Are Churches Businesses? | Hot Topic Friday with Candice Hilse

Is your local church functioning with the finesse of a Fortune 500 company? Discover why Candice and I believe that embracing business-like efficiency isn't just practical—it's essential for ministries to thrive. In a provocative conversation, we delve into the symbiotic relationship between spiritual missions and financial acumen. With Jesus's own ministry as our prime example, we expose the parallels between apostolic prudence and the demands of modern church management. We argue that a church, akin to a family-run entity, thrives when it adopts sound fiscal habits, ensuring it remains a beacon of service and community support.

Balancing the spontaneous with the systematic is as crucial in ministry as it is in any successful enterprise. Candice and I navigate this complex dynamic, dissecting how too much structure or spontaneity can lead to congregational discomfort or disconnection. The discussion illuminates the consequences of policies that rigidify, suggesting instead a model rooted in adaptability and the recognition of individual talents. Reflecting on how Jesus blended both approaches, we encourage church leaders to foster environments that honor the spirit's movement while sustaining organizational productivity, creating a warm, inclusive community.

Finally, a church's liturgy is not immune to the winds of cultural change. We tackle the challenge of preserving tradition while welcoming the new, ensuring that our practices resonate with diverse congregations. We share success stories of ministries that have innovated without sacrificing the gospel's core, and celebrate a board’s bold leadership in action—reaching new milestones of impact while grounded in prayer and faith. Join us for this enlightening journey through the intricacies of church management and leadership, all woven together by the transformative power of living out our faith.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

This is Lead Time.

Speaker 2: 0:10

Hello friends, Welcome to Lead Time. This is a Hot Topics episode and I'm here with my friend, Candice, who's joined us before on Lead Time. Candice, welcome back.

Speaker 3: 0:20

Thanks for having me. It's good to be back.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Thanks for having me. It's good to be back, yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to a fun and exciting chat. Today's theme Hot Topics we're talking about business, Business and church. So, Candice, let's go ahead and get into this. So our first topic is a question Should we think of the local church as a business.

Speaker 3: 0:46

Well, I can tell you, I mean, it's just so open-ended and fun. I can tell you that this is a hot topic. People have very strong opinions about it and you know that in my conversations I get very polarized opinions on this, some anger and some joy. It's one or the other. There's never a middle road. But the interesting thing is, I think we get really bogged down in how we perceive business. So business is, I think, for a lot of people. Your perception of the word decides how you feel about it. So, first of all, how do you look at it? But are you referring to capitalism or are you referring to an organization? Because, if you ask me, jesus had affairs right. He had the affairs that needed to be attended to, the way he ran his ministry, the where they were going. Next, somebody. We know Judas's problem was mismanagement of the money, right. So there's business.

Speaker 3: 1:43

There is business going on there's business in the church.

Speaker 2: 1:46

And I hope.

Speaker 3: 1:47

Smart people are leading it.

Speaker 2: 1:49

I think why the word business might get people triggered in the context of church is maybe the term profit. When we think of business, we think of a profit making venture, and we don't like the idea that the church is out there to make a profit, especially when they're taking offerings and we're encouraging people to be generous, right, the last thing people want to think is oh, this is just a business trying to make a profit, because that's what everybody else is doing every day long and we want the church to be different.

Speaker 3: 2:18

Yeah, and there's, I mean there's a couple of definitions when you look at it. Obviously some of them have to do with financial and fiduciary responsibility, but like dealings or transactions of an economic nature. I hope the church is paying close attention to those. So does the church have business? In my opinion, yes, and does it need to have business? Yes. Should it have smart people running its business? Absolutely, because I think my opinion would be that the business people get a bad taste in their mouth about is where people are unskilled leading the business. So then you don't want business in the church, but the reason you don't want business in the church is because you've had bad business in the church.

Speaker 3: 3:06

So does the church have business? I absolutely think there's. I mean, there are budgets, there are buildings, there are people to manage.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Accounting software.

Speaker 3: 3:19

Yeah, Please God, let there be accounting software in every church organization. And receipts, lots of receipts.

Speaker 2: 3:24

There's accounts payable. Yes, I was just reflecting. You know, to run our organization, you know we probably need, we're probably spending anywhere, depending on the season, quarter of a million a half a million dollars a month in expenditures and this is all being run through accounts payable and business credit cards. And so all of the hallmarks that you would see of a business accounting software, budgets, accounts payable, balance sheets, income statement you know we don't call them income statements, we call them statements of activity.

Speaker 3: 4:02

Right. What's going on where the money's going Right?

Speaker 2: 4:04

right, right, right, and you have to balance budgets and you have to do things like manage liquidity, and then you can actually kind of take a step back and say, well, if the church is, let's just say, a type, you know, let's be very charitable and say it's a type of business. What type of business is it? What are they in the business of?

Speaker 1: 4:25

right right.

Speaker 2: 4:27

The church has, has a business. It is a venture to achieve a certain business outcome. The business, let's just call it the work of the church, the business, what we're busying, busying ourselves with, is the care of souls, the gospel right. So our business is the gospel. That's really what it boils down to, and it is a little different than a typical business in that I like to call it a family business.

Speaker 3: 4:55

I love that we're in the family business.

Speaker 2: 4:56

We are here to grow God's family.

Speaker 3: 4:58

We're here to grow the complications of a family business. So that's why I think there's such a perception that I don't want that. I don't want that, but on the same side, the same token. If you want it to be more missional, so you hate the word business or you're uncomfortable with the word business. Churches are more missional, more outreach oriented and more giving when they have streamlined, successful and smart business functions. So the churches that are able to give the most, the ones that receive the accreditations from the financial groups, the ones that, when you reach into the back door of nonprofit and look at ministries, the ones that people who don't know the faith go after and engage with from the outside, are the ones that look most financially responsible. So a church that is has those things in order is also more likely to reach people, because the people who are cynical, who do research, go this church is more financially responsible because they manage their funds well.

Speaker 3: 5:58

So it's it's a very delicate balance, but I think, if we look at scripture, everything is supposed to be done with delicate balance, right? So I think it's something you can do a disservice by shutting down business in the church and then you're actually less able to give when a demand happens and you know, I always look back at 2020 as that opportunity what churches were prepared to serve and pour out in every way, shape or form they could, and what churches were freaking out that people weren't going to be in the building to potentially give because they have not planned for the times when they just need to open their coffers and pour out and give almost painfully, to serve their communities in need. So that's just an example I always think about. But, yeah, I think you can't have a healthy church without using not to mention using the gifts of those people that are gifted in business. So we say that certain gifts are usable to the church and certain are not. We're all parts of the body.

Speaker 2: 7:00

Amen. Yeah, I never thought when I was going to college, getting a finance degree, learning how to make spreadsheets and forecasts and budgets and all that kind of stuff, that I would be using that in a church. Yeah, it turns out that that's that was my calling. God had been preparing me for that. Desperately, desperately needed a business person that could lean into this and actually, kind of like, make smart business decisions.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Right.

Speaker 2: 7:28

And actually evaluate how the entity is either healthy or unhealthy in certain financial ways Right.

Speaker 3: 7:35

Yeah, and then be able to prescribe certain things and care better, and your mission teams can care better because they know that that's secure.

Speaker 2: 7:43

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 7:44

That's important.

Speaker 2: 7:46

It's great stuff. So I think you and I agree the church is a let's just call it a type of business.

Speaker 3: 7:52

It is not your organization because people get so turned off by the word. But the truth is it is. It's got lots of economic function and a lot of them are beneficial to the communities they're in.

Speaker 2: 8:03

And it's a corporation, by the way. I mean, I don't know, most churches that I've ever seen are formed as non-profit religious corporations, right, yeah, and that means there's governance, that means, like we said, all the things that go along with that. And you know, depending on what types of activities you get into, you may be filing taxes. I know we file payroll taxes.

Speaker 3: 8:23

Right, and you should honestly want an organization that's done those filings and that has oversight that is both governmental and spiritual.

Speaker 2: 8:30

Mm, hmm, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 8:32

That should be a plus Accountability transparency.

Speaker 2: 8:39

I know, like we do financial audits, we hire an outside CPA firm. Yeah, we want people to know that the people handling the money, making money decisions, are doing so in a very transparent, accountable, fiduciary you accountable, serving as fiduciaries of the organization. And that should hopefully create order and peace in the organization that we don't have to worry about chaos, right. Ultimately, all these rules that we're putting in place, I like to say we debate rules not for the rules themselves, but because we need to create space for the gospel Right.

Speaker 3: 9:10

Yeah Well, and I you know, I like to remind people too. There are things like um, is it the EFCCA that does financial filings with churches? There's literally organizations that make sure they're financially sound, but the organizations that have those certifications spend money on financial management because that audit is expensive and I think only 2% of churches nationwide are able to meet that certification requirement. So you can talk about not liking business in the church, but I can tell you that I, um, I think it's very smart. It's smart for people who are non-church to see those certifications when they're kind of exploring their faith too, because if there's a lack of trust that's ever been established, it says we're trying to do this better.

Speaker 2: 10:00

So let's hit. Our next topic is still related to the theme of business. Let's do it. What happens when a ministry decides to do everything organically Because I think that's at the heart of this conversation here Instead of systemically or instead of by policy? Let's say and we'll just start there what happens? Are there circumstances where that's preferable Because I think there are people that are advocating for that hey, the Holy Spirit's in charge. We just let the Holy Spirit decide everything. We don't need to come up with any rules. We don't have to maybe even come up with any plans. Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 10:38

Let's just see how Sunday goes.

Speaker 2: 10:39

Jack, really yeah let's just see how it goes. And you know what? I love people like that. I absolutely adore people like that. I think they're wonderful.

Speaker 3: 10:49

You need them in your life.

Speaker 2: 10:50

Yep.

Speaker 3: 10:51

I bet you've got these nice little boxes built. You need those people that are like let's see what Holy Spirit says today. Yep.

Speaker 2: 10:59

So let's talk about there. Let's kind of break it apart a little bit. Are there circumstances where you think it might be preferable to have that approach, where that specific type of approach is preferable for something?

Speaker 3: 11:16

Oh, absolutely. I think actually in a lot of pastoral care it's really important you lean into that and then there not be a. Here's the exact scripture you must read on the hospital visit. Do you know what I mean? So if you have a healthy prayer life and you're leaning into all the methodology that comes with meditation in a relationship, with leaning into God, like you're growing in your faith, you have to leave room. I like to say we build structure and leave room for the Holy Spirit to interrupt it.

Speaker 3: 11:43

The applications come in care a lot where people need things that are sometimes out of the ordinary. Or you've got to stop the schedule of your day to pray with someone, and that's a big part of the church. You you as an executive director, you have business meetings, you have reports to, you, have spreadsheets to do, but if someone walked into the building and their life was falling apart and you were the person that encountered them and they needed time and they needed prayer or they needed a few minutes of your care, that absolutely should take precedence. And that's the difference of church versus something going on in a secular industry is that we have to give pause to allow those movements. We have to give pause to allow those movements of faith to happen in the middle of our days, no matter what we're doing, and I think that's something that you can lose balance on, where you're carrying someone's burden instead of caring for them, and that's not healthy.

Speaker 3: 12:44

But you can also lose sight of productivity and planning over the care piece too, and I think that is something that when I walk into a church, I'm always looking at how their team handles those things, because they happen all day long, especially on Sundays. Is the team so focused on what's being produced that they can engage with someone that's in the building, that is scared about their first time walking into a church building or uncomfortable because they know no one or their marriage has fallen apart that week and they just need to be seen? Is a ministry team equipped and in the right headspace to see that person and be more organic in the moment? Or are they too scheduled and too afraid of kind of stepping out of the meeting they've scheduled between experiences or services or whatever term you use? You know what does that look like and if, as long as we are allowing that space for that, I think those are opportunities that have to be extremely organic.

Speaker 2: 13:48

Let's almost think of the word organic as adaptive.

Speaker 3: 13:52

Yes, that's such a great way to look at it.

Speaker 2: 13:54

Right. So where does it make? Where? Is it a blessing for there to be like a high level of adaptiveness? I can think of a missionary going into a place where the culture is radically different than what they grew up in. They're going to have to be adaptive.

Speaker 3: 14:10

Right, you're well, and I mean especially with families a kid who is just coming in and has different needs and needs to be removed from the typical classroom environment and just given some one-on-one time. We have to do that in our kids' ministries all the time. They are not the same and for them to grow in their faith and for their families to feel connected to community, we have to provide certain levels of care and certain accommodations. Now, it doesn't mean everybody gets their own teacher, their own classroom, their own volunteer, but it does mean we see the needs and try to meet those needs. I think one thing you just pointed out is if you're not looking at the giftings and the strengths of your people as far as organic versus systems, then you're also missing an opportunity to leverage those people in the church. So there are different roles that require different needs.

Speaker 3: 15:03

You know, uh, the prayer team, for example, at the church where I serve. They are extremely organic, like a meeting on time not going to happen with the protein, but like if you give them, if we give them a space where they can come and like walk the building and pray over it, or if they want to have a prayer meeting and they're not demanding of the production team. Maybe the production team's there and then let's. They can leave and let them go, like you do. Those are times when it's extremely organic, but they're in a space where we're facilitating that and allowing them to lean into what they're already gifted to do. So I think, if you are investing the time to understand who your people are and making sure that they're being paired with service opportunities that they both love but are also gifted enough to do um or gifted in that area, that that helps as a community people function with their differences.

Speaker 3: 16:00

Now, I can also think about a time when I had a baby as a new mom and we were attending Sunday and the worship leader was amazing, like so talented but there wasn't great like leadership structure with the lead pastor and so he, we would be there and like, all right, new mom brain, I'm like the toddler has to nap. I have a feeding coming up right after this worship time. Yeah, so 20 extra minutes for worship doesn't bring me to tears, for a spiritual confrontation, if you know what I mean. Like I'm crying for different reasons.

Speaker 3: 16:35

For other reasons, my afternoon is about to be a freaking nightmare. So, that's where organic and systematic have to collide and you've got to leverage those things. But I had that experience and I remember this worship leader hearing him talk about how it's so good to just like feel it in the moment and I'm like except for every mom in the room, that's like now time starts in 10.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Exactly, exactly yeah. If you're single and you got no commitments. Great, let's do it.

Speaker 3: 17:05

Right, yeah, could we just like dismiss families and then everyone who's like here to just vibe out can stay.

Speaker 3: 17:13

But I but I think that's a part of it too is like you've got to find that balance, because people also need to know what to expect when they commit to something you know if you commit to go to a dinner party, you kind of know what time you need to leave and get home, Like you go to work, kind of knowing the schedule of your day. So to say, on Sunday you're not great at practicing your faith If you aren't okay to stay for eight hours, even though we plan for one or 90 minutes. That's a lot to put on someone and it also can foster an environment of guilt and shame.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Yeah. So what happens then when that structure is not there in the church? Let's just say they've leaned into the organic, they're nailing adaptive, they're very organic. The structure may be missing quite a bit. What happens? What can we expect to happen in that type of ministry context?

Speaker 3: 18:10

I think it will be hard for families to engage in community. You know kids are very routine based and families for trust to leave their children with you need to know what they're going to expect. I always tell people, like, think about the time you went to like the wedding and you were the first, if you've ever been the first person to a wedding reception and you walk into the room and it's empty, or the first person to like a gala dinner, like, and you don't know what to do with yourself. You're like, what do I do with my hands? Like that's a weird experience. Right, that's what happens in organic environments.

Speaker 3: 18:42

People are, they need to be told what's next and they need to. They need to know kind of general expectations. That doesn't mean you sing the same song, that doesn't mean the sermon's the same every week, but that does mean that they can come in kind of knowing culturally. I chose this place because this community feels comfortable for me and I know my kids are going to have this type of experience. And I think sometimes that's where it's hard for people to engage is things that are too systematized, feel not communal, like they don't feel personal, and things that are too organic. They don't know where to get on the train. Right, they're like right.

Speaker 1: 19:28

Well what's next for me and is there?

Speaker 2: 19:31

even an like? Are people even thinking about what's next? So I'm just trying to think of an example. Let's say somebody signs up to be a volunteer, to be a greeter. Yeah, right, they show up on Sunday and the staff says no, I don't need you as a greeter, I need you working in Sunday school. Yeah, no, it's not a good experience for anybody.

Speaker 3: 19:48

I can promise you the greeter did not sign up to serve in toddlers.

Speaker 2: 19:51

That's not what I signed up for, yeah. Well, that's what we need to adapt.

Speaker 3: 19:55

I was like no, yeah, or take that super personal greeter and we're like, we trust you so we want you to be on the count team. Like we want to put you in a locked room, or in the stream room or in production in the dark, where you're away from people like do you know? What I mean. Like that's or throw somebody on a mixing board and just figure it out. The knobs do stuff figure it out right.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Don't play drums, wing it. That's organic. Yeah, it can be chaotic. It can really destroy people's experiences. Yeah, um, you know people, people that like freedom and no boundaries and may love it. So it may be a ministry for a very, very narrow segment of society. That's awesome for them and miserable for everybody else, I think.

Speaker 3: 20:41

Well, and you know I always love to go back and go like, well, what did Jesus do? So we saw Jesus have a very set schedule, like as far as he would, yeah, yeah, teaching time, he had meditation time, he had time for rest and feasting, but then he's in the crowd on the way to something else and it's let the children come to me or I see this person and they need to be healed, right? So it was the perfect balance of these two tensions.

Speaker 3: 21:07

Yet we tried plans and he adapted yeah, but in the we try to form these two camps for everything you know, right, um, but I always like to look back at him. I'm like he did it with excellence, so why wouldn't we try for that?

Speaker 2: 21:20

amen. So, uh, ultimately, balance is key, but what happens when the balance is not there in the other direction? So let's say you're systemic and we've got policies and what happens is sometimes we can you know, honestly, as much as I like it, you can sometimes make policies and systems into an idol, right oh?

Speaker 3: 21:45

you're a hundred percent right. I think that's where the negativity about business in the church actually roots from. A lot is when you become too systematic as an organization and it starts to feel another. Another word that's negative and really shouldn't be as corporate. The church shouldn't be corporate, but corporate is a word that you hear used kind of as a slam these days, word that you hear used kind of as a slam these days, and that is where those negative connotations of things like business and corporate in the church come in, is it becomes.

Speaker 3: 22:18

This is the policy when we should know that in ministry there is no rule. There are general, for example, benevolence. There's examples when we are able to pour out and care for someone, and then there are other times when it's there, there's extenuating circumstances that we are able to pair someone with other resources, or that's not something that that the church is prepared to dig into. So there, you know, there there are just intangibles that require a balance of both, and I think offense is a big part of being too systematic as a church, because they come in and they don't get the care they expect and it feels just like their workplace.

Speaker 2: 23:02

And we're challenged to be set apart. Yeah, I'll tell you like something we're struggling with right now, like how do we struggle with being overly, overly structured, being adaptive? Uh, I wouldn't have thought about it, but pets in church. I'm bringing your pets to church that was recently.

Speaker 2: 23:19

That has recently come up here as well yeah, so, um, we're multi-campus and um, at the at the big campus here, gilbert, we have a school and bringing your dog to school during a school day is no-go, and we've actually had instances where kids have been bit by the nicest dog in the world. But when you get mobbed by a bunch of kids, you know not so good.

Speaker 3: 23:45

This is new. I have not heard of this happening in school.

Speaker 2: 23:49

So we've had to have like a very strict no dog rule and then that kind of starts spilling over into what we're doing on Sunday.

Speaker 3: 23:55

And we're not talking about like service animals.

Speaker 2: 23:57

We're talking about like no, not service, Of course service animals are always welcome Right, right or just you know, my golden retriever.

Speaker 3: 24:03

I'm sorry, this is so funny, I know.

Speaker 2: 24:09

And then you go to Queen Valley. You know Queen Valley is a retirement community and people in that phase of doesn't need to go everywhere. This is happening in my life, yeah, yeah. So that's a struggle. You can make a case, a policy reason, that you know animals can be disruptive in a worship service, and you can also make a case saying, hey, you know, saying don't bring your kid Pet is like saying don't bring your children, right, and so that's, that's a struggle and churches have to lean into it. It can be dang, because I've talked to people and it's that's exactly what's going on in their heads you know, I'm not saying that's what it is.

Speaker 2: 25:02

I'm saying that's what it feels like right um, I get that.

Speaker 3: 25:06

Uh, yeah, I think that's. There's another thing with systematic and organic that you just kind of touched on with that, and that is we can't be everything to everyone as one church.

Speaker 2: 25:15

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:16

There's a reason. We have different churches and I think communities approach different things, but I think there are a lot of churches in the growth perspective struggling to say no to certain things or struggling to say this is what we're best at and we're not going to. We're not, we can't do everything. I think there are churches that struggle with identity when they struggle with the balance of systematic versus organic and we put our identity in our systems. Sometimes what was that jack?

Speaker 2: 25:43

we put our identity in our system. Sometimes yeah, 100 um, that that is the case. Like you know, in my denominational context there's an argument about liturgy, right, yeah, um, liturgy has to be done a certain way. That's how I did it, that's how my grandparents did it. If you don't do it that way, it's not biblical, it's like well, I don't see that in the bible, but you know well, you might as well be telling them this is so cool.

Speaker 3: 26:06

I think liturgy is coming up across denominations, right now, because people are becoming super, super popular. Yeah, but there is it isn't in the bible that we do it this way and we do it on this day and we do it in this manner right the bible simply says, though, that the, the traditions are healthy because they help us remember, like scripturally. That's what we see. There were feast days because it helped us remember, right?

Speaker 2: 26:29

yeah no, we are we are proudly a liturgical church, but we adapt liturgy to the environment. So, as an example, I think that's great. Super, super traditional. Right out of the hymnal right you go across our courtyard to a different worship space. It's still liturgical, but it's a band, it's a stage and all the things that you might think of in like a Lutheran liturgy are all there, but it's done in a different context, it's presented a little bit contextually different. And then you know, starting this summer we're starting a cowboy church in Alpine Arizona.

Speaker 3: 27:05

And it's going to be a liturgical church, but it's going to be yeah, it's going to be radically different in its you know contextualization.

Speaker 2: 27:12

So I think that's ultimately what boils down to is yes, structure, you know um policy adaptive if you can, if you can embrace all of those things you know you can. That's where you can start to be. What, uh, I think paul said when he said being all things to all people? It was never about compromising the gospel. It's never about um affirming things that by you know, scripture never things to all people.

Speaker 2: 27:34

It was never about compromising the gospel. It's never about affirming things that, by you know, scripture never meant to be affirmed. It's about saying we can take this and we can adapt it to different cultures. We can adapt it to and actually honor some of the cultural values that we're entering into.

Speaker 3: 27:47

If I could just give one encouragement to anyone who's listening that's struggling with this right now. Or they have a different. I feel like people groups are changing in church communities a lot right now, that there are a lot of new people who have not maybe practiced in their faith their whole lives and they're newer to these experiences. So it's like what do we do? Or they're bringing up topics that haven't been discussed in these communities and I see that a lot discussed in these communities and I see that a lot. The encouragement would be that if they, if God has brought them there to your community and they have an idea, explore it.

Speaker 3: 28:22

It doesn't mean launch it, but explore it with them and look at you know, is this a person who's getting to a place where they're passionate about something and they should be leading it and we should maybe explore that? Or is this something that doesn't really fit in with us and it's not something we should pursue? But we should explore those things when they come in. It's like when I used to get phone calls when I was over missions and they would say well, why don't you have a ministry for this? And my first question became and I taught my team to do this Amazing, that's an amazing idea. Are you feeling led to start this? Because we'll help you in it? But the only time we launched anything was when they were ready to take that step. It's not because you cannot be everything to everyone, but if there are new people coming in with new ideas, explore them.

Speaker 2: 29:11

Yeah, there may be a whole segment of people that may be blessed by this new idea. And it may not occur in the local campus right. Like I said, we're not doing Cowboy Church at Gilbert right, but Alpine, let's do Cowboy Church and we've got a leader and we're going to equip that leader and we're going to make that happen. You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 29:29

Yeah, One of the biggest ministries here is car care and it started as like single moms needing oil changes and now it's been a huge way to reach the impoverished community. Like I can't even count how many people have become engaged in church and faith from just coming for an oil change because they had no resources. And then they found community and found their faith there. But that started with a guy who didn't want to talk to people and didn't know how to serve, but he liked working on cars. Now there's like 30 guys on a Saturday and there's an automotive shop that lets them use their shop when it's closed so they get to use the lift and everything. But there's stuff like that that just didn't really make sense in the initial conversation. That turned into something really cool. So explore it.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Yeah, churches need to have an empowering culture. Yeah, you know, when we think about multiplying disciples, replicating church leaders, we also have to have an open hand in that. And knowing that the next generation of a ministry, something that you launch, can look different than the thing that you that birthed. It Right, right, and the gospel in that context is still the gospel, yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:40

Right, we're entrusted with the gospel light. Right, we can't, we've got to protect the gospel story Like we're entrusted with that to keep it and protect it. But our own stories and the way we live out that walk of that faith we write so that those are the two things that should be delineated right, and I think that's something important to keep in mind when it comes to this.

Speaker 2: 31:05

That's really awesome. Well, we are rounding up getting near the end of time here for this episode. Candice, is there anything you feel like sharing before we wrap up?

Speaker 3: 31:16

I mean, I just think that the balance is key to everything we do. I think, scripturally, that's who we are supposed to be, and so it's an interesting time for the church. But I'm passionate about the balance of there being holy in business and business and holy. And if we could learn to work together with those strengths, man, that's where we're unstoppable.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yeah, maybe another episode to be to explore is what would it look like for business to be more like church? Right?

Speaker 3: 31:46

Well, you know, I love that side.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:49

I just sat in a board meeting this week. They're going to hit 20 million this year and they're praying before every meeting and it's just that's awesome. They're as bold as they come. It's really cool. So I'd love to talk about that, but thank you for having me. This is always fun.

Speaker 2: 32:04

So, friends, we hope you enjoyed this conversation. This has been Lead Time. It is a beautiful day. Let's make it a fantastic day with our Lord Jesus Christ. Candice, god bless, it's wonderful chatting. Take care, peace out you too. Jack Bye.

Speaker 1: 32:17

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