Discover the unexpected ways small churches are making a huge impact in the world of church planting, as Reverend Dr. Chris Holder joins us to share his wisdom on fostering gospel-centered growth. Through our enlightening conversation, it becomes clear that the size of a congregation doesn't dictate its ability to contribute to new ministries. We delve into the power of collaboration, from networks to mergers, and shine a light on creative strategies that move beyond the traditional, such as planting churches in art galleries and other non-traditional venues. This episode is a call to action for churches to shed the scarcity mindset and embrace innovation in spreading the gospel.
As we navigate the nuances of leadership and formation within smaller congregations, Dr. Holder provides invaluable insights into the balance required between academic theology and hands-on ministry. We address the fears and skepticism prevalent in American Christianity, particularly within the LCMS, about the potential dilution of the Gospel with church growth. Emphasizing the central message of Christ's redemption, Dr. Holder encourages a robust approach to ministry that trusts in the Holy Spirit’s ability to work through our imperfections. Tune in as we explore how a united vision among church leaders can lead to a revitalized church community that's ready to grow and deploy leaders for the kingdom.
Visit uniteleadership.org
Discover the unexpected ways small churches are making a huge impact in the world of church planting, as Reverend Dr. Chris Holder joins us to share his wisdom on fostering gospel-centered growth. Through our enlightening conversation, it becomes clear that the size of a congregation doesn't dictate its ability to contribute to new ministries. We delve into the power of collaboration, from networks to mergers, and shine a light on creative strategies that move beyond the traditional, such as planting churches in art galleries and other non-traditional venues. This episode is a call to action for churches to shed the scarcity mindset and embrace innovation in spreading the gospel.
As we navigate the nuances of leadership and formation within smaller congregations, Dr. Holder provides invaluable insights into the balance required between academic theology and hands-on ministry. We address the fears and skepticism prevalent in American Christianity, particularly within the LCMS, about the potential dilution of the Gospel with church growth. Emphasizing the central message of Christ's redemption, Dr. Holder encourages a robust approach to ministry that trusts in the Holy Spirit’s ability to work through our imperfections. Tune in as we explore how a united vision among church leaders can lead to a revitalized church community that's ready to grow and deploy leaders for the kingdom.
Visit uniteleadership.org
Welcome to Lead Time Hot Topic Friday. Today I get to hang out with Reverend Dr Chris Holder. He's been on a podcast Long Form with me before, but today we're just going to shoot straight. He's a pastor, he's a Un, he's a United Leadership Collective educational partner. He's working closely with Luther House of Study, so some of our conversations will orient there. He has a missional zeal that is just so, so, inspiring. And today we're going to hit three topics straight up. That's enough on the intro, chris, we're going to get into it. 30 minutes lined up, three questions, 10 minutes a piece. Start the clock, adam. Now, all right, here we go. Should local churches, regardless of size, chris, look to plant churches? Why, or why not?
Speaker 3:I would say absolutely yes, with some caveats, to say that planting a church, or for churches of certain size, certain demographics, certain communities, it may not be as simple as just that church planting a church, but I think all churches should be involved in planting churches so you could be a part of a network that's planting churches. You could be, in our case, bethel, who's far from a large church but is inviting groups from other language groups to come and launch new missions under our umbrella. That's church planting activities. It could be two churches, smaller churches, in a community deciding that we're going to merge and plant something new out of the two smaller churches so that community deciding that we're going to merge and plant something new out of the two smaller churches so that we can have a bigger kingdom impact. But I feel that every church could be involved or should be involved in the planting new ministries, launching new gospel-centered gospel proclamational word and sacrament ministries. I don't think that size is an excuse not to just what it looks like may look different based on your size and context.
Speaker 2:I think that's really good. Everybody can play in the church planning game. And it's not a game. Eternity is at stake here. And what would you say to someone who says we don't need churches, we have plenty. We should focus more on revitalization rather than church planning. What would you say to that brother or sister?
Speaker 3:where revitalization makes more sense. But I would say I hate conversations or questions like that. That's an either or it's a both and, like my context is more revitalization, but I think you can use church planting resources and ideas and concepts for revitalization. But there are lots of places in the country and in the world that have no churches or places that are booming suburbs. There's places in Dallas that are re-gentrifying and the current churches that are there aren't meeting that community. So I hate when we pit those two against each other. Like I think the kingdom is about revitalization and church planting, so it's not an either or, and this is a little bit probably a precursor to a future question, but I think that a lot of times scarcity mentality can can come into play here.
Speaker 3:In my, in my circuit, we've had several conversations about planting churches east out of Dallas in the communities that don't have a Lutheran or LCMS presence or just that are growing and faster than churches are being planted. And we reached out to several churches across two or three different circuits about planting a church in a town called Greenville, greenville, texas, and several of them said we couldn't. You know, churches of smaller churches like our best, our elder, our best leaders are in that town already. We cannot possibly give them up for this. So it's, you know that's a scarcity mentality, that you know that's kind of getting in the way of the idea of church planting. And the reality is OK, you may be comfortable driving from Greenville to the next town over 20 miles over, but that's not really viable for reaching your neighbors, that's not really viable for. So I think we need both the short answer.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I agree. What creative expressions of church planning have you seen? Because I think a lot of times we think you have to have a building, maybe $500,000. You better have a planter who's subsidized by X network district whatever over X amount of years. I don't know that that's always the case that we need. I think we always need leaders, but a lot of money and a big building. I don't know if that's the future or that's exclusively the future. I think some ministries are going to be hardwired toward that kind of large launch model with the critical mass of 100, 200 people, with the building, with ascending church that's invested heavily in that. I'm not dismissing that at all. The ARC network of churches have actually leaned into that with quite a bit of success right now. But I don't know that that's the entirety of creative church planting expression. Say more about that, chris.
Speaker 3:Yeah, In my context, in my experience I would say I've leaned on a couple, three that in my immediate context, like right here at Bethel in East Dallas, we have three worshiping communities Well, actually five total. We have a family chapel service targeting our preschool families, we have two English services on a Sunday morning, a service in Kenyawanda, which is an African dialect, and service in Spanish. And so that's creative, saying we've got this building, let's more fully utilize it for different expressions of worship, both in language and style. So I think that's and that's. We're still paying for one building, right. So that's an effective way to do that. And there's a lot of that happening here in North Texas.
Speaker 3:I think what Travis Hartchin is doing in the kind of suburban which is to get four or five churches to pull together to let's not just plant one but let's plant several over a period of time. I think I have a friend up in Allen, Texas, who's planting a church, that's planting a second pastor, like the Timothy pastor of a church plant, and they're meeting in an art gallery, you know so that, and that's being given to them and they have about 40, 50 people. So I think what's needed is creativity. What's needed is is, is to say, you know, it could be a home church of 10 people. It could be. You know, I think if we're just saying it's got to have this, it's got to have a full-time pastor, it's got to have, you know, a worship leader, it's got to have a band and smoke machines and 400 people to launch, Now there's some context where that's probably going to be the most effective way to do it, but you're not going to get the critical mass you need in new churches just having one approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good. We're launching our first micro church, um in Alpine, arizona that just launched. This is at a Christ Greenfield now. Uh, was there this past week and it's kind of a creative expression. They have no, they have an elder um who's in that area living full time. But the community booms in the summer months, you know, from May through October, as people flee the valley, but there's no churches there.
Speaker 2:And this guy has 11 acres of land and a barn slash garage that he turned half of his garage into a worship center, a very traditional looking seats, about 50 people. They actually got this is Alpine Cowboy Church because they're reaching a lot of cowboys there and they got a $5,000 grant from our district and then a whole bunch of our pastors and vicars are rotating up there for respite, some relaxation, to get out of the heat, and then also leading in Word and Sacraments on the Sundays and they're only meeting every other week. Eventually I think they'll get to every week. They may end up building a building on that land if the Lord gives growth, but at the very least for between 20 to 50 people. I actually told one of the sweet lady leaders there. Judy Hickox is her name. I told her hey, judy, the median size church in the LCMS is 55. And she goes, I'm going to post that up and she says we're going to be 55 by October, reaching 55 people by October.
Speaker 2:So there's so many expressions, especially if a congregation like ours praise God, has a upward draft of men for the pastoral office and women and men in leadership roles who were saying hey, I'm willing to explore things. And what I have to say too is we're kind of coming down the homestretch of the church planning. There's a lot of research shout out to Lyman Stone in a recent interview we had with him on the Lutheran Religious Life Survey. There was a lot of research that says one of the growing demographics of adult converts in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod are those who are men, who are younger, in their 20s and 30s and love traditional liturgical worship.
Speaker 2:Praise be to God If that's a church plant that you reach that meets the felt need of Gen Z, who has this desire for heightened spiritual. You know the mysteries of God that are expressed in a more traditional like super, super, smells and bells type of worship. Praise me to God. I think all different types of styles and focuses of churches are needed right now to reach all types of people. Any final comments on the church planting conversation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, my final comment on that is I feel like the next generation of church planting is going to be not so much in a church building. So I think the barn idea we're partnering with a local community space for a Monday night prayer group. It's got about eight people right now, but I can see that becoming a micro church. Tony, one of the guys that's going through Luther House right now is kind of leading that, co-leading that with me and a couple other people. I just feel like our dependence on church buildings to have churches in is it's an over-dependence and that's not what the early church had. And if you're going to look at an average, you know, like you said, the medium church in the LCMS being 55, there's a lot of people's homes, there's a lot of public spaces that can hold 55 people. We don't need big churches for that.
Speaker 2:Dude, we hit it right on the dot pretty much Maybe went over by like three, four seconds on that one. That was really good, all right cool. Second topic how closely connected to future pastor formation should current local pastors be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know this is a big topic for both of us. I feel a lot more than they currently are, at least in our church body. But I feel just it's kind of again a both and I think we need guys thinking in that theological, deep formation way that aren't tied to the day-to-day grind that we're going through. They're going to look at it differently. But then I think they need guys like us that are saying this is what we need. And I feel like I listened a little bit to the previous podcast with Dr Kieschnick and I think so much innovation happened when I was first kind of shifting from DCE to pastoral ministry with EIT and Center for Hispanic Studies and even SMP where they were really within our group and I think pastors were more involved in those conversations and what do we want the end product to look like? And I feel like we did some really innovative, cool stuff that now people are saying, well, we don't want that anymore or we don't want as much of that anymore. So I feel like you know the types of things. I think we're asking different questions and I think it does dovetail from the previous conversation.
Speaker 3:What's needed to serve a congregation of 50 or less people. That's accepted. We're going to be a super mission-minded church of 50 people and if it grows it grows, if not it's not. What's needed in that context is not what we're producing out of, out of and not just the LCMS out of most residential seminary programs across the board that the guys that are coming out of that aren't thinking about bivocational, they're not thinking about co-vocational, they're not thinking about what does it mean to operate out of a movie theater or out of this or out of that? By the most part they kind of want to serve the system and there's need for that. Those positions are needed out there and certainly for raising up theologians and seminary professors and things like that. All of that is needed. But I think we're getting to the point now where even our seminaries are and again this is not a uniquely LCMS problem, but seminaries across at least American Christianity are producing a product that our churches and our communities don't necessarily need anymore, or at least need at the same level they once needed.
Speaker 2:That's good. You know you replicate who you are. You know you replicate who you are and pastors replicate. Pastors follow in the footsteps of a professor that they beloved, either in systematic or whatever one of the traditions, and that's just a normal thing. You've spent a lot of time with this person, you love their work and you want to do what they do, and I feel like one of the adaptive leadership models or metaphors is really, really helpful is the balcony and the dance floor.
Speaker 2:The balcony and the dance floor, and you could look at the academics and those that are in synodical leadership roles. Their primary role is to look, hopefully objectively, from the balcony. Say, I see this going on here in this pocket and this going on here, and I can kind of connect a greater narrative that helps those of us on the dance floor dance well, but for that to happen, folks who are on the dance floor have to be invited in, and that would be parish pastors, so those that are above it, synodical leaders and I don't know. And it's a complex dance, to be to be sure, it's just. It's the same dance, though that takes place at the local level with a pastor, and Am I leading from the balcony?
Speaker 2:Do I ever go to the balcony to see the bigger picture of the system, the culture that's taking place within my congregation? Or am I so enmeshed in Grandma Schmittke's struggles with some worship or sanctuary changes that took place, or whatever? Am I so enmeshed in that that I can't see the bigger picture of what God is doing? We always must have a foot in the balcony. We're Gumby here. It's a weird image, but we're stretching from the balcony down to the dance floor. That is the call of leadership, no matter where you happen to be in the institution or in the local church. Any thoughts there, Chris?
Speaker 3:No, I totally agree and I feel that we need each other ultimately for the system to work well. Well, that we need the guys thinking at that higher level, that are that are you know, figuring out the theological implications of all these things that are happening, that are that are and I've been blessed to in my theological journey to you know, to go to both lutheran and non-lutheran seminaries and and I've learned a lot of things from guys way smarter than me and I'm glad to have that experience. But they need us. They need us to say what do you need? And I feel like I've been blessed a little bit. Just right now I'm mentoring two guys that are going through EIIT and Center for Semantic Studies, that are serving as thinkers here at Bethel, and then one guy who's just started some classes with Luther House and I feel like I'm I think on those programs they're still asking what do you need? How is it going? I was up at St Louis for the multi-ethnic symposium and at least in those two programs they were saying hey, how is it going with Walker, how is it going with Jonas? So I feel like in those, at least in that area, we're still doing a pretty good job of asking those questions, at least at some level.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I feel like we we need a. It needs to be a dialogue, it needs to be a a you know and understanding. Enough humility for me to say I don't know all the things that are dealing with it, like my district president, or that the seminary professors or the you knowary professors or the leaders at that level are having to face or having to deal with. So I need to have some humility in approaching them. But then they need to have some humility in approaching us to say is we're far enough removed from the parish that we don't really know what you're seeing and what you're needing and how to. At least in my case, you're needing and how to. At least in my case, I don't think too many people in the Synodical office would have a clue as to how to lead a congregation that has worship in three different languages, trying to be one Lutheran congregation, and what's needed to lead that.
Speaker 2:They need to listen to you and vice versa. So I've often said the academic institutional model isn't found in the New Testament and if you look at the history of theological formation, it's not until the monastic movement really gets going in this 6th, 7th, 8th century that we have anything resembling our residential education programs that we have today. That being said, maybe I would counter something I thought in the past, in that who was the chief academic theologian of the early church? At least history has said Paul. He's the president, you would say, or the chief service coordinator. Going back to our LCMC folks, like he's boots on the ground, though he's connecting all of these dots from the Old Testament to right now and helping navigate, like mega, trying to make it work in the first, second, third century.
Speaker 2:These men were deep academics, but here's the reality. Like they were tethered to the local church, deeply relationally connected, right. So when Paul writes, check the first part and the end part of, like all of his letters. When Paul writes, check the first part and the end part of, like all of his letters, what you'll find is most often, besides Galatians, gratitude for the partnership in the gospel, this is Philippians. And then, at the end, I know all of these people. I'm in a network and I recognize I'm nothing. I'm the chief of sinners, especially if I'm not connected to Christ and community and those who are boots on the ground in these respective places where the gospel has gone forward and the Holy Spirit has been at work and churches have been planted. Apart from that man, I'm up a crick, we're up a crick without a paddle, but I must trust, release and stay connected, especially with theological formation. So the main thing stays, the main thing which is Christ in him, crucified and resurrected from the dead, and the proclamation of the gospel. Anything more to add to that.
Speaker 3:No and yeah, I would say that. You know, and Paul gave his credentials Right. I studied under this guy, I did this.
Speaker 2:I was the Pharisees of Pharisees he went through the most rigorous program you could possibly go through in his day.
Speaker 3:And isn't he right that? The New Testament scholar you know Anglican guy talks a lot about that. The New Testament scholar you know Anglican guy talks a lot about that, in that when he was able to serve in the office of bishop he could, he was actually serving at a local parish and also being a theologian. And I think maybe the closest to that is kind of what you and I are doing with Luther House is we're faculty mentors, so we we've got a little bit of skin in the academia game.
Speaker 2:It's like 10% of what I mean, it's a small percentage of what we do, but at least we're there, right, but we're also serving a church and I and I feel like I think if, if more seminary professors were involved at least part time on a staff at a church, we might be better served. But we don't have that's, that's beyond our pay grade. Yeah, we don't have, that's beyond our pay grade. Yeah, nonetheless, we can give, we can have influence and leadership. Yeah, I think we need one another, both at the academic level and at the local level. We went a little bit over on that one, I knew we would. You talked pastoral formation. We're going to get going. All right, let's dig into LCMS leadership. What do you think is the deepest core issue that's keeping the LCMS? And when I'm not talking just President Harrison or anybody in the council of presidents per se, I'm asking you to get to 30,000 feet kind of the entire macro perspective of the LCMS right now. Deepest core issue that's keeping us from casting a vision for growth. What is it?
Speaker 3:The cynic in me says that the deepest core issue is that the LCMS right now doesn't want a vision for growth because we value institutionally purity and getting it right over growth. That's not putting the best construction on things.
Speaker 2:So I would Let me push back on that a little bit. What would you say to someone who says well, if you miss on the clarity of the gospel, christ crucified for you by faith, if you miss on that, you could end up making a whole bunch of heathens. It's not the church that you're actually a part of. You're compromising for the sake of growth and you're moving right past the pure preaching of the gospel into the heart and ears of sinners. What would you say to that brother?
Speaker 3:I would say in the history of the church. We've never, we've never completely gotten that right. We've always lived in that paradox, you know, and I think we, we do the best we can and I think we, we, we, we definitely hold that standard up. But I also think the Holy Spirit works, how the Holy Spirit works, and I think people in even places where the doctrine is being taught really badly are still coming to Jesus. So I and I'm not saying we should promote that, I'm just saying that that we're, we're putting a damper on the Holy spirit when I don't I don't think it's ever been pure, because my, my ego gets in the way of preaching pure doctrine, because I'm always, and everyone else's does. I would love to say that I preach and teach and live pure doctrine. I don't Because I'm a sinful, flawed human being. Some of the things I've said to people, I look back and say but the Holy Spirit still translates that and still gets it to where it needs to go. Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure God works through means. Yeah, for sure God works through means. Yeah, sinful, broken, flawed means. And yet I'm going to give you some credit, knowing the ministry, or give the Holy Spirit some credit. You still, pastor, chris Holder, preach law and gospel, right. You still bring the law to those that are living in self-righteousness and for the wounded, broken, contrite, repentant sinner. You preach christ crucified for you forgiveness of sins, life and salvation.
Speaker 2:Like I hope we can agree, like that is pure doctrine. Christ, simple done. He's done it all for for you. He's the center point of all of human history. It's his Holy Spirit that leads us to profess Christ, that moves through the church to keep us centered in the one true Christian and apostolic faith. So in so far as there's a purity conversation, I think we're pure because Christ has made us pure. He's made our lips I'm thinking Isaiah right now. He's come and touched our lips, you know, anointed our lips so we can talk about Christ and give the hope of the resurrection on the last day. So if you want to talk purity toward that end, christ and him crucified all day long man, let's go right.
Speaker 3:Right, and I guess the point I'm saying is I don't know that the LCMS, across the board there's pockets of it. I think my district, your district, there are pockets where that's not the case, but I don't think across the board Senate Inc. Whatever you want to say, I don't think growth is a priority and if it's not a priority it's not going to happen. So what's triggering it? I think it's fear. I think we're afraid of getting it wrong. I think we're afraid of losing our significance in the culture. I think we're afraid that if we open up our institutions, our schools or whatever to non-Christians or non-Lutherans, that that's going to corrupt the system. I think we're afraid of asking the hard questions about how do we serve a church of 55 people, how do we serve a denomination where half our congregations aren't big enough to sustain a full-time pastor? I think we're afraid to ask some of those questions.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of it is driven by fear and I think the result of that fear has become a scarcity mentality. So we have a scarcity mentality. We got to hold on to what we got as the LCMS. We got to hold on to what we got with our schools and our seminaries, and if they're not getting on board, then we're okay, letting them go. We're going to hold on to the ones that are going to get on board and just kind of maintain what we can maintain, when I think what we need is an abundance mentality. Right, we need to not be afraid. We need to say that you know, we follow the God, you know a thousand, you know cattle on a thousand hills and all that. And they say that it's not, as we don't have. The problem is not enough resources. The problem is not maybe not enough faith, not enough courage, not enough belief, not enough trust, not enough boldness, not enough belief, not enough trust, not enough boldness.
Speaker 3:So I think I think we have a spirit of fear in the LCMS and I think we have a spirit of fear in a lot of American Christianity right now and it's it's leading to some scary stuff like the, you know, christian nationalism and things like that. That it's it's causing us to lose our focus on making disciples, living out the Great Commission and being bold with what we have and trusting God to bless it, to multiply it, bringing word and sacrament to people in desperate need of it.
Speaker 2:For sure, man. I would love to see more district presidents, vice presidents and our synodical president come together we have a lot of presidents and come together around a shared vision. I'll just give you some ideas on churches revitalized churches, started churches, growing Churches started Churches growing, leaders developed, leaders deployed. There's a lot of simple metrics growth of the denomination. I don't think we should be afraid to say this is where we're at Two million members I don't know somewhere around there and this is where we're going to be.
Speaker 2:There's so much research I don't know if anybody listening to this has any kind of influence in any of those rooms, but there's a ridiculous amount of sociology research, leadership research that says vision really, really matters the healthiest businesses, organizations, churches, et cetera unless there's a leader and a leadership team and we've got all the infrastructure and the guts for this type of a team nationally, to be sure unless there is a vision, though that's compelling, and then, as it moves to the grassroots, there's collaboration and accountability two sides of the same coin you don't have true collaboration unless you have accountability. So one of my big questions around accountability is what sort of conversations are we having at the LCMS board of director meetings? I don't know. I don't know either, but based on what I read and see, I don't know that many of them are honestly identifying the struggles, the gaps and creatively looking to problem solve toward the end of starting churches to start churches revitalization and creatively looking to problem solve toward the end of starting churches to start churches revitalization, et cetera.
Speaker 2:I don't know that that. So I don't know that accountability. So therefore, the trust that's necessary between those that are in those positions and those of us who are at the grassroots just trying to be faithful in our context, trust has eroded because I don't even know the accountability mechanisms that are there and I guess they could say I've been reflecting on this, I guess it's synony and convention, it's the charge that comes out of synony and convention. But unless that's like act, there's an active communication about what we've done between the three years of like people, tim puts the worst construction on silence. Right, when I don't hear like what are we doing toward the church worker shortage or whatever. Right, when I don't hear like what are we doing toward the church worker shortage or whatever. And then people are put in certain categories, put in certain camps and not brought into the conversation. Because you say things that are and it's not just me, it's many people, I just say things a little bit more publicly we're going to put the worst construction on things. So it is leadership's role to cast vision, build collaboration, specifically with people that may have a diverse opinion, live in a different context than you. Be very transparent about the accountability mechanisms that exist, that is huge. And then they realize if you're working in a district or you want to get guys like me and gals like me like, fired up, and then you look at us and say you know what the work that you do and I think I'll be charitable on this for sure the work that you do has eternal significance.
Speaker 2:The struggles that you're walking through and I'm going to give a shout out to president Harrison. I think he had many different points in his, in his tenure as an article president, and it's that. I know it's hard, I know that you're doing the best you can. I want you to know we see you, we love you and we care for you and we're praying for you. Keep running, keep running. But if you don't have the vision and you don't have the accountability and collaboration that takes place especially among diverse groups of people, then those words are even sometimes not received in the best way as intended. Any thoughts there? We've burst by 10 minutes, by the way, but it's all right, we're closing with a flurry. Here we go Now.
Speaker 3:I guess one area where I see the greatest disconnect right now is I mean, back to this, and I think you keep going back to it and I keep going back to it is that the average congregation or the mean congregation, if over half the congregations in our church body are 55 or smaller, then we need to be collaborating to figure out what kind of pastor, what kind of what does a church of 55 or smaller need in pastoral leadership?
Speaker 3:And so if we were asking that question, I think we'd get a lot different than I was at a conference recently where the call to serve initiative and I support the call to serve initiative at a certain level, but their, their approach is to go after 14, 15 year old kids.
Speaker 3:Now and I had a conversation with the guy who goes really this is just about promote recruiting people to go into the residential programs that are two seminaries. That just seems like a disconnect to me, because I don't think the average person coming out of a residential program the seminary is is going to want to serve a congregation of 55 or less, or maybe for four or five years until they get their doctorate or whatever, but that they're not going to want to sit there and stick because they they're going to have an expectation of being supported at a certain level. So and again, why aren't we saying and then you bring this up a lot, you know, let's identify leaders at those churches and how can we equip them? And the call to serve isn't even so. We're asking a question over here and then they're producing an answer over here and there's some disconnect and that's just one example.
Speaker 3:But yeah, let's go so it's going to have to be done from grassroots, because the top-down approach to this isn't. I mean, my fear is, and that my fear is, and that is they're going to get all these guys excited about seminary. They're going to, they're going to get them through the program, and then there's not gonna be enough churches that can support them, and then there's just going to be a big. We're going to invest all these resources into producing people to to do a job that's no longer needed, or at least no longer needed at the same level.
Speaker 2:Let's think about now on the dance floor, and let's also think about from the balcony perspective, from generation to generation, what it's going to take. And I do know we're going to need those that are in the higher levels of leadership, hopefully, who have the humility to engage with those of us down at the grassroots today. This is not a theological conversation. We've not had any kind of battle over wine, women or song or anything like that man. I can agree on so many things as it relates to that, if anybody. I think the caricature of this conversation is well, they've kind of sold out to the liberal left. You know these guys. They're gone all woke and things that couldn't be any further from the truth.
Speaker 2:The more we talk about Lutheran leadership, development connected to Luther House and others, the more robustly Orthodox Lutheran we become. Our Lutheran vocabulary has just broadened. It's an awesome thing to be a part of, especially when you're rooted in a local congregation that loves when you learn good Lutheran theology and also will lovingly correct you when you become a Pharisee, when you lead with the law without the right words. We need one another. The local church needs the institution, the institution needs the local church. So it's so much fun to hang out. We blew way past the 10 minute on that mark, though, chris, but how can people connect with you, bro, if they'd like?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm actually on the ULC page now as as one of the one of the leaders um partner with Luther house. The easiest way to get ahold of me is through Bethel Lutheran church in Dallas, bethel dallasorg, or pastor Chris at Bethel dallasorg is the part of the easiest way to find me.
Speaker 2:Sweet. We'll be back next Friday with another Lead Time Hot Topic Friday Sharing is caring and thanks for going on this journey to humbly learn with us and praying for a new day in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks, Chris, Peace out.
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