for Concordia Plain Services, run these employee benefit programs, right, and? And so then the board collectively hires one person and it happens to be me today, right, and then they give me a resource, they give me a budget, go and do these, these things. But it's not about activities, it's not about old being busy. You know they're coming back and saying, no, you need to show us the results, and, and I've got a team that's results oriented, their outcomes oriented. Um, you know, this is exciting, and so there can be a philosophical, you know, debate on how. What should a retirement program be? Should it be defined benefit, should it be defined contribution, all this and that. But this is what we have, this is what the church set up, and now we got to run this thing with excellence. I need to have on my team people who understand how to invest $5 billion.
Speaker 3:Come on Right, and investment means you go and you take it to the market and you take on risk, right, you? You, not only are we talking about, you know, typical stocks and bonds, but we're in private equity, we're in real asset buckets and and we need results. That investment portfolio has to go to work for us. You know why do we have this benefit program to begin with? Well, we want to make sure that our church workers are taken care of, which means, you know, our job here is to make sure we're running this in a way that those benefits are going to get paid. And, by the way, it's my retirement program too, right? So, believe me, if you have a passion for making sure that your retirement benefits there me too, you know, but at the end of the day, that's what we have to deliver.
Speaker 3:When we flip over to a health plan, right, People want to put us in a health insurance bucket and costs and this, and that we can go to outcomes. We, absolutely. I can demonstrate and this is now bringing the actuary out, you know, anybody who wants to sit through the math, I'll go through the math we're delivering better results for less dollars, right? Can you find cheaper insurance? Absolutely, you can. Right. It's like in a property casualty game, right, you can go buy cheaper insurance. I feel like the Mayhem commercial and then when something bad happens, you go. Well, you know, I didn't have exactly what I. You know what I thought I had, Right. So we want to make sure that our workers are taken care of and oh, by the way, we can see measurable, measurable improvements in the overall health status of LCMS workers. Right, Because they're in our plan for a long period of time and we put these health and wellness initiatives in place and we're moving the needle measurably in terms of decreasing the risk factors. Right, and that's part of the beauty of walking together is that we can invest in these programs over a long haul and our year over year increases are lower than the market, right, so we're beating trend and we're getting church workers healthier.
Speaker 3:That's why I believe we're walking together, you know, as ascended to take care of one another, and we can point to this and say look at what we're doing here and we are, in fact, better together. When you take our, you know, however, you want to call it 4,000, 6,000 different ministries and put them together, we can go to the market and negotiate with the biggest companies, you know the biggest companies here in the country. We can go in national accounts and we can, you know, really demand the products and services that you would never get, the products and services that you would never get, you know. So, even though you're a large church there you know Christ Greenfield you could never walk in the doors that we walk in.
Speaker 3:This isn't about me. Jim is so great he gets to walk through the doors. No, when we go through those doors, we're going through together. I'm bringing Tim and I'm bringing everybody else to the door and the financial services industry says, hey, we want to partner with you collectively. And there's great power when, in fact, we walk together and you know, I know this is not, you know, purely theological, but, boy, we can measure how, in fact, we are better together as a church body by doing these things, by doing these things in a coordinated fashion and pooling the resources.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a stewardship issue, right, jim? Oh yeah, you talk about this a lot in your presentation. I mean your partnership with Blue Cross, cigna, et cetera. The power of partnership is very, very much why Concordia plans can remain as high quality and as financially accessible. And I know you're not looking, this isn't necessarily a CPS kind of podcast per se, but you were very responsive to us and coming back on board from a healthcare perspective recently.
Speaker 2:So if I got any kind of large church pastors who are listening and have said we're out, you guys are ready to play and what you are providing for our workers is a high, high benefit. I just had a bridge that was put in. The dental coverage is fantastic. It was very, very painful, by the way, but I really appreciated that. You guys were there for us in that and it really is the power of working together and all churches of all sizes coming together with CPS, the resources that are there. I mean our pension. This is one of the reasons why a lot of pastors don't like to have too provocative of conversations about health, because we're worried about a church split, which is not going to happen, and the CPS not being around for us in our pension, which is extraordinary. Say a little bit more about the power of partnership though, who you're working with and how the health and the pension benefits can be so, so robust.
Speaker 3:So you know, really a lot of what we do is not innovative. We adapt what the outside world's doing right, and so if you're going to look at our structures, we're going to be a lot more like what corporate America does. But think about a Fortune 500 company that has complete control. Denominations are able to create church plans and operate under federal law, and we get to operate like we're a single employer, even though we are technically many different entities. We get this regulatory space that keeps us from being an insurance company, but we really get to act like we're a single entity. So that really now says for us, in our denomination which, by the way, other denominations have mandates that their congregations have to participate we don't have mandates. Frankly, I'd rather not have mandates because I think competition makes you better.
Speaker 1:It's freedom and it's because I think competition makes you better in this.
Speaker 3:It's freedom, but it causes me to continue to be better, you know, as a leader and CPS, to be better as an organization. But we really are just doing that same thing that corporate America is doing and say, hey, aggregate resources here have this larger pool. Insurance companies make money off of taking risk. Right, that's how they make money, that's their product. They take on risk and they get compensated for taking risk. Right, because you know life insurance, you think you might pass away early, right? So you want to transfer that risk to the insurance company. And the insurance company says, okay, we'll take that risk, but we're going to charge you a premium, right? So we know we're going to pay that claim sometime because you will die and we have expenses and we have to have profit and all of that.
Speaker 3:Insurance companies make money off risk. That's what they do. So we step back and say you know, we don't need an insurance company to cover the risk. We're big enough, we can self-insure it, we'll take care of each other. And right there, you take a big amount of dollars out of the system. Insurance companies use agents and brokers to go out and sell the business. Right, we don't have agents, we don't have brokers. We're not paying for them. Nothing wrong with that. In that business, there's more expense. We pull out of the system, right. So we have this great expense advantage which, yes, health benefits are expensive. It isn't this Concordia plans issue, it's a national crisis. But we can absolutely be returning more back, more bang for the buck, literally, you know, in terms of benefits provided you know to make sure that your bridge but other, you know really the serious, catastrophic things that you know that people see in life, that those things are taken care of and we can be more efficient, more effective and turn more dollars back over into the, you know, into the pockets of our workers.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. So tell us a little bit about why you wrote the book and we're coming down the homestretch and what are two other kind of main points in the book. Give us the why, though. First Jim.
Speaker 3:Well, I had a number of people say hey for a period of time tell me, I need to write a book, and I just never knew what I would really have to say. And what I've learned through this process is it's really the story about what God's done through me through my leadership journey, and that's a story because if he's done this through me, he can do it through anybody, right? It's just he's just called me to do this particular thing at this particular time. I want to be an encouragement to others. It's one of the things I say in the book leadership journeys are personal. There's no, you know, do these 10 things and you're going to be an effective leader. It just doesn't exist. So I want to, I want to be an example, I want to be an encouragement to others.
Speaker 3:The other thing and this wasn't intent, but I realized has happened here is you know, right now, concordia Publishing House is doing a variety of different books in leadership, and I believe I'm the first lay author in this space and I really feel honored to get a lay voice into this leadership dialogue right now, and so I'm just very appreciative to Jonathan Schultz and the entire CPH team that they would allow me to you know. Come in and be a voice, because one of our parts of our rich Lutheran LCMS heritage is the act of layman and the great value that they bring you know at the national level, but also at every one of our congregations.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Laymen and women.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, priesthood of all believers, and shout out to Concordia Publishing House and the innovative work I've been honored to be at the table on a number of those creative opportunities moving forward to highlight what is simply first article realities, the way God made things to work, and you've listed a number of those here. Partnership is helpful. There's deep theological meaning behind all of this and results. Two of the key points so far are results actually matter, and working in partnership should produce respective results for various beneficiaries, and I'm honored to be one of those beneficiaries of Concordia Plan Services. So one or two other points that are like wow, this was something I really, really wanted to drive home in the book and the reason. You know you want to keep some things in intrigue because we want people to pick up that book in May, jim, to be sure. So any other points, though, about leading by faith.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things maybe I'll do is just to tell you a little bit about the structure of the book. What I do at the beginning of the book, the first few chapters, is taking on what I you know sort of leadership myths, you know things that I thought were true, that people may in general think are true, that just in fact are not true. And so let's go after some of those myths. In the first chapter of the book, for example, I go after a quote from Colin Powell. So here's the entry, get the book and you can read more. But I don't think it's really wise for a first time author to go after such a such a all right, I love it.
Speaker 3:Well, he has a. He has a quote about the leader must always be looking out the front windshield, and and you know, one of the things I want to do is break that down a little bit and say you know, that's just not reality, because you can't see what's around the corner. And and and, honestly, if I, as a leader, think I can, I'm putting myself in the place of God, right, and so I lead by faith, not by sight, because I don't know what's around the corner. But I continue to go forward, um, trusting in him, because he knows what's around the corner and it's in, it's in his hands. And if I have this idea that I'm looking out the windshield and I have all the answers, I've just put myself in the place of God. And so, on the one hand, it sounds very inspirational, but it really is actually pretty bad theology. And so, for a Christian leader, I'm thinking, no, I don't think that's how we want to think about leadership.
Speaker 2:And you're not saying that leaders should not have vision per se. What I hear you saying is leaders should remain very, very humble about what that vision is. And unless God builds it, unless God grows it, unless God speaks and works and moves, we're going to be at a very, very difficult spot and pride goes before the fall. To be sure, I think we all want to have this kind of king of the hill and I'm charging. You know that kind of mentality. Well, the style of Jesus is I'm behind, actually, I'm lifting up, I'm releasing, and it's the body of Christ. Sure, I may have a vision, but unless it's articulated, centered in the word of God, the mission of God, and articulated in community, it's not going to be a very compelling vision. That's going to last very long, to be sure.
Speaker 3:So anything else?
Speaker 2:I think that's very, very compelling. Anything else?
Speaker 3:I also talk about the role of the side windows and the rear window, right? So anything else? Sure, you can go out to Amazon and pre-order the book. Now. Just do a. You know, just type in Sanft S, a, nt, and it should pop it up. You can pre-order, or on the 28th it'll be available from Concordia Publishing House so you can get the rest of the story. But thank you for the opportunity to come in here and talk about it. I love talking about the leadership principles. I'd be glad to come back here at any time. Or, you know, talk to any of your groups. If any of the listeners would, you know, like for me to come. And you know, talk, talk to your group. You know I'd be honored to do so.
Speaker 2:So good. I highly encourage you to take Jim up on that offer. If they want to reach out to you and Concordia plans, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Easy spot. Right now I'm working on my personal website, so it's not ready quite yet. So you can do jimsanft at concordiaplansorg.
Speaker 2:Amen. This is lead time. We promise to have continual leadership, jesus-centered, yes, future-focused but hope-filled. Jesus is ahead of us, he's King and Lord, he is over all of these things and so we don't have to be afraid. We can have the humility to partner, we can have the humility to say there's some results and we're all going to work together to get toward those respective Jesus centered results. And frankly, jim, I am grateful to be a part of a church body that has the foresight and the insight to say, hey, we need to take care of our workers, hey, we need to take care of our workers. We could have gone off on church worker health that you were kind of dabbling, it seems like. Since I brought it up, it seems like church worker health isn't improving.
Speaker 3:You're seeing some of that. No, yeah, no For those who participate in our programs and yeah, maybe this is another episode. Tim but for those who participate in our programs, we see a measurable difference in their health and wellness.
Speaker 2:So take advantage of Concordia Plan Services. It's a good day. Go make it a great day by the power of the Spirit and the Word. And, jim, you are a gift to the church man. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Tim, you've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.